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- [00:00]
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- [00:29]
MSNow Host
As President Trump continues implementing his Ambit agenda, follow along with the MSNow newsletter Project 47. You'll get weekly updates sent straight to your inbox with expert analysis on the administration's latest actions and how they're affecting the American people.
- [00:46]
Nicole (Main Host)
The American people are basically telling the President that they are not okay with any of this.
- [00:50]
MSNow Host
Sign up for the Project 47 newsletter at Ms. Now. Project 47.
- [01:02]
Political Analyst
Our laws are clear. You can refuse illegal orders.
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Nicole (Main Host)
You can refuse illegal orders.
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Political Analyst
You must refuse illegal orders.
- [01:10]
Nicole (Main Host)
No one has to carry out orders
- [01:12]
Congresswoman Chrissy Houlihan
that violate the law or our Constitution.
- [01:17]
Nicole (Main Host)
Hi again everybody. It's five o' clock in New York. They warned us. And here we are, just three hours away from Trump's deadline for Iran to open the Strait of Hormuz or, quote, a whole civilization will die tonight, never to be brought back again, end quote. And while Pakistani officials are proposing a two week delay to that deadline, Donald Trump's existential threat to Iran is already putting the US Military in the unprecedented position of either obeying the commander in chief as he publicly vows to commit what would amount to war crimes against the civilian population or or engage in a widespread act of defiance of illegal orders. While Trump's threats might have been intended to force the Iranians to come to the table and make a deal, it so far appears to have had the opposite effect. As US And Israel bombed roads and bridges throughout the day in Iran in an effort to force Iran to open the strait. The New York Times reports this, quote, Iranians formed human chains along bridges and around power plants around the country. Videos and photographs posted by state and local media showed, in effect, daring the United States and Israel to kill civilians in order to hit those sites. It was unclear whether the gatherings were arranged by the government, which has organized rallies in its support throughout the war. In the last half hour, Donald Trump called those human chains, quote, totally illegal and said, quote, they're not allowed to do that. And as Trump's attempts to bring the Iranians to the negotiating table by force fail. Experts are warning that the leadership of the US Military could be facing legal jeopardy. One of those experts telling the Washington Post this quote, I'm concerned that the president's bombast is putting the operational commanders in a very difficult position. That's according to Jeffrey Corn, who served as a top law of war Expert at the US army in Iraq in 2004 and 2005, who adds this quote, they know that you cannot just draw a circle around the country and say every element of the electrical grid is now a lawful target. It's a concern echoed by a frequent guest on this program, former Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling.
- [03:33]
Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling
I'm sure there's a lot of military commanders right now, a lot of senior officers who are saying to themselves, I can't obey an unlawful order. I can't do things that I know are absolutely wrong. But they also feel like they have to provide support for their soldiers who don't just get to quit. It's really causing some dynamics with within those who are thinking soldiers saying, how do I continue to serve my Constitution and live by the rules that are in law and still conduct these kind of actions, which are horribly immoral and illegal.
- [04:12]
Nicole (Main Host)
Trump's existential threat to Iran and the untenable position he is putting our nation's military in is where we begin the hour with retired US Army Brigadier General Steve Anderson. With with me at the table for the hour, Puck News senior political columnist and national affairs analyst John Heilman. General, I start with you and just want to hear everything, how you see this moment.
- [04:35]
Brigadier General Steve Anderson
Well, thank you, Nicole, for having me. I know General Hertling well. He was in my company at West Point 50 years ago. Hard to believe. And he's spot on target. I mean, we are really putting our military leadership in a bind. And the video that Senator Kelly and others produced a couple of months ago is really prescient because we've come to a moment in which it looks like they may be asked to conduct illegal orders, to obey illegal orders, because that's what committing a war crime is. I mean, there's an entire protocol associated with evaluating appropriate targets within the theater, and they always include a legal review. And if it's something that has to do with a civilian target, it's more important than ever to have a legal review. And of course, then it's got to be signed off by the appropriate commander. And the more difficult, the more impact that the target may have, the higher in rank would be the approving authority. This has to happen for every single target. So for the president to say we're going to totally annihilate the company or entire country and is absolutely ludicrous. We're setting ourselves up for failure. I remember, and I'm sure many any student of history would as well, the Nuremberg trials. I wasn't born yet, but I certainly know the impact. You know, where we had 12 senior leaders in the German military that were hung, they were executed because they committed war crimes. Their crime at the time was to obey the orders of those appointed over them, including, you know, of course, Adolf Hitler. What I would like to not see is a situation down the road in which our soldiers face legal ramifications. Some kind of a military tribunal for the military orders that they may be conducting, you know, that are simply illegal. Those a tribunal stood up by the Hague or some other international court, Donald Trump may very well try to pardon them, but they're not going to be able to withstand legal action from an international standpoint. And that's what really, really worries me at this time.
- [06:51]
Nicole (Main Host)
And I think the careful point you're trying to make is that hiding under an order from Trump to Hegseth is not a defense if the laws of war are violated. And I want to bring it back to that video that so rattled Trump's cage. He tried to prosecute the six members of Congress and that they didn't get a single member of a grand jury to agree to indict them. He tried to use the Pentagon's justice system to punish Senator Mark Kelly. That didn't work either. So let me read you what Senator Slotkin tweeted today. Quote, I know that our service members up and down the chain of command know that their duty and the law to refuse illegal orders, even as the Commander in chief tells the world otherwise. It is moments like these that are why we made the video to service members last year. And I hope and believe our troops, especially those in command, will have the moral clarity to push back if they are given clearly illegal orders. What? What is she saying?
- [07:54]
Brigadier General Steve Anderson
What she's saying is that our soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines, swear an oath to the Constitution, not to a person. Okay? And that means that they will obey legal orders and disobey illegal orders. Committing a war crime to target a water desalinization plant or a power grid that includes a hospital. That would be a war crime, an illegal order. And she's saying, and they very rightfully reminded us all of the importance of understanding that every soldier, sailor, airman, Marines, has the right and the obligation to disobey illegal orders.
- [08:39]
Nicole (Main Host)
Let me Read you one more reaction today to Trump's post this morning. Quote, threatening to eliminate a civilization is comparable to genocide that is illegal, immoral, and should not be in the vocabulary of an American president. The ominous sentiment he's suggesting would be a criminal act. Unfortunately, he's put our professional military officers in a very difficult situation. They cannot carry out an illegal order. Our allies are no longer just skeptical, they're shocked and appalled. And they can't tolerate even the suggestion, let alone the behavior he's talking about. And I think he's not focused on realistically ending this conflict as he seems to have lost control. In fact, he's become as fanatical as the regime leaders in Tehran. So now you seem to have two groups of fanatic leaders battling each other. That's not a good outcome for the world or for peace. What do you make of the things that we can't walk back from, that we all are as Americans, represented by his threat of genocide and his conduct on the world stage.
- [09:44]
Brigadier General Steve Anderson
Well, it is so sorry to see the degradation to the American culture and the way of life that Donald Trump is executing every day. We've always been the beacon on the Hill, the bright shining light, the example of what a good democracy and what good people can do for the world. And we're just doing the opposite. We're acting like a predatory bully. You know, Iran is looking like the rational reactor right now, even though they're being led by a bunch of religious fanatics. They look almost reasonable insane in comparison to our own president who's embarrassing us every day, who's dragging this country down. America's stock has never been lower than it is right now. We have no allies. You know, the NATO, NATO allies are shaking their heads. I mean, I think Charles Manson has a higher approval rating in Denmark than does Donald Trump. You know, the gcc, they're saying, hey, wait a minute. We put all these bases over here in the Gulf to protect us. And now they're being targeted. All Japan, Korea, the insults to Australia and others. We are just going downhill fast. And it's all because of Donald Trump. And it's really because the gop. The cowardice of the GOP has allowed this to happen. Where is the outrage? Where are they complaining? Where is anybody calling for the 25th Amendment to be enacted? Because that really should happen. This man has absolutely lost it. And the Republican Party is letting down this nation and they're disobeying their own oath of office by not standing up and exercising the rights as the Congress of The United States.
- [11:32]
Nicole (Main Host)
It's not just the general saying it. Laura Ingraham has questioned whether Trump can, quote, take information in. Alex Jones said he's, quote, gone. Marjorie Taylor Greene said he's insane. Scaramucci said he's threatening nuclear annihilation. 25th Amendment. I mean, the list of people making these arguments is longer than the list of people speaking on this news cycle not making these points.
- [12:00]
Political Analyst
So as you know, because we've been doing this for a while, right? I'm not a Johnny come lately on this question. I mean, I think the, the issue of Donald Trump's cognitive decline has been evident not just in the last few recent weeks, but has been, was evident in the fall of 2024. But when we were going through the presidential election, I remember wrote a column about it and said, you know, there were lots of signs that. And I, I don't. People often confuse this with psychological analysis, armchair psychiatry. I'm just talking about cognitive decline here. I'm talking about the inability to string together coherent thoughts, the diminution of vocabulary, the inability to kind of make coherent arguments, all of that.
- [12:42]
Rick Stengel
Right.
- [12:43]
Political Analyst
So this feels like this point, we've been building to this point for a long time now. And I would say that, you know, that if you couple that with the more precise point that we've been talking about here. So you've got, first you've got Trump's diminution. Is he still all there? Can he understand the information he's getting? Is he making sense of it? Has he lost it? Right, that's one thing. And then there's the question of the situation the military finds itself in. And one of the things that has not, I think, gotten enough discussion is the fact that part of the reason why those congresspeople put that video out was because of what had happened with the Venezuelan boat strikes in the fall.
- [13:22]
Nicole (Main Host)
Croatian boat strikes.
- [13:23]
Political Analyst
We saw those boat strikes off the coast of Venezuela and there were signs and reporting that you had members of the military who were leaving their jobs, stepping down from important command posts without really explaining why. But the reporting suggested, and a lot of speculation was coincides that they were saying, I'm being given illegal orders here. And so that part of what raised it, that was in October when the words war crime first started to get into our vocabulary in terms of discussing Trump's increasingly bellicose attitude in a lot of places in the world. We didn't see that in Trump 1.0. We really have seen it a lot over the course of the last, not just the last few weeks, but over the course of the last 14 or 15, 15 months. And so on one level, it feels like we're sitting here on this precipice of potential catastrophe and of a totally remade world, a world where we went through with something approaching, forget about some of the hyperbole from what Trump said today, just the stuff he was talking about yesterday, the kinds of strikes on civilian infrastructure, or partially civilian infrastructure, taking out the Iranian electrical grid, which is possible to do that, would cause the lights to go out for six months in Iran, would trigger such a massive humanitarian crisis in Iran and would almost certainly not achieve regime change, a popular uprising. What we've seen in history, and a lot of the people who studied this have pointed this out over and over again, is that those kinds of large scale air offensives tend to harden resistance, rally the people to their current leaders and cause people to dig in. And, and in that world where we still haven't gotten what we really want, right, which is to open the Strait of Hormuz literally the way in which our geopolitical order, which a lot of people assumed would be Russia, China, the United States, those are the great powers, we're elevating Iran into that, literally strengthening the other axis into that pantheon and strengthening China and Russia in the bargain. So we're sitting here on this precipice that feels so strange, watching our, looking at our watches, saying a few hours from now we could be on the way towards a new, a genuinely new and much scarier world order. And on the other hand, it's really strange. And on the other hand, it feels like for almost 10 years we've been kind of building to a moment that would crystallize all of this. The kind of what have we done? Moment. Right? Yeah. Like, how did it ever get to this point?
- [15:58]
Nicole (Main Host)
I mean, I guess it got here because I know there's a complicated answer. No, but I mean, look, it's a good place to hit pause. I mean, we got here because. And the reason Marjorie Taylor Greene and Alex Jones and Tucker Carlson are news is because they used new media and disinformation and political fealty and a little, a hefty dose of sort of threats of political violence at various points and at various junctures. Marjorie Taylor Greene's actually now been on the receiving end of threats against her own family. But, you know, all manner of dark and politically toxic tools to elect Trump twice.
- [16:39]
Political Analyst
Yes. And on top of that, you have those people who all are welcome, I say, to the world in which they are criticizing Donald Trump this way. Thank you. I'm glad to hear them making the arguments they're making. They enabled this in their way, in the way that you just described. And then there's this whole other, much more, I think, corrosive cadre of what we used to think of as normal Republicans who decided to stay silent for years and years and years about Donald Trump when all of them privately knew
- [17:08]
Nicole (Main Host)
Rob Portman, John Cornyn.
- [17:10]
Political Analyst
Yes. And the people around him, the administration. We were talking about this before we came on air. If you read this Maggie Haberman and John Swan piece that's basically derived from their forthcoming book that's in the New York Times today about how Trump made these decisions. It is a portrait of a Cabinet, all except for a couple basically nurturing profound ambivalence and doubts about this war. And all of them afraid to sit in a meeting with Donald Trump and say, Mr. President, I think this is a bad idea. And up to and including General Kaine, who is presenting both sides. And people in the room are like, we can't really tell what he's for. He won't offer an opinion. He would lay out the risks, but also lay out the rewards. No one wants to do what we all, Democrat or Republican or whoever, what we all need people around the president to do, which is to occasionally go, Mr. President, this is a bad idea. It's going to end badly. Let me tell you why I think it's going to end badly. None of them do it. And they are a perfect reflection of what the whole Republican, the normal part, the mainstream part of the Republican Party has done now for a decade. Those people on the far right are a different category of complicity. But the combination of those two forms of incitement and complicity on one side and kind of, you know, turn your eyes and look away and pretend like it's not potentially as bad as it could get. That kind of Republican is another kind of Republican, and together that is a large part of why we are where we are.
- [18:35]
Nicole (Main Host)
Well, and just importantly, from the piece of reporting in the New York Times that you mentioned, what is clear from the report is that this was not a U.S. national security principles meeting. This was a foreign visit from Bibi Netanyahu that first started it.
- [18:49]
Rick Stengel
Yes.
- [18:49]
Nicole (Main Host)
He pitched them a plan to attack Iran. That Ratcliffe in the situation.
- [18:54]
Political Analyst
Have you ever heard of a foreign head of state sitting in the Situation Room with the president ever? No, not me.
- [19:00]
Nicole (Main Host)
That Ratcliffe called, quote, farcical, and then Rubio translated and described in that piece as it's bullshit quote. Bullshit.
- [19:08]
Political Analyst
Yeah.
- [19:09]
Nicole (Main Host)
So not only, not only Trump was
- [19:11]
Political Analyst
like, let's go ahead.
- [19:12]
Nicole (Main Host)
Not only were they ambivalent or opposed to war with Iran, two of his top national security officials, I think Rubio has like three titles called Netanyahu's presentation farcical bullshit.
- [19:23]
Political Analyst
And then at the end decided, Mr. President, this is what you want to do, go ahead and do it. Having basically retreated from that language from that first meeting, by the end, they're basically kind of saying, okay, I mean, you know, sure, do it.
- [19:37]
Nicole (Main Host)
Brigadier General Steve Anderson, thank you for the frame you put around this conversation. Starting us off how this sticks around. When we come back, one of the six Democratic lawmakers who made that video we showed you and have been talking about reminding the men and women of the military that they can and must refuse illegal orders. Democratic Congresswoman Chrissy Houlihan is our next guest. Also ahead, Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin once again marching in lockstep, this time over the future of the pro Russian, Christian, nationalistic, autocratic leader of Hungary. Today with Donald Trump threatening to wipe out the civilization of Iran, the sitting vice president of the United States was dispatched to Budapest, nabe to prison. Pop up maga darling, Victor Orban. It doesn't sound very America first to you. You're not wrong. We'll get to that later in the hour. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
- [20:33]
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- [21:32]
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- [21:49]
Nicole (Main Host)
I want to bring in Democratic Congresswoman Krissy Houlihan of Pennsylvania. She's a member of the House Armed Services and Intelligence Committees. She served as an officer in the Air Force and was one of the six elected officials who released a video warning men and women of the military not to obey any illegal orders. Thank you so much for being here.
- [22:08]
Congresswoman Chrissy Houlihan
You're welcome. Thank you for having me.
- [22:11]
Nicole (Main Host)
Does it make more sense now that Trump completely freaked out and tried to have all of you prosecuted when you watch the conduct of this White House?
- [22:21]
Congresswoman Chrissy Houlihan
Well, I would say that it's not surprising. It's devastating and horrifying, but it's really not surprising. I guess I would say it's pretty hard to believe that you and I are having this conversation about the fact that the Commander in Chief has just called for the eradication of a civilization that clearly is a violation of American law, clearly puts our men and women in service in legal jeopardy, should they follow an order, an actual order that asks them to do that. Because anytime you're talking about threats to civilian violence, you're talking about a war crime and a legal order, and obviously,
- [23:02]
Nicole (Main Host)
the men and women at the military know that. So what do you think they're thinking or what conversations do you think are happening that we don't see?
- [23:12]
Congresswoman Chrissy Houlihan
Sure. I think it depends. I think it depends on where in the. In the structure you are at the combatant command level, sort of the most senior level, where those decisions are going to be made or typically are made about kind of the scale and scope of. Of an attack that the Commander in Chief authorizes. They're the ones who have to really consider themselves in legal jeopardy, moral jeopardy as well, if they. If they are given an order to do anything close to what the President said. Every bridge, every power plant, a whole civilization dies. So they have to make some really hard choices. And you may have seen some of those choices already be made with some of the firings and people leaving. Unfortunately, you may have also seen that where they've moved the jack or the lawyers out of the decision process, and then at the lower levels, where people are flying or marching, those people are given specific orders, specific packages, and specific targets. And there's where I hope that the system will excel, the exquisite capability of our military will stand firm, because I hope that those will be properly vetted for their military value and against their civilian opportunity.
- [24:29]
Nicole (Main Host)
What are you hearing from? I think you have a lot of military families in your district. What are you hearing? I just can't imagine having a son or a daughter or spouse or child there, and you're worried about their safety. You know, they've trained for this. But now you're also worried that they may have to worry about whether or not their orders are legal. What are you hearing from military families? Sure.
- [24:51]
Congresswoman Chrissy Houlihan
I have people in this office who have sons and daughters in the area. I have people who come from this office who are in the area as well. And I come from a strong military heritage in addition to having been active in the military myself. I think that people are really worried. The calls here in this office have been off the hook, both here in the district where I'm talking to you and also down in Washington, D.C. and I come from a purple place, one that's nearly equally divided between Republicans and Democrats. 40, 40 and a pretty big significant part of independent voters to, to a T, to a person. Those people who are calling are absolutely alarmed by what it is that the commander in chief has, has uttered. And it follows quickly on the heels of what he said on Easter Sunday of all days.
- [25:39]
Nicole (Main Host)
Do you think that Congress should be in session? Congressman Garcia made the point that Mike Johnson decided that spring break was a better use of the Congress's time this week as this war is going to
- [25:50]
Congresswoman Chrissy Houlihan
be in the last in since the Congress came into session, the 119th Congress came into session. He's decided that that's of action a lot. He sent us home an awful lot. And here we are on, on recess, working still, but not in Washington, D.C. and that's deliberate. He's keeping us away from any authority and powers that we have. Some of the powers that we still have is the authorized use of military force, constitutional requirement where we could vote on something like that. And I believe that it's possible that there may be enough Republican votes at this point in time to pass that. But as long as we're here, the majority has the rule of not allowing us to go back to Washington, D.C.
- [26:30]
Nicole (Main Host)
i mean, John Hamon, that's an interesting point. When you look at the polls, they're only going in one direction. And it seems to be something that Republicans are taking in as they are sort of inching closer and closer toward political concerns about an unauthorized war.
- [26:47]
Rick Stengel
Right.
- [26:48]
Political Analyst
And I mean, it's not that they are, that they seem to be going only in one direction. They are only going in one direction. I mean, and you will remember better than most, right. That there was a time in a lot of second term presidents, second terms, when they start to decline politically and then something happens and they reach there's a tipping point and then there's no turning back. It's all Downhill from there. The question is how steep the slide is after that. It happened in Joe Biden's first term after the withdrawal from Afghanistan. His poll never recovered after that. There were other factors, but that began the dissent. And it happened certainly after Hurricane Katrina for George W. Bush. It's a very common phenomenon. And it has been the case that Donald Trump's polling, which is the polling really for the Republican Party, and they move in lockstep. Right. And that's what the midterms are really going to be about, is really an up or down vote on Donald Trump for a lot of Republicans. His poll numbers have been in decline since the first week. His polling average, it has occasionally plateaued, but it has never gone up. He's not had a bump or a beep a week where he's gone up. It's been down a lot, and then down and then flat, and then down and then flat. And this war, for obvious reasons, some of which have to do with people's fear about getting involved in a protracted forever war like he promised we wouldn't do, some of which have to do just with gas prices, some of which has to do with Jeffrey Epstein, some of which has to do with the fact that what the congresswoman is talking about, which is that people in the country who decide midterm elections have decided that this Republican Party and this speaker are not doing the people's business. But this is a slide that augurs very poorly for the Republican Party in November. Increasingly, there's a view in Republican and Democrats circles alike that not only is the House gone for Republicans, but that not only is the Senate in play, but you could make an argument the Democrats may now be a slight favorite favorite to take the Senate, which was something that no one thought was possible
- [28:55]
Nicole (Main Host)
given the map a month ago, two
- [28:57]
Political Analyst
months ago, certainly six months ago.
- [28:58]
Rick Stengel
Right.
- [28:59]
Political Analyst
It was like you had to really figure out a lot of. A lot of bank shots to make that happen. And there's a pretty decent, you know, you think about the dynamics here. We were talking before about the potential catastrophe, the ways in which the world would change, the price of oil, how supply chains work. We haven't even started to feel a lot of the economic pain from what's already happened on the ground in Iran. This picture is not going to get brighter. And we may have just reached the point with Donald Trump where he's nothing but a political albatross around the neck of the Republican Party. And that's part of the explanation for what you're seeing and why some people not just in the Tucker Carlson, Gretchen Kelly were not running for anything part of the world. But people like Ron. But people like Ron Johnson.
- [29:39]
Nicole (Main Host)
Yeah.
- [29:39]
Political Analyst
And yes, those people are also thinking about running for something down the line. But people like Ron Johnson and members of Congress. You saw a couple of Republicans come out today, right? And you know, not big name Republicans, but said I'm not in favor of destroying a whole civilization. That's all part of it is about self interest.
- [29:55]
Nicole (Main Host)
But it's so sick that it's news that a couple Republicans stuck their head up and said I'm not in favor of destroying a civilization. But yes, we'll take it as far as Congresswoman, thank you very much for taking some time to talk to us today. We're grateful to you.
- [30:10]
Congresswoman Chrissy Houlihan
Thank you. Thanks for having me again.
- [30:12]
Nicole (Main Host)
When we come back, how Donald Trump and J.D. vance are once again putting the United States squarely in the same corner is Vladimir Putin. We'll bring you that reporting next.
- [30:28]
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- [30:57]
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- [31:27]
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- [31:44]
Nicole (Main Host)
While Donald Trump seems intent on continuing to alarm and offend and upset our allies with his conduct, including grave and unprecedented threats against Iran to destroy their civilization. Vice President J.D. vance is in Hungary today campaigning for Viktor Orban, the country's authoritarian MAGA aligned, Putin aligned anti European Union leader JD Vance. Plunging into it. Axios is calling Europe's most volatile election in years a Hungarian campaign engulfed in spy scandals, sabotage and unprecedented peril. And while Russia aids Iran During Trump's war J.D. vance is putting the administration on the same side as Vladimir Putin on another issue by boosting Orban, who, as the New York Times reports, has put hostility toward Ukraine at the center of his campaign for real election. More from that report. Quote, in brief remarks before a meeting, Vance praised Orban as, quote, one of the only true statesman in Europe and said Trump, quote, loves you and so do I. I want to bring in former under secretary of state for public diplomacy and public affairs during the Obama administration. MSNBCnow political analyst Rick Stengel. John Hammond still here. So Wall Street Journal has reported that Russia is actively assisting Iran. How are they? And yesterday Trump sort of, you know, all pretenses are gone. Not that there were ever many said, well, on this NATO thing, Putin explained it to me. It's a paper tiger. And today JD Vance is with Putin's pal in Hungary, Viktor Orban.
- [33:23]
Rick Stengel
Yes, and there have been a couple of stories about the link between Orban and Putin. A phone call, they had a phone call between the Hungarian foreign minister and the Russian foreign minister. But you know, as an old magazine editor, what I wish is that every story about Hungary would have a little box and in the box would say Hungary is the poorest country in the eu. Hungary is the most corrupt country in the eu. Hungary is a country the size of Pennsylvania, but it's four times as poor as Pennsylvania. Italy is 10 times richer than Hungary. Hungary is an example of failure. It's an example of what politicians, what foreign policy experts call state capture. Basically, it's not that they're corrupt and violate the law. It's they're corrupt and they change the law to benefit the corruption in themselves. Orban's son in law is the richest man in Hungary because he gets every contract which should be familiar to our president who enriches his own son in law. So Hungary, I'm just amazed that conservatives buy into this idea that Hungary is an example of anything but the opposite of what we should be doing.
- [34:32]
Nicole (Main Host)
Well, I mean, you make a perfect point about the need for a magazine editor and writing television copy because I think people, well, I don't know, I won't call anyone uninformed or stupid, but I think people may be uninformed and stupid in their full embrace of Viktor Orban because that is precisely where another one of Trump's big political vulnerabilities are. Ann Coulter came out and just blasted what I think the, the biggest part of the Trump story that doesn't get enough attention because he's constantly striking matches and throwing them into other countries, allies and adversaries alike. But the corruption, maybe that's what they're modeling.
- [35:13]
Rick Stengel
Well, they're modeling the corruption. They're modeling state capture, which is that you can create this for yourself, but they're modeling something else which is even more venal, which is that it's a homogeneous white Christian nation that's older, that's losing its population again, all the things that we should not be. And by the way, remember, it was, and we talked about this before. I remember when I interviewed Vladimir Putin, he talked about Russia being the last white Christian nation. That's why he sees Hungary as their little brother, their little white Christian brother. And that is what they're modeling also, which is also really so antithetical to everything in America.
- [35:50]
Nicole (Main Host)
What about an American vice president who was left out of the room for a meeting, as the New York Times reports today, where his boss decides to follow Bibi Netanyahu into war with Iran, just sort of yucking it up as a political boost to Orban? I mean, the optics for JD Vance are not great either.
- [36:10]
Rick Stengel
They're not. Although, of course, in that same story that you guys were talking about, I mean, J.D. vance was the one person who almost stood up to say, Look, Mr. President, this isn't a good idea.
- [36:18]
Nicole (Main Host)
It's not clear why, though, because he makes the point that the political coalition would fall apart, which, by the way,
- [36:26]
Rick Stengel
at this point, I don't care what the reason why is. The fact that someone would do it and someone would say even that. I mean, maybe he's saying that because it's calculated to influence the boss. But, yeah, the fact that he's there, it's sort of humiliating for him while this is all going on and it's just, it's kind of a ridiculous sideshow.
- [36:46]
Nicole (Main Host)
I want to bring Heilman in on this. I have to sneak in a quick break. I'll be right back. On the other side,
- [36:56]
Guest Commentator
A man you can bait with a tweet is not a man we can trust with nuclear weapons. I can't put it, I can't put it any better than Jackie Kennedy did after, after the Cuban Missile crisis. She said that what worried President Kennedy during that very dangerous time was that a war might be started not by big men with self control and restraint, but by little men, the ones moved by fear and pride.
- [37:43]
Nicole (Main Host)
I mean, everything everyone has said comes down to that last point she makes, that we're all now waiting to see if Trump's pride permits him from taking Off Ramp reported earlier in the hour that Pakistanis have an idea for a two week pause that is right now civilization's best chance for avoiding Trump's pledge to destroy and annihilate the Iranian civilization.
- [38:09]
Political Analyst
Yeah, I mean, it's impossible to predict with him. Right. On some level, obviously nobody wants there to be a civilization ending bombing campaign starting tonight. So that's to be hope for. But you do wonder at which point you can, is the taco too far? I mean, at some point Trump, you imagine, would think, if I taco again, I'm going to lose all credibility. No one's ever going to take me seriously if you come out and promise Trump doesn't care about that civilization. Well, that's, I mean, I hope so. I hope he doesn't care about that. I mean, I want to be clear what I would prefer. But you wonder whether that's in his head, whether he's trying to find, well, we're going to do some kind of a big ish bombing campaign to hit certain military targets that are in the, in the electrical grid. And they're trying to figure out some way we can do something that doesn't make it look like he's completely tacoed, but not obviously go all the way towards Armageddon. I don't know, but I don't know. And the incredible thing about the reporting from today is that nobody seems to know. It's not like there's, like there's a there. At various times we've had a pretty good premonition on where Trump would go because people around him would be sort of like, don't worry, he's going to back off this, he's going to back off that. As we sit here at this hour, 5:47pm on the east, it's like, I don't know the people, well, wired Republicans, people, sources in the White House, other people, no one seems to really know where his head's at. And that's what kind of makes that thing we were talking about earlier, the sense of being on the precipice feel more scary in a way that I, I don't generally get scared. This is just a very uncertain, uncertain moment.
- [39:47]
Rick Stengel
But I hate the fact that we're even talking about it like that, like it's a game show, like there's a big reveal at 8 o'. Clock. I mean, this is the sort of thing that part of the rationale for what he's doing is to get people to buy into this, like the ticking time clock of like on 60 Minutes. And so, no, he would love for
- [40:06]
Nicole (Main Host)
there to be like a countdown clock for all the networks to go up with special coverage at 8 to see what has he decided? Yes, that's what he wants.
- [40:13]
Brigadier General Steve Anderson
Yes. Yes.
- [40:13]
Nicole (Main Host)
But I think, you know, I've said this this week. What day is it? It's Tuesday. I said this yesterday. I mean, I wrestle every day with how much of his bullshit to quote Margaret Rubio to platform, because it is, to him, a game.
- [40:27]
Rick Stengel
Yes.
- [40:27]
Nicole (Main Host)
But I guess in this instance, others might argue that there are lives on the line, in this case, innocent civilians in Iran.
- [40:34]
Rick Stengel
Yes. And I think the responsible thing is to actually cover it, like you're doing, because the. The downside is so immense. I mean, he's not like, threatening a small thing. He's threatening to end one of the oldest civilizations on the planet. And even if it's kind of braggadocio and he's sort of doubling down, it would be irresponsible to just completely ignore it as much as I would like to.
- [40:58]
Political Analyst
Well, and it brings you back to that Timothy Snyder thing you were quoting earlier today, which is that a President of the United States, whether he's doing it in game show fashion or not, and whether the time clock is real or whatever, President of the United States going out and threatening genocide is a thing that you can't put that genie back in the bottle. And you would have thought that Republicans would know this more than anybody. It's like the people who spoke most passionately and movingly in all of our careers about American exceptionalism, Shining city on the hill, America not being like other nations were people who had traditionally been Republicans, they would speak in those terms. And to hear a president who. These are the words that you would imagine, you know, from Pol Pot, you know, but not Pol Pot or Chairman Mao or Stalin or Hitler, you know, the president of the United States is out threatening to commit genocide. There's just no way. I totally agree with you. You feel like you're a sucker to get drawn into Trump's game. And yet this is a thing that everyone around the world, who already, many people thought it was crazy that we elected Trump toys to begin with, are now like, you know, okay, you guys really are not the world's exceptional, unique nation anymore. If you're in that place.
- [42:16]
Rick Stengel
And in the 250th year, our anniversary, where we created something that was meant to be a model for all mankind, with decent respect for the opinion of mankind, Donald Trump threatens genocide, which is in some ways the end of the 250 years republic.
- [42:32]
Nicole (Main Host)
Let me ask you a question about, because we also have such a sort of self absorbed lens on this. What does it say to you that the Iranian people are right now creating human shields and human chains around their own infrastructure?
- [42:45]
Rick Stengel
I mean, part of what it does is it shows Americans that Americans never think that anybody has nationalism like we do, like these are people who love their country. He's doing somewhat Trump has done is he's undermined the original rationale for what he was doing just to help the Iranian people overthrow them. As John said earlier, you know, bombing campaigns solidify support for the regime. It increases the power of right wing people. But it's also these are people who deeply believe in Persian civilization that have great pride in their civilization. And they have this maniac threatening their civilization and they're doing something that they're standing up for their own people. I mean, Trump, talk about how impossible it is to create a regime that people used to wonder about. Is Iran rational? Iran looks so flipping rational compared to, compared to the United States.
- [43:38]
Political Analyst
You almost got one in Iran.
- [43:39]
Nicole (Main Host)
Rick Stangle, Trump did it. Trump did it on Easter Sunday. Get it out of you next time. Rick Stengel. John Halman, thank you for being here for this. When we come back, what led to the release of an American journalist held captive in Iraq? New details after a short break. We'll leave you with a bright spot. Today, the American journalists abducted in Iraq by an Iranian allied militia was freed. That's according to the militia and to Iraqi security officials. Shelley Kittleson, a freelance journalist who's been reporting on the Middle east for more than a decade, was held captive for a week, prompting a manhunt for her kidnappers led by Iraqi security forces. As the US Worked on negotiating her release. The militia group warned in a statement that, quote, this initiative will not be repeated in the future and said she must leave Iraq immediately. The State Department has not yet released a statement. We'll continue to monitor that. One more break. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes tonight. We are grateful.
- [44:48]
M
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- [45:09]
Brigadier General Steve Anderson
Is it in you?
- [45:10]
M
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