“Banding together”

Summary

Podcast Summary: Deadline: White House

Episode: “Banding together”

Host: Nicolle Wallace (MS NOW)
Date: November 18, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the historic passage in the House of Representatives of legislation to release the Jeffrey Epstein files—a move achieved through intense public pressure, bipartisan cooperation, and the advocacy of Epstein survivors. Host Nicolle Wallace guides an examination of how this legislative breakthrough marks both a milestone for transparency in the Epstein case and a significant political setback for President Donald Trump, whose efforts to block the bill ultimately failed, sparking fractures within the Republican party. The conversation features firsthand survivor accounts, analysis from legal and political reporters, and reflections on the implications for both parties moving forward.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Historic Passage: The Vote to Release the Epstein Files

• Near Unanimity: The House passed the bill with only one dissenting Republican vote, despite strong lobbying by Donald Trump and allies to prevent its release.
• Role of Survivors: Survivors of Epstein’s abuse played a crucial role in galvanizing public and political support for the legislation.

Nicolle Wallace (00:59): "When the bill passed, Democrats turned around to applaud the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein, who shouted back at everyone, 'Thank you.' It was an intense lobbying effort by those survivors that helped drive overwhelming public support for the legislation."

2. Survivors Demand Accountability and Bipartisanship

• Survivor Voices: Haley Robson, an Epstein survivor, delivers a powerful plea directly to President Trump and Congress, demanding transparency and the prioritization of victims over partisan politics.

Haley Robson (01:58): "I am traumatized. I am not stupid. You have put us through so much stress... I am begging every member of Congress, every representative to step up and choose the chaos. Choose the survivors. Choose the children. Protect the children."

• Call for Nonpartisanship: Survivors stress the need for Congress to act beyond party lines—“Protect all of us equally.” (03:26)

3. Political Fallout: GOP Fractures and Pushback Against Trump

• Internal GOP Conflict: Marjorie Taylor Greene, Thomas Massie, and other Republicans face severe backlash—including personal threats—for supporting the discharge petition and defying Trump’s orders.

Marjorie Taylor Greene (07:40): "I was called a traitor by a man that I fought for five—no, actually six—years for... Let me tell you what a traitor is. A traitor is an American that serves foreign countries and themselves. A patriot is an American that serves... Americans like the women standing behind me."

• Trump’s Loss of Influence: Trump’s efforts, including a last-minute investigation into Democrats named in the files and attacks on defectors, ultimately failed as Republican defections mounted.

Thomas Massie via Sam Stein (03:44): "The Speaker, the Attorney General, the FBI Director, the President and the Vice President could have saved us all this time and embarrassment, frankly, for our own party, if they'd just done the right thing four months ago."

4. Survivors Reflect on Bipartisan Breakthrough

• Building a Coalition: Jess Michaels, survivor and advocate, highlights unprecedented bipartisan unity in support of the bill.

Jess Michaels (10:00): "The big takeaway... is the fact that there was such a strong bipartisan effort... that's the win. That's the big win today."

• Persistence Pays Off: The incremental efforts—individual lawmakers, caucus alliances, survivor testimonies—are credited for shifting the legislative landscape.

• Memorable Quote:

Anonymous staffer via Jess Michaels (10:00): "This should not have to be an act of Congress."

5. Skepticism about True Transparency

• Concerns About the Next Steps: Despite the bill’s passage, panelists and survivors express doubts about actual file release, suspecting Trump’s administration could use ongoing investigations as pretext to delay disclosure.

Christy Greenberg (28:04): "I don't have a whole lot of faith that these files will be released... they're going to use this, you know, fake investigation... as a pretense to then be able to say, 'Well... we can't release these.'"

• Systemic Barriers: The DOJ’s procedures require evidence to open investigations, and there’s skepticism that existing leadership will resist political pressure.

6. Broader Political Implications

• Trump’s Waning Power: The episode frames this defeat as possibly the most visible sign yet of Trump’s grip on the GOP slipping—prompting speculation about future party realignments.

Nicolle Wallace (31:59): “It is a sea change for the Republican Party that has usually replied with 'how high?' when Donald Trump says jump.”

• Calculations and Courage: Panelists debate whether GOP defectors are motivated by courage or crass political calculation as Trump’s approval declines and his lame duck status becomes apparent.

Melissa Murray (35:00): "This party is going to have to reassemble into some new specimen... I think we're seeing the rebranding of Marjorie Taylor Greene... from QAnon conspiracy theorist to victim rights advocate."

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Haley Robson (Survivor, 01:58): “I am traumatized. I am not stupid... I do not feel free today. I don't know if the women behind me feel free today. So I am begging every member of Congress... Protect the children.”

• Jess Michaels (Survivor, 10:00): “I have to tell you, there was one comment of the day that has stuck with me... a staffer said, 'This should not have to be an act of Congress.'”

• Marjorie Taylor Greene (07:40): "I was called a traitor by a man that I fought for... Let me tell you what a traitor is..."

• Christy Greenberg (15:07): "This was an overwhelming rebuke of Donald Trump. And that defeat came to him at the hands of a group of women, women who had the courage to speak truth to power."

• Sam Stein (32:34): "It was only four Republicans on the discharge petition, but they withstood an incredible amount of threats from Trump... The more important thing is that you now have an example of when Republicans do bandy together, they can, in fact, force the issue on their own terms."

• Melissa Murray (41:56): "I think he's kept his eye on the constituency that matters most to him, and that is the man in the mirror... This Epstein thing is so critically important, because it has the possibility of perhaps taking some of the luster off of this legacy that he sees himself constructing..."

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:59] — Nicolle Wallace’s setup: passage of the bill & the survivors’ applause.
• [01:58] — Haley Robson’s address to Trump & Congress.
• [03:44] — Thomas Massie (via Sam Stein): Republican embarrassment and investigations.
• [07:40] — Marjorie Taylor Greene: called a traitor, defines patriotism.
• [10:00] — Jess Michaels reflects on bipartisan victory: "This should not have to be an act of Congress."
• [15:07] — Christy Greenberg: significance of women defeating Trump’s efforts.
• [18:28] — Sam Stein: MAGA coalition civil war and loss of support for Trump.
• [28:04] — Christy Greenberg: skepticism over transparency and fake investigations.
• [32:34] — Sam Stein: Republican pushback as a model of future resistance.
• [35:00] — Melissa Murray: party realignment and survivor impact.
• [41:56] — Melissa Murray: Trump’s focus on legacy, why the Epstein files matter.

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Section Summaries

Survivor Testimonies and Demands

Emotional, direct survivor appeals underscore the trauma and the desire for justice and transparency, uniting lawmakers across political divides.

Lawmaker Dynamics & GOP Division

The episode pulls back the curtain on the intense maneuvering, brave stands (and personal sacrifices) by Republican lawmakers who joined with Democrats, and the emerging fractures within the Trump-led party.

Legal and Procedural Analysis

Legal analysts unpack the questionable investigatory tactics being employed as possible delay mechanisms and stress how the real obstacles to transparency may still come from within the DOJ and executive branch.

Broader Political Shifts

The events are contextualized as part of a significant turning point in Republican politics, foreshadowing the party’s post-Trump realignment and hinting at the broader fight over transparency and abuse of power.

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Conclusion

In this episode, “Banding together,” Deadline: White House captures a day marked by survivor activism, bipartisan legislating, political courage (and calculation), and early signals that Donald Trump’s hold on the GOP may be weakening. While there remain obstacles to the actual release of the Epstein files, the episode highlights how public pressure, cross-party cooperation, and accountability narratives can drive surprising progress—even in an era of bitter polarization.

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For listeners:
If you want to understand how a group of survivors and a handful of lawmakers overcame immense partisan and personal pressure to achieve a milestone for transparency—and what it means for the future of both justice and American politics—this episode is essential listening.

Transcript

[Nicole Wallace]

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[Nicole Wallace]

Hi there everyone. It's four o' clock in New York and near you now. Unanimous vote. In the end, no amount of arm twisting by Donald Trump or threats that he lobbed on truth, social or gaslighting people by saying the Epstein case is some sort of hoax by Democrats managed to stop or slow the passage of legislation to release the Epstein files. It passed in the House of Representatives this afternoon. Just one member of Congress, a Republican named Clay Higgins, was a no vote on this legislation. When the bill passed, Democrats turned around to applaud the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein, who shouted back at everyone. Thank you. It was an intense lobbying effort by those survivors that helped drive overwhelming public support for the legislation, a crucial factor in the passage of today's vote. At a press conference this morning, the survivors reiterated their calls for transparency and insisted that partisan politics should have nothing to do with this. Here's Haley Robson with a message for.

[Haley Robson]

Donald Trump to the President of the United States of America, who is not here today, I want to send a clear message to you. While I do understand that your position has changed on the Epstein files and I'm grateful that you have pledged to sign this bill, I can't help to be skeptical of what the agenda is. So with that being said, I want to relay this message to you. I am traumatized. I am not stupid. I am traumatized. I am not stupid. You have put us through so much stress. The lockdowns, the halt of these, of these procedures that were supposed to have happened 50 days ago. The Adelita Grijalva who waited to get sworn in and then get upset when your own party goes against you. Because what is being done is wrong. It's not right for your own self serving purposes. This is America. This is land of the free. Land of the free. In 1863, we have a woman on top of the Capitol building represent freedom. I do not feel free today. I don't know if the women behind me feel free today. So I am begging every member of Congress, every representative to step up and choose the chaos. Choose the survivors. Choose the children. Protect the children.

[Nicole Wallace]

All children.

[Haley Robson]

You protect all of us equally.

[Nicole Wallace]

Wow. Choose the survivors. Protect the children. Something that Donald Trump and the Republican Party, if they wanted to, could have done a long time ago. According to the Republican co sponsor of the bill, Republican Thomas Massie.

[Sam Stein]

Watch the speaker, the Attorney General, the FBI Director, the President and the Vice President could have saved us all this time and embarrassment, frankly, for our own party, if they'd just done the right thing four months ago. Well, I'm concerned that now he's opening a flurry of investigations and I believe they may be trying to use those investigations as a predicate for not releasing the files.

[Nicole Wallace]

It's a healthy suspicion to have. Now the bill heads to the Senate and Senate Republican Leader John Thune has said it could be up for a vote this week. It remains an open question though, as Thomas Massie points out, and as Haley Robson says, I'm traumatized, not stupid. She talked about being skeptical. So it remains to be seen whether the administration will actually provide transparency and give access to the files now that Trump has ordered an investigation to be opened into any Democrats who may be named in the files. Attorney General Pam Bondi, of course, complied with the request that Donald Trump made publicly. Here's what a survivor and a Trump supporter had to say about all that. This morning.

[Haley Robson]

We are hearing the administration say they intend to investigate various Democrats who were friends with Epstein. I beg you, President Trump, please stop making this political. It is not about you, President Trump. You are our president. Please start acting like it. Show some class, show some real leadership. Show that you actually care about the people other than yourself. I voted for you. But your behavior on this issue has been a national embarrassment. It is time to take the honest moral ground and support the release of these files. Not to weaponize pieces of the files against random political enemies that did nothing wrong, but to understand who Epstein's friends were, who covered for him, what financial institutions allowed his trafficking to continue, who knew what he was doing but was too much of a coward to do anything about it. Jeffrey Epstein and Khislane Maxwell were able to recruit and abuse young girls and women, then the country will learn nothing. The country will learn nothing and has horrible history will repeat itself if we do not do something about this.

[Nicole Wallace]

It's a milestone in the push for transparency around the Epstein case, and it is where we start today. Epstein survivor, friend of the program Jess Michaels, is here. Jess, how do you feel today?

[Jess Michaels]

I'm still processing. Thank you for having me on such a historic day. It feels hopeful, cautiously optimistic.

[Nicole Wallace]

Jess, Haley said, I am traumatized, but not stupid. What does that mean?

[Jess Michaels]

When you've gone through a lot of trauma, you deal with a lot of brain fog. You deal with a lot of physical issues. You deal with cognitive thinking issues. And so I think that she was alerting everyone to, like this. There's trauma here. We may struggle with our words sometimes we may struggle with our emotions, but here we are. We're not stupid. We're strong. And I couldn't be prouder to stand with those women today or with Haley. She rocked it.

[Nicole Wallace]

Let me show you what Marjorie Taylor Greene said about you, about you and. And all of the women that have come together really, to make this case, not just to Congress, but to the American people.

[Marjorie Taylor Greene]

These women have fought the most horrific fight that no woman should have to fight. And they did it by banding together and never giving up. And that's what we did by fighting so hard against the most powerful people in the world, even the President of the United States, in order to make this vote happen. Today. I was called a traitor by a man that I fought for five. No, actually six years for. And I gave him my loyalty for free. I won my first election without his endorsement, beating eight men in a primary. And I've never owed him anything, but I fought for him for the policies and for America first. And he called me a traitor for standing with these women and refusing to take my name off the discharge petition. Let me tell you what a traitor is. A traitor is an American that serves foreign countries and themselves. A patriot is an American that serves the United States of America and Americans like the women standing behind me. And I want to tell you that this only became possible today because the American people, whom we serve as representatives here in Congress, demanded that this vote happen. And they put more pressure on every single elected politician in this city than has ever been put on them.

[Nicole Wallace]

You know, there is not a lot of bipartisan stuff that happens in Congress. And because of the choices you all made before you were this unit. I mean, I think the first time I interviewed you, you talked about how you hadn't met a lot of the survivors before the September 1st, September 3rd press conference. And I wonder what it feels like to have brought a bipartisan vote, an overwhelming near unanimous bipartisan vote, along in just two short months in today's climate.

[Jess Michaels]

That is the big takeaway from today. We don't know what's going to happen with the files. We don't know how long this is all really going to take. But the fact that there was such a strong bipartisan in effort, the fact that we sat in the women's caucus and theythey hadthe Democratic women's caucus and they brought in some of the Republican women caucus members and that we all stood in the same room sharing the same goals, I think that's the win. That's the big win today. And I have to tell you, there was one comment of the day that has stuck with me and it willit will stay with me aboutit is the phrase of the day. A womanone of the staffers was talking with us and she had tears in her eyes and she said this should not have to be an act of Congress. Yeah, it was so true. And sadly, here we are. But the sisterhood of all of the survivors and now connecting with all of the women in Congress and in the House, we feel really strongly that we have a lot of support and from the American people.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, it is, I think, the first thing that's been more popular than any of the officials in either political party. And it's maybe my theory is it's what gives some folks to buck the more senior people in their party. But what do you think about Thomas Massie and the Republican women? Kind of went out on a limb before we arrived at this place where we are today. How important were they to moving it over the line?

[Jess Michaels]

I think everyone did their part beautifully. I know that they Ro Kahana in Thomas Massie, you know, brought this dispatch petition to fruition and then we had three other Republican women that joined. I think it's been a small move of the needle every single day, week, month, and it has taken lots of tiny steps to get us where we are today, where we stood in the House gallery and watching a near unanimous vote. I mean, we've all come together to move mountains and what people said couldn't happen, wouldn't happen. We all did it together.

[Nicole Wallace]

Jess, what is your hope for what happens next?

[Jess Michaels]

That's a good question because I really do feel like we are still at just the bottom of the next mountain. Like I said, I'm cautiously optimistic I think the beautiful thing, as I mentioned, was the bipartisanship. But to change the degree of institutional failure is going to take a lot of effort on a lot of people's part. So my hope is that we all continuously work together in a nonpartisan, bipartisan way that is going to serve the American people and keep women, children, young men safe. That's the most important thing.

[Nicole Wallace]

Jess, I've said this to you before. I am in awe of your ability to speak about what happened to you and to be part of this public effort. And you're so right. With, without it, without doing this thing that I think is so impossible, I can imagine it, it might not have happened. So I hope you feel all of the support that you guys helped bring about for this effort for transparency. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you.

[Jess Michaels]

Thank you for having me.

[Nicole Wallace]

I want to bring into our coverage NPR congressional reporter Claudia Gorsales. And joining me at the table, legal analyst Christy Greenberg. She's a former criminal division deputy chief at SDNY and the host of the YouTube show Courtside. Christy, it is a remarkable change of events, right? We had, you know, came out of the summer, the survivors were on Capitol Hill speaking directly to Donald Trump. And there was a question mark, I think, even just 10 days ago about whether Trump would be able to peel off some of the four Republican votes before Congresswoman Grijalva was. And that that was sort of the dynamic, that maybe that was the calculation behind Mike Johnson waiting to swear her in, I think, seven weeks. I don't know if it was the overwhelming rejection of the Republican sort of offerings that Tuesday night. I don't know if it was the swell of public support for transparency. I don't know if it was everything that these women have done by telling their stories over and over again to the American people. But, but a near unanimous vote in the House of Representatives is just, it doesn't happen anymore.

[Christy Greenberg]

Just feel like this is such a significant moment. This was an overwhelming rebuke of Donald Trump. And that defeat came to him at the hands of a group of women, women who had the courage to speak truth to power. Three Republican women who wouldn't back down to pressure tactics, including being taken into the Situation Room, told to back down, and they wouldn't. So they get credit, too. I mean, the fact that the will of these women was more powerful than the will of the president, I think is such a significant and really beautiful moment. Now, Donald Trump isn't going to stop fighting this, right? His playbook hasn't worked today but he will keep fighting. He still has his Department of Justice at his beck and call to do his bidding. So this isn't over. But the fact that the fight isn't over today, this was a significant battle. Donald Trump lost and these women won.

[Nicole Wallace]

Claudia, let me show you what Donald Trump is feeling right now in as far as we can deduce from how he lashed out at a reporter from ABC News today.

[Melissa Murray]

Mr. President, why wait for Congress to.

[Nicole Wallace]

Release the Epstein files? Why not just do it now?

It's not the question that I mind. It's your attitude. I think you are a terrible reporter. It's the way you ask these questions. You start off with a man who's highly respected asking him a horrible, insubordinate and just a terrible question. And you could even ask that same exact question nicely. You're all psyched. Somebody psychs you over at abc, they're going to psych. You're a terrible person and a terrible reporter. As far as the Epstein files is, I have nothing to do with Jeffrey Epstein. I threw him out of my club many years ago because I thought he was a sick pervert. But I guess I turned out to be right.

It's one of many explanations for why he threw him out of his club. Donald Trump hasn't offered all consistent explanations. Claudia, your thoughts just on that?

[Claudia Gorsales]

Yeah, it's just a reminder of this very ugly fight, these attacks that Trump has launched against anyone who brings up the Epstein fight files and ask questions about releasing them, or worse yet, support an effort to release them. As we saw what happened recently to Marjorie Taylor Greene, I mean, that has been a major breakup here in Republican led Washington. One of his most ardent supporters, and in her case alone, she says that with those attacks that she received, she's faced a death threat for her son, a pipe bomb threat for her family, and she says this is tearing the MAGA movement apart. And so just, just a reminder of how ugly this has gotten, despite the President's about face this past weekend telling Republicans they should vote for this measure to release the files.

[Nicole Wallace]

Claudia, to your point, here's Thomas Massie speaking about the civil war that has broken out inside the MAGA coalition.

[Sam Stein]

Well, Marjorie represents the base. I mean, she represents what we campaigned on. And more so than me, even the populist movement that, you know, brought Trump into the White House. And when he told his supporters that they're no longer his supporters if they still want the Epstein files released, he lost a lot of supporters. But Marjorie didn't. And she, you know, she's in favor of finding justice for these survivors. And so she won the argument.

[Nicole Wallace]

I'll leave it to others up close and personal to Marjorie Taylor Greene to figure out how much of this it feels. It sounds personal to me, but I don't know her. I don't know what's in her heart. It is also true, though, that it is far more popular. The public, not just the MAGA base, but the public, has a lot more enthusiasm for releasing the Epstein files than they do for Donald Trump, whose approval rating is down around the mid-30s. How much in your reporting is owed to his lame duck status, his political weakness after the Tuesday elections in which Democrats ran the tables? And how much of it is this support that has just grown among the public in part due to the work of the survivors themselves for transparency?

[Claudia Gorsales]

Yeah, it really, the timing is really illustrative of the president getting closer to this lame duck period and Republicans willing here on Capitol Hill to step out more and more and not agree with the president with every directive that he sends to the Capitol. And so this Epstein vote was probably the largest show in terms of rebuking the president and his position now. And it's interesting with the timing for Marjorie Taylor Greene and others, people are starting to look at 2028 and who's going to be taking over for the Republican Party. And folks like Greene, others may be well positioned in the end because they're standing out and they're defying the. And at the other end of this, another interesting reminder is that the president is who really brought a lot of attention to this issue last year, he and other Republicans on the campaign trail by promising they would release these files and then backtracking this year from Trump on down. And so that's where we saw folks like Thomas Massie and others line up and say, we made a campaign promise to release these files and that's exactly what we're going to do. And so this could be a watershed moment, a beginning where we see more Republicans willing to step out and disagree with the president and rebuke him and.

[Nicole Wallace]

Reap some political awards for doing it among voters. It's really, really interesting. We'll have much more on that. No one's going anywhere. Also ahead for us, we'll look at what happens procedurally next on the Hill. Senate Republican leadership has been awfully quiet on whether to release the Epstein files, but they won't be able to stay on the sidelines for much longer. Senate could vote later tonight. Plus, breaking news this afternoon, a huge blow to Donald Trump's midterm strategy and power grab. A Trump appointed judge just ruled that Texas Republicans cannot use their new gerrymandered map in the 2026 midterms. And later in the broadcast, Donald Trump warmly welcomed Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman MBS to the White House seven years after his own intelligence agencies found that the prince signed off on the brutal murder of Washington Post journalist Jamal Khashoggi. It was a stunning display today from Donald Trump and his administration clearly not reading the room. We'll have all those stories and more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. One of my favorite pieces of advice, think big to accomplish big things. Have no fear of failure.

[Christy Greenberg]

It really does come down to just trusting yourself to Julia Boorstin, hosts CNBC.

[Melissa Murray]

Changemakers and power players.

[Christy Greenberg]

Listen now wherever you get your podcasts.

[Nicole Wallace]

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We'Re back with Claudia and Christie. So, Christie, some of the analysis today goes like this, that the Republicans voted the way they did because Trump has ordered an investigation opened into Democrats. What does that even mean? I mean, and how do you invest, how do you open an investigation when you already know the outcome?

[Christy Greenberg]

Right? So your own attorney general, deputy attorney general, FBI director, all said, we went through all of the files and based on our review, we uncovered no evidence to even initiate an investigation into any uncharged third party. That was what they said. So what new evidence is there? Nothing that we've seen in the recent release of emails has changed that calculus. I mean, there were people that talked to Jeffrey Epstein that were friendly with him, that had ties to him. Well, that is not a crime. And by the way, so did Donald Trump. So there is no predicate here to open an investigation into, you know, public officials. There has to be a strong predicate to do so. And he has pointed to none. So if the U.S. attorney's office in the Southern District of New York is following their own procedures, DOJ procedures, they would be saying, you have to point us to some evidence in order to justify this investigation. You, Donald Trump, just saying all arrows point to Democrats and you're gonna find that they did all this stuff on the island. Like, that is not evidence. That is not good enough. If Jay Clayton is a serious Prosecutor.

[Nicole Wallace]

He'S the U.S. attorney.

[Christy Greenberg]

Yes. He is the leader of that office. Now, he has never been a prosecutor before. So he does not know how to do this job. If he wants to do this job the way it should be done and actually lead this office, he would say, unless you give me a predicate, unless you give me evidence, I am not going to pursue this investigation.

[Nicole Wallace]

Now, is he made up of the same stuff as Eric Siebert, the MAGA adjacent MAGA friendly U.S. attorney, but who had the ethics to resign before he charged Jim Cummings?

[Christy Greenberg]

I don't know. I think that remains to be seen. There was public reporting, I believe, by Politico that when the whole Eric Adams debacle happened, Jay Clayton at that point was not in office. Danielle Sassoon was the interim U.S. attorney at that point. She famously said, we're not going to drop this case because this case has merit. There's public reporting. I believe it was by Politico that Jay Clayton was telling her, just follow the order from Amel Bovey.

[Nicole Wallace]

Oh, my God.

[Christy Greenberg]

Right. So. So if that is accurate and if that is any indication, he's going to go along with this. And the question will be, does he find anybody at SDNY who's willing to actually join this investigation and look just at Democrats and have that be the parameter of what they're looking at that is so antithetical to anything that we are taught as prosecutors about how to conduct a legitimate investigation. So they should honor their oath and they should say no.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, and you'll have an apples to apples comparison, because Jeff Berman went, asked to do the same thing, refused.

[Christy Greenberg]

Absolutely. And he wrote a whole book about all the ways in which he held the line so that the impartiality and independence of the office wouldn't be questioned. But again, Jeff Berman had been a prosecutor in that office. He understood the tradition. He understood that he needed to follow his principles. And at least as of now, I don't have a whole lot of confidence that Jay Clayton will do the same.

[Nicole Wallace]

So, Claudia, what is the sort of reasoning that Republicans gave for their vote today?

[Haley Robson]

Right.

[Claudia Gorsales]

In terms of House Speaker Mike Johnson on down for those who had been fighting this effort? One thing we heard is that they voted with a caveat with the expectation that this bill could be amended in the Senate. Johnson seemed to signal that that was very possible. He was having conversations with Senate Majority Leader John Thune to make that happen, but that is not a certainty in terms of how this could play out in the Senate. Of course, we heard Johnson say there were concerns about the release of surviv names and other issues with the bill since it was not negotiated together with the Republican leadership, however, there's a lot of concerns in terms of amending this bill and adding new guardrails that would limit the information that is released. So Thune is in the hot seat in terms of the next steps he will take. But he signaled it could come up quickly in the next few days, and it's possible that he will not have this bill amended and send it to President Trump's destination, just as the President said it was possible they could do.

[Nicole Wallace]

What is the scenario where this actually leads to transparency?

[Christy Greenberg]

So I don't have a whole lot of faith that these files will be released. I think that they're going to use this, you know, fake investigation. It's a political hip job, sort of disguised as an investigation, as a pretense to then be able to say, well, you know, now that there's an open investigation, we can't release these.

[Nicole Wallace]

It's like Trump and his taxes. I'm being audited, Carrie.

[Christy Greenberg]

Exactly the same thing, right? Like, this could jeopardize the integrity of our investigation. So we can't actually share all of this. But what they don't appreciate is that any sex trafficking investigation starts and ends with the victims. The victims are speaking. The victims are not going to be silenced. We saw that today. And so. So there are ways in which the victims can work with members of Congress to ensure that their stories are being told, that criminal referrals are being made if they are warranted, and that that information, if the victims give the permission, can be made public. And once the public sees these stories and what their accusations are, there's all this narrative about what's credible and not unless it's incredible on its face, unless it's false on its face. If they're providing details and information about what happened to them, how do you not take that, that seriously? And so I think once those accounts come to light, there will be pressure, not just from Congress, but from the public, for prosecutors to actually deliver justice to these victims.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, and so many of the victims who are speaking out have said themselves that they voted for Donald Trump in part because he promised transparency. So they don't have partisanship in mind. And I think that helps the fact that public beliefs. Claudia, thank you so much for your reporting on this. Christy, thank you again for starting us off on this today. When we come back, the Epstein story is looking like more than just a political nightmare for Donald Trump. His grip on the Republican Party is finally showing some real signs of loosening. We'll look at whether it's the start of a real break, something that hasn't happened in nine years. And if it is, what that says about the next three years will be like. That's next. Today's vote to release the Epstein files is certainly the most visible and humiliating political defeat for Donald Trump in his second term. But as the Wall Street Journal points out, it is just the latest sign of pushback within his own party that has put him on a path toward lame duck status earlier than anyone imagined 60 days ago. Just take what's happened this month. November started with the rebuke of Donald Trump, with widespread losses for Republicans in elections literally from one side of the country to the other. Following that, Republicans in states like Kansas, Utah and Indiana deep red America told Donald Trump no thank you after he pressured them and J.D. vance pressured them to redraw their congressional maps to gerrymander more seats for Republicans. Even on Capitol Hill, Republicans have quietly been blowing off Donald Trump a little bit, certainly more than usual. Trump has spent the last month urging Senate Republicans to kill the filibuster, which has been completely ignored by nearly all Republican senators. And his latest proposal to send struggling Americans tariff rebate checks of more than $2,000 because of his own harmful tariffs have garnered little support on Capitol Hill. It might not sound like a lot, but as someone who's covered this story for nine years, trust me, it is a sea change for the Republican Party that has usually replied with how high when Donald Trump says jump, the Wall Street Journal adds. Since his election in 2016, Trump's ironclad hold on his party has been a defining feature of his presidency. Silence among GOP lawmakers has been the dog that didn't bark and for a really long time and now they're starting to yelp a little bit, said Charlie Cook, a non partisan political analyst and former publisher of the Cook Report. They're kind of stepping out, but gingerly, he said. I want to bring in NYU law professor and legal analyst Melissa Murray. Also joining us, managing editor of the Bulwark and Ms. Now contributor Sam Stein. Let me be the first to say we will throw no parades for the Republican Party's profiles in slightly less cowardice, which is what I would call it. It's not courage. It doesn't come close to resembling courage, but it is slightly less cowardice than has been the hallmark of the GOP for the last nine years.

[Melissa Murray]

Sam?

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, I actually think I'm more bullish on it than you are, to be honest with you, because for the past eight, nine months, it's just been acquiescence. And not just by Republicans, obviously, but by law firms, by academia, by big business, and so on and so forth. And so what you've seen over the past coup weeks is, in fact, substantial. Right? I mean, it was only four Republicans on discharge petition, but they withstood an incredible amount of threats from Trump. Right. You had Lauren Boebert literally brought into the Situation Room with the attorney general and the FBI director urging her to say to take her name off the petition. That's not small. You had Tom Massie withstanding really horrific, nasty attacks on his dead wife by the president, who also has encouraged a primary challenge to him. You have Marjorie Taylor Greene, who the president, unendorsed in the then came up with some churlish nickname about Marjorie Taylor Brown. It's dumb. Don't worry about it. But it was substantial. And they all said, no, we're gonna do it. And look, obviously, the more damaging thing that will happen from this is. And the more important thing, really, is the revelation of the Epstein files. But equally important is that you now have an example of when Republicans do bandy together, they can, in fact, force the issue on their own terms. And it's not lost on me that there was a second discharge petition yesterday that got the necessary signatures. 218 in the house. That's to restore union rights to federal employees because a number of moderate Republicans this time decide to sign onto it. So, look, it takes one example. It takes collective action, but when you do break through, it gives a signal to everyone else that, in fact, you can push back on Trump and that you can withstand the pushback from him to get things done.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, I mean, Melissa, I don't even know if sort of courage enters into it. You got 43% of Americans who associate with the no king movement, only 30% who call themselves MAGA. You've got Trump down at 36%, and you've got, in the Epstein files an issue in which 81% of Americans think Donald Trump is hiding something. It may be sort of the emotional levers of sort of fear and courage, but it may just be the crass political calculations. And I Keep wondering, what is Brad Karp and Paul Weiss and the first law firm that went down there and capitulated to Donald Trump? What do they do about their marketing for the next three years?

[Melissa Murray]

So there's a lot to say about this. I think you're exactly right and sort of looking forward. Is this about courage? Is it about, you know, finding a backbone after all of these years? Or is it just assessing the reality of what's happened over the last two weeks and realizing that this president has just one more term. We're ready a quarter of the way through it, and this party is going to have to reassemble into some new specimen. And I think seeing that reassembly in real time, I think we're seeing the rebranding of Marjorie Taylor Greene. You know, she's no longer a QAnon conspiracy theorist. She's a victim rights advocate. And so we're watching this happen. I think we're going to see a lot more of this as this party starts to figure out what their identity is post Donald Trump.

[Nicole Wallace]

It's such a remarkable thing. You're right to watch in real time and to not get glazed over by it. I mean, Melissa, I wonder how much skepticism you have.

[Melissa Murray]

Listen, I think everyone can look at what these women have gone through and express real empathy and want to see transparency and justice on their behalf. So I don't doubt the veracity of her views. But again, she's also looking at the long road she has to. She is popular in her district. She has a future in the gop, however it is reconstituted. She actually has an opportunity at this point to help shape the GOP as it goes forward. And this is the first part of that. So, again, this could be truly a moment of real empathy, and I think it likely is. But this is also a longer road and a longer process, and I think a lot of people are thinking about what lies ahead for them and this party in this post Trump landscape. Notice that we haven't heard a lot from the vice president. He's usually out there being the president's number one cheerleader, taking a backseat. He is the one who is most likely to be the heir presumptive to all of this. And he's trying, it seems, to sell.

[Nicole Wallace]

From all of this. Yeah. It would be so interesting if the most toxic positioning for the next Republican primary is inside the Cabinet.

[Melissa Murray]

Right.

[Nicole Wallace]

And if the Republicans who were outside fighting it end up being more popular with the MAGA base. All right, no one's going anywhere. We'll be Right back with much more on all of this. On the other side of a quick break.

[Melissa Murray]

Home to the Rachel Maddow Show, Morning Joe, the Briefing with Jen Psaki and more. Voices you know and trust. Ms. Now is your source for news, opinion and the world. Learn more at Ms. Now.

[Nicole Wallace]

Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access, ad free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace, why Is this Happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddows original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.

We're back with Melissa and Sam. Sam, I want to read you this quote from our friend Mark Leibowitz, writing in the Atlantic about lame ducks. Quote over time, lame duck evolved into more of a time marker, referring to an elected official completing their final phase in office. That's the clinical definition at least. But lame also carries deeper connotations of diminishing cachet relating to a leader's lost status and creeping powerlessness. These notions are especially toxic to Trump. Since returning to the White House, he has governed with unchecked abandon, enjoying the total compliance and indulgence of his party. Nowhere has this been more evident than among Republicans in Congress who have given every impression of living in abject fear of Trump. His loyalty enforcer is. And as voters, which piece of that do you think the White House let get out of their peripheral? I mean, their voters are with Marjorie Taylor Greene, Lauren Boebert Massie, and I guess Mace, who voted, who led the charge with the survivors. The Fox News diet is really almost like a local newscast covering crime nearly exclusively in missing persons all over the planet. I mean, they've lost some of their peripheral vision and then there's no one sort of watching the working class voters that made up the determinative swing of vote in 16 and 24. So which part of that do you think led to his hastening of his lame duck status?

[Sam Stein]

I mean, all of it to a degree, right? So let's back up for a second because for a while, I mean, really, honestly, even now, to a degree, Trump has kind of joked at the idea that he would run again or somehow remain president after 2028. And it got to the point where it's kind of a deeply uncomfortable joke, people saying, you know, you can't do that. The Constitution forbids it. Well, you know, we have ways worth studying them. And then he. Then he admitted that he probably wasn't going to do it. And that really took the air out of the balloon, right, because then you're now actually a lame duck. So that's one obviously big thing. The second big thing is that if you've watched Trump over the past eight, nine months, where's his attention really been? It's been on a couple things. One is foreign affairs. He's traveling overseas, he's trying to cut all these deals, claims he's ended eight wars, even though that's not really true. And the other thing he's really focused on is retribution. And then the third thing he's really focused on is totally superficial stuff like a gilded ballroom and the bathrooms near the Lincoln Bedroom and all this weird stuff that doesn't really, really matter to his voters, in fact, probably offends a good chunk of them. And Trump, you know, for whatever you want to say about the guy, he understood that you have to take care of your base at all times. It's why he's never wavered on immigration. It's why he constantly says he's going to protect Social Security, Medicare. It's why he positions himself constantly as a defender of the working man. And yet he's not really done that at all during the first eight or nine months. His legislative achievement was tax cuts, tilted heavily to the rich. And everything else has been sort of focused on those three other pursuits. And I think Marjorie Taylor Greene really recognized this when she kind of veered off a little bit and said, wait a second, these premiums going up are gonna affect MAGA voters. And wait a second, Trump's kind of abandoned this America first thing. And wait a second, aren't these H1B visas really not great for the movement and so on and so forth. So I think that's the other way in which Trump has really entered lame duck status is he's taken his eye off of his key constituencies. He's admitted that he probably will not be around post 2028. And on top of that, he is focused way more on foreign affairs and superficial matters than an actual real politicking.

[Nicole Wallace]

Melissa, you got the last word.

[Melissa Murray]

So I'm going to disagree slightly with Sam. I think he's kept his eye on the constituency that matters most to him, and that is the man in the mirror. This is someone who, despite everything that's on him, is focused on legacy. Right now, that ballroom is a legacy enhancing item. The fact that he's going around the world touting his credential See, even what he does on tariffs is about cementing some kind of legacy as a consummate dealmaker. So in that sense, he may be a lame duck, but lame ducks start thinking about what it looks like in the rearview mirror. And he's focused on how he looks in the rearview mirror. And that's why this Epstein thing is so critically important, because it has the possibility of perhaps taking some of the luster off of this legacy that he.

[Nicole Wallace]

Sees himself constructing, if that hasn't happened already. Melissa Murray and Sam Stein, thank you both so much for joining us today.

[Sam Stein]

Thanks, Nicole.

[Nicole Wallace]

After the after the break, a judge called out a Republican governor's use of the state military after Trump said he wanted to crack down on crime there. That development is next. A judge in Tennessee has temporarily blocked the deployment of National Guard troops in Memphis by Tennessee's Republican governor, who state lawmakers argued had overstepped his authority. The judge writing this in her opinion today, quote, the power committed to the governor as commander in chief of the army and militia is not unfettered. This case raises important questions concerning the use of the state's military forces for domestic law enforcement purposes. The New York Times reports that Tennessee's attorney general plans to appeal the ruling before the block takes effect five days from now. We'll stay on top of that story. Up next for us, a stunning victory in court today for our friend Mark Elias, one that stops, at least for now, Donald Trump's gerrymandering attempt to rig the 2026 midterm elections. Mark Elias joins us next. So don't go anywhere. We'll be right.

Ms. Now presents the chart topping original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. This week, she sits down with American historian Heather Cox Richardson.

[Jess Michaels]

Where we are looks a great deal like the periods in our history when.

[Nicole Wallace]

We have reclaimed democracy and built something more inclusive.

On the other side, the Best people with Nicole Wallace listen now. For early access and free listening and bonus content. Subscribe to Ms. NOW premium on Apple Podcasts.