← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
"An alarming set of warnings ahead of midterms"
00:41:45
Democrats are growing increasingly concerned that the Trump administration may weaponize our national security apparatus in order to subvert the 2026 midterm elections.
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Kristi Greenberg
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Alicia Menendez
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Mark Elias
Our
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Congressman Jim Himes
national elections are about seven months away, and plenty of Americans are worried that President Trump may indeed, as he said, take control. Meanwhile, we are not receiving the traditional indications or warnings of foreign intelligence efforts to interfere in those elections.
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Alicia Menendez
Hi everyone, it's five o' clock here in New York. I'm Alicia Menendez in for Nicole Wallace. An alarming set of warnings from Congressman Jim Himes as Democrats grow increasingly concerned that Donald Trump and his administration may weaponize our national security apparatus in order to subvert the 2026 midterm elections. That warning from Congressman Himes came during a House Intel Committee hearing where he pressed Director of National Intelligence Tulsi Gabbard on her role in the Trump FBI raid of Fulton County's election offices. Just watch.
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Congressman Jim Himes
Director Gabbard, as was well covered yesterday in January, you were present at the execution of an FBI warrant at the Fulton County, Georgia election office at the direction of the President and to all appearances in connection with the president's false claims about the 20 election. The unsealed affidavit submitted by the FBI made zero reference to foreign powers or outside interference. I don't want to relitigate the reasons why you were there, but I do want to know whether, as a result of your visit, there is credible intelligence in your possession pointing to foreign interference in Georgia in the 2020 election.
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Tulsi Gabbard
Thank you for the question, Ranking Member as you know, over each of the previous elections, there is an ongoing effort by different foreign entities.
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Congressman Jim Himes
Ma', am, it's a very spec question. Is there intelligence in your possession relative to foreign interference in the 2020 elections? Very simple, straightforward question.
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Tulsi Gabbard
We are continuing to look at previous attempts to interfere in our elections and any ongoing threats that may exist for the upcoming elections.
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Congressman Jim Himes
Okay. But can I assume that the answer to my question is no, that you have no specific intelligence related to foreign meddling in the Georgia election.
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Tulsi Gabbard
We are continuing to look into this matter.
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Jennifer Freeman
Yes or no question.
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Alicia Menendez
Trump's muddled claims around foreign interference have been the basis for his highly restrictive voting legislation, the SAVE act, with Trump refusing to sign any other bills until Congress passes it. Yet despite Trump's claims of the urgency of cracking down on this supposedly widespread problem, his own FBI director appeared to be in the dark about how many foreign nationals were actually voting. Just take a look.
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Congressman Jim Himes
Director Patel, how many active investigations does the FBI have into foreign individuals voting in US Elections?
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Congressman Jason Crow
We have a number of investigations, generally speaking, ongoing, about individuals across the country.
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Congressman Jim Himes
I'm asking for that number.
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Congressman Jason Crow
I don't have that number with me, but I have a number of them.
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Congressman Jim Himes
You have a number of investigations? Okay, Is that number 10,000? Is it closer to 10,000 or closer to 10?
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Congressman Jason Crow
It's probably somewhere in between.
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Congressman Jim Himes
Okay, will you please provide the committee with that number?
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Congressman Jason Crow
Yes, sir.
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Congressman Jim Himes
Okay. Director Patel, since you don't have the numbers, would it surprise you to know that the Heritage foundation, which is not exactly the Columbia University faculty Lounge, found only 77 instances of non citizen voting in the 24 years between 1999 and 2023, each of which face investigation by the appropriate authorities. So Heritage has a number of 77 examples in 24 years. Does that number surprise you?
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Congressman Jason Crow
No, because it's low.
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Alicia Menendez
And that is where we begin this hour. Voting rights attorney and founder of Democracy Document, Mark Elias is here, and Reverend Al Sharpton is still with me at the table. Mark Elias, your reaction to that head scratcher of a hearing?
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Mark Elias
I mean, I don't even understand what Cash Patel said at the end. I mean, like, yes, it's low because there are virtually no instances of non citizen voting in this country. So it is low. So I'm not really sure I understand the point he is making. Look, Republicans are spreading all kinds of lies and disinformation about voting because they know that if we have free and fair elections in 2026, they will lose. They'll lose the majority. And rather than trying to improve their policies, rather than trying to deal with an unpopular president, rather than trying to, you know, take a position on a. On an unpopular war or rein in inflation or deal with the tariff crisis that Donald Trump created, they're just standing by his side on everything. And instead, they are right now trying to make voting substantially harder for. For you and me, while giving Donald Trump more power to subvert the outcome if he doesn't like him.
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Alicia Menendez
Okay, so that's the piece that's about voter Dan I do want to talk about that and especially the fight that is happening right now in Congress. Mark, what did you make of Tulsi not being able to answer a very simple yes or no question about what she did or didn't find in Fulton County?
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Mark Elias
Well, I mean, look, there was no foreign interference in the 2020 election that affected the results, right? And so she doesn't want to say yes, she found it because then she's going to be caught in the position of having to produce something that doesn't exist. But Donald Trump doesn't want her saying no. So as a result, she winds up in this sort of cockamamie middle ground in which she neither says anything to answer the question and then sort of darkly suggests something else may be going on. But you know, the 2020 election was a free and fair election. It was reviewed by more than 60 courts. I was proud to represent President Biden in the Democratic Party in winning more than 60 of those cases. And, you know, no amount of lying and dissembling is going to change that fact. But lying and assembling will allow Donald Trump the predicate to threaten free and fair elections in 2026.
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Alicia Menendez
So Rev, let's talk about what's happening in Congress, because when pressed about voter ID laws, this is what Chuck Schumer told the Associated Press, quote, our objection as Democrats is not to a photo id. Senate Democratic Leader Chuck Schumer said this week when asked if he might negotiate with Republicans on the bill's requirements that voters show specified forms of identification when they vote. Our objection is that it's a voter suppression bill. That already feels to me like a moving of the marker if you have Chuck Schumer entertaining voter id.
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Reverend Al Sharpton
And I think that it's dangerous to establish that voter IDs, particularly when they prescribe it, that you're talking about a passport or something like that, in effect ends up being a poll tax because many people can't afford to go get a passport or many people can't afford to get the kinds of ID they want. But again, let's go to the first point. The premise of this is they are a solution looking for a problem. There are no real there is no real evidence that there's been this kind of voter fraud that they're talking about. We went through this 15 years ago with voter ID and the logic of this is I don't even understand why we're talking about it like it's logical. You're saying that Donald Trump closed down the borders. So they are illegals not coming in. He won the last election. So the illegals here are the ones that voted for him and voted for a Republican Congress and voted for a Republican House. I mean, who are you, who are you saying voted in 24, that you are now having to change the rules now when you won 24? Unless you're saying the illegals elected you and you want to make sure they can't elect Republicans again. I mean, we can't be that stupid.
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Alicia Menendez
Marcos, I'll take it a step further, which is if you look at any of the major metropolitan areas where you've seen ICE agents be deployed, Border Patrol agents be deployed, undocumented immigrants aren't leaving their homes to go to work. They're scared to go and do their jobs and provide for their family because they're going to run into these officials. They're not taken there Tuesday to head to the polls. The idea, as the Rev said, patently absurd. The data says it. You have Heritage saying it. I don't understand why Democrats are not standing there and holding that ground and why they seem to me, and you tell me if you think I'm wrong to be allowing the Overton window on this to shift ever so slightly.
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Reverend Al Sharpton
Yeah.
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Mark Elias
Look, the first thing we all need to keep in mind is that the SAVE act, which is the bill that's on the floor, and this is the bill we're all talking about, is not a voter ID bill. And by that, I don't mean that rhetorically. I mean literally, if you go back and look and trace the history of the SAVE act, as I did in a piece I recently wrote for Democracy Docket. It started in 2024 when, when Mike Johnson, the Speaker, was facing removal potential removal motion from Marjorie Taylor Greene, and he proposed a proof of citizenship law that we all know would disenfranchise millions of Americans, including lots of married women who change their last name. The ID provision that they now focus on didn't actually come into this bill in 2024 or even 2025 when House Republicans passed it twice. It was introduced in the most recent version in, in, in January. And what it does is it doesn't just say that you need ID to vote. It's quite prescriptive of what that idea is. But also, and I think the reverend sort of getting at this, it actually describes what ID can't count. So, for example, educational institutions, even if they are run by the state, you know, University of North Carolina, University of, University of Texas, those IDs, according to law can never count, never ever, ever count even if they have all of the same indicia and safeguards that every other state sponsored, you know, ID does. So look, we can have a long discussion about what, what the proper manner manner for people to identify themselves when they vote, whether it's just saying their name, whether it's presenting a utility bill, whether it's for example, if they're in a nursing home having their, their care caregiver swear under penalty of perjury. This is the patient. Like there are lots of ways we can have a discussion about id, but honestly none of these, none of this is what this bill is actually about.
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Alicia Menendez
Rev. I've been obsessed with this idea that Republicans, at least some Republicans believe that the SAVE act is going to target Democratic voters when in fact some of the constituencies that are most impacted by this are their own constituents. You have this reporting from the Washington Post about how it could hurt Republican led states more than Trump realizes. An analysis by the Washington Post found that a greater number of Republican held congressional districts have at least 5% of residents who would need to re register to vote because they are considered inactive voters. In Texas, Republicans were twice as likely as Democrats to lack easy access to documentary proof of citizenship. In Georgia, Republicans were more likely to report not having a copy of their birth certificate at all. And in both Georgia and Texas, Democrats were more likely to have multiple documents they could use as a form of voter id.
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Reverend Al Sharpton
No, this is a fact. I was in Houston just the day before yesterday and when you tell people what kind of vote ID they're talking about, you see people in a mostly red state that they're trying to turn purple begin to see that it affects them. Which is why many of us feel that it's really not about the act, it's about causing enough confusion to try and use other means to push back the midterm elections if not suspended totally because they cannot believe that the kinds of requirements they want for identification would even meet the qualifications of their own voters who voted for Donald Trump. So are we looking at them throwing out a lot of confusion and a lot of smoke so they can drive through the smoke and try to interfere with the election? That's my fear, is that they really are trying to do this over here so they can do this to us over here. And I think that's what we have to be careful of where this is going because the way the act reads it would damage them as much or more than it would damage Democrats.
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Alicia Menendez
You know Mark Elias, I am a subscriber to democracy docket. And I often get an email in from Mark Elias. And I can't tell if it's you emailing me or if it's democracy docket. But the subject line today stopped me in my tracks. The subject line of your email today was the week we became an autocracy. Tell me why you think this moment is an inflection point.
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Reverend Al Sharpton
Yeah.
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Mark Elias
So first of all, I wish I could tell you that it's not from me, but it is. So whenever you get an email from me from democracy docket, it is something I have written. And the look, the reason why this is the, this is the pivotal week is because we are watching as Republicans move from the acceptance of the abnormal state of affairs with Donald Trump and, you know, their unpopular policies to now really acting on them in the SAVE act and in the states where we're watching, you know, the seizure of ballots, where we're, we're watching this now at a strategic inflection point where it is really hard to say that what he is doing with the misuse of the criminal justice system and the election system is anything other than autocratic. I will note that you put on the screen my other piece in which I described Ted Cruz as the most hated man in the U.S. senate, and that if you read that, you'll see not only did Al Franken say that he that he likes Ted Cruz more than most of the senators and he hates Ted Cruz. Not only does it quote Lindsey Graham talking about Ted Cruz, but you got to read it to the end to see what John Boehner had to say.
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Alicia Menendez
Ooh. What we call a deep tease in this business. Rev, you have NPR reporting that while you got Republicans in Congress are trying to figure out what it is they're going to do here because so much, so much of this fight, the Republicans actually aren't all in alignment in Congress over the SAVE Act. There are fissures there. But you have state leaders, Republican state leaders who are saying, don't worry, going to handle this, which means that the defiance needs to come not just from Congress, but from state leaders who are going to very often be the final line of defense.
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Reverend Al Sharpton
It's going to have to come from state leaders and it's going to have to come from people in the state putting pressure on state leaders because elections are governed by states. And I think that when we look at the absurdity of what they're asking for as it comes down, they're the ones that are going to have to deal with, with this whole, let's say it passes, and I don't think it will. They're the ones that are going to have to go through this whole thing of checking new kinds of id. I mean, just the function of that alone would put a lot of pressure on the states when you, again, are trying to solve a problem that does not exist. So a lot of the state leaders must say, wait a minute, there is no fraud in my state. And you're going to add all of this, including, I'm going to need more personnel, I want to need more people, I'm going to need more equipment and a bigger budget. Where does this end? It's all folly and they know it. But it's about throwing around a smokescreen so that hopefully they can somehow interfere with the midterm elections.
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Alicia Menendez
Marcos, I know that you are an attorney and not a political prognosticator, but I'm going to ask you to play that role for a minute. I mean, I think the Senate staying this weekend, their talk about save Act. Do you have a sense of where this lands?
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Mark Elias
Yeah. You know, it's funny, I posted on social media yesterday that I actually expected the Republicans put on more of a show. I mean, this has actually been a pretty weak sauce effort on their part. I mean, they, you know, Ted Cruz and Mike Lee told us that they were going to do, you know, they were going to move heaven and earth and John Thune pretty much pulled the rug out from under them. They're not moving towards passing this bill. They're moving towards talking a whole lot and telling a whole lot of lies on the Senate floor, which is why I wrote about Ted Cruz. But ultimately, you know, you had Murkowski start off by saying she didn't even want the bill to be put forward. You know, it's not clear that they have 50 votes, no less 60 votes for, for final passage. If we even get to that. Wouldn't surprise me if Mike, John is sorry if John Thune just let them talk, talk, talk and then just pulled the bill down. So this bill is not going to pass. But that doesn't mean we can stop worrying because this bill has looked dead before and it has come back. And of course, Donald Trump has said that he's going to try to impose these things through executive order regardless of what Congress does. And I can promise Donald Trump, if he's watching, as soon as the ink hits the page on that executive order, we're going to sue you and we're going to win just like we did last time.
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Alicia Menendez
Going to play the tape back. Should that moment arise. Mark Elias, Reverend Al Sharpton. Thank you both so much for getting us started. Rev. We're going to see you tomorrow for Politics Nation. And when we return, from the threats to democracy to the threat of escalation in the Middle East. Congressman Jason Crow, who served three tours as an Army Ranger in Iraq and Afghanistan, is our next guest. Also ahead, the outrage continues to grow after this week's stonewalling by Attorney General Pam Bondi, but so far is refusing to testify under oath about her handling of the Epstein files. Reaction from one of the attorneys representing several of Epstein's survivors later in the hour. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Stay with us.
- [18:49]
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Tulsi Gabbard
The imminent nature of a threat is determined by the president based on a totality of the intelligence and information provided to him.
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Congressman Jason Crow
It didn't even show that there were attacks anticipated within the next 90 days from Iran.
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Tulsi Gabbard
It's too simplistic of a statement to say that because it depends on various scenarios occurring or not occurring.
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Congressman Jason Crow
Did those assessments show timelines for the threats that Iran posed to the United
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Tulsi Gabbard
States, the totality of threats? Yes, there were timelines involved where it applied and where that information was available. But again, to your question about the determination of imminence, the president makes that determination based on the totality of information and intelligence.
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Congressman Jason Crow
The bottom line is there is no imminent threat. And you know that.
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Alicia Menendez
Congressman Jason Crow of Colorado pressing Tulsi Gabbard, Trump's director of national Intelligence, in a hearing that left Americans with more questions than answers about why Trump has plunged the United States into a war with Iran. Congressman Jason Crow joins me now. He is a member of both the armed services and intelligence committees. Congressman, thanks for taking the time to be with Biggest takeaway from what you heard from the director of national Intelligence.
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Congressman Jason Crow
Well, Alicia, you say there are more questions than answers because they literally don't have the answers.
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Alicia Menendez
Right.
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Congressman Jason Crow
And the answers that they do have, they know people aren't going to go for. Right. People don't want to hear the fact that Donald Trump has done this without preparation, done this without strategy and without an off ramp, and has now plunged us into a war that we don't know how we're going to extricate ourselves from yet again, after 24 years of this and trillions of dollars spent and thousands of American lives spent on this global war on terror in this endless cycle of conflict. That's the bottom line here. And then the other thing that Tulsi Gabbard said as I continued my questioning is she admitted that the new ayatollah, which is the old ayatollah's second youngest son, is actually more extreme, more hardline and more volatile than his father was. So we have a long history of trading out dictators for another dictator and having that trade out not being good for us and not being better for us. You know, we spent 20 years and trillions of dollars in Afghanistan to trade the Taliban out for the Taliban. Right. We're just not good at regime change and nation building, and we have to get out of that business.
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Alicia Menendez
So perhaps an overly specific question, but on that, on the exchange you had there with the Director of National Intelligence about an imminent threat, I understand that part of what you were driving at was there or wasn't there, But I thought there was something also very strange in her answer, which was this idea that it is up to the president alone to determine whether or not there is an imminent threat. Does the president possess some magical powers that allow him to make that determination? Or in a normal administration, is that the role of intelligence community leaders?
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Congressman Jason Crow
Well, it should actually frighten every American, because it frightens me that Donald Trump has created this environment that only he is right, only he knows the ultimate truth. And if you dare dissent or question him, that you'll get your head chopped off or you'll get fired, or in my case, you will be subjected to an attempted indictment, since the President tried to put me in prison about a month ago. So he's created this environment which will lead to terrible results. Right. It is a common thing. It happens all the time that the intelligence agency, or at least it used to happen all the time, that the intelligence agencies of this country, they assess threats, where those threats are coming from, the magnitude of the threats, what we think will happen if those threats are carried out, and then really importantly, a timeline. You have to know how urgent or imminent it is, because that is what policymakers and leaders need to know when they're making decisions about how to prioritize and how to respond. And in the case of imminence threat, that's actually the law, right? The law requires an imminence for the President to be able to act alone, unilaterally, without congressional approval. And our entire intelligence apparatus and defense infrastructure seems to have completely washed their hands of that requirement.
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Alicia Menendez
Speaking of the legality and the necessity of imminence, we already have about 50,000 troops that have been deployed to the region. There's now reporting, the Wall Street Journal had it first. 2200 to 2,500 Marines are being sent from California. As someone who served in the Iraq War, a war that began 23 years ago today, I just wonder how you are metabolizing the fact that we have tens of thousands of US Soldiers who are now being sent to the region. Unclear to them, unclear to us what the mission is, what success looks like, and whether or not there is the real possibility here of Boots on the ground.
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Congressman Jason Crow
Well, it's personal to me and it's personal to the millions of working class Americans who had to do combat deployment after combat deployment. You know, the 7,000 plus families who now don't have their brothers and sisters and sons and daughters, the tens of thousands of others who continue to struggle daily with the invisible wounds and scars of these battles. And now here we are again. You know, the elites make decisions on their own here in Washington, in this case, Donald Trump and his minions at DOD in the CIA. And what happens is working class kids like those that I grew up with and those that I fought with and served shoulder to shoulder with me, they bear the burden. They're always the ones that have to do the fighting and dying. And it's the working class folks that have to actually pay for this. You know, that 5 to 8 trillion dollars came from taxpayers, largely working class, middle class taxpayers, because God knows Donald Trump doesn't pay his taxes. We already know that. Right. So he didn't pay for it. His family didn't do the fighting and the dying here. So the disproportionate burden in this country whenever we decide to go to war is truly appalling. And that's one of the reasons I came to Congress to fix. Right. I had enough of it. Congress needs to be put back in the driver's seat because that is how America gets put back in the driver's seat, by holding members of Congress accountable for votes, for appropriations, for spending that money. We have to go back to our communities and stand in high school gymnasiums and be held accountable for those votes. And we haven't. And it's time to start that again.
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Alicia Menendez
As a member of both the Armed Services and Intelligence Committees, is it your sense that this ends with boots on the ground?
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Congressman Jason Crow
Yeah. Sitting here today, I actually have asked this question and they haven't provided this answer. So I don't know one way or the other, which actually is a huge problem. But my sense is, reading the tea leaves, I think it's more likely than not than we are. Right. This president has said we've already won this war, we just haven't won it enough. They said it's not a war. They've actually called it three or four different things, so it's unclear what they think this is. And it continues to increase. We're spending $2 billion a day on this conflict. That's just the military cost, not to mention the damage to our infrastructure and the hundreds of soldiers who have already been wounded and those who have already been killed. Americans are actually paying over $300 million a day extra and gas prices alone. The costs of this are skyrocketing and it seems to be only increasing now because this president has not thought about the ramifications, did not take the advice of the professionals within the Department of Defense and the intelligence community who told him this is a bad idea, and there are a lot of scenarios that end very poorly for this country.
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Alicia Menendez
Congressman Jason Crow, thank you so much for your time today, for being with us. When we return, the fallout is growing after Attorney General Pam Bondi's report refusal this week to testify under oath about her handling of the Epstein files. Lifelock. How can I help?
- [29:40]
Tulsi Gabbard
The IRS said I filed my return, but I haven't.
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Alicia Menendez
What do I do?
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Jennifer Freeman
My refund, though.
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Congressman Jason Crow
I'm freaking out.
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Alicia Menendez
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Alicia Menendez
I'm so relieved.
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Congressman Jason Crow
No problem.
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- [30:56]
Alicia Menendez
There are growing concerns that Attorney General Pam Bondi will try to evade a bipartisan congressional subpoena to testify about her department's handling of the Epstein files. Those concerns reaching a fever pitch after the House Oversight Committee's explosive meeting with Fondi on Wednesday where Democrats stormed out. The chairman of that committee, Republican Congressman James Comer, accused Democrats of, quote, bitching and wasting everyone's time by pressing the attorney general for the transparency that the American public and survivors of Epstein's abuse deserve. Here's What Oversight Committee member Congresswoman Summer Lee told me last night about Chairman Comer's comments.
- [31:39]
IXL Advertiser
He does not have the temperament or perhaps the competence to be able to lead this committee. It shouldn't be this hard for us to get answers. We should not have to drag people to hold pedophiles accountable. It was a simple exchange. That he blew up like that is one, because there's no accountability and he doesn't expect any because there were no cameras and there were no witnesses outside of us. But two, he wouldn't talk that way to other people. He wouldn't talk that way. He. He wouldn't have blown up like that if he wasn't insecure about the questions that we were asking, if he wasn't insecure about people outside putting pressure on them to do the right thing. And he knows that Pam Bondi is in contempt of our previous subpoena and he's gonna let her be in contempt of this one.
- [32:28]
Alicia Menendez
I wanna bring in Jennifer Freeman. She is the attorney for several Epstein survivors and a special counsel at Marsh Law and legal analyst Kristi Greenberg. She is here. She is a former criminal division deputy chief at SDNY and host of the YouTube show Courtside. Jennifer, your reaction? Just everything that happened this week with
- [32:46]
Jennifer Freeman
Pam Bondi, once again, lack of accountability. You said it well. Evading responsibility. And this goes back to the original sin in 1996. I know I keep talking about it, but that is really where we have to start. When the FBI ignored Maria Farmer's report to the FBI about Epstein's sexual abuse and child pornography. And if only there had been some accountability and non evasion of responsibility at that time, we might be in a very different place. And I guess I wouldn't be speaking with you right now.
- [33:19]
Alicia Menendez
You wouldn't be speaking with her right now. And you are right. I am glad that you always go back to 1996, because I think it is actually mission critical to understand just how long this has gone on. The number of presidential administrations this has spanned, the number of jurisdictions this has spanned. And I wonder, Jennifer, when the person who runs the Department of Justice refuses to comply with a subpoena that has been issued by a House committee, what message does that send to survivors?
- [33:53]
Jennifer Freeman
That they're not important once again, that they're at the bottom of the barrel, that it doesn't matter. You don't have to reject their names, you don't have to give them what the law required you to do. It just puts them, again, feeling like there's they're not being heard and they're being dismissed. And there's much more powerful forces here, whether it's the powerful men or the lawyers or the, or the accountants or the doctors. I mean, there's been so many people that are now claiming, you know, this willful. Now looking at willful ignorance, just willful ignorance, just saying, I didn't see anything. I didn't see anything. And so no one saw anything. And that is just very hard for the survivors to accept.
- [34:41]
Alicia Menendez
Which is why, Christy, there's so much demand to actually see these documents. A group of Democrats, they sent a letter to Bondi yesterday. These were their demands for reviewing the files. They said she needs to allow lawmakers access to all the files, ensure the documents are fully unredacted, provide lawmakers with a reasonable number of computers to view the documents on, allow a select group of congressional staff to view the documents, and not allow monitoring, tracking of member searches. It didn't need to be this difficult, Kristi.
- [35:15]
Kristi Greenberg
It doesn't. But it's so predictable. I mean, you know, I think it's been months at this point where they haven't released more than half the files. I mean, there are millions of documents out there. I mean, they hid a number of documents for bogus reasons that the act doesn't permit. Bondi isn't providing answers. I mean, we saw how she behaved when she was under oath. She wanted to talk about everything but the Epstein files, the Dow, other crimes, other criminals, anything except for Epstein. I mean, we've seen what's been going on, and it's been happening for months. And so, I mean, I think we're just, we're past the point of these letters at this point. We're past the point of sending a memo. I just, I'm waiting for what the plan is like. If the answer truly is that Democrats can't hold her in contempt because they don't have the majority in Congress or they can't sue her and DOJ because they don't have the majority in Congress. It would be nice if they said that and they said this is, we're in the minority. We can't do these things to actually get an answer, a solution to this problem. That would be a good argument for the midterms, but I'm not hearing that. It's just, it's, it's a lot of, a lot of requests that she just says no to. And so I would just like to understand and hear in concrete terms from Democrats, what is the plan? Can they actually do anything? Or if they can't is the idea that put us in the majority vote us in in the midterms, and then here are the things that we will do. But these, these letters are. I mean, they're just a waste of time. She's not going to do anything. We've, we've seen that she says that she's done.
- [37:01]
Alicia Menendez
I think, Jennifer, on some level, it is multiple tracks that are all moving at the same time. Right. There are the answers that Bondi can offer, but there are also these depositions that we're seeing. Kahn Indyke. Right. The fact that we are beginning to get a glimpse into the infrastructure around Jeffrey Epstein. Yes, a lot of these folks have been evasive, but it is amazing to me, all these years later, that there are still new nuggets of information that we are beginning to learn that paint a fuller picture of the way in which this organization, for lack of a better term, was running.
- [37:40]
Jennifer Freeman
That's a very good point, Alicia. The reality is that we kept hearing there was no credible evidence of any kind of sexual trafficking or abuse or anything else. But the reality was that they failed to do a proper investigation. They didn't speak to these people. They should have spoken to the various men that had been identified. They should have spoken to the lawyer, the accountant. And one way they could have gone forward and they could have go forward today is to give immunity to one of Epstein's lieutenants and then talk to that person. An insider is the best, one of the best people to talk to, to really get the story. And they did none of that. Just like they haven't talked to the survivors. And Pam Bondi, you know, looks at looks, doesn't look behind her when they're, they're standing behind her and saying that you never, you never wanted to speak with us. It's just over and over a failure to do their job.
- [38:36]
Alicia Menendez
I have more questions for both of you, but we need to sneak in, sneak in a quick break. We'll be right back. We are back with Jennifer and with Kristi. Kristi, you had Congressman Dan Goldman bring one of those unredacted files to the House floor this week. It raises doubts. These doubts have been raised before about Trump's claims that he kicked Epstein out of Mar? A Lago. That file was left almost completely redacted when it was released to the public. Can you imagine sort of under what qualifications it would have all been redacted?
- [39:13]
Kristi Greenberg
No, I mean, Congressman Goldman is 100% right that there's no basis to have redacted that information. There's no privilege that could apply to that information. It's just embarrassing and it destroys Donald Trump's narrative. And that appears to have been the reason that they redacted it, because, again, there is no legitimate reason to have redacted it. And again, that's exactly what the act was designed to prevent. Anything that could be embarrassing or reputationally harmful. That is not a basis to withhold information. So that's just one very clear example that we've seen where the redactions are inappropriate. And again, it begs the question of, okay, so then what are we going to do about it? We know they're redacting information they shouldn't. How do you then hold them accountable for that? One way is what Congressman Goldman did is showing us the unredacted document. I'd like to see more of that, more examples where we see that the redactions are inappropriate, where they show us the documents, because I think that really drives home the point that there is a cover up here.
- [40:19]
Alicia Menendez
There are so many questions and there's so much that people want to know. Nicole this week for her podcast, she spoke to Miami Herald investigative reporter Julie K. Brown. It's an incredible conversation. I want you to listen to just a part of it.
- [40:38]
Kristi Greenberg
What is your sense of how much remains unknown about his crimes and his victims?
- [40:47]
L
I don't think we have a handle yet on exactly how big it is and how much it involved. I'm in them almost every day, hours and hours and hours. And as you're looking for things to do with that piece, you inevitably find another piece and then you're off to the races on the next piece. So there's so many pieces in here and unfortunately, nobody has really put them together, including the Justice Department and our own government agencies. It's clear that they never explored any of these angles and that they just. I don't know what they were doing, just throwing these documents in a file drawer somewhere. Because it's just amazing to me that there's so many threads of inquiry that I don't see any evidence that they followed.
- [41:34]
Alicia Menendez
Jennifer, I wonder one if that rings true with your experience and what you know, based on the survivors you represent. I think that disinterest that Julie K. Brown references, there is one we have all seen play out throughout this process. Process. But finally, this idea of threads that need to be connected, why has that remained so elusive?
- [41:58]
Jennifer Freeman
I wish I understood that. Because going back to the original sin in 1996, when Maria Farmer's report to the FBI about Epstein's crimes was ignored, why? We don't know why they were ignored. Why didn't the FBI do anything about that? And that's just emblematic of what so many things that we don't know. And you say that there's, again, there's no credible evidence here, but there really isn't sufficient evidence. There isn't sufficient follow up. As Julie Brown was saying, there hasn't been true investigation. I mean, another thing they could be doing, they could be trying to get the copies of settlement agreements with plaintiffs attorneys. I'm guessing that there are quite a few of those with other powerful people. That's another way to go about this. So there's lots and lots of threads to follow. And the survivors were very frustrated that they haven't been followed. And we are hopeful that they will be in the future. But skeptical, honestly skeptical. And that's disturbing.
- [43:01]
Alicia Menendez
We have less than a minute left. But Christy Greenberg, some of this is institutional and I get that SDNY is not the doj, but you do have a sense of what it is like to be in an office that is inundated with claims and there are decisions that are made every day about which paths to pursue, which pieces of information are going to lead you somewhere. When you hear Julie K. Brown, who knows this case better than perhaps anyone, say they, they just had all this stuff and they didn't even look at it. Does that, does that comport with your own experience?
- [43:35]
Kristi Greenberg
You know, it's really tough. It's easy to, you know, play Monday, play quarterback essentially and say this is what they should have done. But I mean, some of this evidence just on its face raises questions that are very worthy of investigation. Now, just looking at some of the money, follow the money, kind of a basic thing that anybody would do in an investigation. You have, for example, Epstein's accountant, Epstein's lawyer, signing checks of over a million dollars to young women. Well, you signed the checks. You're saying you don't know what this was for. It wasn't for massaging. Nobody's paying a million dollars to their masseuses. I mean, you know, like, there are things that kind of jump off the page. He had over 140 bank accounts, you know, moving money back and forth. That's a red flag for money laundering. So these are the kinds of things that, yeah, as somebody who prosecuted sex trafficking cases, I would certainly look at and want to explore.
- [44:34]
Alicia Menendez
Jennifer Freeman, Christy Greenberg, thank you both so much for being with us today. And you can hear more from reporter Julie K. Brown on the new episode of the Best People podcast. Just scan the QR code on your screen to become a premium subscriber. You'll be able to listen right away. Nicole's conversation with Julie K. Brown will be available to everyone starting this coming Monday. When we return, yet another legal setback for Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. We're going to tell you about that after a quick break. Another legal legal setback for Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. A judge ruling that he overstepped his legal authority when he declared last year that gender affirming care for young transgender people does not meet medical standards of care. The ruling provides temporary relief for the coalition of 21 states trying to stop the Trump administration from removing funding for hospitals providing gender transition care. But it's been an entire week of court losses for Kennedy. A district judge paused his effort to reduce the childhood vaccine schedule he has pushed and his effort to install more than a dozen new members to the CDC's vaccine panel. In one single ruling, the judge essentially nullified Kennedy's crusade to reshape the country's vaccine policies. And the Wall Street Journal is reporting that White House aides, quote, decided to take a more active role in managing Kennedy's department in the face of polling that shows his vaccine moves were unpopular. Tough week for Maha. Gonna sneak in another break. We'll be right back. Thanks for spending part of your Friday with us. I'm gonna be back in one hour alongside Simone Sanders Townsend and Michael Steele on the weeknight. Senator Richard Blumenthal is among our guests this year.
- [46:17]
Kristi Greenberg
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Kristi Greenberg
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- [46:34]
Alicia Menendez
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