← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
"Based on clips of 'stuff blowing up'"
00:41:40
Alicia Menendez, in for Nicolle Wallace, on where things stand on Day 26 of the war with Iran, with the Pentagon deploying 3,000 more troops to the Middle East even as the U.S. sends a peace proposal to the Iranian regime.
Loading summary
Transcript83 lines
- [00:01]
Commercial Narrator
Lifelock.
- [00:01]
Tom Nichols
How can I help?
- [00:02]
Carol Lenning
The IRS said I filed my return, but I haven't.
- [00:05]
Lifelock Advertiser
One in four taxpaying Americans has paid the price of identity fraud.
- [00:08]
Alicia Menendez
What do I do?
- [00:09]
Senator Tammy Duckworth
My refund though.
- [00:10]
Carol Lenning
I'm freaking out.
- [00:11]
Tom Nichols
Don't worry, I can fix this.
- [00:12]
Lifelock Advertiser
Lifelock fixes identity theft guaranteed and gets your money back with up to $3 million in coverage.
- [00:18]
Alicia Menendez
I'm so relieved.
- [00:19]
Vera Bergen Gruen
No problem.
- [00:19]
Commercial Narrator
I'll be with you every step of the way.
- [00:21]
Lifelock Advertiser
One in four was a fraud paying American. Not anymore. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com Specialoffer terms apply if you're
- [00:31]
IXL Advertiser
a parent and want to help set up your child for success, then IXL is right for your family as an effective and affordable online learning program. IXL covers math, language arts, science and social studies using interactive practice problems for kids from Pre K to 12th grade. Listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership when they sign up today at ixl.com 20 Visit ixl.com 20 to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price.
- [01:09]
Alicia Menendez
Hi everyone. It is 4 o' clock here in New York. I'm Alicia Menendez in for Nicole Wallace. Day 26 of the war with Iran, here's where things stand. The Pentagon is deploying 3,000 more troops to the Middle east even as the US sends a peace proposal to the Iranian regime. Here at home, gas prices continue to rise. And a new poll shows that 60% of Americans think Donald Trump has gone too far in waging war against Iran. And brand new reporting shows that Donald Trump's grasp of how the war is going is based on clips of, quote, stuff blowing up. Let's begin with that astounding piece of reporting. Three current and one former US Official telling NBC News, quote, each day since the start of the war in Iran, US Military officials compile a video update for President Donald Trump. The it shows video of the biggest, most successful strikes on Iranian targets over the previous 48 hours. While officials say that Trump has plenty of conversations about the war with foreign leaders and his aides and Cabinet members, NBC News reports that, quote, the video briefing is fueling concerns among some of Trump's allies that he may not be receiving or absorbing the complete picture of the war now in its fourth week. But right now, the reality of war is puncturing Trump's delusions. Just a day after Trump said the US Won the war, a day after Trump said talks with Iran were going well, that he got a, quote, very big present but would not say what it was, a diplomatic Source inside Iran tells us that the US regime has rejected a 15 point peace proposal sent by the Trump administration through the government of Pakistan, which is acting as an intermediary. Iran has now issued its own set of demands and the New York Times reports that, quote, privately, however, some Iranian officials have said as late as Tuesday that Iran was considering meeting with US Negotiators in Islamabad, Pakistan over the next week to discuss Mr. Trump's proposal, but would not entertain a temporary ceasefire. The gap, the growing gap between what Trump says about the war and the reality of the conflict and potential negotiations is where we start today with Democratic Senator Tammy Duckworth of Illinois. She served as a combat helicopter pilot in the Iraq war and is a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee. Senator, no one better I can imagine to speak to today. Donald Trump says we have won this war. Does that comport with your own assessment?
- [03:39]
Senator Tammy Duckworth
No. All Donald Trump has done has actually immersed us in yet another unending war. Let's be clear. No one is winning this war. It's unnecessary and it's incoherent. Trump can't articulate a justification that has already, you know, for a war that has already killed 13 of our troops and put thousands of Americans in danger and sent costs through the roof here at home. I mean, he launched a war without true justification and without an idea of how he was going to end it. You know, this is the so called America First President. Well, that's baloney because, you know, he promised he wouldn't get us into a war like this. Listen, I served in Iraq. That was another endless war. But at least that one at some point had an administration going in front of Congress, debating the war and having a vote on it. And that's what we're demanding here in the United States Senate, that Trump and his administration come forward and tell us and the American people what exactly he's trying to do here and why it was justified and how does he plan on ending this?
- [04:40]
Alicia Menendez
Senator, let me ask you on that point. If you were in fact giving the oversight hearings that you have not yet been offered by this administration, who, who would you want to hear from? And what are among the questions you would want answered?
- [04:54]
Senator Tammy Duckworth
I would absolutely want Pete Hecseth in front of the committee. I would want the chairman of the Joint Chiefs in front of the committee. I would want Marco Rubio in front of the committee. This is a deeply consequential moment for our military and our democracy probably in my entire lifetime. And Secretary Hegseth and Secretary Rubio want to hide behind closed doors when they attempt to justify putting our troops in harm's way. We've had many briefings, but this administration continues to classify those briefings as top secret, even though so many of the details are actually out in the public. And, in fact, the chairman of the committee, you know, I can't talk about what was said by the people presenting, but I can say that the chairman committee has actually expressed the sentiment that the American people would not like what they hear if thisif these briefings were out in the public.
- [05:42]
Alicia Menendez
And, Senator, your reaction to the reporting that the president of the United States is watching video montages of US Strikes as he makes his own assessments about what to do next?
- [05:55]
Senator Tammy Duckworth
Well, I am deeply worried for our troops who are in harm's way. They deserve a commander in chief who has a grasp on reality and isn't thinking that they are, you know, characters in a video game for him to use any way he wants. In fact, he is using our men and women in uniform as cannon fodder for his own war of choice. And he has the Secretary of Defense, who is incredibly incompetent, that's going along with it. I don't think Trump is getting the advice that he needs. And, in fact, they're just feeding his ego and his narcissism. And this idea that this war is a video game is a real disservice to the men and women are our heroes who will always show up and do their job when we tell our men and women in uniform, we want you to go do this, they carry out the mission and they will always do their job. And they deserve leaders who would do theirs and ensure that their sacrifices are justified. And unfortunately, we don't have a person of that caliber in the White House right now.
- [06:47]
Alicia Menendez
In addition to that sacrifice that you referenced there, gas is almost $4 a gallon nationwide. The price of food soon will likely go up. Meanwhile, you have the Iranians saying they're not even entertaining a ceasefire. Your sense of how much longer Americans could continue to watch this unfold?
- [07:08]
Senator Tammy Duckworth
Well, from what I'm seeing from reporting and from what economists are saying, even if the war were to end today, the consequences of this war is going to last for many years to come. And in fact, you know, even one of the things that Donald Trump wants to negotiate with Iran is an open Straits of Hormuz. Guess what? The Straits of Hormuz was open before he launched the attack. And now we've got Iran charging ships a million dollars a ship to pass through the Straits of Hormuz. I'm pretty sure Iran is going to continue to charge that even after the war ends. And so what is he trying to do? Get us back to where we were before he launches war of choice? You know, with the $200 billion that Trump wants to, wants the Congress to authorize for Iran, we could actually fund a decade of free universal preschool for 4 year olds or provide seniors with dental, vision and hearing, and coverage through Medicare for three years. Heck, we could build over 2 million affordable homes. We could extend our ACA premium tax credits by seven years. The American people are going to suffer for many years to come as a result of Donald Trump's war of choice for his ego.
- [08:12]
Alicia Menendez
Meanwhile, Senator, let me read you what your Republican colleague Lindsey Graham tweeted today. Not only do I support POTUS and his team's efforts to negotiate with Iran to find a solution to the threats this regime presents to the region and the world, I encourage it. It is the outcome I seek, not the method. I have confidence in President Trump's negotiating team to make sure that any deal would meet the military, military objectives laid out early on. You already referenced this. The fact that those conversations were already ongoing, the fact that they reached an impasse is how we have ended up here in the first place. We are no longer negotiating from a place of strength. We are now negotiating from a different marker in the sand. When you talk to your Republican colleagues, are they with Senator Graham or do they realize what a political liability this has become for them?
- [09:03]
Senator Tammy Duckworth
Oh, they listen. Lindsey Graham never passes up an opportunity to suck up to Donald Trump. So let's be clear. But what I say is, you know, I want to be clear to my Republican colleagues. No one is winning this war. It's an unnecessary, incoherent war that Trump cannot articulate a justification for. And my Republican colleagues have a choice. They can vote on the War Powers Resolution. We've put it up three times for a vote. Now. We're going to continue to put it up for a vote. It stops the war until the administration comes to us to justify why they launched this war and importantly, what the end state is. Unlike Republicans, I'm going to keep doing my job and my constitutional duty and using the tools of the Senate to demand public hearings so we can put the Trump administration under oath and give our troops and the American people the answers that they deserve.
- [09:49]
Alicia Menendez
Senator Tammy Duckworth, thank you so much for your time today.
- [09:53]
Senator Tammy Duckworth
Thank you.
- [09:54]
Alicia Menendez
I want to bring in Wall Street Journal national security reporter Vera Bergen Gruen and staff writer at the Atlantic and contributor to the Atlantic Daily newsletter. Tom Nichols joins us as well. He is a professor emeritus of National Security affairs at the US Naval War College. Vera? All right, as far as I understand it, the Iranians say They've rejected that 15 point plan that the Trump administration has sent through intermediaries, saying they are not interested in a cease fire, but some reporting here that they may be open to having conversations. What is your reporting about the state of negotiations?
- [10:28]
Tom Nichols
Right.
- [10:28]
Vera Bergen Gruen
I mean, ultimately, what the 15 point plan is is not really a give and take. It seems to be much more of just a kind of maximalist political end game that the Trump administration wants. So they're definitely not going to be on board with that. And they've made that clear. They sent through a counter proposal which has a couple of things that they want. They want reparations for the war. They want sovereignty over the Strait of Hormuz. So for now, these two sides are kind of talking past each other, you know, having these really maximalist public postures while privately acknowledging that they're open to talk indirectly. But as of now, I mean, these sides are really not at the same table at all.
- [11:07]
Alicia Menendez
Tom, you know, we are judicious about the sound we play from Donald Trump, but I think something he said yesterday about the state of this war is worth hearing from him himself. Take a listen.
- [11:20]
Donald Trump (archival audio)
I think we're going to end it. I can't tell you for sure. You know, I don't like to say this. We've won this. This war has been won. The only one that likes to keep it going is the fake news.
- [11:34]
Alicia Menendez
Okay? It's not one. We don't need to litigate that. But it does articulate one of my concerns, which is no matter what happens, he is going to claim victory. No matter what happens, he is going to say he has won. And on some level, he has left that escape valve for himself. Because going into this war, he never declared what the actual objective was. Was it regime change? Was it nuclear denuclearization? How, how do Democrats, how does a free and fair press hold his feet to the fire when no matter what happens, he's going to claim victory?
- [12:10]
Tom Nichols
You know, we would almost be better off if he just claims victory and then starts winding this back down at this point. I think the thing that we're all hesitant to say at moments like this, when the president wanders off into these flights of fancy and Senator Duckworth walked up to that line as well, is that the president is just not, doesn't have a grasp of reality. He's not Stable. There's something not right here. And he. On. On his initiative and for his reasons. And I think Senator Duckworth was right. It's ego. He started a war, and now he can't get out of it, and he doesn't know where to turn now. And so he's getting a very filtered view of reality. They're showing him, you know, heroic montages every morning. That's bonkers. That's not how you brief. I worked for a politician. I worked for a senior senator during a war. That's not how you brief a senator, much less a president. And so this whole process has become completely haywire. So there. There really is no way to hold him accountable in the sense of, did he achieve his war aims? Because, as you say, Alicia, he's been all over the map. I will say I think everyone's been letting him off the hook, though, about what his war aims were. That first night, he said he was going to destroy the Iranian military and then hand the government over to the people of Iran. That's a regime change operation. His goal early on was obviously regime change. We have other reporting that when General Kaine said the Iranians could close the Strait of Hormuz, he said, they'll have capitulated by then. It'll be over by then. They can't do that. He really did count on this whole thing collapsing, this whole regime just collapsing in a matter of days. And that's why I think you're seeing all this flailing about. And I think that's why you're also seeing other people in the administration
- [14:15]
Alicia Menendez
who
- [14:16]
Tom Nichols
are also in way over their heads at this point, especially Hegseth, and I assume Tulsi Gabbard and J.D. vance are in there somewhere. But that's. That's why they're backing off now to say, well, we're now we're going to make sure they don't have nuclear weapons. Well, they didn't have them before and they weren't two weeks away from them. So, you know, how does this improve matters? But they're going to dial through all of these excuses, all these explanations, and say at the end, we achieved our goals, except the one that clearly motivated the start of this war, which was an attempt at regime change in a country of 92 million people.
- [14:55]
Alicia Menendez
What does it tell you, Vera, that if the objective was, in fact, regime change, not only have we not seen that, but you now almost have an emboldened Iran that is not even willing to discuss the possibility of a ceasefire.
- [15:10]
Vera Bergen Gruen
Right. I mean, today we heard the press secretary at the White House say there has been regime change because they've killed many layers of leaders, which obviously is not the usual definition of regime change. But when it comes to President Trump, what we know is that they keep citing the Venezuela model. They keep citing this. Many people would say a fantasy when it comes to Iran, which is finding a government insider going deep down enough in this infrastructure that they're going to find someone willing to work with them and basically give them the concessions the United States wants. And that way they're going to basically, you know, manage out the regime eventually. That's what they, you know, Trump mentions Venezuela in the same breath with Iran almost every day. And when you speak with, with, with people around him, many of them know that that's not a, you know, it's a, it's an entrenched theocracy. That's not a model that's going to be able to be replicated. But the president seems stuck on that. He's still talking like they're going to be able to find that person, even though they keep killing, you know, again, like some of their families, their colleagues, the people above them. It just seems to, so far, as far, only entrench this regime further. So obviously, regime change seems really, really unlikely at this point, but they don't seem to have given up on that playbook.
- [16:22]
Alicia Menendez
Well, and to your point, if you're using Venezuela as a corollary, finding a government insider like Del C. Rodriguez doesn't mean liberation for the people of Venezuela as it does for the people of Iran. It simply means the US May or may not have their own demands met. Tom, there is some just incredible reporting in the Wall Street Journal about the fears of what is happening in Iran turning into a forever war, they write. When Peter manzer, an ex U.S. army colonel who did two long tours in Iraq, considers the unfolding war in Iran, he worries the US Risks getting dragged into another long and costly fight in the Middle East. It's deja vu all over again, said Manzur, who was a brigadier commander in Iraq shortly after the 2003 invasion and later a top ed to General David Petraeus. He is now a professor of military history at Ohio State University. In Iraq. We focused on combat operations which were wildly successful, Manzur said. We had very little thought about what would follow the collapse of the regime. This is a President, Tom, who promised that he would not engage in foreign entanglements, that he would put America first. Talk to me about the possibility, not just that we're going to be enduring the realities of this at home for the next three months is the number we keep hearing from experts about. Even if the Strait of Hormuz was open today, there is still a logjam there. But the possibility that this could go on much, much longer.
- [17:47]
Tom Nichols
One of the first things I wrote about this war was that Trump clearly has what strategists and what I used to teach back in the day at the War College, what strategists call victory disease, mistaking operational victories for strategic success. He's also clearly been intoxicated by the success of these kind of one and done operations. A snatch and grab in Venezuela, bombing a terrorist camp in Nigeria, operations in Syria. And so he just figured, you know, this will be the capstone achievement, that he will be the liberator of Iran and there will be statues built to him and songs sung. That's not happening. So I suspect because he doesn't know what else to do, he's going to escalate. And then once you've put ground forces somewhere, the problem with having ground forces holding territory is they either have to hold it or give it back. Air campaigns, you fly in, you drop a ton of explosives on something, you fly out. I think what Mansour and others are worried about is at this point, we have thousands of troops headed for the region. They're going to have to grab something and hold on to it and then stay there, which is exactly what we did in Iran, excuse me, in Afghanistan and Iraq. And in those two cases, we actually had clear motives, we had clear strategic goals. Here we're sending people in because we're almost. I've described the President as a gambler who's chasing a bad bet. Now, he's going to keep investing more money and he's going to up his bet and he's going to stay at the table until something pays off. And I, and I don't think that's, that's certainly not the way to run a war. It's certainly not the way to gamble with the lives of American men and women. But I don't think he, he sees any other way out because anything else would be a kind of humiliating climb down for him, which goes back to what we were talking about earlier. He may just at this point declare victory and come back. But I think that many, that many troops headed for the region. You know, as I think it was Bob Dylan who said, when you got a lot of knives and forks, you got to cut something. So I'm concerned about that as well.
- [20:05]
Alicia Menendez
You're A. Bergen Gruen thank you for joining us today Tom. You are sticking with me. When we come back, how the war is forcing right wing TV personalities to twist themselves into knots justifying Donald Trump's actions in Iran, which more and more Americans continue to disagree with. Plus, exclusive new reporting. We are learning for the first time what Jack Smith uncovered as to why Trump was took classified documents with him from the White House. One hint it is always about the money. And later in the show when you've lost Mar? A Lago, a state House seat in Trump's backyard, has flipped to the Democrats, why his own neighbors have had enough, and what that says about expectations for November. All those stories and more when Deadlight and White House continues after this.
- [20:54]
Lifelock Advertiser
If you like sharp political analysis but want historical perspective too, check out the Signal Award winning podcast the Future of Our Former Democracy. Produced by More Equitable Democracy, the new season examines parallels between the rise of Nazi Germany and today's current political moment, and the lessons the US can learn about how Germany rebuilt its democracy to prevent extremism from taking power again. Episodes unpack how far right movements operate in modern day Germany and in the United States. They reveal why America's system has enabled minority rule, while Germany's proportional representation model has limited extremist power. Through sound, rich storytelling, personal narratives and expert interviews, the show challenges what democracy can be and explores bold ideas for a more equitable future. So don't miss out. Follow the future of our former democracy wherever you listen to podcasts today.
- [21:50]
IXL Advertiser
If you're a parent and want to help set up your child for success, then IXL is right for your family as an effective and affordable online learning program. IXL covers math, language arts, science and social studies using interactive practice problems for kids from Pre K to 12th grade. Listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership when they sign up today@ixl.com 20. Visit ixl.com.com 20 to get the most effective learning program out there at the
- [22:21]
Commercial Narrator
best price, we optimize hydration, movement, supplements and sleep. But most people completely ignore the air they're breathing. And when your air is off, your body feels it first. The Blue Signature Air Purifiers by blueair quietly remove airborne pollutants, odors, smoke and allergens, supporting deeper sleep, better recovery and clearer focus. It's the most customizable air purifier you can get, with exclusive accessories designed to fit your space and your style. Visit blueair.com and use code signature30 to elevate your wellness routine
- [22:54]
Alicia Menendez
as Donald Trump's war of choice with Iran continues to drag on with no clear off ramp. A massive cheerleading campaign is underway over at Fox News. To justify or spin to their loyal MAGA audience why Trump betrayed a core campaign promise of no new wars. Here was Jesse Waters.
- [23:12]
Jesse Waters
Just yesterday, Jessica asked a question that a five year old would ask. When is this thing gonna be over?
- [23:18]
Jessica Tarlov
Stop it.
- [23:19]
Jesse Waters
Okay? That's not a serious contribution to the discussion about a war, Jessica. Okay? We knew what was the objective and we're going about it methodically. If you don't know what the goal is, you are listening. Let me explain it to you.
- [23:32]
Alicia Menendez
This started out with regime change and
- [23:34]
Jessica Tarlov
ending the nuclear program.
- [23:34]
Alicia Menendez
It was never regime change.
- [23:36]
Jessica Tarlov
Yes, it was. He said today we already did a regime change because you've had Ayatollah killed.
- [23:40]
Jesse Waters
The ayatollah. Stop it. You're hyperventilating. Relax. Let me explain the war to you.
- [23:44]
Alicia Menendez
The misdirect is fine for our enemies. It's not okay for the American people. And we deserve a timeline, especially when people are worried about.
- [23:53]
Jesse Waters
I don't think you want to put a timeline on something like this. It'll be over when he says it's over and the objectives have almost been accomplished. Is this a 20 year war? Is this a 20 year war? It's three weeks. Everybody take a break. Let the man cook.
- [24:10]
Alicia Menendez
I want to bring in my colleague Katherine Rampel. She's co host of the Weekend Primetime right here on Ms. Now, and economics editor for the Bulwark. Tom Nichols is still with us. Katherine, let him cook. No need for a timeline. It's over when he says it's over. I don't even know how reassuring that is to his own base. Katherine.
- [24:31]
Jessica Tarlov
I can't imagine it is. These are the words spoken by someone who apparently either has never experienced, sacrificed or is indifferent to the sacrifice of others. Donald Trump is asking this country to risk and in many cases lose American blood and treasure. And he cannot explicitly explain what the objectives are, let alone how we will judge when they are met. And so, of course, you end up seeing his fellow, you know, allied propagandists twisting themselves into knots, trying to justify and justify whatever this war is, which sometimes it's not even a war. And dismiss the very valid concerns of the American people who worry about not only our reputation abroad, the destruction and humanitarian carnage we are wreaking abroad, but the very real costs that are being inflicted here at home as well, economically, among other things. These are valid questions for the American people to ask. And you just See Fox News circling the wagons, trying to deflect them so that the president doesn't have to answer.
- [25:38]
Alicia Menendez
Tom Nichols, these are valid questions for the American people to ask. They are valid questions for a fair and free press to ask. In fact, it is never more important that we ask these questions than in moments of international conflict. Meanwhile, you have former Trump adviser Keith Kellogg workshopping, pushing a talking point that Fox has been using to, I guess you could say, prepare their audience for the possibility of boots on the ground. Take a listen.
- [26:06]
Donald Trump (archival audio)
Look, I'm a big believer in putting boots on the ground, not necessarily into Iran, but taking Carg island and also taking the Strait of Hormuz. Look, we kind of need to do it the way the Romans used to do it.
- [26:20]
Alicia Menendez
Tom, I just want you to fact check me here. Boots on the ground in Carg Island. That is still boots on the ground. Yes.
- [26:27]
Tom Nichols
And it's boots on the ground in Iran. You know, I live in Rhode Island. I would really object if someone said, well, we're just taking Newport. We're not actually invading America. It is a psychological preparation for whatever it is Trump wants to do. Because the guiding philosophy of everyone who works for Trump, and that includes people like Jesse Waters, who works for Fox and, you know, the other propagandists. Trump is never wrong. The Dear Leader can never be wrong. No matter what he does, no matter how many times he flip flops or does a 180 or screws up. Whatever it was, it was a brilliant masterstroke. I know we've become exhausted by asking this question, but one more time, Imagine if Joe Biden had gone on television and sort of stared off into space and said, well, I had a present and it was beautiful and we won. And there are some people, Jesse Waters would be jumping up and down on his desk in prime time, screaming about the 25th Amendment and leading us into a forever war. This is purely servicing a cult of personality. It's almost beneath taking seriously. It's beneath serious comment. But it's going to happen. And unfortunately, that's the message that's going to be sent out to millions of Americans. I'm not sure it will work with all of them. I think at this point, no matter how many, no matter how much they try to put a gloss on this, this was all supposed to be over. And one more time, the goal was regime change. You know that Jessica Tarlov's absolutely right. And that's why you see these sheepish looks around the table and why Waters goes into his sort of full, you know, Arrogant goofball mode, you know, about kind of shushing the hyperventilating female at the table. But she's right. This. This war did begin about regime change, and now it's a hot mess. And, you know, Fox will never admit that because it's not a real. These are not actual people who are interested in sending any kind of dose of reality to their viewers.
- [28:42]
Alicia Menendez
Right, Katherine? I agree with Tom's point that the analysis is unserious. I think what is interesting to us is sort of the delta between what is actually happening, what a broad swath of Americans understand to be happening. And while there can. I think they can spin this piece about boots on the ground and they can spin the timeline, what they can't spin is the price that people are feeling every time they go to the pump. I will match that with some of this new polling showing that 45% of Americans are extremely or very concerned about being able to afford gas in the next few months. That's up from 30% in just after Trump won reelection. That's the problem, Catherine, that you both have the stakes of this war as it relates to everything you said, America's role on the world stage, our safety and our security, and then just the very pedestrian reality of needing to fill your tank to get to work and being afraid that you may not be able to do that in the coming weeks.
- [29:43]
Jessica Tarlov
Absolutely. Americans voted for this president because he said no new wars and lower prices. And of course, he has delivered very much the opposite. And even if the typical American is not paying close attention to what happens beyond our borders and what's happening with these military excursions, to use Trump's apparent malaprophism, they do notice what happens when they try to fill up their tank, and they notice that gas has gotten more than a dollar per gallon more expensive just over the past month. These are things that the president cannot wish away. They are the worst possible political circumstances going into a midterm. I mean, I remember in 2022 when Joe Biden was looking under every rock trying to find ways to reduce gas prices, because for the most part, presidents do not have a lot of control over the price at the pump. It turns out they have the ability to raise them. They just don't have the ability to lower them. So, yeah, I mean, I understand why this administration, and again, their propagandist allies are. Are trying to spin all of this, but they. They cannot argue with the facts. And the facts are that the affordability problem that drove the last election, that will drive this coming election is only getting worse precisely because of the actions their president has taken.
- [31:13]
Alicia Menendez
Right. And that is where you see, Tom Nichols, some of the fracturing among not just the MAGA base, but the MAGA messengers. Right. The fact that a lot of the brovers, a lot, even the Megyn Kellys of the world, Nancy Mace, Congresswoman Anna Paulina Luna, I mean, they are starting to message around the fact that, that this is unpopular. And it is almost as though we are seeing the beginning of their internal resistance.
- [31:45]
Tom Nichols
I don't know if it's an internal resistance, but I think that the delta you talked about earlier becomes overwhelming. A lot of these people have just mortgaged their souls, sold their souls for pennies on the dollar to keep trying to explain and spin and rationalize for Donald Trump like parents trying to explain their juvenile delinquent child. But the problem starts to come when you yourself start to look crazy by joining the president in his break from reality. I think that's where people say even if they want to, and I think some of them would gladly do it, they can't sell it, that at some point, you know, spin, that's a skill. You can spin things. You can say, well, the president has goals in Iran, you know, runs a terrorist state, bad regime and so on. But then to say that the price is at the pump, the kind of thing Catherine's talking about, you know, you're not seeing what you're seeing. Don't believe your lying eyes. And I think, you know, there are people, especially now that Trump, you know, we're not going to live forever with Donald Trump in the White House. There are people saying I can't look, I literally cannot look that crazy to tell people that what's happening in front of them isn't actually happening. And the president's ask of his, of his sycophants, frankly, the ask is getting higher and higher and more expensive every day for them.
- [33:21]
Alicia Menendez
Tom Nichols, Katherine Rampel, thank you both so much for being with us today. After the break, one of the reporters on that big exclusive today that Donald Trump had a personal financial motive for taking classified documents with him when he left the White House. We're going to dive into that reporting next.
- [33:45]
IXL Advertiser
If you're a parent and want to help set up your child for success, then IXL is right for your family. As an effective and affordable online learning program, IXL covers math, language arts, science and social studies. Using interactive practice problems for kids from Pre K to 12 grade. Listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership when they sign up today at ixl.com 20 Visit ixl.com 20 to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price.
- [34:16]
Commercial Narrator
We optimize everything about our health routines except the air we breathe. And when your air is off, your body feels it first. The blueair Blue Signature air Purifiers quietly remove tiny airborne pollutants and odors, supporting deeper sleep, better recovery and clearer focus. Visit blueair.com and use code signature30
- [34:33]
Jessica Tarlov
why
- [34:34]
Joyce Vance
have we asked our contractor we found on Angie.com to be our kid's legal guardian? Because he took such good care when redoing our basement that we knew we could trust him to care for our kids, all eight of them, should something happen to us.
- [34:46]
Alicia Menendez
Are you my dad now?
- [34:49]
Tom Nichols
No, sorry. I do basements connecting homeowners with with skilled pros for over 30 years. Angie the one you trust. Define the ones you trust. Find pros for all your home projects@angie.com
- [35:03]
Alicia Menendez
newly released documents reveal what a top Democrat calls damning evidence about the years long mystery surrounding why in the world Donald Trump illegally kept hundreds of classified documents at his private residence after leaving office. Ms. Now reports that according to the new memoir, before a Trump appointed judge dismissed the charges, Special counsel Jack Smith had evidence indicating that after leaving office Trump had shown a classified map to passengers on a private plane, including his future chief of staff Susie Wiles. That at least one document Trump took was, quote, so secret that only six people had authority to review it and that then candidate Trump took many top secret documents that related to his worldwide business interests, which investigators considered a likely motive for Trump concealing them. In a letter to Trump's Attorney General, House Judiciary ranking member Jamie Raskin writes, quote, this glimpse into the trove of evidence behind the COVID up reveals a president of the United States who may have sold out our national security to enrich himself. In response to this reporting, the White House insists that Trump, quote, did nothing wrong attacking Jack Smith instead, who Republicans in Congress continue to target too, while ignoring everything he found. I want to bring in senior investigative reporter Carol Lenny. Joining me at the table, legal analyst and former U.S. attorney Joyce Vance. She is a professor at the University of Alabama School of Law. All right, Carol, talk us through this new memo.
- [36:38]
Carol Lenning
Alicia, what this memo shows and we were able to review it last night and today is that In January of 2023, Jack Smith's team believed they had some evidence of Donald Trump's motive. It doesn't mean that they confirmed it. It doesn't mean that they decided they'd present this at trial. But they were talking internally about how many business records, or rather classified records, that Donald Trump had both taken and concealed at Mar A Lago pertain to his personal businesses worldwide. And they viewed that as particularly curious and suspicious. And as you have said at the very beginning, Alicia, this was the biggest mystery. Why would Donald Trump put himself in such huge criminal liability and exposure, taking so many documents that included national defense information and then lie about them to his lawyer and to the government when saying that he had returned all these classified records? As you know, In August of 2020, after Trump said he'd returned everything that was classified, FBI agents conducting a surprise search at his residence found hundreds more pages of top secret records, including these that pertain to his business.
- [37:57]
Alicia Menendez
Joyce, can you pull back the curtain for us and give us a sense of how teams develop motive, the way in which documents can inform motive, and whether once they have a theory of the case, if that theory of the case needs to then apply to all of the documents in their possession.
- [38:15]
Joyce Vance
So one of the interesting things here is that motive is not an element of the case. In other words, the government doesn't have to charge the motive in the indictment. It doesn't have to prove it at trial. But juries are human beings like the rest of us, and they're curious. And so motive helps you as a prosecutor tell the story of the case to the jury and convince them that the proof of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt matters. So you can easily understand why this would have been so important to Jack Smith and his team. They would have been looking for witness testimony, but importantly, at the documents themselves once they got access to them. You'll recall there is a real hassle over whether or not they could use these documents that lingered for weeks. But they would have scrutinized them to look for potential motives, and then they would have tested each of those motives. This is one document. We don't know if they concluded that this was, in fact the motive. We don't know if they intended to offer this evidence at trial. But it certainly suggests that the public in many ways lost when this case didn't go to trial. We never got the narrative of motive, which is as important to us as it would have been to the jury and to the team.
- [39:27]
Alicia Menendez
I have a million more questions for both of you. Please stick with us. We need to sneak in a break. We're going to talk about how Republicans are continuing to target Jack Smith. Another quick break. We're going to be right back. Back. We are back with that exclusive new reporting about why Donald Trump illegally kept hundreds of classified documents as private residence after leaving office. We're back with a reporter on that story, Carol Ledig and our friend Joyce Vance. Carol, Congressman Jimmy Raskin says prosecutors also warned that some of the documents posed an aggravated potential harm to national security or what does that mean? And do we know any details about those documents?
- [40:09]
Carol Lenning
Yes, there are quite a few documents that were found in Mar a Lago in the unannounced FBI search in August 2022 that were part of what's called SAP, special access programs. And that means that the material and the information about that program is so sensitive and so important to national security, possibly, you know, human spies, undercover operatives abroad, special covert operations that we have in foreign countries that we don't want those foreign countries to know about, that only the president or the CIA director or another cabinet level official can approve individual people having access to the information. So there were quite a few documents like that in Trump's possession, which was shocking enough, given that it was a semi public club. And some of these were kept near, like the pastry and the wine and the vodka supplies in the closet at Mar A Lago, and some were kept in a shower room. So that was very striking to the investigators. But also I think the most important thing that's referenced in this memo is that one of the documents Donald Trump had, only six people in the entire world were authorized to look at it, and that included the President of the United States. So five people besides the president were able to view this document. That's how sensitive the material was. That's how carefully our country kept this under lock and key until Donald Trump walked out of the White House with it in January of 2021.
- [41:48]
Alicia Menendez
Joyce, here's the thing. That revelation, stunning on its face, the reporting that Carol and our colleague Jackie Alemani have done on this memo and the way in which Jack Smith's team were beginning to coalesce potentially around a motive, as you said, we are not certain that that is ultimately where they landed. It's a reminder. Jack Smith has been largely barred from sharing details of this case. How much more does he potentially know and how much more does he have to tell the American people that we may or may not ever know?
- [42:22]
Joyce Vance
Yeah, I mean, limitless universe, right? It sounds like this was a misstep by the Justice Department that this one document, which sounds like the sort of summary investigators might prepare for their supervisor, maybe in this case, on a weekly or a daily basis, there was reporting, you know, that has what they are beginning to look at. But what Jack Smith knows is the totality of what they had put together by the end, pieces of evidence like this that might have come into view along the way at the end of the investigation, they would have known how it fit together with other pieces of evidence. I feel certain that they would have had a very good sense of motive or motives. And so by refusing to release Volume 2 of the Special counsel's report and prohibiting its release by Jack Smith and Judge Aileen Cannon in Florida, the judge who's done that, the same judge who had the case in front of her, has really restricted our ability to learn about the case. Not only was the case dismissed and ultimately kept from getting back on track by Donald Trump's reelection, the American people don't know the truth. And as you say, the fact that he had a document that only six people were authorized to look at and that that document was, you know, sitting wherever it was found in the ballroom or somewhere else, utterly stunning.
- [43:40]
Alicia Menendez
And just to underline a point that you made there in that analysis, what does this all tell us about the current doj?
- [43:47]
Joyce Vance
You know, the fact that there's not a special counsel in place, maybe not investigating Donald Trump criminally because that can't happen while he's in office, but not looking at the underlying situation to prevent a reoccurrence. Right. That's a pretty standard DOJ sort of investigation. How do we keep the bad thing from happening again? That's not happening here. This is Donald Trump's law firm. This is not the Justice Department that I worked at.
- [44:13]
Alicia Menendez
Joyce Vance, what a treat to have you on set. Thank you for being here. Carol Lenning, as always, thank you to you and to Jackie Elimani for that reporting. Thanks for being with us. When we come back, it is called is being called a landmark social media addiction case involving the owners of Instagram, Facebook and YouTube. We're going to tell you about it next. A landmark trial in our digital age. Today, a California jury decided Meta, the owner of Facebook and Instagram, and the video streamer YouTube, were negligent in a case brought by a young woman who accused the companies of using features designed to be addictive and causing her mental health distress. This decision could open social media companies to more lawsuits from users. The companies must now pay $6 million in damages, $3 million in compensatory damages, and an additional $3 million in punitive damages, with Meta on the hook for 70% of that amount. It's a case that tested a novel legal theory that social media sites can cause personal injury now. Like Big Tobacco before them, companies could now be on the hook if they are found to have lied to the public of the potential harm their products caused. It's just one of the thousands of lawsuits filed by teenagers, school districts and state attorneys general against Meta, YouTube, TikTok and Snap. Meta has said they will appeal the decision, so we're going to stay on that story. When we come back, Another win for Democrats who have managed to flip another Republican held seat in state legislatures across this country. The latest one right in Trump's hometown. The next hour of deadline White House continues after this.
- [45:57]
Zepbound Advertiser
Snoring, gasping during sleep, Feeling fatigued? Wake up to Zepbound Tirzepatide, the first and only FDA approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea in adults with obesity. Zeb Bound is an injectable prescription medicine that may help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea and obesity to improve their osa. Zebound should be used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity. Zepbound is Approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5 or 15mg injection. Zepbound contains Tirzepatide and should not be used with other Tirzepatide containing products or any GLP1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepbound is safe and effective for use in children. Do not share needles or pins or reuse needles. Don't take Zeb Bound if allergic to it or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer or multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes, depression or suicidal thoughts before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing pregnant, plan to be or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsened kidney problems. Talk to your doctor, call 1-800-545-5979 or visit zepbound.lilly.com Zepbound and its delivery device, Base and QuickPen are registered trademarks owned or licensed by eli Lilly Company, its subsidiaries or affiliates.