← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
"An act of historic bravery"
00:48:55
Nicolle Wallace on thousands of people in Minneapolis braving a wind chill of -20 degrees as part of a coordinated day of peaceful action.
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- [00:00]
Chris Hayes
Try Angel Soft for your tushy.
- [00:03]
Jennika Day
It's made by Angels Soft and Strong.
- [00:06]
Nicole Wallace
Budget friendly.
- [00:08]
Michelle Norris
The choice is simple.
- [00:11]
Alex Tabitz
Pick up a pack today.
- [00:12]
Nicole Wallace
Angel Soft.
- [00:13]
Michelle Norris
Soft and strong. Simple.
- [00:16]
Chris Hayes
Hey everyone, it's Chris Hayes.
- [00:17]
Tim Miller
This week on my podcast, why is this Happening?
- [00:19]
Chris Hayes
Ms. Now senior political and national reporter.
- [00:22]
Tim Miller
Jacob Soboroff on rebuilding Los Angeles.
- [00:24]
Chris Hayes
When I think about how is it going, I think it's this weird cognitive dissonance. It's these neighborhoods are no longer there. You drive through them and it is one big open construction site on two separate sides of la. But in a way, the humanity that has sort of, as always, happens in these disasters. Not to be cheesy about it, because now I've experienced that. I'm not just covering it. It really is a unifying, amazing thing. We all went through this collective trauma together in some way.
- [00:46]
Tim Miller
That's this week on why is this Happening? Search for why is this Happening? Wherever you're listening right now and follow.
- [01:00]
Nicole Wallace
Hi there, everyone. It's four o' clock in New York. One year and three after Donald Trump's second inauguration. He is receiving historically low approval ratings from the American public on every single solitary issue that once provided him a political edge. Despite that incontrovertible fact, we live in a country where nearly every single elite and powerful sector of our society, from big and fancy law firms to the most prestigious universities to the most successful tech companies, the most prestigious international big banks and media companies have lined up either behind Donald Trump or they've capitulated to his threats and demands. That tragic reality makes today's events and brewing drama in the city of Minneapolis an act of historic bravery. Take a look at this. These are images of an American city rising up in protest against Donald Trump and the brutality and cruelty of his administration. Thousands of people are braving a windchill of minus 20 degrees as part of a coordinated day of peaceful action. This video is from earlier today, protesters were arrested as they formed a line outside of a terminal at Minneapolis airport. The Minneapolis Star Tribune reports that the group consisted largely of faith leaders. You can hear them singing hymns as they were arrested. Today's protests include the local Minneapolis business community as well, which is also notable. The New York Times reported, no work, no shopping, no dining out. Hundreds of businesses across Minnesota were expected to close and many people vowed to pause everyday activities on Friday as part of a general strike against the Trump administration's immigration crackdown. Parts of the city seem like a ghost town Friday morning, with many cafes and local coffee chains shuttered. Signs posted in their Windows expressing solidarity with the strike. Some signs read, quote, we stand with our Somali neighbors. Quote, ICE out of Minnesota. Another read, quote does ICE make you sick? Call out of work, end quote. Now this action is happening just three days after the detention of a five year old boy named Liam Ramos. As we reported here yesterday, Liam. School officials say that federal agents use Liam as quote, bait, getting five year old Liam Ramos to knock on the front door of his own house so that ICE could go inside and arrest other people in his home. These images have shocked the people of Minneapolis and many people outside of Minneapolis all across the country and I'm sure around the world. They've also put the administration on the defensive. Border patrol commander Gregory Bevino has blamed five year old Liam Ramos family for the incident. When Greg was asked if he had any moral, legal or ethical qualms about detaining a five year old child, he said this. I didn't detain a 5 year old.
- [04:09]
Tim Miller
And we're going to continue with that law enforcement mission. Oftentimes you will see violent illegal aliens.
- [04:16]
Nicole Wallace
That perhaps do have families and those.
- [04:20]
Tim Miller
Violent criminal illegal aliens are going to be arrested. I've got no qualms about making America.
- [04:26]
Nicole Wallace
A safer place when we arrest those illegal aliens. There's no evidence that's been provided to anyone that 5 year old Liam Ramos family was quote violent.
- [04:39]
Michelle Norris
And.
- [04:41]
Nicole Wallace
Liam Ramos and his father, both of whom are actually here legally on asylum claims, are currently at a detention center in Texas. DHS also claims that Liam's mother would not take him in, which is a claim that officials on the ground in Minneapolis dispute. Watch.
- [05:01]
Michelle Norris
As I got out of my car and came around the corner I heard what are you doing? Don't take the child. His mom, like there are people here.
- [05:09]
Nicole Wallace
That can take him.
- [05:10]
Michelle Norris
There was another adult who lived in the home that was there saying I will take the child, I will take the child. Somebody else was yelling, they saw that.
- [05:20]
Nicole Wallace
I was there and said school is.
- [05:22]
Michelle Norris
Here, they can take the child, you don't have to take them. And there was ample opportunity to be.
- [05:30]
Nicole Wallace
Able to safely hand that child off to adults.
- [05:34]
Michelle Norris
And mom, mom was there. She saw again.
- [05:40]
Nicole Wallace
According to reporting in the New York Times, five year old Liam Ramos father has no criminal record. DHS doesn't claim that five year old Liam Ramos father has a criminal record either. Adding to the questions about why this even happened. Why does this get put in motion? Why is a 5 year old pushed in front of his own front door? Incidents like these and images like these, a five year old Liam Ramos with a bunny hat on an oversized Spiderman backpack separated from his family, is fueling a wake up call. A backlash to ICE and the Trump administration's brutal tactics. It's not just in Minneapolis. It's happening all around our country. A brand new poll in the New York Times shows that 61% of all Americans think that ICE's tactics have gone too far. That includes almost a fifth of Republican voters. 36% of Americans approve of how ICE is doing its job. The backlash to the Trump administration's brutal deportation tactics leading to a general strike and protests in the streets of Minneapolis is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters in front. Minneapolis native senior contributing editor Michelle Norris is back. Also joining us, political analyst, host of the Bulwark podcast. Tim Miller is back with us. With me at the table, host of Politics Nation. The Reverend Al Sharpton is here. He's also the president of the National Action Network who has ministers on the ground participating and supporting today's protests and protesters, and former deputy, former attorney for the Democracy Project at the Brennan center for justice at New York University School of Law. James Sample is back with us. He's currently a law professor at Hofstra University. I want to start, though, with our reporter on the ground in Minneapolis, Alex Tabitz, back with us. Alex, tell us what's happening.
- [07:31]
Alex Tabitz
Well, Nicole, you described the city of Minneapolis this morning as a ghost town as this state participates in this economic blackout. Well, look around. Right now it is anything but a ghost town. Thousands and thousands of people out to protest, demanding ice gets out despite the fact that it is negative 9 degrees here. Nicole, that is frostbite temperature. And I want to introduce you to one of these tough cookies right now, Jennika Day. Jennika, why are you out here? Why is it so important for you to be out here despite these frigid conditions?
- [08:10]
Jennika Day
Well, first off, this is balmy. This is nothing. Grew up in Minnesota, so I think a lot of people would say the same thing. This is warm. But we're here for community. We're here to stand up for our neighbors. There are neighbors right now that can't leave the house. They can't go to their jobs. They can't even pay rent. They can't buy their groceries. So we can be out here protesting. We can be out here buying groceries for them. So this is why we're out here. This is why you see thousands of people. This is not a ghost town. We are out here for community. This is Minnesota.
- [08:42]
Alex Tabitz
And Jenica, you mentioned the community. The community's been through so much in the last seven weeks, from the president calling the smell like diaspora garbage, to launching this immigration crackdown, to the shooting and the killing of Renee Goode. And now we have this little boy, Liam Ramos, five years old, detained. I mean, how does it feel to be a citizen in Minneapolis, a Minnesotan right now with all of this happening right now?
- [09:08]
Jennika Day
You know, you're angry, right? But you're also, we're a resilient community. From George Floyd to Annunciation, we've been through it and we are a resilient community. We're angry, but this is what we do when we're angry. We show up. We show up for community.
- [09:28]
Alex Tabitz
Thank you so much, Jenica. I really appreciate it. And Nicole, that's so true. They aren't just showing up in the streets, they're showing up in their cars. They're showing up with the whistles. They're showing up to continue to do the ice, observing the very same work that Nicole Good did to keep community members safe as ICE and Border Patrol continues to tear through the Twin Cities. Nicole?
- [09:52]
Nicole Wallace
Alex, I'll let you, you know, thaw out your hands and face for a second, but I need more of that. So please, wherever you, I won't put you on the spot, but please go catch up with some more of those folks. It's just, it's incredible. I mean, Michelle Norris, this is reporting that you brought us when you went back to, you know, your stomping grounds and your hometown. But this is the only sort of place where we as a country are meeting the moment. And it is the people, the people showing up for each other.
- [10:30]
Michelle Norris
I don't know if it's the only place where people are meeting the moment, but it is place where we're certainly seeing it in numbers that we've not seen anywhere else. And you know, Minnesotans are hardy stock and you see that in the way they're willing to brave the cold, but also the way that they're willing to brave what they're calling an ice storm in their city. I want to call attention to a couple of things that you've been talking about. The five year old Liam, who was taken with his father. You know, there's another case that's getting less attention with an even younger child, a 2 year old who was with her father, Elvis Echeveria, in Powderhorn park yesterday. They were apprehended, father and daughter, both like Liam and his father, seeking asylum in this country. Taken by ICE immigration officials, the family filed a motion for the child to be returned. They were successful. After filing that emergency motion, the judge ruled at about 8pm and 20 minutes later, the family and the lawyers discovered that that child, who was picked up that morning, had already been put on a commercial flight and was already in Texas, already gone. And so that's, you know, a case that is not getting the same kind of attention. You know, sometimes, Nicole, a story is best understood in the details. And there are some details of this story that I think people need to understand. Beyond the pictures of the mass protests and the whistles, there are parents who are now sending their children with what are called DPOA orders for the audience. They may not know what that means, but that's a delegation of parental authority. And it used to just be immigrant parents that are doing this, but now several of the people who are ICE monitors are sending their children to school with these orders so that if they are apprehended during the day, that the teacher or someone else that they've designated can take care of that child if they are abandoned because a parent is picked up. You know, the details of these stories are incredible. There are people, the woman that Alex has talked to who's delivering food, some of the people who are working with the food banks to deliver food now, this is incredible, have been told not to write the address where they're making the delivery on any kind of piece of paper that could be picked up by ICE if they are apprehended, not to keep it in their phones, and if they do have to write it on a piece of paper to be ready to swallow that piece of paper or dunk it in a. In some hot water that's kept in a cup in their cup holder so that ICE officials will not be able to know where they're going if they're delivering food to immigrant families who are too afraid to go outside. And I'm just going to leave you with one other detail that was shared with me that really touched me. The picture of that little boy with the blue bunny hat that you referenced has pierced America's consciousness in an interesting way. But there was something that a children's book author that I know pointed out to me. Spends a lot of time with kids. And, you know, that little boy's hat has these strings that hang down, and those strings apparently have, like, a little thing inside them where if you pull or squeeze them, the ears sort of jump up. And it just was such a sad reminder of how little he was and how proud he probably was to have that hat. His Spider man backpack. He was taken care of by people who loved him. And so this reminds us that whatever is happening in Minneapolis is not about fraud because they'd be going after financiers and accountants if that was the case. It's not about people who are illegal because they're taking people who are going through the process, who are asylum seekers or who are in some way going through the legal process. It's not about people who aren't working or aren't contributing to society because they're going after them at their place of work. And it's not about making people safe because the people who are acting as federal immigration agents who should be trained on how to de escalate situations, are actually becoming more and more aggressive in the way that they're carrying out their duties.
- [14:30]
Nicole Wallace
Michelle, how did the two year old get to Texas and where is the two year old now?
- [14:37]
Michelle Norris
One of the two detention centers. The lawyers are trying to figure that out. This has been reported in the Foreign Tribune. Families in Powderhorn are trying to take care of the Powderhorn park, which is near where they were apprehended, are trying to take care of the remaining family members. It's been very difficult in many of these cases to figure out exactly where the families are landing because the chain of command issues. Normally when someone is apprehended, there are databases or there's some way for the lawyers to at least figure out where. If it was a legal case, a criminal case, where a defendant is in this case, it's information that is often passed on, sometimes by happenstance by people who are in the system who are showing a bit of compassion and trying to show where the families are or because the families have the resources or are able to work with legal aid or some of the other immigration lawyers that are trying to work with the families to figure that out. Apparently the father and daughter, they think are in the same location, but they were picked up in the morning and by that evening they were already out of the state of Minnesota and sent to Texas.
- [15:41]
Nicole Wallace
Tim Miller, your thoughts on what we're seeing, what's unfolding?
- [15:49]
Chris Hayes
Yeah, two things come to mind. Just first, it's something we've talked about before, Nicole, but I just think it's worth emphasizing, which is just the remarkable kind of courage and determination of the people in the streets of Minneapolis and that freezing cold weather pretending like it's balmy, you know, in contrast to the cowardness of the leaders, you know, the cowardness of Is there a single. I'm sure there's one. But Is there a single CEO that has spoken out about this? You know, is there a single person of, you know, of real means that has, that has been willing to sacrifice something? You know, it's just a lot of folks and it's not just. And this protest is a stark example of it. But you know, my colleague Jonathan last wrote about this in the, in the, in the bulwark today is the reporting from people on the ground. You get to Minnesota, one of, one of our other colleagues is there and it's like this is happening all over town. Like you're bumping into people with whistles, you're bumping into people with, with phones. And so just the citizen pushback here in Minneapolis and elsewhere has been truly like remarkable and a striking contrast with our elites. The other thing I just think that we should mention here is this is still going on other places and there's been a big surge in Maine as well. And I think that that to Michel's point, like belies the idea that this is about the fraud in Minnesota or somewhere in particular. And I just, about an hour ago spoke to a guy, Ben Bozeman in Maine, who just again was just a man on the street, happened to catch it when a group of ICPB agents that went after, and it's his word, kidnapped what turned out to be a correctional officer who was an immigrant but was here through the legal process. And you know, a bunch of ICE agents jumped out and grabbed him. We don't know where the guy is. His wife is at home pregnant. This man I interviewed, Ben Bozeman, had like brought his car home to his wife because they just left it there on the street in Maine. And the local sheriff in Maine did a press conference recently or just, just today where he said, look, our, this correction officer wasn't doing anything wrong. Like this is totally wrong. This is bad police work, what ICE and federal agents are doing. So you know, while there's this big surge of attention in Minneapolis, I just think it's worth mentioning that this is continuing to happen in other places and as they get more funding, you know, they're going to have more agents to cause havoc in more places around the country.
- [18:07]
Nicole Wallace
France.
- [18:08]
Al Sharpton
I think that one of the things that we, two things we should really note is that as we see the thousands that are in the street and our national field director, Nash Action that works when talking to Reverend Russell Chavez, Russell the Friendship Baptist there in the streets, the faith leaders, some getting arrested and all of it non violent in sub zero weather standing together. And I Think the other thing is that the only violence that caused death that we've seen is the killing of Renee Good. You know, they've tried to depict these protesters, demonstrators, those of us around the country that support them, as the violent one, the unarmed woman. Good is the only victim. In all the last two weeks, no one has harmed an ICE officer. No one has taken a shot that we know of. So I think that at some point, the morality of the country is kicking in, which is indicated in the polls, saying to this president, we don't like what you're doing. He promised to get rid of violent criminals and violent people that come across the border. He didn't say he was going to in some ways transition our law enforcement to be violent and do acts that could be criminal. We don't know, because they're only going to investigate themselves. They won't even let the state officials investigate. And I think that what we're seeing is that the American people have far more moral fiber and moral power than the government that's supposed to be in charge of making sure that we operate on a fair way.
- [19:53]
Tim Miller
James, you know, when you played the sound from Grego Bovino and Michelle referenced children's books, I was thinking about the notion. And this is a quote from Aesop, the wolf and the lamb, the tyrant will always find a way to justify tyranny. And when you listen to Bovino speak and he talks of illegal aliens and he's talking of using that term, which is clearly a pejorative to start with, for undocumented immigrant, he's using the term in the context of a question about Liam and his father. Right. Basic fundamental point of law that America cannot hear often enough. Asylum seekers are not undocumented immigrants. They are here on a period of legally authorized stay. So even if one were to assume that this attempt to put the label out front. And we've seen this label, we saw the label in Minnesota, right? Domestic terrorist. The second minutes after Renee Goode was killed. She was a domestic terrorist. You put the label out front and then you reverse engineer backwards. But even if you bought that line of argument, it's also factually inaccurate as applied to this context.
- [21:07]
Nicole Wallace
No one's going anywhere. I have a million questions for everyone who is here. I also am going to go back to the streets of Minneapolis with ICE now rounding up protesters. In addition to targeting migrants and asylum seekers and immigrants and protesters, there is new reporting today on how judges in Minnesota are turning down federal agents requests to search and arrest protesters. Plus putting a punctuation mark on the week that was one in which Donald Trump single handedly jolted the entire world order. One world leader even calling on Donald Trump to apologize for the language he used about the sacrifices made by our NATO allies. We'll get to that story as well. Also had some alarming new firsthand accounts of what life is like inside Donald Trump's FBI and how it is increasingly threatened, threatening the safety of Americans. All those stories and much more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. Today.
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Tim Miller
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Al Sharpton
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Visit LifeLock.com SpecialOffer terms apply. The US military deployed on the streets of America.
- [22:48]
Nicole Wallace
Whole communities targeted for removal.
- [22:50]
Michelle Norris
There was tremendous anxiety as they saw neighbors and friends being taken.
- [22:56]
Alex Tabitz
And when accountability finally came knocking, the.
- [22:59]
Michelle Norris
Burn order to cover it all up.
- [23:02]
Nicole Wallace
I never believed that America would be doing this.
- [23:04]
Alex Tabitz
A stain on this country.
- [23:06]
Michelle Norris
One that we said we would never repeat.
- [23:08]
Nicole Wallace
Rachel Maddow presents Burn Order.
- [23:11]
Al Sharpton
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- [23:16]
Nicole Wallace
Hi, everyone. We're all back. There are thousands of people who have taken to the street in support of their town, in support of their neighbors, in support of their right to protest in opposition of Donald Trump and ICE and their targeting of the city of Minneapolis. Our correspondent Alex Tabitt is on the ground for us. In a sea of people in some of the coldest temperatures Minneapolis has seen in seven years, I am told. Alex, tell us what's happening.
- [23:48]
Alex Tabitz
Well, Nicole, I don't know what your father, daughter, childhood memories were like growing up, but here in Minneapolis, for Matthew and Rachel, your bonding right now is coming out here in defiance of these ICE raids, in defiance of what's happening in your community. Now, Matthew, you told me you're a drug counselor. Rachel, you told me you're a high school teacher.
- [24:14]
Jennika Day
Yeah, I'm student teaching.
- [24:16]
Alex Tabitz
And you said that both of your jobs, you're seeing firsthand what these immigration raids are doing to your students and to your clients. Talk to me about how it's impacting your school right now, right?
- [24:30]
Jennika Day
Yeah, I'm student teaching at a school in Minneapolis right now and about half of our students are online learning. Probably about a quarter are either. It's greatly impacting their learning. They're not able to like just have the capacity to learn. There's the staff have been really greatly organizing and families as well, families that are capable. They're organizing food banks. Students are organizing food banks. All nations program at the school is organizing food banks in the school. It's been really beautiful to see as a student teacher. I'm learning how to teach right now and social studies at the U of M. And so that's been really beautiful to see. And I feel like I'm learning how to do it in the very thick of it. But, you know, I wish I wasn't in these conditions, but I'm in the very thick of it. It started Renee Good was murdered my first week of student teaching a mile and a half, like two miles from the school I'm at. So it's just been really horrific.
- [25:29]
Alex Tabitz
And Matthew, you told me you're addiction counselor and right now you have clients who would otherwise be meeting with you in person who can't. Some can't leave their homes. They're too afraid to leave their homes. I mean, what is the impact that you're seeing firsthand of this immigration raid right now?
- [25:50]
Chris Hayes
It's just overall added stress everywhere and unfairness and just overall stress and tension and yeah, it's just hard to understand. So.
- [26:02]
Alex Tabitz
And last question to both of you guys. I mean it is. I just checked. It's negative 11 now. And yet you guys are out here. Thousands of other people are out here.
- [26:13]
Tim Miller
What does this.
- [26:14]
Nicole Wallace
It's not that bad.
- [26:15]
Jennika Day
It's not that bad. I've got 44 ounces of hot chocolate. It's been a lot worse. You know, we're showing up for our community.
- [26:23]
Alex Tabitz
So it's warm up to negative 11.
- [26:25]
Chris Hayes
It's up to negative 11 now, so.
- [26:27]
Jennika Day
Could be a lot worse. My legs are cold, but I got two layers of wool socks, boots. It's not that cold.
- [26:35]
Chris Hayes
We marched for George Floyd when it was 90 degrees. So.
- [26:40]
Alex Tabitz
You heard it there, Nicole, I guess it's not that cold. And we'll toss it back to you.
- [26:47]
Nicole Wallace
Alex, When I am out in the cold, I have a hard time sometimes moving my lips. I don't know if that's happening to you, but I would like you to go get a 44 ounce hot chocolate before we come back to you. Let me come back to you. Jane Sample, where are the referees? I mean, how long do people whose two and five year old children have been taken, how long do they have to wait until someone advocates for their legal rights?
- [27:18]
Tim Miller
The challenge here. And one of the things that is most frustrating about this sequence with Liam, the five year old, the two year old that Michelle told us about just moments ago, to me is, and if you think of, let's use the referee analogy, let's think about we're watching the NFL playoffs, right? There's a pause for replay review. Sometimes it takes a few seconds. Why the rush here is we can talk about this narrative or that narrative and there are clearly competing narratives here. But here's an objective fact. Liam was in Minnesota and is now in Texas. Why the rush? What was the absolute urgent exigency that required them to be on a plane to Texas basically immediately? No to your question. No chance for anyone to take a breath. Anyone neutral. And it's the same. And we're seeing it in the context of these warrants. If an administrative warrant, if ICE can sign its own warrant and then turn around and say, well, then, you know, that's enough. That's not a check, it's not a balance. It's literally the exact opposite. It is acting as the judge in your own case. And so what I would say to the referee question is, why can't we at least take long enough for replay review? Why in the world does Liam need to be in Texas right now?
- [28:37]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, Rev, it does feel like the people are there. It's an extraordinary act of courage. As I said at the top, they're also filling a vacuum. And I wonder, you know, who should be rushing in there? I mean, this has got the attention of the nation. Who should be rushing in there right now?
- [28:56]
Al Sharpton
Who should be rushing in there?
- [28:57]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, with lawyers on the ground. I mean, there are law firms that have done horrible, stupid, shameful deals with Donald Trump and they're working for his Commerce Department. He's sitting at about 32%. Maybe some of those people should quit their law firm and go get on the ground here and defend protesters getting rounded up.
- [29:13]
Al Sharpton
Well, you can start with those lawyers, but you can also say that people in the state, that our elected officials, the governor and the attorney general have stepped up and now they announced that they're under federal investigation. So we're seeing a real ugly era of intimidation when even when the elected officers of a state, if you dare say something, we're going to put you under federal investigation. Cause there's nothing there. But it cause you expenses, cause you all kinds of problems. Because we don't want anyone to stand in the gap. If you look at the last half century of the United States protest from the 60s, the Vietnam War, the civil rights, all the way to what we did with racial profile. It was always the government, state or federal, that would intervene and sort of mediate and try to bring this on. Course, even when Donald Trump was president, the first time George Floyd happened, when he was president, I was in the leadership of that. He didn't behave like this. They are closing every door, demonizing and criminalizing everyone, trying to push this to some end that no one can figure out. All we know is ugly and catastrophic. And I think when you're seeing 2 year olds and 5 year olds are not even beyond the pale, then we've come to a real decadent point in this, in how we scale morality in this country.
- [30:43]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah, I mean, Tim Miller, to the Rev's point, there's been a wall of resistance at the state level and local level. And I know you interviewed Mayor Fry. Tim Walls, I think, deserves a lot of the credit for having this connection with his own constituents. He has been urging peace since the minutes after Renee Nicole Goode was shot and killed. And the Attorney General, Keith Ellison, as a result, as the Rev said, they've all now been targeted for harassment by Trump's Justice Department.
- [31:16]
Chris Hayes
Yeah. And they continue to call for peace. You know, I don't know. Yesterday the vice president came to Minneapolis and like a lot of the news outlets said that he kind of moderated his tone or whatever because he didn't, you know, call Renee Good at domestic terrorists and extremists like he did the week before. But, I mean, he came to town and basically called the local officials liars. He said that the local officials aren't working with them, that they are only invading the city because they're not doing their job. You know, that the police officers in Minneapolis who have said they were racially profiled were lying, which is not true. Or, you know, from my vantage point, if it's a he said, he said between J.D. vance and, you know, a local sheriff in Minneapolis, I'm going to listen to local police officers believe that they're telling the truth about what happened to their officers. So, you know, J.D. vance comes in and maligns everybody and puns all them. And Jacob Fry, you know, last night I saw it posted on Instagram that he didn't, he hasn't even contacted them. Right. So he comes to town, he lies about the local officials. He doesn't contact them. Like they're not interested in de escalating, like they want confrontation. And I think it's pretty, pretty impressive, frankly, both the citizens but Also, the local officials have. Have had such restraint and such commitment to doing this peacefully in the face of, you know, these masked thugs coming to town and trying to menace them and. And the federal government lying about them.
- [32:47]
Nicole Wallace
Michelle, what are your sources and people that, you know, you know from covering them? And just people that, you know, what do they feel? How do they think this ends?
- [33:00]
Michelle Norris
You know, I've asked that question to several people today. I'm in touch with Minneapolis and St. Paul and people really all throughout the state, all the time. And I was wondering what breaks the fever? And if you. I don't know if you're hearing that chant right now, but the thing that people are saying more and more, both as constitutional observers and at the protest, who will save us? We will save us. You know, the people of Minnesota feel like they are on some sort of beachhead, that it's really up to them, through peaceful protest, to do this. Al's right. The fact that this has been so disciplined and peaceful is really extraordinary. And just to note, you know, the folks in Minnesota were saying, it's not that cold. It's really cold. I mean, they were talking about the temperature. They weren't talking about the wind chill. The wind chill this weekend is supposed to go down to 47 below zero. I mean, that's when you can get frostbite within five minutes. That's when your eyelashes freeze. That's when your mouth doesn't work anymore. And they're still going out and they're still doing this. To James's point, though, the legal system has been revealed at this moment to be so incredibly fragile. Our legal system depends on people of goodwill doing the right thing. And there have been attorneys that have been meeting regularly now in Minnesota to talk about the barrage of lawsuits that most certainly will be coming down the pipe, but also to figure out how to work as lawyers in a system where the rule of law no longer applies. They're ignoring constitutional rights. They're ignoring legal writs. They are operating with sort of a new mandate and a new protocol that seems to be blind to the traditional rule of law and people's constitutional rights. And that's a very scary place.
- [34:44]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah, I mean, two things. I just want to speak to a couple things that people are seeing with their own eyes. There are a lot of signs that quote, Minneapolis May or Jacob Fry, his choice, language that say, f ice. We are not putting them on TV on purpose. Neither are we keeping them off your screens. But if you have little ones around, we are sorry for the f words. There, that is what's happening and we thought you should see it. The other is to the cold. One of the, one of the protesters has a frozen beard. So there's a pluckiness about the weather, but also incontrovertible is it is really, really cold. I want to ask you a follow up question about the law. So a judge told Bovino, Gregory Bovino, to stop using chemical irritants against protesters. We saw him throwing a chemical irritant at protesters. He uses this smear, I won't repeat it here, to describe people who are not illegal. They are here as they're in the legal system and they're asylum seekers who have legal status. What do you do when the agency in charge is not following laws and judges orders?
- [35:59]
Tim Miller
It is such an important question, such a difficult question and it speaks to what Michelle was just talking about. In fact, you want to talk about connecting to seemingly very disconnected stories, but that I think are absolutely connected. The last paragraph of Jack Smith's opening statement yesterday, which is obviously nothing on its face, nothing to do with Minneapolis, nothing to do with immigration, none of those contexts. In that last paragraph he says, and I'm quoting here, I have seen how the rule of law can erode. My fear is that we have seen the rule of law function in this country for so long that we have come to take it for granted. But the rule of law is not self executing. And what Michel is talking about there is that a huge portion of our legal system doesn't depend on follow the law. It depends on the norms and the interstices that bind us together. And one of the interesting things is in both of the sort of interviews from the people on the streets there that we've seen so far in this hour, we heard the same word. We heard community. Well, a huge part of community is norms.
- [37:10]
Chris Hayes
Right.
- [37:10]
Tim Miller
And so the answer to the, I mean legally speaking, the answer to your question is oversight, which would mean Congress, which I think we both know is not going to happen. But the community answer is norms. And what Jack Smith was saying yesterday, that it is up to us because it's not self executed.
- [37:31]
Nicole Wallace
Let me just be the voice for agency. And I mean it could happen if every single donor to every single Republican said I won't give you another dollar until you stop supporting a lawless ICE that has, you know, our investment in the Republican Congress looking like a lost cause because you're all going to get wiped out. They would jump like that. I mean the only people they're more responsive to than Donald Trump's insane middle of the night musings are their donors to Tim's point.
- [37:59]
Tim Miller
We need to see them stand up the way these people are standing up.
- [38:03]
Nicole Wallace
They don't even have to get frozen beards to do it. I want to bring everyone back in. I believe I have to get to break. Is that right? Okay, we will all be right back. Don't go anywhere. Today.
- [38:18]
Chris Hayes
The US Military deployed on the streets of America.
- [38:22]
Nicole Wallace
Whole communities targeted for removal.
- [38:24]
Michelle Norris
There was tremendous anxiety as they saw neighbors and friends being taken.
- [38:30]
Alex Tabitz
And when accountability finally came knocking, the.
- [38:33]
Michelle Norris
Burn order to cover it all up.
- [38:36]
Nicole Wallace
I never believed that America would be doing this.
- [38:38]
Alex Tabitz
A stain on this country.
- [38:40]
Michelle Norris
One that we said we would never repeat.
- [38:42]
Al Sharpton
Rachel Maddow presents Burn Order all episodes available now.
- [38:51]
Nicole Wallace
As we watch the people of the state of Minnesota respond with courage and not fear after the shooting death of Renee Nicole. Good. As we watch the people of Minnesota stand outside for longer than is probably recommended in sub zero temperatures, we are reminded of how something gets started right where it begins. And Tim, I don't know whether the chicken or the egg, I don't know which is which in the story, but I do want to tell you something happening in the judicial branch in Minnesota as well. This is reporting great reporting from our colleagues Caroline Jacob Sobo and Alex Tabit who report this quote. Federal judges in Minnesota have several times in recent weeks rejected arrest warrants for people protesting a surge of immigration officers in the state. It is exceedingly rare for judges to turn down investigators requests for search and arrest warrants or criminal complaints as the standard of evidence required is so low. A federal agent or officer providing an account of events need only show a fair probability that the suspect engaged in the crime for an arrest warrant. Former FBI agents have publicly complained of watching ICE officers in Minnesota arrest protesters who appear only to be taunting or yelling at the officers, which they say appears to be protected free speech and not a criminal act. Your thoughts?
- [40:12]
Chris Hayes
Yeah. Well, in a weird way, this is. I don't know that I want. It's Friday afternoon. Have this be a slight silver lining. And it's all silver lining.
- [40:24]
Nicole Wallace
Go, go. Silver lining. Look at what is on your screen. I mean, this is a huge. This is a Minnesota. This is their gift to us. They are the silver lining. So yeah, go there.
- [40:36]
Chris Hayes
They really are. It's twofold. Here's my pitch to you. One, the people on the streets are not being cowed. And that's amazing. Number two, the people running the federal law enforcement agencies are pretty incompetent and particularly the Justice Department. And when I came into this administration, if you had called me around Christmas of 2024, you said, what are you the most worried about? One of the things I've been most worried about is just the complete and utter politicization of the Justice Department and the FBI, which has happened. But that that would turn into a very effective legal effort to go after foes, to target people, to spy on people, to use the powers of the government to go after people. And these guys have tried to do that. So it was a legitimate fear. But they just step on rake after rake after rake. You know, whether it was going after Comey or now going after Fry and Walls, you go down the whole list. The Justice Department has been utterly incompetent at every step of the way. Pan Bunny's Justice Department, Kash Patel seems to care more about going to Premier in London and going to his girlfriend's country music concerts that he does, going after bad guys. And as a result we see these horrible menacing thugs on the street acting with impunity. And that's horrible. But inside the courtrooms and inside where they're supposed to be doing the investigating and where they're supposed to be having the boys in blue, like that's in shambles. And so, you know, I do think that there is something encouraging both about what's happening in the streets, but also in the courtrooms in Minnesota where their efforts here are being rebuffed over and over again.
- [42:23]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah, I mean, to your point, their politicization of the Justice Department is so routine now that it is really off the news that last Sunday he announced a criminal investigation into Fed Chair Jerome Powell. And I think this week he also announced he was suing Jamie Dimon. I mean, we're now like we went straight from the worst of the worst to anyone here having committed the civil offense of being undocumented, which wasn't a crime, it was a civil offense to anyone protesting ICE's activity in pursuing anyone committing the civil offense of being undocumented. To a mom at drop off doing a three point turn being shot and killed while the agent filmed her to criminal investigation after criminal investigation into Jim Comey Tish James Jerome Powell. But to your, to your point, it is toxic politicization combined with undeniable incompetence. And I, and I wonder, Tim, if that isn't another silver lining that they're too incompetent to carry out their toxic politicization of doj?
- [43:35]
Chris Hayes
I think so. Obviously that does not bring any comfort to the family for NAE good or to other people who've been just manhandled and roughhouse. But because in the streets, you know, incompetent clowns with power can still be scary, you know, But I, I just, I do think that we should call it out for what it is. Like, like what they're, what they're doing on the streets is extremely menacing. The pushback from the citizens has been very inspiring. But in the courtrooms, any effort to use the levers of power to go after their foes, they just get rebuffed time and again. Now they're being rebuffed with prejudice. And it's like in Minneapolis, some of these cases that Carol Lennig reported on, it's like they went to the judge saying they wanted to indict. See seven or eight people. Judge is just like, get out of here with this. This is too ridiculous to even consider. And so I think in that case, we are seeing both from the people in the streets and also from some parts, not all parts, but some parts of the justice system, the judiciary, we are seeing institutions and elements of the democratic process. Hold here, James.
- [44:43]
Tim Miller
Yeah, I mean, I think that is a glass half full perspective, and I love it. I think the challenge, you should know.
- [44:50]
Nicole Wallace
It usually doesn't come from Tim.
- [44:54]
Tim Miller
I'm a Tim fan. I'm in the cloud club. That being said, I mean, so I'll be the glass half empty.
- [45:02]
Nicole Wallace
Fine.
- [45:04]
Tim Miller
The attacks on the judges are real. And we are seeing judges, and I don't just mean the rhetorical verbal attacks, but we are seeing judges genuinely concerned for their safety, for their family's safety. And, you know, there are judges who are standing up, certainly judges who are denying warrants when they're not differentiated in the application, which they absolutely have to be those judges standing up. That's very important. And we've seen lower court judges and state court judges around the country stand up, but we've also seen them be subjected to a level of rhetoric and some terminology and some adjectives that are just completely out of bounds relative to our history, tradition, and really the model that we purport to export around the globe.
- [46:00]
Nicole Wallace
Well, it isn't just speech. I mean, Esther Salas is a friend of the show, and she's talked about how judges are receiving pizzas as a threat and as a we know where you live message in the name of her murdered son.
- [46:11]
Tim Miller
Yeah, no, absolutely. And we saw just yesterday, to go back to the Smith hearing again, another sort of instance of the pizza box kind of dynamic. Right. The Michael Fanone scenario. And the altercation or near altercation.
- [46:25]
Nicole Wallace
He confronted a far right agitator who's been, in Fanon's words, calling for his children to be harmed or as Fanon said, quote, raped.
- [46:33]
Tim Miller
So credit to the people who are standing up in spite of all of that is how I would phrase it.
- [46:39]
Nicole Wallace
Rob, I like to turn to you at this point because we have been here before. How is this different?
- [46:45]
Al Sharpton
I think that we have been here before and we need to remember that at the end. You're going to win. Right? Is going to win. Don't forget. And as I said, talking to some of the ministers in Minnesota today, don't forget. Yes, it is cold, it is bad. They are announcing federal investigations. But in my lifetime, Martin Luther King and them march when they didn't have the legal right to ride in the front of a bus, women couldn't vote. All of this in the last half century. So we're in a better position to fight than those we celebrate now. There's a reason there's a Dr. King birthday. They fought. Dr. King's house was bombed four times and nobody ever got arrested. Nobody's bombing houses. So if we are taking on that mantle, we have the better position and we're getting and we're up against an administration that's exposing themselves. The man that said he was the target of a political vendetta is now going after everybody in the country that's against him, which is unraveling even some of his followers. But I thought you were the target. If you were the target, you would want anything but to act like that. You're now behaving like you told us was set against you. So in many ways, I think that the president and his administration is undoing themselves. We should give them the room to go ahead and fall off that cliff. But we stand moral and understand that it was fighting that got women the right to vote. It was fighting that broke down segregation, nonviolent marches, LGBQ rights. Let's not act like we've not seen in our lifetime people that had less to work with and got the job.
- [48:30]
Nicole Wallace
Done well and on the streets of Minnesota, Michelle, these are people who were going about their lives. And what happens is right wing Internet content explodes into a right wing scandal about fraud. And if that were the pretext, forensic accountants would have showed up in these numbers. But they didn't. They didn't. Ill trained ICE agents showed up. And they might even outnumber the number of people who are the stated target of mass deportations, which are violent. I don't know that we've seen any numbers of how many adjudicated violent criminals have actually been found in all of these extrajudicial stops and arrests and yanking people out of cars and cutting their seatbelts and leaving their cars running in the middle of icy streets. What is your sense of what the people of Minnesota want from the rest of us? What do they need and want right now?
- [49:30]
Michelle Norris
Well, one thing they keep saying is they don't want outsiders to come in because they're so worried about outside agitators come in. They want people to understand that this is in Minnesota, but it doesn't stop at the border. And I keep saying Minnesota. We're showing pictures of Minneapolis, but this is happening all throughout the state, both the raids and the kinds of protests that you're seeing today. And I appreciate you keeping the reels going just so people can see these protests because what we usually see in the news over the past three weeks are pictures of people being arrested, pulled out of cards, tackled on the ground, canisters of tear grass or some sort of irritant thrown into a crowd. And this you're seeing, you know, something that to, to people who, you know, believe in the rule of law might feel like a bit of a tonic or a balm to see that people are standing up to this. Minnesotans have dealt with an army of federal enforcement officers who showed up armored, armed, aggressive, anonymous, and who have to answer to no local authorities. And they have decided that that's not what they want. And when I talk to people, one of the things that they keep saying is if they are successful in mitigating this in Minnesota, one of the worries is that they are. So the people who are pushing this agenda, this mass deportation agenda, are so wed to that agenda that they won't stop in Minnesota. So the question, the worry is that if they stop this in Minnesota, where does it go next? And I think Minnesotans want people to understand that.
- [51:02]
Nicole Wallace
Michelle, Tim, the Revel James. Thank you all so much for spending this hour with me. There's much more to come for us after a very short break. We'll stay in Minneapolis. We'll follow what's happening there on the streets. Don't go anywhere.
- [51:19]
Al Sharpton
Ms. Now presents the chart topping original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. This week, she sits down with American journalist Oliver Darcy.
- [51:30]
Chris Hayes
What makes me optimistic is we have been through very turbulent times in America.
- [51:33]
Tim Miller
Before and things got better. And so that's what gives me some hope.
- [51:37]
Al Sharpton
The Best people with Nicole Wallace. Listen now for early access and free.
- [51:41]
Chris Hayes
Listening and bonus content.
- [51:43]
Al Sharpton
Subscribe to Ms. Now Premium on Apple Podcasts.