"Beyond the pale"

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Beyond the Pale" – Deadline: White House

Host: Nicolle Wallace, MS NOW
Date: January 22, 2026

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Overview

This episode of "Deadline: White House" focuses on the fallout from former President Donald Trump's combative rhetoric against NATO at the Davos World Economic Forum and his administration’s reported efforts to investigate and punish lawmakers who reminded U.S. military personnel to refuse illegal orders. Nicolle Wallace leads a deep discussion into the implications for American democracy, the integrity of the U.S. military, and the broader international order, with perspectives from former high-ranking military officials, lawmakers, and frontline journalists documenting ICE activities in Minneapolis.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Trump’s Davos Speech and the Assault on NATO

[01:04 – 05:36]

• Nicolle Wallace highlights Trump's claim:

  “The United States is treated very unfairly by NATO... We give so much and we get so little in return.” (Donald Trump, [01:04])

• Wallace challenges the accuracy, referencing Denmark’s sacrifices in Afghanistan and the bedrock Article 5 solidarity NATO has shown the U.S.

• She notes alarm over Trump’s rhetoric, including the chilling suggestion that the U.S. might one day turn its weapons on its allies:

  “To even consider the idea of asking the men and women of the American military to train their weapons on allies is beyond the pale.” (Nicolle Wallace, [02:46])

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2. Defense of NATO: Voices from the Military

[05:36 – 09:49]

• Secretary Sean O’Keefe (former Secretary of the Navy):

  “This is the strongest alliance that has been ever assembled in modern history...The notion that we get nothing from this is a stretch because what we're enjoying right now...is an extraordinary relationship.” ([05:36])

• Rear Admiral Bill Baumgartner emphasizes the strategic, economic, and moral leadership the U.S. gains from NATO:

  “NATO has enabled us to claim the mantle of the leader of the free world...It is so advantageous for our trade, for the development of our financial instruments, our service economy...” ([06:57])

• Both stress the necessity of humility and magnanimity in global leadership.

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3. Retaliation Against Lawmakers and the Chilling Effect on Dissent

[09:49 – 17:28]

• Discussion centers on the Pentagon’s investigation into six lawmakers, including Senator Mark Kelly, after they reminded active military to refuse illegal orders.

• O’Keefe underscores the unique obligation of service members to obey lawful—not illegal—orders:

  “Public servants...rely on responsible leaders...to issue lawful orders...and in turn, leaders at every level need to clarify any ambiguity...” ([10:35])

• Admiral Baumgartner rebuts the idea that such a reminder could be treason:

  “If somebody asked that question of me as a commander, I would have said, I'm glad you asked that question. I don't issue unlawful orders...” ([13:42])

• Wallace plays the lawmakers’ video:

  “Our laws are clear. You can refuse illegal orders. You must refuse illegal orders... No one has to carry out orders that violate the law or our Constitution.” ([16:22] – [17:01])

• O’Keefe defends the lawmakers’ action:

  “You really do have an obligation to step up and be counted to understand exactly how this is going to be carried out.” ([20:17])

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4. International Fallout and America’s Eroding Leadership

[22:56 – 30:57]

• Wallace transitions to the international consequences of Trump’s posture with Rep. Jim Himes (Ranking Member, House Intelligence):

  “World leaders... sitting, this guy has his finger on a nuclear trigger...NATO is saying we can’t count on the U.S. anymore. For what right?” (Himes, [24:07])

• Himes emphasizes the incalculable diplomatic and economic costs of trashing America’s alliances “for nothing that we could not have gotten” by respectful negotiation.

• He criticizes the lack of Congressional oversight:

  “This Congress has not existed for a year. Ninety percent of my Republicans, there are occasional exceptions, are absolutely sound asleep.” ([29:23])

• Wallace calls out Republican double-speak, referencing what GOP leaders say privately about Trump versus their public capitulation ([30:06]).

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5. ICE Brutality and Press Suppression in Minneapolis

[33:38 – 39:55]

• Nicolle Wallace introduces photojournalist John Abernathy, who was assaulted by federal agents while documenting an ICE operation. He describes being:

  “…tackled, pinned face down, tear gassed, and pepper sprayed directly in the eye as he fell to the ground—feeling the knees of at least one federal agent on his back.” ([33:38])

• Abernathy explains why saving his camera and images was vital:

  “At that split second, I thought, I gotta get rid of it...I don’t know if I would have ever seen [the images] again...this country, the world needs to see what’s happening here.” ([36:30], [37:09])

• He claims targeted suppression by federal agents due to his documentation of their aggression:

  "They really show aggression that day. And that aggression was uncalled for, in my opinion." ([38:38])

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6. Firsthand Reporting from Minneapolis

[40:24 – 44:38]

• Jacob Soboroff (MSNBC correspondent) recounts violent tactics of federal agents:

  “A guy who just said he was a veteran of war in Afghanistan... said [Greg Bovino, ICE official] is driving around town like an Afghan warlord.” ([40:24])

• Soboroff describes agents’ indiscriminate detainments and ICE Watchers’ efforts to witness and publicize federal actions.

• Wallace and Soboroff note the ongoing unrest, community anger, and lack of information about those detained.

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7. Memorable Quotes and Moments

• “To even consider the idea of… the American military to train their weapons on allies is beyond the pale.”
  Nicolle Wallace ([02:46])

• “If you want the prime seat at the table, you might have to occasionally pay a little bit more than everybody else, but you get so much more for your dollar, and you can't be cheap about it... We don’t want to be the bully of the free world. We want to be the leader of the free world.”
  Adm. Baumgartner ([07:25])

• “This chilling effect risks silencing public dissent from those who served in uniform, a critical ingredient in American self governance.”
  (Wallace quoting amicus brief, [03:38])

• “NATO is saying we can’t count on the United States anymore. For what right?...We could have gotten anything we wanted in terms of basing rights... without this clown show.”
  Rep. Jim Himes ([24:07])

• “It is not nearly good enough to sell your integrity, your honor, and your principle. And yet that is what has happened here with almost half of my colleagues. The cheapness with which they gave up their sense of principle and honor just stuns me every single day.”
  Rep. Jim Himes ([30:33])

• “As ICE agents and border police moved in, it wasn't just a body they restrained. It was a perspective, a witness, a set of tools meant to show what power looks like up close.”
  John Abernathy ([34:59], quoted by Wallace)

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Timestamps for Notable Segments

• Trump's NATO comments and Wallace’s response: [01:04 – 05:36]
• Military defense of NATO: [05:36 – 09:49]
• Discussion of chilling effect on dissent: [09:49 – 20:17]
• Rep. Jim Himes on international fallout: [22:56 – 30:33]
• Photojournalist John Abernathy’s ICE assault account: [33:38 – 39:55]
• Jacob Soboroff reporting from Minneapolis: [40:24 – 44:38]

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Closing Thoughts

The episode weaves together the erosion of longstanding democratic norms, America’s declining international standing under Trump, and the chilling impact on public dissent—even among decorated military personnel. Through the eyes of both national leaders and those on the snowy streets of Minneapolis, Nicolle Wallace makes clear that the stakes for U.S. democracy, military integrity, and global leadership have never been higher.

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For listeners seeking a powerful, pressing account of how democratic institutions, the military, and civil society are responding to unprecedented pressures, this episode is an essential listen.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

The United States is treated very unfairly by NATO. I want to tell you that. And when you think about it, nobody can dispute it. We give so much and we get so little in return.

[C]

Hi there everybody. It's five o' clock now. In New York, a full and comprehensive fact check of everything Donald Trump said today in Davos, Switzerland, would almost certainly end with we now join the Last Word with Lawrence o' Donnell already in progress. But that particular comment from Donald Trump that the United States gets so little in return from NATO cannot be allowed to go unchallenged and uncorrected for all the reasons that statement is combative and humiliating and just plain wrong, one springs to mind immediately again and again. For the record, our NATO allies responded at the drop of a hat when the United states invoked Article 5 in the aftermath of the terrorist attack on 9 11. That includes Denmark, now the target of Donald Trump's smears and aggression from the Atlantic Quote Denmark is small, with a population of just 6 million, but it has tried to uphold its end of the bargain. It lost more soldiers per capita than the United States did in Afghanistan. In all, there were 43 deaths sacrificed that Danes accepted as the cost of their international obligations. Some of Donald Trump's rhetoric has suggested that the next time Article 5 is invoked, the United States might be the aggressor, the one saving grace. Today in Switzerland, Donald Trump suggested he would not use military force to acquire Greenland. Even if you believe him to even consider the idea of asking the men and women of the American military to train their weapons on allies is beyond the pale. It is no wonder. Those six lawmakers with backgrounds in the military and, and national security, including Congressman Jason Crow, who we just spoke with, released a video in November reminding the men and women of the military of their duty to refuse any illegal order. Although all six of those Democrats now say they've been contacted by Trump's Department of Justice or Pentagon as part of an investigation, one of them, Senator Mark Kelly, is also the target of the Defense Department. He is suing Pete Hegseth over the matter. And now a host of military voices are coming to Senator Kelly's defense. 41 of them, in fact, including retired four star generals, admirals and service secretaries from Democratic and Republican administrations. Those voices submitted a brief in federal court that reads in part, quote, in light of the gravity of the issues in this case and the potential implications for millions of active duty and retired members of the armed forces, the friends of the court believe it is their duty to share their perspective with the court. Notwithstanding a clear recognition that the views expressed herein and the mere fact of the submission of this brief may be viewed with disfavor by the Secretary, this decision is not made lightly. The attempt to punish Senator Kelly suggests that public expressions of disagreement with the secretary, even if made in good faith and supported factually, invite possible retaliation. Indeed, we are aware of many fellow veterans who would eagerly participate in public debate or on important and contested issues, but are declining to do so today, fearing official reprisal. This chilling effect risks silencing public dissent from those who served in uniform, a critical ingredient in American self governance dating back to those who fought for and won our independence. That is where we start today with Secretary Sean o'. Keefe. He's the former Secretary at the Navy. He served Under President George H.W. bush and the former NASA administrator he was. He served under President George W. Bush and Rear Admiral Bill Baumgartner. He's the former Commander of the 7th Coast Guard District and also served as Chief Counsel of the United States Coast Guard. He's now a member of the former Judge Advocates General, or JAGS Working Group. They are both part of this friend of the court filing in support of Senator Mark Kelly's lawsuit against the Pentagon over their threats to reduce his rank and pay. Thank you both so much for being here with me. It's an extraordinary day and I want to give you a chance, if you are moved, to respond to what the President said today about our NATO alliance and the relationship with Our allies. I'll start with you, Secretary o'. Keeffe.

[B]

Well, there's no question the NATO alliance for the better end of 80 years now has withstood the test of time to avoid really incredible conflict that has occurred and did occur with regularity over several hundred years prior to the end of World War II. And so, as a consequence of this, this is the strongest alliance that has been ever assembled in modern history, and one that has not only from a national security standpoint, but from an economic standpoint. Together, the United States and the European allies and our friends here in this hemisphere, the Canadians, has positively made for the most formidable capacity the world has seen. So the notion that we get nothing from this is a stretch because what we're enjoying right now, I think, is a extraordinary relationship throughout the course of, of history has not been so to diminish that, I think, would be a major mistake.

[C]

I'm a Baumgartner. Your thoughts about the idea that, quote, we get nothing from NATO?

[D]

I would respectfully disagree strongly with that, frankly. NATO has enabled us to claim the mantle of the leader of the free world, really, since the 1940s. And that is an extraordinary privilege. It has yielded extraordinarily extraordinary economic advantages on us, extraordinary diplomatic advantages, as well as the importance and the strength of NATO as the strongest military alliance really, in probably in the history of the world. And we only get that with NATO, and we've gotten that. We have had the prime seat to make decisions about the safety of the world since the NATO alliance was formed. And of course, if you want the prime seat at the table, you might have to occasionally pay a little bit more than everybody else, but you get so much more for your dollar, and you can't be cheap about it. You've got to admit that you're getting an advantage, that you're getting something of great value. And I haven't even gotten to the economic benefits that we get because we are in that position. It is so advantageous for world, for our trade, for the development of our financial instruments, our service economy, so many other things when you are in the position of the leader of the free world, and we don't want to give that up. We don't want to be the bully of the free world. We want to be the leader of the free world.

[B]

But.

[D]

And that requires some humility, that requires some give on these issues, and it requires magnanimity. I can't pronounce the word, but you know what I mean. Thank you.

[C]

Well, I mean, let me just follow up with you, Ameril? I mean, it requires three things that I don't think anybody, even people related to Donald Trump, think he has. So how does it survive the next three years?

[D]

Well, I'm in a position where I'm not going to comment on particular qualities of the president, I will presume, and be as optimistic as possible therein. We hope that we will see as a country the benefits and that we will start to amend our course. And if there are certain things that are done for gaming or for short term advantages in deal making, if we resolve those quickly and promptly and try to return to a leadership role rather than a driver or demander role, I think we can recover. But it's going to be a challenge and there are many capable people in this country and hopefully we rise to that challenge.

[C]

Secretary o', Keefe, let me turn to the friend of the court filing that you both signed and ask you about this part. Specifically, you all write that the group, quote, was aware of many fellow veterans who would eagerly participate in public debate on important and contested issues, but are declining to do so today, fearing official reprisal. Are those fears, can you describe those fears to us? Are they of reputational harm? Are they of the kind of punishment that Donald Trump and Pete Tegsa seem intent on carrying out for Senator Kelly, or are they fears of violence? Just tell us what you're talking about in terms of the fears that veterans feel from this administration.

[B]

Well, I think from a legal perspective, let me defer to my friend Admiral Baumgartner, who can speak to that in a far greater depth than I. But I think the central issue of this, and coming from the perspective of a former civilian leader of a military service, what I relied on with regularity in dealing with cases like this or issues that even rose to this kind of question was the central issue of this case, which I think can be summarized best by the comments of Senator Mark Kelly and his colleagues as veterans and as public servants in civilian capacities as well, reinforcing the obligation of public servants to follow the direction of leadership to implement lawful orders. Now, public servants, particularly military personnel, particularly military personnel, because of the Uniform Code of Military justice, that again, Admiral Baumgartner can speak to with greater depth. And I really speaks to the the, the question that public servants, particularly the military, rely on responsible leaders at every level to issue lawful orders. And in turn, leaders at every level need to clarify any ambiguity or risk the prospect the subordinates will act on another obligation that they have that is uniquely that of a public servant who resist unlawful orders during an operation, military can't risk the prospect that subordinates will misunderstand the proper conduct required and expected to carry out lawful orders. And that is the distinction they were drawing. And in many cases, because of the Uniform Code of Military justice and the standing law that every public servant is mindful of, that you must follow and pursue the conduct, the implementation of lawful orders means that you will forever be judged on the basis of your commentary and your view of exactly what constitutes those cases. And so it is a very fine line. But it's a special obligation that public servants carry, particularly those in uniform, to follow through in this manner and to do so in a way that they understand precisely why what they're being asked to do is lawful in prosecuting the national interest of the United States.

[C]

Abom Gardner Let me ask a dumb question then. Why would any administration punish someone saying something so plainly in the spirit of public service, don't do anything that's illegal?

[D]

I don't have a good answer for that. For me, that seems like a softball question or a softball thing to throw out there. I would have expected and certainly if somebody asked that question of me as a commander, I would have said, I'm glad you asked that question. I don't issue unlawful orders. Let me explain. And I don't want you in any confusion or mired in a morass of wondering whether something is lawful or not. Let me explain. Let me get that explanation out in front of you. And in many ways, I saw the video as an opening to come out and say, of course I don't. Of course there aren't any unlawful orders here. Here is why. Here's the legality, here's the explanation. So that would be my response to that. I don't know why. And I would have seen that as a great opening to come out there and demonstrate the case and put everybody's mind at ease. But we were still waiting for that explanation, certainly on the drug strikes and several other things.

[C]

Well, would one explanation be that they already knew, they already had the awareness, mentally, that there may be legal questions around orders that had already been issued? Admiral.

[D]

I mean, it can. I'm going to try not to speculate. And I'm also going to say I am a retired military officer, so I'm going to try to stick to what I see as policy and statements of law for some obvious reasons in the discussion that we're having right now. So I don't know, and I don't want to speculate. I'll leave that for others. To speculate. I can say that it's better, in my opinion, for loaders to be orders, to be clear, and you take advantage of any opportunities to explain the legality and reinforce and instill full confidence, the full confidence of your troops in what you're doing.

[C]

Let me then play the video that is simply telling the men and women of the military to ignore illegal orders that put all this in motion. That if they felt that they were only issuing legal orders, I'm not sure they'd have the FBI, the Department of justice, and the Pentagon investigating and seeking to prosecute the six lawmakers who made the video. So let me play that again.

[A]

We know you are under enormous stress.

[C]

And pressure right now. Americans trust their military, but that trust is at risk.

[E]

This administration is pitting our uniformed military and intelligence community professionals against American citizens like us. You all swore an oath to protect.

[A]

And defend this Constitution.

[F]

Right now, the threats to our Constitution aren't just coming from abroad, but from.

[D]

Right here at home.

[G]

Our laws are clear. You can refuse illegal orders.

[A]

You can refuse illegal orders.

[F]

You must refuse illegal orders.

[A]

No one has to carry out orders.

[C]

That violate the law or our Constitution.

[E]

We know this is hard and that.

[F]

It'S a difficult time to be a public servant.

[A]

But whether you're serving in the CIA.

[C]

The army or Navy, the Air Force.

[F]

Your vigilance is critical.

[A]

And know that we have your back.

[C]

Because now, more than ever, the American people need you. We need you to stand up for our laws.

[F]

We need our Constitution and who we are as Americans.

[C]

Don't give up.

[D]

Don't give up. Don't give up.

[F]

Don't give up the ship.

[C]

So I know you're both trying to walk a line and leave politics on the other side of it, but these six lawmakers crossed a line, in Donald Trump's view. He accused them of treason, a crime punishable by death. Why did he accuse them of treason, in your view, Secretary o', Keefe, that's.

[B]

Clearly a question they ask of President Trump. I wouldn't even presume to interpret what his. His arrival of whatever conclusions he's. That. I think what they really reiterated is the same thing that every military officer, and for that matter, every public servant, when you take the oath of office of what it is you're about to assume or the responsibilities you're to be handed, that you, in turn, have an obligation to be absolutely straightforward about carrying out the objectives of the order issued. You have to have the confidence that the senior leadership is issuing lawful orders. And I think as Admiral Bungar said very clearly, this is a situation where if there is any ambiguity, ask. And that's what these members of Congress were inviting, having been there, having done that, having been in those positions where if there was ever any question in their mind, they worked within a culture in which you could pose that question. Now, this doesn't invite a debating society over whether to take the Hill or not. That that's certainly not the condition at all. This is more of a case in which if there is any doubt in the mind of an individual, they have an obligation, and it's a peculiar, very serious one, that public servants have to carry that in no other walk of life can I think of anything that fits the same condition. And they need to be very clear about that. As a result, the enchantment, the performance of what it is you're asked to do, what you're directed to do by order, you're taking that you're assuming the confidence that there is, in fact, a lawful underpinning of exactly what I'm being told to go do. And they're saying, reminding that every one of them all took the oath that was explained at the time. It says you also have a responsibility. If that doesn't vet and make the or answer the question in your mind of whether that's the proper thing to do or not, you ought to raise it and be responsible for understanding precisely what authority you're acting on. You know, this is a straightforward proposition in that sense. And I think what they did was a public service to remind everybody, if you're, if you're concerned about that, you really do have an obligation to step up and be counted to understand exactly how this is going to be carried out.

[C]

Secretary Sean o' Keeffe for Immobil Baumgartner, thank you so much for having this conversation with us today. We are grateful to both of you. Coming up next for us when we come back, more fallout from Donald Trump's rambling mess of a speech at Davos today and what the world and the intelligence community is thinking right now about the country and its increasingly erratic leader. Democratic Congressman Jim Himes, ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee, will be our guest. Also ahead, we'll meet a photographer who has not only documented ice brutality on the streets of Minneapolis, he's also been the victim of it. His incredible efforts to save his camera and his photographs went viral. And he will join us to tell us what he has seen and endured as he bears witness to the heart and extreme cruelty of the Trump administration. DEADLINE White HOUSE continues. After a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

[B]

We had a good speech. We got great reviews. I can't believe it. We got good reviews in that speech. Usually they say he's a horrible dictator type person. I'm a dictator. But sometimes you need a dictator. But they didn't say that in this case. And no, it's common sense. It's all based on common sense.

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[C]

Proving to the world that he's not getting his news from the news, but someone who travels with him and wants something from him. Clearly, sure, whatever planet Trump lives on, he got great reviews for that thing he calls a speech today. And yes, sure, sometimes a dictator is good here on Earth1. There are serious questions over that speech today, over his fitness to be the commander in chief as he stood before world leaders and cameras and continued his relentless assault on NATO and campaign to acquire Greenland. Mistook Greenland for Iceland at least four times by our count. Denigrated our NATO allies and lobbed attacks on windmills as the bulwarks. Jonathan last writes of Trump's speech today. Quote Americans may try to calm themselves today by pretending that the big takeaway from Davos was that Trump ruled out an invasion of Greenland. I doubt the Europeans will be so silly they will not be able to unsee the spectacle at Davos. I want to bring in Democratic Congressman Jim Himes of Connecticut. He's the ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee. Congressman, your reaction to or your review, I guess in Trump parlance to Donald Trump's speech today?

[F]

I must be an outlier because I watched that and thought, oh my God, what are world leaders thinking as this guy confuses Greenland with Iceland, as he has to go back to the lie that he won the 2020 election and there's people in that room sitting, this guy has his finger on a nuclear trigger, you know, and he's empowered. And so, you know, it's tempting to sort of focus on that stuff, but, you know, my, my, as somebody who spends a lot of time on national security and foreign policy, for what, for what right? The Canadians are against us now. The Danes are terrified. NATO is saying we can't count on the United States anymore. For what right we could have, we could have gotten anything we wanted in terms of basing rights or mineral deals without this clown show of the last couple of weeks that has absolutely terrified the allies that we need standing with us against Russia and China. So again, it's tempting to sort of laugh at the clown show, but this, the consequences here are just profound and horrible for the United States.

[C]

Well, Mark Carney didn't sound afraid. I mean, is Mark Carney the new leader of the free world?

[F]

Look, you know, I'm sure the people around Donald Trump told him he gave the best speech ever. And it's been pretty sad for me to watch European leaders, you know, kowtow to this four year old, this angry four year old boy, and watch, you know, presidents of universities and law firms bend the knee because, oh my God, Donald Trump may target me. I'm actually glad to see Mark Carney in European saying, wait a minute, we have some dignity, we have some honor. We may be the only people on the planet standing for the old rules based order. So, you know, it's enormously painful for me because we used to be the decent country of integrity, of values. We used to be the leaders, now we're the laughing stock. And so God bless Mark Carney again. You know, my wife's Canadian. I never would have imagined that it would be the Canadians, you know, put up with so much from us, calling us out on the carpet.

[C]

I wonder how much has changed behind the scenes, I mean, I remember asking questions former leaders of Australia, ahead of the election, you know, wouldn't take intelligence sharing remain the same. I mean, how much has this fraying, which seems now like a complete rupture, that's what Carney called it, of our alliances has already happened. How much have the Allies baked in this lack of trust that was on full display in Davos into the sort of what used to be daily, without asking questions, sharing of assets and intelligence and trust, how much has that already impacted US national security?

[F]

You know, I think because we are so big economically and so powerful militarily, it's not something that we're going to see tomorrow morning. Right. It's something that we already see. You know, in my world, there are a number of countries who are being very careful about the intelligence they share in the Caribbean because they don't approve of what it is that we did in the Caribbean. You know, Europeans hold a lot of our treasury debt. What, what do you think? You think that German pension funds are going to say, you know, yeah, let's, let's, let's buy another $200 million of United States treasury debt? European companies are going to know that they can't rely on any trade deals because if the President wakes up with indigestion over a French meal he ate, he's going to put 25% tariffs on France. So, you know, this is going to be a slow bail build, but the consequences for us are going to be nothing but bad. You know, no one can tell me what we're getting out of this that we wouldn't have gotten if we'd said to the Danes, hey, we want to put four more Air Force bases and we want you to better patrol the coast of Greenland to make sure that Russian spy ships aren't there. We could have gotten a quick yes on that, but instead we sort of need to devastate our interests abroad and internationally in the pursuit of, again, the temper tantrum of a four year old boy.

[C]

Two things that he seems to have revealed this week, not just to our friends and allies, but our adversaries is one, one, that his ultimate sensitivity is the stock market and that if you can manipulate a reaction in the stock market, that will get his attention and he will respond. And two, his again, I don't know him enough to know if it's stunning ignorance or stunning capacity for lies, but he seems to think that Denmark is in charge of the Nobel Peace Prize. What do you think our adversaries are adjusting in terms of those big Reveals this week.

[F]

Yeah, I mean, you know, Vladimir Putin's had a really rough four years. He thought he would waltz into Ukraine in a matter of days and take the country over. Instead, Finland and Sweden joined NATO. Instead, he's lost untold hundreds of thousands of people. But now he has this gift. Now he has the most powerful man in the world, the President, United States, doing things that if he had four glasses of vodka and came up with the three best dreams he had, you know, let's, let's rupture NATO. Let's really piss off American allies, you know, he couldn't have dreamt of the achievements that he is getting for free from Donald Trump. And of course, the Chinese are doing what they always do. They're just like, you know, let the Americans go into Iraq. Let them do this stuff. Because everything the Americans do to themselves are something that simply improves our position as China on the globe.

[C]

And do Republicans seem to care?

[F]

You know, one of the problems here is that we're supposed to have checks and balances, right? This Congress has not existed for a year. 90% of my Republicans, there are occasional exceptions, are absolutely sound asleep. And they'll do this Lindsey Graham thing, you know, even though Lindsey Graham knows better of saying, oh, the President has persuaded me of how, how right he is. He is so right. No one has ever been more right than Donald Trump. And that is, unfortunately, the attitude that has been adapted by 95% of Republicans. And so, in fact, you heard Donald Trump say, sometimes you need a dictator. Today, the United States, because the Congress is asleep, because it is completely asleep, the United States has a dictator.

[C]

It's interesting, though, because Lindsey Graham denigrates Donald Trump when he's not in the room. Said if he believed aliens had impacted the 2020 election, he would believe it. J.D. vance called him, quote, America's Hitler. Mitch McConnell called him, quote, the worst human being I've met. The list goes on and on about what they'll say when he's not in the room. But you're right about what they do when he can hear them. Congressman Jim Himes on the state of affairs.

[F]

I've been doing this job for a little while. I've been doing this job for a little while, and it's a good job. It's a good job. It's a real honor. It's a privilege. You know, you get a staff to help you people pick you up at the airport. It's a good job. You, it is not nearly good enough to sell your integrity, your honor, and your principle. And yet that is what has happened here with almost half of my colleagues. The cheapness with which they gave up their sense of principle and honor just stuns me every single day.

[C]

Well, me too, because it's like they think we can't find the quotes that they give to people writing books. Or I guess they think that by the time the books come out, Trump will be gone because someone else dealt with him. Always great to talk to you. I appreciate your candor. I appreciate that we don't pretend things are anything other than what they are. Thank you, my friend. When we come back, the Minneapolis photographer who was tackled and pinned to the ground by federal agents and the extraordinary effort he made to save his camera and the photographs he'd taken of violence by ice. Photos he says the world needs to see. Right now. He's our guest. Next.

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In just a minute, we'll be joined by a photojournalist whose extraordinary images have captured on film, on camera, the brutality of ICE agents and what they're doing in Minneapolis. While another photograph captured the moment that he actually becomes part of the story, part of a target of it. This is John Abernathy. He had been documenting a protest outside the federal building in Minneapolis last week when he says federal officers tackled him, pinned him face down, tear gassed, and pepper sprayed him directly in the eye as he fell to the ground. Feeling the knees of at least one federal agent on his back. The journalist John Abernathy threw his camera to a fellow photographer who took this now viral shot and prevented federal officers from keeping the last photos that John had taken. Those photos of the moments just before he was tackled when, in his words, his world went dark. He also took photos of himself after he was tackled, of the bruises on his legs that he says show the aggression he witnessed and suffered and endured that day. These are his bruises. John says this quote, as ICE agents and border police moved in, it wasn't just a body they restrained. It was a perspective, a witness, a set of tools meant to show what power looks like up close. End quote. Joining me now, the aforementioned photojournalist, John Abernathy. Also joining us, senior national political reporter Jacob Soborough on the ground in Minneapolis. John, first tell me how you're doing.

[G]

Well, thank you for your answers. First of all, I'm doing good, relatively, to my experience, I guess, and much better than a lot of the families that are in this area.

[C]

Tell me why you were tackled.

[G]

Why I was tackled? I believe I was targeted. There were a lot of photojournalists there.

[B]

And earlier.

[G]

Let'S say, at one point, the agents came out. And then shortly after that. The timing to me is very interesting. Four, I think about four far right agitators showed up and they had flags and all four of them had bear spray in their hands. And at one time I, I got up close to them to take some photos and I noticed the, the canister was loose in his hand. So I snatched it out and threw it under a tree so it wouldn't be used on anybody. And then at the time I was tackled, when I was first on the ground, they started screaming at me, saying, we got you because we saw you bear spraying your people. I said, no, you didn't. And they said, yes, you did. So I feel that I was targeted because I blew their Plan by removing the bear spray from his hand.

[C]

On Instagram, you post this about saving. Saving your tool, saving your camera. Quote, people keep asking how I had the presence of mind to keep shooting, to throw the camera while being tear gassed, pepper sprayed and pinned under a pile of agents. I wasn't thinking about fear, not until the moment I thought I might pass out. I threw my Leica. That's how you say it, right? Leica. So the image wouldn't be lost, not just from my camera, but from the city, this community, this country, the world needs to see what's happening here. Too many images disappear into evidence lockers. I didn't want mine to talk a little bit more about that.

[G]

Well, at the moment, I thought I was going to pass out. It was a cloud of tear gas. And then I saw a hand come around, spray me right in the eye with the pepper spray. I felt like I only had a few minutes left and I was gonna pass out or something. I didn't know what was going to happen. So I threw my camera because I thought if I passed out and they hauled me in there, I don't know where my camera and my images would have ended up. I don't know if I would have ever seen him again. I don't know how long I would have been detained for. And at that split second, I thought, I gotta get rid of it. And I just looked up, I saw Pierre. I didn't know him at the time. And I just threw my camera. It landed a little bit in front of him. I saw him reaching for it. And then one of the shots has, there's two officers on my hand, that one right there. One's grabbing my phone and one's grabbing my arm. And I managed to get the phone loose and threw it. And then they. I saw a green boot land on top of it. And then I didn't see what happened after that. And Pierre said later that he was stomping on it and his hand went. When the boot went up, his hand went underneath and grabbed the phone. We're really grateful for that moment.

[C]

Why do you think they want to destroy these images that you've taken?

[G]

Well, they really show aggression that day. And that aggression was uncalled for, in my opinion. When I first showed up, there were no agents out on the street. It was just two cop cars with maybe four agents in the entryway to the parking lot of, of the Whipple Federal Building. And at some point it was maybe like a hundred agents come out. And that alone was a show of force and agitated the crowd. And then just a couple minutes later, the far right agitators showed up and the two of those really shifted things. And, and then when they started doing pushbacks, at one point, they threw a flashbang into the crowd. And I went over there to see what was happening. And right when I got there, I got shot twice by pepper bullets. And then I got out of there and it was, I feel it was just a show of force to intimidate and it wasn't called for. And there was, it wasn't a match of force with the protesters. They were not being violent or anything. They were just upset at what's going on right now and chanting and that kind of stuff.

[C]

John Abernathy, your photos tell an extraordinary story. I'm happy that they survived. Thank you very much for joining us to talk about all of this.

[G]

Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

[C]

When we come back, more of what John's describing, more of what he's captured with his own eyes and his own camera is happening. Searing images from Minneapolis from this afternoon. Our correspondent Jacob Sobro is there hoping us is reporting after a short break. We're back with my friend and colleague Jacob Severoff, who is outside the Whipple Federal Building. Jacob, what are you seeing?

[E]

Nicole, it's unbelievable what's happened on the ground here today. And even as the snow has picked up, the forces of Greg Bovine are out in a way that I think we're now used to seeing on the streets of Minneapolis. A guy who just said he was a veteran of war in Afghanistan walked by me and said he's driving around town like an Afghan warlord. He's never seen anything like it. And I want to show you some video of Greg Bevino. Earlier today, we rolled up on this scene in south Minneapolis moments after he was there himself personally throwing canisters of some type of chemical agent. Watch this.

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[E]

It's unbelievable, Nicole. This is what's happening on the streets of Minneapolis every single day. Earlier today, minutes before they were at this intersection in south Minneapolis, we rolled up on the aftermath of yet another apprehension by federal agents. They smashed the window of a driver of a vehicle, pulled that driver of the vehicle out of the car and left behind at the scene. When we arrived, we were dozens of ice watchers who are on the scene, as well as the purse of the person in the vehicle, the cell phone of the person, there's the Vehicle. I'm right there. And they left the car in the middle of the intersection, drove away and left everything behind. As you can see me here, it's confusing scene. There's very little information about what's going on, about why they're stopping anybody. It's the same indiscriminate types of stops that you and I have been talking about for the better part of six months right now. But it's unbelievable again, just like yesterday, that people continue to show up in these temperatures right now in this type of an atmosphere. They are furious. They remain furious. And with Vice President J.D. vance potentially arriving here as well tomorrow, rest assured, this is going to continue. This discontent, this anger, this frustration between the people of Minnesota and. And these federal agents, thousands of them who are here on the streets of Minneapolis.

[C]

Jacob, when it feels like 7 degrees there, so I don't want to keep you out there longer than I need to, but what was Greg Bovino throwing gas at? It looked like a peaceful protest. In the video that I saw.

[E]

Bingo. That's exactly what he was doing. And we have been in the vicinity of those people all day long. Originally, they surrounded the vehicles when they pulled into a gas station earlier today, and there was not an altercation. Then they went to that intersection where they smashed and grabbed the person out of the car. And this seems to be, if not the third stop explicitly, the third one that I know about today where, look, you see it right there, pushing back these people who consider themselves ICE watchers, civilians, citizens, people who have everyday jobs coming out to the streets of Minneapolis because they are insistent that ice gets out of Minnesota. And that is basically the altercation that you're watching play out on your screen right now. These are not professional protesters. These are people who have day jobs who are coming out away from their work, away from their schools, away from their families in order to stand up to the federal mass. Armed federal agents that are here against their wishes on the streets of Minnesota.

[C]

When you come back tomorrow, please bring us any reporting on what happened to the person. He was taken out of the car without their purse or their phone or. Do you know where that person is?

[E]

That's why we're here. Nicole, I remember when I talked to you in Charlotte and we had just been on the scene of a similar type of apprehension. They bring them, generally speaking, to the federal building, the Whipple Federal Building. Here is where Bevino gave that press conference yesterday, but it is also where people have been detained. So hoping to learn more here in just a little bit.

[C]

Okay. Stay warm and stay safe. I'm glad you're there. Jacob Sobroth. Thank you.

[D]

Thanks, my friend.

[C]

One more break. We'll be right back. My guest on this week's episode of the Best People podcast is literally the best at unpacking and telling the truth about exactly what is happening in the media world. Oliver Darcy has been on that beat his entire career. He is fearless. Take a listen to what he told me about watching the executive level capitulation in Trump 2.0.

[E]

The right thing to do is, I think, should be the moral compass of these companies, right?

[F]

Like what is the right thing to do? What will history look back on us and say, like that company, that executive, they stood tall and they did the right thing? When you go to bed at night, do you want to be the person that's flattering power or do you want.

[E]

To be the person that's a thorn.

[F]

In the side of power? And I think journalists should ask that.

[D]

Question, whether they're producers or whether they're.

[E]

Editors or whether they're star correspondents or anchors.

[F]

I think executives should ask that question and I think the owner should ask that question. And I don't think history is going to look kindly on the Mark Zuckerberg of the world or even Tim Cook.

[E]

I just think these are going to.

[F]

Be very embarrassing moments in history and people are going to be, what were those people thinking? What were they doing when it really mattered?

[C]

He names names. He tells the truth. It's a fascinating conversation. It's out now on YouTube. You can watch it by scanning the QR code on your screen. You can listen to it wherever you get your page, podcast. Make sure to let me know what you think on Instagram or Blue Sky. One more break. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes today. We are grateful.

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