"Another one of his stated reasons for starting this deeply unpopular war of choice bites the dust"

Summary

Podcast Summary: Deadline: White House

Host: Nicolle Wallace
Episode: "Another one of his stated reasons for starting this deeply unpopular war of choice bites the dust"
Date: May 13, 2026

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Overview

This episode of "Deadline: White House" is anchored by Nicolle Wallace’s sharp political insight and features a panel of national security experts, legal analysts, and academics. The discussion is split into two main themes:

1. The unraveling narrative of the Trump administration's war in Iran: New intelligence reveals the failure to meet key objectives, undermining White House rhetoric, and highlighting the military and geopolitical consequences.

2. Assault on democracy and voting rights in America: The show pivots to address the deliberate dismantling of Black political power in the South post-Supreme Court decision, with a call to action for leaders and citizens to respond to rapid democratic backsliding.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Iran War: Administration Narrative vs. New Reality

The Failed Objective: Ballistic Missile Capabilities

• Trump admin’s stated goal was to destroy Iran's missile capabilities (per Marco Rubio, Secretary of State/National Security Advisor) [00:56–01:00].
• New reporting (NYT, Washington Post) and U.S. intelligence both confirm that:
  • Iran retains about 70% of its mobile missile launchers and missile stockpile (long-range and cruise missiles) [01:46–02:30].
  • Access to 30 of 33 missile sites along the Strait of Hormuz has been restored, sustaining the threat to U.S. ships and oil tankers [02:30].
  • The U.S. has failed to significantly degrade Iran’s military abilities, contradicting White House claims [04:00].

Quote:

“Brand new reporting… reveals that Iran's military is far from crippled after weeks of war…”
— Nicolle Wallace [01:18]

Military Tactics, Stockpile Depletion, and Fragile Ceasefire

• U.S. military used smaller bombs to seal, not destroy, missile storage bunkers; Iranians dug them out during ceasefire [05:43–06:41].
• Massive depletion of U.S. munitions (Tomahawks, Patriots, etc.); resupply may take years, decreasing U.S. readiness elsewhere [14:22–15:18].
• The current ceasefire is “on life support”; risk of escalation if new strikes are ordered [03:48].

Quote:

“We are spending millions of dollars to knock down $20,000 drones from the Iranians…perhaps we shot up in the first month a four year supply of Tomahawk missiles. This is not going well.”
— Brigadier General Steve Anderson [15:30]

Strategic and Political Failure

• Press coverage is being attacked by Trump, who labels accurate reporting as “virtual treason” [01:12].
• Administration spins the facts, contradicts its own intelligence, intensifies isolation [10:12–11:09].
• China emerges as a strategic beneficiary, watching the U.S. overextend itself [08:30].

Quote:

“Truth is always the first casualty of war...We can’t trust the Iranian regime, and we can’t trust the Trump regime.”
— Paul Rykoff [08:30]

Geopolitical Fallout and Military Discontent

• U.S. allies alienated, reputation diminished; Iran’s influence grows [16:10].
• Military leaders call for negotiations, not further escalation.
• Increased risk to U.S. service members, with domestic political fallout anticipated for Republicans in the upcoming midterms [11:09].

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2. Assault on Democracy: Voting Rights, Gerrymandering, and “Second Lost Cause”

South’s Redistricting & Supreme Court’s Impact

• Southern states dismantling majority-Black districts post-“Clay” SCOTUS decision; e.g., South Carolina poised to erase its only Democratic seat [18:55–20:34].
• Systematic disenfranchisement of Black voters is reframed as a continuation of historic cycles ("the second lost cause") [21:08].

Quote:

“What we're witnessing…are elements of the second lost cause...And so here we are, a deep, deep existential question. How do we survive this moment and how do we imagine the future in light of it?”
— Eddie Glaude [21:08]

Organizing and Resistance

• Mass marches and organizing efforts planned in southern cities (Selma, Montgomery, Mississippi) to fight back [22:10].
• Frustration voiced over perceived silence from former allies and broader American society [23:39–25:05].

Legal & Institutional Failure

• Mark Elias highlights the predictable, devastating repercussions of the Supreme Court’s decision and the calculated targeting of Black communities [25:21].
• Business leaders and mainstream legal institutions called out for inaction, with historical examples of effective coalition-building cited (e.g., 2006 Voting Rights Act reauthorization) [30:40].

Quote:

“This is rolling back the foundation of what made America possibly a democracy beginning in the 1960s. And yet in most quarters, there’s silence. I won't be silent.”
— Mark Elias [28:35]

Path Forward: Naming and Confronting the Reality

• Plea for clarity and moral courage from political, legal, and business leaders; explicit naming of white nationalism in government [40:23–40:48].
• Warning that without prioritizing voting rights, no reform will matter [39:30].

Quote:

“We have to name the devil that has us by the throat. Stop being scared of saying that racism is motivating this, that white nationalists have seized the executive branch of government.”
— Eddie Glaude [40:23]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The objective of this mission…the destruction of their Iran's ballistic missile capabilities.”
  — Marco Rubio, as quoted and critiqued by Nicolle Wallace [00:58]

• “It's a strategy failure by Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth and by the President…air war alone cannot win this war.”
  — David Rhoad [06:51]

• “Trump is often in conflict with his own intelligence community…we just have to take Trump's word for it. And the whole world thinks that Trump is a liar.”
  — Paul Rykoff [10:12]

• “We are being led by people that don’t know what they’re doing…it’s going to get worse, not better. The strait is not open, and it won’t be open until we get to the negotiating table.”
  — Brig. Gen. Steve Anderson [12:05]

• “It is devastating…black voters are bearing the brunt of it. We’re literally seeing the diminution of black political power, an all out assault on black representation.”
  — Eddie Glaude [20:34]

• “Why isn't the legal establishment speaking out about this being an atrocious, an undemocratic decision?...This is rolling back the foundation of what made America possibly a democracy…”
  — Mark Elias [28:35]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:54–04:00 — Breaking down the intelligence on Iran’s missile threat and military status
• 05:05–07:35 — Journalistic integrity, administration’s narrative, military implications
• 08:30–09:57 — Military and geopolitical limitations, impact on U.S. allies and global stability
• 14:22–15:18 — Senator Kelly on munitions depletion
• 18:55–25:05 — South’s dismantling of Black districts; historical and emotional context (Eddie Glaude)
• 25:21–30:40 — Mark Elias on Supreme Court’s consequences, coalition-building, business/legal responsibilities
• 36:22–40:23 — Urgency of voting rights as priority for Democrats and the nation
• 41:26–42:20 — Chris Hayes reflects on partisan identity and the Iran War’s unpopularity

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Tone & Language

• Urgent, impassioned, and candid—delivered in the distinct, conversational style of MSNBC panel discussions.
• Combines analysis with personal testimony and calls to moral action.
• Clear condemnation of governmental, institutional, and societal failures, with panelists openly expressing frustration, disappointment, and resolve.

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Final Takeaways

This episode lays bare the failures and dangers of both American foreign and domestic policy under the current administration. The dissonance between official narratives and on-the-ground realities in Iran, combined with systematic assaults on voting rights at home, form a twin crisis for American democracy. The panel closes with a challenge to listeners and leaders: acknowledge uncomfortable truths, prioritize democracy, and act—before it’s too late.

Transcript

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[Brigadier General Steve Anderson]

The objective of this mission is the

[Nicole]

destruction of their ballistic missile capabilities and

of their naval capabilities. Hi again Everybody. It's now 5 o' clock in New York. That happened moments before we came on the air or while we were on the air. We took it live and we largely viewed Marco Rubio as the most trustworthy messenger in that moment about why we were in Iran. Not everybody said the same thing, but that's what Marco Rubio said back in March. Marco Rubio, of course, is Donald Trump's Secretary of State. He's also his national security advisor. And he could not have been more clear in his public statements, quote, the objective of this mission, the war in Iran, is the destruction of their Iran's ballistic missile capabilities, end quote. Well now as Donald Trump ramps up his attacks on the free press, on journalists and journalism, accusing them of, quote, virtual treason. It's a quote from Donald Trump for reporting on the war. Yet another one of his stated reasons for starting this deeply unpopular war of choice with Iran officially bites the dust is no more. Brand new reporting from multiple outlets reveals that Iran's military is far from crippled after weeks of war, the deaths of 13 U.S. service members, U.S. bases across the Middle east rendered, quote, all but uninhabitable, according to the New York Times, not to mention a devastating blow to US Prestige and standing around the world. US Intelligence shows that barely a dent has been made in the Iranian regime's capacity to wage War. A U.S. official with knowledge of recent intelligence assessments confirms reporting first released by the New York Times, then the Washington Post to our colleague David Rhode, that quote, about 70% of Iran's mobile missile launchers remain viable throughout the country. Iran has also retained roughly 70% of its pre war missile stockpile, which is believed to be comprised of long range ballistic and short range cruise missiles. The recent intelligence reports found Iran has restored access to 30 of the 33 missile sites it controls along the Strait of Hormuz, which could be used to target American warships and oil tankers transiting the strategic waterway. These findings directly contradict what Donald Trump and his cabinet have been saying for weeks now.

[Mark Elias]

Their missiles are mostly decimated.

[Nicole]

They have some, they have probably 18, 19%, but not a lot by comparison

to what they had.

Their missile launching capability has been substantially degraded. Their ability to launch missiles and drones is dramatically curtailed. They have some missiles, but not very many. I think we're in very good, we're in very good shape.

The ceasefire itself looking fragile. Donald Trump himself saying that it is, quote, on life support. The potential remains for a renewed combat phase in this conflict in which the US Military is now in a tough spot. New York Times reports this, quote, the US Military has already depleted its stocks of many critical munitions, yet the intelligence suggests that Iran retains considerable military capability, including around the vital Strait of Hormuz. If Trump ordered commanders to launch more strikes or take out or diminish those Iranian capabilities, then the US Military would have to dig even deeper into stocks of critical munitions. End quote. US Intelligence undercutting one of Donald Trump's goals for the war with Iran is where we start the hour. Retired US Army Brigadier General Steve Anderson is back with us. With me here at the table, senior national security reporter David Rhoad. Also joining us, Paul Rykoff. He's the host of the Independent Americans podcast and the founder and CEO of Independent Veterans of America. David, just take me through the reporting. I mean, this story exploded about 22 hours ago. First in the new York Times. You've corroborated this reporting and added some context of your own. Just take me through the actual reporting.

[David Rhoad]

This is fantastic journalism. I first want to say, this is our job as journalists is to like, is our government waging more properly, are the 50,000 service members risking their lives being served by their leadership? So it was the Washington Post first last week that came out with the 70% of the stockpile of Iran's missile stockpile surviving. That was a surprising number. There were early reports of like 30% of it being buried, 30% of it being destroyed, and the number Trump was

[Nicole]

using was 18 to 19%. So the Washington Post revelation about 70% seems to stir up reporting about how that's possible. And it's that they, they shuttered some of the.

[David Rhoad]

Exactly.

[Nicole]

Okay, explain that.

[David Rhoad]

So it was a great thing that you, your team has done a great job that the issue was that the US Only had a certain number of these very expensive bunker buster bombs that would go in, hit the underground storage facilities and destroy everything inside them. And instead they used smaller bombs to just seal those underground storage areas. The Iranians apparently, through the ceasefire, have gone in, dug into those storage areas and pulled out now. And we thought it'd be 60%. It's 70% of their missile stockpile that's shocking. The mobile launchers, these are trucks that move around with the long range ballistic missiles. That's a big threat to Israel. It's stunning that 70% of those have survived. They must have hid them. And then what you mentioned, the Strait of Hormuz, is amazing. They built 33 of these specialized sites where they could fire on ships into the Strait, whether it was U.S. navy vessels or tankers. They've restored again, I think they dug them out. 31 of the 33. It's an amazing setback for the US war in Iran.

[Nicole]

And militarily, it doesn't suggest that the US Military failed. It really speaks more to Iran's preparation for our assault.

[David Rhoad]

It's a strategy failure by Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth and by the President. It's again, this belief that air war alone can allow us to win this war, and it can't. And all these expensive bombs and weapons systems aren't enough to, you know, deal with the fact that you don't have troops on the ground, you don't control the ground. So they're going to go back into these facilities and get these weapons. You can't. I don't want a ground war. But you can't wage war on the cheap. You can't just do it from the air with cruise missiles. You need to threaten your enemy with forces on the ground. And, you know, Paul can speak about this more, but the lesson here is that just dropping bombs doesn't win wars.

[Nicole]

Let me ask you one more question about the journalism, because it has been met with all the journalism about the war in Iran, which Donald Trump seems to be blaming for the low, low approval ratings for the war itself. Donald Trump put a sticky note that read treason on top of a stack of news clips.

[David Rhoad]

So again, Paul, I want Paul and the military search to speak. But look, during the Vietnam War, the press was attacked because they didn't buy the line that the US Was bomb the Viet Cong back into the Stone Ages. It didn't work. 50,000Americans died. I spent a lot of time in Afghanistan. Paul and others have spent a lot of time in Iraq and Afghanistan as well. And we had complete air superiority in Afghanistan for 20 years. So again, this strategy of relying on air power and our amazing weaponry is just wrong and it's a mistake and it's soldiers that are paying the price for it.

[Nicole]

Your thoughts?

[Paul Rykoff]

Truth is always the first casualty of war. And we're in a really difficult and unique and dangerous situation where we can't trust the Iranian regime and we can't trust the Trump regime. So we're trying to parse through the middle of that and find out what the facts are on the ground. We're also not hearing from the Iranians, for the most part, at least the Iranian people. So I think we're in a really, really challenging situation where we need the President to prove it. And keep in mind, this is his second shot at this. He had the shot before and now he's taken a shot again and it looks like he's missed or he's failed to complete one of his, well, at least four objectives. If they're going to take out the nuke threat, then they've got to answer, where's the enriched uranium? Where are the threats? And if they can't show us, we can't believe them. And that's where we are now. So we're stuck in this place where he's trying to negotiate with China, who is ultimately the big winner this week. Right. They're just happy to sit there and watch us punch ourselves out, put 40% of our Navy in the Gulf, have 50,000 troops tied up. And now we're hearing that the army has to cut training because of their over commitment to Iran and to the border. This is how we get overextended. And, and there's no clear off ramp here. And unless we send boots on the ground, it doesn't look like we will be able to secure these missile sites, which is why no President has done this before. So now we're seeing the limitations of his strategy, the limitations of our isolation, and the dangerous overflow that can happen for the rest of the world. Because ultimately the barometer here is, is the strait open? They don't need to have full capacity. They just need to have enough to make going through the strait dangerous. And that puts them into control to have a chokehold over the world's gas station.

[Nicole]

Well, on just A single objective that was articulated by Marco Rubio, which was to, quote, destroy their ballistic missile capability. Trump's own intelligence community seems to be saying that that was not achieved.

[Paul Rykoff]

Yeah, I mean, this is where, you know, Trump is often in conflict with his own intelligence community. And now we're going to see the spin machine at full tilt. They're going to call people traitors, they're going to attack the press, they're going to attack the messengers instead of the actual facts on the ground. And I think this is a really important point, especially for Republicans. Republicans to say, prove it. If you're in conflict with the intelligence, show us. You know, Zelensky does a brilliant job of this. I think they have, like, infographics almost every single day showing the degradation of the Russian military. They talk about specific targets and what they've taken out. They have a scoreboard that the world can see every single day. We don't have that right now. We just have to take Trump's word for it. And the whole world thinks that Trump is a liar. So it does put our troops in incredibly precarious position, but now it's also putting pressure on NATO. What are they gonna do about it if America fails to solve this problem? Can Israel act on their own? Can NATO up with a solution? Because by the day, I think we are in a weaker position. Trump is more isolated and the world is less safe.

[Nicole]

General Anderson, nobody welcomes the news that Iran retains all of this capability militarily, but I think that the country disapproves. And every time the country has an opportunity to weigh in on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan when they were ongoing. And the upcoming midterms are expected to be a wipeout for Republicans for a lot of reasons, but they include the public rendering a harsh judgment about this war. The public didn't support it when it started, and the public doesn't support it now. I guess what I want to ask you is what does this reporting reveal, and in what ways might it aid the men and women of the military who are probably aware of this well ahead of the public being aware of it. What is happening inside the military now that this is public?

[Brigadier General Steve Anderson]

Well, thank you for having me, Nicole. And first of all, I want to say. I want to agree with every word that David and Paul just said. But what this is showing is that we're in the midst of the biggest geopolitical blunder in American history, and this is not going well. We are being led by people that don't know what they're doing. And that's the problem. And it's going to get worse, not better. The strait is not open, and it won't be open until we get to the negotiating table and start doing something significant. But we need to focus on that, to open up the strait and extend the ceasefire. The nuclear problem is something that's going to take months, perhaps years to develop and to negotiate, but we got to get that straight open. But right now, I mean, the military is being misused by the Trump administration. I mean, they're used to being led by civilians. And when civilian leadership like Donald Trump asks them to jump, they say, how high? But he's misusing that in order to execute a poorly run and poorly considered strategy, one that never considered the, the, the strength of the Iranian regime. You know, the CIA did an assessment and said that their, their regime is not going to be kowtowed by this kind of bombing from above. They're going to have to put boots on the ground in order to change the regime. And that is absolutely something we needed, we don't want to do. So we've got to start negotiated. We got to get this strait open, we got to extend the ceasefire, and we got to find a way out of this. Perhaps now that Donald Trump is in China, he can do something about it, talk to the Chinese to get their support in doing this. But right now, we're in the midst of a blunder and it's not getting any better, and it's going to get worse. And I'm really, really concerned that President Trump is getting more and more desperate the closer we get to the elections in November.

[Nicole]

Let me show you what Senator Mark Kelly said, because he made these comments. Pete Hegseth freaked out for lack of the proper military terminology, but just in light of what is now public now. No, I want to play them for you again.

We've been briefed by the Pentagon on specific munitions. Actually, it's been pretty detailed on Tomahawks, ATACMS, SM3s, THAAD rounds, Patriot rounds. So those interceptor rounds to defend ourselves. And the numbers are, I think it's fair to say it's shocking how deep we have gone into these magazines because this president got our country into this without a strategic goal, without a plan, without a timeline. And because of that, we've expended a lot of munitions, and that means the American people are less safe. Whether it's a conflict in the Western Pacific with China or somewhere else in the world, the munitions are depleted. You may have seen me ask the Secretary of Defense this question about how long it's going to take to replenish. We're talking about years.

It seems that that is now not in dispute. And I wonder what the level set is or what the capability of dealing with the truth as it's now been revealed is. What is the best case scenario? I think is what I'm trying to

[Brigadier General Steve Anderson]

ask you, General, the best case scenario is that we negotiate an end to this conflict because it is not going well. We are expending a great deal of munitions. I mean, it is not classified information to understand that we are spending millions of dollars to knock down $20,000 drones from the Iranians. My understanding is perhaps we shot up in the first month a four year supply of Tomahawk missiles. This is not going well. We are expending an awful lot of munitions. We are diverting from places like Korea, Patriot missiles that we would need in a fight with the North Koreans, obviously, or with the Chinese or whatever. We are weaking ourselves across the board in order to execute this poorly conceived and miscalculated blunder that's ongoing right now. Our stock is going down. Iran's is going up every day. In fact, they have probably emerged from this fight stronger. They were once a regional power. Now I believe that they're a global power. Why? Because everybody is going to come kowtowing to them to get through the Strait of Hormuz. Their control has established themselves as a global power that everybody must respect and has completely changed their standing in the entire world. The United States, just the opposite. We're going down. We've lost our allies. The GCC is mad at us. We're showing ourselves to be essentially a bunch of uncontrollable bullies being led by donkeys that don't know what they're doing.

[Nicole]

Brigadier General Steve Anderson, David Robe, Paul Rykoff, thank you so much for starting us off this hour to deal with this reporting. I'm sure this is not the last time we'll have this conversation when we come back. Speaking of the midterms, red states are racing to eliminate majority black congressional districts all across the south, trying to maintain their grip on power amid Donald Trump's soaring unpopularity. Donald Trump and his Republican Party are, as we've been discussing, so toxic, so politically weak that redrawing the maps actually might backfire on them. Our friends Marc Elias and Eddie Glove will be here to explain and talk about the growing pushback against a party and a president trying to destroy a very democracy. That's next. And the FC FCC commissioner who is sounding the alarm, warning against capitulation to Donald Trump and telling Disney that the agency is on a campaign to censor it. We'll have that story later in the hour. Devlin Whitehouse continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. Beloved South Carolina Congressman Jim Clyburn is set to become the latest victim in the war on democracy and the war on minority representation in Congress orchestrated by one Donald Trump and his Republican Party and especially Southern Republicans. South Carolina's Republican governor is expected to announce a special session which almost certainly will see the state's lone Democratic leaning district dismantled, leaving the state with seven Republican seats. Clyburn is part of a growing list of Democratic lawmakers in the south who have or who are expected to see their districts dramatically altered as a result of the Supreme Court gutting the Voting Rights Act. Home to the Rachel Maddow Show, Morning Joe, the Briefing with Jen Psaki and more Voices you know and trust. Ms. NOW is your source for news, opinion and the world. Learn more at Ms. Now. No amount of gerrymandering can change the fact that Donald Trump and his party are deeply unpopular and growing more unpopular by the hour with voters, including Republican voters. Reuters reports this quote, Republicans have won the great redistricting war of 2026, but that may not be enough for Donald Trump's party to maintain its hold on the U.S. house of Representatives in November's midterm elections. Many analysts still believe Democrats have the upper hand in the elections for the House, where Republicans currently hold a slim majority. Quote, it is incontrovertible that Republican chances in the House have increased. That was Jacob Rubishkin, who analyzes House races for the electoral forecaster Inside Elections, quote, but none of the underlying politics has changed. In a moment, voting rights attorney and founder of democracy docket Mark Elias will join our coverage. But joining me right now on set, Princeton University professor political analyst Eddie Gleib. Eddie, in some ways it is shocking that there is more bad news for our democracy in another. It's just another news cycle and it's literally like a page out of Timothy Snyder's on tyranny or from our history. And I wonder how you will deal with sort of the architecture of the elections in a second, but I wonder how you absorb the psychic blow of it.

Well, for me personally, it is devastating. We can talk about it at a certain level of the horse race politics, the Republican Party, Democratic Party, Donald Trump and what he's trying to do. But you know, black voters are bearing the brunt of it. We're literally seeing the diminution of black political power, an all out assault on black representation, the ability of black voters to have folk who will represent their interest. And that doesn't mean you have to have a black representative, right?

It doesn't.

No, it doesn't. I mean, we see in the Memphis. But you know, to be in a district that is, you know, that is skewed in such a way that the policy positions will not in some way redound back to your community. So what we're witnessing in so many ways are elements of the second lost cause. And so this cycle of betrayal that has defined our history, right. We're living it again. And the thing that to bring it home even more so, Nicole, is that we have to raise our babies in this. We have to. And whenever the fever dream spikes in the country, as it has always spiked, our task has been to get our babies to the other side. And so here we are, a deep, deep existential question. How do we survive this moment and then how do we imagine the future in light of it?

And I feel like I'll speak for myself. We train the lens on what they are doing, what Donald Trump is doing at the Republicans are doing, what the Supreme Court is doing. What should we be doing in response?

Well, what we're seeing is all roads to the south. This weekend, May 16, massive organizing is going to happen in Selma, in Montgomery, in Mississippi on May 20, massive marches being organized. You see folk, you see the churning happening on the ground. So there's this effort to say, well, we're not going to just stand by passively and let this happen. We're going to organize because we have to. But we also have to recognize, at least for me, have to recognize that five years ago, six years ago, you and I were on air, on air, talking about what happened to George Floyd. I remember the young woman who didn't have a mask on in the march. We said put a mask on. Right. We were together five years later.

I was in my basement and you were at home with your adult beverage because we were still in Covid. And I remember the conversation. I remember the day. I remember watching them and I remember tracking how many more Americans said they associated with the mission of Black Lives Matter. And the numbers, the numbers soared. And yet, or maybe, and despite that, or maybe, and because of that, I don't know, here we are talking about having to fortify the rights of black Americans to vote. It just feels like worse than a hamster wheel. We're not going around and around, we're going backwards.

Exactly in the blink of an eye. Which led us. Which should lead us to conclude that without the federal government doing what it has done over the last 60 years, what would the country be? The quickness with which the South. Louisiana, Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee. Right. Florida, Texas. The quickness with which the south has moved suggests to me at least, that they were laying in wait, that they were ready to pull the trigger, that all this was already in place. And so I'm always. I should say this, and, you know, I'm always kind of qualifying it when I'm about to say something somewhat emotional. I'm deeply disappointed in how people who were supposedly our friends are talking about this, who. It's not just simply about political power. We have witnessing the great capitulation. Nicole. The folks who were who were talking about a racial reckoning five years ago, many of them have gone silent and they stand by and they're doing the political calculus while black folk are being disenfranchised, while their power is being diminished. As Frederick Douglass said, these are the apostles of forgetfulness and their right here again. Right. And we find ourselves in this moment.

Mark Elias, I know you are swinging away. You're always in the arena, but in the ring, and we can't. When we can't have access to you, it's because you're literally in the ring. Just describe the fight to us in the bluntest terms you can muster.

[Mark Elias]

Look, I think Eddie's entirely right. I mean, the fact is that the Clay decision was the worst decision of my lifetime. I said this the day that it came out. As you recall, you asked why I was so angry. You said I was uncharacteristically angry. And I was angry because this was what we were going to see if the Supreme Court did what it did. In other words, it was entirely foreseeable. There is no way that John Roberts or anyone on the court can say, my God, I'm really surprised that the consequence of us gutting Section two of the Voting Rights act is now state after state after state where Republicans control the legislature, targeting black elected officials and black communities of voters. And I want to be clear about something. The first place that Republicans publicly commented about was when the Missouri senator, the former Attorney General Eric Schmidt, said, we need to look at all the Section 2 districts in the country and we need to start in California. Now. What a curious place for him to say to begin, because, in fact, California is not the Deep South. But for Eric Schmidt and for the Department of Justice Harmeet Dhillon, who said on it, on Social media posted that she was on it. They can't imagine that there are any black elected officials who are elected on the merits. I mean, we know California's map right now is a partisan gerrymander. We know that because David Newsom passed a partisan gerrymander. We know that because the courts adjudicated a partisan gerrymander. Sam Alito said California was a partisan gerrymander. But we are going to see Republicans, not just in Alabama and Louisiana and Mississippi and South Carolina and Georgia, where it's bad enough we're going to see them try to use this to try to delegitimize, to try to say it is illegitimate for any community of black voters to elect their candidate of choice, whether they make up 50% of the district or 70% of the district or 7% of the district, and that every black elected official is somehow suspect act. And this is what I meant when I said this is the worst opinion of my lifetime. It is not just what Kallay did to Section two of the Voting Rights act, but it is what it has unleashed and what we are going to continue to see. And so we all need to fight back in court. But I want to add one final thing that Eddie said. It is fine. It is important, it is vital that the civil rights groups right now are speaking out. But where are the rest of us? Where are the rest of us? Why isn't the legal establishment speaking out about this being an atrocious, an undemocratic decision that is undermining democracy? Where are the business leaders? Where are they in speaking out? Where are the non civil rights groups in speaking out here? And I'm not saying none of them are, but too few are. I mean, this is rolling back the foundation of what made America possibly a democracy beginning in the 1960s. And yet in most quarters, there's silence. I won't be silent. And I know Eddie won't be silent. And Nicole, I know you won't be silent.

[Nicole]

Well, I asked you last time to name names. I'll sneak in a break. I'll put in the request again and not name names to shame. But tell us who could help. Tell us who could bring along a coalition that's currently on the sidelines that may be privately whispering their agreement to you. I used to get a lot of those messages on encrypted apps. I would argue that in the time of Trump, nothing is encrypted. And I would love your ideas about what kinds of people could be helpful. No one's going anywhere. We have to Sneak in a short break. To be continued. On the other side, Marco Wise, I'll, I'll, I'll sort of say what I see and, and then I'll turn it over to you before I put you on the spot. I interviewed Jim Comey this week about whether or not it would be helpful to whomever remains inside the Department of Justice, which has been purged of, of lifelong conservatives, lifelong, you know, I guess, liberals and people for whom their political ideology was never known, even to their own colleagues, if it would be helpful to those people trying to hold the line, to hear from Lisa Monaco or Merrick Garland about what the department is and isn't, to hear them defend the cases that were brought against Donald Trump, who ordered those cases, not any of the rank and file people who have been purged and threatened. And if similarly hearing from Chris Wray would be some sort of bulwark or would fortify the men and women of the military. And he said, yes, indeed. I do not understand their silence. I know some of those people, not all three of them, and I know that they don't approve of what's happening. And I do not have any idea why they don't speak out. If they could give solace to a single person still inside the bureau, a single person who was purged or fired because of the cases they asked them to work on, they have a moral obligation to do so and their shame will last as long as they live and beyond. What is the parallel in your world in terms of the silence you're seeing?

[Mark Elias]

Okay, so I'll give you three the reason why the Voting Rights act was reauthorized 98 to 0 in 2006 when George Bush was president. You know, this statistic gets kicked around. The reason it was reauthorized with that vote was because the Business Roundtable and the CEO of Walmart came out and said, if you want to be on our good list, if you want to have a pro business agenda, you need to support reauthorizing the voting. Right. So it became a priority of large business. So the CEO of Walmart could come out and say, we are going to make your, your, our support of you. Our you being considered a good citizen in good standing or a politician contingent on you not destroying black voting rights. And by the way, every Fortune 500 company could do that. You know, the business community throws around its weight when it thinks it's important to them. Well, voting rights should be important to them. This preserv democracy should be important to them in the same way it was in 2026 when they were able to move every single Republican out of a no column and into a yes column. Number two, Brad Karp. You know, Brad Karp used to run a law firm called Paul Weiss. Before he capitulated, he accepted tons of awards from civil rights organizations about everything he was doing for voting rights. Wouldn't it be something if Paul Weiss came out today and said, notwithstanding the capitulation we had, we are going to lead a coalition of law firms, of big law firms, so that it's not just the civil rights groups, it's not just, you know, the Mark Elias of the world. It is all of us who are in this fight together. And the third one I'll say is, you know, those 98 Republicans, a lot of them are still in office. How about them? Where are any of those Republican senators and House members who in 2006 voted this way and then championed that to their constituents, black and white alike? How about those Republicans come out and say that what is going on right now with the targeting of black communities is wrong?

[Nicole]

Eddie, what I can never find an answer to on or off television is why everyone acts like this moment won't end like a balloon popping. This moment will end. And where will all of those groups Mark just listed say they were?

People are shortsighted sometimes.

It's like amnesia. This will be over in two years.

The grift can overwhelm any kind of moral compass. But it could also be very clear, Nicole, that what we're seeing are folk expressing what they really believe. This is the thing that we can't seem to grab hold of, that what we're seeing isn't some just simply people just falling, you know, fawning over Donald Trump, that they're actually revealing what's in their hearts. Right? And so this is something that's very difficult to kind of express.

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But how can you trust these people? How can you trust these folk to really be sincere and genuine in how they imagine democracy when they're willing to throw a whole demographic away in terms of our Democratic politics? I mean, and it's not just. I mean, it seems to me that Barack Obama should be calling these folk white nationalists. It seems to me that Kamala Harris should be. And these are people I side with should be calling these folk George W. Bush should be. Call every political leader that comes. Why aren't we describing who these folk are? Honestly? Because to describe them for who they are, we're gonna have to contend with the fact that 70 plus million people voted for them. And so it seems to me that if we're going to get beyond this moment, even if we, if we find ourselves in the other, we're going to have to confront who we are. We've been saying this for years. We're going to have to confront that which is at the heart of the polity, which keeps coming back. It's like a tapeworm in the, in the, in the gut of the country eating away at our entrails and we refuse to acknowledge it.

We're not going to stop trying to get to the bottom of this. I have to sneak in one more break. To be continued on the other side. Please stay with us. We're back with Mark and Eddie. Mark, let me ask you, I mean with the case of Walmart and Big Law and Eddie brings up former presidents. They've all been on the side of voting rights. They've all been on the side and it's not, I'm sure they have a variety of missions and motives. Walmart obviously has a lot of customers they care about. Voting Rights act has a lot of customers that only have the right to vote because of the Voting Rights Act. Big Law has seen its brand enhanced by being on the right side of history. I guess that's the most generous motive to ascribe to the folks you talk about former presidents. I mean, George W. Bush reauthorized Voting Rights act in 2006. I worked for him at the time. Former President Obama said he wouldn't have been president without it. So let's assume all those are benevolent motives. It feels like the only part of the ledger that you can use to push them toward doing something they believed in at the time and hopefully still believe in is public opinion. And I wonder to that point why Democrats aren't making this issue. One, two and three.

[Mark Elias]

Look, I spend my days trying to make this issue number one. Number one, number one. And so I encourage everyone to do that. I think that it is easy to say why aren't Democrats talking more about this and talk more about that. I'm hearing Democrats talk about this issue. I am seeing them issue statements I just saw before I came on statements about condemning the fact that Georgia is about to, that governor of Georgia is called a special session. So I'm not letting anyone off the hook. But I think we need to keep in mind that the problem Here is not convincing Democrats. Right now. Every Democrat in the House and every Democrat in the Senate would vote to do away with mid cycle redistricting and partisan gerrymandering and restore the Voting Rights act and all of those things. What's standing in the way of that are the Republicans who are not supplying any of the votes, did not supply any of the votes for the John R. Lewis Voting Rights Advancement act or the Freedom to Vote Act. But I think, Nicole, the broader point, and this is something that I think we just all have to contend with with, is I have been on your show now since Donald Trump took office, saying one consistent thing every week, which is it's going to get worse. In the beginning I said we're only three months into the administration. Then I was like, we're only nine months into the administration. Now I can say we are not yet two years into the administration. And he's got more than Donald Trump's got more than half of his time left in office. And it is going to get substantially worse than it is now. Now we're going to see more political prosecutions, we're going to see more attacks on voting rights, we're going to see attacks on free and fair elections, we're going to see undermining more pillars of democracy, and we're going to see more of the guardrails fail. And as that happens, Nicole, we're going to see more and more cowardice and less and less courage. And so it's important that we all continue to recognize that. And those pockets of courage have to feed on themselves. We have to find each other. We have to set aside our differences and stop internal squabbles. And we have to build on it because it's otherwise going to get real lonely real fast. And so, you know, I'm happy to be on with Eddie because he and I both share the same values as I am to be on with you. And I just hope more voices are willing to join this fight because it's going to be a long one.

[Nicole]

Let me come at it from the other angle then. The political climate is undeniable, right? The Republicans are wildly unpopular. It is so undeniable that that is ostensibly the motive or a motive for Donald Trump's raking of the maps. What, in your view, is possible if Democrats do as I think even every Republican believes they should retake the majority in the House and take control of the Senate. Mark, what's on the line, I guess, is what I'm asking.

[Mark Elias]

Yeah. So look, this is a place where you Want to know where I have had differences with Democrats. I wish they had done voting rights earlier in Joe Biden's term. We kept being told to wait and wait and wait. They needed to do an economic plan. I understood that. Then they needed to do the inflation Reduction act and, and I understood that. But by the time we get to voting rights, if you recall, Nicole, presidents get their signature moments early in their term and then it gets harder and harder. And so I hope when Democrats retake either chamber, both chambers, both chambers and the White House, hopefully at some point they prioritize voting rights and they prioritize democracy issues because those are gating issues that without which none of the rest of it will matter and none of the rest of it will be possible. So I certainly hope that that's it. Now obviously, like I said, there are other items that need to be on the agenda as well. But voting rights and democracy reform have to be front and center.

[Nicole]

Eddie the only thing I would say I agree completely with everything Mark said. But what we have to finally do is to name the devil that has us by the throat. Stop being scared of saying that racism is motivating this, that white nationalists have seized the executive branch of government. We have to name it in order to fight it.

I think. Glad. Mark Elias, two of the voices that we rely on around here every day. Thank you for being here with us today. Quick break for us. We'll be right back. Two cable hosts walk into a podcast studio that's about the premise of this week's episode of the Best People podcast. I was lucky enough to get to sit down and spend some quality time with my colleague and friend Chris Hayes. And he, as usual, is chock full of insights, things I never thought of before. Listen to what he told me about a difference he sees between Republicans and Democrats.

The other fundamental thing I think you're putting your finger on is a sense that every conservative and Republican has from very young that the country is with us and we are the true representative of America. And the sense that so many Democrats have that they aren't and worried that

they aren't and which isn't even true,

which is not true.

[David Rhoad]

I mean that, that, I mean that's

[Nicole]

the thing about right now, right? I mean particularly right now. Like people don't, you know, the Iran war being a perfect example. Like people don't like it. They just, no one, no one likes it and people like don't like it. Who are have my politics, people who don't have my politics, people who are religious, people who are secular. And I think the only way out is through. And what I mean by that is ultimately it's all in the doing and it's not the theorizing. So like, like you gotta go out and do and I think you're seeing different candidates from the Democratic Party in very different ways.

Exactly which Democrats Chris is talking about and referencing and noticing and calling out. You have to watch the full episode. It's out now on YouTube. Just scan the QR code on your screen or download to listen. Wherever you get your podcasts, be sure to let me know what you think on Instagram or Blue Sky. One more break. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes tonight.

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