Chris Hayes (2:37)

Homicide, Andrew Weissman. Obviously, this is a family tragedy. It's also, as Lisa said, a double homicide. Where are your thoughts this hour?

Andrew Weissman (2:53)

It is a tragedy. This is the kind of thing that is hard for everyone. And I don't think it'll be at all surprising, given the history that we've all read about, that this was somebody, the son was somebody who was very troubled. I think from, you know, I've been thinking about this from the defense perspective. They have to be thinking about arguments that they're going to be making, either the guilt phase, but more so for leniency with respect to sentencing because of his apparent sort of drug issues, mental health issues. And that's going to be what they're focusing on. Obviously. The other thing that we'll learn today is, as Lisa said, we may learn allegations about what exactly happened and whether there was any sort of confession or statements by others reporting a confession. So we may learn more details. But I think this is one where I think everyone has a very good sense of what happened here and it is really a tragedy all the way around. And one of the things I was thinking about is for people who believe in the things that the two victims, Mr. And Mrs. Reiner, believe in, one way to honor them is to show the commitment that they have shown throughout their lives to those issues as a way of honoring them, to make something positive come out of what is it just a terrible, terrible tragedy.

Chris Hayes (4:41)

You know, that's top of mind when we attempt to cover a story like this. Rob Reiner lives such a generous life and you see that in the tributes. I mean, every corner of the entertainment world, every corner of the political world, every corner of the comedy spectrum, from, you know, old Seinfeld clips to new young rising comedians, every corner of the highest levels of filmmaking. You know, heartfelt, tearful tributes from Kevin Bacon I saw last night, who did A Few Good Men with him, from, you know, people who felt touched by him and his wife. It's just an extraordinary loss to so many different worlds, to the world of entertainment, the world of comedy, the community in which he lived, the world of politics. The former president Barack Obama. Michelle. Michelle Obama were supposed to see him on the day he was found dead.

Lisa Rubin (5:37)

I'm struck by just how broad the range is of people who were impacted by Rob Reiner after his death. Ted Cruz issued a statement where he said the Princess Bride was his all time favorite movie and that to not recognize this as the horrible tragedy that it was was itself tragic. Contrast that also, Nicole, if you think about like the gamut from Ted Cruz to Jane Fonda, who had said that she had seen the Reiners the evening before they were murder, a holiday party, and was looking forward to working with them on a new campaign to defend the First Amendment. I mean, the range from Ted Cruz to Jane Fonda on the political spectrum is about as broad as one could possibly imagine. And yet all of these people had great admiration for Rob Reiner and his wife, both as philanthropists, as people who are creative. I mean, there is nobody whose creativity sort of spanned that range from comedy to drama either. You know, if you talk to people who about Rob Reiner's work, from all in the Family to the Princess Bride to Stand By Me, my personal favorite movie of all time is When Harry Met Sally. There isn't a person who is thinking about this case who isn't also thinking about his work and his legacy, but also his political advocacy and his policy development as well. You know, he is a person who spent a lot of time trying to ensure that kids in California got access to educational services. I have a friend in California who used to be the board president of a nonprofit that serves underserved children. When he was thinking about Rob Reiner, that's what he was thinking about most in terms of his impact. So their impact will certainly be felt and will be missed from Hollywood to New York and everywhere in between, including on our sets where Rob Reiner was a frequent presence.

Chris Hayes (7:25)

Heather Cox Richardson. Andrew posted a clip from a Rob Reiner directed classic written by Aaron Sorkin, the American President. And it was a scene about character. And in some ways, it tells a better story about this moment than anything those of us covering it could tell. Donald Trump revealed his character when he issued a false smear against Rob Reiner and his wife hours after it was learned that the world had lost these iconic and beloved artists and activists. And the reverberations of that are being felt still as well.

Andrew Weissman (8:12)

You know, it's one of these things where I don't really want to spend time talking about Donald Trump's first reaction. We have seen so many new lows and what are basically sort of almost like inhuman responses. I mean, it's so hard to identify with that lack of empathy. I think it's. I think it's much better to really look at these two lives as people who are enormously talented and who stayed very engaged with life. And I think that is a way of sort of taking something positive out of this moment and to think of the way they were incredibly engaged on a family level, on a work level, and politically in terms of speaking out about what they believe in and wherever you are on the political spectrum, left, right, middle, I think that engagement is a lesson that we can take from both of them.

Chris Hayes (9:31)

Let's listen in about a minute. Away from this getting underway, they're organizing themselves. Let's listen.

Deputy Chief Allen Hamilton (9:45)

So this is going to be an update on the homicide investigation of Rob Reiner and Michelle Reiner.

Miles Taylor (9:52)

You're going to hear from the Chief.

Deputy Chief Allen Hamilton (9:53)

Of Police, Jim McDonald, from the Los Angeles Police Department, and the District Attorney, Nathan Hockman. Just want to level expectations. We will allow some time for questions, but because of this is a preliminary investigation still very active. It's being filed as we speak. There's not a lot we're going to be able to say right now. Also, if you would please, one question at a time so that we can hear the question and answer it appropriately. So if we could have that decorum in here.

Nathan Hockman (10:22)

D.A.

Chris Hayes (10:22)

Nathan Hockman.

Nathan Hockman (10:28)

My name is Nathan Hockman. I'm the District Attorney of Los Angeles County. Today I'm here to announce that our office will be filing charges against Nick Reiner, who is accused of killing his parents, Actor director Rob Reiner and photographer producer Michelle Singer Reiner. These charges will be two counts of first degree murder with a special circumstance of multiple murders. He also faces a special allegation that he personally used a dangerous and deadly weapon, that being a knife. These charges carry a maximum sentence of life in prison without the possibility parole or the death penalty. No decision at this point has been made with respect to the death penalty we have requested. And currently Nick Reiner is being held without bail. Now, before I in announcing these charges, I also want to announce that they're just that they are charges. Charges are not evidence. Evidence is something that we will be presenting in a court of law to meet the standard of proof we meet in every criminal case, which is beyond a reasonable doubt to 12 jurors, who you unanimously have to find that we've met that standard to prove the charges we bring to court right now with respect to the process. Nick, once the charges get filed this afternoon, Nick Reiner will be then brought to court. He is going through medical clearance, something that everybody who goes, who gets arrested and gets held in a Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department jail goes through. Once he is medically cleared, he will be brought to court to be arraigned on these charges. At that point, he will enter a plea of guilty or not guilty. Now, prosecuting these cases involving family members are some of the most challenging and most heart wrenching cases that this office faces because of the intimate and often brutal nature of the crimes involved. Rob Reiner was a brilliant actor and director, an iconic force in our entertainment industry for decades. His wife, Michelle Singer Reiner, was an equally iconic photographer and producer.

Chief Jim McDonnell (12:54)

Their.

Nathan Hockman (12:54)

Their loss is beyond tragic. And we have. We will commit ourselves to. To bringing their murderer to justice. I want to thank LAPD Chief McDonnell, who is here today along with Deputy Chief Alan Hamilton from the LAPD and LAPD Captain Scott Williams and the entire Robbery Homicide Division, who literally has been working around the clock to gather the evidence that have led to the charges we're going to be filing today. Also from my office, I have Assistant District Attorney Maria Ramirez. I have Director of specialized prosecutions John McKinney, I have our Head Deputy of Major Crimes, Craig Humm. And I have the two prosecutors who will be leading the prosecution in this case, Assistant Head Deputy of Major Crimes Habib Balian, and Deputy District Attorney for Major Crimes Jonathan Chung. They will bring their decades of experience to holding this murderer accountable for his actions. At this point, again, you will hear in the media rumors. You will hear speculation. You will hear hearsay. What I'm asking everyone to do is to rely on trusted sources. If it doesn't come from the District Attorney's office, from lapd, from the coroner's office, or from the courtroom itself, then there is a good chance you are hearing misinformation. Because at the appropriate time, the actual evidence involved in this case will be presented in a court of law. So I ask for your patience until that is done. But again, please do not rely on rank speculation, rumor, or hearsay to believe that you understand anything about what went on in this case. I'd now like to turn it over to Chief McDonnell.

Miles Taylor (14:50)

Thank you.

Chief Jim McDonnell (14:52)

Well, good afternoon and thank you all for being here today. And it's with deep sadness that I address the tragic loss of Robert Michelle Reiner. On December 14, 2025, LAPD officers from our West Los Angeles division responded to a death investigation at the 200 block of South Chadbourne Avenue, which is in the Brentwood section of Los Angeles. Upon entering the residence, they discovered the bodies of Mr. And Mrs. Reiner. Detectives from our Robbery Homicide Division, Homicide Special Section, immediately initiated a comprehensive investigation. The evidence gathered led to the arrest of their son, Nick Reiner, who was taken into custody later that night without incident in the Exposition park section of our city. Today, the Los Angeles County District's Attorney's Office has formally filed charges against Mr. Reiner for the murder of his parents. This case is heartbreaking and deeply personal, not only for the Reiner family and their loved ones, but for our entire city. We extend our deepest condolences to all of those who are affected by this tragedy. I want to take a moment to recognize and thank our criminal justice partners, the District Attorney's Office, led by D.A. hockman and everyone who worked tirelessly on this investigation. Their swift action, professionalism, and commitment to justice have been instrumental bringing clarity and accountability to this case. The LAPD remains steadfast in our mission to protect life and uphold justice. We will continue to support the Reiner family, ensure that every step forward is taken with care, dignity and resolve. Thank you.

Nathan Hockman (16:35)

We're going to take some questions. Yes, right here in the front. Could you talk about why you feel.

Nicole Wallace (16:42)

This case rises to special circumstances?

Nathan Hockman (16:46)

So special circumstances is a situation where one of the enumerated factors that lead to elevating in some ways a first degree murder case to a special circumstance first degree murder case occurs. One of those special circumstances is called multiple murders. Here we have two. And it qualifies under the definition of multiple murders to allege the special circumstance in this particular case. I saw over here, Nick Reiner found.

Andrew Weissman (17:16)

And was there any evidence on him.

Nathan Hockman (17:19)

Indicating a crime and did he say anything?

Chief Jim McDonnell (17:22)

Yeah, he was found with good, solid police work. Investigative tools used by Robbery Homicide and gang and Narcotic Division detectives with the U.S. marshals Service Task force involved as well. So we're thankful for the work that was done. I won't go into talking about what was found or anything that could potentially taint the investigation.

Miles Taylor (17:43)

Chief wants a follow up question. Given Nick's history of drug use, was.

Andrew Weissman (17:48)

There any indication that he was under the influence at the time of his crime?

Lisa Rubin (17:51)

No.

Chief Jim McDonnell (17:52)

Thank you Again, that's another question I can't touch.

Lisa Rubin (17:55)

Is there any evidence of mental illness in his background?

Nathan Hockman (18:00)

I'm sorry, please repeat the question.

Lisa Rubin (18:01)

Is there any evidence of mental illness in his background beyond the addiction?

Nathan Hockman (18:05)

The evidence, any evidence, if there is any, of mental illness for his background will be coming out in the hearings, too. That will occur, we anticipate, again, after the arraignment. The process will go through the normal process a case like this goes through at the appropriate time. If there is evidence of mental illness, it will be presented in court and in whatever detail. The defense seeks to do that. Yes, right here.

Chris Hayes (18:35)

Are you anticipating any kind of significant.

Miles Taylor (18:37)

Delay in bringing this case to trial on the basis perhaps that they May have to go through a significant psychological evaluation which would also give your people what they need.

Andrew Weissman (18:49)

Why does that.

Nathan Hockman (18:51)

We don't anticipate any significant delay more than is involved in a first degree murder case with special circumstances. These are some of the most serious charges that a DA's office can bring against anyone. And we anticipate that the discovery that we will produce to the defense will be robust. It will be very involved. They'll want adequate time to review it again. They'll want to go through every single factor that they can ascertain in the defense. Mr. Nick Reiner. So again, this will proceed along the tracks that many of the first degree murder cases proceed. Do I anticipate it being particularly fast? No, I. I anticipate it being very thorough. Yes, right here.

Andrew Weissman (19:36)

Cause of death and time of death.

Sam Stein (19:37)

Can you share any information about that?

Nathan Hockman (19:38)

We are not at this time.

Chris Hayes (19:42)

Yes, I hear members of the Reiner.

Lisa Rubin (19:44)

Family help with your investigation. Investigation so far. And did they provide any information or assistance which led to Nick being arrested?

Nathan Hockman (19:52)

Let me defer to the chief on this.

Deputy Chief Allen Hamilton (19:56)

Hi, I'm Deputy Chief Allen Hamilton, Chief of Detectives. We don't have any specific information we're going to release at this time regarding the families information they provided as we move forward that that information will be discussed in the appropriate venue which will be the court.

Nathan Hockman (20:13)

Yes, in the front here. Sorry for the chief.

Deputy Chief Allen Hamilton (20:15)

Can you talk anything more about just.

Miles Taylor (20:17)

Not the condition that Nick was only.

Chris Hayes (20:19)

Arrested by people in the neighborhood like anything else.

Deputy Chief Allen Hamilton (20:27)

So specifically he was arrested in a public area in the Exposition park area near the University of Southern California campus. He was approached by the officers and he was arrested without incident. There were no indications that there was no indication that he was going to resist or anything like that. He didn't flee or anything like that. He was taken into custody without issue and he was transported to our police airport facility.

Nathan Hockman (20:56)

Take a question back there. Yes, he has been alleged. One of these special allegations is that the murder was committed with a deadly weapon or a knife. As to where and how the weapon will be was located or will be located, that will actually be evidence. We'll present in court.

Miles Taylor (21:19)

Two more questions.

Nathan Hockman (21:21)

Let me take a question over here.

Andrew Weissman (21:22)

Give us a timeline of when you.

Sam Stein (21:24)

Think the murders occurred because now we.

Nicole Wallace (21:25)

Know that there was an altercation on.

Sam Stein (21:27)

Saturday night at a party.

Andrew Weissman (21:29)

Do we know that this happened Saturday night, Sunday morning?

Nathan Hockman (21:33)

Valve defer the chief on this one.

Chief Jim McDonnell (21:34)

Yeah, we don't have. We don't have. I'm sorry, we don't have that kind of Specificity yet. We're waiting the coroner to be able to try and determine as best they can at this point time of death.

Nathan Hockman (21:51)

Let's. We'll take the question back there. Yes. Can you tell us who called 911?

Chief Jim McDonnell (21:57)

We had a radio call from Fire department.

Deputy Chief Allen Hamilton (22:02)

Okay. So in terms of how the Los Angeles Police Department became aware, it was a request from the Los Angeles Fire Department who responded to the scene first. We responded to their request for assistance at the. The scene of the incident. Our initial West LA officers that responded determined that a crime had occurred and they immediately notified our Robbery Homicide Division. They responded and they have taken over the investigation since that point.

Miles Taylor (22:26)

Thank you, everybody.

Nathan Hockman (22:30)

One more. Take it right here.

Deputy Chief Allen Hamilton (22:33)

I know you're hesitant to talk about.

Nathan Hockman (22:35)

Sensitive evidence, but based on the evidence.

Chris Hayes (22:38)

Collected to support these charges, did that.

Andrew Weissman (22:40)

Include an admission by the defendant to the alleged crime?

Nathan Hockman (22:43)

So any statements made by the defendant at any point in time would be the type of evidence we. We will be presenting in court. Let me take one. I'll take one last question right here. Hold on one second. I just identified this gentleman.

Lisa Rubin (22:57)

I thought you were pointing at me.

Nathan Hockman (22:58)

Sorry. We have an estimated time for completion.

Miles Taylor (23:01)

Of the autopsy and the information coming.

Chris Hayes (23:03)

From the medical assignment of your office.

Nathan Hockman (23:05)

And to the detective case, we do not have the estimated time that it will take. We know that they are working on it expeditiously, but as to when they deliver it, we do not have that estimated time. I'll take that one last question back there.

Lisa Rubin (23:17)

I was just wondering, I know these types of cases are especially difficult. How much did you take into account what the family wants when it comes to charges? When you're dealing with a domestic situation like that, and does that factor into whether you will go after life of.

Nathan Hockman (23:32)

Parole or possibly death penalty in these cases? Like, like any of these cases, we will take the. The thoughts and desires of the family into consideration in making our decision. Thank you all very much.

Chris Hayes (23:50)

Los Angeles County District Attorney Nathan Hockman announcing two counts of first degree murder with special circumstances charges that they said are in the process of being filed as they took the microphone there behind the podium for the murders of Robin Michelle Reiner, Lisa Rubin, Nicole.

Lisa Rubin (24:13)

One of the things that was most interesting to me is Nathan Hockman saying that they haven't decided yet whether they're going to seek the death penalty. And I'm a native Californian and California, yes, I know California has not executed anybody since 2006. And in fact, in 2019, Governor Gavin Newsom put a moratorium on the use of the death penalty. At that point in time, there were over 730 people on California's death row. But interesting to hear the Los Angeles District Attorney nonetheless say that pursuing the death penalty is perhaps an option for him. Despite that moratorium he's considering because of the special circumstances, because of the way in which these murders were allegedly committed, he is going to seek life without parole or the death penalty on these two counts of first degree murder with special circumstances. The other thing that I thought was really interesting from that press conference is some detail about how Nick Reiner came into custody, which I don't believe we had heard before. They said that he was arrested near the University of Southern California, near Exposition Park. For anybody who knows the Southern California area, that is not particularly close to Brentwood, nor is it close to the Santa Monica Hotel in which Nick Reiner has been reported to be staying at the Pierside Hotel in Santa Monica. They said that he put up no resistance. But I suspect that we will learn much more in days to come about how did Nick Reiner go from the scene of the crime to Exposition park and come into custody there?

Chris Hayes (25:36)

Yeah, Andrew, I think it was the police chief who described it as, quote, good police work. Your thoughts?

Andrew Weissman (25:46)

So I think one thing that I think people should note about this was as much as there was very little that came out of this other than, yes, he is being charged, it's because of this is a normal way that in normal administrations, charges are announced there. You say that they're allegations. You make sure that you are not prejudicing the defendant's right rights. You do not send out social media hit jobs on the defendant. You do not use adjectives and adverbs to describe them. This was a sober, professional performance by the prosecutor and the law enforcement officers. And it's so refreshing in that sense to see the process work the way it should, even in the face of somebody who may have committed just a heartbreaking crime, killing two people in cold blood with a knife. And yet our system has a way of dealing with that so that reporters get to ask lots of questions. But the reason they were not answered was because of that concern about due process and the rights a defendant has. And it's. I have to say, it's refreshing to see that kind of professionalism going forward. And in many ways, I've been saying this all along, but I feel like that's a very good way to honor the two victims who very much believed in civil liberties and the constitutional rights and the way they had been undermined and denigrated in the current administration.

Chris Hayes (27:45)

Andrew, you stick around. Lisa Rubin, thank you for joining us and for all your coverage on this story. We appreciate you. When we come back, an extraordinary on the record interview with Donald Trump's chief of staff, Susie Wiles, who he recently called Susie Trump. She literally tells all the she corroborates the accounts of Donald Trump from past chiefs of staff. She opens up about her boss. She talks about his cabinet and his, quote, score settling prosecutions against his so called enemies, which are the opposite of what Andrew Weissman just pointed out and underscored from what we just witnessed together. We'll unpack all of it for you. Also coming up, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth says that controversial video of a deadly second strike on the suspect and its survivors off the coast of Venezuela will not be shown to all members of Congress or the public. We will tell you who will get to see it, though. We'll have all those stories and more when Deadly White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

Lisa Rubin (28:46)

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Andrew Weissman (29:16)

The U.S. military deployed on the streets.

Chris Hayes (29:18)

Of America, whole communities targeted for removal. And when accountability finally came knocking, the.

Andrew Weissman (29:24)

Burn off order to cover it all up.

Nicole Wallace (29:26)

Rachel Meadow Presents Burn Order all episodes available now.

Chris Hayes (29:35)

Christmas has come early for Democrats and a growing group of Republicans who are warning every day that Donald Trump's second term is off the rails and dangerous. That gift comes in the form of a rare on the record recitation of Donald Trump's manifest lack of suitability or fitness for the office he holds. Quote, an alcoholic's personality. That's how Donald Trump's current chief of staff, the effective CEO of Donald Trump's White House, describes Donald Trump right now. That's her view right now to journalist and author Chris Whipple. It comes out in 11 on the record interviews she did with Whipple for Vanity Fair. Susie Wiles tells Whipple this, quote, some clinical psychologist that knows 1 million times more than I do will dispute what I'm going to say. But high functioning alcoholics or alcoholics in general, their personalities are exaggerated when they drink. And so I'm a little bit of an expert in big personalities. Wiles said Trump has, quote, an alcoholic's personality. He, quote, operates with a view that there's nothing he can't do. Nothing, zero, nothing, end quote. Suzy Wiles doesn't hold back when it comes to other members of Trump's inner circle. People like JD Vance, who she describes like this, quote, he's been a conspiracy theorist for a decade, end quote. As for how J.D. vance traveled from the belief that he said publicly that Trump might be, quote, America's Hitler or, quote, a cynical, a hole like Nixon, not to mention an idiot, to now serving as his vice president, Susie Wiles offers this explanation. Quote, his conversion came when he was running for the Senate. And I think his conversion was a little bit more sort of political, end quote. As for Russ Vogt, he's the architect of Project 2025 and director of the Office of Management and Budget. According to Susie Wiles, again in an on the record series of interviews, he's a, quote, right wing, absolute zealot, end quote. Regarding Elon Musk, who took a chainsaw to the federal government, traumatized the federal workforce. Susie Wiles says this, quote, he's an avowed ketamine user and he sleeps in a sleeping bag in the OEOB in the daytime. And he's an odd, odd duck, as I think geniuses are. You know, it's not helpful. But he is his own person, end quote. The journalist Chris Whipple adding this quote, when I asked her, Susie Wiles, what she thought of Elon Musk reposting a tweet about public sector workers killing millions under Hitler, Stalin and Mao, she replied, quote, I think that's when he's microdosing, end quote. It's safe to say nothing about this is normal. Nothing about this is reassuring. That Susie Wiles, the Chief of staff, has a harsher view of Donald Trump than, frankly, anything people from the outside of that West Wing say. And see the White House chief of staff describing the President of the United States, the commander in chief, the person atop the nuclear command instructor, as someone with an alcoholic's personality. That the vice President is simply there for politics, that he's an unprincipled conspiracy theorist and has been for a decade. That is not normal. And what it shows is that in a lot of ways, the second Trump administration is similar to the one that came before, but very, very different. Here's how one of Trump's first chiefs of staff, former General John Kelly described his approach to Donald Trump.

Andrew Weissman (33:13)

When I was in the White House, for that matter, dhs, I was, you know, originally conversation would be, you know, Mr. President, that's outside your authority, or, you know, that, you know, that's a routine use. You really don't want to do that inside the United States. When he would tell me that he wanted to do something, 100% of the time, I check with the, with the White House counsel because oftentimes he wouldn't have the authority to do what he wanted to do.

Chris Hayes (33:51)

That was then, though. Now in a second term, Susie Wiles, his chief of staff, is his chief enabler. Bown's telling Vanity Fair this, quote, her job is to actually facilitate Trump's vision and to make his vision come to life, end quote. But at specific moments, far from facilitating the agenda, Wiles actually just blowing Trump's cover. Here's what she says about Trump's campaign to prosecute his political enemies from that Vanity Fair series of interviews. Quote, Back in March, I'd asked Wiles, quote, do you ever go to Trump and say, look, this is not supposed to be a retribution tour? Yes, I do. Susie Wiles replied, we have a loose agreement that the score settling will end before the first 90 days are over. In late August, I asked Susie Wiles, quote, remember when you said to me months ago that Trump promised to end the revenge and Republican retribution tour after 90 days, quote, I don't think he's on a retribution tour. She said a governing principle for him is, I don't want what happened to me to happen to anybody else. And so people that have done bad things need to get out of government. In some cases, it may look like retribution and there may be an element of that from time to time. Who would blame him? Not me. But regarding the Tish James case, Susie Wiles admits this, quote, well, that might be the one retribution. And on the Comey case, Susie Wiles says, quote, I mean, people could think it does look vindictive. I can't tell you why you should not think that. Susie Wiles said of Trump, quote, I don't think he wakes up thinking about retribution, but when there's an opportunity, he will go for it, end quote. In a statement, the White House stood by Susie Wiles today. She released her own statement on X saying that the article was a, quote, hit piece and that it was missing context. Okay? They're literally all her quotes. Joining us now, former DHS chief of staff during Trump's first term. Myles Taylor is here. Also joining us Managing editor of the Bulwark, contributor Sam Stein joins us. Andrew's still here. Miles, I'm dying to know what you think.

Miles Taylor (35:49)

Well, a couple things. I mean, Nicole, when I first read this, my immediate reaction was, okay, Susie Wiles is admitting what we have long known about Donald Trump, that the guy wears his heartlessness on his sleeve. But as you noted, she also blew his cover, that he wears lawlessness as a badge of honor. I mean, she just gave that up completely and in ways that can materially affect some of the cases that they have against Trump's enemies. I mean, she said the quiet part out loud, that these prosecutions are basically vindictive. And I think she'll give people like Letitia James and others some of the legal support they need to make a direct connection between the president's official abuses of power and the actions being taken against them. So that's piece number one. But piece number two, Nicole, I really felt like comparing her to my former boss, John Kelly. She seems a lot more like a bystander in the Oval Office, a lot more like a bystander. She comes off in these interviews like a nice, ish retired lady who says, yeah, Mr. President, that might be bad, but doesn't really do anything to stop it. In fact, says avowedly that her agenda, even if she doesn't agree with it, is to go make the things happen. Seemingly implying that the lawlessness is something she puts up with. And then she went even further. That quote you said earlier, Nicole, that Donald Trump has a view, in her words, that there's nothing he cannot do, nothing. Zero. That's just a full admission that this man doesn't believe he can be stopped by anything, not by the law, not by the Constitution. And her job is to make that happen. That's scary as hell. And John Kelly's view was diametrically opposite of Susie Wiles view. His view was, no, I cannot and should not tell the president he can do illegal things and I should help him create off ramps from doing illegal things and to comply with his duties under the U.S. constitution.

Chris Hayes (37:44)

Miles, you know how I feel in some of our original or earliest conversations had some of this tension in it, that anyone that was a part of it deserves to be held accountable for their role in Trump 1.0, because it was its own basket of horrible things for a lot of people. But I appreciate the distinction you're making, and I want to go deeper with you on that. General John Kelly was loyal to the Constitution. Don McGahn seemed to have a spidey sense for that which was legal. In the January 6th select committee's congressional hearings, Labor Secretary Secretary Scalia seemed to come out and have some sense that the Constitution should be an element in considerations about how to exit Washington after losing in 2020. Bill Barr draws the line and calls Trump's conspiracy theories about losing bs. Susie Wiles isn't wrestling with anything. She acknowledges working for someone with an alcoholic's personality, which seems to fail. Just a very obvious fitness test for the person who sits atop the military chain of command. And, you know, you Talked about the 25th Amendment being discussed in your op ed and in the book. Anonymous I mean, she seems like a witness for Trump's lack of fitness, doesn't she?

Miles Taylor (39:13)

And maybe even more than, you know, sort of a passive witness. I mean, there seems to be almost admissions of guilt here, or perhaps direct admissions of guilt that the president is engaged in abusing his power for political purposes. I mean, this was the exact thing when you and I talked in the early days, Nicole, that I had come forward to talk about, as my worry was, hey, if this guy wins a second term, he is talking about doing all of these things that would be clear abuses of his powers as president to go advance himself politically and to get retribution against his enemies. That's wrong. It's unconstitutional, it's un American. And she seems to be conceding that. That's what this presidency is all about. And I'll also agree with you, Nicole, that, look, in the first Trump administration, myself included, there were no heroes. There were only survivors. But there were two kinds of survivors. People who survived to protect the skin on their own necks, and people who survived to protect the United States Constitution. And you don't have to love them. But we now see very, very clearly and in very stark relief what happens when the only people you have left in government are the ones that want to protect the skin on their own backs. And what you see is the Constitution gets torched. So as bad as the first Trump administration was, and believe me, it was a pride swallowing siege every single day inside that thing. This is what people wanted to prevent from happening. The lawlessness, the complete lawlessness from top to bottom that we are seeing now in just 11 months of this administration.

Chris Hayes (40:45)

I want to ask you one more question about Susie weil's indictment of J.D. vance. She seems to suggest that his conversion is motivated by politics. I wonder if she believes he still believes that Trump is, quote, America's Hitler.

Miles Taylor (40:58)

You know what this made me think, Nicole? It made me think Donald Trump must still talk about it because he never, ever, ever forgets the people who went from critic to supporter. He needles them about it in private. I can remember when Republican lawmakers would come into the Oval Office for bill signings and if they were people who didn't quite support him enough during the campaign, he remembered that even small time freshman congressman and he would needle them about it. So when I saw that quote, I thought, you know what? I bet Donald Trump still has a chip on his shoulder about JD Vance calling him America's Hitler. He probably still vents about it around his chief of staff and he's probably still nervous about it. He's probably still nervous that JD Vance might one day, if Donald Trump does something illegal enough, decide not to stand by him. And to me, you see that reflected in the way Susie Wiles talks about him.

Chris Hayes (41:48)

Andrew Weissman, what is to prevent? I think it's the Comey case that has a vindictive prosecution motion in front of the judge, maybe the Tish James case as well. What's to prevent them from issuing a subpoena to Susie Wiles to testify?

Andrew Weissman (42:03)

Well, right now, just remember those cases don't exist because the Comey cases is, you know, over and they can't seem to get a grand jury to actually bring charges against Letitia James. But your question and Miles point is correct, that the statements that are in the upcoming piece are ones that are going to be used by defense lawyers. Now, they already have an incredibly strong vindictive and selective prosecution claim and they both actually filed that motion. It's just that they don't need to anymore. We'll see what happens if the indictments in some ways get, get, get reinstituted. But I think that you could issue a subpoena to her. You could actually just have the court take judicial notice of it. And it, to me, it's, it's stating the obvious. But I think, I think one of the things that's sort of so clear from her statements is that there was no pushback with the idea that the president was calling the shots. In other words, we're the norm that the White House would not be involved in. DOJ was not even something that there was, there was a pretense on her part to suggest that the president would somehow not have that role. And so I think that is something that a good defense lawyer is going to use sort of up one side and down the other. I also wonder whether I sort of, you know, I'm not a psychologist, but I wonder why did she give this statement? And you sort of wonder whether she was this was a way to try to control him, that essentially nothing else works, that she sort of wanted to both distance herself but also sort of sound an alarm is as faint an alarm as it is, and I'm not giving her credit for it. But is that the only way that you can sort of control somebody who is out of control?

Chris Hayes (44:12)

No one's going anywhere. We'll pull Sam Stein in on the other side of a short break. Stay with us.

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Nicole Wallace (44:50)

Trump continues implementing his ambitious agenda. Follow along with the MSNow newsletter Project 47. You'll get weekly updates sent straight to your inbox with expert analysis on the administration's latest actions and how they're affecting the American people.

Chris Hayes (45:06)

The American people are basically talking, telling the president that they are not okay with any of this.

Nicole Wallace (45:10)

Sign up for the Project 47 newsletter at Ms. Now. Project 47.

Chris Hayes (45:21)

We're back with Miles, Sam and Andrew. So Sam, Trump gave frankly an answer I don't understand. He seemed to defend Susie Wiles by talking about not drinking alcohol. So again, I don't have the skill set to decipher that. But so far he's standing by his woman.

Sam Stein (45:40)

Yeah, I'm not going to speculate like Andrew on the psychology of the decision. For the interview. I will note that she gave 11 interviews over the course of what appears to be many months. So if this was a cry for help, it was a fairly long cry for help. What's striking to me here, though is it's such an indictment of both Trump and his administration that if it were to come from, you know, anyone else's mouth, they would be accused of having Trump derangement syndrome. Right. It's, you know, J.D. vance is an opportunist and a conspiracy theorist. Pam Bonney is ineffectual. Donald Trump as an alcoholic personality, Elon Musk as a ketamine abuser. And not just that, it's the policies too. Right? I mean, they go after the administration for mishandling. She goes after the administration for mishandling. The Epstein files for the US Aid cuts down the line.

Chris Hayes (46:28)

She says Trump is in the Epstein files. I mean, she says Trump is in. She says Pam Bondi whipped. I mean, she ends all of the sort of mysteries in Washington. You know, J.D. vance is a phony, a fraud who's just there for the political expedience of being there because he had to win a Senate seat. Russ Vote is a zealot, something that I've had some of the harshest critics of Project 2025. They've never described him as a zealot. Donald Trump has a, quote, alcoholics personality, something that I don't have the expertise to described, but that's her assessment. I mean, she gives the. To your point, the harshest rebuke, the harshest rebuke of Donald Trump always comes from the people who see him up close every day.

Sam Stein (47:10)

Exactly. And so I guess I disagree ever so slightly with Miles on this one. I think she's, you know, she's on for the ride. I think she views the role of, her role, at least as someone who can actually implement, to the most efficient degree possible, Trump's vision. She's not someone who's going to stand in the way and say, no, these are bad impulses, or this is wrong policy, or even this may be unconstitutional. She views, I believe, her job as someone who says, you are the boss, you're the president, and I am here to implement your orders. And the fact that she went out and publicly disagreed with him doesn't necessarily pose any contradiction to that worldview because her job is not to impose her worldview on Donald Trump, it's to implement his.

Chris Hayes (47:56)

I mean, Sam, that's really interesting because in some ways, that's the ultimate humiliation. We now know that Susie Wiles knows that she's working for someone who. And she tells Chris Whipple that she knows this because of her father. And again, I don't have the training to analyze any of this, but this is just what Susie Wiles said to the journalists. And she's tied herself. And I agree with you. I think she's his lieutenant, you know, sir, yes, sir. But she's carrying out orders for someone she describes as having a, quote, alcoholics personality.

Sam Stein (48:26)

Like, imagine if you were working for administration and you just fundamentally thought that the cuts they made to foreign aid were immoral and raw. And you thought that they completely botched the handling of the Jeffrey Epstein files. And then you thought that, you know, the way that they were implementing the Doge cuts was a wrecking ball. Right. And then on top of that, you thought the attorney general was not doing a good job and the vice president was a conspiracy theorist, and so on and so forth. And down the line, the tariffs weren't actually working and implementing, like they said, that Kimora Abrego Garcia was deported wrongly, and so on and so forth. At some point you'd say, you know what? I've had enough. Right? Like, this is just too much. I don't want to be part of this. I'm not comfortable here. I find these people creepy and immoral. But not Susie Wiles. Susie Wiles has said all these things we know she said, it's on record, but she views her job as simply sucking it up and putting Trump's agenda into place. I don't think I could do something like that.

Lisa Rubin (49:20)

But.

Sam Stein (49:21)

But she can. And it does say a lot about the composition of Trump's second team versus his first.

Chris Hayes (49:27)

Yeah, I mean, Miles, to that point, J.D. vance believes Trump is, quote, America's Hitler. Marco Rubio said worse things about him than anyone I've ever had on the show in nine years. And Susie Wiles believes that Donald Trump has a, quote, alcoholics personality.

Miles Taylor (49:43)

I think Sam's actually right. Sam, we agree, because I do think she's along for the ride. Like you said, she's along for this ride till the end. But she kind of wants to have it both ways. She doesn't want to say Donald Trump is a nakedly lawless president. She just wants to say, well, when he does those things, they're naughty. That's how her terminology comes off. And that's how you can think of the second term. In the face of illegal orders, they say, well, that's naughty and that's bad, but we're going to go implement it anyway. And I think that's why we have.

Chris Hayes (50:12)

To worry about Miles Taylor, Sam Stein, and Andrew Weissman. Thank you all for all of this. Today. Ahead for us, the United States moving full steam ahead with its unauthorized strikes on suspected drug boats. The latest coming overnight, killing another eight people. Very latest on that story. Wind White House continues after a quick break.

Nicole Wallace (50:34)

As President Trump continues implementing his ambitious agenda. Follow along with the Ms. Now newsletter, Project 47. You'll get weekly updates sent straight to your inbox with expert analysis on the administration's latest actions and how they're affecting the American people.

Chris Hayes (50:51)

The American people are basically telling the president that they are not okay with any of this.

Nicole Wallace (50:55)

Sign up for the Project 47 newsletter at Ms. Now. Project 47.