← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
“Boots on the ground”
00:43:20
Nicolle Wallace covers Donald Trump’s decision to deploy the National Guard in Washington D.C. and Trump’s pick for the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
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- [00:00]
Nicole Wallace
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David French
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Nicole Wallace
Jump into summer@chumbacasino.com and score your free welcome bonus. 2 million free gold coins and 2 free sweeps coins. No purchase necessary. VGW Group void where prohibited by law. CTNC is 21 + sponsored by Chumba Casino hi there everybody. It's 4 o' clock in the east. It's a shock. Just to say it out loud, there are boots on the ground in the streets of our nation's capital this afternoon. Today. National Guard troops arrived earlier today acting on orders from their commander in chief to execute a takeover of Washington, D.C. 's police department in order to fight crime, which data suggests is at its lowest in decades and we should point out, which hasn't been done in the past to solve crime or anything else. Earlier, Mayor Muriel Bowser met with Attorney General Pam Bondi, along with several top Justice Department officials about how to actually implement Trump's new directive as protests have erupted across Washington, D.C. and while administration officials maintain that Donald Trump's decision to federalize D.C. s police force is entirely legal, there are clear and obvious questions and concerns about what happens next. More specifically, what if this is just the beginning? On that topic, the Washington Post today, citing internal Pentagon documents, published exclusive new reporting into a plan that would formalize a so called military reaction force for deployment in instances of civil unrest. Quote, the plan calls for 600 troops to be on standby at all times so they can deploy in as little as one hour. The documents say they would be split into two groups of 300 and stationed at military bases in Alabama and Arizona with purview of regions east and west of the Mississippi river respectively. Remember, Donald Trump's military takeover of Washington is just the latest instance of the ways in which Trump has directed the military to take action on American soil against Americans. From the New York Times, quote, already this year, Trump has deployed some 10,000 active duty troops to the southwest US border to choke off the flow of drugs, as well as migrants and 4,700 National Guard troops and Marines to Los Angeles to help quell protests that had erupted over immigration raids and to protect the federal agents conducting them all. But about 250 of those national Guard troops have since been withdrawn. Now there will be 800 National Guard troops on the streets of Washington, D.C. for the foreseeable future. We don't really know how long they'll be there, but we cannot say that we weren't warned. Remember when what General John Kelly told the New York Times in an interview before the November election?
- [03:21]
David French
And I think this issue of using the military to go after American citizens is one of those things I think is a very, very bad thing, even to say it for political purposes to get elected. I think it's a very, very bad thing, let alone actually doing it. When I was in the White House, for that matter, dhs, I was, you know, originally conversation would be, you know, Mr. President, that's outside your authority or, you know, that, you know, that's a routine use. You really don't want to do that inside the United States.
- [04:01]
General Mark Hertling
But now that he's talking about it.
- [04:03]
David French
As I'm going to do it is again, it's disturbing.
- [04:09]
Nicole Wallace
And it wasn't just John Kelly. There was Mark Esper, Donald Trump's former defense secretary. Those wondering just how bad could it get should remember what Esper, Trump's former defense secretary, said about Trump's focus in the immediate aftermath of the George Floyd protests.
- [04:28]
Secretary Frank Kendall
What specifically was he suggesting that the.
- [04:31]
Nicole Wallace
US Military should do to these protesters?
- [04:35]
David French
He says, can't you just shoot them? Just shoot them in the legs or something? And he's suggesting that that's what we should do, that we should bring in the troops and shoot the protesters.
- [04:44]
Secretary Frank Kendall
The commander in chief was suggesting that.
- [04:47]
Nicole Wallace
The US Military shoot protesters.
- [04:51]
General John Kelly
Yes.
- [04:51]
David French
In the straits of our nation's capital. That's right. Shocking.
- [04:58]
Nicole Wallace
Shocking is where we start today with some of our favorite experts and friends. Former secretary of the Air Force, a senior fellow at the center for American Progress, Secretary Frank Kendall is here. Also joining us, retired US Army Lieutenant General Mark Hertling is here. Also joining us, opinion columnist for the New York Times, David French is here. So, Secretary Kendall, let me start with you and let me show you one more voice from Trump 1.0. This is former chairman of the Joint Chiefs Mark Milley talking about the regret he felt for being a uniform military leader and being dragged into politics in 1.0. This is after he appeared in Lafayette Square when I walked from the White House to outside with President Trump toward.
- [05:45]
General Mark Hertling
What is a political event.
- [05:46]
Nicole Wallace
Look, President Trump could do whatever he wants to do. He's a politician. But I'm not.
- [05:50]
General Mark Hertling
And because I went out there in that uniform, that was a terrible moment for the United States military, and it gave the perception of politicization. It wasn't intentional.
- [05:59]
General John Kelly
It was done by accident on my part.
- [06:00]
General Mark Hertling
As soon as I realized it was.
- [06:01]
Nicole Wallace
A political event, I walked away from it. So I guess I bring back the voices of General Kelly and Mark Esper and Mark Milley. General Mark Milley. To make clear that we were warned. We were warned as a country, as a public, as a media, of what Trump wanted to do with the military. But now that he's doing it. If you could just tell us what made those men issue these very rare warnings to the country about what it would mean to put the American military on the streets of American cities and potentially use them against Americans.
- [06:37]
General John Kelly
Yeah, I know General Milley and Secretary Esper very well. I've had conversations with both of them about some of these things. What we're seeing essentially is the military used for what, in this case, at least, I think is a political stunt. They're used as props, basically, to try to reinforce the messaging that the president is trying to put out. And that's very dangerous. And I think the American people are being conditioned to the president calling up the National Guard in particular, but the military to whatever goal he might have domestically and for political purposes. And I think it's very dangerous for our country.
- [07:13]
Nicole Wallace
What, what Secretary Kendall recourses do people have? I mean, it's clear that everything that the president can do and more, he will do what is an appropriate response from the public.
- [07:29]
General John Kelly
I think we have to let people know how we feel about this. I think we have to, you know, there has to be a response, and I think we'll see that that makes the situation more dangerous. Unfortunately, the people that are going to be on the streets here in D.C. are not trained in the type of work they're going to be asked to do. They're not trained very effectively to do police work. Certainly they may have some training in crowd control and so on, but it's going to create a dangerous situation. But I think every one of us as citizens has the right to speak out, let our members of Congress know, and make it clear that this is not the America that we want to see, one in which there are uniformed people, military people on our streets carrying weap particularly one that's counterproductive in many cases and not justified by the so called emergency that the President has declared.
- [08:15]
Nicole Wallace
General Hertling, I remember when troops were deployed, not just National Guard, but active duty Marines to the streets of Los Angeles a couple months ago. We're living in dog years. It feels like 11 years ago, but it was a couple months ago. And a former senior military official said to me, it's, it's wrong for all these reasons, right? It's not what we look like, it's not what we look like to our friends and enemies around the world. But it's also wrong in terms of not just the training that you receive in the military, but the DNA of who joins the military. This person explained to me that you joined the military to go defend your country on a battlefield typically far, far away, and that to be turned on your neighbors and friends in your own towns and cities is not at all what the military trains men and women for. Do you agree with that and your thoughts on where we are today?
- [09:07]
General Mark Hertling
Yeah, I most certainly do, Nicole. And here's the thing about the National Guard. Let's talk about them for just a second. I was an active army officer, but the National Guard is different. Army officers deploy, go to other countries, do the things we're asked to do in combat. Primarily, the Guard has a much more difficult mission, truthfully, because they also go to combat when asked to and when federalized. But they also do things like conduct humanitarian relief. They also do things, which is what we are seeing them do right now, and I'll caveat that in a minute, of providing military support to civilian authorities when manpower is needed by other civilian authorities, the Department of Homeland Security, this, you know, whoever name, name that tomb, they ask for military personnel to do that, usually the Guard. But truthfully, when they are asked to do that, they're given a mission. And that mission normally has a task and a purpose. And in this case, as Secretary Kendall just said, I personally can't see what the mission is right now because right now there's no indication that they're protecting buildings or putting up concertina wire or, you know, doing administrative tasks so the rest of the police force can get in the field and do what they're supposed to do. I don't know what they're going to do. So until we get what their mission is, what their tasks are and how they see their purpose in contributing this, I have to agree with Secretary Kendall and say this is a political stunt and it's used for intimidation. I mean, I watched Secretary Hegseth on a news program last night Talking around the fact that guardsmen, when they're on the ground, certainly can use force if they're threatened. But he was couching it in the view that, oh, yes, they're going to use force, potentially, you know, if they're threatened, they're going to use force. So the only thing I can see is that this is a potential in case there are riots to then deploy the National Guard to provide that civilian support, to provide crowd control. But none of that's happening right now. To say that the Guard is being deployed to conduct police action, that's, as Secretary Kendall just said, is not what they do. I mean, even military police will not do that in a civilian environment. They are spent to do it on a base in combat, someone else like that. And in fact, it's against the law for them to do it. Unless. Unless the president declares an insurrection act, which usually comes about when there's an insurrection. I don't see anything like an insurrection right now going on in Washington, D.C.
- [11:55]
Nicole Wallace
Well, or when there is an insurrection and it isn't. I mean, how do youi mean, it's clear that there's no one like General Kelly or Mark Esper or Mark Milley around Donald Trump anymore. And I wonder, General Hertling, what your thoughts are about what else Trump will do with the military without men like Mattis and Millie and Kelly and Esper around him.
- [12:21]
General Mark Hertling
Well, I still know a lot of people who are serving, and they are good, true human beings. They know that they cannot commit illegal acts. That's part of the credo of the US Military. You don't conduct an illegal operation and you don't obey illegal orders. The thing that concerns me, truthfully, Nicole, is the fact that I've seen Secretary Hegseth on the podium with President Trump. I have not seen General Kaine. And they have equal voices in terms of providing advice to the President of the United States. In all of the photos that we've been seeing with all the characters on that press stand yesterday, they had everybody but the military person to provide that military advice and consent in terms of what we were trying to do. And we know that Secretary Hegseth has fired all the lawyers and he's fired all the inspector generals. So who are the ones that are holding these folks accountable to the orders that they might give or they might anticipate giving? That's my concern right now.
- [13:26]
Nicole Wallace
Well, and because he hasn't been heard from, let me play what his predecessor, General Milley, said about the law and the Constitution for you, David French.
- [13:41]
Claire McCaskill
We in uniform are unique.
- [13:43]
General Mark Hertling
We are unique among the world's armies.
- [13:46]
Nicole Wallace
We are unique among the world's military. We don't take an oath to a country. We don't take an oath to a tribe. We don't take an oath to a religion. We don't take an oath to a king or a queen or a tyrant or a dictator. We don't take an oath to a wannabe dictator.
- [14:08]
General Mark Hertling
We don't take an oath to an individual.
- [14:10]
Nicole Wallace
We take an oath to the Constitution and we take an oath to the idea that it's America and we're willing to die to protect it. Again, we don't know what General Kaine would say, but that is at least what his predecessor said near the end of his time. David French, your thoughts on this moment. That again, some pretty great and honorable men warned us was ahead and was in Trump's mind and was Trump's intention in the first term. But here we are a little over six months into his second. Oh, David French, you're muted. We need you to stop and unmute.
- [14:48]
Claire McCaskill
Oh, sorry.
- [14:48]
Nicole Wallace
We start over.
- [14:51]
Claire McCaskill
General Milley said was spot on. Was exactly correct. And by the way, that's one of the reasons why the United States military is why so widely respected in the United States. It's one of the few institutions remaining in the United States that that is respected across the political spectrum. It's because of this nonpartisan constitutional role that it has. And here's one thing that concerns me on top of what has already been said is this is dangerous for the military, for that respect that the military enjoys if a president is seen to command it, to wield against his political opponents and political enemies. He is obviously very angry at blue state, blue leadership, and he wants to exert a firm hand against Democratic leadership. And if he pulls the military into this project, it's going to alienate people. It's going to be terrible for the United States military in addition to being terrible for the Constitution, in addition to being dangerous. Because what you're doing is you're bringing people in to execute missions, as was just said, that they've not been trained for. Look, crime in Washington, D.C. though improving, is still unacceptable. But there are means and methods of dealing with crime in Washington, D.C. that do not involve bringing in the National Guard. We have seen many cities execute remarkable turnarounds in the crime rate. Baltimore, down the street, remarkable turnaround in crime rates without bringing in boots on the ground and a performative, dangerous fashion. So you can say on the one hand, crime in D.C. is too high Something has to be done. But the answer is not bringing in boots on the ground, bringing people who have not been trained for this mission and who, by the way, don't have the proper legal authorities to truly execute a law enforcement mission. And so this is has a potential to be both ineffective and dangerous at the same time.
- [16:52]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, David French, to your point about crime, crime is a powerful political issue. But Donald Trump has freed more violent criminals in a shorter amount of time than any American president in our country's history. I mean, he freed and pardoned and commuted the sentences of men and I think a few women who beat cops. So this is not a person who's centered around crime. D.C. i agree with you. Any amount of crime, one is on a acceptable for the people who live there, and two is a powerful political argument and tool. But there's a lot of crime in Houston and there's a lot of crime in Memphis. I mean, there's crime in states run by Republican governors where Donald Trump, if he really wanted to do this, would be doing it more unilaterally. Where do you think we are in our politics where Trump doesn't even try to pretend that this is about the thing that he said it was about?
- [17:52]
Claire McCaskill
Well, I think you have to understand and look at through this prism, Donald Trump is not tough on crime. I mean, the January 6th pardons alone can tell you a lot about that. He's very tough on his opponents, people he believes are his opponents. And so look, why would he be in Washington, D.C. and not in cities that are controlled in red states with red governors that might have much higher crime rates? Well, you know, I think we can know the answer to that. He sees the leadership of Washington, D.C. as his enemy. So he's very tough on his enemies. That's a different thing from saying he's tough on crime. And when you are tough on crime, as opposed to tough on your enemies, you're going to go for the means and the methods that are most lawfully effective, not most performative. Troops on boots on the ground is more performative. And so this is what we're seeing. This is tough on enemies, not so much tough on crime. And the reality is we need targeted, concentrated, lawful means to deal with crime, not with our political opponents.
- [18:56]
Nicole Wallace
It's such a good point. I mean, if you really wanted to deal with crime, you would have the FBI agents that are acting as immigration officials working on crime. I mean, it's all upside down and backward. But it's important to point out that that's not the objective at all. It is a crackdown on his perceived political enemies. As you say, I need all of you to stick around. I have to sneak in a break. But still ahead for of us, some of Trump's most outspoken MAGA supporters finally getting what they want. A numbers guy who can be easily intimidated by a presidential social media post. Trump's pick to lead the Bureau of Labor Statistics is raising a lot of alarms today on the credibility of economic data and statistics that we will have to work with moving forward. And later in the broadcast, another Republican back home for summer recess, bombarded with very, very, very unhappy and angry and vocal constituents over the direction Donald Trump is taking the Republican Party and the country. We'll have all those stories and more on this one. On the other side of a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
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- [21:13]
General Mark Hertling
Kind of a crisis of disorder in D.C. is a made up phony story to distract attention from deteriorating economy from the ice rage which horrify even people who wanted action on immigration. And of course from the Epstein files. It's all a game of diversion. I think this is administration would like to take over not only D.C. but.
- [21:39]
Nicole Wallace
Any state or jurisdiction that doesn't completely bend the knee. That was a very savvy protester speaking to NBC News holding His resist sign this morning in Washington, D.C. we're back with Secretary Kendall, General Hertling, and David French of the New York Times. Secretary Kendall, let me start with you and, and ask you about the psychology of this move. I mean, I think all four of us have had conversations that have touched on the authoritarian moves and the degree to which Trump is puppeting them, parroting them or mirroring them. Clearly, there are plenty of examples where militarizing a city, especially a capital, is meant to chill the confidence or the security that protesters feel. There are protests planned again this weekend. There was no King's Day. There are protests in deep red parts of the country. Members of Congress are being met with protests from some of their own voters and their own constituents. Without being alarmist, I mean, can you just pull the thread, Secretary Kendall, on, on how far Trump could take this if that Washington Post reporting and the strike teams are really being put into place?
- [22:50]
General John Kelly
Nicole, that's the core question here. And I have been alarmed. I think alarmist is not unreasonable at this point in time. Anybody watch what President Trump did to try to overturn the 2020 election? If you look at what he did to incite a riot, if you look at what he did to sit silently by. He didn't call out the National Guard for hours while the Capitol was being attacked. I don't think there was any boundary on what this person is capable of doing. You heard Secretary Esper earlier talk about willingness to shoot protesters. I think we need to be very concerned about the pattern we're seeing here. And I think, quite frankly, the American people are being conditioned to accept the president's use of the military the way he is here in Washington now. And I think we're going to see a lot more of this over the next three and a half years.
- [23:37]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, General, just keep the other half of the equation in focus for us. What does that mean for the men and women of the military?
- [23:44]
General Mark Hertling
Yeah, I'm glad you asked that, Nicole, because that's an important point. The secretary just talked about the psychology of the people seeing it. I'm going to talk about the psychology of the soldiers, the face of the soldiers that are there. Some of these young people. I don't know the numbers. I've heard 600 are being deployed to the D.C. area. But of that 600, you're going to have all sorts of political persuasions in that group, because the great thing about our military is they recruit from the citizens of our country. So they're going to be pro Trump, anti Trump. Some of Them may have been working in federal government and laid off by dogecoin. So they're going to be a little bit pissed off. There are going to be some who have to leave their other jobs, they're going to be a little bit pissed off. And there are going to be some who are going to be asked to do things. If they are asked to do things that know that they're not right, the leaders can stand before them and say, hey, that's an illegal order, we can't do that. But when you put an 18 or 20 year old caught between hearing someone say this is what you're supposed to do and their commander saying, no, no, no, that's an illegal order, you put people in very bad positions, especially when it has to do with what Secretary Esper talked about, shooting their fellow citizens in the legs. I got to tell you, there's no soldiers that I have ever worked with that would actually do that. They think that's crazy. So the combination of all those psychological factors plus the point, I mean, I just looked at the temperature in D.C. it's 89 degrees right now with 70% humidity. That's a great look when you put a bunch of soldiers in kit and helmet standing around doing nothing and a mission that they really don't know what it's all about. So combining all of those factors, much like you did in Los Angeles with a little bit cooler temperatures, the surveys from those National Guard units and the Marines that came out of Los Angeles was what the hell were we doing here? This was a couple of weeks away from families and homes doing a mission we didn't really understand for what, what was the task and purpose that I'll go back to. All of those things are part of the considerations that I would have as a commander if I were asked to take soldiers onto this so called battlefield.
- [25:57]
Nicole Wallace
David French so much of what we know about Trump's plans or the lack of any limits to get straight at what everyone's talking about. We know from some of the great reporting from the first term that he wanted Border Patrol to shoot people and he promised to pardon, I think from Annie Carney in the New York Times in 2017 that he got himself involved in the military justice system, reach deep inside and get over the objections of Secretary Esper at the urging of Pete Hagseth who was a morning weekend cable news host. He is very willing to pull the levers both of justice and clemency for people who break the law. So I wonder how confident you are that the Constitution and the Rule of law will hold with Trump in command of the military on the streets of American cities.
- [26:48]
Claire McCaskill
Well, I'm not as confident over the short term as I am confident over the medium term to long term. Look, as the Secretary and General Hartling know, the army is deeply inculcated with these constitutional values there. This is imprinted into the military's DNA. So the military has a lot of institutional resistance to just being pulled into and becoming a political actor. But that doesn't mean that in the short term, when you're ordering these young soldiers into the streets and when you're ordering them into maybe more cities, cities that Donald Trump doesn't like, in states run by Democrats, that you couldn't have a short term breakdown. At best, we're looking at these soldiers often just spending a week or two or three weeks of their lives kind of as a symbolic presence, just sort of standing there without a clear mission, without a clear purpose. That is often best case scenario. At worst, you could have a provocative, dangerous situation that results in a tragic incident. That's the worst case scenario. I do think over the longer term, the military's DNA will protect it from the remainder of the Trump presidency. But that doesn't mean that we're not in a dangerous moment. We can trust the military a lot, but if the commander in chief is not trustworthy, that creates deep, deep tension. And I think that is what we're dealing with now.
- [28:11]
Nicole Wallace
You know, Pete Hegseth, I think, is the first Secretary of Defense candidate to be opposed by members of both political parties. We have in him someone who Democrats and Republicans thought was unsuitable. We have Republicans who are veterans in the Senate and in the House. I mean, why do you, why do any of you think that people stay quiet when this is, again, best case scenario, incredibly risky for the men and women of the military? General Hartling, I'll let you go first.
- [28:44]
General Mark Hertling
Yeah, I can't answer that, Nicole. I really can't. I don't understand why there, why those who understand or should understand better, who have served in the military aren't speaking up because they know better. But then again, it gets to the other subjects that people haven't spoken up about either. I just, I'm at a loss for words to explain the lack of spine and courage. Because I'll relay this, the value of personal courage is one of the seven army values. And it just doesn't mean personal courage on the battlefield and throwing yourself on a grenade. It means speaking up when you know what right looks like and someone is doing a lot of Things wrong. And when we see leaders violating this trust that David just talked about, that's when you speak up and you pull people aside and say, hey, look, you know, the folks that you're asking to follow you don't really want to follow you, because they don't see the purpose in what you're asking them to do. And even if there's other politicians who are saying, oh, yeah, this is great, let's do this debate with me. Tell me why you're out there. Because I don't understand it. Police officers are the ones that are supposed to be protecting the society. Soldiers are the ones that are going to war on behalf of the nation. It makes no sense to me, and I don't understand why people don't speak up.
- [30:12]
Nicole Wallace
It'll remain. Oh, go ahead.
- [30:15]
General John Kelly
I've written a piece about this. The administration has created a climate of fear in this country unlike anything I've ever seen. That's true in the military. It's true in a lot of institutions in our society. The president is abusing the power of his office using whatever means he has to create fear and intimidate people and coerce people. You see it with legal law firms, you see it with universities. You see it with business. You see it in everything he does. And people are afraid. They're worried about their incomes. They're worried about the kind of reaction their families will have and what will happen to them on social media and so on. There's a climate of fear in this country that I have never seen before, and that includes in our military. A lot of people in our military, I think, are just keeping their heads down right now and hoping to survive through all of this. It's not a good environment for us to be operating in, and the only way we're going to effectively fight it is if people do have the courage to speak up and say that this is unacceptable and has to stop.
- [31:11]
Nicole Wallace
David French, I guess I'll leave it on. A question for you about our politics. I mean, you've got, what, 66% of the country that opposes Donald Trump's economic policies. You've now got 63% of Americans that oppose Donald Trump's immigration policies. I think 70% of Americans, last time they were asked, oppose active duty military on the streets of American cities. The number used to be even higher than that. Trump has made some progress in normalizing even the possibility of that. Why do you think that the opposition political party isn't front and center every single day, speaking up for the military, speaking up for the universities speaking up for the law firms that have been bullied in a more sort of message, cohesive way that really captures the country's attention.
- [32:02]
Claire McCaskill
Yeah, it's a great question. I think one of the issues is inherent in the question itself. So speaking up for universities, a lot of Americans are very upset with universities. So it's not so much defending the universities as protecting the rule of law. Yes, universities need reform, but they don't need to be censored, repressed. And so that's what the issue is. So many times Trump is attacking a real problem in a lawless way. So you have to attack the lawlessness without so much defending the deeply flawed institution. And that's a really, really hard thing to do.
- [32:39]
Nicole Wallace
Secretary Frank Kendall, Lieutenant General Mark Ertling, David French, it's an honor to have all of you here in one place at one time On ONE SIDE story. Thank you very much for shedding light on it and spending time with us today.
- [32:50]
General John Kelly
Thank you, Nicole.
- [32:51]
General Mark Hertling
Thank you.
- [32:53]
Nicole Wallace
Coming up next for us, Steve Bannon wins one, publicly pushing for the man right there, a MAGA Republican and Trump loyalist with zero faith in the country's economic data. He will now come in and lead the agency tasked with putting out, you guessed it, economic data. We'll bring you that story next. Summer's heating up and so is the action with chumba casino and 2311 racing. Whether you're trackside with Bubba, Riley and Tyler or cooling off at home, the fun never stops at Chumba Casino, the online social casino packed with free to.
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- [33:47]
Secretary Frank Kendall
One thing I've learned is that you.
- [33:49]
Nicole Wallace
Buy a house, but you make it a home. And for decades, Angie's helped millions of homeowners hire skilled pros for the projects that matter. Get all your jobs done well@angie.com your life isn't one size fits all.
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Secretary Frank Kendall
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Nicole Wallace
Show up feeling comfortable, confident and completely you. Our over 800 stylists are here to help you look your best. From tried and true denim to head turning looks, we've got styles that fit your life and your budget. Fashion made for real life moments. Maurices. Donald Trump has nominated EJ And Tony, as the new commissioner of the Bureau of Labor Statistics. He will replace Erica McIntyre, who Trump fired after his ego was unable to stomach a weaker than expected jobs report on August 1st. Antoni is currently the chief economist at the conservative Heritage Foundation. He's been a longtime critic of the Bureau of Labor Statistics. According to the Wall Street Journal, former White House chief strategist Steve Bannon advocated for Trump to have a MAGA ally like Antoni running this agency. And Tony himself was on Steve Bannon show calling for McInterfer's firing. Take a listen to the victory lap he took moments after that firing took place.
- [35:15]
General Mark Hertling
The president shortly thereafter terminated the head.
- [35:19]
Nicole Wallace
Put it in perspective.
- [35:20]
Claire McCaskill
Where are we, sir?
- [35:23]
General Mark Hertling
Well, Steve, I think we're certainly in a better place. And what Today demonstrates is just how powerful this show and its audience is, quite frankly, and also the fact that the President is among the audience, clearly, because it was this show that brought the issue to his attention.
- [35:45]
Nicole Wallace
The circuit is complete. You're so powerful. Everything's going to be fine. Let's bring into our coverage former Democratic senator, MSNBC political analyst Claire McCaskill and Puck News chief political columnist, MSNBC national affairs analyst John Heilman, who's here, as well as Claire. John, we've talked a lot about the rising and falling of folks inside the MAGA verse. Largely with Elon Musk's rise came a bit of a dip for Steve Bannon. This one is obviously a win for Steve Bannon, but I wonder, Claire, how far Trump will get if he tries to actually manufacture economic data, if that's part of the plan or if that's part of what this person was, was brought on to do.
- [36:33]
Secretary Frank Kendall
Well, it's going to be hard for this guy to make up numbers. And the last person in charge of this agency had very little ability to have any impact on the numbers whatsoever. It will be very interesting to see whether when this guy, assuming that everybody lays down and confirms them, even though he's not qualified. This is what they do now. Republican senators, they confirm unqualified candidates for important jobs. There's a lot of people that work at BLS that are what we call technocrats. And I just want to take a minute and explain what a technocrat is. I took over the state auditor's office in Missouri, and it was full of technocrats, people who had worked in the office for decades, who knew auditing, who understood government auditing and had no political bias whatsoever. They were not trying to call anything other than balls and strikes, best based on the facts and Their technical expertise. That's the essence of the bls. That's what the Bureau of Labor Statistics does. They just analyze the data and then they report that data out. These people are professional, they're qualified, and I don't think most of them will stand by quietly if this guy tries to make stuff up. So I think he'd have a rocky road if he can't fire all the people there, because frankly, the level of expertise, he doesn't even know about, the statistics there. He's shown in interviews he's done that he's ignorant about what even is underlying the data they report on. So I think it will be tough. Now. What he's really done is he's removed the faith people have in this agency. That's what he's done. By doing this, who is going to believe whether or not they can rely on this, whether it's public sector or private sector, that's where the real damage is being done.
- [38:30]
Nicole Wallace
Well, Axios is reporting that he's actually suggested not issuing a jobs report at all. So that's. That's one way to deal with not being able to overpower the technocrats. John.
- [38:46]
David French
Yes, right. I mean, look, there, there are. I agree with Claire, very hard to cook the books and I think would be so harmful for Trump's economic policies and so harmful for the markets, if any were. You're still talking about a big bureaucracy of BLS and a bunch of people who are committed to telling the truth. Certainly, if there was a mandate that came down from the White House to cook the books, that would certainly be leaked and would certainly end up on the page of the Wall Street Journal and would then send the market spiraling, etc. Etc. The more likely and equally pernicious things that are going to happen, I think, are. First, first, is the new head of the BLS going to have to preview any numbers that are put out with the White House before they put those numbers out? That's the way a chilling effect works in an administration, is to sort of say, well, you know, you guys should do your thing, you know, get the numbers together. But we want to see them over here before they're. Before they're reported to the public. That immediately puts a lot of pressure on the head of the bls, puts him in a state of fear, makes him try to figure out ways, if not to concoct fake numbers, to maybe take the edge off of bad numbers or to in some way undermine those, ask for review of them. And then there's the question, as you said a second ago, Nicole, which is not putting out numbers at all. I think there's nothing in the Constitution about issuing monthly jobs reports. So that would have economic consequences. Also, the markets have come to rely on those numbers, but it's not at all unthinkable. That's where we end up.
- [40:20]
Nicole Wallace
I've just taken a break, but I want to show you other ways that we know Trump is unhappy with the Trump economy reaching deep into individual corporations and more threats for Jerome Powell. Sneak in a quick break. We'll all be right back on the other side. We're back with Clarendon. John. Claire, you can tell a lot from Trump's social media posts where he feels out of control and the economy is clearly one of those areas. He's used his social media platform today to threaten Jerome Powell with a lawsuit over a renovation. But he also did this. This is in the Wall Street Journal. Trump said on his truth social media platform that David Solomon should go, he's the Goldman Sachs chief economist and get him to and that Goldman Sachs should get themselves a new economist because the bank made a bad prediction a long time ago on the market in tariffs. The president asserted that tariffs haven't caused inflation or other issues for the US Economy. Now, the interesting part isn't the Trump's tweet, it's what will Goldman Sachs do? What are your thoughts right now at this sort of pace of capitulation from the private sector?
- [41:29]
Secretary Frank Kendall
Well, it's clear, as some of your guests on the previous segment outlined, that he has instilled fear everywhere from higher ed to police departments to local governments, you name it, universe, everybody is law firms. I think he's going to have a hard time with this though, because he really can't bring the market under his thumb. The market is the market and people's price for a hamburger is people's price for a hamburger. And the cost of buying a house is the cost of buying a house. And keep in mind, Nicole, there's a lot of places these numbers are reported privately. It's not all the government reporting these numbers. You get reports from private payrolls and those are also put out there. And I don't think Goldman Sachs really is going to bend under his threats about their economist. They know whether their economist is a good economist. And even if they did bend, they'd get another really good economist because they care about their bottom line more than they care about Donald Trump. That's the problem. He's got the people who are running Wall street and running major corporations care about their bottom line, way more than Trump and he can't overcome that problem.
- [42:55]
Nicole Wallace
Haman, do you share Claire's optimism that Goldman Sachs won't blink, they'll stand by their economist even even though Trump tweeted something mean about him?
- [43:05]
David French
I do. But, but I think it's somewhat distorted that they're, the fact that they are likely to be steadfast is not reflective of the larger question that you raised, Nicole, about, about the capitulation in the private sector. I think that it is the case that, that Wall street firms are somewhat vulnerable to retaliatory regulation and other things that the Trump administration could do to them. They are less vulnerable to that than some other sectors of the economy. You don't want to get too much into the weeds here and sound like we're cnbc, but you can look at the capitulation tracks very closely to which industries are trying to do the most mergers and acquisitions that could be blocked by the administration and which ones are most vulnerable to regulatory retaliation. So if you're in an age, if you're in an industry where you, where you want to buy, do a bunch of deals or where there's important issues of regulation that affect your business and your bottom line, those industries are capitulating to Trump head over heels. And we've seen that in our business. Frankly, in many cases, the people who watch the show regularly are familiar with. There are some other industries, though, that aren't as affected by that and are better armed financially to take on some of the legal threats. So I think Wall street by and large is actually pretty much in a position to tell Trump to pound sand. But a lot of other industries are not in there are or think they're not and are acting like they're not, don't believe that they are and have been willing to bow down and scrape before him in pretty egregious ways.
- [44:41]
Nicole Wallace
So we early you guys up. You're sticking around to start off the five o' clock hour. So thank you for starting starting early. We'll see you in a minute. Up next for us, another step by the Trump administration to recast American history in Trump's image. We'll explain next an update to a story we brought you here yesterday. NBC News is now confirming reporting in the Wall Street Journal that the White House plans to conduct a far reaching review of Smithsonian museum exhibitions, materials and operations ahead of America's 250th anniversary to ensure that the museums align with Donald Trump's interpretation of American history. More from the Journal's reporting quote. In a letter sent to the secretary of the Smithsonian Institution, three top White House officials said they want to ensure the museum's unity, progress and enduring values that define the American story and reflect the president's executive order calling for restoring truth and sanity to American history. Because an executive takeover of American history in museums is sane. Okay, that's insane. We'll stay on top of it. Up next for us, Donald Trump and the Republican Party just can't shake off the Jeffrey Epstein scandal. The latest town hall hall meetings and why voters refuse to let the contradictions and efforts at distraction work. The next hour of deadline White House starts after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
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