"Believe their own eyes and own ears"

Summary

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Deadline: White House — "Believe their own eyes and own ears"

Host: Nicolle Wallace
Date: January 15, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode tackles the intensifying federal crackdown in Minneapolis, with particular focus on ICE and Border Patrol’s aggressive tactics, the killing of Renee Nicole Goode, and the resulting seismic shift in public opinion around immigration enforcement and federal overreach. Nicolle Wallace is joined by Michelle MacKenzie (Senior Editor), Angela Carazone (President, Media Matters), Reverend Al Sharpton, and Congressman Robert Garcia. The conversation ties together the political, social, and personal impacts of the Trump administration’s policies, including public outrage over government overreach, shifting media narratives, and the broader implications for American democracy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Federal Violence and Public Outrage in Minneapolis

• Brutal Tactics by ICE and Border Patrol
  • Multiple recent incidents in Minnesota—ICE agents using extreme force on citizens and legal residents, car windows smashed, people dragged from vehicles, including protesters and city officials ([00:37]–[05:29]).
  • Notable escalation despite public outcry and the death of Renee Nicole Goode at the hands of an ICE agent.
  • Quote:
    “The line between policing and warfare is getting uncomfortably fuzzy. And when riot gear functions more as a provocation than protection, we should all be concerned about that.”
    — Michelle MacKenzie ([06:25])
  • Community impacts: Workers missing from vital jobs, cars left in roads causing safety hazards, and a sense of occupation in the city.
  • “It feels like the Trump administration has declared war on the state of Minnesota.” — Michelle MacKenzie, paraphrasing Attorney General Keith Ellison ([07:56])
• Fear About the Future
  • Residents see no sign of de-escalation; ICE presence is increasing with 60-day hotel reservations suggesting prolonged operations ([06:25]).

2. Public Shifts: From Immigration to Government Overreach

• Polls show a 30-point swing in attitudes: more Americans now believe ICE makes America less safe and more support abolishing the agency ([00:37]).

• Brutality impacting not just the immigrant community but American citizens at large (e.g. two Target employees who are US citizens arrested on the job).

• Cross-Partisan Concern

  • Both liberals and conservatives express outrage, shifting from a typical left-right issue to a question of fundamental rights and freedoms ([09:08]).
  • Quote:
    “I lean more on the right for a lot of issues, but when it comes to human rights, that's just something that I think is very important for a lot of people.” — Minneapolis protester ([09:31])

3. Federal Rhetoric and Escalation

• Stephen Miller’s Blanket Authorization
  • Miller, acting with the explicit endorsement of Trump, tells ICE agents they have federal immunity for their actions, warning any interference is a felony ([14:33]).
    • Quote:
      “To all ICE officers, you have federal immunity in the conduct of your duties... No one, no city official, no state official, no illegal alien, no leftist agitator... can prevent you from fulfilling your legal obligations...” — Stephen Miller ([14:33])
  • Al Sharpton rebuts, stressing that Miller’s “you have no rights that we are bound to respect” attitude is un-American ([15:38]).

4. Media, Narratives, and the Power of Video

• Viral Visual Evidence
  • The shift in public opinion is attributed not only to policy but to the proliferation of disturbing video clips—many Americans “believe their own eyes and ears” over federal messaging ([00:37], [17:30]).
  • Quote:
    “What if the very first thing we heard after reports of a shooting was what the Homeland Security secretary says, that this was a domestic terrorist? ... Most people wouldn't have questioned it... But the videos reinforce the reality people are seeing.” — Angela Carazone ([17:30])
• Cracks Within Right-Wing Media
  • Traditional pro-Trump outlets like Fox stick to the line, but other influential voices (Joe Rogan, Tim Dillon) express doubt or outright criticism of the administration’s excesses ([17:30]–[20:32]).
  • Business motives and generational divides: These newer media figures are responsive to younger audiences who are seeing raw video and demand discussion of reality.

5. Lack of Transparency and Overreach

• Refugees and Legal Residents Disappearing
  • Detailed accounts of legally admitted refugees and citizens being detained, often sent out of state (to Texas), with little recourse for families to locate them ([21:52], [23:00]).
  • Quote:
    “There's just really no transparency when people are disappeared, they don't know where they are... They seem to be taking people and then asking questions later.” — Michelle MacKenzie ([23:00])
  • Minnesota, with its robust history of refugee resettlement, seems targeted as a “proving ground” for federal tactics.

6. States' Rights and Conservative Disillusionment

• Conservatives in Minnesota and broader “red state” America now question the federal government’s intrusion and trampling of states' rights ([23:00]).
• “Donald Trump is probably going to see... Republican support peel away, in part because the humanitarian nature of this and the horrors we're seeing... but also because this runs counter to a bedrock conservative value, which is states' rights.” — Michelle MacKenzie ([23:00])

7. Critique of Right-Wing Figures: Rogan, Great Replacement Theory

• Rogan and others attempt to “play both sides,” echoing debunked conspiracy theories while criticizing militarized ICE tactics ([25:25]–[28:12]).
• Quote:
  “He's now for the great replacement theory and calling the ICE Gestapo.” — Nicolle Wallace ([28:06])
  • Carazone emphasizes Rogan is “an agent of audience capture,” his commentary shaped by fear of alienating segments of his listenership.

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Memorable Moments and Notable Quotes

• Brutality, ICE, and Ethnic Profiling
  “Why do you think they stopped you?”
  “Because I look Latino, I’m brown, and I got mustache.”
  — Christian Molina (Eyewitness) ([04:41])

• Militarization and Public Fear "It feels like a military occupation. It feels like we're under assault by our federal government... And this is the most un-American thing I can imagine."
  — Elliot Payne (Minneapolis City Council President), via Angela Carazone ([05:04])

• Escalation Rather Than De-Escalation “The killing of Ms. Goode did not slow them down or deescalate. They've escalated, they've sent in more people, they've become heavy handed, saying they were not going to share the investigation with the state.”
  — Reverend Al Sharpton ([12:56])

• Permission for Impunity “You have immunity to perform your duties... no city official, no state official, no illegal alien, no leftist agitator or domestic insurrectionist can prevent you...”
  — Stephen Miller ([14:33])

• Bipartisan Outrage and National Risk "We should take this as a threat to states all over this country because if they can win doing this, come in with the feds, tell the state to stay out of it... they will duplicate this, particularly in states led by Democrats all over this country."
  — Reverend Al Sharpton ([12:56])

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Public Shifts and Narrative Control

• “What we're seeing here is theater — not to signal that authoritarianism is coming, but that it's here.”
  — Angela Carazone ([17:30])

• “The swing is because you can't ignore it. You have people's own perception... and then you have validators like the Tim Dillons, like the Joe Rogans, like the Sean Ryans... that are saying, no, I'm no longer part of the pro-Trump train. Not on this. This is too far.”
  — Angela Carazone ([17:30])

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Economic Betrayal and Erosion of Trust

• “He calls [affordability] a hoax. And then he turns around and says that products have gone down that haven't.”
  — Reverend Al Sharpton ([39:33])

• “Why didn't you use the finger then? How are you telling people that certain items are less when they're not less? ... You're walking around with 30 Secret Service protecting you from any supermarket.”
  — Reverend Al Sharpton ([39:33])

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The Epstein Files: Lack of Transparency and Further Public Outrage

• Donald Trump's Brazen Defiance
  Ordinary citizen TJ Cebula confronts Trump over the Epstein investigation and gets the middle finger ([31:39]–[32:38]).

  • “That worker was honestly speaking on behalf of the American people... Everyone is focused and understands that Donald Trump is leading a White House coverup to protect pedophiles and the powerful men that abused and raped women and children.”
    — Congressman Robert Garcia ([32:38])

• Congress vs. DOJ
  Discussion with Rep. Garcia about the push for the Epstein files, judicial stalling, and the Oversight Committee’s efforts ([34:32]–[37:04]).

  • "Pam Bondi and Donald Trump need to do the right thing. Stop protecting pedophiles and release all the Epstein files." ([34:32])

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Timeline of Key Segments

• ICE and Border Patrol Incidents in Minneapolis — [00:37]–[05:29]
• Community Impact, Escalation, and Fear — [06:25]–[09:08]
• Broadening of Resistance Beyond the Left — [09:08]–[10:33]
• Business, Economy, and Political Risk — [10:33]–[12:55]
• Sharpton on Police State Tactics — [12:56]
• Stephen Miller’s ‘Immunity’ Statement — [14:33]
• Shift in Right-Wing Media and Polls — [17:30]–[20:32]
• Refugees and Disappearances — [21:52]–[25:25]
• Joe Rogan, Right-Wing Media, and Replacement Theory — [25:25]–[29:10]
• Factory Worker Confronts Trump, Epstein Cover-Up — [31:39]–[34:32]
• Rep. Garcia on Epstein Files — [34:32]–[37:04]
• Public’s Lived Reality and Propaganda — [39:55]–[42:24]

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Closing Thoughts

The episode powerfully illustrates a country at a turning point—confronting the dangers of unchecked federal authority, fueled by propaganda but undermined by visceral, undeniable visual evidence. Minneapolis has become a testing ground for new enforcement tactics, provoking a rare cross-partisan backlash. Polls and prominent figures show a dramatic shift in public sentiment, with immigrant communities, citizens, and traditional conservatives newly united in alarm. Through it all, Wallace and her panel underscore the importance of transparency, vigilance, and the collective determination to trust “their own eyes and ears,” not government spin.

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Transcript

[Host/Announcer]

As President Trump continues implementing his ambitious agenda. Follow along with the MSNow newsletter Project 47. You'll get weekly updates sent straight to your inbox with expert analysis on the administration's latest actions and how they're affecting the American people.

[Main Anchor/Interviewer]

The American people are basically telling the.

[Michelle MacKenzie (Senior Editor/Reporter)]

President that they are not okay with any of this.

[Host/Announcer]

Sign up for the Project 47 newsletter at Ms. Now. Project 47.

[Main Anchor/Interviewer]

Hi there, everyone. It's four o'clock in New York. Face with scene after scene after scene of increasingly brutal conduct by federal agents, often targeted at US Citizens these days, and an avalanche of disinformation from Donald Trump and his Cabinet about what the Trump administration is actually doing on our streets and in our cities. The American people are, at least for now, choosing to believe their own eyes and their own ears. Growing numbers of Americans reacting to the Trump administration with a rising tide of revulsion and conviction to resist efforts to militarize American cities. Not only do half of all Americans say that the shooting of Renee Nicole Goode by an ICE agent was not justified, about a half, 47%, of all Americans say that ICE is making the country less safe. That contrasts to 34% of Americans who say it's making the country safer. That is a 30 point swing, a 30 point shift from a year ago from the start of Donald Trump's second presidency. That same poll shows that more people now say that ICE should be abolished than say that we should keep ice. That dramatic, seismic political swing is the result. It's the consequence of people seeing scenes like these out of Minneapolis. We'll take you through them. Yesterday, woman who says she's disabled was violently yanked out of her car. Her window was smashed. Her seatbelt was cut to yank her out of the car. There she is resisting. She said she was just driving down the street where a protest happened to be taking place and was just on her way to go to the doctor. She was trying to get to a doctor's appointment. This is from Sunday. An ICE agent is kneeling on the neck of a protester, a particularly shocking and disturbing and jarring image from any standpoint, much less Minneapolis, where George Floyd was murdered five years ago. In a statement, the Department of Homeland Security insisted that the minimum amount of force necessary was used. And then they said that this video represented a, quote, split second of the incident. Looks like a little longer than a split second to me. This one's from Target last week, where two men, Christian Miranda Romano and Jonathan Aguilar Garcia, were tackled and then detained at a store at which they worked Both men are U.S. citizens. They were later released. This took place at a gas station on Sunday. Border Patrol agents led by Commander Gregory Bovino smashed a car window and took a driver into custody. That same day, ICE agents smashed the window of a car. They pulled two activists out of the car, and then they detained them. Here they are yanking them out of the car, physically throwing them onto the car. On Monday, ICE agents also rammed Christian Molina's car, then stopped him to check his immigration status. Here's what he told our colleague reporter Alex Tabit.

[Christian Molina (Eyewitness/Interviewee)]

I was going down the road, coming to my mechanic to get my car, my other car fixed. My wife was following me behind. So I was driving down the road, and I saw this heist car in the alley. And so I was driving by. I just looked at them. Once I looked at them, they, like, ran into me right away, like, start following me for no reason, just because I looked. So I got a little scared at first. I was like, why is this car. Follow me for it. I didn't make no violation, you know, any. Any. Any traffic violation. So I keep on going. Once I. I took another left. They speed up, and they just ran into my car and hit me, you know, like, trying to stop me.

[Congressman Robert Garcia]

You're an American citizen?

[Christian Molina (Eyewitness/Interviewee)]

I am, yes.

[Angela Carazone (Media Matters President)]

Why do you think they stopped you?

[Christian Molina (Eyewitness/Interviewee)]

Because I look Latino, I'm brown, and I got mustache.

[Main Anchor/Interviewer]

No one, not even city officials, are spared from the use of force and brutal tactics on the part of ICE agents. A federal agent was filmed shoving Elliot Payne, the president of the Minneapolis City Council. Here's what he said in an interview on our network.

[Angela Carazone (Media Matters President)]

It feels like a military occupation. It feels like we're under assault by our federal. Our federal government. We're seeing people walking around with assault rifles and full military gear, and then they will just dump people off without medical care after, after. After essentially torturing them. And this is the most un American thing I can imagine.

[Main Anchor/Interviewer]

The backlash, growing backlash from the public to scenes of brutality in Minneapolis is where we start today. Senior contributing editor Minneapolis native Michelle Norris is with us. She was on the ground all week covering the story and the response among its citizens in Minneapolis. With me at the table. Media Matters President Angela Carazone is here and joining us at the table as well, host of Politics Nation, president of the National Action Network, the Reverend Al Sharpton. Michelle, I start with you. Some of these incidents happened or was starting to happen while you were there. You covered a woman being profiled and. Or seemingly profiled and taken from a bus stop. But all those other incidents Obviously happening in full view of bystanders who are taking video of them seem to be escalating on the part of ice. Where do residents of Minneapolis fear this is heading?

[Michelle MacKenzie (Senior Editor/Reporter)]

They fear that we haven't seen the bottom of it. They fear that the escalation is going to continue because the numbers are increasing. They're sending more agents from ice, from CPB into the city. And at a moment where you think that they might be trying to de escalate this, you know, after the killing of a woman, after all these incidents that are all over the evening news, on the front page of the newspapers, they're doing just the opposite. Nicole. The line between policing and warfare is getting uncomfortably fuzzy. And when riot gear functions more as a provocation than protection, we should all be concerned about that. No matter where you live in Minneapolis, you're affected by this. Most of the pictures you showed were very near where I grew up. I recognize these streets. But if you live in the suburbs, if you live in the outer rung of the city, if you even live elsewhere in the state, the raids are happening all over the state. You're impacted in some because people aren't showing up for work at hospitals, at schools, at restaurants. Your local dry cleaner may not be able to deliver your clothing because there's nobody working out back. They're arresting people and taking them out of cars and then just leaving the cars in the road. And so there are traffic jams. There was a case where they pulled someone out of a car and they didn't put the car in park. And so the car starts rolling toward people walking on the sidewalk. And luckily they were able to get in that car and put it in park before it hit somebody. But Keith Ellison told me this weekend, Attorney General, Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison said it feels like the Trump administration has declared war on the state of Minnesota. From the pictures that you've shown, it looks like they have declared war on the state of Minnesota. And people throughout the state, whether they're Democrat or Republican, whether they're immigrant or not, are really concerned about this now and are worried that it's only the beginning because many of the ICE combat groups or the enforcement groups, I call them combat boots because they look like they're there for combat, but they're enforcement groups now have 60 day reservations at the hotels. So that shows that this has got a very long tail. And if this is the way they're responding at the beginning, it's not clear where it's going. They do have until I think, January 18th to respond to the lawsuit, and maybe that might be a way to narrow the parameters and the scope of these sweeps. But for now, they seem to be more aggressive, and there are more of them on the streets, and that is having a significant impact on the tenor of life throughout the state of Minnesota.

[Main Anchor/Interviewer]

MICHELLE I want to play something from a protester who sort of, I think, embodies what the polling shows, that this isn't really right, left. This almost gets into territory of government overreach. And what do you want your government to do in the name of its citizens? Let me play that for you.

[Angela Carazone (Media Matters President)]

They're constantly my neighborhoods. Everybody's in fear, whether you're a citizen or not. It's just causing so much chaos. And I live right next to that Target where those two workers were pulled out the other day. And I lean more on the right for a lot of issues, but when it comes to human rights, that's just something that I think is very important for a lot of people.

[Main Anchor/Interviewer]

Again, going into Target, a company that I think has some sort of channel to the administration. I remember when tariffs were announced, there was some pressure on them not to raise their prices. Going in and seizing two employees of a Target violently, no less, later releasing them. What is, and increasingly people with status, legal status, and American citizens being swept up. What is the stated objective to what they say they're doing? Michelle?

[Michelle MacKenzie (Senior Editor/Reporter)]

Well, you know, you'd have to ask them because it's very unclear. I mean, they said the pretext for this was coming in to root out fraud. If you were going to do that, you would be focusing on accountants and people who were actually involved in fraud, not people who work at Target. So, you know, it's not clear what the objective is, but the impact is increasingly clear. Talk to police. People work in the police department who said that they've quietly talked to folks in other jurisdictions. Police officers in other jurisdictions say that they're not certain that they, in some of them in red states, not sure that they would want federal agents to come in who are accountable to no one. You know that that is not comfortable for anyone. And you mentioned that this happened at a Target. Target is based in Minnesota. It's, you know, one of several very large companies that are based in Minnesota. There are 17 Fortune 500 companies based in Minnesota. If you widen the aperture out to Fortune 800 or Fortune 1000, that number increases by quite a bit. And there's a question about what, what, what is the business community going to say about this? That means having to stand up to Donald Trump which is not comfortable for them. There's some risk assessment there. But this impacts everyday life in Minnesota and it significantly impacts the economy. Imagine if you're trying to recruit someone to come to the state of Minnesota right now for a job. When I flew, I'm not in Minnesota anymore. I'm back in Washington D.C. when I flew home, Nicole, I was on a plane with several parents who had taken their children to go see Minnesota schools. Could you imagine as a parent sending your child to a school in the state of Minnesota, University at the state of Minnesota College in the state of Minnesota right now? So this has impacts all across the board. And as I've said to you before, I don't know what the stated objective, the formal objective is, but it's clear that in some ways they're using the state of Minnesota as a proving ground to try to get Americans used to the idea of militaristic and very aggressive law enforcement, which could drift into militaristic and very aggressive policing. Ironically, in a city that kicked off a very robust debate and eventually reforms around policing because of what happened to George Floyd, just six blocks and six years apart from where Renee Goode lost her life.

[Main Anchor/Interviewer]

Rav, what are you saying?

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

I think that we are looking at a clear atmosphere, environment of a police state. I've talked to a lot of the local activists on the ground that we worked with during George Floyd and they have continued to work since. And it is an absolute police state where you're seeing policemen grabbing people, unarmed people, people that are not even part of a protest as happened in the store and just doing whatever they want to do. And it seems as though the killing of Ms. Good did not slow them down or de escalate. They've escalated, they've sent in more people, they've become heavy handed saying they were not going to share the investigation with the state. So they're sending every signal that we're going to use this as the experimental ground to see how far we can go. And we should take this as a threat to states all over this country because if they can win doing this, come in with the feds, tell the state to stay out of it, we're going to call the victim terrorist. And they get away with this, they will duplicate this, particularly in states led by Democrats all over this country.

[Main Anchor/Interviewer]

For his part, Stephen Miller is doing what we used to describe as saying the quiet part out loud. But I actually don't think that's what this is. This is the loud part. Granting permission from the President, United States to Act however they want. Let me play that for you.

[Stephen Miller (via audio clip)]

To all ICE officers, you have federal immunity in the conduct of your duties. And anybody who lays a hand on you or tries to stop you or tries to obstruct you is committing a felony. You have immunity to perform your duties. And no one, no city official, no state official, no illegal alien, no leftist agitator or domestic insurrectionist can prevent you from fulfilling your legal obligations and duties. And the Department of Justice has made clear that if officials cross that line into obstruction, into criminal conspiracy against the United States or against ICE officers, then they will face justice.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

When you look at the facts around the Good killing, she was not obstructing anyone and he was not under threat. The ICE officer that killed her, and he proved it himself because he was taping with a smartphone while he had the gun. Who tapes if they are under threat?

[Main Anchor/Interviewer]

Who says effing B word after they barely escaped?

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

So what is Miller talking about when all of the examples he used, which by the way, is not lawful, but if they were, does not apply to what happened in the killing of Ms. Good. So I think that what they're really saying is that you have no rights that we are bound to respect. This woman, at worst, got into a back and forth where she ended it saying, I'm not mad at you, dude, and you get the right to put two bullets in her head. So I think that this is why you're seeing the American public shift, because this is not going to be tolerated by anybody. We're not talking about. We're debating some inner city shooting by police that people want to take sides for and against what I'm saying, or others are saying, this is a white woman in the suburbs that said something, I'm not mad at you, dude. And she's dead. And now we're calling her a terrorist. So if we allow that to happen, we've given up any kind of semblance of trying to have an accountable democracy in this country.

[Main Anchor/Interviewer]

If you look at the dashboard, there are a lot of negative indicators, right? The Golden Globe, the most famous people in Hollywood were silent Sunday night in their victory speeches. Corporation after corporation, including, as Michel is reporting, the ones based in Minnesota, radio silence. Stephen Miller is using the airwaves to tell any ICE officer to urging them, demanding really, that they, quote, act with impunity. The swing in public opinion is the only sort of indicator in the green right, 30 point swing. I don't know that there's another issue, maybe Trump's approval on the economy, but even right Track roundtrack hasn't swung 30 points. It is the largest swing in any of Trump's sort of dashboard indicators since he's been back. What does that mean to you?

[Angela Carazone (Media Matters President)]

A few things. One, I mean, it's worth noting that, you know, fascism and its facsimiles are theater. And what a lot of you're seeing play out in Minnesota right now is theater on their part to not sort of signal that authoritarianism is coming, but that it's here, and we shouldn't lose sight of that reality. But it's not hopeless. And to your point, there is this big swing, and I think that's a consequence of a few parts. One is that intro that you played, all those video clips. Rene Goode, we had the video. What if we didn't? What if the very first thing we heard after reports of a shooting was what the Homeland Security secretary says, that this was a domestic terrorist? How would that story have played out? Many people would have been quiet. Most people wouldn't have questioned it or wouldn't have cared because they didn't have that visual. And then the subsequent videos that we see circulating and percolating are reinforcing the reports and the feelings that people have that something's off. It's helping demonstrate that it's here and that it's present, that it's real. That alone is going to shift people's perspective because they can formulate their own opinions about it. And then it has a secondary effect, which is even more important. Part of what Trump would. You know, Trump built an organized power on the fringes, and his vehicle for doing it was this coalition, this constellation of media. It was no longer just Fox and Rush Limbaugh. He used online entities. Now we use Rogan as an example. But obviously it's a lot of other voices just like that who sort of glommed onto the MAGA train and were reinforcing a pro Trump narrative, but they're not. Fox is out there saying, this is great, right? They're toeing the line. Newsmax is saying, you want affordability, Let ICE support. They're pro Trump. But a big part of MAGA media is shifting on this. They're being much softer. They're questioning whether or not this is appropriate. They're even expressing outright criticism. You don't get that outright criticism unless one, you get the raw material, like these clips that then, as you pointed out earlier, it's not a left right issue. It's are we American or not? Are we going to sort of live in the environment that Stephen Miller is defining for all of us, or are we going to live something much more similar to what we thought America was? And that's where you're starting to see the cracks form. So that's what it all means. The swing is because you can't ignore it. You have people's own perception. And then you have validators like the Tim Dillons, like the Joe Rogans, like the Sean Ryan's of the world that are, that supported Trump, that are saying, no, I'm no longer part of the pro Trump train. Not on this. This is too far.

[Main Anchor/Interviewer]

And it's a business decision perhaps not to give them any more credit than they deserve, but it's a generational divide where the people still getting all their information from Fox News broadcasts are not the future voters, are not the future podcast streamers. They're not the people that are going to go to any live shows of any of these sort of manosphere figures. And so they're betting on sort of their, their future, not the past.

[Angela Carazone (Media Matters President)]

Yeah, that's, I think, you know, these are savvy business people. They're very sensitive to their audiences the same way anyone in media is. You know where your audience is and where they're going. You try to respond to them. And their audiences when they're not listening to their podcasts, are consuming raw video content, they're seeing the clips in their feeds. So that's, they have to respond. They can't, they can't do what Trump does. They actually have to in some way engage with reality and this is reality coming home.

[Main Anchor/Interviewer]

I guess the bad news is they're not doing it for the right reasons. But we'll deal with that on the other side of a break. No one's going anywhere. Also ahead for us, Donald Trump very pointed response, if we're calling it that, to a factory worker who expressed his displeasure with his handling of certain issues involving a notorious pedophile. Donald Trump's response saying a lot more today about how Donald Trump feels about being questioned about anything. We'll talk about that next. Also another chapter in Trump's retribution campaign. Donald Trump abusing the power of the presidency and unleashing the Department of Justice on yet another one of his so called enemies. Senator Chris Murphy will be here later on all of that, all that and much more when Dylan Whitehouse continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

[Host/Announcer]

As President Trump continues implementing his ambitious agenda. Follow along with the MSNow newsletter Project 47. You'll get weekly updates sent straight to your inbox with expert analysis on the administration's latest actions and how to they're affecting the American people.

[Main Anchor/Interviewer]

The American people are basically telling the.

[Michelle MacKenzie (Senior Editor/Reporter)]

President that they are not okay with any of this.

[Host/Announcer]

Sign up for the Project 47 newsletter at Ms. Now. Project 47.

[Main Anchor/Interviewer]

We're back with Michelangelo and the Rev. Al Michel. The New York Times has some really disturbing reporting about how some of the most vetted refugees in our country in Minnesota are being treated. And I want to read it to you. Federal immigration agents in recent days have arrested dozens of refugees in Minnesota who have passed security screenings before being admitted into the United States, according to their lawyers and immigrant rights advocates. Michelle Garnett MacKenzie, executive director of the Advocates for Human Rights in Minneapolis, said most of the detainees are being transferred to facilities in Texas. She estimated that at least 100 people have been detained. Quote, it's happening very fast, she said. It's devastating the community. Among the cases she cited was one of a Somali mother who was detained, leaving behind a toddler and another family in which a mother and two adult children were detained. Do people there have any ability to find people who are being taken and detained and based on this Times reporting, at least for now, held in Texas?

[Michelle MacKenzie (Senior Editor/Reporter)]

That's one of the difficult things about this, one of the cases where there's just really no transparency when people are disappeared, they don't know where they're Some of them are going to a federal facility, a government facility called Whipple. You've seen a lot of pictures of that throughout the week. That's out near Fort Snelling, out near the airport in Minneapolis. They have people that are tracking the planes that are leaving Minneapolis, and they estimate that about 1,000 people have been shipped out of the state, most of them to Texas. But it's very difficult for them to track them. And there are people who are deep in the system, apparently, who may have been sent out of state, who have papers or who are either citizens or in the process of getting citizenship or have temporary status while they're going through that process. And that's one of the interesting things about focusing this in Minneapolis or Minnesota, because if you wanted to really go to a state that has the largest number of undocumented immigrants, you'd probably go to Florida. You might go to California, maybe Louisiana, because Minneapolis and St. Paul and the state of Minnesota has had such a robust resettlement program over years with the Hmong, with the Vietnamese, also with Russians and Ukrainians and people from Belarus and of course, Somalia. Many of them come through and come through a process where they actually get citizenship or they have their papers. And so there are a lot of people that they're scooping up, it seems, indiscriminately, even though they have citizenship, they seem to be taking people and then asking questions later. And in the process of asking those questions, they're deep, deep in the system. I just want to say one thing. What we were talking about in the earlier segment, though, about the shift in the polling, that 30% shift, that means that there are people who probably voted for Donald Trump, probably were concerned about excess immigration in this country, have changed their attitudes on this. And in talking to people who are fairly conservative in the state of Minnesota, one of the things that they have said is, what about states rights? You know, what about the idea that the state can determine its own destiny? When the federal government starts coming in like this and telling a state what to do, they're very uncomfortable with that. And so Donald Trump is probably going to see some of his, some, you know, Republican support peel away, in part because of the humanitarian nature of this and the horrors and what we're seeing on those videos, but also because this run counters to a bedrock conservative value, which is based on states rights.

[Main Anchor/Interviewer]

I mean, the hypocrisy knows no bounds. And you were talking about the manosphere. Joe Rogan is the one who compares that conduct to the Gestapo asking for people's papers. I'm not ready to call him. Someone who is sort of marching in lockstep with the protesters because it is the most both sides BS that I've heard come out of his mouth. And the notion that people are sort of selectively playing the part that is rooted in reality and ignoring the part that seems to be creating a permission structure for the excesses is ridiculous. So I'm going to play both parts. Here it is.

[Stephen Miller (via audio clip)]

I see both perspectives. I see the perspective of the people that say, hey, there was an illegal program moving people in here to get votes, moving people in here to get congressional seats, and we've got to change that. We've got to take those people that got in and send them back to where they came from or do something, because if we don't, they're going to keep doing it. If they get in office again, again in 2028, and it's gonna accelerate, and you're gonna have to take away some of the damage that's been done to a true democratic system because you've kind of hijacked it, and they kind of have. And then I can also see the point of view of the people that say, yeah, but you don't want militarized people in the streets just roaming around, snatching people up, many of which turn out to actually be U.S. citizens. They just don't have their papers on them. Are we really gonna be the Gestapo? Where's your papers? Is that what we've come to? So it's more complicated than want to admit.

[Main Anchor/Interviewer]

He's smart. I mean, he's not the smartest guy that I've played on this show, but he's smarter than that. And I would bet my last donut that he knows the first thing he said is bs. Hey, there was an illegal program moving people in here to get votes. There's no evidence that that happened. Bill Barr called it bullshit.

[Angela Carazone (Media Matters President)]

That's right. I mean, he's parroting. And that is a thing that he's been pushing for a while. Every time Musk goes on his show, that's what they sort of giving a nod to. There is great replacement theory that somehow Democrats and others are importing all these immigrants so that they can sort of control the country forever and replace white people. I mean, he's really sort of tapping into that idea. He validates that conspiracy theory completely and I think a big piece of it. And I guess I don't want to herald Joe Rogan too much, but he's like, as you noted, he's a bit of a weather vane. He sort of shows where the wind's blowing. Audience capture is real, and he can't alienate a large part of his audience that fully is bought into that. But he also can't ignore it has come home. He can't ignore the reality of what the Trump administration is doing now in terms of these tactics. And, you know, the last thing I'll just say.

[Main Anchor/Interviewer]

Can I just say how lame that is? He's now for the great replacement theory and calling the Ice Gestapo.

[Angela Carazone (Media Matters President)]

Yeah, he definitely gets it both ways in this respect. And, you know, he gets a pass because he sort of seems goofy and like he's just asking questions and he's sort of earnest in his interest. But ultimately he is afraid of saying anything. Just positive because he doesn't want to turn off a big part of his audience and because he's audience capture, like a lot of people are online. He's not a truth teller, and he's really not interested in the truth. He's an agent of audience capture. But there's this tension, right, because on the one hand, everything that Trump is doing and saying, like in Iran, to talk about the protesters I mean, he's literally talking about protecting protesters in Iran while his own administration here is attacking protesters. And this is what people like Joe Rogan and others in that space are trying to grapple with is how do you tell Trump's story when it itself is such an internal contradiction? And the best that I can look at is that this gotten so extreme, as Michel noted with the polling, that people are being confronted with the reality of it. And he has to respond to a part of his audience that now is seeing things that maybe they didn't see a few months ago.

[Main Anchor/Interviewer]

I guess what's disappointing is that he's big enough to lead and he's choosing to follow, which to me, someone will have to explain how he's a masculine role model for anything. Michel, thank you for your incredible reporting from Minneapolis. And since you've been back, we're really grateful Angelo and the Rev stick around after the break for us. One obviously very frustrated American calling out Donald Trump over his handling of the Jeffrey Epstein investigation. We'll show you how he expressed his feelings and we'll talk to Congressman Robert Garcia about that and what he calls a White House cover up. Stay with us. Well, Donald Trump's entire vibe often feels like he is giving the middle finger to all of America and our allies. Yesterday, the president of the United States of America actually did that, actually gave someone the finger. During a tour of a Ford factory in Michigan yesterday, a factory employee called Donald Trump a, quote, pedophile protector for his conduct in the Jeffrey Epstein investigation. Clear reference to the Trump administration's foot dragging. They've only produced about 1% of the documents required by law about convicted pedophile the dead sex trafficker and Trump friend Jeffrey Epstein. But here's how the president of the United States of America responded to that. Was indisputably the middle finger. When asked about Donald Trump giving an American citizen an employee of that factory named TJ Cebula the middle finger, who's actually since been suspended from his job, told the Washington Post this, quote, as far as calling him out, definitely no regrets whatsoever. Cebulla, the worker, said, though he believes he has been targeted for political retribution for embarrassing Donald Trump in front of his friends. Quote, I don't feel as though fate looks upon you often, and when it does, you better be ready to seize the opportunity, Cebulla said. And today I think I did that. It comes as lawmakers are ramping up the pressure on Trump's Department of Justice to deliver on those long delayed required by law. Epstein files. Yesterday, a federal judge gave Trump's DOJ until Friday to respond to Congressman Thomas Massey and Ro Khanna's request for an independent overseer known as a special master to facilitate the release of the rest of the Epstein files. I want to bring into our coverage Democratic Congressman Robert Garcia of California. He's the ranking member of the House Oversight Committee, has been pivotal in the push for transparency and the push forward of the Epstein investigation being made public for the survivors. Congressman, thank you for being here.

[Congressman Robert Garcia]

Sure thing.

[Main Anchor/Interviewer]

First, any reaction to a story that has always resonated with the public members of both political parties. We've been talking about the much belly hued manosphere. The Epstein files and the COVID up has long animated energy on the right and the left. And you had an ordinary citizen talking about Trump covering up for a child sex trafficker. Donald Trump didn't take that very well. Giving an American citizen the middle finger. Your thoughts?

[Congressman Robert Garcia]

I mean, look, that that worker was honestly speaking on behalf of the American people. There is no question that everyone, Democrats, Republicans, it's the most bipartisan thing in America. Everyone is focused and understands that Donald Trump is leading a White House cover up to protect pedophiles and the powerful men that abused and raped women and children. And so the anger that that worker likely had is an anger that we all share. Why is Donald Trump protecting Ghislaine Maxwell? Why was she moved to a less secure prison? Why are we not getting all these co conspirators released in the files? Why do we have only 1% of the full files released to the public? Pam Bondi is breaking the law. Donald Trump is leading that. And that brave, and that brave worker is really speaking for all of us, demanding a release of the files.

[Main Anchor/Interviewer]

It feels like the refusal to comply with a law that Trump signed is clearly one of the most brazen defiance of the laws, as I said, including one that Donald Trump signed into law. What is your faith in the courts doing their part to force the Trump administration to comply and produce the other 99% of the Epstein files.

[Host/Announcer]

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[Main Anchor/Interviewer]

The American people are basically telling the.

[Michelle MacKenzie (Senior Editor/Reporter)]

President that they are not okay with any of this.

[Host/Announcer]

Sign up for the Project 47 newsletter at Ms. Now. Project 47.

[Congressman Robert Garcia]

Look, I think the courts generally in this Trump administration, there have obviously been moments where the courts have stepped in and really done the right thing. And so we're hopeful that will be the case as it relates to the files. I applaud what Ro Khanna and Tom Nasty are doing. Ro Khan is obviously a member of our oversight committee. So we are coordinating a lot of this work. And the judge here is right to ask these questions of doj. We do need someone to step in and compel DOJ to do the right thing. And I'll remind you, Nicole, it just hasn't been the last few weeks since the law. There's actually been a subpoena for all these documents since the summer for the same documents that Oversight Committee Democrats forced on. So this idea that's only been a few weeks or they need more time, that's just bs. They have had months to produce and prepare these documents and now we find out that a million more documents are just all of a sudden magically appearing redactions are covering up Trump's name and co conspirators and then survivors are then being exposed through some of these documents the small that have been released. And so it's completely not just corrupt, it's inept. And so we have to be more aggressive at this point. Now we're going to see where this, where this particular court and judge case ends up. Pam Bondi and Donald Trump need to do the right thing. Stop protecting pedophiles and release all the Epstein files.

[Main Anchor/Interviewer]

Now, how much more material does the committee have than has been made public?

[Congressman Robert Garcia]

So the committee obviously has what's been made public. We of course have, in addition to that, we have committee information from the Epstein estate. So the Epstein Estate has sent us tens of thousands of photographs. We have obviously other documents. We've released a lot of those documents as people are aware to the public. I mean, when you think about whether it's the birthday book and note that Donald Trump said didn't exist, we put that out through our Epstein Estate subpoenaed. When the emails that folks read where Donald Trump and Epstein and others were talking about the girls and folks that were in Donald Trump's orbit, those were acquired by the Epstein Estate. Now we're going to get more documents from the Epstein Estate and when we receive those oversight Democrats will continue to put those out to the public. But the doj, what they has is an enormous amount of documents and the idea that a vast majority are there is just crazy.

[Main Anchor/Interviewer]

Yeah. And a lot of the photos and some of the survivors have talked about the images that are so haunting. A lot of what the public has seen has come from the committee subpoenas. Congressman Robert Garcia, thank you very much for joining us today. On the other side of a very short break, we'll bring Angelo and the Rev back in on everything we've been talking about this hour. Don't go anywhere. We're back with Angelo and the Rev Rev. Something that the congressman said that's important. You know, we're covering both stories this hour. The public's reaction. Right. They're not elected Democrats feuding with Donald Trump. You've got a factory worker here flipping off Donald Trump and making a point about the Epstein cover up. You've got Americans after an American protester was shot in, killed, taking to the streets in record numbers and swinging 30 points and how it feels about ice and Donald Trump's stewardship of immigration policy.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

I think that you're seeing a lot of Americans beginning to identify with the victims here. You're talking about people that look in their own households and say, wait a minute, if my underage daughter was being violated, you're covering up somebody else's daughter. You look at the young lady good, who's a young white woman. That could be my daughter. So you're not talking about, oh, that's just Sharpton and them talking about the black thing or that's just Latinos coming across the board. You're talking about Auntie Bunker talking about his underage daughter or his kid that may be a little liberal that went to a picket line and they're saying it's too close to home. And they're saying, you promised me something that you're not delivering. You told me that you were going to do the Epstein files. You told me you were running illegal aliens across the border. Now you're going to, in the short span of one year, violate both. You're shooting American citizens and you're covering up what happened to young underage girls. And that's not what you promised me.

[Main Anchor/Interviewer]

I mean, the other piece of it is the betrayal on the economy. You know, he ran. Donald Trump famously stood at Bedminster in front of melting meat and other groceries and promised to reduce the cost of everything. Now, he calls affordability a hoax. It's the very issue that catapulted him back to the White House.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

He calls it a hoax. And then he turns around and says that products have gone down that haven't gone down. I mean, so why don't you just call me stupid? I mean, why didn't you use the finger then? How are you telling people that certain items are less when they're not less? And they're shopping every day and you're walking around with 30 Secret Service protecting you from any supermarket.

[Main Anchor/Interviewer]

Yeah, I mean, Angela, we've talked a lot about narrative dominance. You've sort of imparted that wisdom onto me. We also Read Together Project 2025. I wonder where you think we are in everyday Americans lived reality butting up against the dependence on propaganda to continue to pursue Trump's.

[Angela Carazone (Media Matters President)]

Yeah, I mean, I think that one of the through lines between what we talked about today too, and it gets into this sort of, you know, position of where the average American is, is that these aren't the traditional partisan left right issues. Right.

[Main Anchor/Interviewer]

None of them economy, Epstein, immigration.

[Angela Carazone (Media Matters President)]

Now, they each come at it from a different perspective. You know, part of the reason Trump's people were so invested in it is that they believed that this was going to expose a brand, a broad democratic conspiracy of child sex trafficking. And so they can't understand why he's protecting the very people that he's. They spent so much time aligning and everybody else seems to care, well, shouldn't you go after people that are engaged in this kind of stuff? And why are you holding it back? It's weird, it's confusing to me. And I think one of the tie ins though is that they're beginning to question and it started with the initial push around the Epstein. That was the first real crack in his relationship with the engine that was telling his story and his own audience that something seemed off and they started to ask questions. This is the moment we're in right now. There's a brief space where things are going to break through. I keep sort of reminding everyone that in just a couple weeks the Ellisons are going to consume, take over TikTok. And you know, the same way that we saw changes at cbs, I think we can anticipate changes there as well. And obviously a big part of what everyone's competing for is attention is narrative. And yeah, I think people are living in sort of a cesspool of confusion. And Trump used to give a little bit of a light and a bright spot. Now it's sort of chaotic and they're butting up against their own lived realities. These brief moments, like the videos, for example, or these instances where he's protesting so hard to hold back on things that he very easily promised and said he was gonna release. Those few moments provide a brief space of reflection in an environment where it otherwise doesn't exist. And I don't think there's going to be an arbiter that comes in and solves this problem. Strangely, it's on all of us to do it as a big sort of soupy mess. But there is a space right now what we did not have a year ago that we have now sitting at this table. The big difference between then and now is that right now people are at least being a little more reflective. Not all of his die hard supporters, but a big chunk of them, as Michel noted in the beginning, are willing to say, wait a minute, was I lied to here? What else has I not been lied to as well? And that's where the typical average everyday person is, is in that one moment where they're willing to at least be.

[Main Anchor/Interviewer]

Reflective and trust their eyes and their ears. Thank you guys so much. The Reverend Al Sharpton, Angela Carson, thank you for being at the table for the hour. When we come back, it was an all too common claim from Donald Trump on the campaign trail. This lie about my grand migrants being brought to our country just to vote. It's being debunked, of course. We'll tell you by whom next. Next time Joe Rogan spews that propaganda about illegal people or migrants voting, he might want to turn to Donald Trump's own DHS to fact check it because Trump's own DHS is poking holes in Donald Trump's oft repeated lies that elections are riddled with illegal votes cast by undocumented immigrants, according to new reporting in the New York Times. From that new reporting, quote, Trump has pushed his administration to address the alleged crimes, including prompting many states to upload tens of millions of voter records through a federal immigration verification tool run out of the Department of Homeland Security. But with the review underway, the results so far indicate there is no evidence of widespread fraud. According to interviews with government officials and documents reviewed by the New York Times. Out of the nearly 50 million voter registrations checked so far, 02% of the names have been flagged for further investigation. Even that number for investigation could be inflated. The verification tool has mistakenly flagged some people who appear to actually be citizens, according to some local election officials. We'll stay on top of all of that. Remember Bill Barr called it B.S. so you know, there's that. After the break. Donald Trump's weaponization of the Justice Department seems to know no end. He has a new target today. We'll tell you about it next.

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