Unidentified Guest/Panelist (5:26)

Wow.

Nicole Wallace (5:27)

Another person speaking out about the rot taking hold inside the Department of Justice, former special counsel Jack Smith. In his first public comment since ending his investigation of Donald Trump, Jack Smith spoke exclusively to MSNBC legal analyst Andrew Weissman. Here he is on the exodus of career public servants in the wake of political prosecutions from the Trump administration.

Jack Smith (5:50)

If there's rules in the department about how to bring a case, follow those rules. You can't say, I want this outcome. Let me throw the rules out. That's why, frankly, you see all these conflicts between the career apolitical prosecutors I worked with. Because they're being asked to do things that they think are wrong, and because they're not political people, they're not going to do them. And I think that explains why. You've seen the resignations, you've seen people leave the department. It's not because they're enemies of one administration or the next. They've worked through decades for different administrations. It's just they've been doing things apolitically forever. And when they're told no, you've got to get this outcome no matter what, that is so contrary to how we were all raised as prosecutors.

Nicole Wallace (6:34)

Two people targeted by Donald Trump speaking out against his efforts to bend the rule of law and fundamentally reshape our vital institutions is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. New York Times Justice Department reporter Glenn Thrush is here joining me at the table. Former criminal division deputy chief at SDNY, MSNBC legal analyst, host of a new YouTube show, Courtside. Christy Greenberg's here. Also joining us, opinion writer for the New York Times, MSNBC political analyst Mara Gay is here with me at the table. And you were in the room last night, Letish, James. I want to hear all about that. Also joining us, justice and intelligence correspondent Kendallanian. He has been crashing that Jack Smith interview with Andrew Weissman. Kendallanean, you've seen more of it than I have. Tell me what else Jack Smith says.

Kendallanian (7:20)

Oh, it was a remarkably newsy interview, Nicole. Jack Smith made news on two fronts. One, he tried to explain some of the decisions he made in the cases he brought against Donald Trump. And then secondly, as you played there he commented extensively and critically on what's been happening in the Trump Justice Department in terms of his cases. He was asked point blank by Andrew Weissman, what do you say to people who say that, hey, Joe Biden had classified documents in his house. Another special counsel decided not to bring a case, whereas you charged Donald Trump. He said, it's very simple. The difference is the facts. He said, we had tons of evidence of willfulness, meaning that he had evidence that Donald Trump intended to hide those classified documents, that he knew he was taking them. And he also said that they could prove what he called obstructive conduct, meaning Donald Trump tried to obstruct justice, tried to hide, in Jack Smith's view, these documents from investigators. And he said that's why he prosecuted Donald Trump, and that's why Joe Biden was, was not prosecuted by another special counsel, Rob Her. He also pushed back against what is an important claim against him right now, that he violated the Hatch act or somehow acted politically by bringing the cases despite the election coming near. And what he said was, and he said this in court papers, too, but it was so interesting to hear Jack Smith say, he said, look, it's not just the defendant that has a right to a speedy trial in this country. The public had a right to a speedy trial, particularly on claims of this gravity about someone this prominent. They deserved their day in court. And that's what he intended to do while following all the rules. He also spoke to this claim by these Republican senators that they were spied on or wiretapped by his team. But when they obtained their tolling records, which are not content or two from records, he said that they followed all the rules in obtaining those records. They got permission from the Justice Department's Public Integrity section. And there was nothing sort of out of the ordinary about that. And then in terms of his commentary on what's happening in the Trump Justice Department, I mean, it was interesting to hear. Look, we've heard a lot of people say these things, but he is, after all, a career public servant. He is not a political person, despite what Republicans and Donald Trump have said about him. And he said nothing like what we've seen has ever gone on. And he talked extensively about attacks on public servants and on his team. He actually grew emotional when he talked about the firing of an FBI agent that had worked with him, a man named Walt Giardina, who was fired a few days after his wife died of cancer. Jack Smith's voice cracked as he recounted that story in terms of the prosecution of James Comey he said, quote, that just reeks of a lack of process. He said the idea that you would just bring a new U.S. attorney with no knowledge of the case and take it to the grand jury in one day and get an outcome that you want is just anathema to everything the Justice Department stands for. And one I thought was interesting. Many people may have forgotten about it when those war plans were were presented by the defense secretary, Pete Hegseth, in a signal chat that included a journalist, Jack Smith said there is no administration, Republican or Democrat, in the history of this country that would not have opened a criminal investigation into that matter when you had war plans, state secrets leaking into public view, shared on a non classified venue. And of course, the Trump Justice Department did not investigate that. In fact, they sought to justify it immediately when they were asked about it. And to him, that's just an example of how we are so far from the way the Justice Department has operated even in the first Trump administration. So a lot of news in that interview, Nicole.

Nicole Wallace (10:53)

You know, Ken, one thing I wondered in sort of not just the news that you're taking us through, but the fact of the interview, there is no one standing up for the men and women who worked under his direction in these prosecutions. As they get smeared, as they go into hiding, as they go unemployed, as they lose health insurance, as they get purged, as the ones who are still there subjected to polygraph tests. Does he plan to maintain a public profile and defend the reputations of the men and women who worked for him?

Kendallanian (11:25)

Well, I don't recall him speaking to that specifically, but I think given the tenor of he sort of let it all hang out in this interview, it suggests that he does plan to speak out and he was very passionate about what you just spoke to because most of the people that work for him, they can't go out in public and say the things he's saying because they're trying to earn a living and their names are not as well known as Jack Smith and they are trying to work at law firms or other places and they just want to keep theirthey want to keep their name out of public view. And so they can't defend themselves even when they're smeared publicly. So Jack Smith has decided that he can do that, apparently, and perhaps he will going forward because you're absolutely right, they all have suffered. And these were career people who did nothing. But, you know, they volunteered for a case that was assigned to a special counsel and investigate the facts and follow the law.

Nicole Wallace (12:18)

Nicole, It's Just an amazing. I mean, Merrick Garland is not a career public servant. Neither is Lisa Monica. Both of them could be on TV all day, every day. It's 4:11. I've got another hour and 50 minutes and the lines are open. None of them are defending the people who brought these cases at their direction on their leadership. Chris Wray is harder to find, you know, than ice in a heat wave with the power out. Why aren't the leaders, in your opinion, just in your analysis, Ken, speaking out for their workforce?

Kendallanian (12:47)

Well, there's a number of different explanations for each one of them. Lisa Monaco, for example, is working for. I forgot, I think it's Google.

Nicole Wallace (12:57)

Microsoft.

Kendallanian (12:57)

Microsoft, sorry. And Donald Trump has attacked her for that and tried to get her fired. So perhaps you can understand her reluctance to speak.

Nicole Wallace (13:05)

But do you think she's safer by not speaking? I mean, it seems that Donald Trump sometimes moves on if a dog barks back. I mean, why aren't any of these people, why don't they have the moral compass to defend their staffers?

Kendallanian (13:17)

It's a fair question. They don't want to get in the muck. Perhaps Merrick Garland and Chris Wray, those are fair questions for those people because their careers are essentially over. They are, as far as I know, they're not taking prominent jobs at law firms or other kinds of places. So you're absolutely right. There's no reason they can't be speaking out right now. And they're not. And that's a question for a lot of actually former senior Biden administration officials. But I do know when I talk to people, there is a fear because we've never seen anything like the kind of actions that are being taken against people, official actions and punishments, whether it's defunding universities and going after law firms. And so there is a fear even among very prominent people that to speak could really cost them and their loved ones something. And so they have chosen not to.

Nicole Wallace (14:06)

Such a. It feels like the most cowardly path for people who are leaders of these institutions they claim to love. Glenn Thrush, you're here because the other person speaking out and mustering courage is Tish James along with Jack Smith in this news cycle, I have never seen Tish James really sound the note she sounded last night. But the idea that Donald Trump is going to roll over these people or that these folks, once targeted with what is clear a vindictive prosecution just going on the sights and sounds of his own appointees inside the justice department and these U.S. attorney's office is unprecedented in its own. Right.

Glenn Thrush (14:56)

So we're starting to see more of a pushback, which is somewhat to be expected. We've gone from the talking about it stage of these prosecutions that appear to be motivated by retribution and have been forced through over the objections of career prosecutors into this stage of active prosecutions. We are likely to see John Bolton, the former national security adviser, charged next. We don't know about Adam Schiff. Adam Schiff in Maryland on another mortgage fraud case, but this is a necessity now. You've pushed people to the back wall. You've hit marble. Right. In order to defend themselves, their reputations and perhaps even their liberty. These people have got to start talking out. So what's interesting about Smith, Letitia James, I've observed as a politician for probably 25 years, we're both from Brooklyn. This was fairly characteristic of the way that she's spoken about Donald Trump in the past. Obviously, there's a great urgency that wasn't there before. But the Smith conversation, for those of us who covered him and essentially had to feed upon old transcripts and see him speaking before the criminal court in the Hague, I think we maybe got 100 words out of him at two press conferences.

Nicole Wallace (16:15)

Yeah.

Glenn Thrush (16:16)

It was just fascinating to see how not only confident he was, but how much he appeared ready for battle. And I'll tell you something. Over the last few months, I've been talking to Republicans on the Hill who were expressing a lot of concern about having Smith appear in public. That is why I think the House Jim Jordan's oversight committee today requested from Jack Smith that he do a transcribed interview behind closed doors. They don't necessarily, and I'm not asserting this as my opinion, this is what Republicans have told me. They do not want that Jack Smith to provide video clips of the type that he just provided to Andrew Weissman.

Nicole Wallace (17:02)

Well, on that note, let's play another one.

Jack Smith (17:07)

These are people who are not self promoters. They do not like to tell their own story. They cannot start a sentence with I. They start that with we. These are team players who don't want anything but to do good in the world. They're not interested in politics. And I get very concerned when I see how easy it is to demonize these people for political ends when these are the very sort of people I think we should be celebrating. The people on my special counsel team were like that. The idea that politics played a role in who worked on that case or who got chosen is ludicrous. And Andrew, you know, and this is another thing that I think if you're not inside the US Department of Justice. The idea that politics would play a role in big cases like this, it's absolutely ludicrous. And it's totally contrary to my experience as a prosecutor.

Nicole Wallace (18:04)

The most salient thing that he points at is the truest thing that I think anyone that has either worked in the government. I worked in the government, and after 9 11, trying to get Bob Mueller to do press to talk about the things they were doing to keep the country safe was near impossible. It was easier to get things declassified from the CIA than to get Bob Mueller to do a press roundtable. And then the notion that any of these people is comfortable defending their place in a democracy, they're head down people. I mean, what is the Pandora's box that has been opened by this, you know, retribution campaign on steroids that the Republicans in the House and Senate have greenlit every step of the way?

Glenn Thrush (18:48)

Look, to embrace the cliche, we are in terra incognita, uncharted territory here. We don't know how the heck this is all gonna play out. I mean, the one thing that the dynamic that is shifting is we have witnessed the SOU round of one hand punching for seven months. Most of the individuals that are involved and have been targeted. And I wrote about Chris Meyer and Walt Giardina. They were kind enough to talk with me about their experiences in being fired. They were very, very reluctant. It took me quite a long time to get them to even agree to an interview. These are FBI agents. They tend to be extraordinarily reluctant to speak in public and more wary of the press than they are of government officials. But I think what's going on right now is the damage to these institutions is so profound and the direct influence being exercised by the White House so significant that I think you are going to see people speaking out more and more now. How this all plays out in public, how the American people respond to that, I think is very much an open question because this is an administration that has proven really adept at providing one side of the story to its constituency. So I don't know what the impact is going to be. But I, but I hope, and I think we are going to see a greater multiplicity of voices and more of a public response from the individuals who are being accused of politicizing the Justice Department and FBI.

Nicole Wallace (20:22)

And Glenn, your interview with those two agents is distinct from your coverage of the lawsuit. There's also a lawsuit from three of the most senior FBI agents as that sort of roars forward. And that also is a direct response to the purge of the FBI's senior leadership. That will be a, that will have public faces of it as well. That will thrust this weaponization of the FBI and DOJ into the headlines in ways that Trump and the Republicans can't control.

Glenn Thrush (20:51)

Yeah, I think we've got and by the way, we are just now also seeing dozens of lawsuits and appeals before various boards for these dismissals of career both career FBI agents and also DOJ career officials who were dismissed from member on the legal theory that the Article 2 of the Constitution gives President Trump the right to fire people without cause or investigation. So in addition to some of the more high profile cases, I think you're going to continue seeing, both through appeals boards and other legal action, more and more information coming out about the way that the department's leadership is acting. But Nicole, the one thing, and you and I have talked about this a lot is are people paying attention to this? Is this being relegated to this sort of boring bureaucratic fight that both sides always have? This is an extraordinary circumstance and I think what makes it distinct now with Smith coming forward is he by default is probably the most important voice in this debate not coming from the Trump side.

Nicole Wallace (22:02)

Such an important point. Kendallinian, thank you for getting ahead of all that and watching that and reporting on that and starting us off with it today. Glenn Maher and Christie stick around with me. When we come back. From retribution to more chaos and infighting, we'll get to Glenn's new reporting on the Department of justice under Trump 2.0. And later in the broadcast, Pete Hegseth putting an ultimatum on the free press demanding media outlets only report with the Pentagon, tells them they can report a new front in the administration's war on facts and truth. All those stories and more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. The connection between the guests on the show is the show. All that we do is put together people who are smart, people who are brave, people who are honest, and lots of times people who've never met each other to have a conversation that has never happened before. But on that day deepens everyone's understanding about the the moment in which we gather.

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Nicole Wallace (23:44)

We're back with Glenn, Christy and Mara. Mara, you were in the room last night with Tish James. Your thoughts?

Mara Gay (23:49)

Well, the United palace in Washington Heights was quite the venue last night, not only for State Attorney General Letitia James, but for the headliner Zoran Mamdani, who has electrified the Democratic base. And I think it's actually really important to talk about that context. Tish James got an electric reception when she put her fist in the air. An act of defiance. Yes, it was a friendly crowd, but what's important to know about this crowd is that it really was the heart of what is a growing Democratic and pro democracy coalition that has started here in New York. Improbably, that is also taking place across the country. This is a country, clearly we've been talking about on and off air, Nicole, that is in desperate need of an opposition party, is in desperate need of a pro democracy movement. And that's the through line between Letitia James, between Zoran Mamdani and between Jack Smith.

Nicole Wallace (24:48)

Yeah.

Mara Gay (24:48)

And all of these people have put their own personal reputations, their professional reputations and, and by the way, their lives at risk to continue to speak out, to defend the country, not only for the sake of the institutions, but for the American people. You don't have to be a Republican or Democrat to do that. Liz Cheney did the same thing, by the way. These are people who are facing death threats, who are facing prosecutions. In the case of Mr. Mamdani, this is a 33 year old who apparently has more courage than some of the former members of the DOJ who led these departments and are not speaking out on behalf of the people that worked for them, on behalf of the American people. So why is that? I think we need to pull back a little bit and also understand that Americans are frustrated with institutions for a reason across the political spectrum because they feel that these institutions are not serving them, no matter who's in charge. And, and I think what we saw last night with Tish James, and again, the context is important. It's not only about Letitia James, it's about other Democrats from across the spectrum and Republicans who are starting to just speak out, who are saying, you know what, we're not afraid anymore and we're not going to allow, as Glenn said, the president to keep punching and we're going to simply have a bureaucratic response. We need to look like an opposition party. We need to build a pro democracy movement. We need to start speaking out. So, you know, there are Americans who have been marching peacefully in the streets. There are Americans who have been showing up to hearings, braving ICE alongside undocumented immigrants, who apparently have more courage than people who ran large organizations, institutions, companies, people who have more power, more money, and yet are not speaking out. Why is that? I think it's disgraceful.

David Frum (26:40)

Yeah.

Nicole Wallace (26:40)

I don't have the answer. I do think there is this moment, though, where the Trump administration is acting so sort of beyond the pale that you've got Chris Christie comparing them to mobsters. Do we have that sound? We'll find it. I mean, the Justice Department's conduct is so beyond explaining as anything other than carrying out Trump's retribution campaign. And these two figures. I mean, I think your point is well taken that Jack Smith and Tish James have never worked. I think in the Justice Department at the same time, there was obviously no collusion. You know, her case against Trump is totally separate from his case against Trump. But what they have in common is they're both standing up to him now as he seeks to destroy the rule of law more broadly.

Unidentified Guest/Panelist (27:31)

Yeah. I mean, you are hearing recently, in the last week or so, more voices of people speaking. You heard James Comey give a fiery speech, his daughter Maureen Comey, talking about fear being a tool of tyrants.

Mara Gay (27:43)

Right.

Unidentified Guest/Panelist (27:43)

And then we heard Barack Obama recently calling out law firms, calling out the universities, and, like, honestly, hearing these people speak, it's like chicken soup for the soul, because we've just been starved of hearing any opposition. If to just hear Trump's people speak, you would think all of these institutions, that the Department of Justice was just a swamp that needs to be drained. That's all they're hearing. And they're not seeing the. The other side, where, you know, just to see Jack Smith speak, like, he has such integrity. And the problem is, you know, if you think that he was corrupt, great, let's see his report. Why are you trying to hide the facts? Why are you trying to have him testify behind closed doors? Because you don't want it all to be out in the open. I mean, even looking Tish James, they have an indictment against her for a supposed fraud where she allegedly benefited $18,000. She prosecuted and won a civil fraud case against Donald Trump for $500 million. Like, $18,000 does not rise to the level of being a federal fraud case. In my experience, those are cases you would decline again, even assuming the facts were True.

Nicole Wallace (28:54)

Eric Siebert didn't think so either. The Republican U.S. attorney in the Eastern.

Unidentified Guest/Panelist (28:58)

District of Virginia who was appointed by Donald Trump. And not just Eric Seaborne Siebert, Pam Bondi and Todd Blanche, the number one, the Attorney General and her deputy thought they could not secure a conviction. According to Glenn's reporting, they were communicated to the White House that they could not secure a conviction here. In a normal time, that would be the end of the matter. Hey, the Attorney General has spoken. It's her Department of Justice. That's it. You brought in Lindsey Halligan, an insurance lawyer who's overriding the Attorney General, and not even informing her of the timing of. I mean, that is like the biggest f you you can imagine. Like, these things are. There's a hierarchy. I mean, I worked at the Southern District of New York, which was known as the sovereign district, and we liked our independence. But when the Attorney General said, you don't have a case, you didn't bring the case. Like, I can't think of a circumstance where a US Attorney would buck the Attorney General. And here it's like she's powerless. I mean, you've got them going into all these cities talking about rebellion. Look at your own Department of Justice. This is rebellion. You have people going rogue. And ultimately you've got, like, Ed Martin in his trench coat looking outside of Letitia James apartment and house. I mean, you've got Bill Pulte, who's not a lawyer but plays one on X. And these are the people in Donald Trump's ear, right? Like, they are the ones he's listening to about whether or not to bring cases against prosecutors. It is madness. And I just, you know, you need the other side. You need to see the other side to understand just how out of control the Department of Justice is and that they are not listening to the Attorney General. They are listening to Donald Trump. He has said himself, he is the chief law enforcement officer. It is his department now. And they've sent in the clowns. These, you know, not team Normal, this is team Crazy now, who are running these cases is that just. There's no there there. And ultimately, it needs to be out in the open. We need to see these. We need to have. I mean, I know we don't have cameras in the courtroom. There should be. People should see just how incompetent these prosecutors, wannabe prosecutors are and that they don't have cases. And then see on the other side, the Jack Smiths, the James Comeys, the people who actually did have integrity, who did Follow the facts, who did follow the law.

David Frum (31:19)

Like.

Unidentified Guest/Panelist (31:20)

Like people need to see that contrast to understand just how bad what's happening in the department is.

Nicole Wallace (31:27)

And Glenn, I want to set up your reporting by playing, you know, because I think it's important to point out that this was a Federalist Society member in Danielle Sassoon who left SDNY in opposition to the corruption of the Eric Adams case. Eric Siebert was in good standing not just in the Republican Party, but with maga, has relationships with Todd Blanche and Pam Bondi, who I know is the subject of your reporting. Let me play you Chris Christie's assessment of the department and then take us through what you're reporting about it.

David Frum (31:57)

We know why this was done. It was done because Donald Trump told the Justice Department to prosecute Letitia James. And when the professionals there wouldn't do it, he put somebody in who would just follow his instruction. This is no longer the Department of Justice, is no longer the premier prosecuting office in America. What it is now is a capo regime who goes out and executes hits when directed by the don to do so. That's what it is.

Nicole Wallace (32:28)

In Chris Christie's fashion, he gets to the point a little more crudely and crassly than Christy Greenberg, but same parallel arguments, if you will, take us through what you're reporting.

Glenn Thrush (32:39)

I mean, I appreciate the jersey, and that's really something coming from the Bridgegate guy. Look, I think one of the things that Christy pointed out is this notion that the Justice Department is no longer operating with the independence that it had in prior time. I love that line about Bill Pulte being a lawyer on X. I'm going to steal that Christie. But look, I think what is going on right now and what my piece really illustrates is the extent to which Ed Martin, the aforementioned man in the trench coat, a former Phyllis Schlafly associate from Missouri, a Republican Party activist, a guy who defended a lot of J6 rioters, and someone who was deemed by Senate Republicans to be too far out there to be permanently selected as the U.S. attorney in D.C. is essentially doing the bidding of Donald Trump and people in the West Wing who are of like mind ending around going around the official channels of Pam Bondi and Todd Blanche. These are the guys. These are the people who have the big titles and the SUVs and the responsibility for proving these indictments in court. One thing to bring an indictment, another thing to secure a conviction. And they have as much power as Todd Blanche in some of these instances. I think the perfect illustration is our reporting and MSNBC's reporting and everyone else's showed that Blanche and Bondi were not in the loop on the timing of the James indictment last Thursday. Lindsey Halligan did not inform them. Now, look, there's a question as to whether or not they wanted to distance themselves from it. That is a lively possibility that hasn't been much discussed. But it is really striking that you essentially have Ed Martin, who is empowered by the White House, roaming around the fourth floor of the Department of Justice choosing targets of his own opportunity with Todd Blanche essentially relegated at this moment to chiding him after the fact. That is an extraordinary set of developments. It's one thing to sort of have what we experienced early on in the administration, Emile Beauvais, now a judge who was the enforcer for the White House. But now you have these split chains of command and a sense of entropy, chaos, and anything can happen in a department that really has traditionally represented the stability of American jurisprudence. It's a really extraordinary circumstance. And again, I know I keep saying this. I think one and Christy referred to this as well and Mara did too. I think one of the issues here is like people got to start paying attention to this. This is not a boutique.

Nicole Wallace (35:36)

Yeah. I mean, as you're talking, I also am reminded that there are no new Trump stories, just new targets for destruction. I mean, this is very much like Rudy Giuliani's Ukraine policy, which was off book trying to take out Marie Yovanovitch while the on book folks were trying to catch up to Rudy's. You know, I mean, John Bolton was national security. I mean, he's done this before, but never at the cost of destroying the integrity of the Department of Justice and the FBI at the same time. Glenn, amazing reporting. Thank you for starting us off. Christy Greenberg, thank you.

Mara Gay (36:08)

I will.

Nicole Wallace (36:08)

I too will always think of the trench coat and the lawyers on X now. Mara stays with us after the break. For us, more warning signs coming into focus today on the growing weakness of the economy that the GOP seems to be paying zero attention to. We'll cover that next. You open the fridge, there's nothing there. So what's it going to be? Greasy pizza, Sad Drive Thru Burgers. Dish by Blue Apron is for nights like that. These are the pre made meals of your dreams. At least 20 grams of protein. No artificial flavors or colors. No chopping, no cleanup, no guilt. Keep the flavor, ditch the subscription. Get 20% off your first two orders with code APRON20 terms and conditions apply. Visit BlueApron.com terms for more. The connection between the guests on the show is the show. All that we do is put together people who are smart, people who are brave, people who are honest, and lots of times people who've never met each other to have a conversation that has never happened before. But on that day deepens everyone's understanding about the moment in which we gather.

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Mara Gay (37:40)

The second Trump administration has gone to unprecedented lengths to radically transform America.

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Nicole Wallace (38:02)

Another day, more new tariffs There are new ones in effect today that are bound to affect any one of us looking to make home improvements over the coming months. Months Donald Trump's new rates, ranging from 10 to 50% on lumber on kitchen cabinets and furniture, is a particularly gutting figure considering the latest estimation from Goldman Sachs that U.S. consumers are already shouldering as much as 55% of the cost of Donald Trump's tariffs so far. And then there's another category of economic news today. We'll call them tea leaves, the so called recession indicators, warning signs flashing yellow and red lights for our economy. Washington Post laid some of those out for us today, starting with cardboard boxes of all things. Production fell 5% in the second quarter, according to the American Forest and Paper Association. It's a sign that people are expected to buy fewer things in the coming months, things that would be shipped and arrive in a cardboard box. Hamburger helper sales are up almost 15% this year, its parent company says, as Americans seek to save money on their groceries. Sales of heavy trucks. Those are down nearly 15% this year, according to ACT research. Visits to thrift thrift stores are up nearly 40%, while a whole 63% of Americans suggest it's a bad time to find a job, according to a Washington Post poll. We want to bring in David Frum. He's a staff writer for the Atlantic. He's host of the video podcast the David Frum show, which is much see, Mara is still with us. David, we had a conversation at the beginning of sort of the announcement and the shocking part of the tariff regime rolling out about what it was going to take. And one of the points you made was that people have to start to experience the bad effects of Trump's policies, not that we wish any bad effects on anybody, regardless of who they voted for, but maybe just as a credibility piece, people have to feel it or live it, or understand how detrimental his policies are. Do you see this as sort of that crossing that line from a lot of talk and bluster on the South Lawn to it's now being felt in the real economy?

David Frum (40:14)

One of the things I check in are people who try to find jobs on LinkedIn and talk to anyone who's had that experience. And if they were doing it 15 months ago, it took a bit of trouble. But you found a job on LinkedIn. Today you can't. And even when a job is advertised, it doesn't really exist because companies are not hiring because of the burden of so many bad decisions. The tariffs are a tax, but they're also a source of waste. A lot of the money just vanishes. People pay more and get nothing for it. The government collects money from them. The tariff tax, just to give you an idea of how big it is in a month, the tariff tax collects more from Americans, those least able to pay than the whole so called tax on tips hullabaloo, which is going to expire in 2028. One month. The government takes more from working people than it will give back. Over the whole life of that program, everything costs more, Jobs are becoming scarce. And meanwhile, this is happening a little bit under the eye. The President and his friends are planning the biggest giveaway maybe in American history by selling TikTok to insiders. I'm guessing something like a third of its actual value.

Nicole Wallace (41:22)

Yeah, and I think I read today's sun may be bound for the board. This is historically, and not just here, hideous politics. You know, the rich get richer. Working class families struggle mightily. Struggle more than they were struggling a year ago when they made their decision about who to vote for based on personal economics. Why do you think the political conversation isn't focused around these issues more intensely?

David Frum (41:51)

It takes a long time for a really big boat to sink, even when it's taking on water. So people remembered the first Trump term. The rich did get richer. But most people, at least for the first three years, most people felt they were getting better off too. And Americans are. They're not looking over somebody else's shoulder if someone else is doing well. But if they're doing fine, they're not going to be envious of that. And for the first three years of Trump's first term, that seemed to be the deal that he seemed to be offering, even if it Wasn't entirely true. But in this term, Trump has begun from the beginning doing policies that are directly damaging to the pocketbooks of ordinary people. And although there was a considerable impetus coming out of COVID the economy was growing in 23 and 24. In 24, wages were growing faster than prices. So there was some momentum. It took a few months to wreck that, but it's being wrecked.

Nicole Wallace (42:41)

David, one of the other indicators that caught my eye today was in the Wall Street Journal, Americans falling behind on their car payments, 1.73 million vehicles, vehicles repossessed last year, the highest total since 2009. So, you know, higher, higher car repossession rates than even during COVID And for all of the hullabaloo about masculinity in the manosphere, there's nothing more emasculating than financial struggle, than saying no to a new car, than saying, where'd the car go? We had to give it back. We couldn't afford it. To groceries getting more expensive, not less. Where do you think the fault lines are emerging in Trump's own coalition?

David Frum (43:21)

Well, one of the things I've noticed about those car repossession stories is in a normal downturn, basically, the cheaper the car, the higher the likelihood of it being repossessed. It makes sense. Someone who's buying a $20,000 car probably has fewer means than someone buying a $40,000 car. And so you'd expect when the repossession engine gets going, the $20,000 cars feel it first. That doesn't seem to be what's happening this time. And part of it seems to be that people made decisions in 2024, when times are good, they took on 36 month payment plans on medium expensive cars. And that's catching up to them now as their jobs are under pressure, as they can't, as other prices are rising. And of course, Trump is driving the cost of cars higher and higher and higher because tariffs are taxes on the purchase of automobiles.

Nicole Wallace (44:07)

Mara, are you surprised that this issue around affordability doesn't sort of focus and dominate the political debates more intensely?

Mara Gay (44:17)

I think it's beginning to. I think it will continue to, especially as the Democrats find their voice, not only through pivotal issues that are really important, like health care, but through affordability. Again, that's something that we've seen here in New York with the biggest race in the country with Soren Mohamdani. But I also think the context is really important because. Because immigration was the marquee issue for Donald Trump in last year's election and despite the cruel campaign and the unconstitutional campaign that he's embarked upon in recent months, to use ICE agents, you know, masked in our streets and pick up undocumented people and others and harassing U.S. citizens. You know, the juxtaposition between that unfolding and things not actually getting better for Americans, for US Citizens in general, in the workplace, at the grocery store, with their house payments, their rent, that is, I think, essential in terms of building the narrative that really resonates with people in this White House. And also, I wanted to talk about another recession indicator, which is the black female unemployment rate, which isit was up to, I think, 7.5% in August compared to 4.3%, I think, best as we can tell, right, for the national average, 300,000 black women leaving the workforce within just a few months. That's an alarming statistic. And it also speaks to how hard it is out there for the most vulnerable Americans, especially black people and black women. And, of course, that's a group that isn't part of Donald Trump's space, but, you know, there's a coalition that's starting to form here, and you can see those tea leaves. And, you know, the Democrats have to be able to put those pieces together.

Nicole Wallace (46:11)

Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, and they're doing a good job. And I think the public is hearing their message around health care and the shutdown loud and clear. But to your point, you don't just lose your job, you also are potentially at risk of losing. You're potentially in the same pool of losing Medicaid coverage. You're potentially in the same pool of losing health care because your Obamacare goes away. I mean, it's. There are a lot of things that are affecting a lot of groups all at once, and that is probably one of the, you know, a group that will cross pressure on all of these issues.

Mara Gay (46:40)

Well, I mean, all in all American society, Americans have less money in their pocket than they did last year. Their jobs are less secure. Their mortgages, many of them are struggling with their mortgages. I can tell you the rent has gone up. And that was the other funny thing. It's not funny. It's funny, darkly funny. The tariff on lumber. I mean, we are in a housing crisis. Right?

Glenn Thrush (47:01)

Right.

Mara Gay (47:01)

I mean, what is this? And why are the American people not just in cities, in cities, in rural areas, in suburban areas, we are paying for Donald Trump's agenda. So so far, it doesn't look good. It doesn't look good at all.

Nicole Wallace (47:20)

David Froudman will continue to check in with you on these stories and more. Margay, thank you. Thank you for spending the hour with us. Before we go, we want to show you what's happening right now at the White House. Donald Trump awarding conservative activists Charlie Kirk the Presidential Medal of Freedom, considered the nation's highest civilian honor. Tomorrow marks exactly five weeks since Kirk was fatally shot while speaking at a university in Utah. Today, his wife, Erica Kirk, accepts the award on his behalf. Today also would have been Charlie Kirk's 32nd birthday. Quick break for us. We'll be right back. Donald Trump, who it goes without saying oversees a government that is right now shut down, met yesterday with Argentinean President Javier Milei at the White House today after agreeing to give Argentina a $20 billion with a bailout that Trump told reporters is contingent on Milei's reelection. The Argentinian president is trying to stave off a financial crisis and a political crisis for his radical Libertarian Party. If you're wondering how to get yourself a $20 billion bailout, here is Milei at CPAC this year wielding a chainsaw alongside the then relevant and central Elon Musk. The bailout could have political blowback for Trump, as the New York Times reports, quote, american farmers criticize the move, given that China has been buying soybeans from Argentine farmers instead of American growers this year.

Glenn Thrush (48:46)

Year.

Nicole Wallace (48:47)

We'll stay on top of that. Up next for us, standing up against an authoritarian attempt to stifle the truth. Nearly every media outlet is refusing to go along with the Pentagon's new policies. We'll talk about that next.