“An alarming sign”

Summary

Podcast Summary: “An Alarming Sign”

Podcast: Deadline: White House
Host: Nicolle Wallace (MSNBC)
Air Date: October 22, 2025

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Overview

This episode, titled “An Alarming Sign,” zeroes in on escalating authoritarianism in the Trump administration's second term, targeting of political enemies, use of military force without evidence, and attacks on American institutional norms. Nicolle Wallace anchors a sobering hour-long exploration of these developments, joined by notable guests: former CIA Director John Brennan, Senator Richard Blumenthal, MSNBC’s Ken Delaney, and film producer/screenwriter Noah Oppenheim.

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Major Topics & Key Discussion Points

1. Trump’s “Revenge Tour”

(Main segment: 01:03–21:32)

Targeting of Political Enemies (Brennan, Comey, and Others)

• Nicolle Wallace introduces Trump’s repeated calls for prosecution of former FBI Director Jim Comey and former CIA Director John Brennan, including current GOP efforts to prosecute Brennan based on his past testimony regarding the Steele dossier and Russian election interference.

• Brennan calls these efforts “unsurprising” but “ludicrous,” noting repeated bipartisan investigations (by Marco Rubio and John Durham, among others) found no wrongdoing on his part.

  • Quote – John Brennan (03:40):

    “Jim Jordan now, I think, is trying to twist my words and misrepresent and mischaracterize the facts as a way to play to and be a supplicant to Donald Trump…”

• Wallace and Brennan discuss Trump’s obsession with discrediting the Russia investigation, as well as his seemingly unending need to attack those who challenge or investigate him.

  • Quote – John Brennan (05:45):

    “He is a very, very sensitive and insecure individual… I think he believes, maybe with some justification, that Russian interference in that election did help him be victorious. And so he's trying to discredit the assessments that were done…”

The Putin–Trump Dynamic in Term Two

• Brennan analyzes Putin’s harsher treatment of Trump and increased Russian aggression against Ukraine. He contrasts Putin as “playing chess” while Trump “is nowhere near in the same chess league.”
  • Quote – John Brennan (08:39):

    “Vladimir Putin is not going to budge ... he feels as though he can outlast Trump because Trump will go back and forth depending on the latest whim that he has... Putin is a very, very experienced world player and he's playing chess. And Donald Trump is nowhere near in the same chess league as Vladimir Putin.”

On Personal Harassment and Legal Threats

• Wallace and Brennan address the personal toll and constant legal threats facing former officials. Brennan expresses anger, sadness, and the need to continue standing up for democracy.

  • Quote – John Brennan (10:04):

    “…I'm saddened by what has happened. Sometimes I'm dispirited and disheartened at the same time. I feel motivated to be able to stand up. And I'm glad that other people are standing up as well.”

Concerns About Threats to Obama and Rule of Law

• Brennan refuses to dismiss the possibility of the Trump White House targeting former President Obama, tying these moves to a broader disregard for norms and abuse of power.

Wallace Highlights White House Spokesperson’s Disinformation

(12:51–14:58)

• Wallace plays a clip of the White House press secretary pushing the debunked narrative that the Obama administration tried to sabotage Trump's victory, noting that “none of that is true.” Brennan confirms the “blatant disinformation” and recounts efforts to ensure a fair transition in 2016.
  • Quote – John Brennan (14:58):

    “…that's the democratic way. That's what we're supposed to be doing… The irony is that despite our efforts to do that, now they're blaming us.”

2. Ken Delaney’s Reporting and Perspective

(17:27–20:28)

• Delaney contextualizes Jim Jordan’s criminal referral, noting it recycles old, misrepresented claims about Brennan’s role. He lauds Brennan for speaking publicly, noting many former officials under investigation have chosen silence.

  • Quote – Ken Delaney (18:09):

    “…the allegations in that Jim Jordan criminal referral, it's almost a word game… what Director Brennan wrote in his memoir and has said for years… was not linked in any way to the conclusions…”

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3. Expansion of U.S. Military Strikes Without Evidence

(24:17–34:23; Blumenthal segment)

Unexplained Strikes; Lack of Oversight

• Wallace reports new Pentagon strikes on boats in the Pacific, allegedly drug-related, with at least 30 deaths and zero provided evidence. She interviews Senator Richard Blumenthal, who confirms Congress has been given no evidence, details, or justification.

  • Quote – Blumenthal (25:29):

    “…no evidence and and no information. As a member of the Armed Services Committee, I would expect that we'd be given some briefings about the facts here…”

• Blumenthal points out U.S. strikes target vessels with negligible impact on the fentanyl trade, which mostly comes from Mexico.

• Blumenthal highlights the absence of military outreach or oversight, stresses the bipartisan need for hearings, and voices alarm at the “police state tactics” increasingly employed.

ICE & CBP Abuses and Lawlessness

• Blumenthal links lawlessness in military strikes to ICE/CBP abuse, where he and Rep. Garcia are investigating unlawful detainment of U.S. citizens for days without communication or charges.

  • Quote – Blumenthal (29:46):

    “…there is a through line here, very tragically and alarmingly, the use of military force against these boats in the Caribbean and now the Eastern Pacific the lawlessness there and the lawlessness of ICE and CPB…”

East Wing Demolition and Corporate Corruption

• Wallace and Blumenthal discuss televised images of the destruction of the White House East Wing, calling it “unforgivable” and an “icon destroyed” without authority or transparency, bankrolled by major corporate donors likely seeking regulatory favors.
• Blumenthal calls for full Congressional investigation, pointing to rising authoritarianism and destruction of rule of law.

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4. “A House of Dynamite” — Nuclear Threats, Institutions, and Leadership

(35:23–47:48; Oppenheim segment)

Reality-Based Political Thriller

• Wallace interviews screenwriter Noah Oppenheim about his new film “A House of Dynamite,” which viscerally dramatizes the 18-minute window for U.S. leaders to respond to a nuclear missile detection.

• Oppenheim and Wallace discuss how the film honors ordinary civil servants and the reality that all nuclear launch decisions fall to a single individual — the president.

  • Quote – Noah Oppenheim (40:20):

    “…inside these rooms are ordinary human beings, moms, husbands, ordinary people. And it's going to depend on them what the outcome is.”

Connection to Civil Service Under Attack

• The conversation flows into broader reflections about Trump's attacks on the civil service and national security agencies.
• Wallace and Oppenheim mourn the loss of public regard for selfless service.

On Covering the Demolition of the White House

(46:45–47:48)

• Oppenheim responds as a former NBC News president, stating journalists must document these events rigorously and refuse to “shy away” from the reality.

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5. The Rule of Law and Fragility of the Constitution

(48:23–48:47)

• Wallace closes with a quote from Charlamagne tha God, lamenting “the rule of law does not exist in America,” and that the Constitution is “a very, very fragile document right now,” highlighting pervasive doubts about American democracy’s durability amid current events.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• John Brennan on Trump’s Motives (05:45):

  “He is a very, very sensitive and insecure individual. I think he believes maybe with some justification, that Russian interference in that election did help him be victorious…”

• John Brennan on Personal Impact (10:04):

  “…I'm saddened by what has happened. Sometimes I'm dispirited and disheartened at the same time. I feel motivated to be able to stand up.”

• John Brennan on Disinformation (14:58):

  “That is blatant disinformation, clearly. That's why I think they're going to go to any lengths to continue to pursue their objectives, which again is to crush whatever opponents perceived and real.”

• Ken Delaney on Jordan’s Referral (18:09):

  “...the allegations in that Jim Jordan criminal referral, it's almost a word game when you read it…”

• Senator Blumenthal on Strikes Without Oversight (25:29):

  “No evidence and no information. As a member of the Armed Services Committee, I would expect that we'd be given some briefings about the facts here…”

• Senator Blumenthal on ICE & CPB Abuse (29:46):

  "There is a through line here, very tragically and alarmingly, the use of military force against these boats...and the lawlessness of ICE and CPB in detaining United States citizens..."

• Noah Oppenheim on Civil Servants (40:20):

  “…you peel back the curtain and inside these rooms are ordinary human beings, moms, husbands, ordinary people. And it's going to depend on them what the outcome is.”

• Charlamagne tha God (48:23):

  “…the rule of law does not exist in America. The Constitution is a very, very fragile document right now.”

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Key Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:03 | Trump’s attacks on Brennan/Comey—Wallace’s framing | | 03:40 | John Brennan: reaction to prosecution referral | | 05:36 | Brennan on Trump’s obsession with rewriting 2016 | | 08:00 | Wallace & Brennan: Putin, Ukraine, and Trump’s new humiliation | | 10:04 | Brennan on personal strain of being targeted | | 12:51 | Wallace: White House Press Secretary’s disinformation (clip) | | 14:58 | Brennan: Disinformation and fair transitions versus Trump’s claims | | 17:27 | Ken Delaney: Context for criminal referral, media responsibility | | 24:17 | New Pentagon strikes on boats—Wallace’s intro, Sen. Blumenthal interview | | 25:29 | Blumenthal: No evidence for claims, oversight needed | | 29:46 | Blumenthal: Lawlessness in ICE/CPB detaining U.S. citizens | | 31:00 | Live images of White House East Wing’s destruction | | 34:52 | “A House of Dynamite” film discussion—Oppenheim interview | | 40:20 | Oppenheim: Civil servants, ordinary people under pressure | | 46:45 | Oppenheim: How journalists should cover White House demolition | | 48:23 | Charlamagne tha God: “Rule of law does not exist in America” |

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Tone & Takeaways

The tone is urgent, somber, and unvarnished—especially as guests confront the normalization of vindictive governance and the weakening of democratic foundations. Guests are candid and sometimes emotional, underscoring the gravity and historic abnormality of the Trump administration’s second-term behavior.

• Key Takeaway: Longstanding, bipartisan norms and legal principles are under direct assault by the White House, with escalating efforts to criminalize dissent and rewrite public memory of Trump’s first term.
• Alarming Trends: Political prosecutions, extrajudicial military actions, corporate collusion with government abuses, demonization and targeting of civil servants, and erasure of critical oversight.
• Defiant Transparency: Even as personal and professional risks grow, figures like John Brennan remain committed to speaking out; journalists and public servants are praised for upholding honesty and resisting the erosion of facts.

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Conclusion

This episode encapsulates a turbulent and alarming chapter in U.S. political history, offering an incisive, sometimes chilling look at how quickly and thoroughly democratic guardrails can be tested—and highlighting the courage of those still fighting to uphold the truth.

Transcript

[Senator Richard Blumenthal]

When work gets crazy, I like to.

[John Brennan]

Stop by the bar after, have a few cold ones.

[Nicole Wallace]

I don't drink at all until 4 o'.

[John Brennan]

Clock. We limit ourselves to one bottle of wine a night.

[Noah Oppenheim]

Excessive drinking has a way of sneaking up on us. A few drinks, a few nights a week, it can add up and suddenly we're at greater risk for long term problems like heart disease, cancer and depression. Reason enough to rethink the drink. More [e-mail] Noha Initiative It's Cybersecurity Awareness.

[John Brennan]

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[Noah Oppenheim]

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[John Brennan]

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[Noah Oppenheim]

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[John Brennan]

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[Noah Oppenheim]

Terms apply.

[John Brennan]

I think they're very dishonest people. I think they're crooked as hell and maybe they have to pay a price for that. I believe they are truly bad people and dishonest people. So whatever happens, happens.

[Nicole Wallace]

Hi again Everybody. It's now 5 o' clock in New York. Those comments made by Donald Trump about former FBI Director Jim Comey and former Director of the CIA John Brennan land a little differently after the series of political indictments of several of Donald Trump's critics, including that of Jim Comey himself. Months after those comments and a referral by CIA Director John Ratcliffe, comes a renewed push from House Republicans to prosecute John Brennan. In a letter to Attorney General Pam Bondi, Congressman Jim Jordan referred Brennan for prosecution over statements he made to Congress about the use of a now discredited dossier on alleging ties between the Russian government and Donald Trump, claiming that Director Brennan lied in testimony about the use of the dossier in assessments about Russian meddling in the 2016 election. On our program back in July, Brennan said that all of these allegations are a retread of ground that has been, quote, fairly well and exhaustively plowed. And he is right. Marco Rubio and Special counsel John Durham, who was appointed by Trump's handpicked Attorney General Bill Barr, feel the same way. Durham spent four years and $6.5 million and found no criminal wrongdoing on Director Brennan's part. Neither did that Rubio led investigation by the Senate Intelligence Committee, of course, chaired by the guy who's now Donald Trump's Secretary of State. He boasted at the time of the Release of his report, quote, no probe into this matter has been more exhaustive than his. Congressman Jamie Raskin, the top Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee, said this in a statement, quote, committee Republicans are dredging up old testimony from Trump foes, even when the statute of limitations has already run, in the hopes of finding something, anything that could please their boss, Donald Trump. The allegations of lying are flimsy, slipshod, and contradictory. A new chapter in Donald Trump's efforts to pursue one of the key investigators of Russia's attack on the 2016 presidential election in this country is where we start the hour. So, new tactics, same story. What is your response to Jim Jordan getting in the action?

[John Brennan]

Well, it's clear that that's exactly what he's doing. He's trying to get into the action of Trump's revenge tour. As I've said several times on this program, as well as in congressional testimony, I have cooperated with all these inquiries and investigations of the government. I have explained exactly what transpired during the Russian interference in 20. And Jim Jordan now, I think, is trying to twist my words and misrepresent and mischaracterize the facts as a way to play to and be a supplicant to Donald Trump, which is why he's making this referral now to the Department of Justice. But as you pointed out, I've said before, this ground has been retread and plowed numerous times, and I even wrote about it in my memoir exactly what happened there. Why, oh, why would I have any motivation to not tell the truth to Congress about this? Because it's already a matter matter of public record.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, and you've been investigated by some of the closest allies to Donald Trump. Marco Rubio now has a couple of jobs in his administration. The Senate Intelligence Committee spent how many hours with you?

[John Brennan]

Numerous hours. You know, I spent eight hours with John Durham. I spent multiple sessions with the Senate Intelligence Committee. I appeared before the House Intelligence Committee as well, again, going through all of this, trying to make sure that they understood clearly. But clearly, Jim Jordan wants to be able to satisfy Donald Trump in terms of going after Donald Trump's critics, which I am one of. And I have been outspoken when I see that Donald Trump is doing things wrong. So, again, it's as unsurprising as it is ludicrous in terms of this referral that he's made to the Department of Justice. And so I am prepared to respond in whatever way I need to to say that these are fallacious charges, that the record is there. I have consistently and clearly explained exactly what I did, the actions I took, and what happened during this 20.

[Nicole Wallace]

Why do you think Trump is so obsessed with rewriting the history of his win in 2016?

[John Brennan]

I think you'd have to ask him. And I know he's not going to appear on your program, but clearly he is a very, very sensitive and insecure individual. I think he believes maybe with some justification, that Russian interference in that election did help him be victorious. And so he's trying to discredit the assessments that were done, the intelligence that is there. He continues to go back at this and that's why they keep talking about the Russia hoax. The Russia hoax? No. As you pointed out, the conclusions that the intelligence community reached have been validated numerous times by these bipartisan committees in the Senate and these studies that have been done. So he's still trying to, again, refute what is clearly obvious, I think, to anyone right minded individual that Russia interfered on behalf of Donald Trump in 2016. And rather than focus on all the things that need to be done in this country, trying to take care of all the challenges we face domestically and internationally, he continues to go back over that. Again, there's something that is deeply flawed about Donald Trump in terms of his having to go after these enemies, even though he has enormous political power, much more so than any previous president. And he's exercising that, he's pushing the boundaries of it, but still he feels as though he has to vanquish his rivals, vanquish his opponents. And what I find most shocking is that his base, his MAGA base, continue to be hoodwinked by a world class charlatan. I mean, I was watching your program in terms of, you know, the east wing of the White House, my goodness, a place that is sacred, you know, in terms of our political system. And they're allowing him to do this. And it's just one more symbol of his tearing down all the things that have made this country great for so many years. The types of actions that he's taking against undocumented workers here, tearing families apart, going after Medicaid recipients, the types of things that again, seem so inconsistent with American values. And he should be really addressing the cost of living issues, other types of things as well as on the international stage, whether you're talking about cyber threats or the China threat or Ukraine and other things. Why he continues to focus on this, I think is just beyond me.

[Nicole Wallace]

One of the things that is a hallmark of this term is that Putin seems even more committed to publicly embarrassing Donald Trump. There seemed to be a dance between the two of them from the outside. Again, not even his own advisors knew everything that happened in the first term. But after meeting with Donald Trump and after talking with Donald Trump, Putin has unleashed some of the most lethal and brutal attacks against Ukraine, in some instances targeting the civilians. Just as someone who understands America's adversaries, why do you think Putin is humiliating Trump so publicly this time?

[John Brennan]

I think because some of the things that Trump has said publicly and the fact that Trump has said publicly that he's going to sort of resolve this conflict and the things he said that, you know, Ukraine should get back territory, whatever. Putin is determined to be able to swallow up as much of Ukraine as possible. He's not going to give in to Donald Trump. And I think he realized when they met in Alaska that Donald Trump really doesn't have a viable plan to be able to resolve this conflict. He's just going to try to use his influence or sway in the might of the United States. But Vladimir Putin is not going to budge from his determination again to take as much of that territory as possible. And he feels as though he can outlast Trump because Trump will go back and forth, depending on the latest whim that he has. He's going to favor Russia or say he's going to support Ukraine or whatever. Putin is a very, very experienced world player and he's playing chess. And Donald Trump is nowhere near in the same chess league as Vladimir Putin.

[Nicole Wallace]

When you hear something or there's a new development on the efforts to target you and harass you, what do you do? Do you sort of gird yourself for a call from your lawyer that DOJ has been in? I mean, do you. Because if you watch the. The Comey indictment and you watch Tish James, like they will cross lines that even Trump didn't cross in the first term, what are you prepared for?

[John Brennan]

Well, when these things happen, I certainly get mad. I get angry. I also get sad that this is the state of our country and the state of our politics these days. The fact that individuals like a Jim Jordan are going to go after somebody. I served nearly three and a half decades in public service, a lot involved in counterterrorism in the aftermath of 9 11. They don't care about doing things like this to destroy individuals, to go after me, to hurt me and my family and others. And so, you know, I'm saddened by what has happened. Sometimes I'm dispirited and disheartened at the same time. I feel motivated to be able to Stand up. And I'm glad that other people are standing up as well. And I see that more and more people are starting to realize what Donald Trump is all about. And so I'm hoping that the Republicans in Congress, I know it's a, you know, it's a wish that I've had for quite a while. They're really going to draw the line. And when they look at what's happened again to the White House, it's so such a vivid depiction of what's going on to this country. But the abuse of power, the desecration of the rule of law, the fact that Donald Trump continues to do these things, why are they continuing to allow it? I think it's going to hurt Republicans in the long term. And just doing this right now to be able to satisfy the whims of Donald Trump again, I just, I never thought we would face a situation like this throughout the course my career.

[Nicole Wallace]

Do you take seriously threats from the White House that they want to examine President Barack Obama?

[John Brennan]

I wouldn't dismiss anything that the White House may be musing about. And they've talked about this grand conspiracy. And it's amazing just watching Donald Trump speak, the projection in terms of these are really dishonest and bad people and whatever. I mean, you look at the corruption that's taking place. He's going to shake down the American taxpayer for a quarter of a billion dollars because he felt aggrieved, because the former Department of Justice investigations. Right. Full investigations of him, the types of things that he's doing. So I am prepared to be able to respond whatever way I need to. And I'm going to continue to tell my story. But again, I'm just hoping that people are going to start to wake up and do what is right, don't do what is politically expedient. And so many individuals, I'm so concerned that a lot of the political winds that are blowing, people want to go and see what's going to be most beneficial for them in the near term, while they're not taking into account the impact it's having on our country, on our society, on our people, on our children. The language that Donald Trump uses to not just discredit, but also to condemn and curse basically at his opponents. Is this the society that we want to grow up in?

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, I want to show you something that I resurfaced and watched again after, after the Comey indictment and after reading about Jim Jordan. This is. You talked about the White House as musing. I mean, this is. And I And I platform this with a lot of forethought. I've thought about doing this for a long time. I want to play this in the spirit of what you just said, because I wonder if this grand conspiracy you just alluded to is this thing that might break their movement. Let me show you what the White House press secretary said from behind the podium in the White House briefing room in July. While publicly pretending to engage in a peaceful transfer of power in private, former President Obama went to great and nefarious lengths to try to sow discord among the public and sabotage his successor, President Trump. The new evidence released by the Director of National Intelligence who is here with me today, confirms that the Obama administration manufactured politicized intelligence, which was later used as the justification for baseless smears against President Trump in an effort to try to delegitimize his victory before he even took the oath of office. We'll fact check it quickly. None of that is true. The opposite happens, right? The opposite happens. Crossfire. Hurricane is open. No one mentions it. The public never knows. Donald Trump is never smeared by President Barack Obama. Your first testimony, I remember covering it live, was that either wittingly or unwittingly, no one ever made any assumptions about whether he even knew what Russia did to interfere in the 2016 election. That is something she's reading off a piece of paper that is incorporating the smear against you that Ratcliffe made after his own workforce draws a very different conclusion than what Ratcliffe posts on social media about his own workforce's conclusion. What should we at least not fail to imagine as possible?

[John Brennan]

Well, that is blatant disinformation, clearly. That's why I think they're going to go to any lengths to continue to pursue their objectives, which again is to crush whatever opponents perceived and real. The irony of it is that I was there during that transition. I was there in 2016. The Obama administration, we went to great lengths to try to prevent any leaks of this damaging information about people around Donald Trump and their engagements with the Russians, Mike Flynn and Kislyak, any number of them. We try not to do that. And even the statement that Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson and DNI Jim Clappert put out in October made no reference of Russia's favoring of Donald Trump. We wanted to play it as straight as possible because that's the democratic way. That's what we're supposed to be doing. I was there for the transition from the Bush administration to the Obama administration. It really was an eye watering example of how a Republican and a Democratic administration and people can come together and pass the baton to each other. That didn't happen in 2017. The Trump administration wanted nothing to do with the Obama administration. We were prepared with briefing books and everything else, so we tried to do everything possible to play it straight. And again, the irony is that despite our efforts to do that, now they're blaming us. And I can't believe the White House spokesperson would stand at the podium like that and push out that disinformation. Those are lies. The American people shouldn't have those lies. And the gullibility then, of Trump's supporters. And that's what I really am hoping, that the Fourth Estate, the media, is really going to be able to gain some traction in terms of refuting a lot of this information. It really is important for the American people to understand, and I'm so glad that so many of the news outlets refuse to sign on to the Pentagon's requirements to be able to report at the Pentagon. We need more of that. We need more of the universities pushing back the law firms and others to do what is right, do what is the hallmark of this country's history and experience, which is not to kowtow to tyrants and despots and kings, but to do what is right in order to ensure that we have a democratic system in this great republic of ours that is going to ensure peaceful transitions and it's not going to be full of those lies and falsehoods that were propagated by the White House.

[Nicole Wallace]

One of those journalists has been listening along, and I want to just bring in my colleague, MSNBC justice and intelligence correspondent Ken Delaney. Ken, it's both and right. You can hope that the facts have been established, investigated and corroborated by deep MAGA allies like John Durham, Marco Rubio, the current Secretary of State, then the chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee. It is both those things are true, that there was never any wrongdoing unearthed by either of those men. Millions of dollars and years spent investigating Director Brennan's tenure as a director of the CIA. But Jim Jordan referred him for prosecution to the Justice Department.

[Ken Delaney]

That's right. And I think we should take that very seriously, given what's going on in the Justice Department.

[Noah Oppenheim]

Nicole.

[Ken Delaney]

And I'm sure Director Brennan is, and I should just say here, look, this is a very cozy situation. Director Brennan's an MSNBC contributor. I haven't spoken to him about this recently. I covered him aggressively when he was the CIA director, and I've quoted him in stories over the Years. But so I'm just telling you from my own reporting that the allegations in that Jim Jordan criminal referral, it's almost a word game when you read it. Essentially what he's saying is that Director Brennan testified that the Christopher Steele dossier was not used to form the conclusions in that intelligence assessment, which is true. And then they're saying that they've unearthed recently declassified information that refutes that, but it actually doesn't. What it shows is that what Director Brennan wrote in his memoir and has said for years, that the FBI and James Comey push to include the dossier as an annex to that intelligence assessment, and it wasn't linked in any way to the conclusions. And in fact, John Ratcliffe issued a report that purported to criticize some aspects of the way John Brennan handled that intelligence assessment, but it didn't criticize the assessment. It said that the assessment adhered to strong tradecraft standards. It didn't question the conclusions of that intelligence assessment, that Russia interfered in the election and tried to get Donald Trump elected and tried to hurt Hillary Clinton. And in fact, you see quotes from that misleading and out of context quotes from that analysis in this criminal referral by Jim Jordan. And look, given what has happened with James Comey and Letitia James, you know, we should not be surprised if the Justice Department moves forward with this case. And, you know, it'll be interesting to see whether they can get it passed a grand jury. The last thing I'll say is I think it's a credit to John Brennan that he is here talking because as you've pointed out, Nicole, there are a lot of other people from the Biden administration and the Obama administration, some of whom are under investigation right now, who are choosing not to speak and not to set the record straight, and some for understandable reasons. So John Brennan is taking a risk by talking here today, but he's doing it to try to get the truth out. And I think that's a laudable thing. And I wish more former senior officials were doing that.

[Senator Richard Blumenthal]

Nicole.

[Nicole Wallace]

Me too. Cosine, you get the last word.

[John Brennan]

Well, I have been outspoken, I think, over the past number of years, and I do believe it's important. As a former senior intelligence official, national security official, I think I bring a perspective to some of these issues. I will continue to speak out and I try to make sure that I can focus on things I control. I don't control what Jim Jordan does. I don't control what the Department of Justice does. I like to think that there's going to be good people in the Department of Justice who are really going to look at these things and say, no, we're not going to go and pursue this. This is wrong. If people just do what is right and not do what is wrong, I think it's pretty easy then to determine exactly which White House directive you're going to listen to and which one you're not. So I appreciate the opportunity to speak here. I'm going to continue to speak out. I think it's important. I've tried to be as open and transparent as possible throughout the course of my career. You know, for good or bad, I'm going to continue to do that.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, I have a little bit of a window into how much grief it earns you. And make no doubt, I mean, Donald Trump is more interested in the people who have the power to influence public opinion. I mean, there is a reason you were one of the first people he stripped of your security clearance. There is a reason they continue to be obsessed with you. And so we're glad that when you make those choices, you choose to keep speaking out. Thank you so much and thanks for doing it here. Thank you. Kendallane, thank you for being here for this conversation and rooting us in. Your great reporting. Thank you. When we come back, Senator Jeff Merkley just wrapped up a marathon nearly 23 hour speech on the floor of the Senate calling out Donald Trump as a wannabe dictator who is shredding our Constitution. Senator Merkley is done with his speech and will be our guest this hour. Also had the Pentagon announcing late today another strike on another boat suspected of carrying drugs, the first in the Pacific and the eighth overall. And just like the others, there has been zero evidence presented to the public to support the administration's conduct. We'll get to that with a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee. And later, imagine this, a nuclear missile heading toward a major American city and no one knows who fired it or how to stop it. It's the plot of a highly charged, brilliant and magnificent new thriller called A House of Dynamite, written by our dear friend Noah Oppenheim. He will be our guest right here at the table a little later in the hour. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. The connection between the guests on the show is the show. All that we do is put together people who are smart, people who are brave, people who are honest, and lots of times people who've never met each other to have a conversation that has never happened before. But on that day deepens everyone's understanding about the moment in which we gather.

[John Brennan]

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[Nicole Wallace]

In an alarming sign that the Trump administration's campaign of waging military strikes against boats they claim to be carrying drugs is expanding, today the Pentagon announced the US Military struck a boat in the Pacific Ocean, killing two people. It is the first strike the administration has made outside of the Caribbean Sea that we know about. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth announced the strike on social media earlier today. It is the eighth total strike since the administration began attacking boats in September as part of what they have said without evidence is a war against drug cartels. So far, 30 people have died in the strikes. I will add that we know of the administration has not made public any evidence to back up any of its claims about any of the targets and that the strikes were confirmed drug smugglers. We've seen no evidence to prove that. Joining our coverage, Connecticut Senator Richard Blumenthal. He's a member of the Senate Armed Forces Committee. Senator, thank you for being here. Have you, in a classified or unclassified setting, seen any evidence before, during or after the strikes to prove what they're saying about the strikes, that drugs are or were on board?

[Senator Richard Blumenthal]

Thanks for having me, Nicole. No evidence and and no information. As a member of the Armed Services Committee, I would expect that we'd be given some briefings about the facts here. But Secretary of Defense Hegseth and his team have provided Congress, so far as I know, none of the details relating to who is on the boat, what they are actually carrying, where they are coming from or going to, and who is financing them. They are apparently civilians targeted potentially illegally, and the military who are carrying out these strikes are potentially exposed to very serious charges of killing civilians, which is against our law. And so there are alternatives to stopping this poison, as the Secretary of Defense had refer to it, which is interdicting these boats through the use of the Coast Guard and the Southern Command military, bolstering those resources and stopping any kind of smuggling of illegal drugs.

[Nicole Wallace]

What is your sense, if you just follow their words? I mean, if the goal, I think it's shared among all Americans to stop the flow of illegal, deadly drugs into America, why are they targeting boats that have such a small fraction of the illegal drug supply in a place that's so far from us, we're not even sure they're intended for the US Population?

[Senator Richard Blumenthal]

Well, that is the key question, Nicole. In fact, most of the fentanyl reaching the United States comes from Mexico. And the boats that are carrying the cocaine, potentially, because that's what Colombia and Venezuela produce, is going to other countries, but not the United States. Now, eventually it may reach the United States, but that's a law enforcement problem. And second, as you just said, these boats are carrying a minute, really fractional amount. And so to use these kinds of tactics, police state tactics, is really trying to hit a problem of a swarm of insects by going after one single one of them.

[Nicole Wallace]

Is there any outreach from any members of the military to any Democratic members on your committee to have more oversight to make sure on their part that they're not breaking the law?

[Senator Richard Blumenthal]

We need oversight. We need to have a hearing. We need to be demanding answers, because so far, almost no information has been provided, and I think there ought to be a bipartisan call for it. I've spoken to a number of my Republican colleagues who are very discouraged, quieted, and some of them dismayed by the apparent concealment of this very relevant information, because it's a disservice to the military to potentially subject them to charges of illegality. And the American people deserve to know what the extent of the problem is and why we are either pursuing them effectively or. Or whether we should be using civilian law enforcement instead. Along with the Coast Guard and the.

[Nicole Wallace]

Southern Command military Senator, you are working with your colleague Congressman Garcia in the House to gain some oversight prerogatives over ICE's handling or detaining and mistreatment of American citizens. I think a lot of people are happy to see efforts like this, even if you're not in the majority, to see efforts at oversight. Tell us what you hope to accomplish and where you're going to start with ice, which seems to have all of the. They seem to be operating with impunity.

[Senator Richard Blumenthal]

You know, there is a through line here, very tragically and alarmingly, the use of. Use of military force against these boats in the Caribbean and now the Eastern Pacific the lawlessness there and the lawlessness of ICE and CPB in detaining United States citizens. We have talked to about a dozen Americans, citizens who have been detained for two to three days, taken from their places of work or their homes, and subjected to this kind of abuse. And what we're trying to do is essentially document the kind of reckless use of force that potentially is involved in these seizure of individuals, depriving them of access to phones, to lawyers, sometimes to basic necessities like water and access to their families. And we need to do something about it.

[Nicole Wallace]

Senator, have you seen the live images of the destruction of the East Wing of the White House this afternoon?

[Senator Richard Blumenthal]

I've seen some images of it, and I really believe that they are destroying an American icon, a culture and a symbol of America that is unforgivable. Apart from all of the kinds of costs involved, the millions of dollars that should be taken into account and saved, and the sources that put them at the mercy potentially of and beholden to the millionaires who are contributing, they are destroying a structure that is a symbol of America. And I am again struck by the lawlessness that's involved here, this slide toward authoritarianism. We're in the midst of it. What's happening with CPB and ICE in keeping these American citizens detained for two to three days without access to communication or lawyers and then releasing them without charges is similar to the kind of recklessness and lawlessness that we see in the destruction of the East Wing of the White House without permission from the agencies and without accountability for the financing that is going on.

[Nicole Wallace]

Senator, this is funded, we're told by Donald Trump, by corporate sponsors. Would you like to understand what the corporate sponsors were promised in return? And do you think, in the long arc of history, do you think those corporate sponsors should save their own records and documents for being part of the destruction of the East Wing of the White House?

[Senator Richard Blumenthal]

Not only would I like it, but I think the American, American people deserve to know about the big corporations that are contributing literally tens of millions of dollars each of them, to finance this destruction. It is outright destruction of an American icon, the East Wing of isis, but also what they are expecting in return. And what we've seen, again, is given the kinds of settlements, for example, of lawsuits by big corporations with Donald Trump paying him millions of dollars when they have mergers under review or other decisions that may be subject to review and regulation, not to mention the crypto schemes and corruption, I think creates a pattern here that cries out for investigation. I hope Republicans will join in calling for the Judiciary Committee and other relevant committees in the United States Congress. And again, we are going to continue investigating through the Permanent Subcommittee on Investigation. I'm going to continue working with Congressman Garcia to reach out to the victims of these ICPV tactics. They are police state tactic and I think we owe it to the American people continue the scrutiny and the oversight.

[Nicole Wallace]

Senator Richard Blumenthal, thank you for your time on all these stories today. It's nice to see you. When we come back, we will be joined here at the table by the writer behind the incredible new thriller. It's called A House of Dynamite. It's a story about how the United States government, not really the government, but the people, deal with a potential nuclear not just at a policy level, but at a human level. That's next.

[John Brennan]

MSNBC presents the chart topping original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. This week she sits down with former White House communications director Anthony Scaramucci.

[Senator Richard Blumenthal]

We are a beautiful, colorful mosaic of people and we are exactly what Lincoln, the last best hope for mankind, the.

[John Brennan]

Best people with Nicole Wallace. Listen now for early access and free listening and bonus content, subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.

[Nicole Wallace]

18 minutes to determine the fate of the planet and all the humans on it. It's the sort of movie that when it's over and the screen goes blank and the credits start to roll and you start to breathe again, you and whomever you've seen it with can't help but but sit there in silence, especially right now. The movie's name is A House of Dynamite. It's an expression used to describe the world as it is, nations equipped with nuclear weapons led by people charged with whether or not to use those weapons on each other. Even when the facts aren't clear and the clock is tick, tick, ticking. Here's part of the trailer.

[John Brennan]

I always thought just being ready is the point that keeps the villain. Check. Keeps the world straight. They see how prepared we are. No one starts a nuclear war. Approximately three minutes ago, we detected an ICBM over the Pacific. Current flight trajectory is consistent with impact somewhere in the continental United States.

[Nicole Wallace]

Joining us now, Noah Oppenheim. He wrote A House of Dynamite. He's also one of the producers. He's also the former president of NBC News. And my dear friend, thank you for being here.

[Noah Oppenheim]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Nicole Wallace]

So House of Dynamite got a 10, 11 minute standing ovation when you premiered it.

[John Brennan]

Right in Venice.

[Nicole Wallace]

In Venice.

[Noah Oppenheim]

People seem to like it.

[Nicole Wallace]

People like it. I went to, I think it was one of the New York City Premieres at the New York City Film Festival. And no one said a word when it ended, and no one moved. And there are very few things, I don't know, maybe your team winning a baseball game, but you're not silent. I mean, it's a really, really, really extraordinary human experience to sit in a theater with people that either can't stop clapping for 11 minutes or can't get up. What is it about this movie? And is that what you're trying to. I mean, you get everyone's attention? And why was that so important right now?

[Noah Oppenheim]

So, you know, a good share of the credit for that, of course, goes to Kathryn Bigelow, who's the filmmaker, the director of the movie. She made Hurt Locker, Zero Dark Thirty. And, you know, she and all of the folks that she assembles to make a movie like this, they're just masters of their craft. And so our goal was to give the audience a real visceral experience. Because this issue, the threat of nuclear war, it feels really abstract. It feels really distant. It's hard to wrap your head around. And it's something I think we've all pretty effectively pushed out of mind since the end of the Cold War. And we wanted to not only bring it out of. Bring it back into focus, but also have it land with a real punch. And so we tell the story. You mentioned 18 minutes. We tell the story in real time. So you feel how short 18 minutes is. 18 minutes is the amount of time it would take for a missile to hit the United States if it were launched from the Pacific Theater. Be much shorter than that if a sub, for instance, launched off our coast. And that's all the time the president, the Pentagon, others would have to determine their response. That clock will be ticking. And those decision makers will be not only having to determine the retaliation, trying to shoot down the incoming missiles, but they'll also probably be running for their own lives at the same time. And that's the reality we wanted to depict.

[Nicole Wallace]

None of your characters run for their lives. This is whether intentionally or unintentionally, I think it shows, especially the first character whose experience you lived through. A mom who leaves really early in the morning. I knew the people who had this job when I worked in the White House that sort of run the sit room. Lots of times they're placing calls from foreign leaders to the president and from the president to foreign leaders or wayward, you know, cabinet members that can't get down. She has a very different day. But the people are sort of the best of humanity that Seems like a choice 100%.

[Noah Oppenheim]

I think we had a real reverence for the people who hold those jobs. You know, the civil servants who work in the White House situation room, the military officers who man the battle deck at StratCom, who sit in those bunkers at Fort Greely, Alaska, who spend 247 keeping the rest of us safe. And all of the characters we depict in the film are thoughtful, well intentioned, good at their jobs, and come into work on the day that we dramatize in the film, expecting a normal day, wanting to do their job to the best of their ability. And then we sort of see what happens when that pressure starts to build and when this thing happens.

[Nicole Wallace]

Is there anything that you intended? I mean, you also ran this company's news organization. I mean, you are acutely aware, sort of at a cellular level, the moment in which we live where the country doesn't have a lot of regard for these kinds of people. Donald Trump has taken a wrecking ball to the civil service. Donald Trump doesn't have any regard for the national security agencies. Is there any. I know as a creative process, your characters are true to the events as they would transpire. But if there's any part of you personally that wanted to tell the story of the kind of who would protect the country from a nuclear strike, well.

[Noah Oppenheim]

Certainly I wanted to shine a light on the heroism of these people, as did Catherine. The other piece of it is someone told me when I took the job here at NBC, they said, I've got bad news. There's no room on another floor filled with grownups who know the answers to these questions. It's just you, it's just people. It's just ordinary folks trying to do the best that they can under different difficult circumstances. And I think that we sometimes take for granted these institutions. We think of them as these monoliths that will, of course, function properly under stress. But you peel back the curtain and inside these rooms are ordinary human beings, moms, husbands, ordinary people. And it's going to depend on them what the outcome is.

[Nicole Wallace]

I have to sneak in a break. I'll tell you when I started to cry. And I want to talk about your president. Very intentional president. As your president at the time. Noah sticks around. We'll be right back. We're back with Noah. Noah, I want to show you a scene with your president. I'd rather show it than say it.

[John Brennan]

These are the circumstances. In little more than seven minutes, we will lose the city of Chicago. I can't. We can't tell you why? Or why we're seeing North Korea, Russia, China, Pakistan, and even Iran raising their alerts and mobilizing their forces across air, land, and sea. Perhaps, as Mr. Barrington suggested earlier, they are simply and innocently responding to our posture. It is also possible that they've seen our homeland is about to absorb a catastrophic blow and they are readying to take advantage of that. Or this is all part of a phased coordinated assault with far worse to come. I simply don't know. What I do know is this. If we do not take steps to neutralize our enemies now, we will lose our window to do so.

[Nicole Wallace]

So that's the choice being put in front of the president?

[Noah Oppenheim]

Yes, that is the brilliant Tracy Letts portraying the commander of Stratcom. Stratcom oversees our nuclear arsenal. And he is putting this question to the President because in our system, in the United States, we have something called sole authority. The President of the United States is the only person who gets to make a decision about the use of nuclear weapons. He does not need to build any kind of consensus. There's no vote of the Cabinet. There's no, of course, going to Congress or even the Joint Chiefs. One vote, one person. And it's all on his or her shoulders.

[Nicole Wallace]

It's incredibly chilling to watch it with this current president when we know what's in the public record is that in his first term, his chief of staff at the time, General John Kelly, was deeply concerned about him starting a nuclear war with North Korea. And Michael Bender and my husband, Mike Schmidt, had written about Kelly's extraordinary efforts to protect the country from his instincts. And I wonder how much. How important it is for people to understand the extraordinary power of all of these officials, especially an American president.

[Noah Oppenheim]

I mean, it used to be front and center in our elections. Right. I mean, you know, famously with, you know, with the Daisy Girl ad and when Goldwater was running. This question of who do you want making this decision? It's arguably the most consequential responsibility of a president. For a variety of reasons, we've stopped talking about it quite as much. It remains as great a threat as ever. And I think it's an important question to ask. In the film, we depict a president who is responsible. Well read, thoughtful, happily married. Yes. And the question we're asking is, no matter who it is, even the best president being asked to make a call like this under that kind of time pressure, it's something that arguably no human being could. Could deal with. And so we want to kind of question the whole system.

[Nicole Wallace]

What is it about the reaction, what do you think it's tapped into? And, you know, for 11 minutes, people are responding with this, as you said, visceral reaction.

[Noah Oppenheim]

I think it's. Well, I think it is. I mean, I think it's an experience. Hopefully it sort of works as a thriller. To be crass about it. I mean, I think the audience is captivated by watching, you know, Katherine do her thing as a filmmaker. And I think it's reminding people of this existential threat that exists, and it's watching human beings under pressure. I mean, I think there's nothing more dramatic than watching ordinary people confront extraordinary circumstances and trying to rise to the occasion of dealing with them. And while I won't give away the outcome, I think that the story of regular people doing their best, I think is something that connects right now.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, and seeing them as parents was the part that undid me. Seeing a mother sort of put aside her husband and child to serve the country. I mean, that is the best of what you get. When you walk into the sit room and close your eyes and turn to anybody that's who works in the sit room.

[Noah Oppenheim]

We say words like public service and we forget what it means. Service like, these are people who are doing these jobs not to make a lot of money, not for any glory, but because they believe in the mission. And, you know, I think that some of that has been forgotten. I say to people all the time, I mean, the officers that I've met in the United States military are among the most extraordinary human beings I've ever come across. And they are committed to the defense of this country and of the Constitution. And, you know, I think sometimes we lose track of them.

[Nicole Wallace]

And you can say that about the FBI, too, and any of those strings, and you walk out of any interaction with any of them. And they're pretty press shy, so you don't see a lot of them. And you have no idea what their politics are. Let me ask you, as the former president of NBC News, how would you cover the demolition of the East Wing of the White House, the actual physical destruction of it and a hose on top of it to keep it from going up in flames? Images of a White House monument you haven't seen since September 11, when it was the Pentagon that was destroyed by, in that case, a terrorist attack?

[Noah Oppenheim]

I mean, my true north, when I was at that NBC News was always just rigorously cover the facts as they are. Don't shy away from them. I mean, if the White House were in that kind of condition due to any cause at all, it would be the biggest story in the country. And so documenting it in real time and in detail and not shying away from it, I think is the only choice you have.

[Nicole Wallace]

So making sure that everyone has seen this picture and understands that this wasn't any sort of act of God or act of terrorism. This was Donald Trump's redesign.

[Noah Oppenheim]

Apparently.

[Nicole Wallace]

This is where we are. Noah, congratulations on the film. It's exquisite. It's perfect. And I think everybody will see it. I think everyone will have that same reaction as your first viewers had. And they stood up for 11 minutes. The film is called A House of Dynamite. No, it's a pleasure to have you here.

[Noah Oppenheim]

Thanks so much for having me.

[Nicole Wallace]

Thank you so much. One more break. We'll be right back. We cover threats to the rule of law on this program almost every day and threats to the Constitution as well. But no one got to the heart of the matter quite like this week's podcast guest.

[Senator Richard Blumenthal]

If we believe in what America promises us, you know, it's supposed to be, you know, freedom, liberty and justice for all, then we have to know that that is, that that don't even exist right now. I'm talking about in this current moment right now, that that does not exist. The rule of law does not exist in America. The Constitution is a very, very fragile document right now.

[Nicole Wallace]

That is Charlamagne th God, an essential voice with more than 7 million people who tune into his hit radio show the Breakfast Club each month. He is my guest on this week's episode of the Best People scan the QR code to watch it on YouTube. And as always, you can listen wherever you get your podcasts. I hope you'll listen and let me know what you think. Thank you for letting us into your homes today. We are grateful.