"An avalanche of revelations"

Summary

Deadline: White House — Episode Summary

Podcast: Deadline: White House
Host: Nicolle Wallace, MS NOW
Episode: "An Avalanche of Revelations"
Date: December 12, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on a flood of new revelations concerning the Trump administration’s military actions in the Caribbean, their expanded definitions in counter-narcotics operations, and the legal, ethical, and political consequences unfolding in real time. Nicolle Wallace, joined by key newsmakers including Congressman Adam Smith, political analysts Alex Wagner and John Heilemann, and investigative journalist Carol Leonnig, dissects the legality of recent boat strikes, the consequences of expanded executive power, the state of congressional oversight, and the human cost of Trump’s mass deportation policy. The episode’s tone is urgent, incisive, and fiercely critical.

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1. Explosive Details: The Boat Strikes in the Caribbean

Theme:
A new Washington Post report uncovers the sequence and legality of U.S. strikes on a boat suspected of narco-trafficking in the Caribbean on September 2, leading to the deaths of all on board, and triggering significant calls for investigation into the Trump administration’s military authority and conduct.

Key Segments & Discussion

Opening Context
Nicolle Wallace (01:08):

• Relays the core of the Washington Post story: Two strikes on a boat, the second targeting two men who survived the first and were shipwrecked ("waving their arms and looking skyward").
• Highlights that there is still no clear legal opinion available at the time of the strike; chain of command and legitimacy are in question.

"It is clear that there is enough time...to assess and see, make eye contact and see that there are two survivors... What is the textbook example of where the line is in the laws of war doesn't seem to have been abided by?" (04:49)

Interview: Congressman Adam Smith (Ranking Member, Armed Services Committee)

• Gives a firsthand account of the video evidence: two survivors clinging to wreckage for roughly 40 minutes before the fatal second strike.
  (04:08)
• Raises major legal and strategic concerns:
  • The men were likely "shipwrecked" and therefore should not have been targeted under international law.
  • Trump administration’s expansion of "legitimate targets" by rebranding narco-trafficking as terrorism.
  • Lack of transparency: Congress not briefed before or after; relevant committees still denied intelligence backing.

"Was that really justified? So you've got the authority and then you have how it was specifically used. And more than anything, this investigation is far from over...that video needs to be made public." (06:28)

Chain of Command Confusion

• Decision-making was fragmented: unclear who had authority—variously attributed to JSOC, Southern Command, or SecDef.
• Legal guidance was made days after the strikes (09:01), not seen by commanders until months later.

"The Armed Services Committee and the Intel Committee are supposed to be briefed on these operations. And of course, we didn't find out about any of this until the first boat strike became public." (09:01)

Congressional Oversight & Political Will

• Republicans shown as disinterested or superficially engaged.
• Smith warns of a "new forever war" despite Trump's campaign pledges (12:04).

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2. Expanding the Global War on Terror to the Drug War

Definitional Creep and Impunity (Alex Wagner, John Heilemann)

Challenge to Public Narrative

• Journalists and public must "reframe the terms"; “narco-terrorist” is an invented, broad label to justify deadly force and sidestep legal or moral limits. (16:56)

Alex Wagner: "Did they know that they were at war with the United States? Osama bin Laden did. I'm not sure these two guys did. So...this wasn't just plain old murder ordered by the President and his surrogates is something that I think should still very much be...up for debate." (17:54)

Hollow Justification and Lack of Strategy

• The operation appears disconnected from any coherent US anti-drug policy, especially given focus on cocaine--not fentanyl (the greatest source of the US overdose crisis).
• No serious efforts aimed at demand reduction (education, rehab, etc.), nor are there meaningful actions on Chinese or Mexican fentanyl.

John Heilemann: "Narco traffickers have an economic agenda. They want to make as much money as possible... He then said that the drugs that they bring into the [country] are the equivalent of chemical weapons. That is also ridiculous..." (19:57)

Notable Quote

"Trump goes on television and says...every time we take out one of these boats, 25,000—we save 25,000 American lives. He said that...72,000 people died of fentanyl overdoses last year. On Trump's reasoning, we should be done with this problem." (22:23, John Heilemann)

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3. Trump’s DOJ and the Politicization of Justice

Grand Jury Fails to Indict NY AG Letitia James—Twice

Carol Leonnig (Investigative Reporter)

• Outlines how two grand juries refused to indict Letitia James (and, earlier, Comey) despite direct pressure from Trump and his appointees.
• Judge found Trump's appointment of prosecutor Lindsey Halligan unlawful; DOJ's persistence in refiling called "doubly humiliating" for prosecutors.
• Quotes DOJ manual: re-presenting failed indictments is not standard procedure.

Carol Leonnig: "If in that one-sided location...if twice this body...have said 'this does not compute,' that is a stunning rebuke." (29:42)

Ethics and Integrity Eroded

• Key DOJ leaders are "privately mortified" but publicly compliant to White House wishes.
• Wallace questions whether any shame remains as the rule of law is undermined.

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4. Mass Deportations: Veterans Under Fire

DHS Secretary Kristi Noem Confronted in Congress
(Starts 33:57)

Dramatic Congressional Hearing

• Rep. Joaquin Castro confronts DHS Secretary Kristi Noem over the deportation of US military veterans—especially Purple Heart recipient Se Jun Park, deported to Korea.
• Noem initially denies deporting veterans, then doubles down, refusing to apologize or promise review.
• Showcases the human cost and cruelty of “zero exceptions” enforcement.

Rep. Castro: "He is a combat veteran, a Purple Heart recipient...you deported him...Will you join me in thanking Mr. Park for his service to our country?" (35:03)

Analysis: “Chaos is the Point”

• Alex Wagner critiques the administration for deliberate chaos ("sweeping people up, asking for forgiveness and not permission"), loss of due process, firing of immigration judges, and racial targeting.

Alex Wagner: "If you happen. If you happen to be brown and you happen to have, at one point, not legal status, you're gone. Doesn't matter if you have fought for this country and sacrificed for this country and have a Purple Heart, you're gone. There are no exceptions." (36:36)

Further Testimony

• Congressman Magaziner and Congressman Castro introduce more forcibly deported veterans to highlight the disconnect between Trump rhetoric and action, and the moral consequences.

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5. Political Repercussions: GOP Backlash and Party Cracks

Grassroots and Legislative Pushback

• Indiana State Senate votes against Trump’s pressure to redraw congressional districts (44:50); described as a sharp rebuke to expanding presidential impunity, even among Republicans.

Fractures in Trump’s Base

• A moving testimonial from a veteran Trump voter whose wife is arrested by ICE—admits, “I was an idiot,” exposing disillusionment even among supporters affected by the policies (43:16).
• Wagner notes growing cracks in Trump’s coalition as the human cost and economic pain become impossible to ignore.

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6. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Adam Smith on legality of the strike:
  “If you’re shipwrecked, you’re not supposed to be able to kill the survivors. ... You look at that video, it’s pretty tough to have reached that conclusion.” (05:20)

• Alex Wagner on redefining terms:
  “We’re ceding meaningful ground to the Trump administration calling these people narco terrorists. … The idea that this wasn’t just plain old murder ordered by the President...should still very much be considered up for debate.” (16:56)

• John Heilemann on the bogus terrorism claim:
  “Narco traffickers have an economic agenda. ... That is, we’re not dropping a bomb in someone’s neighborhood. … All of the effective drug strategies start with demand reduction.” (19:57, 20:59)

• Carol Leonnig on the DOJ’s grand jury defeat:
  “If in that one-sided location...if twice this body...have said 'this does not compute,' that is a stunning rebuke.” (29:42)

• Alex Wagner on mass deportations:
  “The chaos is the point. ... The point is to inflict terror and to get as many brown and black people out of the country as possible while simultaneously letting in a handful of white Afrikaners.” (38:09)

• Trump voter, veteran, on regret:
  “Why did you vote for him? Because I was an idiot. ... They said criminal, you know, and I believe criminals need to be off the street. ... That’s who they’re arresting.” (42:35)

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7. Timestamps for Key Segments

• Boat Strike Coverage/Washington Post report: 01:08–16:25
• Interview: Adam Smith on strikes, legality, chain of command: 04:08–16:25
• Panel: Alex Wagner & John Heilemann on redefining narco terrorism, drug war: 16:56–23:07
• Carol Leonnig on DOJ, Letitia James indictment: 25:22–32:25
• Congressional hearing: Veterans deported, Rep. Castro vs. Kristi Noem: 33:57–39:32
• Political blowback, voters' regrets, growing cracks in Trump base: 42:35–44:50
• Indiana Senate redistricting revolt: 44:50–46:34

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8. Conclusion

This episode delivers a damning, detailed look at the Trump administration’s disregard for legal and democratic norms in military action, justice, and immigration. It highlights a growing sense of outrage and resistance—inside Congress, the Republican base, and American civil society. Through firsthand testimony, rigorous analysis, and pointed questioning, it exposes both the human and institutional costs of unchecked executive power.

[Episode continues with coverage of economic stories and news breaks.]

Transcript

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[Nicole Wallace]

Hi there everyone. It's now four o'clock in New York, the Trump administration today finding itself buried under an avalanche of new revelations surrounding what it is they're doing in the Caribbean, news that only fuels the questions and calls for oversight. The latest blockbuster new reporting by the Washington Post based on the accounts of 10 people either briefed on or familiar with the September 2nd boat strikes, it reads like a detailed TikTok of exactly what went down from that new report. Quote, a laser guided bomb had killed nine of the 11 people on board, sunk the boat's motor and capsized the vessel's front end. As smoke from the blast cleared, a live surveillance feed provided by a US Aircraft high overhead showed two men had survived and were attempting to flip the wreckage. The video feed showed that the two men were struggling to stay atop the flotsam, which people who've seen the footage described as roughly the size of a dining room table. Admiral Frank M. Bradley turned to the military lawyer advising him and requested input. Under the law of armed conflict were the men now shipwrecked and therefore out of the fight, rendering them unlawful targets? He ordered a second strike, killing both men. Moments earlier, the video feed had shown them waving their arms and looking skyward. People who saw the footage said it was unclear. They added why they were doing so. Washington Post goes on to report that Admiral Bradley defended his actions to members of Congress, but the central question of whether that second strike was legal remains. Washington Post reports this, quote, there was dissent in the operations room over whether the survivors were viable targets after the first strike. What the lawyer advised, though, and whether they rendered a definitive opinion remains unclear. This new reporting in the Washington Post, like everything else we've learned about the boat strikes over the last few days, underscores why there needs to be an investigation into what happened on September 2 and in boat strikes since then and what the Trump administration plans to do in Venezuela going forward, especially since the administration appears to be either ready to or in the process of upping the ante. Regarding that tanker seized yesterday, sources telling the New York Times today that the ship was carrying oil from Venezuela and that there were no casualties in the operation. New York Times adding this quote, U.S. officials said they expected additional seizures in the coming weeks as part of the administration's efforts to weaken Mr. Maduro's government by undermining its oil market. Ongoing questions about just what happened in the Caribbean and what the Trump administration plans to do next is where we start today. Democratic Congressman Adam Smith joins us. He represents the state of Washington. It's the ranking member of the Armed Services Committee. Thank you so much for being here.

[Congressman Adam Smith]

Thank you for having me. I appreciate the chance.

[Nicole Wallace]

Since a small universe of people have seen the video, would you mind just taking us through what you saw and describing for us what is on the video?

[Congressman Adam Smith]

Well, I think you described it very accurately, and the Washington Post described it very accurately. You see the initial strike, a lot of smoke. Once it clears, you see that the boat has been substantially destroyed and capsized. So they're climbing, clinging to what appears to be the bow of the boat. Now, some of the boat is underwater. How much of it, is it split in half or is the entire boat underwater? It's impossible to tell. And you've got two people basically clinging to that portion of the boat. And you know, that's basically what you see until you finally see the video. I think it's some 40 minutes after the first strike, when the second strike hits, kills the two men and destroys the boat.

[Nicole Wallace]

And it is clear that there is enough time and the Washington Post reports this today for them to assess the impact of the first strike. Assess and see, make eye contact and see that there are two survivors. Is there anything in the video that explains to you why what is the textbook example of where the line is in the laws of war doesn't seem to have been abided by?

[Congressman Adam Smith]

Yeah, there's two big issues here. One, one is the second strike itself. And the basic definition of Shipwrecked, which is, you know, ensconced in international law. If you're shipwrecked, you're not supposed to be able to kill the survivors. And I understand the explanation that Admiral Bradley has given as to why he didn't think they were. But you look at that video, it's pretty tough to have reached that conclusion. But the second bigger, bigger question is what was the targeting instruction in the first place? And this is where people need to be aware of just much. President Trump and Secretary Hegseth are expanding their right to strike targets. They've identified these 25 so called narco terrorist groups. And if you are part of or affiliated with one of those narco terrorist groups, you are now a legitimate target in the same way that Osama Bin Laden and Al Zahiri were back in the day. Presuming that you are about to attack and try to kill Americans. Further, if you have any drugs with you, if you are in the act of transmitting cocaine, in this case, you are legitimate target. That dramatically expands the legitimate target list here. And is somebody on a boat with cocaine shipping it to some transshipment point, probably headed to West Africa or Europe, by the way, not even headed to the US Is that the same as somebody trying to plot flying airplanes into buildings in the United States? I don't think it is. The legal opinions from the Department of Defense have said that it is. And that dramatically expands the targeting. The 11 people on this boat were targeted to be killed. I know a lot of people have taken issue with the Washington Post saying that Secretary Hag says kill everybody as if it was dramatic. Well, he did say kill all 11 people on the boat. So kill them all maybe doesn't adequately describe it, but it's also accurate. He said kill them all, all 11 of them. Was that really justified? So you've got the authority and then you have how it was specifically used. And more than anything, this investigation is far from over. There are way too many questions that have answered. And that video needs to be made public. Let the public see it. There is no reason not to allow that that video to be seen. And I think if it is seen, you'll see a huge increase in the calls for further investigation on this issue.

[Nicole Wallace]

The Washington Post report today describes Admiral Bradley as turning to someone in the room. And it's my understanding that he testified to this and asking for legal advice. Do you have any insight into who gave that advice or what it was?

[Congressman Adam Smith]

We don't. And that's another question that needs to be answered. Here, the whole chain of command and the chain of decision making. And it'd be great if some of this was written down. I mean, this is pretty serious stuff. You'd want to have a clear understanding of what a decision was. So we need to know better. We don't know exactly who gave what advice. We don't know if there was dissenting opinions. We don't even have a clear sense of the chain of command because in theory, Admiral Halsey, who was the Southern Command commander, he is in charge of the aor, the area of responsibility. Anything that happens within his area is supposed to be his call. First and foremost, was he involved in that decision making? And if not, why not?

[Nicole Wallace]

The TikTok is coming together, and I just want to put a few dates in front of you that the public is just learning about. So the first and second strike take place on September 2nd. A legal opinion, it's been reported, doesn't exist anywhere for Admiral Bradley or anybody. It doesn't exist until September 5th. But I've also seen reported that Admiral Bradley and Admiral Halsey don't see it until November. Is that right? And can you flesh that out in terms of what you understand?

[Congressman Adam Smith]

Yes. That is absolute. Yeah, you. You described it 100% accurately. That is how it played out, how it was explained to us by Admiral Bradley. And also, let's remember that the decision to move forward with these attacks on the boats was made in late July. The way presidents normally run these operations is once they've made that decision, they have an obligation to brief the committees of jurisdiction in Congress. And it depends on exactly what's happening. But the Armed Services Committee and the Intel Committee are supposed to be briefed on these operations. And of course, we didn't find out about any of this until the first boat strike became public. So they didn't even follow that. And even after the first boat strike became public, it was several weeks before they briefed us. And to date, they still haven't briefed Congress on the intelligence behind these decisions. So they say they know who these 11 people were. They know they were affiliated with a specific narco terrorist group. How do they know that? Show us your work. That's what the Intelligence committees, the permanent select committees on intelligence in the House and the Senate are supposed to be for. And yet they haven't been briefed with that information. And when you have that lack of accountability, it just undermines any confidence in the decision making and whether or not it's legitimate in the correct decision making.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, and if it's A designation of narco terrorism. Are you aware of any broader counternarcotic strategy that includes the largest sources of illegal drugs to America, like China's fentanyl?

[Congressman Adam Smith]

Yeah, yeah. No. Look, this is all kinds of problematic. I mean, you point out two big problems with it. One I alluded to earlier. We have now expanded the definition, definition of what a terrorist is, and therefore a legitimate target way beyond what the post 911 world did to include anyone engaged in narco trafficking. Crucially, also without congressional approval. Say what you want about the global war on terror after 9 11, it did at least have congressional authorization. Now we don't have that and we've seen this huge expansion. And then second, if the point of all of this is to protect Americans from drugs, which is important and needs to be done, is this really accomplishing that? I mean, there are all kinds of things that go into the problem we have with drug abuse in this country. Does a couple dozen votes in the Caribbean really lead to a significant change in that? Particularly since, as you also pointed out, there's no fentanyl involved in this. No fentanyl involved in this. The drugs they're interdicting seem to more likely be headed to West Africa or Europe. So it just doesn't seem to even connect if you're focused on the drug problem. And then, of course, there's the fact that Donald Trump keeps pardoning drug dealers. So if drugs were really the problem, why is he doing that? To me, it's more about Donald Trump wanting to assert his dominance in the Western Hemisphere than it is about really getting after the very real problem we have in this country with drug abuse.

[Nicole Wallace]

Are any Republicans interested in the answers to any of the questions you just posed?

[Congressman Adam Smith]

Not as interested as they should be. I mean, we did this. You know, we had the hearing. Sorry, we had the briefing. Mike Rogers and I talked to Admiral Halsey a couple days ago. I think, you know, but there is not that interest to really get after the answers. Just ask a couple cursory questions, accept the answer, and move on. I don't think that's enough. Congress really needs to be involved in this and to exercise oversight. We're talking about launching yet another forever war. Remember how Donald Trump ran for president saying, I'm going to stop the forever wars, he's starting them, and we should be far more interested in the implications of that, the legality behind it and where it's going.

[Nicole Wallace]

Let me ask you about that briefing with Admiral Holsey. What was he able to fill in, in terms of the chain of command and his understanding of any strategy or legal rationale for the orders.

[Congressman Adam Smith]

Yeah, not a lot he did on the chain of command piece. And this is a little bit confusing. Who has the actual targeting authority apparently has moved around a little bit. Originally, it was the JSOC commander. That's not supposed to be the way it works. Again, the Southern Command commander, Admiral Halsey, should have had it. In some instances, they will designate that to the SOCOM commander, Special Operations Command. JSOC is one step below socom. Now, ironically or unusually, I guess, the JSOC commander, Admiral Bradley, is now the SOCOM commander. But typically that would have been the person who would have had the authority. But also, Admiral Halsey told us sometimes he did have the authority, sometimes the Sec def had the authority, and sometimes one of the Marine Expeditionary Force commanders had the authority. So that doesn't really make sense and doesn't seem to be a fairly disciplined or approach to making sure that these decisions are following a clear chain of command. So there was that. And then Admiral Halsey did say he felt that he was following legal orders. But in the questioning, it seemed like he really didn't question that very deeply. It was more like, I got the orders, I assume them to be legal, and I went about implementing them.

[Nicole Wallace]

In terms of trying to suss out what is really going on, I don't want to stare at the tree and ignore the forest. And I know I just have another minute with you here. What do you think? Again, I hate to ascribe too much more strategy or motive to them than they deserve, but is there a larger strategy? And if there is, what do you think it is?

[Congressman Adam Smith]

Well, here's what I'm worried about. Number one, I think the larger strategy is what I said earlier. Trump wants power. He wants power for himself. He wants power for the United States under his command. I think it's really about asserting control in the Western Hemisphere, and this is a way to do that. I think Trump also wants to be as free of Congress as he possibly can be. So he wants to do this and say, I'm the executive. I can do this. Congress doesn't have a say. And I think the final piece of this, and something I think is a through line throughout all of the Trump administration's actions, is he wants to make it clear the law doesn't apply to him. Secretary Hegseth feels the same way. On issue after issue on the tariffs on sending troops to US Cities on ice, he has just blatantly disobeyed the law. I always like to use this example, it's not the Department of War, it's the Department of Defense, because that's what the law says, and the law hasn't been changed. And yet Secretary Hegseth insists on calling himself the Secretary of War. They don't think they have to follow the law. They want to be unbound by that so that they have greater freedom. To me, that undermines our representative democracy in our Constitution. Are we a nation of laws, or are we a totalitarian government being ruled by a monarch? I think we're still a nation of laws. I think they're trying to undermine that to enhance Trump's power.

[Nicole Wallace]

Do you believe war crimes were committed?

[Congressman Adam Smith]

I'm not going to reach that conclusion. I think we should absolutely investigate it. I don't like sort of, you know, I don't like Trump being judge, jury, and executioner for any drug trafficker in the world. I'm not going to play that role in assessing the actions here. But they should be investigated. We should find out whether or not the answer to that question is close enough to yes to warrant a prosecution and warrant a further investigation. We shouldn't just sweep it under the rug and walk away.

[Nicole Wallace]

Congressman Adam Smith, thank you for being so generous with your time today. We really appreciate it.

[Congressman Adam Smith]

Thank you.

[Nicole Wallace]

I want to bring into our coverage senior political analyst, contributing host on Pod Save America, the host, host of the podcast Runaway Country, Alex Wagner is back. And PAC News senior political columnist, national affairs analyst John Heilman is also back. Alex, sometimes things are what they appear to be. And a strike that was first reported in the Washington Post to have been a restrike or second strike on shipwreck survivors of the first strike is what these briefings have borne out. So where do we go from here?

[Alex Wagner]

Well, I mean, I think one thing we need to do both as journalists and the American public, is to sort of reframe the terms of the scenario, if you will. I mean, I think we're ceding meaningful ground to the Trump administration calling these people narco terrorists. As Representative Smith lays out, that's a very broad definition of terrorism that allows for use of deadly force, which is very convenient for the Trump administration in whatever this operation is. Secondly, calling it a war crime presumes that the people that we killed knew that we were at war with them, which remains totally unclear. We have no idea who they were. We don't know exactly what they even had after the first strike. They were floating on what sounds like a dining room, an overturned piece of wood the size of A dining room table without shirts on and then were annihilated to become bloody stains on the water. Did they know that they were at war with the United States? Osama bin Laden did. I'm not sure these two guys did. So the idea that this wasn't just plain old murder ordered by the President and his surrogates is something that I think should still very much be considered up for debate. I think the thing to focus on beyond the terms of how we talk about this is also, why are we doing this? The idea that we have no idea why the President of the United States has killed over 87 people in 20 boat strikes, has seized tankers off of Venezuela, is now threatening boots on the ground, and the assumption that this may be a forever war and nobody has any idea why he's doing this. The idea that representatives in Congress, who are the people that are supposed to authorize this in the first place, are just guessing that it's probably a bid for American hegemony, a la Trump's Greenland invasion. I mean, this is absolutely crazy. What it looks like to me, Nicole, is a murderous man out there to serve his ego and trying to rebuild government institutions around that. And it is shocking and is shameful. And I think we need to rethink the entire conception of what is happening here.

[Nicole Wallace]

It would be trickier if it was part of a broad, historic counter drug policy and they were doing innovative things to stop the flow of fentanyl in China and Mexico, the two places from which the most fentanyl makes its way onto American streets, killing Americans, but they're. They're not. And so to Alex's point, where. Where are we right now in this?

[John Heilman]

And there's so much to talk about here, just starting with the last thing you just said. We've been fighting the war on drugs in America since, you know, the early 1980s. So we've got a fair number of decades here. We've never had. It's never been the case in any of those cases. We've had. This is your brain. This is your brain on drugs. We've had the Bush administration, the Reagan administration, the Bush administration, the Clinton administration, and then the second Bush administration. All of them have said that they were in one area or another fighting a war on drugs. That war has been fought in different ways. It's never been the case that anybody, any of those presidents, from the right to the left, have ever said that if you were involved in the narcotics trade, you are a terrorist and therefore an enemy combatant. No one has ever made that assertion before. We don't have. We've not seen the olc, the Office of Legal Counsel, documents that lay out the rationale for that. Many people think that that is a bogus claim. Pete Hagseth at the Reagan Library, when he laid out. When he talked, when he gave a speech last weekend about the national security strategy, said two things, both of which are both wildly misleading and totally untrue. One of which is that narco traffickers are the equivalent of Al Qaeda. You can think whatever you want to think about narco traffickers. They do not have a political agenda. Al Qaeda did. Terrorists have a political agenda. Narco traffickers have an economic agenda. They want to make as much money as possible. That's the first thing. He then said that the drugs that they bring into the are the equivalent of chemical weapons. That is also ridiculous in the sense that we are complicit in the drug trade. We. I don't mean you and me, although, you know, in some cases I might be.

[Congressman Adam Smith]

But.

[John Heilman]

But look, like in the country, we consume fentanyl ravenously. That is, we're not. That is not dropping a bomb in someone's neighborhood. That is the thing that we're a codependent on cocaine, on all of these drugs. There are things where we have a demand problem and a supply problem. And if you think the drugs are bad, the one thing we know is that all of the effective drug strategies start with demand reduction. The reason that the most successful drug policy in the history of the country is the surgeon General declaring cigarettes to be deadly. We have seen cigarette smoking go down over the course of six decades now because people were convinced by the surgeon general and advertising and cultural opprobrium that you will get cancer if you smoke cigarettes.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah.

[Alex Wagner]

And alcohol.

[Nicole Wallace]

Since people have been talking about the alcohol.

[John Heilman]

This. We're not talking about that at all. That's the ultimate thing that's missing in this supposed anti drug strategy. This administration doesn't talk about that in the least. You cannot.

[Congressman Adam Smith]

Like, if it was in this war.

[Nicole Wallace]

You would be doing all the things.

[John Heilman]

You would be doing all those things. All we know from all these decades, the drug war, is that just focusing on supply and trying to interdict drugs does not work.

[Nicole Wallace]

But let me just. I mean. Cause I take Alex's note about the way we talk about it is important. Just focusing on the supply that isn't the largest flow. And that may or may not be coming here.

[John Heilman]

Of course. And look, I know I'm being told, you guys, we have to wrap this block But Trump goes on television and says things like, every time we take out one of these boats, 25,000, we save 25,000American lives. He said that the other day on television.

[Nicole Wallace]

Right?

[John Heilman]

72,000 people died of fentanyl overdoses last year. On Trump's reasoning, we should be done with this problem. We've taken out 23 boats. The numbers, it just doesn't make any sense. There is no fentanyl on these boats. And if there was fentanyl on these boats, we've already apparently solved the problem because there's 72,000 is way too many people dying of fentanyl overdoses. But it's not the, it's not, it's not the scale of what they're trying to describe here. And on top of that, the fen mill comes through the ports all over the country. We have 100,000 containers a day moving through ports. 2% get inspected. We're not serious about this problem. This is not a serious approach to that problem. If you believe that's really what this is all about, which is probably not. It's really probably all about oil.

[Nicole Wallace]

All right, no one's going anywhere. When we come back. Breaking late this afternoon, Donald Trump's Justice Department, dead set on political retaliation against his perceived political enemies, has failed once again to indict Letitia James, one of his so called political enemies. Plus, Kristine Noem was confronted with her own lies about just who the United States has deported. Will show you that dramatic exchange where she's forced to face one of those deportees. And later in the broadcast, Donald Trump's handling of the economy is at another historic low point as his Fed chairman laid a lot of that blame on Trump's key economic policy. All those stories and much more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

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[Nicole Wallace]

Well, good news, bad news, I guess the blows keep coming for Donald Trump's retribution campaign. For the second time in two weeks, a grand jury refused to indict New York Attorney General Tish James for mortgage fraud. That news according to two sources familiar with the presentation of evidence in this case. The DOJ has been trying to refile this case against Tish James after it was dismissed by a federal judge who ruled that the appointment of Donald Trump's handpicked U.S. attorney, Lindsey Halligan was unlawful. A Justice Department spokesperson declined to comment. An attorney for Tish James, Abby Lowell, told Ms. Now in a statement, this quote, this unprecedented rejection makes even clearer that this case should never have seen the light of day. Career prosecutors who knew better refused to bring it. And now two different grand juries in two different cities have refused to allow these baseless charges to be brought. In addition, a federal judge threw out the first indictment, pointing to the illegal appointment of a prosecutor put in place to carry out the president's revenge. This case already has been a stain on the department's reputation and raises troubling questions about its integrity. Any further attempt to revive these discredited charges would be a mockery of our system of justice. I want to bring in senior investigative reporter Carol Leonig, who's been breaking news on this story for weeks now. Alex and John are still here, Carol. I guess the only question I have about Abby Lowell's statement there, the lawyer for Tish James is it's not just career prosecutors who refused to bring this. The political appointee, the original U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia, Eric Seibert, also refused to bring this case, right?

[Carol Leonnig]

That's absolutely right, Nicole. In fact, Attorney General Pam Bondi and Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche really privately stood up for Eric Siebert, who was Donald Trump's choice, a person he nominated, you know, a Republican leaning prosecutor who he believed would be a great leader of this office. But once Seibert said, hey, there aren't enough facts to sufficiently bring a charge against Letitia James or former FBI Director James Comey, for some reason, he was no longer acceptable to Donald Trump. Trump threatened to fire him. Siebert resigned on the night that Trump publicly threatened to fire him or professed that he would fire him and named Lindsey Halligan as the new U.S. attorney. Unfortunately, a judge found for Donald Trump anyway that his appointment of her meet the standards of the law for an acting U.S. attorney and anything she prosecuted was not authorized and not legal.

[Nicole Wallace]

So they went to the grand jury again after getting through the illegality of Halligan's appointment, and there was no true bill. The grand jury said they refused to indict even though people think that a grand jury will indict a ham sandwich. This is the DOJ manual on trying to re indict after you've been rejected by a grand jury. It says this quote, once a grand jury returns a no bill or otherwise acts on the merits in declining to return an indictment, the same manner, the same transaction or event and the same putative defendant should not be presented to another grand jury or resubmitted to the same grand jury without first securing the approval of the responsible United States attorney. So ostensibly, if anyone is following Emmanuel, and this may be a dumb question, as I'm hearing it come out of my mouth, they went back to someone who could make that decision to be rejected again today.

[Carol Leonnig]

That's right. And you know, I'm so glad you read from the manual because it seems so quaint now, the way things should have been done and the way they're being done now. I mean, these calls are being directed from the White House and there is no embarrassment about that. Despite the Department of Justice's integrity and credibility, relying on it being independent from the White House and from the president in this case, I guess what's most important to emphasize is it's a massive humiliation for prosecutors when they fail to get one grand jury indictment, one. And to go back and do it a second time, well, it just is, I don't know how you say, doubly humiliating. I don't know how it could be worse to lose a second time. You know, there are a lot of lawyers I've been talking to in the last 24 minutes since all of this broke and we were able to publish on our site at msnow. And so many of them are either independently reaching out, calling, texting to say, you know, essentially a version of good God, it's so clear that the facts don't add up. If in a one sided presentation, Nicole, where Only the Assistant U.S. attorney is presenting the facts, there is no pushback from defense. There is no opportunity for the other side to say their point of view, their defense, their claims, their disputes with this information. If in that one sided location where a office that generally leans pro government in a heavy way because it has a lot of defense folks, military folks that work there, if twice this group of this body of grand jurors have said this does not compute, that is a stunning rebuke.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, you used the word humiliation. I mean, is it clear to you in covering this Justice Department that Pam Bondi and Todd Blanche have that range of emotion? Have you seen them humiliated since you've been covering them?

[Carol Leonnig]

Sensitive question, Nicole, as usual. Thanks a lot. Privately, we know from sources that they are embarrassed by what's happening here. In particular, Todd Blanche has been concerned about the weakness of these mortgage fraud cases in particular, and they just don't look good for the Department of Justice. And he has served in it before and knows how this works. And although Pam Bondi has not, she has been a prosecutor on the state level. But what I've heard mostly from sources is that Blanche is basically privately mortified, but not at all buckling publicly from what his commander in chief, his president, wants.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, it's amazing. I mean, and I guess I asked because if people had shame, we wouldn't be destroying the rule of law in America. So it just, it feels like an important part of the story. And I'm really grateful to you for pulling the curtain back on that. It's fascinating. Carol, thank you as always for breaking this news with us after the break. Kristi Noem pushed by a congressman today to face a US Veteran who was deported by her agency in a dramatic hearing on Capitol Hill. We'll bring it to you next.

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[Nicole Wallace]

Earlier today, the lies that have largely propped up Donald Trump's rather brutal mass deportation campaign were revealed. They were laid bare in public as his DHS secretary, Kristi Noem was confronted with the impact of mass deportation. Not on the worst of the worst that they claim they are targeting, but on the people, the best of the best. The people we are, by and large as Americans, proud to call our fellow Americans. In a congressional hearing today, Kristina Owen was asked about DHS under her watch, deporting the very people who have given the most to our country, our country's veterans. Watch this.

[Congressman Joaquin Castro]

How many United States military veterans have you deported?

[Alex Wagner]

Sir, we have not deported U.S. citizens or military veterans.

[Congressman Joaquin Castro]

I don't believe you've served in the military. I haven't either. But I think you and I can agree that as Americans, we owe everything to those who have served our country in uniform, particularly those who have served in combat. Do you agree with that?

[Alex Wagner]

Sir, I believe that people that are.

[Nicole Wallace]

In this United States, that are citizens, have legal status here.

[Congressman Joaquin Castro]

Those Madam Secretary, we are joined on zoom by a gentleman named Se Jun Park. He is a United States army combat veteran who was shot twice while serving our country in Panama. He is a combat veteran, a Purple Heart recipient. He has sacrificed more for this country than most people ever have. Earlier this year, you deported him to Korea, a country he hasn't lived in since he was seven years old. Will you join me in thanking Mr. Park for his service to our country?

[Alex Wagner]

Sir, I'm grateful for every single person.

[Nicole Wallace]

That has served our country and follows our laws.

[Congressman Joaquin Castro]

Can you please tell Mr. Park why you deported him?

[Alex Wagner]

Every one of them needs to be enforced.

[Nicole Wallace]

So she's actually articulating a fascinating and wildly unpopular policy there. Kristi Noem. They're saying on camera in front of Congress that she does intend to deport veterans if at any point they came to this country illegally. She does eventually break down and agree to look at the case, and then she ducked out of the hearing early. We're back with Alex and John. Alex, I think we're all of, like, mind about the heinous nature of how they're going about mass deportation of human beings, the terror that they're intentionally creating in communities all over our country. And what she made clear today is the intentional deportation of veterans of the United States military.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, because that veteran happened to be brown. And the target list is people who are people of color. I mean, I think there's. I read into it two things, Nicole. One is there, you know, Trump says this is about taking out the garbage, getting the worst of the worst out of the country, that it doesn't matter if you're a Purple Heart recipient. If you happen. If you happen to be brown and you happen to have, at one point, not legal status, you're gone. Doesn't matter if you have fought for this country and sacrificed for this country and have a Purple Heart, you're gone. There are no exceptions. The second piece of it is I actually don't think they even have. They have no hands on this. They have no eyes on the scope of these deportations. They know they're happening. There's hundreds of thousands of people who've been taken out of this country. But I think it's incredibly chaotic by design. I mean, for my podcast, I talked to an immigration judge who just been fired. Because part of the agenda here is to diminish the resources that have been allocated in years prior to make sure the system of deportation or granting asylum is orderly and lawful. There is no due process. People don't know what they're doing. They're firing immigration judges, who, by the way, have caseloads numbering into the tens of thousands. The Trump administration is actively firing them. So there are fewer resources for the legal process. They're bringing in, in some cases, military lawyers to expedite the process. But ultimately, the chaos is the point. Sweeping people up, asking for forgiveness and not permission, figuring out the law later, figuring out whether you've deported a Purple Heart recipient.

[Carol Leonnig]

These are.

[Alex Wagner]

But these are the details. The point is to inflict terr and to get as many brown and black people out of the country as possible while simultaneously letting in a handful of white Afrikaners and saying publicly, as President Trump did in Pennsylvania on Tuesday. He'd rather have people from white western countries like Norway and Scandinavia, better places, not the garbage people who fight and sacrifice for this country and win Purple Hearts in the process.

[Nicole Wallace]

Let me show you some more of what the people who have fought and sacrificed for this country are enduring under Donald Trump. This is Alejandro Barranco.

[Congressman Joaquin Castro]

You've already heard the story of Lance Corporal Alejandro Barranco, the United States Marine veteran who is behind you, who also has two brothers who are United States Marines. Will you thank Lance Corporal Barranco for his service?

[Nicole Wallace]

Thank you for your service.

[Congressman Joaquin Castro]

His father, Narcisco Barranco, is a landscaper in California who has lived peacefully in our country for 30 years and has no criminal record. Will you consider Lance Corporal Barranco's father for parole in place to stay in our country owing to the fact that he has contributed to our country by raising three United States Marines.

[Alex Wagner]

This is an opportunity to remind everybody.

[Nicole Wallace]

That every person that's in this country illegally has an opportunity to voluntarily go.

[Alex Wagner]

Home, come back the right way.

[Nicole Wallace]

Again, another, you know, a few. And the three Marines he wrote in on. Unbelievable. Not first of all unbelievable that she was confronted with the monstrosity of what they're doing, but that she would not say that someone whose three sons have given their life in service of the United States of America. It's the person who, when you think, who would shoot a puppy, I mean, Kristi Noem wrote in her own book that she shot her puppy. That's who she is.

[John Heilman]

I think that first of all, congratulations to Congressman Magaziner there, who as a piece of, we often talk about how Democrats don't know how to do the theater of this. And I say theater not to demean it, but to praise it. I mean, that's the totally legit function. And they went out and found some people that really made Christine Holmes squirm there. But her performance is so bad that it does call into question or not call into question. It suggests the following thing, which is that, you know, this is one of these obvious places where the constituency of one, the Donald Trump of it all, has taken people. Whatever you think of her as a human being or as a sentient being on planet Earth, you know, she's not. She has some political skills that she had exhibited in the past. You know, she won some offices, statewide offices. Any sane politician in that moment would do the calculation in their head.

[Congressman Adam Smith]

At the worst case, Donald Trump wouldn't.

[Nicole Wallace]

Have answered the question the way she did.

[John Heilman]

Right, Donald Trump. I mean, exactly right. You would think to yourself, even if you were a complete thug, you would think, how many of these, how many veterans have we actually swept up? It's probably not that many, Right. What would it cost me in this moment to say, you know, our veterans are the greatest heroes we have in America. We owe a huge debt to them. If someone has been mistakenly swept up, if someone has been swept up in these raids, obviously we owe a lot to them. We should look into this. And if she had said that from the very beginning, just graciously expressed her gratitude for their service and said she was willing to look into any case like this to see if something had gone wrong and they had done something that could be remedied, the whole, all of the energy of that piece of theatrics that the congressman did so successfully there, all of it would have gone away. But she's lost her political compass cuz she's thinking, what will Donald Trump say if I give an inch? What will Donald Trump say if I admit that we might have made a small mistake? Obviously the right thing to do just in terms of the politics here would have been to just cut that thing off quickly and say we'll look into any of these cases involving veterans. Thank you, let's move on.

[Carol Leonnig]

Right.

[Nicole Wallace]

Or you know what, I'll call the president.

[John Heilman]

You know, and you know, exactly. With Trump in his non diminished state, Trump would have done that in a heartbeat. He would have gone over the, giving the guy a hug and said, oh, I'm sorry ma', am, if we screwed this up, it's on me.

[Nicole Wallace]

Right over the White House. Yeah, no one's going anywhere. There's more that I want to show you. Also ahead after the break, Indiana Republicans facing down public threats of a extortion primaries made a call on redistricting. We're going to tell you about. Bring it to you next.

[Congressman Adam Smith]

You also voted for President Trump. Yes, sir. Why did you vote for him? Because I was an idiot. 80% of the evangelical Christian people were lied to, if you really want to know the truth. And that's exactly what happened. They said criminal, you know, and I believe criminals need to be off the street. I just want to make sure people watching this understand who you are. My wife and I, when we don't work, we're ministers. We help the needy. That's what we do. We, and that's, that's who they're arresting.

[Nicole Wallace]

That's a United States veteran describing dramatically the experience of watching his wife, who had been in the US for decades, be arrested by ICE after he voted for Trump in this last election. We're back with Alex and John. Alex, I feel like we need to see more of that and give space and grace to people who say, look, I was an idiot. But it is important to understand that even his supporters didn't think he'd do what he's doing.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. And if you look at the bottom of the screen, it's a panel about the cost of rising health care costs, which is like the double whammy he is. He's debasing Americans. He is tearing families apart. And the central premise of his reelection, which was to make America more affordable, is a complete fallacy, a complete lie. In two weeks or thereabouts, Americans are going to see their health care costs skyrocket. I talked to someone whose health care premiums are going to go from 100 to $800 a month. The center can't hold on this stuff. It is one thing to just, just not deliver, but to act in the way that he has, which is so dehumanizing, so cruel and such an insult to not only the Americans who didn't vote for them, but the Americans who did, who believed in something, anything about this man. It's just, you know, I mean, and this is why, Nicole, we are seeing, I think this week and in weeks prior the beginnings of real cracks with this president and his base. I think that he is in significant trouble. And it is only the stress is only going to increase in the coming month.

[Nicole Wallace]

One more break. Well, I'll be right back. We have some news to tell you about. The Indiana State Senate moments ago decided not to bow to Donald Trump and redraw their state's congressional districts as he wanted them to in a vote of 19 to 31. For reference, there are 50 members of the Senate, 40 Republicans, 10 Democrats. It is a sharp rebuke of Donald Trump, who pushed for Indiana to redraw its congressional map so that Republicans would gain two more seats in the House of Representatives when Democrats only need three to flip the House. JD Vance even visited the state twice on this issue. Lawmakers also faced swattings and pipe bomb threats and unsolicited pizza deliveries. As for Donald Trump, he continued his pressure campaign as late as last night, threatening Senate leader Roderick Bray, a Republican who does not support redistricting with a primary challenge. Looks like that did not work. Bray was a no. We'll stay on top of that story for you. I want to thank John Heilman and Alex Wagner for joining me today. To be continued, friends. Up next for us Trump's burgeoning political problems is previewed by John and Alex just how expensive everything is and his complete denial about all of it, saying it's a democratic hoax. The next hour of deadline White House starts after a quick break. El Programa Nacional de Vegas a serde. El camino parallos casigan esta desuna historia.

[Congressman Adam Smith]

De progreso Yel siguerte capitulo, los Cribestu.

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