“Chaos in Minneapolis”

Summary

Podcast Summary: Deadline: White House

Episode: “Chaos in Minneapolis”

Host: Nicolle Wallace (MSNBC NOW)
Air Date: January 15, 2026

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Overview

"Chaos in Minneapolis" plunges into the escalating tensions following a federal immigration enforcement shooting in the city, examining the Trump administration's aggressive tactics, the local response, and the broader implications for democracy and civil society. Host Nicolle Wallace (via John Heilemann, guest-hosting) brings together a diverse panel—including political analysts and on-the-ground voices—to unpack the events’ impact on Minneapolis residents, law enforcement, and national politics. By featuring unique perspectives ranging from traumatized locals to seasoned political observers, the episode offers a raw, deeply concerned account of American governance, protest, and the fractures running through the nation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Federal Crackdown and Its Aftermath

• Incident Overview:
  • Protests exploded after an ICE agent shot a Venezuelan immigrant in the leg during a raid ([01:06]).
  • Federal agents deployed smoke grenades and chemical munitions, leading to community outrage and further clashes.
  • Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey and Governor Tim Walz both condemned the violence, urging peaceful protest ([02:25–03:41]).
  • Trump administration blames local officials and threatens to invoke the Insurrection Act, deepening local fear ([03:41]).
• Resident Sentiment:
  • Locals fear escalation, possible martial law, or even “neighbors turning on neighbors” ([04:23]).

2. Voices from Minneapolis: Trauma, Perseverance, and Self-Protection

• On-the-ground Reality (Aisha Gomez, State Rep.):
  • Describes “massive escalation”—heavy federal presence, residents living in daily fear ([05:36]).
  • Gives personal account: bystanders assaulted, parents and children caught in tear gas, schools disrupted, rights violated.
  • Highlights importance of community organization: “We all are wearing whistles in Minneapolis...when we see an abduction taking place...make noise, make a crowd, take out your phone, document it.” ([08:58])
  • “The public safety risk at this point is not an insurrection in Minneapolis. It is an invasion by masked, unaccountable secret police on behalf of an authoritarian regime.” ([10:36])
• Impact on Children:
  • Children traumatized: schools close due to tear gas incidents; kids witness violence ([11:30]).
  • Parents struggle to explain the “authoritarianism” unfolding in their city and country.
  • “You want to help your kids have a sense of calm and peace...when they look around and see their neighbors being brutalized by heavily armed masked secret police.” ([11:35])
• Community Response:
  • Residents stepping up for peaceful civic action and mutual support.
  • “It turns out Americans aren't into secret police snatching people up off the streets. I mean, surprise, right? Like, it's amazing.” ([17:37])

3. Panel Analysis: Authoritarian Playbook and Political Calculus

• Escalation as Tactic:
  • Analysts agree this is by design: Trump seeks confrontation to justify further crackdowns ([24:33]).
  • “They want to escalate because they want to crack down harder. And that’s why I think this is continuing now...” —Alex Wagner ([24:33])
• Minnesota as Target:
  • Psychological and racial aspects: Trump's fixation with Minnesota’s Somali and immigrant communities ([24:59]), drawing on demographic fears.
  • “He is seizing upon a story about fraud...and using that as an excuse to go full bore and create a war zone in residential neighborhoods.” —Tom Holland ([25:01])
• Public Outrage and Fracture with Elites:
  • Widespread anger spans the political spectrum, even among first-time protesters.
  • Criticism of Democratic leaders for caution, while polls show a sharp decline in ICE support ([27:45]).

4. Economic Distress and Political Gaslighting

• Trump Administration’s Response to Rising Grocery Prices:
  • Secretary of Agriculture Brooke Rollins touts a “$3 meal plan” (piece of chicken, broccoli, corn tortilla, “one other thing”) as a solution to rising food prices ([33:46]).
  • Panel mocks out-of-touch response; prices are up due to tariffs and policy.
  • “Literally like a Happy Meal. I want to bring in staff writer...David from. Alex and Tim are still here. I mean, David, this is part of a longer conversation we’ve been having over many, many months now of the gaslighting...” —John Heilemann ([34:13])
• Structural Inequality:
  • Discussion of Trump family’s wealth increase during his administration while everyday Americans struggle, emphasizing the disconnect and political risks ([41:37], [43:56]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the Ground in Minneapolis

• “There’s no insurrection happening in Minneapolis right now. The chaos and the lack of safety...is because of ICE and CBP.”
  —Aisha Gomez ([07:43])
• “When we see a violation of civil liberties, which at this point is happening dozens of times, if not hundreds of times a day...we’re telling people: make noise, make a crowd, take out your phone, document it.”
  —Aisha Gomez ([09:32])
• “Hey, they have guns, we have whistles.”
  —Aisha Gomez, quoting Renee Goode’s widow ([15:21])

Community Response & Protesters

• “I’ve never protested in my life.”
  —Local resident ([21:31])
• “Regular people...just sit around and watch football, they’re like, ‘No, this is not American. Masked people, women...’”
  —Alex Wagner ([29:01])
• “This is exactly what the right was afraid the left was gonna do. Jackbooted thugs coming in...to go seize American citizens. Well, hello. That’s what’s happening right now.”
  —Tom Holland ([29:29])

Administration Analysis & Economic Policy

• “Let them eat, quote, one piece of chicken, one piece of broccoli, one corn tortilla and something else.”
  —John Heilemann ([34:13])
• “They want the authoritarianism. They want to see blue haired lesbians cry. That’s what they’re here for. They’re here for the liberal tears.”
  —Alex Wagner ([28:22])
• “All the basic foods, he made them more expensive on purpose.”
  —David From ([39:57])
• “It is a K-shaped economy where the wealthiest are getting wealthy and everybody else is suffering. And that creates...an incredibly destabilized society.”
  —Tom Holland ([43:01])
• “He and his family have made a billion dollars in a year in office, mostly by selling cryptocurrency....He feels like a big winner and he made his money as president....while almost everyone else is getting poorer.”
  —David From ([44:42])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening summary of violence/response: [01:06–05:02]
• Firsthand account from Aisha Gomez: [05:36–18:49]
• Panel reaction and protester interviews: [21:19–24:33]
• Motivations behind Trump administration tactics: [24:50–27:45]
• Analysis of Democratic and Republican response: [27:45–29:41]
• Community resilience and leadership: [29:52–30:32]
• Trump family’s enrichment, economic inequalities: [41:37–45:01]

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Episode Tone & Language

The tone throughout is urgent, raw, and indignant, with a mix of despair, resolve, and dark humor. Speakers are alternately furious and hopeful, constantly circling back to the contrast between authoritarian overreach and grassroots resilience.

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Conclusion

This episode of “Deadline: White House” serves as both a dispatch from a city under stress and a fierce indictment of federal power and political betrayal. With vivid, often harrowing firsthand testimony and sharp policy critique, Nicolle Wallace and her panel illuminate the stakes of the Minneapolis crisis—showing how decisions made in Washington reverberate violently in American neighborhoods, and how ordinary people, sometimes for the first time, are rising in defense of community, decency, and democracy.

Transcript

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[John Heilemann]

Hi everyone. Welcome to Thursday. It's 4 o' clock in New York. It's 3 o' clock in Minneapolis where a confrontation that could have national and international ramifications is unfolding right now. A brutal campaign by federal agents from the Trump administration meeting resistance on the streets of that city from Americans. Protests flared last night after another shooting by an ICE agent. This time it was a Venezuelan immigrant. He was shot in the leg. A neighbor told the New York Times that they heard gunshots and witnessed federal agents swarming the neighborhood. Those agents threw smoke grenades in an effort to get the man to come out of his home. The Department of Homeland Security claims that the man fled a traffic stop and that he assaulted the officer who caught up to him. And again, that is what they are claiming. That's what they are saying. A Minnesota lawmaker released a 911 call, allegedly from the man's wife. In that 911 call. The wife says that he was chased into the house and shot through the door. The incident led to clashes with protesters last night. At least 200 people gathered on the scene. Law enforcement used tear gas and flashbangs against the crowd. Two people were detained and then released. Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Fry condemned the violence during a press conference last night. Watch that.

[Alex Wagner]

For anyone that is taking the bait tonight, stop. That is not helpful. Go home. We cannot counter Donald Trump's chaos with.

[Aisha Gomez]

Our own brand of chaos.

[Alex Wagner]

And I have seen thousands of people throughout our city, people peacefully protesting for those that have peacefully protested. I applaud you for those that are taking the bait. You are not helping, and you are not helping the undocumented immigrants in our city. You are not helping the people that.

[Aisha Gomez]

Call this place home.

[John Heilemann]

And here is Minnesota's Governor, Tim Walz.

[David From]

Donald Trump wants this chaos. He wants confusion, and, yes, he wants more violence on our streets. We cannot give him what he wants. We can. We must protest loudly, urgently, but also peacefully. Indeed, as hard as we will fight in the courts and at the ballot box, we cannot and will not let violence prevail. You're angry. I'm angry. Angry is not a strong enough word, but we must remain peaceful.

[John Heilemann]

And we played Governor Walz and Mayor Fry for you because it represents a night and day contrast to Donald Trump and his administration, proving them right, though, in what they said there. Trump administration has responded to the events in Minneapolis by fanning the flames again. Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche blamed Governor Walsh and Mayor Fry for the violence last night. And as for Donald Trump, this morning, he threatened to invoke the Insurrection act, the 1807 law that allows him to deploy the military. And it is that threat that now has the people of Minneapolis fearing that things in their city will only get worse. Here's what two residents told our reporters on the ground.

[Aisha Gomez]

This is not good. This is not good, I'm afraid if it's going to happen again tonight, I don't know what's going to happen here. Is this going to stop? Probably not. Is it going to get worse? Probably. What does getting worse look like? Like, is martial law coming? You know, almost certainly. Which sucks, because these are our neighbors. Like, we're just living. We're just here trying to protect each other. And so to see the different narratives coming from different sides is. It's all just tough to reckon with.

[John Heilemann]

A city on edge as the Trump administration fans the flames and creates chaos is where we start today. With me at the table, host of the Bulwark Podcast, political analyst Tim Miller is here. And my friend and colleague, senior political analyst, contributing host on Pod Save America, host of the podcast Runaway Country, Alex Wagner is here. And joining us from Minneapolis, Minnesota State Representative Aisha Gomez is back with us. Let me start with you, Representative Gomez. Just tell me what's happening. Take me back to last night, actually. Tell me what unfolded last night.

[Aisha Gomez]

Yeah, thanks so much for having me. So there's kind of a lot of lack of clarity about the situation that happened last night. I can just say, like, having been on the scene of situations that then prompted a press release from dhs. I appreciate that we're Looking critically at those, because they're sort of propaganda tools themselves. I mean, what's been going on since Renee Goode was murdered, my constituent was murdered in the street one week ago. Is that we have just seen a massive escalation. We've seen additional troops, and our streets are tense. Our streets, to the extent that there is chaos being sown in our streets, it's being sown by just this influx of heavily armed, masked agents of the federal government who are themselves here, clearly to destabilize our community. You know, it's hard to just go about your daily life without encountering scenes of chaos. I was at a school a couple days ago, two days ago, just welcoming the kids in the morning. I heard whistles and honks. I was a couple blocks from Renee Goode's murder. I ran over there and, you know, just this scene of complete chaos. They're pulling a bystander. They cut her seatbelt, pulled her out of her car. They're carrying. She wasn't even an observer. She was just trying to go to a doctor's appointment. And she was physically assaulted, removed from her car. An observer was physically assaulted. They were carrying them by their four limbs. They used chemical munitions against the crowd. I was maced and tear gassed. And as I'm just. This scene, right? In a residential community, chaos is unfolding at the hands of these federal agents. I see this man and he has a little. I mean, it's a baby, right? A toddler, probably less than two months. Two years old. I'm sorry, like an 18 month old or so. And he's just trying to cross the street to go to his house, and he is just terrified, and his baby is terrified, and they're crossing the street through clouds of tear gas. And that is the scene in an American city. And I just appreciate the invitation because I feel like if you're not living here, you might not understand like, that this guy's just trying to get to his house, right? Like, people are trying to bring their kids to school, go to work, and there are scenes of complete chaos. And to be clear, there's no insurrection happening in Minneapolis right now. The chaos and the lack of safety in our streets is because of ICE and cbp.

[John Heilemann]

What do you tell your citizens to do? I mean, what should people do? I know the governor and the mayor have made clear that they should remain peaceful. But if they need help, are they. I mean, are local police folks roaming the streets? I mean, what should people. What should your constituents do if they find themselves in that Situation, heaven forbid, holding an 18 month old baby and just trying to cross the street and go home or drive to a doctor's appointment.

[Aisha Gomez]

Yeah, I mean, it's a very good question. It's a hard question to answer. You know, there are not local law enforcement agencies that are willing to intervene physically when citizens are being brutalized. And that's just the fact of the moment that we're in. And so what I'm telling my constituents is to continue doing what they're doing, which is, you know, not only going about their lives, but also being on watch for each other, taking care of each other. That the reason that I came upon this scene when I was at the school two days ago is I heard the sound of whistles. We all are wearing whistles in Minneapolis. And it draws community together because, you know, these masked secret agents, secret police who murdered my constituent a week ago, want to operate in the dark. They don't want us to be filming their activities because when you see what they're doing, we all saw what they did to Renee Goode and we saw what they said about it afterwards. And we saw that the official line about that, about that day was a lie. And so what I'm telling my constituents to do is to be with each other. We are out here, we're welcoming kids to school, we're trying to help each other get to work and get food and get the basics of life done. And those of us who are not at risk from this racist attack on our community, we have to be out in the streets and keeping an eye on each other and making noise. When we see an abduction taking place, when we see a violation of civil liberties, which at this point is happening like dozens of times, if not hundreds of times a day, American citizens, civil liberties are being violated. And every time that we see that, we're telling people, make noise, make a crowd, take out your phone, document it. We cannot let them get away with telling a lie about our city. You know, there is there the disorder that exists in our streets. The public safety risk at this point is not an insurrection in Minneapolis. It is an invasion by masked, unaccountable secret police on behalf of an authoritarian regime on the march.

[John Heilemann]

How are the kids doing? Are kids showing up at school?

[Aisha Gomez]

Yeah, thank you for asking. I mean, I gotta say, you know, I think as a parent, of course, I mean, anybody, right, you don't have to be a parent to be just struck by the image of this man and his 18 month old. You talked about what happened in north Minneapolis last night and you know, I don't know exactly all of the ins and outs of the situation that led up to it, but one of our neighbors, he had his kids in this car. It seemed like he was trying to pick them up from a relative's house. He had a six month old and a two year old in the back of his car and there was like a smoke bomb that basically went into the car and his kids were transported by an ambulance to the emergency room because of the actions of these federal agents, just like in a residential community. And so there is direct harm being done to children. Greg Bovino and his gang maced students at high school. Dismissal last week, the same day that they killed my constituent Renee Good. So the kids are being physically, you know, physically harmed. And this, I have a 13 year old. I mean this is a hard thing to describe to them both what is happening as they move about the city that they call home and the things that they're seeing and the violence, right. That they're seeing in front of their faces. It's a very difficult thing to try to help them maintain a sense of calm and peace in their lives when they look around and see their neighbors being brutalized by heavily armed masked secret police. And it's also really a hard thing I guess as like a parent of a young teenager to figure out how to explain this moment in our history and this moment in our country to him, you know, because we, I think like, you know, I grew up in like the 90s, so the visions of the 80s of, you know, of secret police in Latin America, for example, of this disappearing people off of, off of streets, I think it was sort of this like specter that I never imagined I would see unfolding in my own beloved community that I represent. And you know, my son doesn't necessarily have that kind of historical context, but the images that are unfolding in our community are so hard to explain like, like to kids just in the moment, like how to feel about it, how to think about it, how to move about safely and just really difficult to contextualize in this sort of historical moment. So we're struggling, Our kids are struggling. They were out of school for two days last week because of this pepper spray incident at a high school. So you know, it's absurd times. And our kids are noticing and children are being absolutely impacted, both directly by kids having their parents taken away by kids being harmed by chemical munitions, as I've mentioned, those few incidents. And also just as we all collectively are struggling, how do we make sense of this moment? And what do we do? What do you do when you have a federal government that is unconcerned with the rule of law and is playing out the playbook of authoritarianism in front of us? But we have to do something. We have to do something. And so, hey, they have guns, we have whistles. Like Renee Goode's widow said. I mean, we are people of conscience, and these actions by these federal agents are designed to intimidate us and to make us go back into our houses. And I have to tell you one thing is that that is not working. That is not working. Tens of thousands of people in the metro area alone, thousands and thousands of people in Minneapolis are coming out of their houses. They are looking out for their neighbors. They're doing all of those sort of, like, neighborly things, right, that we were talking about getting our kids to school, getting food to our neighbors, but also to show up and be a principled and peaceful observation force for, you know, to watch this rising tide of authoritarianism as it plays out in front of our eyes. We have an obligation to show the world what is happening here. And also, you know, just like Minnesota is a. We're like a welcoming and compassionate and loving and respectful and caring community. And Donald Trump wants to destroy that, and he wants to turn us against each other. And that's why he weaponized the Somali American community, a beloved part of our. Of the fabric of our state. And it's why he is, you know, engaging in these violent tactics that are designed to make us scared and make us look toward each other with, you know, skepticism and not that neighborliness and not that love and compassion that is actually true about our community and true about our country and true about us as human beings. And so what I see in the midst of all of this just devastating horror and terror that's unfolding in our streets is a reason to be very encouraged about the character of the people of this state, city, this country. You know, there are thousands and thousands of people who have never been involved in any kind of activism in their world lives. We're stepping up and saying, I want to be trained as a constitutional observer. I want to figure out how to connect with the other people in my community who are standing up to what's happening in our streets. I mean, like, it turns out Americans aren't into secret police snatching people up off the streets. I mean, surprise, right? Like, it's amazing.

[John Heilemann]

No, it's amazing. And people that, again, I don't know what's in their heart or who they voted for. But people who come out on the street and say a lot of what you're saying, that I've never been out here before, but this is, you know, most of them have to use the F word. You know, this is effing crazy. And it's all over. It's unavoidable. I want to thank you for doing an extraordinary job, just telling us what it's like to be there and what your constituents are dealing with and for sharing what it's like to try to be parent in this moment. I think everybody is struggling and I would ask you to keep coming back and keep us honest and keep our eyes open and focused on what you're all dealing with. Thank you so much.

[Aisha Gomez]

Thank you for having me. I absolutely will appreciate it.

[John Heilemann]

Thank you. We'll bring Tim, who brought some of that local reaction to my attention that took us all day to get all the bleeps in. And Alex Wagner. And on the other side of a short break, also ahead for us, a new economic report that shows that, surprise, surprise, grocery prices are still very much on the rise. The Trump administration says don't worry, Donald Trump's got an agriculture secretary. I didn't even know that, but he has one with a $3 meal plan. It's amazing. It's not clear if it's a diet or a budget move. But I'll tell you what, she says she thinks Americans should eat. And later in the broadcast, how Donald Trump, both at home and abroad, is reshaping America around himself and the rules he's willing to tear down to achieve that. We'll get to all that and much more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

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[Aisha Gomez]

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[Aisha Gomez]

This is nuts. Walks away.

[David From]

This is. Yeah.

[Alex Wagner]

And you're right in the middle of this.

[David From]

What the is going on? Dude?

[Alex Wagner]

This is insane. Have you ever gone out to these sort of things before?

[Aisha Gomez]

Never. Never.

[David From]

I've never protested in my life.

[Alex Wagner]

My brother, my brother's here.

[Aisha Gomez]

He does it all the time.

[David From]

I've never, I, I got, dude, I.

[Alex Wagner]

Like I said, I'm far enough away but close enough. And I sit in my cushy house and look at get mad and I, yeah, you know, I, my daughter was part of it. We're keep going down to Whipple every night now and we're protesting down there. My wife is here, probably way back there because she doesn't want to be.

[David From]

Part of the tear gas.

[Alex Wagner]

I think that they, I think that they, they're just trying to scare people and you know, but, but, but why shoot people?

[David From]

My. No, you know what really pisses me.

[Alex Wagner]

Off is the fact that they detain.

[Aisha Gomez]

People, cuff them and then still beat.

[David From]

The out of them.

[John Heilemann]

In the break, we talked about how much time we spent in Minnesota. I mean these are not, I mean these are some of the nicest people that I've met in traveling for politics and work my whole life. But when a line has been crossed, that is exactly what it sounds like. Like what the F is happening.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, the representative is maybe a little bit more representative of nice.

[John Heilemann]

Right?

[Alex Wagner]

But I love that guy. I was doom scrolling last night like everybody else. I couldn't go to sleep and started watching this video and I was like, find me this person. Because I do think that's representative of how a lot of people feel across the in Minneapolis. But people who are not necessarily protesters or types, but they're like, this is crazy what's happening. That protest last night and we don't know exactly what happened at this point with the Venezuelan that they shot, but they've lied about everything. They've lied about everything to date. And if you remember the first story Kristi Noem told after Renee Goode was killed, she was like, the agents were stuck in ice, and a domestic terrorist.

[John Heilemann]

Snowbank. It was a snowbank stuck in a.

[Alex Wagner]

Snowbank, and a domestic terrorist came after them. It was totally disconnected from everything that actually happened.

[John Heilemann]

She obviously hadn't watched the video.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. Or didn't know. Or had watched and wanted to lie. Who knows? But so in this situation, we don't exactly know what happened, but these protesters came out and they start shooting these flashbangs and smoke bombs at them. There was one story I saw this morning of a van with six kids, of a guy who wasn't even there at the protest, and three of his kids had to go to the hospital because they got all the smoke in their lungs. And, you know, I think that when people see that happening to their friends and neighbors, they rightly are repulsed and want to show up. And so I think that's, like, part of what we're seeing happening is that it's just a reaction to this horrible action by the government. The only quibble I have with the representative who spoke in the last segment, who I thought she was wonderful in everything, and she said that they want to intimidate people and put them in their homes, and maybe some of them do, but I think they want to fight, actually. And if you look at what happened last night, this idea that you shoot off smoke bombs into a crowd, I think they want more of this. He wants to do the Insurrection Act. You saw it in the.

[John Heilemann]

He told us.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, he told us. We're not reading between the lines. They are instigating a fight. They want to escalate because they want to crack down harder. And that's why I think this is continuing now into whatever. Like, it's been a week since the killing of Renee Goode.

[John Heilemann]

But to what end?

[Tom Holland]

Oh, I think the invocation. First of all, his choice of Minnesota is. I think we should unpack it a little bit. He's always been obsessed.

[Alex Wagner]

Psychological play here.

[Tom Holland]

There's a distinctly racist end goal here. Right. Like, he's obsessed with the Somali community in Minnesota. He's obsessed with Ilhan Omar. And I think in part because Minnesota is thought of as a largely white state, and you have an influx of a bunch of brown people, which is the story of immigration tension all over this country, demographic change. He is seizing upon a story about fraud perpetrated perhaps in some part by the Somali community. And he's using that as an excuse to go full bore and create a war zone in residential neighborhoods. And these, you know, this is a complete confection on the part of the Trump administration. There's an open question about what the fraud really entailed. There's no need to be patrolling these residential neighborhoods.

[John Heilemann]

Yeah, but the ICE agents aren't even really trained in the weapons they carry. They're not forensic accountants.

[Tom Holland]

They're not trained in the tactics you use to pull people over. Like, they don't. They don't. I talked to the la, the police chief from the Los Angeles Police Department who was there for years, and he was like, that's just not. Those tactics are not what you employ. They're using banned chokeholds on 16 year old American citizens. And other parts of the country, The Minneapolis and St. Paul Public Schools are offering virtual learning until mid February because people are terrified to send their children to school. This is so hugely disruptive. And I do think that's the point. Right. On one level, he wants the people of Minneapolis, he wants a conflagration, he wants conflict. But he also wants to terrify every other major American city and say, you resist me, this is what it's gonna look like. We're gonna parachute into your residential neighborhoods, we're gonna make your children scared to go to school, and we have complete authority to do it. You cannot file a civil lawsuit against a federal officer.

[Alex Wagner]

There's one other element. Just really quick, about why Minnesota is where I thought you were going. Just want to add. He wouldn't say it, but he wanted to crack down harder on George Floyd. There's like a psychological element. There's like a machismo where he felt like, you know, initially, you know, then he went and hid in the basement. He was like, when the looting starts, the shooting starts, it's in the piac. Yeah, exactly. Then he went to hide. And there's a pride here, I think, that Esper and maybe Millie and others basically talked him down from.

[John Heilemann]

Talked Stephen Miller down, as we reported out, I think Michael Bender of the Wall Street Journal in his book reports it out that they told Stephen Miller to shut the bleep up and.

[Alex Wagner]

Exactly.

[John Heilemann]

And I mean, you're right, that was a chance.

[Alex Wagner]

So now this is a second chance.

[Aisha Gomez]

Comeuppance.

[Tom Holland]

Comeuppance of Minnesota.

[Alex Wagner]

Correct.

[Tom Holland]

Sick and so twisted.

[John Heilemann]

What do you think about the fact that since Renee Nicole Goode was shot and killed, more people have been in the street. I feel like I have a better sense of how the public is going to react to an authoritarian playbook than any of the elites who seem to be tripping over each other to capitulate to Donald Trump.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. And even Democratic Party. There's been a couple stories this week where Democratic Party leaders are like, got to be careful how we talk about ice. And in this budget fight coming up, do we don't want to make. It's like, what. What are you guys like seeing out there? Because. And if you just look at the polls and you know, look, polls can be off a little bit. We've all been burned by them. But it's not. These aren't close. It's not like it's a close call. And the amount of people who are on the side of the officer in the Renee Goode killing is like 25 to 30% in various polls. The number of people who are positive view of ice right now is like 30%. And this is huge.

[John Heilemann]

Drops 30% swing in what people think of ice.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. Since last November, people are upset about this. And just there is a concerningly significant, probably bare majority of the Republican Party that is signed up for. This is what they signed up for. Right. They want the authoritarianism. They want to see blue haired lesbians cry. That's what they're here for. They're here for the liberal tears. But a lot of the independent voters, the newer, the people we talk about, the manosphere, the comedians, the Don't Tread on Me people, there's still some people who have the Don't Tread on Me flag. That was like. I meant that maybe not all of the people, but some percentage of them. And I think regular, like the guy in the intro video. Regular people who just sit around and watch football, they're like, no, this is not American. Masked people, women.

[John Heilemann]

It's also not conservative. I mean, Republicans used to think that the states should have a say, Jack.

[Alex Wagner]

Government closest to the people governs the best. How many times do we say that? Like, don't let the federal government get involved in local school board decisions.

[Tom Holland]

Right.

[John Heilemann]

Like this was what happened to all that. Am I reached. Am I dating myself?

[Alex Wagner]

No. Add it to the list of things.

[John Heilemann]

They threw in the trash.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah. No, not at all. This is exactly what the right was afraid the left was gonna do. Jackbooted thugs coming in in black military helicopters to go seize American citizens. Well, hello. That's what's happening right now.

[Alex Wagner]

Jade Helm, were you covering that?

[John Heilemann]

They used to call them white tinfoil hats. If you thought that happen and now they're doing it.

[Tom Holland]

And Minneapolis covering it for.

[John Heilemann]

Is amazing to hear the way people are responding for their neighbors, though. And I think that there is something out there, you know, if you sort of follow the people, the people seem to be the ones with the brightest lights right now in terms of what we all cover every day.

[Tom Holland]

Well, and that's why I think you're seeing the reaction. I mean, I think the people show the leaders the bravery that they need to summon.

[David From]

I mean.

[John Heilemann]

Correct.

[Tom Holland]

I genuinely, I'm not trying to connect too many apples to oranges, but Jerome Powell coming out with a video on Sunday I think is the culmination of people looking out and saying, hey, you know what, I don't need to wait for the great herd to come with me to protest this movement. I can be brave on my own. I can stand up to this guy, punch the bully in the nose.

[John Heilemann]

Right. And I think some of it has its genesis in the late fall from the Epstein survivors who had their courage as contagious and really brought along bipartisan coalitions in the House. All right, after the break, Donald, they're playing the music like an award show. I'm going. I'm going. Donald Trump claims that the affordability crisis is a democratic hoax. So why is his administration touting like a McDonald's style three dollar meal deal that includes this is a quote, a piece of broccoli. Well, that's a real story. This is not the Onion. We'll tell you about it next.

[Tom Holland]

Hey, everyone, friend of the show, Tom Holland here. While I've got you, I wanted to.

[David From]

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[Tom Holland]

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[Tom Holland]

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[Alex Wagner]

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[Tom Holland]

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[Aisha Gomez]

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[David From]

Rest of the show. Did my card go through?

[John Heilemann]

Oh, no.

[Alex Wagner]

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[John Heilemann]

So switch to Verizon business and you.

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[Alex Wagner]

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[David From]

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[John Heilemann]

As we all know, Donald Trump on the campaign trail, rather famously and effectively frankly, promised to lower the prices of everything, especially groceries on day one. Well, now it's been more than 365 of those days and he's gone from touting what he would do in the vein of affordability to attacking anyone who complains about it, calling it a hoax made up by Democrats. And if you're looking for the reason for that switch, look no further than the state of Donald Trump's economy and the prices of groceries. New data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics finds that prices have gone up in five of the six major food at home categories, with December seeing the biggest price spike since the year 2022. As Americans grocery bills go up, Donald Trump's rhetoric has gone from make America great again to something more akin to make bread lines cool again. Here's Agriculture Secretary Brooke Rawlins on how to survive and thrive in Trump's America.

[Aisha Gomez]

Are we actually asking Americans, especially those who are living on the margins, are we asking them to spend more on their diet? And the answer to that is no. We've run over a thousand simulations. It can cost around $3ameal for a piece of chicken, a piece of broccoli, you know, corn tortilla and one other thing. And so there is a way to do this that actually will save the average American consumer money.

[John Heilemann]

Am I writing this down? One piece of chicken, one piece of broccoli, one corn tortilla, and something else. Mystery item. It's literally like a happy Meal. I want to bring in staff writer, podcast host at the Atlantic. David from. Alex and Tim are still here. I mean, David, this is part of a longer conversation we've been having over many, many months now of the gaslighting, the insanity, the Marie Antoinette let them eat cake. But this is let them eat, quote, one piece of chicken, one piece of broccoli, one corn tortilla and something else. End quote.

[David From]

Yeah, I do wonder about the Oliver Twist situation. Where the kid at the table asks, may I have a second corn tortilla.

[John Heilemann]

Or a piece of broccoli?

[David From]

And you have to tell the child, no, the president said, it's one corn tortilla for you. Also, I wonder what happens to that broccoli in wintertime when the broccoli has to come from Mexico on which all of these tariffs have been applied. But it does. It is an example of how Donald Trump and his team are losing the instinct for the popular that they had in their first term. Trump did have, I mean, he never went into a grocery store in his life and he's famously indifferent to the well being of ordinary people. But he did have this kind of awareness, this kind of situational awareness of what life was like or could be like, what, where not to go in the second term. And this is the thing that has become very dangerous. He's decided the only price that matters is the price of gasoline. And that has been the big driver of everything he's doing, from invading Venezuela to keep the dictator in place but seize oil to not helping Iran because he's afraid if you help Iran, that will cause disturbances that drive the price of oil up to his desire to annex parts of Canada. All of that is if we can get enough oil, we can drive the price of gasoline down and that's the only price that matters. We then they won't care. They can't have two corn tortillas, but only one.

[John Heilemann]

David I think too that food insecurity is, it's a real tragedy and it's a thing wrapped in shame. I remember sort of the most tangible, visible window into it was the early months of the COVID pandemic when people suddenly lost their jobs and you saw these really expensive cars lined up at food banks to get groceries for the week, people that made a good living but were suddenly out of work or suddenly furloughed and didn't have enough money for groceries. It is so visceral. And I wonder if the betrayal, the lie, the intentional lie about bringing the price of groceries down with absolutely no intention of doing it, if you intended to bring groceries down ever and weren't just saying it to get reelected and stay out of jail and get Jack Smith fired, you wouldn't have done tariffs on any food on any countries that we trade produce with. So we. What is your sense of the political ramifications of the betrayal on food prices?

[David From]

Well, there's no backing away from this because the only way you can deal with the price of groceries, the only way you can deal with the affordability problem, as Trump doesn't like to call it, is to acknowledge that you did this yourself. I mean, take the price of a can of beans, Trump. Whatever happens to the beans inside the can, that can is made out of metal that Trump has made more expensive. And whether the can is aluminum for your soda or whether it's iron or steel for the beans themselves, all of those things are subject to tariffs that make the can more expensive. If the can is more expensive, the can of stuff is going to be more expensive. They did that on purpose. They're still doing it. They want to make it worse. Everybody knows it. How do you lie your way out of that?

[John Heilemann]

Yeah, I mean, it is, to me, this bigger story. I mean, there is. I mean, food insecurity is a tragedy. Food insecurity is a reality for a lot of people, and Donald Trump made it worse after promising to make it better.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. I don't know. I kind of got to defend Brooke Rollins on this one.

[John Heilemann]

Oh, really?

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. I mean, at the gay beach house, one boneless, skinless chicken breast and one broccoli is pretty standard lunch. You know, you want a good mosquito.

[John Heilemann]

Oh, I mean, like. Well, that's why I wasn't sure who that was.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah. One other thing.

[John Heilemann]

Yeah, what's the one other thing?

[Alex Wagner]

A single bean martini from the can of Bam. Vodka soda.

[John Heilemann]

I think I've been to the beach house.

[Alex Wagner]

No, it's bad. Like, it's bad. And it's bad for both the farmers. In seriousness, she's the Secretary of Agriculture. It's bad for both the farmers and the eaters. And, you know, I was interviewing somebody for the pond yesterday who's a farmer in Mississippi, and he's like, any farmer that tells you that things are okay right now is lying. He's like, I've got a bunch of rice that's just sitting there waiting for. No, because the markets aren't open, the foreign markets aren't open. And David just laid out that the food that we're importing, particularly in the wintertime from Central and South America, that's more expensive for everybody. And so he's created this problem both for people that are his supporters on both sides of the deal.

[John Heilemann]

You went and did that reporting, I remember, with farmers.

[Tom Holland]

Well, yeah. First of all, there's the tariffs, there's the labor shortages that are blooming right now because they're seizing most of the people who pick fruit and harvest vegetables. There's the reality that they have no solution for health care premiums, which are Skyrocketing. These are all budgetary concerns. If you can't afford your health insurance or you have to pay $500 more a month, you're definitely not buying more corn tortillas.

[Alex Wagner]

The corn tortillas are so random.

[Tom Holland]

But also, even the delivery. That's the Agriculture Secretary who can't even remember what the four things are. The tortilla, the chicken, the broccoli, and one other thing. They've run so many simulations, they've done so much data diving that they can't actually remember what the results are. They are completely unserious about the problem, the crisis of being able to afford a life in America, and they've made it exponential.

[David From]

There's a thing that needs to be said about also the corn tortilla. The reason she emphasized the corn tortilla is because the classic food of the hard pressed is pasta made from wheat. Trump put it, the largest supplier of pasta in the United States is Italy. And Trump put a tariff on Italian pasta, which would be the thing that you might otherwise have expected to see on that table. And even if you buy American made pasta, that American made pasta is made from Canadian durum wheat, on which there's now a tariff that there didn't used to be. So all the basic foods, he made them more expensive on purpose.

[John Heilemann]

Yeah. We buy a lot of Mac and cheese, and I can attest to the price going up and not down. No one's going anywhere. We have to sneak in a quick break, but all of us will be right back. Don't go anywhere. We're back with David, Tim and Alex. I want to bring up something that Trump has wrapped himself in in this second term, and that is his wealth and ostentatious associations. David talked about grocery prices, and no one thinks that Trump has ever grocery shopped. He doesn't even really cop to doing any parenting. He calls Barron Trump Melania's great son. But the idea that he doesn't even pretend to understand people's pain, the people that voted for him is so underscored by the things that he's pushing out. This is their message to America on the Fourth of July. It's a video of himself at his club at Mar a Lago New Year's Eve, and he says the people in this room are the best people in the country. I won't make you listen to it, but trust me, that's what he said. The best people.

[Aisha Gomez]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

The only thing that is the best people is your podcast. You know, people elected Donald Trump because the deal making Sort of rainmaker thing was intoxicating to them. They thought he would make them all rich. But as it turns out, rich people are not out there trying to get everybody else money. They're there to keep hold of their own money and amass more of it. And that has been so borne out by every aspect of the Trump administration. And we don't, I mean, we don't talk about the tax cuts, which are just the most massive redistribution of wealth in the last several decades, the healthcare premiums that we mentioned, the affordability crisis, and just generally the utter desensitization to the struggle, the lived reality of Americans. You can only be like kind of psychotically out of touch to put a video out like that in the middle of a $400 million ballroom renovation while people can't afford ground beef or health insurance or to go to the doctor or their kids to go to the doctor. I mean, it is genuinely some Nero playing the lute or whatever he was while Rome burned. That's where we are. That's where we are in the precipice. He looks at the stock market as the indicator of American health. It is a K shaped economy where the wealthiest are getting wealthy and everybody else is suffering. And that creates not only like an ethical quandary for the country, but an incredibly destabilized society. And that is dangerous. And I think, you know, we don't talk about that part of it, but we are a restive country. We are angry, we are isolated from each other, and we are increasingly poor. That does not make us a success story. And that creates a ton of pressure on both the government and the upper strata of American society.

[John Heilemann]

I have to sneak in a break, but I think it's also completely contradicts the promise he made to his own supporters 12 and a half months ago. We're going to sneak in a quick break. We'll have that conversation on the other side. David, from price of eggs. Price of eggs. Price of eggs. Eggs are up. Eggs are up. Eggs are up. What is your sense of the sort of the tailwinds, if you will, of the messaging being so audacious, the grifting being, again, so audacious, and the real economy, the price of health care, the price of housing, the price of groceries, the price of everything going up?

[David From]

Well, for better or for worse, the elections are not decided by the people who watch programs like this, who are intensely politically aware, intensely politically committed, hard to gaslight. They're decided by people who are a little more distant from the political process. And there's a lot of things that those people may not pay attention to. But you know what, they know exactly the cost of everything in their grocery bag, shopping cart. They know exactly what it costs today, what it cost last week, what it cost last month, and they know how much money is in their wallet to pay for what they bought. I want to say one more thing about that. Your point about Trump's ode to success. In his first term, Trump was always a rich man, but in his first term, by the standards of the American oligarchy, he was kind of a fake. In this second term, he has made, he and his family have made a billion dollars in a year in office, mostly by selling cryptocurrency. If you bought one of Trump's meme coins, you lost 95% of your investment. But he's made a billion dollars as president. So he, for the first time, he feels like a big winner and he made his money as president. It's an astonishing thing that is happening while everyone else is getting poorer and. Or almost everyone else is getting poorer.

[John Heilemann]

Yeah. And it gets a short shrift because I think the politics of it are unclear. But you're right. The grifting is all out in the open. And Trump 1.0, it was the hotel and everyone's staying at the hotel or feeling like they had to stay at the hotel this year. They're literally selling meme coins, as you said. DAVID FROM TO BE Continued. Thank you for joining us today. Alex and Tim, a pleasure to have both of you at the table. Thank you so much for being here. After the break, Donald Trump's Putinization of America. The next hour of Deadline Whitehouse starts after a very short break. Don't go anywhere.

[David From]

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