“An alarming display of contempt”

Summary

Deadline: White House, “An alarming display of contempt”

Host: Nicolle Wallace (MSNBC)
Air Date: September 9, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the explosive release and political fallout of the Jeffrey Epstein "birthday book" and a note allegedly from Donald Trump contained within it. Nicolle Wallace, along with a panel of political and legal analysts, examines the implications of this evidence, the long-standing questions about Trump and Epstein's relationship, and the broader narrative of accountability for powerful men connected to Epstein’s crimes. The show pivots into a critique of recent dismissive comments by Trump about domestic violence, highlighting his ongoing pattern of minimizing abuse against women both in rhetoric and policy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Epstein “Birthday Book” and Trump’s Ties

Timestamps: [01:08] – [14:32]

• The Evidence: New documents surfaced showing a $22,500 check from Donald Trump to Jeffrey Epstein, referenced in a note with a lewd remark about a "fully depreciated woman."
• The Wall Street Journal compared signatures and corroborated the handwriting as consistent with Trump’s, referencing other personal letters he had written.
• The book, compiled for Epstein’s 50th birthday, contains letters that openly reference his sexual exploits with minors, indicating such behavior was an "open secret" among his associates.
• The panel disputes claims by Trump and his allies that the letter is a hoax, noting the note’s existence for over two decades and the unlikely, convoluted scenario that would be needed to fake it.

Quote:

“The people who are submitting letters to this book…they all seem to know it's an open secret that this man was a pedophile…No one is hiding it. They're all celebrating.” – Christy Greenberg, [07:41]

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2. Ongoing Investigations and Document Access

Timestamps: [22:17] – [25:50]

• A bipartisan House Oversight Committee staff will soon view the unredacted birthday book and related documents, indicating the issue remains active at the federal level.
• The panel stresses the significance of continued journalism and legal disclosure: every new document fuels more leads and deepens the evidentiary record.

Quote:

“Every time a new piece of evidence comes out…there’s 10 leads to follow and there’s more depth and contour to the picture that’s emerging.” – John Heilman, [13:13]

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3. Political and Public Narrative

Timestamps: [14:32] – [19:58]

• Public Skepticism: Polls show 81% of Americans, across party lines, believe Trump is hiding something about Epstein; the topic has entered the “narrative dominance” zone.
• MAGA figures and rightwing influencers have grown quiet, reflecting a coordinated shift to protect Trump’s image.

Quote:

“It is the narrative…it’s the story…ultimately what you remember is the big picture, the big arc.” – Angelo Carusone, [15:59]

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4. Division Among Republicans

Timestamps: [18:28] – [32:33]

• The panel observes a split within the GOP:
  • Some Trump-aligned Congresswomen (Marjorie Taylor Greene, Lauren Boebert, Nancy Mace) have openly stood with Epstein’s survivors, even as others downplay or deflect the scandal.
  • The logic: appealing to a MAGA base that is itself suspicious or conspiracy-minded about elites and abuse.
• Nick Fuentes, a far-right influencer, turned on Republican leadership for minimizing Epstein and Trump’s connection, underscoring fractures in the coalition.

Quote:

“When you lose Nick Fuentes on this story…that is really, really political malpractice.” – Nicolle Wallace, [30:24]

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5. Survivors and Systemic Injustice

Timestamps: [27:34] – [29:54]

• The family of survivor Virginia Giuffre issues a public statement framing the release of these files as a “turning point” for justice and demanding broader accountability and transparency.
• Journalistic perseverance, notably by the Miami Herald, credited for triggering legal action against Epstein in the first place.

Quote:

“This moment signifies a turning point. The release of these files should not only incriminate…the individuals who helped build Epstein… but also expose the systemic failures that allowed them to act unchecked.” – Giuffre family statement, [27:34]

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6. Trump’s Rhetoric on Domestic Violence

Timestamps: [34:44] – [39:42]

• Recent Comments: Trump, at a Religious Liberty Commission event, dismissed domestic violence as “a little fight with the wife,” suggesting such cases inflate crime statistics.
• Statistics cited disprove Trump’s minimization, noting the severity and prevalence of domestic violence and murder by intimate partners.
• Community Impact: Panelists discuss how such minimizing rhetoric compounds the trauma of victims, perpetuates stigma, and discourages reporting.
• Host notes October is National Domestic Violence Awareness Month, emphasizing the importance of public vigilance and policy advocacy.

Quote:

“A little fight with the wife…the way he says it, ‘the wife’…It’s a very kind of objectifying and dismissive term.” – John Heilman, [36:33]

Quote:

“This is not just a private issue. This is a public health issue…” – Angela Farrell Zabala, [37:34]

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7. Policy and Political Consequences

Timestamps: [41:43] – [46:09]

• Trump’s administration is criticized for actions restricting federal domestic violence grants, hindering the work of victim advocacy organizations.
• Survivors already distrustful of law enforcement or legal institutions may be less likely to seek help when influential leaders openly disparage or trivialize their suffering.

Quote:

“When you have the President of the United States…speaking in this way…you're really just telling these women who have suffered and been exploited that we're not going to protect you.” – Christy Greenberg, [41:43]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Trump saying, this is now a dead issue… he might look dead, but he's not dead, he's only mostly dead, which means he's slightly alive. I think this story is definitely in the catalog.” – John Heilman, discussing narrative persistence, [11:58]
• “The heart of the pedophilia fear in the Republican Party is with suburban and exurban moms who are…worried about their kids at school…I mean, that’s the political reality.” – John Heilman, [30:44]
• “There's a deep, gathering sense that, far from being not only not dead, but this story is more alive today than it’s ever been.” – John Heilman, [13:48]

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Important Segment Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |-----------|------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:08 | Opening: Trump and Epstein “birthday book” revelations | | 05:54 | Behind-the-scenes: SDNY investigations and unpublicized evidence | | 07:41 | Analysis: Tone and implications of the Epstein letters | | 13:13 | Legal/political: Every new clue spurs more leads | | 14:32 | Power of narrative and polling: Public suspicion | | 18:28 | Nick Fuentes segment: Rightwing backlash | | 22:17 | Bipartisan House staff to view unredacted documents | | 27:34 | Statement from Virginia Giuffre’s family | | 34:44 | Trump downplays domestic violence at Religious event | | 36:33 | Critique: “A little fight with the wife” language | | 41:43 | Policy: Administration cuts to domestic violence programs | | 45:24 | Ghislaine Maxwell, Epstein circle, and unanswered questions |

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Conclusion

This episode delivers an unflinching look at how issues of power, accountability, and abuse are surfacing in U.S. politics—fueled by new evidence, persistent survivor voices, and a deeply divided public narrative. Wallace and her panel highlight the urgency of transparency and support for survivors, calling out the minimization and evasions of those in power, and explicitly linking political calculations with moral and social imperatives for action.

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Panel Guests:

• Angelo Carusone (President, Media Matters for America)
• John Heilman (Puck News columnist & MSNBC analyst)
• Christy Greenberg (Former SDNY Deputy Chief, MSNBC legal analyst)
• Angela Farrell Zabala (Executive Director, Moms Demand Action)

Key Themes:

• The Trump-Epstein connection and ongoing cover-up allegations
• Shifting political alliances and fractures within the GOP
• The potent role of public narrative and media persistence
• Enduring trauma and demands for justice from survivors
• Trump’s minimization of domestic violence and its real-world implications

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Transcript

[A]

Deadline. White House is brought to you by Progressive, where drivers who save by switching save nearly $750 on average. Plus auto customers qualify for an average of 7 discounts. Quote [e-mail] to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates national average 12 month savings of $744 by new customers surveyed who save with Progressive between June 2022 and May 2023. Potential savings will vary. Discounts not available in all states and situations. Saturday, October 11th from New York City, it's MSNBC Live 25. Join your favorite MSNBC hosts Rachel Maddow, Joe Scarborough, Mika Brzezinski, Nicole Wallace, Ari Melber, Alicia Menendez, Simone Sanders Townsend, Michael Steele, Chris Haynes, jen Psaki, Lawrence O', Donnell, Stephanie Ruhle and more. Visit msnbc.comlive25 to buy your tickets today.

[B]

Hi there everyone. It's 4 o' clock in New York. Donald Trump today failing in his efforts to dodge, spin away and avoid answering the $64 million question of the hour. What did he know about the crimes and perversions of his former friend, deceased sex offender Jeffrey Epstein? Rep. Revealed last night by Democrats on the House Oversight Committee a reference to Donald Trump in the now infamous Jeffrey Epstein birthday book. Take a look at this. The Wall Street Journal is reporting that it is a note from Mar, a language member and businessman Joel Paschkow. It shows a poster board size check for $22,500 from Donald Trump to Jeffrey Epstein. A woman's face is redacted in the image below. The photo is a note. That note reads, quote, jeffrey showing early talents with money plus women sells fully depreciated name of the woman redacted to Donald Trump for $22,500. The Wall Street Journal reports this quote, the woman, a wealthy European then in her 20s, severed all ties with Epstein around 1997 and had no romantic relationship with either Epstein or Trump, her lawyer said. The lawyer added that she doesn't know Pascal and has no knowledge of the letter naming her, which she called, quote, a disgusting and deeply disturbing hoax. Pashkow did not respond to a request for comment from NBC News. His letter, though, raises more questions about how much people in Jeffrey Epstein's orbit, including Donald Trump, knew about what he was doing. And it's the kind of thing that makes Team Trump spin looks increasingly unsustainable and ridiculous. This morning, Donald Trump told NBC's Garrett Hake that the birthday letter to Jeffrey Epstein that he allegedly wrote was a, quote, dead issue. But it is difficult, if not impossible, to claim that something is a dead issue when every day seems to bring about new revelations that enhance our understanding of the ties and the nature of the relationship between Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump. Survivors are still asking for transparency as well. And solid majorities of Americans, including a majority of Republicans, believe that Donald Trump is hiding something. It is also not a hoax, as Trump continues to insist it is, even after the publication of the note in Epstein's birthday book. The birthday book was from 2003. It was a gift for Jeffrey Epstein's 50th. It was handed over to the House Oversight Committee by the Epstein estate for it to be a fake. It's the White House and pro Trump media is claiming it is. That would mean that the note inside of it from Trump was forged or faked 22 years ago. It's for the Trump administration claiming that the signature on the birthday note to Jeffrey Epstein isn't Donald Trump's. Wall Street Journal today reports this quote in the Epstein letter. Trump's signature is a squiggly Donald mimicking pubic hair. Trump often signs with his full name, but there are other examples of personal letters he sent with a similar signature and bold serif lettering. The Wall Street Journal pointing to a thank you letter Trump wrote to George Conway in 2006, as well as this letter Donald Trump wrote to Hillary Clinton in 2000 congratulating her on winning her Senate race. The release of the Epstein birthday book, breathing new life into the questions about Donald Trump and his friendship with Jeffrey Epstein is where we start today with some of our favorite experts and friends. The president of Media Matters for America, Angelo Carazone, is here with me at the table. Puck News chief political columnist, MSNBC national affairs analyst John Heilman is here. Also joining us, former criminal division deputy chief at SDNY, MSNBC legal analyst, host of a new YouTube show, Courtside. Christy Greenberg's here. Christy, I want to start with you where we left off last time you were here, talking about the lengths Jeffrey Berman, Donald Trump's first head of SDNY during his first term, went to keep the rate of Epstein's home. I went back and read the chapter after you were here. Clearly there was and Andrew Weissman and others have said there are all sorts of reasons to keep things from Maine doj. But Trump isn't a normal. That wasn't a normal Maine doj and STNY wasn't a normal office at the time. Just say a little bit more about what might be sort of inside the investigation files themselves that Trump may not have even known about at the time in his first term.

[C]

So the main thing that you would expect to see would be FBI reports of their interviews with victims, with other witnesses that really tell the story. And we know from Maxwell's trial that really focused on six girls, but we've also seen DOJ talk about hundreds, thousands, thousands of victims. So there's a lot more than what was presented at that trial. And Jeffrey Berman actually says in the book, because of all of the nonsense that went on in Florida, they really tried to focus their case on what happened in New York, acts that were in that New York house. And so there is, it is highly likely going back and looking at that book again from Jeff Berman, that it sounds like they really tried to cabin their case about what they could prove that wouldn't get damaged from that non prosecution agreement. That sweetheart deal in Florida. Likely a whole lot there that was not presented at trial. That is not public of victims telling their stories that we have not heard. And then that gets backed up when the investigators try to corroborate those victims. Right. So they're looking for search warrant returns. I think there are multiple search warrant returns that have not been made public. What did they get? Did they get photographs, videos, documentary evidence? So there is a lot there that is still. I mean, I recall you mentioning on one of your other shows, like over 300 gigabytes. To put that in perspective, that's about like 90 million pages, if you were just looking at pages. So that is a very tall building is just what that would be. It's a lot of information. And you know, we have not seen all of it.

[B]

What's the significance of the actual pages of the birthday book, the now known two examples of references to Donald Trump?

[C]

Well, first it strikes me that, you know, one, that the people who are submitting letters to this book, they all kind of have the same tone. They're all lewd and they all seem to know it's an open secret that this man was a pedophile. They're all taught there are pictures of young girls, they're all referencing his exploits with young girls. One person says, oh, it's shocking. You're not in the penitentiary yet. Like this was One seemed to be pretty much an open secret. Two is that they treated it like a joke. Like these women, you know, being exploited was funny to them. They were celebrating Epstein for it. I mean, I found that part of it particularly disgusting. And then the third is just the arrogance that it would be so bold as to be put in writing. Nobody is, again, nobody's hiding it. They're all celebrating. And this is part of celebrating his life, 50 years of life, to go on and talk about all these young women that he's abused. And this idea that, again, Ghislaine Maxwell saying, I had no idea anybody did anything inappropriate. She put the book together. She was the one soliciting the letters, so of course she knew. And the one thing I would want to say that the book clearly shows is she said during her interview that the book was something that she had seen in discovery, at least parts of the book in discovery. So DOJ has this book, so they know whether Donald Trump's letter is in it. And Ghislaine Maxwell had a trial. The book is relevant to her guilt, her knowledge of what was going on in that world. The fact that Donald Trump's letter was not made public as part of that trial puts the light of this Republican talking point that, oh, if there was something bad about Donald Trump, the Biden DOJ would have released it. They didn't. We know that his name was in the file. They never released that. And it's highly likely based on this that the DOJ had the book. She said parts of it were in discovery. They never released that, nor did the Epstein estate release it until they got a subpoena to provide it. So the idea that if you're going to fake a letter from Donald Trump, you're going to go through all the trouble of coming up with this thing, you know, faking his signature, to what end? Nobody released it. They only released it when there was a process to do so. Right.

[B]

They were going to fake a letter, put it in a book, leave it under seal until one Republican breaks with Trump when he's reelected after inciting a deadly insurrection to side with the Democrats in the minority and try to get the estate to release it. I mean, might have been better to organize in Pennsylvania. What do you make of the word one depreciated woman?

[D]

Fully depreciated.

[B]

Fully depreciated woman.

[D]

Even worse.

[C]

Just sickening. It's so sickening. And what the message that it sends to not just Epstein's victims and Maxwell's victims, but all sex trafficking victims, that this is a president who, again, it fits in with what we knew about him. The locker room talk, it's that kind of nonsense that, you know, continues to be perpetuated. It's just more of that. And it's just the more you see, the more it's just a bunch of creepy old dudes who had money, who had power, and Connections. They knew these young girls didn't. They knew they didn't have a voice, and they took advantage of them. And for them to again treat them as though they are bought and paid for, I mean, it's repulsive.

[B]

Quote, put on your big boy pants and tell us who the pedophiles are. I know you know who said that? I know Angelo does. It was Kash Patel. And my question about how big a gigabyte is is also sourced to Kash Patel. He was talking about gigabytes in an appearance. Joe Rogan. The vast amount of material inside the files and that they answer the question, quote, tell us who the pedophiles are. He was speaking to the House Republicans. Our source on that is Kash Patel, who has more information now. What is your sense of how he's managed to disappear?

[D]

That's a very good question. I mean, Cash Patel. Well, you know, the FBI does run the witness protection program.

[B]

Maybe he and Dan Bunch, Dan Bongino.

[D]

Feel like, hey, this could be some useful technology for us right now. He's probably, like, living in Arizona someplace.

[B]

They always go to Arizona in Tempe.

[D]

Next to Henry Hill from Goodfellas. I can't help but think about this. Trump saying, this is now a dead issue. I'm sorry, I don't know where those guys are. They are clearly laying low. The dead issue thing just made me think as we sit here on the eve of the release of the Spinal Tap sequel. Reminds me of another movie by that great director Rob Reiner, the Princess Bride, where Miracle Max, played by Billy Crystal, says that Prince. Wesley. Wesley, he might look dead, but he's not dead. He's only mostly dead, which means he's slightly alive. I think this story is definitely in the catalog.

[B]

Oh, I love that.

[E]

That's good.

[D]

He's not dead. This story is slightly alive. And this gets to the point you're making, which is, man, there is so many. This is a small thing. We didn't learn that much yesterday. These are real things. They're important. No one in their right mind who has looked at the historical record, a public record, doesn't already know that Donald Trump had a very close relationship with Jeffrey Epstein for a very long time and that they said a lot of scummy stuff to each other. You look at the pictures, speak a thousand words of them. The way leering at these women on the dance floor, all of that stuff. Do we learn anything hugely important? No, what we learned was mostly is that there's probably a lot more where that came from these things that no one's expecting. The things that you suddenly see. That picture of this guy, Joel Paschkow, who provided this thing that comes out of the Epsteinist look, a lot of leads out there that haven't been followed. That guy should be getting a subpoena pretty quick, right? Joel Pascho. Let's get him in front of the Oversight Committee and find out what he meant when he wrote fully depreciated about this woman. Let's find out what the actual story was behind that. I mean, this is the most obvious thing in the world. If you're an investigator working for anybody, the House Oversight Committee, he's got to be now right at the top of your list. But the point is that every time a new piece of evidence comes out, there are, as every lawyer will tell you, there's 10 leads to follow and there's more depth and contour to the picture that's emerging. Not that anything's like, oh, my God, Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein likes young women. They boasted about how they liked young women. All that stuff is out there. What there is is a deepening evidentiary record, greater kind of nuance and subtlety and texture to the record, and a lot of a sense, a gathering sense, that far from being not only not dead or only slightly alive, but this story is, if you care about its appropriate disposition, the story is more alive today than it's ever been in the sense that there are more leads to follow that are not being, have not yet been followed, that we don't even know about.

[B]

Yeah, and I guess I don't think you even have to care about it. I mean, Angela, you taught me this term narrative dominance, which I've been obsessed with ever since you introduced it into my brain waves. 81% of Americans think Donald Trump is hiding something when it comes to the Epstein powers. You don't even have to be tracking this story carefully or listening to Joe Rogan or consuming sort of conspiracy adjacent content to think that Donald Trump is involved in a massive cover up. And so the Wall Street Journal's trailblazing on this story and the subsequent defamation suit, which to me now seems totally moot, the book is out. Republicans and Democrats can hold it and touch and see it seems to fuel the thing that 81% of Americans now believe in their bones, that, quote, donald Trump is covering up something about the Epstein files. There will be other fights, there will be other battles, and maybe even the war that he'll win. But this battle has been waged for public opinion. It's Month seven. Kash Patel's the source. Anjo Rogan telling us about gigabytes of information saying, quote, house Republicans, put on your big boy pants and tell us who the pedophiles are. The questions were asked by the MAGA Republicans. And now 81% of Americans believe those same MAGA Republicans, including Donald Trump, are hiding the answers.

[E]

Yeah, and I think that's it. I mean, it's ultimately, it's the narrative, it's the story. These little side threads that come up the day to day, details, oftentimes that gets lost on people and that's okay. I mean, ultimately what you remember is sort of the big picture, the big arc, the story. And the story seems to track with what people already have, an intuitive sense of belief. I mean, you know, it's not like these things happen in a vacuum either. I mean, the Catholic Church, sex, you know, sex scandal, you know, simmered and brewed for a while, was described as an open secret for so long. And finally one day it changed. And people are aware of these things. There is this perception and feeling that people in power do bad things, they get away with it and other people in power help them get away with it and cover it up. And then that is a story that is deeply American and not just unique to us. It's part of history. It aligns with people's understanding. And so the moment we're in right now is sort of this weird quantum state because, you know, when Trump describes it as a debt issue and I love John's description as sort of like semi alive in some ways, he's not wrong. It is still simmering, the embers are still there. He has successfully brought a whole bunch of people to heal. People like Laura Loomer and you know, who are out there for weeks and months, even after this initially broke, have gone quiet. They're radio silent on this. They've said the ends justify the means. I will participate or I will help enable all of this sexual misconduct, all of this sexual abuse because it's for the greater good for Donald Trump. They've gotten in line. Laura Ingraham, FOX News. They've gotten in line. They've stopped talking about it, but as you know, it's already baked in. Americans care about this. They think there's something fishy and suspicious here and they think it's about Trump. So to me, then it's a question of so what, what does that mean in terms of politics? And this is where I think there has to be a little bit of a shift it can't only ever be about Donald Trump because you know, there will be people that say I really care about this, but I care more about Donald Trump, just like all those right wing influencers. But a story about House Republicans and Republican elected leaders engaging in a massive cover up for sexual abusers and ignoring Trump, it'll come back around, it'll boomerang back to him. But ultimately, in order to propel this story, more individual threads like this have to come out. And as John noted, more of those threads, when they get exposed, have to be pulled. And the only way to do that is to now start to build more political pressure on all of those people covering it up. And instead of it just being about them protecting Trump, which they are, they're also protecting this really dark dirty secret and helping all these abusers get away with it.

[B]

Well, here's the other piece of our politics that's been cemented in as a narrative that the reason Mitch McConnell doesn't object, which he's never been for in his 170 years in the Senate, is because he's afraid. He fears real violence. The reason the Republicans who were doctors didn't oppose RFK is because they're afraid of real violence. Well, here's someone who's sort of adjacent to the most sort of. Well, here's Nick Fuentes, a white nationalist, talking about what he's going to do to Mike Johnson because of his BS about Trump being an informant.

[E]

We're just being lied to. We're, they're just insulting us. How can you take this? How can anybody take this? And I was mad about it yesterday. I was. Cuz like I said yesterday, they for five years gassed up and gaslighted the base on Epstein disclosure. They said they would do it. They did the binder photo op. Now they're telling us we're traitors. If we still want it, then not even 24 hours later they say, well, Trump was named throughout the files, but it's because he was an undercover cop. Who believes that? Do they expect us to believe that? Like what is even the goal there? Do they think we're gonna buy that? And who is that for?

[B]

We're just taking a break on the other side. We'll try to answer this question. Happens when you lose Nick Fuentes on this story. Later in the show, the leading Democrat on that committee that helped secure the Epstein birthday book become public will be our guest. We'll talk with him about that, about the disclosure and its significance and what's next on this story. That Donald Trump so desperately wants to go away. Plus, Donald Trump once said that he would, quote, protect women whether they like it or not, end quote. Well, now we're learning that there are some exceptions to the women he wants to protect, notably women who are victims of crimes committed in their homes. So he says. We'll talk about all that, that outrageous and dangerous and potentially revealing claim ahead. And later in the hour, we'll also talk about some fresh faces injecting promises of hope and change for the Democratic Party in some pretty big states. All those stories and more when DEADLINE WHITE HOUSE continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

[D]

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[A]

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[B]

So we have a bit of news to report on this topic. Tomorrow, a bipartisan group of staff from the House Oversight Committee will be meeting with lawyers from Jeffrey Epstein's estate to view the unredacted versions of these documents that the estate has turned over to the Oversight Committee, including the birthday book and the birthday note Trump allegedly wrote to Epstein. We'll talk about all of this with a leading Democrat on the committee later in our broadcast. We are back now with Angelo, John and Christie Hellman. Your your thoughts on where this leaves Republicans who may see Thomas Massie do something that Republicans really haven't done, I guess since McCain went with thumbs down after all the attacks. I mean, he seems to be gathering strength, not losing it in the face of what must be withering threats from the White House.

[D]

Right. Well, and this goes back to again to our discussion of dead versus slightly dead, versus whatever. And I agree with Angela, there's no doubt that in certain quarters, people who are Trump, either Trump supporters or Trump adjacent, that they have lost their, their appetite for this story. There's no question there's a part of the Trump media base that has gone quiet. At the same time, it is the case that the Wall Street Journal is like a dog with a bone on this story now and is doing incredible journalism. They've been doing incredible journalism, I would say, on a variety of topics all year long. But on this story, the knockdown yesterday with the data, the graphics, everything they did yesterday to prove that, to basically make the case that this letter is real, was compelling on almost every level. So the main, so a chunk of the most important organ of the mainstream right wing media is still on this story. We saw Nick Fuentes before and you just went to Thomas Massie. Now, Thomas Massie is a little bit of an odd duck, right? I'll tell you who's not an odd duck in the MAGA world. Marjorie Taylor Greene, Lauren Boebert, Nancy Mace, the three women who stood up with the victims, with the survivors, I should say, last week. And that's another way in which the story is not only again viewed for one prism, it is true that a part of the story is simmering down. The appearance of those survivors, the power of them together, and the appearance of those three very hardcore MAGA female congresswomen out there on the mall and Marjorie Taylor Greene standing up saying, if they give me a list, I will go read it. In the well of the House of Representatives, another part of the fire is burning pretty bright and not just around MSNBC and cnn, but in parts of the MAGA world. There's no one who's backing off this story. In fact, I think the appearance of those survivors has lit a fire, not abuse the metaphor too much, under a certain part of the MAGA base. So it's a complicated picture, but I think it's not that it's all gathering steam, gathering force in unison, but certain parts of it are burning hotter than they were burning before, are more alive than they were before, and certain parts a little bit more acquiescent at this point. But I think there's still the most important thing. For the truth, there's still a lot. There's still plenty of mileage to go in this story. And then secondarily second to the truth. And for the survivors, there is still, if there's an adroit Democratic Party, there's still a lot of mileage to be gotten out of pursuing this for political, for the purposes of politics at making the case against the corruption that they see in the Trump administration.

[B]

And I think the reason that Marjorie Taylor Greene and Lauren Boebert and Nancy Mace, I think it's good that they're standing with the victims. The victims themselves have identified, some of them have identified themselves as Republicans. Some of them have been sitting, voted for Donald Trump. But their strength is derived from the MAGA base itself. I mean, if you've got to go to war with the White House, go to war with the White House's those base of voters. Angelo.

[E]

Yeah, I mean, let's not forget, I mean, this is a, this is a group of people that, you know, convinced, were convinced for many years and still some of them are that a pizza parlor that used the term pizza was somehow code for a massive international global sex trafficking. Right. I mean, they see this, they see the world through this lens of this massive cabal of elites engaging in child sex trafficking. And so to your point, you know, there's a, you know, independent, whether or not there's an authenticity to it, they are capitalizing on the reality of what you gave with those polling numbers, which is that there's something here. And, you know, instead of it being purely a direct confrontation to Trump, they can pick up pieces of that kinetic energy and try to harness it. But at the end of the day, whether it's a broadside against Trump and his relationship with Epstein or kicking or trying to harness this Epstein story to get to the victims thing, that is all going to eventually lead back to Trump and what he's done here and his administration to cover up. And once it breaks, a lot of these people come out of witness protection. You know, once you have an incentive structure, because all the incentives are over Trump right now. That's what the center of gravity is. But as Marjorie Taylor Greene and these others are showing, there are other power bases and it's directly with Trump's voters. The same way that Trump hijacked the Fox audience in a way that's kind of what we're seeing right now with Massie and Green.

[B]

So interesting. Again, just to bring it back to the victims themselves. This is the statement from the family of Virginia Giuffre. Quote, this moment signifies a turning point. The release of these files should not only incriminate the individuals who helped build Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell's child and adult sex trafficking network, but also expose the systemic failures that allowed them to act unchecked. The evidence in These documents is a stark reminder of the trauma these survivors endured for far too long. To those who have caused such harm. Your time is up. We will not rest until justice is served and you are held accountable for your crimes. This is a moral imperative. We call on everybody to take action. Reach out to your representatives and demand the release of all the files related to the case.

[C]

It's what they're saying there about the fact that this is not over. If we keep using our voices, if we keep speaking out, it's just so important. I mean, just think back to how this started with Epstein being charged in sdny. It started because of great reporting by the Miami Herald, by Julie K. Brown. They saw her reporting and they said, you know what, let's get together, let's start investigating this. It wasn't going to happen until she actually went and talked to so many victims and published their stories and published their accounts. And so I think that the more journalists stay on the story and continue to give that voice to the victims, I mean, the more power there is in that, the more that, you know, the speaker of the House can't just spout lies without it being clearly debunked. I mean, when you hear that Nicholas Fuentes, like, yeah, of course he's not an informant. Why are you insulting our intelligence by telling us that he is, like, an informant has a very. It's not just, oh, I met with law enforcement and I gave them some information. That doesn't make you an informant. And an informal informant is you have a handler at the FBI, somebody you're working with, you're providing information. Often you're paid or you've done something and you're trying to work it off and cooperate. It's a very specific term. And clearly he wasn't an informant, because we know that SDNY was trying to keep this from Trump and his administration. If he was breaking the whole thing open, why would they have had to kept it secret? So, I mean, when the lies are so outrageous that you lose Nick Fuentes.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

You lose your baby, you lose the judges who are saying what you're doing with these grand jury transcripts, it's disingenuous. When you're losing Marjorie Taylor Greene, when she's saying you're calling it a hoax, it's not a hoax. I believe these women. There was a trial, like, when everybody's calling it out, then, yeah, you just, you make him look like a fool. And so it's just so important that you and others continue to cover it the way that you are what is.

[B]

Wrong with Mike Johnson?

[D]

I always get those kind of questions from you. It's like, what am I supposed to say here?

[B]

I get why he sent everybody home. He thought this was a walk Washington story that shows the stupidity of his political radar. This isn't a Washington story. This is a story that is festered in the souls of people who like really believe in the conspiracy around this. But to lie to the point where you offend Nick Fuentes is really, really political malpractice.

[D]

I think the idea that Mike Johnson is some kind of political titan just because he's the Republican Party has had a very hard time holding onto speakers, as you're well aware. It's not like Mike Johnson became speaker because he was the Republican Tip o' Neill or even the Republican Newt Gingrich back in the day. He was kind of like, well, I guess that's the guy we're going to. Now that we've deposed Kevin McCarthy, he's in some respects over performed his actual political skills. There are a lot of concern about the fact that Mike Johnson didn't have very many political skills when he got that job. He's managed lot a whole hold his caucus together and people have been a little surprised that he's done as well as he's done, given low expectations for him. But this is an area where you see his political maladroitness come out. And again I will say to go back to those women, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Lauren Boebert, Nancy Mace, why are they doing what they're doing? I have no idea what's in their heart and whether they believe these women or whether they don't believe these women or what they're doing. I'll tell you what they believe. They believe is that the women women in their districts are up in arms about this. And we focus a lot about the manosphere because it's manosphere and they're on podcasts or whatever. The heart of the pedophilia fear in the Republican Party is in fact with suburban and exurban moms who are the ones who are checking the Internet to see where the sex traffickers are in their neighborhood. They're worried about their kids at school. They're the ones who have been most prone, not almost public, but in the in the actual data. The ones who have been most freaked out by the supposed pedophilia outbreak in America that doesn't really exist. And those three women hearing from that part of the base, that's the political reality that they're whatever else their personal feelings are that they're reacting to. And that is another reason why this story's not going away.

[B]

All right, Angelo, thank you for starting us off today. Christi and John, stick around. When we come back, Donald Trump yesterday claiming actual domestic violence arrests are getting in the way of his preferred statistics when he talks about crime. He really said that? We'll show it to you so you don't have to take our word for it. You can hear it yourself. Next.

[A]

As President Trump continues implementing his ambitious agenda, follow along with MSNBC's newest newsletter, Project 47. You'll get weekly updates sent straight to your inbox with expert analysis on the administration's latest actions and how they're affecting the American people.

[B]

The American people are basically telling the president that they are not okay with any of this.

[A]

Sign up for the Project 47 newsletter at msnbc.com project47. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access. Add free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace. Why Is this Happening? Name, justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddows original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.

[E]

Hey everyone, it's Chris Hayes. This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening? Harvard political scientist Erica Chenoweth.

[C]

People often find out the world they're.

[E]

In after the fact.

[C]

And that's what makes this wave of global autocratization, as they call it, much more like the one that was in the 1920s and 30s than the one that was in, like the 1960s and 70s. Because in the 60s and 70s, there were bright lines. There was a coup outright by the military declaring themselves the caretaker government, or there was an armed revolution that won. We're in a different world where most of the aspiring autocrats today are elected authoritarians.

[E]

That's this week on why Is this Happening? Search for why Is this Happening where you're listening right now and follow.

[B]

I know it feels like forever ago, but on the campaign trail, Donald Trump actually promised all of the women in America that he would be their, quote, protector. Yesterday, at a Religious Liberty Commission event at the Museum of the Bible, Donald Trump appeared to add a rather enormous loophole to that promise he made to all women that it's only a promise as long as they're not in need of protection in their own homes.

[D]

They said crime's down 87%.

[E]

I said, no, no, no.

[D]

It's more than 87%, virtually nothing. And. And much lesser things. Things that take place in the home they call crime.

[E]

You know, they'll do anything they can to find something.

[D]

If a man has a little fight with the wife, they say this was a crime.

[B]

See? So now I can't claim 100% lesser things. Time for a fact check. Because we would hate for domestic violence to get in the way of his preferred crime statistics. But According to the CDC, four in 10 women in the United States of America have experienced sexual violence, physical violence, and or stalking by a partner, or as Trump would say, a little fight in the home. More than half of women in the United States who were murdered were murdered by a current or former intimate partner or, you know, just a little squabble in the house. And According to the UN globally, a woman is killed every 10 minutes by a partner or family member in a little fight in the home.

[D]

A little fight with the wife is. Was the phrase, which is a way worse. I mean, as indicative of a certain kind of like. Of antediluvian, like, you know, little fight, not with his spouse, not with his wife, but a little fight with the wife.

[B]

The wife.

[D]

It's a very kind of like objectifying and dismissive term. A little fight with the wife. Could you say it in any more of a dismissive and objectifying way than that? Man gets in a fight, a little fight with the wife. The wife.

[B]

Well, and it's not just saying it. I mean, Donald Trump himself is credibly accused of sexual assault by more than two dozen women. Joining our coverage is executive director of Moms Demand Action, Angela. Angela Farrell Zabala. Christy and John are still here, Angela. For women who are victims of domestic violence, the trauma is so layered. And the truth is, the data that we have is believed to be just a sliver of the number of women who are actually victims of domestic violence, because for their children, most women don't come forward about physical, sexual, or threats of violence. What do you make of Donald Trump saying his crime statistics would be better except he had include data about, quote, little fights in the house with the wife?

[F]

I'm absolutely floored and disgusted. I would just stop and say if we pan out and really think about domestic violence, this is not a personal issue. This is not a matter something that just gets settled in the home. This is a community issue. We know when we think about domestic violence, those things easily spill into the community and become community violence, including the fact that when we see mass shootings, a Lot of those shooters have had a history of abuse or violence in their homes. So this is not just a private issue. This is a public health issue. And it's really disturbing. It undermines not only the survivors of domestic violence and folks that are doing the work to make sure that we're keeping communities safe. It also undermines law enforcement and other folks that have to answer this call, which is a very dangerous call most times. So this is something that is awful to hear, and I don't know if you know this, Nicole, but next month is National Domestic Violence Awareness Month, in time to make sure people are aware of what's going on and how we can do more to protect women and families across the country.

[B]

What is on the table in terms of gun safety for people who carry out acts of domestic violence, and where is Donald Trump on those issues?

[F]

Well, I can tell you here at Moms, Man Action, students of Man Action, every town, we have done a lot of work on this, working in partnership with folks that are leading domestic violence organizations across this country. And, you know, the biggest thing for us is we want to make sure that resources are getting into the hands of the survivors and victims of domestic violence so that they can continue their lives and we can fill in the gaps, help in the healing process, whatever that is. We also know there are proven policies and things that are going to help keep families safe and, you know, keep firearms out of the hands of domestic abusers that do not need to have access to a firearm. A woman or person in a situation like this is five times more likely to be shot and killed by her abuser or their abuser when they have access to a firearm. So there's so many things that we're working on and we can do make safe, and it's not undermining, trivializing, and stigmatizing domestic violence.

[B]

All right, everyone sticks around. We'll bring our table in. On the other side of a short break. Don't go anywhere. Donald Trump, who has been accused of sexual assault by at least 27 women, who has bragged about grabbing women and between the legs and been found liable for sexual abuse as mayor rhetoric. His little fight with the wife comment is the latest in a pattern, an alarming display of contempt for women publicly stated by members of the Trump administration. Take a look.

[E]

This is one of the great tricks.

[D]

That I think the sexual revolution pulled.

[E]

On the American populace, which is this.

[D]

Idea that, like, well, okay, these marriages.

[E]

Were fundamentally, you know, they were, they.

[D]

Were maybe even violent, but certainly they were unhappy.

[E]

And so getting rid of them and.

[D]

Making it easier for people to shift.

[E]

Spouses like they changed their underwear, that's going to make people happier in the long term. Did you ever engage in any acts of physical violence against any of your wives, Senator? Absolutely not. But you would agree with me that if someone had committed physical violence against a spouse, that would be disqualifying to serve as Secretary of Defense, correct, Senator? Absolutely not.

[D]

Have I ever done that?

[E]

You would agree that that would be a disqualifying offense, would you not, Senator?

[D]

You're talking about a hypothetical.

[E]

I don't think it's a hypothetical. Violence against spouses occurs every day. And if you as a leader are not capable of saying that physical violence against a spouse should be a disqualifying.

[C]

Fact.

[E]

For being secretary of the most powerful nation in the world, you're demonstrating an astonishing lack of judgment.

[B]

All the best, people. We're back with Angela Christie and John. This is, I guess I don't want to call it a backdrop because it's bigger than that. But this is what he brought in with him this time.

[C]

And his words are not empty words. He's actually following through with policy, too. He is restricting the access to these federal domestic violence grants, which allows these nonprofit organizations that support domestic violence victims. They need those grants to be able to function and to provide these necessary services. And now he has all these restrictions on them. He's cutting back. So it's not just what he says. Look at what he's doing. And his words matter in another respect because. Because so many of these domestic violence victims, they fear they're abusers. Yes, but they also have a good, healthy fear of law enforcement, of not being believed, of being ignored or that there will be consequences. Maybe they'll be charged with lying or they'll be sued for defamation. And so, I mean, I've prosecuted these cases before, both sex trafficking and domestic violence. And it is so hard as a prosecutor to get these victims to the table, to even want to come in and get their trust to talk to you. And when you have the President of the United States who claims he's now the chief law enforcement officer speaking in this way. And I mean, there is, I don't see how you're going to bring them in and have them trust that this Department of Justice is going to fight for them, is going to protect them. I just, again, you go back to even the prior segments where he's calling these women are standing on the steps of the Capitol. He's calling it a hoax. They're not, notifying the victims in the Epstein case of all the moves that they're making. Maxwell comes in, gives her, and then gets a country club prison stay. Like, all of this is, you know, part of a disturbing picture where you're really just telling these women who have suffered and been exploited that we're not going to protect you, we're not going to fight for you. We're more interested in what the perpetrators have to say. That is extremely troubling. It should be extremely troubling to anybody who cares about these women's issues.

[B]

You know, you mentioned the manosphere earlier and sort of the power and MAGA of the MAGA women. I mean, I mean, I'm not interested in MAGA becoming a political movement that lasts another 15 minutes. But to grab these issues back and to make it, you know, to sort of take the toxic out of toxic masculinity would certainly have a direct impact on the lives and the safety of women in this moment. Trump's gonna be there for at least another three years, three and a half years, right? Yeah.

[D]

And look, I mean, in Trump, Trump, it's natural that there's been this focus, not just because of the podcast voices and so on in the manosphere, but the fact that Trump gained more ground with men than he did with women. But Trump gained ground with women, too.

[E]

Correct.

[D]

Again, Democrats lost ground in almost every category, and that was one of the places where he gained ground. And I think that there's no question that if you're talking about what the challenges are that are before the Democratic Party, they're like all of them, basically. And in this area, there's no question that kind of trying to make some progress in this area would have a manifestly beneficial impact on the lives of a bunch of women, but also is important to the political dynamics. And I'll say one last thing, which is to go back to the top of our discussion today, I'm pretty sure that I'm right that I was watching Rachel Maddow, our colleague, last night on the air, and she played some of the Ghislaine Maxwell top Blanche discussion that we have the audio for, in which Julian Maxwell, I believe, says there are a bunch of your cabinet secretaries and your co workers who you value who moved in Jeffrey Epstein circle also.

[B]

What's that?

[D]

And the point. Well, she doesn't say. And the point of Rachel's this is in her open at the top of the A block at the top of the show was Todd Blanche does not follow up on that. There's a long pause and then he says he goes off to a different topic, making the point both about his not behaving like a real lawyer in that case and behaving more like Trump's personal lawyer than like the deputy attorney general of the United States. But it points to something, again, against that tape we just played that mashup. You know, I don't know who those people are. I'm not making accusations. But Jalene Maxwell Ashwell almost seemed like she wanted to tell a story. Had Ty Blanche followed up about the overlap between some of these people we just heard about and Jeffrey Epstein's world.

[B]

And let me just say I just said at least three and a half years. Donald Trump has gone in three and a half years. That's the end of his term. There is no scenario where he's there longer than three and a half years. And I guess my only point is there's no benefit for women, there's no benefit for men. There's no benefit for our country. And there may very well be some political benefit if these women decide that rhetoric normalizing violence against women is heinous. Yeah. That they could do some good and gain some ground. Angela Farrell, Zavala, thank you for being part of our coverage. Christy and John, thank you for spending the whole hour with us. We have to sneak in one more break. We'll be right back. Major escalation by Israel today in the Middle East. Israel struck against Hamas's senior leadership in Doha, the capital of Qatar. It is unclear whether the leaders targeted were killed, but smoke was seen over an area that is both residential and home to a number of foreign embassies. Qatar confirmed that a member of its internal security force was killed in the attack and a number of others were injured. Qatar has been viewed as a neutral country, helping mediate negotiations between Israel, the US And Hamas. But now a senior Qatari official directly involved in the talks tells NBC News that Qatar is assessing whether negotiations will continue, with the government calling the strike in a statement, quote, a blatant violation of all international laws and norms. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called the strike a, quote, wholly independent Israeli operation, though the US Was warned about the strike, according to three officials. We'll stay on top of that story after the break. For us, the leading Democrat on the oversight committee, Congressman Robert Garcia, will be our guest. His committee will be viewing more unredacted versions of the documents the Jeffrey Epstein estate has turned over to the committee. We'll get to all of that after a quick break.