"And so she did"

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Deadline: White House

Episode: "And so she did"
Date: November 13, 2025
Host: Nicolle Wallace
Guests: Haley Robson (Epstein survivor), Rick Stengel (MSNBC political analyst), Jackie Alemany (MSNBC reporter), Liz Oyer (Former DOJ pardon attorney)

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Episode Overview

This urgent episode of Deadline: White House covers the dramatic and long-anticipated release of key Jeffrey Epstein files to Congress, the bipartisan effort required to trigger this historic move, and the implications for Donald Trump and other high-powered figures. Nicolle Wallace leads a candid, emotionally charged discussion with Epstein survivor Haley Robson, legal and political analysts, and former DOJ officials. The episode also features a significant exclusive: Jackie Alemany’s interview with Jack Schlossberg, JFK’s grandson, as he announces a congressional run.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The 218th Signature to Release the Epstein Files

• Arizona Congresswoman Adelita Grijalva’s swearing-in provides the crucial 218th vote for the discharge petition, unlocking the Epstein files. (01:34)
• House Democrats released new emails showing Donald Trump allegedly knew more about Epstein's abuses than previously acknowledged.
• Transparency and accountability are repeatedly called for as essential to public trust.

2. Revelations from the Newly Released Epstein Emails

• 2011 Email: Epstein claims Trump "spent hours at my house with one of his victims." (02:06)
• 2019 Email: Epstein tells Michael Wolff, "Donald Trump knew about the girls." (02:32)
• Nicolle Wallace clearly states MSNBC has not independently confirmed these allegations and that no charges against Trump are substantiated by this evidence, but the emails raise questions about his knowledge. (02:48-03:52)
• Trump dismisses the matter as a "hoax" in a social media post, unsuccessful in quelling bipartisan Congressional interest.

3. Pressure, Intimidation, and the Fight for Survivor Justice

• Haley Robson, Epstein survivor, joins to discuss the emotional journey from victimhood to advocacy.
• She describes widespread intimidation among politicians and survivors that has stymied release of the files and calls for more “good men, more Republicans” to join the transparency fight. (08:06)
• Robson explains the healing journey and the power of survivor solidarity: “If we can stand up for our child self, then we would love to have more adults take that initiative and come forward regardless of what the consequences may be. Right is right at the end of the day, and we want to do what’s right.” (11:10)

4. Why Survivors Demand Transparency

• Survivors and advocates emphasize public need to see photos and videos in FBI custody to “judge the people on those videos...who they want in power or political office.” (05:37)
• “We could not face our abuser when we were 13, 14, 15, and 16 years old. We were incapable at that time...We are now grown women that are coming together to fight for those children.” — Haley Robson (09:16)

5. Bipartisan Momentum—and Political Risks

• Jackie Alemany notes this is “absolutely the most unifying thing that this Congress has handled,” with mass public and even Republican support behind transparency. (24:29)
• QAnon, sex trafficking politics, and Trump: Issues once fringe now have mainstream influence, complicating the GOP coalition.

6. Ghislaine Maxwell, Prison Treatment & Potential Trump Commutation

• Maxwell is reportedly seeking a commutation from Trump, having recently been transferred to a minimum security prison with “concierge-style” privileges following an unusual 9-hour interview with Trump’s Deputy Attorney General—who is also Trump’s former personal attorney. (33:02)
• Liz Oyer, former pardon attorney: "There is simply no president in history that would have ever considered granting a commutation to a convicted sexual abuser of children." (33:02)
• DOJ handling of Maxwell’s case critiqued as a “charade” meant to manage—not uncover—the truth.

7. Survivor Empowerment & Solidarity

• Robson describes the critical healing that occurred when survivors, many meeting for the first time, gathered at the Capitol to advocate for the discharge petition: “When I went to the Capitol, I went as one girl. And when I left, I came back a completely changed woman.” (14:44)
• Survivors are resolute and united: “You cannot get rid of us. We are not going away.” (15:09)

8. Media Responsibility and Public Advocacy

• Robson urges press and public: “Don’t let us fade out. Don’t let the world forget about what happened…The main purpose is not just for the victims of Jeffrey Epstein. It’s for all women and children.” (17:44)

9. Jack Schlossberg—JFK’s Grandson—Announces Congressional Run

• In an exclusive interview, Schlossberg contextualizes Trump-era dangers to American institutions:
  “The president is using not just the bully pulpit but also the actual levers of power, his Department of Justice, to silence his critics, to exact revenge...” (38:20)
• On fighting today’s media landscape: “New media is completely polluted and the air is dirty. But I have figured out a way to breathe in that environment.” (39:07)
• He refuses to label Trump a “fascist,” arguing the threat is unprecedented and requires novel political resistance.

10. Further Breaking Political News

• John Brennan, former CIA director, has reportedly received a subpoena related to investigations into Russian interference in the 2016 election—signaling ongoing high-profile legal and political battles. (43:56)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Political Courage & Intimidation:

  “There are a lot of politicians and senators…that it has become a situation where...the bad guys are silencing the good guys…”
  — Haley Robson (08:06)

• On the Unifying Force of the Epstein Files:

  “This is absolutely the most unifying thing this Congress has handled…within the Republican Party.”
  — Jackie Alemany (24:29)

• On the Scale of the Coverup:

  “I think the fallout has to be extremely massive on an astronomical level for the amount of resistance that we’re getting.”
  — Haley Robson (12:59)

• On DOJ’s Handling of Maxwell:

  “There is simply no reason to believe that she would tell the truth. This was a charade...intended to mislead the American people at best.”
  — Liz Oyer on Ghislaine Maxwell interview and DOJ involvement (35:49)

• On Survivor Healing:

  “When I went to the Capitol, I went as one girl. And when I left the Capitol, I came back a completely changed woman.”
  — Haley Robson (14:44)

• On Media’s Role:

  “Don’t let us fade out. Don’t let the world forget about what happened to us.”
  — Haley Robson (17:44)

• On the Nonpartisan Nature of the Issue:

  “This isn’t a political matter, this is a human matter.”
  — Rick Stengel (22:39)

• On Trump & Maxwell:

  “It’s extraordinary that Donald Trump has not ruled out the possibility of granting Ghislaine Maxwell a commutation of sentence…No president in history would have ever considered granting a commutation to a convicted sexual abuser of children.”
  — Liz Oyer (33:02)

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Segment Timestamps

• Epstein Files and Trump Allegations: 01:04–03:52
• FBI Director Exchange Recap: 03:52–04:52
• Survivor Attorney: What’s Still Hidden: 05:20–05:56
• Haley Robson Interview (Survivor Perspective): 06:21–17:44
• Panel Reacts (Rick & Jackie): 22:05–27:45
• Maxwell’s Prison Treatment and Commutation Discussion: 33:02–37:07
• Jack Schlossberg Interview (JFK’s Grandson): 37:59–43:13
• Breaking: John Brennan Subpoena: 43:54–45:25

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Tone and Style Notes

• The episode is urgent, direct, empathetic, and determined.
• Survivors’ voices are centered and treated with dignity.
• Political commentary is incisive but maintains a focus on human cost and ethical imperatives.

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Summary Takeaway

This episode is a landmark in the public reckoning with Jeffrey Epstein’s legacy, survivor empowerment, and bipartisan accountability. Nicolle Wallace and guests cut through political spin, emphasize the need for transparency over partisanship, and highlight the moral obligation to support victims and expose the truth. The addition of Jack Schlossberg’s candid, generational perspective rounds out a broadcast focused on both immediate justice and the long-term necessity of principled leadership.

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Transcript

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[Nicole Wallace]

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[Attorney for Survivors]

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[Nicole Wallace]

Just this morning, House Democrats released more emails showing that Trump knew more about Epstein's abuses than he previously acknowledged. It's past time for Congress to restore its role as a check imbalance on this administration and fight for we the.

[Haley Robson]

American people, because that's what the American.

[Liz Oyer]

People expect us to do.

[Haley Robson]

Fight for them.

[Nicole Wallace]

That is why I will sign the discharge petition right now to release the Epstein files. Hi again everybody. It's five o' clock in New York. Here we go. And so she did moments ago. That was the official swearing in of Arizona Congresswoman Adelita Grijalava, a long awaited development that provides a bipartisan coalition of lawmakers exactly what it needed. One more vote, one more signature. The all important 218th signature for that discharge petition related to the Epstein files. And that's not it. Because this morning, as we've been reporting, Democrats on the House Oversight Committee released to the public a number of emails to and from Jeffrey Epstein provided to the Oversight Committee as a result of a subpoena. In one of those emails from the year 2011, the convicted and deceased, now deceased sex offender writes that Donald Trump described as a, quote, dog that hasn't barked, quote, spent hours at my house, end quote, with one of his victims. In Another email from 2019, during Donald Trump's presidency, Jeffrey Epstein told author Michael Wolff that Donald Trump, quote, knew about the girls, end quote. We're going to level set here. Though it is unknown right now what exactly Epstein was talking about in those Written emails. MSNBC has not independently confirmed the allegations that he makes. In a social media post, Donald Trump suggested the, quote, jeffrey Epstein hoax is just an effort to deflect on behalf of the Democrats from what we're not totally clear. And to be clear, what was true yesterday is still true today. There is not any evidence that Trump engaged in criminal activity associated with Jeffrey Epstein's sex trafficking operation. These emails released by House Democrats and the trove of documents subsequently published by the Republicans, at the very least serve to call into question what Donald Trump knew and when he knew it related to a years long scandalous from which he's repeatedly sought to distance himself. Remember the exchange back in September between FBI Director Kash Patel and Congressman Eric Swalwell?

[Rick Stengel]

Did you ever tell the Attorney General that Donald Trump's name is in the Epstein files?

[Nicole Wallace]

The Attorney General and I have had.

[Commercial Announcer]

Numerous discussions about the entirety of the.

[Haley Robson]

Epstein files and the reviews conducted by our team. Did you tell the Attorney General that.

[Rick Stengel]

Donald Trump's name is in the Epstein files?

[Haley Robson]

And we have released where President Trump. Did you tell the Attorney General that.

[Rick Stengel]

The President's name is in the Epstein files?

[Haley Robson]

During many conversations that the Attorney General.

[Commercial Announcer]

And I have had on the matter.

[Nicole Wallace]

Of Epstein, we have reviewed.

[Rick Stengel]

The question is simple. Who did you tell the Attorney General that Donald Trump's name is in the Epstein files? Yes or no?

[Nicole Wallace]

Why don't you try spelling it out?

[Rick Stengel]

Yes or no?

[Commercial Announcer]

Use the Alphabet.

[Rick Stengel]

Yes or no?

[Nicole Wallace]

No.

[Commercial Announcer]

ABC Director, it sounds like you don't.

[Rick Stengel]

Want to tell us. Did you tell the Attorney General that Donald Trump's name was in the Epstein files?

[Haley Robson]

Why don't you try serving your constituency by focusing on reducing violent crime in this country and the number of pedophiles that are legally harbored in sanctuary cities in California.

[Nicole Wallace]

So whatever today means or leads to or doesn't mean or doesn't lead to for Donald Trump, the focus now returns to where it should always remain, to the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell's nightmarish and horrific criminality. Earlier, an attorney for some of those survivors spoke to MSNBC about what he would like to see happen next.

[Attorney for Survivors]

There's been a lot over the last almost 20 years now that I've been unable to disclose. And the FBI has a wealth of information that they're sitting on. You know, a picture paints a thousand words. We've started to see emails, but what we have been demanding be released by.

[Rick Stengel]

The FBI have been the photographs that.

[Attorney for Survivors]

Were kept in a safe at Epstein's home. These are photographs of compromising material on individuals that Epstein wanted to have material on. In addition to that, he had videotapes. He had surveillance videos in all of his homes in Palm beach, where I am also in his Manhattan home, as.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well as on his island.

[Attorney for Survivors]

And the FBI is in the custody of all of those videotapes. And I think that if ultimately this discharge petition is signed, which it should be, then the American public can judge the people on those videos and in those photographs for themselves and make determinations about who they want in power or political office or corporate heads or whoever it may be.

[Nicole Wallace]

That's where we begin the hour. Joining our conversation is Haley Robson. She is an Epstein survivor who spent two years in Jeffrey Epstein's orbit after she met him when she was just 16 years old, a high school student in West Palm Beach, Florida. With me at the table for the hour, MSNBC Washington reporter, the co host of the weekend, Jackie Alemany is here and former under Secretary of State for Public Diplomacy and Public affairs during the Obama administration. MSNBC political analyst Rick Stengel is here. Haley, thank you for being here. Thank you for using your voice and for talking to us.

[Haley Robson]

Thank you for having me.

[Nicole Wallace]

I took live and then again your comments at the Capitol and I wonder your thoughts today. I just wanted to hear your reaction to today's developments and the disclosure of some emails from Jeffrey Epstein's estate.

[Haley Robson]

I mean, I think it goes back to this being a perfect example of why it's so imperative that the Epstein files are released to the public. I think the public has a right to know what's going on. I think, you know, we deserve a lot more clarity. And I think as we develop this further along and more of the emails and more of the documents and more of the Epstein files are released, we are going to see a much clearer image of the abuse that took place and that continued after Jeffrey passed away.

[Nicole Wallace]

Why do you think people who were for transparency, who went on podcasts and TV shows and called for the release of the videos and of the files and of the photos now are not.

[Haley Robson]

So, as we see, there's been a little. There's been a little change with this administration. Right. I think that's very oblivious. But, you know, I have to say one of the things I learned about in my abuse is the intimidation. And I do feel there are a lot of politicians and senators, Republicans, Democrats, both sides. I think that it has become a situation where, again, the bad guys are silencing the good guys, which is making it horrible and just impossible to Defend the women in this. And we need more good men and more, more Republicans to keep signing on to this transparency act to get this discharge bill passed. You know, the more the merrier. But I definitely think there's a lot of intimidation going on behind the scenes and I think there are a lot of things that we're not seeing in the public eye and it's a shame that it's come down to that.

[Nicole Wallace]

What is your message to anyone being actively threatened or intimidated today to change their vote for transparency or for the discharge petition?

[Haley Robson]

Something that I'm going to leave everyone with is we could not face our abuser when we were 13, 14, 15 and 16 years old. We were incapable at that time, which is why we had lawyers come and fight for us because we weren't being heard, we weren't being believed. And yes, we were being heavily intimidated as a child, we were being intimidated. We are now grown women that are coming together to fight for those children. And so I would just like to see everybody come together and realize you're coming together for children, not our adult selves. And I would just really like to see more people understanding what human trafficking is as a whole. And honestly, I'm excited to see in the future where this is going to lead and hopefully we'll smooth sailing. Less bumps in the road now that we have our 218 signature to. Thanks for Adelita Grijalva for pledging to us. That's an incredible thing to watch and very inspiring.

[Nicole Wallace]

How do you, how did you heal your 14 year old self to a point where you could be on live TV talking about her?

[Haley Robson]

I think my 16 year old self was silenced and threatened and it was very, very hard in those 17 years when you are silenced because the shame and the feelings of it never goes away. And Somehow within those 17 years of being exhausted and being silenced and scared, I realized I had nothing left to be scared of. And I just, I don't. Somehow I found the courage to speak out and want to be present in this fight and want to be supporting not just the victims of Jeffrey Epstein, but women across the world and children across the world that are enduring trafficking or sexual abuse or exploitation. And I just want to be a part of a solution. And I think it's incredible that if all of the survivors that are stepping forward are cheering on our younger selves, there's no reason why the adults should allow threats to come in between for what is right and what is wrong. If we can stand up for our child self, then we would love to have more adults take that initiative and come forward regardless of what the consequences may be. Right is right at the end of the day, and we want to do what's right. And we want more people in the political world to drop the agendas and choose a side and to be on the side that is right. And there are power in numbers. And when you stand together, there is a powerful message to be heard. And we can only do this with the numbers that we have. And we want to continue to grow that support.

[Nicole Wallace]

When you see the most powerful people in the UK stripping the royal titles from men who were involved, and you.

[Haley Robson]

See.

[Nicole Wallace]

The White House, the most powerful political figure in our system of government, calling you and other victims part of a, quote, hoax, and you see people who talked about turning over gigabytes of tape suddenly reverse course and not answer direct questions. How big do you think the conspiracy or how big do you think the fallout is if they're doing all those things to hide it?

[Haley Robson]

I think the fallout has to be extremely massive on an astronomical level for the amount of resistance that we're getting. I mean, I think that is something that the world is seeing happen. And I think a lot of people are starting to open their eyes. When you go to these great lengths to hide the truth and to shelter, to shelter files that prove criminal activity against children and minors, it's astounding. It has to be astronomical at this point. And this again is why it's so imperative and so important to get these Epstein files and rip the band aid off and let us have it. The sooner we all can discover the truth and get to more clarity, the more we can move on. And I think at this point, everyone is ready to move on. But in order to do so, we need the government to work with us, not against us, and to be transparent as promised by majority of these individuals. When we went to the Capitol back in September, and that's really hurtful to see some of them flip flop.

[Nicole Wallace]

When you went to the Capitol, did you know a lot of the other victims? I mean, what. Because it seems like part of their ability to brush this under the rug was to keep all of you from connecting and becoming part of this movement. Because the public supports transparency, the public believes all of you. How have you, how have your efforts at transparency changed since that day when you were all at the Capitol?

[Haley Robson]

I mean, I've said this before. When I went to the Capitol, I went as one girl. And when I left the Capitol, I came back a completely changed woman. It was an unforgettable experience, I think, for not just myself, but I think for the other girls. There was so much healing behind the scenes when we went to the Capitol. I mean, I have to be honest. I personally only knew very, very few of the other victims, maybe two of them. I did not know the girls from New York. I did not know their stories. I did not know the girls from New Mexico. It's incredible when you get a group of women that are sharing, unfortunately, the same abuse or have something that serious and that deep to connect on. I am learning things about these women, and I'm becoming stronger just through listening to their stories. They are the most inspiring women that come from all walks of life, and I'm blessed to know them. I'm blessed to call them my survival Survivor sisters. And we will not stop. You cannot get rid of us. We are not going away. We want transparency, and we've earned it. We are, well, more deserving of it.

[Nicole Wallace]

I have a daughter and a son, and I can't imagine any politician's indifference to all of you. And I wonder how it feels that there are people that will be indifferent to your quest for transparency and answers.

[Haley Robson]

Yeah, that part right there is what really hurts the indifference. Because, again, it should not be a political issue. It is a human issue. And if you want to stand on the right side of things, it's a very common side that you should be standing on. There's no room in society for exploitation of children, women, or anyone. There is no room in society for pedophilia, for coverups. This is America. This is supposed to be land of the free. But I'm not freed yet. And I don't think the other girls that are involved as survivors and victims don't feel freed yet either. And that's the probably the most honest answer I can give you.

[Nicole Wallace]

Haley, I want to ask you one more question. What can we do? How do we cover this in a way that is not political, in a partisan way, but that is advocating for transparency and for your justice and your healing.

[Haley Robson]

Don't. Don't let us fade out. Don't let the world forget about what happened to us. Don't let the world forget what has occurred. And the main purpose is not just for the victims of Jeffrey Epstein. It's for all women and children. It's for everyone who has ever been exploited or abused sexually. If you want to cover in such a way I can't stress enough, reach out to the survivors. Reach out to our legal attorneys and representation. You know, call the representatives on both sides, call Congress. Leave messages, leave voicemails, leave emails, blow them up on the phone. You know, get those lines going. Demand for transparency. I called Nancy Mace today. I called Thomas Massie, I called Marjorie Taylor Greene. I called the four Republicans that signed the discharge paper just to touch base with them, just to reach out and say, hey, thank you. It's important that we don't let this conversation die. And it's important that we keep advocating and talking with the girls and the survivors.

[Nicole Wallace]

Haley, you have an open invitation to be here, and I will take this with me. Don't let us fade away. Thank you so much for your courage. I cannot imagine what it is to take the darkest moment in my life and then talk about it on tv. I'm so moved by you and I'm so humbled by your courage and I'm grateful to you for all your time today.

[Haley Robson]

Thank you so much for inviting me on. Thank you.

[Nicole Wallace]

I appreciate it. Thank you. We're going to take a break. We'll pull Jackie and Rick into our coverage on the other side. Don't go anywhere. Also ahead, these newly released emails give us a lot more to go on, a lot more context and understanding to some of the news we've reported about Ghislaine Maxwell's time in Akushi prison camp and her extraordinary treatment there, as well as the possibility that she'll ask Donald Trump for a commutation, how she's preparing to do that. Former DOJ pardon attorney Liz Oyer will join our conversation to take us inside what that process likely looks like. On the Also ahead, we'll play some of our friend and colleague Jackie Alemani's very newsy interview with the grandson of John F. Kennedy, Jack Schlossberg, who now says he's ready to follow in the footsteps of so many members of his famous family. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

[Haley Robson]

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[Nicole Wallace]

Sriracha sounds pretty spicy to me.

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Um, a little spicy, but also tangy and sweet.

[Haley Robson]

Maybe it's time to turn up the heat.

[Nicole Wallace]

Or turn it down.

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[Nicole Wallace]

Spicy but not too spicy.

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[Haley Robson]

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[Nicole Wallace]

Rick Singel it is There are stories we cover and we try to do it as human beings, but there are stories that are just incomprehensible to me and Epstein and Maxwell's monstrosity is one of those things for me and then to have the survivors able to come out and talk about it for 20 minutes just blows my mind. But I think it speaks to people about how non political or post politic or whatever our words are. Talking to the survivors makes me think that someday we will see everything. What do you think?

[Rick Stengel]

Well, she Hailey said, she said this isn't a political matter, this is a human matter. And I have to say I think we were all watching it. It was incredibly moving and inspiring to see her talk. I mean, it's not often that you see acts of courage and bravery right in front of you and in this case right on television and that she was obviously doing something that was painful for her. It was also moving for her to talk about the sort of camaraderie with the other young women, many of whom she hadn't known. And to your point, that story is not going away. They're not going away. Her benediction to you to not let it fade away is not going to happen in part because it does resonate with people because it's a human issue, not a political issue. And you know, we're not talking about the shutdown. We're not talking about tariffs. Those things are abstract to people. This is very real and it is nonpartisan in the sense that, you know, human trafficking is not something that is a partisan issue. It's something that people are revulsed by everywhere. So I don't think it's going away. There is a huge amount of evidence and data that we haven't seen. Even just the emails that were released today part of 40,000 emails. There's just enormous amount. And this will just keep on happening.

[Nicole Wallace]

You know, we're almost numb to the rancor on Capitol Hill. Right? I mean, you were on the show every day covering the January 6th select committee. And the reason it was such a huge story is because it was a bipartisan effort to hold Donald Trump accountable. Don't need to tell anyone here that those two Republicans have been purged from the party and are now on the list for retribution. This is the first bipartisan thing that I think we've covered since the January 6th select committee, with Massie taking a real leadership role toward transparency. How did that happen?

[Jackie Alemany]

Well, this is absolutely the most unifying thing that this Congress has handled and also the most unifying thing within the Republican Party. You know, polling hasn't been conducted since the summertime, since before Donald Trump's illustration in Jeffrey Epstein's birthday book came out, since these emails have come out. And even polling then showed that 40% of Republicans approved of Trump's handling of the release of files. But more than a third of them, 36%, disapproved. Again, the most intraparty discontent that Trump has faced. And as you said yourself, Nicole, the only thing more popular than Trump is this. And people like Thomas Massie, Marjorie Taylor Greene, these were a wave of candidates that actually came into Congress with the help of the QAnon movement, which co opted the sex trafficking movement. This was a part of, of the sort of origin story of QAnon that used a hashtag on the Internet when it started in the early 27, 2015, 2016, 2017.

[Nicole Wallace]

Pizzagate.

[Jackie Alemany]

Right, exactly. And so sex trafficking is a huge. It's a huge galvanizing force and issue for QAnon adherents and for these QAnon friendly lawmakers who were elected into Congress in part with the support of people who came out from, you know, under the rug, decided to vote for, become politically involved, really for the first time, and vote for some of these candidates. So this is, as Vaughn very smartly noted, this is an issue of the Republican Party's own making that Trump is now contending with. And this is what happens when you have such a big tent and push out a lot of these more moderate conservatives and that you have to start bringing in these fringe elements. Why the party's now entertaining people like Nick Fuentes, very openly anti Semitic online influencer who is now being brought into the mainstream. And why something like this, something that was originally completely fringe and was co opted by people who actually have faced real life, sex trafficking and have been caught up in Jeffrey Epstein's huge web. This is why it's so sticky and so politically potent.

[Nicole Wallace]

What do you think happens in the end?

[Rick Stengel]

Boy, that's a big question. Speaking of stickiness, there's this sort of stickiness theory of presidential scandal that scandals stick when it seems like, yes, that guy would do that. Like Whitewater and Clinton never stuck because he didn't even own his own house. So he wasn't kind of stealing real estate. We'd go all the way back to the checkers scandal with Richard Nixon. But this as a scandal, and of course it's more because there may be illegality does dovetail with what people know and think about Donald Trump.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, that's what Heilman said. All the creepy things he said about him.

[Rick Stengel]

Yes. I mean the idea that he calls it a hoax and all day long people can watch on television, them leering at girls at parties and things, it's like, well, gee, it's not a hoax. So I think it has legs and it should. And it is the sort of thing that could undermine the basis of his presidency.

[Nicole Wallace]

All right, much more ahead when we come back with the release of the emails today might tell us about the extraordinary treatment Glenn Maxwell is getting in a minimum security prison in federal custody. We'll be right back with that.

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[Nicole Wallace]

The release of Epstein's written by and sent by Jeffrey Epstein alleging that Donald Trump knew of his conduct sheds new light not just on Donald Trump and the Trump administration's handling of the Epstein files in the Epstein case, but also on the news. We started the week covering that Jeffrey Epstein's closest associate, Ghislaine Maxwell, is planning to ask Donald Trump for a commutation of her 20 year prison sentence for child sex trafficking. As we've been covering. Here is what we learned Maxwell knows about Donald Trump. Today in a 2011 email, Jeffrey Epstein wrote to Maxwell this quote, I want you to realize that the dog that hasn't barked yet is Trump. The victim who's redacted spent hours at my house with him. He has never once been mentioned, police chief, et cetera. I'm 75% there. To which Ghislaine Maxwell writes, quote, I have been thinking about that. Yet here is what Ghislaine Maxwell told Donald Trump's Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche, when he took the extraordinary step of traveling to interview her for nine hours a few months ago. I don't know Epstein's, if he had whatever the nature of the president's friendship, if you will, or however you want to define that with Epstein, I was never witnessed. I think they were friendly like people are in social settings. I don't think they were close friends or I certainly never witnessed the president in any of I don't recall ever seeing him in his house, for instance. I actually never saw the president in any type of massage setting. I never witnessed the president in any inappropriate setting in any way. The president was never inappropriate with anybody in the times that I was with him. He was a gentleman in all respects. When's the last time you think you saw in person President Trump? It's been a long time. Probably not sometime in the beginning, mid 2000s maybe. And it would only have been a social setting as far as I recall. Days later, days after that interview takes place, an interview that Chris Christie calls, quote, extraordinary, Maxwell was transferred to a minimum security prison. We learned this week. She is reportedly receiving, quote, concierge style treatment in prison. Now with the increasingly transactional nature of Donald Trump's pardons and commutations and his Justice Department already giving Maxwell preferential treatment. The question is, what could he get out of setting a convicted sex offender, child sex trafficker free? I want to bring in the former Department of Justice pardon attorney Liz Oyer. Jackie and Rick are still here. Liz, I was thinking about your departure from the Department of Justice over your refusal resistance to restoring the gun rights of Mel Gibson, who as far as we know didn't have anything on Donald Trump, potentially or otherwise. Nothing we know of regarding Mel Gibson's guns and Donald Trump. What it would seem that the sky's the limit, right. When you come to this power of commutations and pardons. And if there's any concern that anything she knows could help or hurt Donald Trump, what are your thoughts on this?

[Liz Oyer]

Well, it's extraordinary that Donald Trump has not ruled out the possibility of granting Ghislaine Maxwell a commutation of sentence. There is simply no president in history that would have ever considered granting a commutation to a convicted sexual abuser of children. This president, as recently as today, his White House spokesperson said that he hasn't ruled it out. He hasn't made any decisions. So that is extraordinary. And the really remarkable thing from a DOJ perspective is the role that Todd Blanch is playing in all of this. Todd Blanche is the number two official at the Justice Department, but he's also Trump's former personal attorney. And it seems very clear from what came out in these emails that Blanche is part of the COVID up. He is part of the crisis management plan plan on behalf of Donald Trump. He is continuing to serve in that role of Trump's fixer and personal attorney even while he's supposed to be serving the American people. One of the things that's extraordinary about the way the interview was conducted is that Blanche went down there himself in person and he didn't show Ghislaine Maxwell these emails. If he had wanted to get to the truth of what Trump knew or didn't know and what Glenn Maxwell Maxwell knows or doesn't know, he would have put that email that you just showed in front of her and said, what about this? He would have pushed her when she gave those answers that suggested that Trump had nothing to do with Epstein and no knowledge of his sexual exploits with children. But he didn't do any of that because he was not seeking the truth. He was trying to solve a problem for his boss, Donald Trump.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, let's go with the second theory that he was trying to solve problem for Donald Trump that he's still confused about whether he's the country's DAG or whether he's Donald Trump's defense attorney. It seems like he did a crappy job at that as well, because it's clear that Michael Wolf is talking about Jeffrey Epstein's ability to blackmail him. And he's not just, you know, some former TV star. He's the President of the United States. Let me read you this email from Michael Wolff to Jeffrey Epstein from December 16, 2015. Quote, I think you should let him hang himself. If he says he hasn't been on the plane or to the house, then that gives you a valuable PR and political currency. You can hang him in a way that potentially generates a positive benefit for you, or if it really looks like he could win, you could save him generating a debt. Of course, it is possible that when asked, he'll say, jeffrey's a great guy and has gotten a raw deal and is a victim of political correctness, which is to be outlawed in a Trump regime. I mean, Michael Wolf is outlining to Jeffrey Epstein exactly how to blackmail Donald Trump. And that doesn't seem to come up either with Ghislaine Maxwell.

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah, Todd Blanche didn't appear to ask her any hard questions. She understood the role that she was supposed to play, which is she's supposed to exonerate Donald Trump, and if she can maybe implicate some other people. She was not supposed to tell the truth. And Todd Blanche wasn't seeking the truth. He would have went, gone to that prison and asked her all of these questions that you're asking Nicole now and that many other people are asking. And he would have been prepared with email after email after email to confront her to try to determine whether she was telling the truth. There is simply no reason to believe that she's telling the truth. She's a person who's been convicted and sentenced to 20 years in prison. And now she. She is desperate to get out from under that sentence. And her credibility is just absolutely shot as a result of the position that she's in and as a result of the crimes that she committed. So there's no reason to believe that she would tell the truth. This was a charade that the deputy Attorney General performed going down there in the first place. It is a waste of taxpayer resources. It is intended to mislead the American people at best. And it's worth, really something that is beneath a public official of the stature of Todd Blanche. He is not a serious attorney for the American people. He is acting as Donald Trump's henchman.

[Nicole Wallace]

Lizzo, thank you for joining us today on this extraordinary news day. We are grateful. When we come back, we're going to talk to Jackie about her brand new interview with JFK's grandson, Jack Schlossberg, who has announced he is running for Congress in New York. Did that on the other side. Have a quick break. Don't go anywhere. Jack Schlossberg, the grandson of President John F. Kennedy, announced his campaign for Congress in New York's 12th district to replace outgoing Congressman Jerry Nadler. Schlossberg first came to national attention with his speech alongside his mother, Caroline Kennedy Schlossberg, at the 2020 DNC and has continued to stay in the public eye through a robust and very pithy social media campaign against the current administration. Our friend and colleague Jackie Alemany sat down with him exclusively to ask him about his run for Congress. Take a look.

[Jackie Alemany]

You're a lawyer. As you noted, Trump's retribution plan at the DOJ is one of the most dramatic things we've seen done to American institutions in modern history. How alarmed by you on this and from a service perspective, if you were elected to be a member of Congress, what would you do to ensure that something like this doesn't happen again?

[Attorney for Survivors]

Well, this brings us to the constitutional crisis that we're in. The president is using not just the bully pulpit, but also the actual levers of power, his Department of Justice to silence his critics, to exact revenge from universities, to punish law firms and anyone who's willing to stand up against him. And there's a lot that we can do at the federal level. One thing we can do is elect candidates who know how to communicate and fight back in this toxic political environment that we find ourselves in. New media is completely polluted and the air is dirty. But I have figured out a way to breathe in that environment. And we need to elect candidates who understand how to do that. And I think that's what make me an effective representative. But beyond that, Democrats need to win back the House because with control of the House, we have control of the Judiciary Committee. The Judiciary Committee has the power to subpoena and to investigate. And that's the only way that we're going to get real answers to the questions of what the president is doing and do something to stop him from doing it in the future.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, just his assessment, Jackie, of the political moment is so astute. And the fact that you sort of wage a campaign in the media climate you find yourself in, I love that line about, you know, it's polluted, but I can breathe there.

[Haley Robson]

Yeah.

[Jackie Alemany]

I mean, there's obviously a personal element to this fight as a Kennedy going up against HHS secretary, rfk, his cousin, and this battle over the Kennedy legacy and what being a Kennedy actually means here. But what Jack has done and what I gather through our conversation is sort of taking a step back and reframing this as it's not just about his family legacy, but the legacy of all the Americans and families over the decades and generations that have built this America that is now being ruined and destroyed by Donald Trump. And this is someone who's willing to lean into that family history and combine his savvy online media presence with political combat. And he understands those two things very. And he's ready to marry them together and try to use that to sell himself as what he says would be an effective lawmaker.

[Nicole Wallace]

What does his race look like?

[Jackie Alemany]

It's a little crowded. And, you know, it has one of the most coveted districts in America. I mean, who doesn't want to represent New York City with so much culture and arts and interesting people? But he is by far someone who has the highest name id. There's someone named Liam Elkind who's jumped into the race. He's a 26 year old nonprofit founder, Jerry Nadler, who is retiring after 34 years of being in office. His protege, who's a New York State assemblyman, has also jumped in. Nadler hasn't endorsed anyone himself yet. He said that probably won't come until down the line. But if Slasberg has any advantage here, it's probably a fundraising advantage. And again, the fact that he has already built this massive influential profile as a political outsider and is now going to try to marry that with wanting to run as an insider, I mean.

[Nicole Wallace]

He talks about the fight. Let me show you some of his critique of Donald Trump.

[Jackie Alemany]

Do you think Trump is a fascist?

[Attorney for Survivors]

I don't think that term is actually very helpful. I think Trump is Trump and MAGA is maga and it's a completely new movement and that they control a propaganda machine bigger than anything humanity has ever seen. He not only controls his own social media platform, which he uses to issue official White House communications, but he is in bed with the leaders of every other platform out there. Elon, Musk, Zuckerberg, all of them are working together to spread their. To promote their own agenda. And so fascism, I think, is a catchy term, or it feels good to call somebody something so extreme. But I think this is completely new and an unprecedented threat. And we need to respond to it with new creative ways of fighting back.

[Jackie Alemany]

So you don't see any historical analogs here?

[Attorney for Survivors]

Well, of course there are. I mean, the same strong men do the same thing over and over throughout history. But I think it's, it's a, you know, I think President Trump represents a threat unlike any other.

[Nicole Wallace]

Super, super specific. What do you think?

[Rick Stengel]

Very candid, very open. I've known his mom for decades and decade and there's always been more of a reticence on her side of the family than Bobby's side of the family of getting into politics. She got into politics late, became Obama's ambassador to Japan. She was just ambassador to Australia under Biden. I think they represent a kind of a pure strain of the family. His Uncle John, you know, also was reluctant to get into politics. I think would have. So I think it's a great tradition and I welcome him for getting into the race.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, there's a generational advantage too to like understanding all the tech platforms and understanding exactly how they dominate the political conversations.

[Jackie Alemany]

I mean, across social media he has nearly 2 million followers. But what was actually the most interesting about interviewing him is it wasn't the Ackuno guy that we saw show up to that interview. The quirky, controversial, eyebrow raising caricature that he sometimes presents himself as. The trolling character who has been able to break through because of that, but a more serious and thorough, thoughtful political candidate.

[Nicole Wallace]

It's a fantastic interview. I'm so excited to watch the whole thing. The full interview with Jack Schlossberg airs on the weekend, Saturday morning at 7am Jackie Alemany, it's so nice to have you here with us at MSNBC and here at the table with us as a show. Thank you. Always nice to have you here, my friend. What a day.

[Rick Stengel]

What a day. Nice to be here.

[Nicole Wallace]

You know how to pick him. When we come back, we have some breaking news to tell you about as the Justice Department pursues a key Obama administration senior national security official. We'll tell you about it next. Some news breaking in the last half hour. A source close to former director of the CIA John Brennan confirms that Director Brennan has received a subpoena in connection with the ongoing Florida grand jury investigation into probes by the CIA and FBI into Russian interference in the 2016 election. Another source familiar with the matter says all the subpoenas in this round requested documents related to the preparation of the 2016 intelligence assessment on Russian election interference. The inquiry and the new request for documents comes two years after a special counsel appointed by former AG Bill Barr concluded an exhaustive investigation that found no criminal wrongdoing by John Brennan or any other major figure connected with the Russian election interference matter. We'll stay on top of that story. Another break for us. We'll be right back. The wildly popular podcast host and author and entrepreneur Scott Galloway is my guest on this week's the Best People podcast. You can listen to our conversation right now by scanning the QR code on your screen, or you can download it wherever you get your podcasts. And as always, let me know what you think on Instagram or bluesky. Oh my gosh, it's six o'.

[Haley Robson]

Clock.

[Nicole Wallace]

Thank you for letting us into your homes today. We are grateful.

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