Podcast Summary: "Beyond the Pale" – Deadline: White House

Host: Nicolle Wallace, MS NOW
Date: January 22, 2026

Overview

This episode of "Deadline: White House" focuses on the fallout from former President Donald Trump's combative rhetoric against NATO at the Davos World Economic Forum and his administration’s reported efforts to investigate and punish lawmakers who reminded U.S. military personnel to refuse illegal orders. Nicolle Wallace leads a deep discussion into the implications for American democracy, the integrity of the U.S. military, and the broader international order, with perspectives from former high-ranking military officials, lawmakers, and frontline journalists documenting ICE activities in Minneapolis.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Trump’s Davos Speech and the Assault on NATO

[01:04 – 05:36]

• Nicolle Wallace highlights Trump's claim:

  “The United States is treated very unfairly by NATO... We give so much and we get so little in return.” (Donald Trump, [01:04])

• Wallace challenges the accuracy, referencing Denmark’s sacrifices in Afghanistan and the bedrock Article 5 solidarity NATO has shown the U.S.

• She notes alarm over Trump’s rhetoric, including the chilling suggestion that the U.S. might one day turn its weapons on its allies:

  “To even consider the idea of asking the men and women of the American military to train their weapons on allies is beyond the pale.” (Nicolle Wallace, [02:46])

2. Defense of NATO: Voices from the Military

[05:36 – 09:49]

• Secretary Sean O’Keefe (former Secretary of the Navy):

  “This is the strongest alliance that has been ever assembled in modern history...The notion that we get nothing from this is a stretch because what we're enjoying right now...is an extraordinary relationship.” ([05:36])

• Rear Admiral Bill Baumgartner emphasizes the strategic, economic, and moral leadership the U.S. gains from NATO:

  “NATO has enabled us to claim the mantle of the leader of the free world...It is so advantageous for our trade, for the development of our financial instruments, our service economy...” ([06:57])

• Both stress the necessity of humility and magnanimity in global leadership.

3. Retaliation Against Lawmakers and the Chilling Effect on Dissent

[09:49 – 17:28]

• Discussion centers on the Pentagon’s investigation into six lawmakers, including Senator Mark Kelly, after they reminded active military to refuse illegal orders.

• O’Keefe underscores the unique obligation of service members to obey lawful—not illegal—orders:

  “Public servants...rely on responsible leaders...to issue lawful orders...and in turn, leaders at every level need to clarify any ambiguity...” ([10:35])

• Admiral Baumgartner rebuts the idea that such a reminder could be treason:

  “If somebody asked that question of me as a commander, I would have said, I'm glad you asked that question. I don't issue unlawful orders...” ([13:42])

• Wallace plays the lawmakers’ video:

  “Our laws are clear. You can refuse illegal orders. You must refuse illegal orders... No one has to carry out orders that violate the law or our Constitution.” ([16:22] – [17:01])

• O’Keefe defends the lawmakers’ action:

  “You really do have an obligation to step up and be counted to understand exactly how this is going to be carried out.” ([20:17])

4. International Fallout and America’s Eroding Leadership

[22:56 – 30:57]

• Wallace transitions to the international consequences of Trump’s posture with Rep. Jim Himes (Ranking Member, House Intelligence):

  “World leaders... sitting, this guy has his finger on a nuclear trigger...NATO is saying we can’t count on the U.S. anymore. For what right?” (Himes, [24:07])

• Himes emphasizes the incalculable diplomatic and economic costs of trashing America’s alliances “for nothing that we could not have gotten” by respectful negotiation.

• He criticizes the lack of Congressional oversight:

  “This Congress has not existed for a year. Ninety percent of my Republicans, there are occasional exceptions, are absolutely sound asleep.” ([29:23])

• Wallace calls out Republican double-speak, referencing what GOP leaders say privately about Trump versus their public capitulation ([30:06]).

5. ICE Brutality and Press Suppression in Minneapolis

[33:38 – 39:55]

• Nicolle Wallace introduces photojournalist John Abernathy, who was assaulted by federal agents while documenting an ICE operation. He describes being:

  “…tackled, pinned face down, tear gassed, and pepper sprayed directly in the eye as he fell to the ground—feeling the knees of at least one federal agent on his back.” ([33:38])

• Abernathy explains why saving his camera and images was vital:

  “At that split second, I thought, I gotta get rid of it...I don’t know if I would have ever seen [the images] again...this country, the world needs to see what’s happening here.” ([36:30], [37:09])

• He claims targeted suppression by federal agents due to his documentation of their aggression:

  "They really show aggression that day. And that aggression was uncalled for, in my opinion." ([38:38])

6. Firsthand Reporting from Minneapolis

[40:24 – 44:38]

• Jacob Soboroff (MSNBC correspondent) recounts violent tactics of federal agents:

  “A guy who just said he was a veteran of war in Afghanistan... said [Greg Bovino, ICE official] is driving around town like an Afghan warlord.” ([40:24])

• Soboroff describes agents’ indiscriminate detainments and ICE Watchers’ efforts to witness and publicize federal actions.

• Wallace and Soboroff note the ongoing unrest, community anger, and lack of information about those detained.

7. Memorable Quotes and Moments

• “To even consider the idea of… the American military to train their weapons on allies is beyond the pale.”
  Nicolle Wallace ([02:46])

• “If you want the prime seat at the table, you might have to occasionally pay a little bit more than everybody else, but you get so much more for your dollar, and you can't be cheap about it... We don’t want to be the bully of the free world. We want to be the leader of the free world.”
  Adm. Baumgartner ([07:25])

• “This chilling effect risks silencing public dissent from those who served in uniform, a critical ingredient in American self governance.”
  (Wallace quoting amicus brief, [03:38])

• “NATO is saying we can’t count on the United States anymore. For what right?...We could have gotten anything we wanted in terms of basing rights... without this clown show.”
  Rep. Jim Himes ([24:07])

• “It is not nearly good enough to sell your integrity, your honor, and your principle. And yet that is what has happened here with almost half of my colleagues. The cheapness with which they gave up their sense of principle and honor just stuns me every single day.”
  Rep. Jim Himes ([30:33])

• “As ICE agents and border police moved in, it wasn't just a body they restrained. It was a perspective, a witness, a set of tools meant to show what power looks like up close.”
  John Abernathy ([34:59], quoted by Wallace)

Timestamps for Notable Segments

• Trump's NATO comments and Wallace’s response: [01:04 – 05:36]
• Military defense of NATO: [05:36 – 09:49]
• Discussion of chilling effect on dissent: [09:49 – 20:17]
• Rep. Jim Himes on international fallout: [22:56 – 30:33]
• Photojournalist John Abernathy’s ICE assault account: [33:38 – 39:55]
• Jacob Soboroff reporting from Minneapolis: [40:24 – 44:38]

Closing Thoughts

The episode weaves together the erosion of longstanding democratic norms, America’s declining international standing under Trump, and the chilling impact on public dissent—even among decorated military personnel. Through the eyes of both national leaders and those on the snowy streets of Minneapolis, Nicolle Wallace makes clear that the stakes for U.S. democracy, military integrity, and global leadership have never been higher.

For listeners seeking a powerful, pressing account of how democratic institutions, the military, and civil society are responding to unprecedented pressures, this episode is an essential listen.