← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
“Caught flat-footed”
01:26:44
Nicolle Wallace is joined by John Heilemann, Emily Davies, Ben Rhodes, Texas State Rep. James Talarico, Molly Jong-Fast, John Hudson, and Bob Kitchen.
Loading summary
Transcript169 lines
- [00:00]
Nicole Wallace
Businesses that are selling through the roof.
- [00:02]
John Heilman
Like Untuck it, make selling and for.
- [00:04]
Nicole Wallace
Shoppers buying simple with Shopify, home of.
- [00:06]
John Heilman
The number one checkout on the planet.
- [00:08]
Nicole Wallace
And with Shop Pay you can boost conversions up to 50%.
- [00:12]
John Heilman
Businesses that sell more sell on Shopify. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout Untuck it uses.
- [00:17]
Nicole Wallace
Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com podcastfree all lowercase go to shopify.com podcastfree to upgrade your selling today. Start your day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter, sharp insights from voices you trust, standout moments from your favorite shows, and fresh perspectives from experts shaping the news. Sign up now@msnbc.com.
- [00:48]
John Heilman
Hi there everyone. It's four o' clock in the east Donald Trump entering the week in a position he doesn't typically find himself in with some of his most loyal backers. Low MO as in low momentum on spinning a bogus narrative about the Jeffrey Epstein investigation Brand new reporting in the Washington Post reveals that Team Trump was caught flat footed by the reaction to the DOJ memo that attempted to pour cold water on the existence of bombshell revelations in the government's possession claims spread most convincingly and prolifically by the officials who now populate the highest levels of Trump's own administration. From that new reporting quote, Donald Trump is increasingly frustrated with his administration's handling of the furor around the Jeffrey Epstein files, concern that the saga's unabated domination of the news is overshadowing his agenda. That is, according to two people familiar with his thinking. One person tells the Washington Post this quote, this is a pretty substantial distraction. While many are trying to keep the unity, in many ways, the DOJ and the FBI are breaking at the seams. Many are wondering how sustainable this is going to be for all the parties involved, be it the FBI director or the attorney General. Well, perhaps the FBI director or the attorney general should have dialed back the promises they were making on television about the existence of lists and other evidence, given that they were appointed by a president who has made no secret about his belief that the main function of the FBI director and attorney General is now to protect him. We have shown you many of the clips of Dan Bongino and Cash Patel pushing, clamoring, screaming about the release of the Epstein files. Remember, it is Kash Patel who lashed out at House Republicans back in 2023 by saying this quote, put on your big boy pants and let us know who the pedophiles are, end quote. Kash Patel also promised full transparency during his Senate confirmation hearing. So will you work with me on this issue so we know who worked with Jeffrey Epstein in building these sex trafficking rings?
- [03:05]
Nicole Wallace
Absolutely.
- [03:05]
John Heilman
Senators. Child sex trafficking has no place in the United States of America. And I will do everything if confirmed as FBI director to make sure the American public knows the full weight of what happened in the past and how.
- [03:18]
Nicole Wallace
We are going to counterman missing children.
- [03:20]
John Heilman
And exploited children going fjord everything except release the Epstein material. And that was. That was in January, January 30th of this year. Less than one month after cash Patel said that in his confirmation hearing, his friend the Attorney General Pam Bondi goes on Fox News and says the Epstein client list is on her desk. Six days after that, Bondi hands out binders to right wing media personalities and influencers labeled the Epstein Files Phase 1, a title that by definition implies that there are more phases, at least two. All of this makes the July 7 memo declaring that there is nothing to see here. There was nothing. There was no client list. Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide in prison. All that becomes all the more confounding not to us, but to Trump's own allies and supporters. Politico reports this quote. The administration seemed to want to put the issue to bed quietly with this relatively terse and unsigned joint DOJ FBI memo. Case closed was the notion. So what happens? Why does the tone change? Wall Street Journal reports that sometime in May, Attorney General Pam Bondi tells Donald Trump that his name appears in the Epstein fil files multiple times. The mere mention of Donald Trump's name does not imply any wrongdoing. But Politico reports this quote. It may have triggered a critical inflection point in the administration's handling of the issue and its public statements on the subject. Since the release of the memo, Donald Trump has lashed out, slamming the media for asking questions about Epstein, even though most of the questions and complaints are coming from his most vocal supporters who are the most steeped in this story to begin with. They're the ones who have been pushing. Here's what Trump said today.
- [05:20]
Nicole Wallace
You have said that you have not been briefed on the Epstein files or your name has not appeared in the Epstein files. But doesn't the AG have to tell you if your name is. Well, I haven't been overly interested in it. You know, it's something. It's a hoax that's been built up way beyond proportion.
- [05:38]
John Heilman
I can say this.
- [05:39]
Nicole Wallace
Those files were run by the worst scum on earth. They were run by Comey, they were run by Garland, they were run by Biden and All of the people that actually ran the government, including the auto pen, those files were run for four years by those people. If they had anything, I assume they would have released it. The whole thing is a hoax.
- [06:08]
John Heilman
Whole thing's a hoax. That's why I kicked him out of Mar A Lago. Hoax doesn't even make sense in his world. He's even tried to dismiss the story as boring. And it is a lot of things. Gross, sordid, confusing, but boring is not one of those things. But most importantly, perhaps none of this is working really for the first time. Even Trump's efforts on the Epstein issue itself, where he seems to be trying to get out of it, seem half hearted and destined to really leave him where he is, which is politically stuck and maybe that's by design as well. The DOJ pushing for the release of the grand jury transcripts of the case, which one judge has already rejected. Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche's meeting with Ghislaine Maxwell has lots of people baffled. Here's what Chris Christie, who was once a big Trump backer, was in the running to be AG in the first Trump term, had to say about those meetings.
- [07:11]
Nicole Wallace
I have never seen this done, ever. The deputy Attorney General runs the Department of Justice. They don't interview witnesses. And so I wonder. The first question that popped to my mind as Sarah and I were talking about this was, you know, whenever you're a line assistant or anyone who's interviewing a witness, you bring at least one agent with you, if not two. So there are a number of people taking notes and there are witnesses there. We have heard nothing about whether Todd Blanche brought anyone with him to verify whatever he's going to report back as a third independent source. This is highly unusual. And if they're building a case. Building a case for what and against who? She's in jail for 20 years and her co conspirator is dead. So what exactly are they doing? It makes it look even worse. I think this is a bad political move for the White House on top of it. It makes it look like one of the people that is being accused of covering up Todd Blanche, is now in charge of digging out the truth.
- [08:20]
John Heilman
So when you've lost Chris Christie, that's where you are. Team Trump unable to find their way out of very much of their own making when it comes to Jeffrey Epstein is where we begin again today. Puck News chief political columnist, MSNBC national affairs analyst John Heilman is here. Also joining us, White House reporter for the Washington Post, Emily Davies. She's byline on some of that fantastic reporting we just read from and former deputy national security adviser to President Obama. MSNBC contributor Ben Rose is here. Heilman, let me start with you. And Chris Christie has been a critic of Donald Trump's for many years now, but I haven't seen such pointed and specific criticism of this team at DOJ from him yet. But he asks a very pointed question there. What is Todd Blanche doing if not seeming to engage in a cover up from the highest echelons of the Department of Justice?
- [09:21]
Nicole Wallace
It's a very pointed question, Nicole, and also a very unanswered question at this point. And it's a question that, as you will well remember, our friend Andrew Weissman raised on this program at the end of last week. And he made exactly the same point, I believe, on Friday where he said, you know, we have no idea if anybody was with Todd Blanche. Extremely unusual that Todd Blanche would be there. It made all the more unusual by the fact that Todd Blanche is not just the deputy attorney general, but also Donald Trump's former defense attorney and the fact that we do not know at this hour whether anyone was in the room with him and if someone was in the room with him, who that person was. And of course, it's fueled a lot of speculation, inference, suggestion combined with Donald Trump waving off discussion, not waving off as in saying, no, of course Jalane Maxwell will not be pardoned. I would never consider such a thing for a convicted child sex trafficker. No. Donald Trump twice has now been asked about it, asked about it on Friday and I believe asked about it today in Scotland and both times is not has said, well, I have the right to do it. I mean, I haven't thought about it. No one's brought it to me, which is, you know, tldr of Donald Trump. Yeah, it's certainly on the table. I think that's a not unreasonable inference and very easy to knock that down. So if you put those two things together, it suggests something very nefarious. Chris Christie didn't go quite that far in speculation as I just did and as some have done, many have done. But that is where we're at right now. And I will say, well, we can get back to this later. I want to get back to some of your timeline, but I don't want to hog the air at the top here. But I do want to get back to the way these perceptions are playing out among Trump supporters and what we're hearing from them now. And it's not just that Trump can't get past this, it's that every time he tries to get past it, he's making it worse for himself. He's just ensnaring himself further in the web of suspicion and the sense of betrayal that a lot of his voters feel over this issue.
- [11:26]
John Heilman
Let's jump to that. I actually, I want to play you what Tucker Carlson said on his show on Friday. And I mean, viewers of this show know how judicious I am about this gentleman specifically.
- [11:42]
Nicole Wallace
Play a lot of Tucker. Don't play a lot of Tucker on this show. Don't play a lot of Tucker. So it's got to be a special occasion.
- [11:47]
John Heilman
It's a special occasion. Here it is.
- [11:51]
Nicole Wallace
The Epstein thing, from my perspective, has been long known almost 20 years. The guy was a pervert and was involved in a, like, apparently a really significant sex ring with some underage girls in it. So the whole thing is gross. We knew that. But what is it, like, big picture? Like, what is that? Where did the money come from?
- [12:15]
John Heilman
I mean, Halman, I'll stick with you here on this because what is he talking about? The only thing that anyone under a rock knew was how rich Jeffrey Epstein. I mean, what is this? The new. Is this the conspiracy theory to Trump? The conspiracy theory that now it's just about following the money? Everyone knew he was a pervert, I gotta say.
- [12:33]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, I don't know what Tucker's talking about there and I'm not sure what he's alluding to. And I'm not gonna venture into the Carlson sphere or whatever that, you know, that his mindset about these things. I'm not going to go there. A plain spoken and much more I find compelling MAGA friendly or previously MAGA friendly, podcaster Andrew Schultz, who, you know, I've been listening to really carefully over the last couple of weeks, someone who previously a Democrat, someone who opened it, who voted for Trump in 2024, had very pointed criticisms of Joe Biden and Kamala Harris, had Ezra Klein on his podcast last week. And he said two things that really stood out to me. The first thing he said was that he assumed, he believed that the moment that Trump appointed Cash Patel and Dan Bongino, that it had to mean Trump was not implicated in any negative way in the Epstein files. Because of course, if you picked the two guys who stoked this conspiracy theory the most and demanded the most disclosure, you obviously had to be innocent. That was his inference. Then he said in the same, basically in the same breath, said that the moment that Donald Trump said we called Barack Obama a traitor, the moment he accused Obama of treason, Andrew Schultz said, I now think he's guilty. I just. There's no. That is the clearest sign in the world. All the stalling, all the stonewalling was leading me in that direction. But when Trump goes after Obama, that's it for me. I know there's something wrong here and Donald Trump is some way involved in this in a way that I would find problematic. And I gotta say that to me is this is not a hardcore MAGA person, but this is the kind of person that helped Donald Trump win the election in 2024. And that refrain, similar things to what Andrew Schultz just said are ringing out all throughout the manosphere and the hardcore MAGA base. And again, the more Trump does and this Ghislaine Maxwell thing is just flirting with disaster. Worst thing he could do, I think in terms of his political support would be to offer her a pardon. My God, everybody who is invested in this issue would see that as tantamount to some kind of admission of guilt. I think Nicole and I think Trump has lost his bearings on this in a really, really powerful and self destructive way.
- [14:50]
John Heilman
Ben Rose, because President Obama has been invoked, I want to come to you on this effort at deflection. And we watched this play out during the Russia investigation, which Trump did have some political success deflecting from not enough for his own comfort. He was agitated the entire time he was under investigation. His campaign was under investigation. But the sort of noun verb Obama committed treason reflex on the Epstein story, which his base of supporters will never believe is a hoax ever. They weren't sure about Russia, but they were brought around to believe that Russia, which was not a hoax either. John Durham and Marco Rubio found that Russia interfered in our election in 2016 and wanted Donald Trump to win. But this story comes from his base thinking that the ceiling of the documents is the hoax. And Donald Trump now aligning himself with the sealing of the information which puts him on the side of the deep state. I mean, what do you, what do you make of this? Absolutely upside down down, Alice in Wonders, Wonderland's looking glass moment for Donald Trump himself.
- [16:08]
Nicole Wallace
Look, put aside the absurdity of the claims about Obama and let's just focus on what he's doing tactically. Here's the problem that he has, Nicole, in the past, when he's played this card right, he attacked Obama or Biden or Hillary or whomever it is, he's done it to distract from something where his base, his people, the MAGA sphere, was inclined to already side with Him, Right. So he's under pressure in the Russian investigation. He calls it a hoax and attacks everybody.
- [16:36]
John Heilman
Right.
- [16:37]
Nicole Wallace
In this case, this is a conspiracy theory of the, the magazine creation, right? The concern about Epstein, the relentless focus on Epstein. I actually know what Tucker's talking about there. He's talking about the question of how did Epstein make his fortune? Who paid for this island? Was it some intellig agency? All these theories, right, they emanate from maga. So he can't say to them that the underlying issue that you're concerned about is a hoax and you should focus on Obama. So that's why it doesn't work, because it'd be like Obama getting elected president and then announcing, oh, you know what, there's nothing wrong with the American health care system that I campaigned on for two years. We're just going to ignore that. Move on. I mean, this is elemental to the identity of maga, the DNA of maga. And, and I think what he's betting, and we'll see how it plays out, is for 10 years, no matter what happened to him, he could always do this. He could always just yell Obama, yell hoax. And you know what? It's always worked, but never before has he done it to distract people from something that is so fundamental to the MAGA movement. And that's why I think he's in some trouble that he's not ever going to fully get out of. Even if he kind of gets through a few weeks, he's lost the trust of some people and he is not necessarily going to get that back.
- [17:56]
John Heilman
Emily, enter your phenomenal piece of reporting from the weekend. Take us through it. So I'm in Scotland right now with the President and his team, and what people have been telling me is that Trump is growing increasingly frustrated that this issue just won't go away. His team, which is normally very well equipped to handle issues that the President doesn't like and get them out of his sight. It's not working, as you guys have been talking about, and he's really getting annoyed about it.
- [18:28]
Nicole Wallace
Some of that you can see in.
- [18:30]
John Heilman
Public with the way he's handling reporter.
- [18:32]
Nicole Wallace
Questions on the subject. But some of it is coming up.
- [18:35]
John Heilman
In his private conversations and he's, he's getting annoyed that his staff can't figure.
- [18:41]
Nicole Wallace
Out how to get it to go away.
- [18:43]
John Heilman
Emily, who does he blame? That's a big question that we've been trying to figure out. His staff have a lot of feelings about who's at fault, and they're pointing.
- [18:56]
Nicole Wallace
Fingers at each other.
- [18:57]
John Heilman
What I've been told a few times now by a few different people is that the president learned from his first administration that firing top officials who are involved in things he doesn't like sometimes actually makes those stories live longer. And so I think he's learned to be a little bit more measured before speaking publicly or even expressing very pointedly who he thinks is the singular person at fault. I have a million more questions for all of you. I'm going to ask all of you to stick around. Also, head for us. Anti Trump protests have erupted in Europe while he's overseas playing golf at his resort in Scotland. Will show them to you. They come as he signs a trade deal that no one but him was interested in. Plus, Democrats are seizing the moment, a big name stepping into an important midterm race that could flip the US Senate as new voices in the Democratic Party are also making themselves heard in some very important and unconventional places. We'll talk with one of those voices and much more when Devlin Whitehouse continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
- [20:08]
Nicole Wallace
MSNBC's Jen Psaki, host of the Briefing.
- [20:11]
John Heilman
We've never experienced a moment like this in our country, and it leaves us.
- [20:15]
Nicole Wallace
All with a choice.
- [20:16]
John Heilman
Are we gonna speak out or are.
- [20:18]
Nicole Wallace
We gonna be pressured into silence?
- [20:19]
John Heilman
I've worked for presidents. I've faced the tough questions from the press and even threats from the Kremlin. And if there's one thing I've learned, it's that you can't cower to bullies. You don't need to be hopeless.
- [20:29]
Nicole Wallace
We have our voices and I will continue using mine. The Briefing with Jen Psaki Tuesday through Friday at 9:00pm Eastern on MSNBC. Hi, I'm Jon Lovett, host of Love it or Leave It. Every week I'm joined live on stage by incredible guests to break down the biggest and dumbest stories in politics and pop culture. And now, because there's too much news for just one show, join me and my friends, also known as beloved producers, who have to be there every Tuesday for a rundown of the latest headlines to help get you through another flawless week in our perfect society. Listen to episodes of Love it or Leave it wherever you get your podcasts or catch the funniest moments on the Love it or leave it YouTube channel. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access, ad free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace, why Is this Happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of All Your favorite MSNBC shows. Ad free and ad free. Listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple podcast. Trying to cover his butt. I know that they were good friends and I witnessed it.
- [21:57]
John Heilman
This is a serious issue. The highest volume of calls into my office have been about Epstein. There was a trio of ads from the Democratic National Committee airing online, taking on Donald Trump and the Republicans for their handling of the Epstein case. We're back with John, Emily and Ben. Ben, the facts of what they're doing in full view are so bad, you almost forget the behind the scenes maneuvering of the White House Director of Legislative affairs, otherwise known as the speaker of the House, Mike Johnson. He literally shut down Congress to cover up the Epstein files and to keep them from voting to release them. Something for which there was bipartisan support. What do you make of sort of the complicity now of the leadership among House Republicans who again, Cash Patel famously told to, quote, put on your big boy pants and tell us who the pedophiles are?
- [22:54]
Nicole Wallace
Well, I think it shows you what happened between the time that Mike Johnson expressed some openness to releasing the Epstein files or seeking the release of them and then his announcement that they're just going to shut down. Clearly he got a call from his actual boss who are not the voters who elected them. As somebody at the White House, it seems like I'm just guessing here, obviously, and shuts it down. Here's the problem. Number one, it's an unforced error, too, because this is not a hard story for Democrats to tell. They literally shut down the United States Congress for the rest of the summer to avoid this issue. That is easily understandable to somebody who's not a political junkie. It looks like you're going an extra mile to avoid facing this issue. The second thing is, I think the Republicans in Congress, like Trump himself, are accustomed to being able to distract people with the new shiny object to come back in September and say, oh, that, that thing that happened months ago, that's not a concern. Now we want you to focus on this, you know, this tariff threat or this immigration threat. The problem is, again, there is a body of years of work on this Epstein issue by MAGA people. This is not something that just popped up out of nowhere in the spring. This is something that they know about, that they've followed for many years. So they're not going to be less interested in it in September than they are now. So then the question is, does The Democratic Party have the discipline to do what it doesn't normally do, which is retain focus on an issue of political vulnerability for Trump. Thus far, it seems like they do. And it's good that people like Ro Khanna are out there taking lead on this. It's good that you've seen the leadership come behind it. It's good that you're seeing it in kind of campaign materials like this because you have to stay on this. You can't kind of go along with Trump throwing another shiny object like bullfighter in front of a bull and you chase it. Right. The thing is that people have to be just as focused on this in September as they are now. Mike Johnson, Donald Trump are betting the people won't be. I'm not sure that that's a winning bet.
- [24:47]
John Heilman
Okay, we're going to play Guess which Trump cabinet member, senior official said it. Quote, what possible interest would the US Government have in keeping Epstein's clients secret? Oh, if you are a journalist and you're not asking questions about this case, you should be ashamed of yourself. What purpose do you even serve? I'm sure there's a middle class teenager somewhere who could use some harassing right now, but maybe try to do your job once in a while. I won't make you guess. I will show you who said that on December 30, 2021 by showing you what he said today.
- [25:28]
Nicole Wallace
Well, let me say just a couple of things. First of all, the President has been very clear. We're not shielding anything. The President has directed the Attorney General to release all credible information and frankly, to go and find additional credible information related to the Jeffrey Epstein case. He's been incredibly transparent about that so stuff. But some of that stuff takes time. You've got to assemble that stuff, you've got to compile that stuff. You've got to redact some victims names so that you protect the victims. But the President has been very clear. He wants full transparency. He's asked that from the Attorney General. And I know because I talk to her all the time, the Attorney General is hard at work on that issue right now.
- [26:06]
John Heilman
So, Emily, quote, what possible interest would the US Government have in keeping Epstein's client? Secretary oh, if you're a journalist and you're not asking questions about this case, you should be ashamed of yourself. What was JD Vance talking about in 2021 and what is he talking about now? I mean, look, there's no question that the administration would now like to move on from this issue and that they believe that they have Nothing to hide, and actually acted in a transparent way by releasing the memo. I think there's some confusion internally because they thought it would land that way among Trump's base. Like, you know, hey, we could have just kept this moving, not said anything. Once we determined that there was nothing in here that was worth others seeing. But they decided to say something. It just turns out that the way in which they did it and the level of interest and passion that they had spent years and years and years building made that strategy a really vulnerable one. I mean, Hylman, that makes sense if the buildup for what they released was on the same planet or in the same solar system. I mean, that would be a perfectly acceptable explanation if people like J.D. vance hadn't said, if you're a journalist and you're not asking questions about this case, you should be ashamed of yourself. I mean, if you're a journalist not asking questions about the Jeffrey Epstein case in 2021, you now have someone in 2025 saying, there's nothing to see here. I mean, it really goes back to your point about Andrew Schultz. I think the podcast is called Flagrant. And Joe Rogan, these guys have to decide if they're going to be Trump's stooges. And it is perfectly fine for Lindsey Graham. He is happy to be Trump stooge. That's his choice. That's what he's shown the world. That is Mike Johnson's choice. That is Jim Jordan's choice. They have all opted in. But the moment in the manosphere, which I think is the largest sort of political cultural force field in our country right now, they get to decide if they are going to go down the path of Lindsey Graham and become sort of Trump's stooges and eunuchs, or if they're going to, like, say no, up is still up and down is down. And that feels like a moment that's even bigger than the Epstein story in our politics.
- [28:34]
Nicole Wallace
Oh, I totally agree. And I mean, you're talking about tens of millions of people listening to these podcasts. They're the biggest. They're the biggest things in podcasting. They are bigger than almost anything that people are watching in the space of news on broadcast or cable television. This is where the action is right now. Nicole and Joe Rogan is a massive force. Andrew Schultz is a massive force. They have huge audiences that listen to them for hours. It's not just that there's large numbers sitting and listening to two, three hour long versions of those shows. They're deep people who listen to those shows, are deeply immersed in them. And from what I have heard from Andrew Schultz and from Joe Rogan is I don't think either one of them is planning to be a patsy, is planning to be to do what Lindsey Graham and Jim Jordan are doing. They both, I mean, listening to Andrew Schultz last Friday, I think he's done with Trump. He spent most of his time now talking about Zorat Hamdani and trying to find somebody who's real out there because I think he feels as though Trump has now been revealed in a mask off moment to be exactly the kind of deep state elite protector of swamp creatures that he pretended not to be. And I'm starting to get the sense that Joe Rogan's in that same place also. And he's not. He keeps criticized Cash Patel on his show last Friday and I think he's not liking this one bit either. And I gotta say, just to the J.D. vance thing, I feel like I'm following this story pretty carefully. I know you are. I know the other panelists are also. Did I miss the moment when Donald Trump told Pam Bonney to release to just Pam, you need to redact all the names, but after you've redacted all the names and made sure that all third parties are are protected, please release the Epstein files. That's what J.D. vance, I believe, said in that clip. And again, if that's happened, it eludes me. I haven't heard Donald Trump make that announcement. I've heard Donald Trump go Hamana, humina Hamana humming for the last three weeks.
- [30:45]
John Heilman
Yeah, I mean, I think Trump is. Well, Emily, I'll let you answer that. Did we miss something? No, I don't think you've missed anything there. In short, I do think the president feels again that his administration has done exactly what he wanted them to do. Your point earlier, the president cares about who's asking the questions, not just what the questions are. And he wanted to give his people a chance to look at what was there and come to their own conclusions. And they did. And now he's asking his supporters to trust him. Yeah. And that's where he seems to be losing some of the late joiners. Emily, it's a fantastic piece of reporting. Thank you for joining us today. Talk about it. John and Ben stick around for the rest of the hour. Up next for us, not everyone is happy with the trade deal reached between the US And Europe with people there are now set to pay 15% more for most things. But even before that agreement, there was a whole host of people who were not happy, a whole host of other reasons. Our friends are our allies in Europe this weekend were not happy to see the President of the United States States. We'll bring you that story next. Not exactly a red carpet welcome for Donald Trump in Scotland this weekend. Groups of protesters popped up across a number of cities toting bagpipes, costumes, PG13 signage, you know, the works. These demonstrations were the backdrop for trade talks and an agreement between the EU and the U.S. among the terms of the deal, 15% tariffs on most EU goods entering the U.S. a figure that is lower than what Trump had threatened. A 50% rate on steel remains unchanged and other tariffs like one on pharmaceuticals could be imposed over time. We're back with John and Ben. Ben, a lot of the reporting centers on the fact that this was about trade and it wasn't about trade. Let me read this to you from the New York Times. Europe accepts the Trump trade deal with other worries and mine, quote, it's not only about the trade, it's about security. It's about Ukraine, it's about current geopolitical volatility. That's the EU Trade commissioner. He said that he could not go into the details of everything that was discussed in the room with Trump on Sunday, quote, but I can assure you it was not just about the trade. What I mean, I think I know what that means, but just take me inside what the undercurrents are here.
- [33:16]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah, I mean I talked to a lot of Europeans and I think there's a few things going on here versus we don't really know what this quote, unquote deal is. Trump has announced these with Japan, Vietnam, but it's not like a normal trade agreement when there's kind of carefully worded text and it's very clear. And I think part of it is these are short term deals to avoid worst case outcomes. Right. So the tariffs are bad, but they're not as bad as they were. Europe makes some trade offs, but they expect that the tariff Dow might go up again if Trump gets upset about something. So all this is kind of short term management of Trump, if you will, more than it is an effort to kind of comprehensively resolve trade differences between the United States and Europe. Related to that, I think you see the Europeans having decided that on Ukraine in particular, they were horrified after the Zelensky meeting in the Oval Office where Trump so clearly sided with Putin and they felt like the entire project was collapsing. Their capacity to support Ukraine absent. The United States is not where it needs to be in order for Ukraine to be afloat. So you saw this turn to flattery. It is not a coincidence that you had the NATO Secretary General calling Trump daddy right around the NATO meetings where he didn't want Trump to lash out or abandon Ukraine. Right. And so you constantly see the Europeans veering between do we flatter Trump when we're around him to try to keep him from abandoning Ukraine, to try to keep him from going even higher on tariffs, or do we have to come collectively stand up to him at times as they've also done? And I think the problem for the Europeans is, you know, they keep veering back and forth between flattery and competition and confrontation. Ultimately, they're just living day to day, news cycle to news cycle, event to event. They don't yet have an agreed upon, comprehensive approach for how to deal with Trump. They've got individual leaders with different theories of how to do it. And it leads to kind of half baked outcomes like this short term trade arrangement or like getting through the next kind of weapons shipment to the Ukrainians.
- [35:13]
John Heilman
Heilman it's about trade and foreign policy and our allies at one level. But it's also the oldest Trump story we've all been talking about and covering. It's about institutions, in this case the EU or NATO bending around the most volatile and dysfunctional family member. It's the story told in Mary Trump's book. It's the story told in Fred Trump book. It's the story of the end of the Republican Party as it's existed in any of our lifetimes. It's the story of the end of Congress as it surprisingly happened in this second Trump presidency over the last six months. It's the story of the end of Columbia University's academic freedom. It's the story of the end of Paul Weiss as it existed since its founding. It's the story of Trump ending things because he's convinced his base that it will be better without these institutions. But the political peril seems to be there's no evidence that anything good is coming out of this for Americans except more expensive imports. Right?
- [36:16]
Nicole Wallace
Well, and quite the contrary, Nicole, to your point, I mean, there have been a lot of companies, which is really what we're talking about here. There are the political institutions. There is a deal with Europe and what does that mean when we have a deal with Europe? We're really talking about there are a bunch of European manufacturers, there are a bunch of European services providers. There's a bunch of companies that are based in the European Union who are now being hit with at whatever level the tariffs get set in this deal, they are higher than they were before. That has an impact on the real driver of this, which is that which are those forces, the economic forces, the market, the free market, that Since World War II, the relationship between the United States and Europe, and then eventually the EU was one of the bedrocks of the global economy. Now, the major actors in Europe recognize the capriciousness of the president, understand that they are going to be paying more, they are going to be suffering from these tariffs. This is all just putting aside the question of higher prices on goods that every Wall street analyst says eventually, with these levels, which are not as bad as they could be, but are worse than what they were, that people are eventually going to pay, whether that's in Q3 or Q4. But if you're talking about what Trump's destroying, Trump's not just putting a dent into the institutions of the European Union as a political arrangement. He's putting a dent into a more fundamental and powerful thing, which is the relationship between the United States economy and the European economy and is rebalancing and changing the way that those companies in Europe think about the world and who they want to do business with, which countries they want to focus on, which consumers they want to focus on, what regimes they want to. They think they have more maneuverability with. All of that is changing in a profound way. That is not going to be where things are not going to look the way they have looked pretty much for the past 75 years going forward. And no one I know thinks it's going to look better.
- [38:20]
John Heilman
Yeah. I mean, and rebalance is a word that he's hijacked to mean that we get a better deal. It means that the balance is with a different country. Right. Like a different customer base and not with us. We end up out of whack, very much unbalanced because of Donald Trump's capriciousness, which is the right word. All right, I need you guys to stick around a little bit longer. Up next for the three of us, more signs of chaos at the Pentagon under Defense Secretary Pete Heg says surprise, surprise. The latest one involves threats of polygraphs. And this, too, is a story of discontent and chafing and chaos inside the deepest corners of maga. Complaints went from Hegset's inner circle to Trump's inner circle at the White House. We'll explain next. Signal gate didn't do it, as far as we know. But Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth has finally earned a rare rebuke from the White House over his obsessive paranoia about leakers inside the Pentagon. The Washington Post is reporting that the White House intervention, which has not been previously reported on, came after a senior advisor to Pete Hegseth raised alarm to senior officials there about being targeted. U.S. officials and others familiar with the matter said that adviser Patrick Weaver complained to White House officials this spring with concerns that he could soon be directed by Hegseth or another member of his team to submit to a polygraph test. The people familiar with the matter said the possibility angered Weaver, an immigration hawk seen within the administration as a loyal foot soldier to President Donald Trump, an associate of White House Deputy Chief of Staff Stephen Miller, officials said. Speaking anonymously out of concerns for reprisal from the Trump administration, the Pentagon declined to respond directly to the Washington Post reporting about the polygraph test. John and Ben are back. Benroads We've both been in government and had clearances and the polygraph is a tool within the government, but it is a tool, sort of a last resort used in specific and narrow national security ways not to prevent leaks about what a hot mess Pete Hegseth is. And that is clearly the deployment of the polygraph inside the Pentagon. I think it's amazing that we know about this. What do you see in this reporting?
- [40:46]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, first of all, yeah, it's exceedingly rare. I mean, I don't think I know people that were like polygraphed as a routine matter of business, maybe like deep CIA operative candidates, that kind of thing. Look, I think what we can take from this is, first of all, Nicole, not exactly a surprise that Pete Hegseth is a volatile personality with some personal disciplinary issues kind of sense of paranoia. I mean, this was all on lots of display in his confirmation hearing and all the reporting around it. So we shouldn't be surprised a few months in that it turns out that Pete Hegseth is an unusual personality type to be running a huge bureaucracy like the Pentagon. And that should concern people, right? Because if this guy is coming to work and paranoid about leaks and paranoid about loyalty tests and directing polygraphs, he's not exactly overseeing a trillion dollar budget and all the various crises that may emerge in the Pentagon, what's going to happen when we're in a real national security crisis? And Pete Hegseth is more worried about whether somebody at the table has been polygraphed or not. So there are real world concerns that people should have about this. The only other thing I'd say is based on your question, we're learning about this. My sense In Trump stories like this is there's usually like an iceberg underneath the thing we're learning. So if one guy is being polygraphed, I'm just guessing, I don't know this, but I would imagine that there' are lots of other kind of polygraphs happening. And look, what it does is it kind of destroys trust among the team that you are building.
- [42:16]
John Heilman
Right.
- [42:16]
Nicole Wallace
And, you know, we're only six months into this thing. Some of those people will leave and they'll be unhappy. Some of those people. I don't. They're polygraphing the FBI. The same people that are being kind of polygraphed and hectored for loyalty might be the people who are asked to do things that are uncomfortable for them, whether it's around the Epstein files at DOJ or something @ the Pentagon. And so what this tells me is he's kind of losing the people around him with this kind of insane focus on loyalty, and that the questions about his temperament and fitness for that job were asked for very good reasons.
- [42:49]
John Heilman
Yeah, I mean, Michael Feinberg is the FBI agent who was denied a promotion and basically run out of the FBI. And a threat of a polygraph was part of his purging from the FBI. So the other agency that we know, the polygraph is being used outside of its typical narrow, rare deployment inside the US Government is the FBI, also run by personalities who fall into a lot of the same descriptions that Ben just offered for Hagset. But this is almost like the Epstein story, where these are not. I mean, they wanted to polygraph some of the remaining experienced generals. This is also in the Post report. Tested had been threatened by HEGSETH against others, including two top military officers. Navy Admiral Christopher Grady, the Vice chair of the Joint Chiefs of staff, and Army Lt. Gen. Doug Sims, the Director of the Joint Staff. Those threats were first reported by the Wall Street Journal. But this is about a threat for a political at the Pentagon who went to the White House and asked for an intervention. To Ben's point about tip of the iceberg, it suggests that the treatment of the careers is far worse, and there's only a story or an intervention when MAGA ensnares another MAGA figure.
- [44:11]
Nicole Wallace
Yes, I agree with that. That makes sense. Will you allow me to be more. Will you allow me to be more superficial in my analysis than either you or Ben?
- [44:21]
John Heilman
You guys have been way too substantive, I swear.
- [44:24]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, I admire the substance. Ben's a very substantive guy. I read this story and thought that there's a bunch of people in the White House who are after Pete Hegseth. They're like trying to, they want Pete Hegseth Scout. That's what I read in this thing. I thought Pete Hegseth has managed to engender a lot of hostility in Trump world because the one thing we've seen in Trump 2.0, unlike in Trump 1.0, it's been not a very leaky shop. There's not been like the crazy leaks that were constant in the first four years of Trump. When this thing becomes public in this way, I'm thinking. And Pete Hanks's days are numbered because some of Donald Trump's allies want him gone.
- [45:01]
John Heilman
Yeah. I mean it does bring you back to, I mean, you'd have to turn your ringer off because the calls came from the West Wing so fast and furiously of this one leaking about that one. I mean. Yeah. And the turnover of all the chiefs of staff. It is a news cycle a little bit reminiscent of that. We'll see if it holds. Ben Rhodes, thank you for elevating us into the subject substance. Thank you for spending the hour with us. John sticks around a little bit.
- [45:26]
Nicole Wallace
See, we were to drag us further down. I'm going to stick around. You back in. All the way down.
- [45:33]
John Heilman
We need you. We all have our roles to fill. Right. We need you for that. Up next for us, Donald Trump versus Rupert Murdoch. Why Trump is asking for an expedited deposition of his one time buddy, the media mogul and his multi billion dollar defamation lawsuit against the Wall Street Journal. In news I didn't have on my bingo card. Donald Trump's lawyers are asking to depose Rupert Murdoch ASAP in a new court filing today in his defamation case against the Wall Street Journal over the Wall Street Journal's reporting on Donald Trump's birthday. Message to Jeffrey Epstein. Their motion asks for Murdoch to be deposed within 15 days with Trump's attorneys implying that Murdoch at age 94 will either be too ill or dead to testify by the time the $10 billion lawsuit goes to trial with friends like that. Donald Trump's lawyers also allege that when one of the Wall Street Journal reporters reached out to the White House to ask about the birthday letter in question, quote, President Trump reached out to and spoke directly with Murdoch and advised him that the letter referenced in the article was fake. Murdoch advised President Trump that he would take care of it. The judge in the case ruled Murdoch's Lawyers have until August 4th to respond to Team Trump's requests. We'll stay on top of the story for you up next. For us, a 36 year old Texas Democrat getting a whole lot of attention right now. James Talarico will be our guest when we come back. Don't go anywhere.
- [47:11]
Nicole Wallace
As President Trump continues implementing his ambitious agenda, follow along with MSNBC's newest newsletter, Project 47. You'll get weekly updates sent straight to your inbox with expert analysis on the administration's latest actions and how they're affecting the American people.
- [47:28]
John Heilman
The American people are basically telling the President that they are not okay with any of this.
- [47:32]
Nicole Wallace
Sign up for the Project 47 newsletter at MSNBC. Start your day with the MSNBC daily newsletter. Sharp insights from voices you trust, standout moments from your favorite shows, and fresh perspectives from experts shaping the news. Sign up now@msnbc.com in the context of this Jeffrey Epstein scandal and their refusal to share information to the American people.
- [48:09]
John Heilman
Despite promising to do so, one must.
- [48:13]
Nicole Wallace
Ponder the question, what are they hiding from the American people? Giving people feel that the rich and the powerful have been not held accountable, that they have a different set of rules, and that there may be government officials involved. Donald Trump campaigned to release the files. This was central to what he wanted to do. And we owe it to the American public to store trust there.
- [48:36]
John Heilman
Hi again, Everybody. It's now 5 o' clock in the East. As the rift in the Republican Party deepens over the Trump administration's really terrible handling of the Jeffrey Epstein case and the politics around it. Democrats are seizing the moment, A seemingly reignited and unified party. Democrats are not letting the issue go, making sure to hold the GOP's feet to the fire on this one. The Epstein scandal, along with the recently passed bill by Republicans that cuts back on the safety net Senate and kicks millions of people off their health care, may be giving Democrats the opportunity to take back control of the narrative and eventually of Congress. In the midterms this morning, Roy Cooper, former governor of North Carolina, entered the race for his state Senate seat, a bright spot for Democrats considering his proven ability to win statewide in a state that voted for Donald Trump in the last three elections. Take a listen to his message today.
- [49:33]
Nicole Wallace
For too many Americans, the middle class feels like a distant dream. Meanwhile, the biggest corporations and the richest Americans have grabbed unimaginable wealth at your expense. It's time for that to change. Right now, our country's facing a moment as fragile as any I can remember. And the decisions we make in the next election will determine if, if we even have a middle class in America anymore. I never really wanted to go to Washington. I just wanted to serve the people of North Carolina right here where I've lived all my life, that these are not ordinary times.
- [50:13]
John Heilman
Now, Governor Cooper will join my colleague Rachel tonight at 9. And his candidacy, the candidacy of Cooper, a successful and tested Democrat, gives the party reason for optimism to flip a Senate seat. The party has simultaneously been clamoring for fresh faces and new voices for a new generation to come in and help usher in change and engage voters and frankly, help rebrand the party. Enter James talarico. He's a 36 year old democratic state representative from the Austin area. He's currently a seminary student. He drew this comment from podcaster Joe Rogan recently.
- [50:55]
Nicole Wallace
If you have so much interest in getting to the bottom of this, like universally on both sides of the aisle, and yet nothing gets done, that, that tends to give people this.
- [51:10]
John Heilman
This, this fear that cynicism is the correct perspective.
- [51:14]
Nicole Wallace
And, and I want to, I want to validate that, that there is reason and good reasons to be disillusioned. I guess all I'm pushing back on is that second step of it's always going to be this way. Right. It doesn't have to be this way. That is the key step.
- [51:29]
John Heilman
Right.
- [51:29]
Nicole Wallace
So I'm not on because you need to run for president. We need someone who's actually a good person.
- [51:38]
John Heilman
Tellarigo may not be mulling a presidential bid at the moment, despite being called a good person from Joe Rogan, but he is seriously considering a run for the U.S. senate. The state representative appearance on Joe Rogan's podcast, as well as his massive following on social media. He has nearly 1 million followers on TikTok and a proven ability to work with Republicans in the Texas state legislature are causing many to ask, is he the future, the future of the Democratic Party, at least as a Fort Worth Star Telegram noted, quote. Since his appearance on the online Joe Rogan experience, Talarico is drawing in crowds twice the size of the meeting hall, even in red, turning purple. Collin County, Texas. That is where we start the hour with Texas State Representative James Talarico. Thank you very much for being here with us.
- [52:27]
Nicole Wallace
Thank you for having me. I'm a huge fan of yours, Nicole, so thanks for having me on the show.
- [52:32]
John Heilman
Well, thank you so much for saying that. I want to ask you first about that exchange with Joe Rogan about your response. It's been my theory throughout my career that the only thing that stays the same in politics is that it's always changing and we are always one leader away from something totally different. That if you love it or hate it, you're one leader away from something totally different. Do you believe that or do you think our politics have changed for the worse in this moment?
- [53:00]
Nicole Wallace
Well, you know, the reason I went on Joe Rogan's show is because I think that my party has to get outside of its comfort zone. We've got to go in, been to places where we don't normally go to talk to people we don't normally talk to because we need a bigger tent, we need a bigger coalition if we're going to win back power in this country. And in states like Texas. I just got finished with a brutal legislative session. Republican extremism means that my constituents can't get basic health care. It means that schools are closing across my community, across my district. And so we have a moral imperative to win. Not just to talk, not just to protest, but to actually win political power to make people's lives better. I mean, that's the whole reason we're doing this. And so that's why I went on his show. It's why I've been on Fox News. It's why I've been on the Christian Broadcasting Network, so that people can hear directly from a Democratic elected officials about my values and our vision for this country. Country.
- [54:02]
John Heilman
What are your values and what is your vision? What are you communicating on these shows?
- [54:07]
Nicole Wallace
Well, you mentioned in your intro about my faith, it's the foundation of everything I do. My granddad was a Baptist preacher in South Texas. And I remember when I was real little, he told me that our religion, Christianity, is a simple religion, not an easy religion, but a simple religion, because Jesus gave us two commandments. Love God and love neighbor. And so that's what I do at the state capitol. I lower people's prescription drug costs. I expand access to child care. I reform our justice system. I try to fund our neighborhood schools. That's my way of trying to love my neighbor through public policy. It's also what I did as a public school teacher. And so that love for other people, including people who are different from me, people who may not agree with me, with me, I think that's what's missing in our, our civic discourse these days. It feels like there's a real lack of love in our national conversation. And I think people are, are hungry for that. We've had 10 years of politics as bloodsport, politics as professional wrestling. I think people are, are ready for something different. Earnestness and sincerity and, and love. And I do think those things are going to make a comeback in 2026.
- [55:26]
John Heilman
Are you at all worried that Kamala Harris campaign about joy was rejected and a message of love could be rejected as well.
- [55:36]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, I think that was one of the most successful parts of that campaign was that joy. So, you know, when you lose an election by a point and a half, it's important not to under learn lessons or overlearn lessons. And there were some wonderful parts about that campaign and I think the joyfulness was one of the best parts. And I think we need to double down on that going forward. But you know, one thing I think we could have done a better job of is, is putting the vice president in positions where she could talk directly to folks who don't always hear from a Democrat. And Joe Rogan's show is, is a place where you can do that. It's a little scary because, you know, I wasn't given a list of topics or questions. I was going in kind of blind. It was a two and a half hour interview with a host who is not necessarily a, you know, considered a Democrat or a progressive. But I think we hit it off and I think we really connected on some key issues.
- [56:30]
John Heilman
I mean, you're making a point about connection and I wonder how much you think that the Democrats need to connect or if it's that the Democrats need to moderate. What is your diagnosis of why the Democrats? I'm shocked by this. As a former Republican who's voted for Democrats without thinking twice in the last three presidential elections, the Democrats are at their lowest approval rating in decades. I think 63% of Americans disapprove of the Democratic Party. Is your diagnosis that it's around substance or is your diagnosis that it's around a lack of connection or a combination of the two?
- [57:12]
Nicole Wallace
Well, and I would say that there are probably a lot of self identified Democrats who also disapprove of the current state of the Democratic Party. And there are a lot of folks in red states like Texas who frankly are dissatisfied with the way the national Democratic Party fails to compete in, in red and, and in even purple parts of the country. We can't be a party that's isolated to the coasts or the big cities. We've got to be a party that competes everywhere and competes for every single vote. You know, I flipped a Trump district when I first got elected in 2018. I was running in district that hadn't voted for a democr since before I was in kindergarten. And I did that by knocking on literally thousands of doors, talking directly to people about why I'm doing this and who I'm fighting for and what I'M trying to change. And you know, people didn't agree with me on every single issue, but I told them that you can always count on me to be honest and you can always count on me to tell you exactly where I am on an issue, and I will always have an open door for you to try to change my mind. And that kind of, you know, shooting straight with people, I think means a lot in this current environment. So I, I, in my experience, whether as a teacher or as an elected official or as a candidate, people don't change their behaviors unless there's a relationship, unless there is a connection, unless there's a bond. And that's what we have to rebuild. It's why I, I went on that podcast and I, I shared a, a teaching from my faith that we have to love our enemies. And that's a scary thing to do, especially when the stakes are so high. But if we can build that authentic bond with people who may be on the other side of an issue, I think it could transform our politics and help save this American experiment.
- [59:06]
John Heilman
I worked for George W. Bush after he was a very bipartisan governor of Texas because Texas was, was still interested. His lieutenant, the lieutenant governor was Bob Bullock, a Democrat. I mean, what has happened to Texas that some of the most extreme Republicans in the country have a lock on power in Texas?
- [59:28]
Nicole Wallace
You know, I was a young kid when Governor Bush and Bob Bullock were making bipartisan public policy. But I benefited from those policies. I went to well funded public schools. I went to a well funded public university. It's how I, as the, as a, as a kid who was born to a single mom who didn't get to go to college, got to graduate from the University of Texas because of that bipartisan policymaking that was attempting to solve real problems, not just, you know, engage in culture war fights. You know, the thing I would, my diagnosis is that it is the system itself that's broken. You know, we oftentimes in the media or in our political discourse, we focus on the personalities and when in reality, the system itself, whether it's a campaign finance system that allows for way too much influence from big money, or a redistricting system that creates these hyper polarized districts where your only competition is in the primary, meaning you only have to please your most extreme flank. Rather than appealing to a broad cross section of the electorate, those systematic features of our political system are leading to more extreme policymaking and to a less fruitful civic discourse. So I know it may not be as exciting to talk about some of these Processes. Unless we clean up that system and make it actually work for people, we're not going to see better policy making on either side of it.
- [61:02]
John Heilman
I mean, it's a little weedsy, but our viewers are very steeped in the kinds of policy and process points you're talking about. Beto o' Rourke was here last week talking about not just what's happening in Texas, what I know you're in the middle of, but what's happening nationally. I mean, do you support Democratic governors fighting fire with fire and using some of the same tactics that Republicans are using in deep red states?
- [61:27]
Nicole Wallace
I do, but with one caveat. We cannot take our eyes off the prize. And the prize is not a descending spiral of partisanship. The prize is not tit for tat and partisan warfare where every state is gerrymandered. That is not the goal. That is not the vision. The goal is for eventually every state to have a citizen led independent redistricting commission where voters are picking their politicians, not the other way around. Now, that said, we cannot let the bullies win in this fight. Appeasement doesn't work. And just to lay down and let this happen is not acceptable. I mean, the American experiment is on the line and we've got to match energy. I just want to make sure that our party doesn't lose sight of what we're fighting for because it can be real easy to do that when you're, when you're in these tense situations. So I'm trying to remind my colleagues here in Texas what we're ultimately fighting for. And we are not just fighting for the blue team. We are not just fighting for the Democratic Party. We are fighting for fair maps and fair elections and a fair process where everyone can have their voice heard in the Democratic system.
- [62:41]
John Heilman
You said a moment ago that among the 63% of Americans who, who don't approve of the Democratic Party, you would guess that there are a lot of Democrats. What do you think Democrats don't like right now about the Democratic Party?
- [62:55]
Nicole Wallace
I'm sure the list is long, but I do think there is an, a hunger for a, to see more of a fight from the Democratic Party. You know, here in Texas, we haven't won a statewide election in 30 years. We've been in the minority in places like the State House where I serve. But that's not an excuse not to fight. You know, sometimes I hear from Democrats at the national level and they say, well, I'm not in the majority, so there's nothing I can do. I know as a Texas Democrat, there's plenty that you can do in the minority. You can use the rules, you can use your platform. You can organize and inspire people. And yes, you can even take extreme measures like denying quorum, which is something that my colleagues and I are considering as we face this unprecedented power grab here in Austin during the special session. Having a fighting spirit is something that I learned from my mom, who escaped an abusive situation to protect me and fight for our little family. It's something I saw in my students on the west side of San Antonio who had to fight every single day to overcome poverty and racism and systems that were designed to hold them back. I think people want to see Democrats embody that fighting spirit again. We have to have folks who will actually fight for people and not give up so easily. That, at least from my perspective, is what folks want to see out of the Democratic Party at the national level.
- [64:21]
John Heilman
Now we hear that, too. They want to see the moments where Democrats have stood up and fought for something, even if it's symbolic, even if they're still in the minority, that is what people are hungry. I want to ask you one last question about why you think you're having this moment, why you think Joe Rogan wanted you on, why you think Democrats and Republicans are so curious about you and interested in hearing from you right now. Your events have exploded in size, and it's not just because of one appearance. What do you think it is?
- [64:52]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah, I held an event in Plano, Texas, last week. It's a red part of the state. Democrats don't typically win. I thought Maybe I'd have 100, maybe 200 people show up. More than a thousand people showed up at this bar. There wasn't enough room, so we actually had to fill the bar across the street. And to me, that reveals a deep hunger for a new generation of leadership, and I think in particular, new leaders who are authentic. Some people have asked me about my advice on messaging, and I don't like that word messaging, because it just feels so sterile and synthetic. And I say I always just have two rules, which is be yourself and tell the truth. And those two things have never led me astray. What another Democratic elected official or candidate may talk about will be different from what I talk about because we're different people. But as long as you are true to yourself and as long as you're honest with the people that you want to represent, I think it will break through. And I think after 10 years of Donald Trump, people are hungry for that kind of morally authentic leadership again in this country.
- [66:01]
John Heilman
Well, I hope you'll come back and keep us posted. We've followed other moments in the state legislature there. So please come back and keep us posted as you as you wage your fight for your constituents there in Texas. State Representative James Talerico, it's a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you for starting us off.
- [66:21]
Nicole Wallace
Thanks for having me.
- [66:23]
John Heilman
We're going to sneak in a quick break on the other side. We will bring in our panel. Also ahead for us this hour, another story that has energized Democrats is the outrage over the plane gifted to Donald Trump from the government of Qatar. It's supposed to be the new Air Force One. He gets to keep it afterward. Trump says it's free, but there's brand new reporting about the huge price tag for taxpayers and the secret Defense Department budget tactic that might be paying for it. All said then, White House continues. Continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. Joining our conversation in progress, host of the Fast Politics podcast, Infinity Fair, special correspondent MSNBC political analyst Molly Jong Fast is here. Lucky for us, John Heilman is also still with us. Molly, James Tallarico, your thoughts.
- [67:21]
Nicole Wallace
He's amazing and he's doing a thing.
- [67:24]
John Heilman
Which I had been so trying to sort of say how important it was for such a long time, which is he's going to the place where the voters are, right?
- [67:35]
Nicole Wallace
The only way to get in front.
- [67:37]
John Heilman
Of Joe Rogan's, you know, millions, tens of millions and tens and tens of millions of viewers is to go on his show.
- [67:46]
Nicole Wallace
And that I think is so important. The other thing I would say about.
- [67:49]
John Heilman
Joe Rogan is you'll remember, remember, Joe Rogan endorsed Bernie Sanders in 2016.
- [67:55]
Nicole Wallace
The reason that Trump was able to.
- [67:58]
John Heilman
Take this ground, right, the podcaster bro landscape, was because Democrats at least ceded it by not going on in these spaces.
- [68:06]
Nicole Wallace
And they made decisions about why not.
- [68:09]
John Heilman
To go into these spaces. That may have been the right decisions.
- [68:12]
Nicole Wallace
At the time, but now are clearly not how to run for office. You can't get in front of these voters any other way but going on.
- [68:20]
John Heilman
These podcasts and maybe they're not, maybe don't endorse all of their theories and all of their beliefs. You still have to go there because that's where the voters are.
- [68:30]
Nicole Wallace
And I think Telarico makes a really great point of doing that.
- [68:33]
John Heilman
And again, Fox, all of these different spaces because some of these spaces, viewers will not see a Democrat. And so you have to transmit this information.
- [68:42]
Nicole Wallace
And when the mainstream media is so.
- [68:44]
John Heilman
Small and so splintered, this is the only way to get in front of voters. And so it's by necessity that, that Democrats have to go in these spaces.
- [68:53]
Nicole Wallace
And Tellarico did a really great job and he showed that you can absolutely go in these spaces and you can win these voters over. And we've seen a lot of Democrats go on Rogan and really do well. And it's two and a half hours.
- [69:04]
John Heilman
It's hard, but you can definitely do it. I mean, Heilman, what I find interesting about him is he's someone that Joe Rogan wanted to have on. Right. It's not just you show up when asked. You have to. They have to want to have you on. Because unlike, I mean, we have an obligation, right? It's the media. We have to cover everyone, whether they're entertaining and. Or. I mean, Joe Rogan doesn't have to have someone on if he thinks he'll be bored out of his frickin mind after five minutes. I mean, we do. Joe Rogan gets to have on whomever he wants. And he can talk about the pyramids or he can talk about Ivermectin, or he can talk about. He could talk about whatever he wants. And so I think it's even one step before that. Talarico is someone that he wanted to talk to. It's about sort of the basic human EQ stuff.
- [69:56]
Nicole Wallace
Yes. And look, I think it's even more than even beyond the human EQ stuff. The truism now that politics are downstream from culture. Culture and that our politics are not determined. What side you're on is not so much determined by left versus right or by policy preferences or by or strictly by ideology, but by things like where you live and where you sit in the culture. It really comes through with James Tallarico. He is a deeply devout person, Nicole. He is a pastor who is studying to get his Master's Divinity at Texas Presbyterian Theological Seminary. He speaks the language of faith and he goes on with Joe Rogan and he says things like there is a moral clarity lacking. I'm almost quoting him. There's a moral clarity lacking in our politics and public life that only religious leaders can bring to it. That is a message that a lot of secular Democrats are going to be uncomfortable with. Joe Rogan is not uncomfortable with that. And I will say Talarico also said the thing about how he doesn't think politics are so much along the spectrum of left and right and that he thinks it's more about top and bottom, more about the power, but the powerful versus ordinary people that is the kind of language that appeals to Joe Rogan. It's the kind to see him on his TikTok page where he has the million followers, but the most viral of those videos, where he's taking on.
- [71:32]
John Heilman
The.
- [71:32]
Nicole Wallace
People on the far right of the religious right, Christian nationalists in the Texas legislature, pushing legislation to force the display of the Ten Commandments in classrooms and where he takes them on, on religious grounds, on scriptural grounds. Those are powerful, powerful clips. There are not a lot of Democrats out there who have the kind of fluency with that kind of language and those kind of values. He says stuff that a lot of Democrats don't say or aren't comfortable saying. And part of the reason why Joe Rogan finds him compelling is because he's not what Joe Rogan would say is a caricature, coastal elite, secular, condescending Democrat. Now, again, I'm not buying all of that as the way Democrats all are, but I'm telling you, that's why he finds a comfortable seat at a time table of Joe Rogan and why he's a potent figure in Texas, because he can speak to people in Texas from a position that a lot of coastal elite and often secular Democrats can't speak to them or haven't been able to speak to them so far. He's a different kind of guy. And the different kind of guy thing is what's driving this beyond his communication skills, which are off the charts.
- [72:47]
John Heilman
Yeah, super interesting and super. I like the word fluent. We'll keep this conversation going. Definitely something to keep an eye on. John Halman, thank you for sticking around over the two hours. We are grateful when you do that. Molly, we're going to have you stick around a little bit longer with us. When we come back, there's new reporting about the cost of Donald Trump's so called free but not at all free new Air Force One, the one he got as a present from, and the secret government budget that might be paying for it.
- [73:24]
Nicole Wallace
I could be a stupid person to say, oh no, we don't want a free plane, we give free things out. We'll take one too. And it helps us out because again, we're talking about we have 40 year old aircraft. The money we spend, the maintenance we spend on those planes to keep them tippy top is astronomical. You wouldn't even believe it.
- [73:44]
John Heilman
I could be a stupid person if you want me to. What's actually been hard to believe from the start is Donald Trump's public utterances about his Air Force One gift from Qatar, his palace in the sky, which has been his line on the plane. A no brainer, a freebie for him and all of America. Why wouldn't he take it while keeping the cost to taxpayers, the actual costs from necessary security, renovations to any gold trim he wants to add? Classified but now the New York Times is pulling the curtain back and reporting that there might be a hint in a quote, mysterious $934 million transfer of funds from one of the Pentagon's most over budget, out of control projects, the modernization of America's aging ground based nuclear missiles. More from that report quote. In recent weeks, Congressional budget sleuths have come to think that amount slipped into an obscure Pentagon document sent to Capitol Hill as a transfer to an unnamed classified project. Almost certainly includes the renovation of the new gold adorned Air Force One that Trump desperately wants in the air before his term is over. Quote. It is not clear if the entire transfer will be devoted to stripping the new Air Force One back to its airframe, but Air Force officials privately acknowledged dipping into nuclear modernization funds for the complex project. Joining our conversation is national security reporter for the Washington Post, John Hudson. He's been reporting about the new Trump plane as well. Molly is still with us. John, what do we know about where the money is hidden to retrofit Donald Trump's gift, AKA the free Air Force One?
- [75:29]
Nicole Wallace
Well, as you know, the New York Times ripped the lid off this story and it was taken from, it's believed to be taken from nuclear modernization funds. The Pentagon spends massive amounts of money to modernize the United States nuclear arsenal. And according to the Times, the money is being taken from that portion of the budget that would go towards that and into the budget to modernize this plane and make it Air Force One ready. I mean that, that's something that experts from a variety of different political persuasions have said is going to cost hundreds of millions of dollars at a minimum. And so you can't just take that out of, you know, that doesn't just come from a small part of the Pentagon budget, that comes from a significant portion, in this case the nuclear modernization front. And so that's where it is reportedly being taken from. And because the administration has decided to make information about Air Force One classified, it's been extremely difficult for reporters and members of Congress to ascertain exactly how the administration plans to pay for this.
- [76:48]
John Heilman
But the objective is to get it operational while he's president so he can then take it with him when he's no longer president.
- [76:57]
Nicole Wallace
Exactly. The President took a tour of this so called palace in the sky earlier this year. He was dazzled by its leather interior, all of the different really luxury aspects of this plane, and wanted it to be his as soon as possible.
- [77:16]
John Heilman
Molly, it is so cringe. He was dazzled by a tour of a plane, and he wanted it to be his. It's like how you talk about a kid in a toy store.
- [77:26]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah.
- [77:26]
John Heilman
And I mean, I also think it's like the reason we have the Hatch act or the reason we used to have the Hatch act on Earth one.
- [77:33]
Nicole Wallace
You know, there are all these little.
- [77:35]
John Heilman
Ethics sort of rules, and if you disobey one, you sort of start down this road.
- [77:42]
Nicole Wallace
And that's where we are.
- [77:43]
John Heilman
Right, is this road where Trump no longer thinks that these ethics protocols are for him. And so we're seeing money from the Pentagon.
- [77:54]
Nicole Wallace
We don't know where, you know, the.
- [77:56]
John Heilman
Money, the defense money going towards something.
- [77:58]
Nicole Wallace
And we don't know what it's going to.
- [78:00]
John Heilman
But the number sure looks like, I mean, this is how we got here. I also want to point out just the BBB for a minute. Republicans passed this bill that increases Pentagon spending, ICE spending, and decreases what, SNAP and Medicaid spending.
- [78:15]
Nicole Wallace
So this money is allocated. Right. But we are in a moment where we can't feed hungry children, we're cutting.
- [78:24]
John Heilman
Medicaid benefits for people, and yet we're.
- [78:27]
Nicole Wallace
Making sure that Donald Trump has a new plane. And I just think it really shows.
- [78:31]
John Heilman
Where the priorities of this administration are. It's such a good point about how much we bake in because they don't follow the Hatch Act. We don't cover the violations of the Hatch act because. Because they haven't followed it ever. But it's still, under any normal presidency, a major violation and break of laws and norms. John Hudson, Molly Jong Fast, thank you both so much for spending time with us. When we come back, outrage and grief over the suffering of children in Gaza. What aid groups are doing to try to help them. That's next. Mr. President, Prime Minister Netanyahu said there's no starvation in Gaza. Do you agree with that assessment?
- [79:17]
Nicole Wallace
I don't know. I mean, based on television, I would say not particularly, because those children look very hungry. Some of those kids are. That's real starvation stuff. I see it. And you can't fake that.
- [79:31]
John Heilman
Based on television. Says the man with access to the world's finest intelligence products. But it is notable. Donald Trump earlier today in one of his most significant breaks with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. As outrage grows across the globe over the starvation of Palestinians amid Israel's months long blockade of the Gaza Strip, deaths from famine have been rising with humanitarian experts warning that the situation has reached a tipping point. More than 63 Palestinians have died this month from starvation, including a five month old baby who died on Friday after not being able to get baby formula due to the blockade. That's according to reporting in the Washington Post. Amid massive international pressure, Israel said it would allow countries to airdrop food into Gaza starting yesterday. However, the UN called it, quote, a drop in the ocean and aid groups are urging that Israel instead remove its blockade and allow sufficient aid into the region. The humanitarian crisis in Gaza has sparked backlash in Israel with Israelis taking to the streets holding pictures of starving children in Gaza to protest the blockade. The New York Times reporting this quote, some prominent Israelis have also raised alarms. Ehud Olmert, a former prime minister, decried what he called the quote, cruel and criminal killing of civilians and the starvation of Gaza as a government policy. Moshe Yalan, a former military chief and defense minister, has warned for months of ethnic cleansing. Yir Golan, a former deputy chief of the military and leader of the Democrats, a left leaning opposition party, caused a furor when he said the government was killing babies as a hobby. And two leading Israeli human rights groups today saying Israel's war in Gaza amounts to genocide. Joining our coverage is International Rescue Committee's Vice president of Emergencies and Humanitarian action, Bob Kitchen. Thank you so much for being here.
- [81:33]
Nicole Wallace
Thank you.
- [81:35]
John Heilman
Tell us what is happening right now in Gaza.
- [81:39]
Nicole Wallace
Well, the situation is spinning out of control. As you said. There is one in five children in Gaza City have been surveyed in the last few days as being acutely malnourished. That's a stark data point in and of itself. But what's more concerning is that that's triple the number of four weeks ago. So the situation is spinning out of control very, very rapidly. The thing to keep in mind is.
- [82:07]
John Heilman
That once the world is capable of.
- [82:10]
Nicole Wallace
Actually declaring famine, it's often way too late by that point. As we look back on the famine in 2011 in East Africa, by the point that fam famine was formally declared, 250,000 people had already died. That's where we stand right now. People are dying already and we're not taking the action that's required.
- [82:33]
John Heilman
What are those actions and what are the hurdles to taking those actions?
- [82:37]
Nicole Wallace
What's frustrating is the actions that are.
- [82:39]
John Heilman
Required are really straightforward.
- [82:41]
Nicole Wallace
It's opening the land borders and letting aid in. International humanitarian law calls for rapid and unimpeded delivery of aid and that's what's required right now. There's tens of thousands of tons of food waiting in neighboring countries with aid organizations like the IRC pleading for permission to bring it in. We're just not able to. We're not allowed to bring the aid in. That's all that's required. So what we're resulting to now as an international community is airdropping, which is the most ineffective and expensive route to deliver aid. All that needs to be done is open the land borders.
- [83:25]
John Heilman
What impact, if any, does it have to have an American president perceived to be Netanyahu's closest ally on the world stage echo this very obvious observation? He said he saw it on television. Of starving children. Does that that help? Does that aid? Does that pressure Netanyahu?
- [83:47]
Nicole Wallace
Well, it's a start. The US Government has held very close to the government of Israel over the two years and more of war. But words are. Are insufficient at a time like this. Opening small aid depots are insufficient. And at a time like this, what it needs is a torrent of aid coming across all of the land borders, distributed by the United nations and organizations like the IRC who are competent and experienced in operating in complex war zones like this. We do it all the time all around the world.
- [84:28]
John Heilman
The claim by Israel, their main claim for withholding aid, is that Hamas has been confiscating aid. The United States, as you're just saying, you know, a close ally of Israel's and of Netanyahu's. The US has debunked this claim on the part of Israel that Hamas is confiscating aid. Israel's military has also debunked that claim. What is sustaining the impasse? Why is it still so difficult to open up the blockades and get food to the children in Gaza?
- [85:04]
Nicole Wallace
What's stopping it is politics, which is outside of my lane. I'm a humanitarian, but it's politics of the day. That means that the government of Israel has decided that they will not open those border crossings and instead are allowing what I think is an inhumane distraction to proceed, which is the air drops into Gaza. We're talking small numbers of tons of food coming out of the air. It's incredibly inefficient and in some cases dangerous.
- [85:37]
John Heilman
We've already received reports of as a result of the airdrops.
- [85:41]
Nicole Wallace
It's politics. That's what's stopping it. And frankly, it's politics and international pressure which will change the dynamic. Open those land borders.
- [85:51]
John Heilman
Bob, kitchen, please come back and keep us informed about what's happening here. Thank you. Very much for taking the time to talk to us today. One more break. We'll be right back. Before we go this hour, we want to share a special announcement with you. Today we are launching MSNBC Live 25. The day long event in New York City gives you the opportunity to take part in an in depth and interactive discussion with your favorite MSNBC hosts and other special guests. This year I'm excited to get to take part in it. For more, I want to bring into our conversation the host and creative director for MSNBC Live, our friend, Luke Russert. Luke, I've never been. So tell me, what's your secret sauce? Tell me what?
- [86:38]
Nicole Wallace
I just want to say from my team how thrilled we are you're coming this year. We knew you had a family commitment last year. The people wanted Nicole Wallace and Nicole Wallace is showing up for her. People, we cannot thank you enough. You just brought the rock star energy up by 11. So we really appreciate it.
- [86:55]
John Heilman
That's ridiculous.
- [86:57]
Nicole Wallace
No, you are beloved and we are so thrilled that you're going to be there. But this is MSNBC live 25. It's about who we are and we had such a great time last year doing our first event, Democracy 2024. 4000 people came to New York City, to Brooklyn last year, from as far away as Europe, Hawaii, from all over the country and really came together to see their favorite hosts and contributors from MSNBC and got to meet each other as fellow fans and viewers and folks who are really interested in what we talk about here on the network. So we decided we're going to do it again. We're going to do it bigger and better. This year is at the Hammerstein ballroom in Manhattan, October 11th. It's a holiday weekend in the fall. It's a Saturday in New York City, nowhere else where you would rather be. And our lineup is incredible this year. We got you, we got Joe and Mika, of course. We have Rachel, Chris, Lawrence, Simone, Allie Rule, Katie Turtle. You got everybody there. So it's going to be a wonderful two sessions on that Saturday, one at 11am if you're a morning person, I think that's when you're hitting off Nicole. And Then1@ 4:30pm if you want an evening session as well. And there's a capstone lunch, a capstone dinner. So there's something there for everybody.
- [88:05]
John Heilman
I think this year there's something more urgent about being with your people and being connected. I was at a family wedding this weekend and people really do connect to the news they're getting and the people they're getting it from. Talk about why this is important for us as a, as a company and as a culture.
- [88:23]
Nicole Wallace
I think you're 110% correct. Look, these are trying times, and we get that there are things happening in the United States right now that I think a lot of us never thought would happen in our lifetimes, if at all. And when you see this type of news coming down the pipeline every single day, when you do feel threatened, I think in your own American skin, a lot of time you want to look to someone next to you and feel, hey, there's someone else who's not only feeling what I'm feeling, but there's someone else who's aware of it and wants to do something about it. And I think, as a lot of our hosts and talents say, is that you can be angry, but it's better to get together, talk with someone and sort of figure out, all right, what are we going to do moving forward? And I think an event like this really gives us an opportunity to do that and hear from people who know how to do it the best and folks like you, Nicole.
- [89:10]
John Heilman
Well, I'll come to your party, but you got to come to mine more often. It's great to get to talk to you. Liz, always a pleasure.
- [89:16]
Nicole Wallace
Thank you so much for having me.
- [89:19]
John Heilman
Thank you, my friend. One more break. We'll be right back. If it's Monday, that means we have a new episode of the Best People podcast for you this week. It is my conversation with one of our favorite guests on the show, our friend Tim Miller. He talks about what it's like to raise a daughter right now, the interviews he's done that have changed him. Take a listen and let both of us know what you think. And thanks to all of you for letting us into your homes today. We are grateful.
- [89:44]
Nicole Wallace
Saturday, October 11th from New York City, it's MSNBC Live 25. Join your favorite MSNBC hosts, Rachel Maddow, Joe Scarborough, Mika Brzezinski, Nicole Wallace, Ari Melber, Alicia Menendez, Simone Sanders Townsend, Michael Steele, Chris Haynes, jen Psaki, Lawrence O', Donnell, Stephanie Rule and more. Visit msnbc.comlive25 to buy your tickets today.