"Claims the 2020 election was stolen were - in Barr’s words – BS"

Summary

---

Deadline: White House — “Claims the 2020 election was stolen were – in Barr’s words – BS”

Date: July 16, 2026
Host: Nicolle Wallace, MS NOW

Main Theme and Purpose

This episode confronts Donald Trump’s ongoing, baseless claim that the 2020 election was “stolen,” focusing on the factual and political consequences of insisting on this “Big Lie.” Nicolle Wallace and her expert guests—former Maricopa County Recorder Stephen Richer, former DHS Chief of Staff Miles Taylor, and Senator Mark Warner—analyze the enduring damage of election denialism, the impact of Trump’s planned primetime address, the Republican Party’s complicity, and the broader implications for American democracy. The show also pivots to the battle for Senate control, spotlighting state-level races where Trump’s divisiveness may determine outcomes.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Bill Barr’s Testimony: The “Bullshit” at the Root

• [01:33] Bill Barr: Former Attorney General Barr recounts the flood of false fraud claims post-2020 election, stating:

  “I made it clear I did not agree with the idea of saying the election was stolen and putting out this stuff, which I told the President was bullshit.” (01:47)

• Insight: The show sets the tone by highlighting that even Trump’s own handpicked Attorney General rejected the stolen election narrative.

2. Trump’s Planned Primetime Speech and the Ongoing Lie

• Nicolle Wallace [02:07]: Opens by calling out Trump’s inability to accept defeat, previewing his upcoming Oval Office address, which will resurrect debunked claims—this time alleging new evidence of foreign interference, particularly from China and Venezuela.
  • “Tonight he will give a speech, but he will use...the office of the presidency to broadcast deadly lies. People died on January 6.” (03:10)
• Insight: Wallace underscores both the persistence and the danger of election misinformation, stressing the responsibility major networks have when platforming such claims.

3. How Elections Are Actually Run in America

• Stephen Richer [05:33]: Explains the decentralized, robust, and secure nature of U.S. elections:

  “Elections...are run by over 8,000 jurisdictions...tabulating paper ballots that cannot be digitally manipulated...Any allegations...about digital interference...should [be] seen through the prism of the fact that we have paper ballots...and we run post election audits.” (05:44)

• Insight: Emphasizes that the core processes are transparent, bipartisan, and significantly insulated from the sorts of vulnerabilities Trump alleges.

4. The Real-World Harm to Election Officials and Democracy

• Richer [06:33]: Details threats and hostile environments faced by election officials, including death threats and the need for increased security, all fueled by high-profile election denial.

  “What it translates into...for election officials...is at best a more confrontational environment...at worst, it means that people are sending you death threats...or that you have to spend millions of dollars...on security.” (07:04)

5. The “Dystopian” Litmus Test for Republican Nominees

• Richer [07:56]: Points out the absurdity of Republicans disowning the same voting systems when convenient:

  “It simply doesn't make sense...Those same tabulators were used in the November 2024 election in Georgia, which of course, President Trump won....That's dystopian and it's nauseating.” (08:22)

• Insight: Highlights how bad-faith arguments undermine not just faith in process but also party credibility.

6. Republican Angst and the Fox News Factor

• Miles Taylor [08:54]: Skewers the GOP for private panic over Trump’s election focus:

  “Republicans in the Senate and the House are leaking like a broken flower pot to media about how nervous they are tonight...You would think if they had confidence in the goods...they would say, yeah, let him have it, Mr. President. Instead they're like, please don't do the sore loser thing again.” (09:03)

• Fox News Lawsuit: Both Wallace and Taylor reference Fox’s $1B settlement with Dominion, showing the legal and reputational hazards of amplifying known lies.

  “They should be careful. This guy doesn't have their backs. Donald Trump may say or do things that could put them in a difficult position.” (16:29)

7. The Actual Intelligence Record on 2020 Election Security

• Miles Taylor [11:25]: Recaps how Trump was thoroughly briefed in 2018 (and again after) on the known threats and lack of interference:

  “The intelligence community already declassified this stuff March 1, 2021....Chinese may have influenced social media...but there was no evidence that the election was affected by it.” (12:30)

• Chris Krebs Clip [13:16]: Fired CISA chief asserts:

  “There is no foreign power that is flipping votes...This was a secure election.” (13:27)

8. The Political Damage: Undermining Republican Faith in Democracy

• Richer [19:33]: Remarks on tangible harm to the party's base:

  “Confidence shot up with the Republican Party...Now it's back down to the low 60s that the midterm elections will be fair...It's all a bit mystifying.” (19:33)

• Insight: Election denial isn’t just a political tactic—it erodes turnout and undercuts party prospects nationwide.

9. Senate Confirmation Hearings—Obligated to the Big Lie

• Clip [23:03]: DNI nominee Jay Clayton pointedly refuses to say Biden “won,” merely that he was “certified,” revealing the chilling effect of Trumpism within the ranks.

  Senator Warner [23:51]: “I was hugely disappointed...We need someone that can speak truth to power. And that was not what happened at the hearing yesterday.”

• Wallace [25:13]: “How does Jay Clayton represent the United States...if you can't assert a basic truth about who won the 2020 election?”
• Warner [27:20]: Warns the greater danger is the interim DNI and the risk to national security if loyalty to Trump’s narrative trumps truth.

10. The Senate Battlegrounds: Effects of Trump’s Polarization

• [33:45] Wallace: Democrats see opportunity in Georgia, North Carolina, and Texas as Trump’s toxicity hurts local GOP candidates—especially those mired in scandal (TX AG Ken Paxton) or connected to extremists (GA candidate Mike Collins).
• Mark McKinnon [35:26]: Lays out the unusual competitiveness of Texas thanks to candidate quality and Republican missteps.

  “I am now saying that I think it's a real possibility that, that James Talarico may win this election for a bunch of reasons... He's redefining the election.” (36:08)

• Sam Stein [38:08]: Points out the structural hurdles Democrats face and the astonishingly weak campaign being run by Paxton.

  “It does, again, go back to this idea that one candidate is hustling for their votes and the other one is just coasting and taking the votes for granted. I don't think Paxton can afford to skip the debates for that reason.” (43:51)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Bill Barr on fraud claims:
  “I told the President [the 2020 election claims] was bullshit.” — Bill Barr [01:47]
• Nicolle Wallace on Trump’s refusal to concede:
  “He will use...the office of the presidency to broadcast deadly lies. People died on January 6.” [03:10]
• Stephen Richer on tabulation security:
  “We have over 8,000 jurisdictions...tabulating paper ballots that cannot be digitally manipulated and that will be hand count audited after the election.” [05:36]
• Miles Taylor on GOP discomfort:
  “Republicans...are leaking like a broken flower pot...You are getting our butts kicked out there. It is embarrassing.” [09:03]
• Chris Krebs on 2020 election:
  “There is no foreign power that is flipping votes. There's no domestic actor flipping votes. I did it right. We did it right. This was a secure election.” [13:27]
• Senator Mark Warner on the importance of truth:
  “We need someone that can speak truth to power. And that was not what happened at the hearing yesterday.” [27:03]
• Mark McKinnon on Texas dynamics:
  “Talarico is...redefining what the elections are about in a way that are very different than past elections.” [36:08]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |-------------------------------------------------|---------------| | Bill Barr on the 2020 fraud claims | 01:33–02:07 | | Trump’s primetime speech preview | 02:07–05:33 | | Stephen Richer on election administration | 05:33–07:22 | | Impact of election denial on officials | 06:33–07:22 | | Internal GOP reactions, Fox News lawsuit | 08:54–16:23 | | Intelligence reports on 2020 interference | 11:25–12:58 | | Chris Krebs on election security | 13:16–13:42 | | The natural extensions of platforming a lie | 14:33–16:23 | | Effects on GOP voter confidence | 19:01–20:27 | | Jay Clayton’s Senate testimony | 23:03–26:29 | | Senator Warner on election security narrative | 28:17–32:58 | | Senate campaigns - Georgia, Texas, North Carolina | 33:45–43:56 |

---

Tone and Takeaways

The discussion is direct, unsparing, and often urgent—matching Wallace’s signature blend of analytic clarity and incredulity at ongoing political dysfunction. Trump’s election lies are dissected not only as falsehoods but as dangerous acts with real world consequences for democracy, security, and even the GOP’s self-interest. Guests, spanning staunch local officials to national security veterans and seasoned political strategists, reinforce the message: There are facts. There is process. And denialism is corroding American politics from the top down.

---

For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

• You’ll learn:
  • Why claims of stolen elections are repeatedly debunked—by Republican allies, intelligence reports, and election officials of both parties.
  • How election denial is damaging not just democratic faith but also the Republican Party itself.
  • The current political climate, where even Senate nominees cannot or will not say who legitimately won the presidency—and why that is dangerous.
  • The implications for key 2026 Senate races, especially where Trump’s toxicity or chaos is shaping outcomes.
• Memorable for:
  • The forcefulness of Wallace and her guests in defending foundational democratic truths.
  • The behind-the-scenes look at how both parties (and the media) are bracing for more rounds of disinformation.
  • Honest, sometimes scathing, real talk about the state of the Republican Party in the Trump era.

---

Summary prepared for those seeking clarity and key takeaways on the ongoing U.S. election denial debate, Republican Party struggles, and the 2026 Senate landscape.

Transcript

[Stephanie Ruhle]

Join me Cyndi Lauper with chef Michelle Bernstein and Dr. Panico to talk about psoriasis and psoriatic arthritis, the potential connection and risk of developing permanent joint damage.

[Cosentyx Advertisement Voice]

Cosentic secukinumab is prescribed for adults with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis 300mg dose and adults with active psoriatic arthritis 150mg dose. Don't use if you're allergic to Cosentyx before starting, get checked for tuberculosis. An increased risk of infections and lowered ability to fight them may occur. Like tuberculosis or other serious bacterial, fungal or viral infections, some are fatal. Tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms like fevers, sweats, chills, muscle aches or cough had a vaccine or planned to, or if inflammatory bowel disease symptoms develop or worsen, serious allergic reactions and severe eczema like skin reactions may occur. Learn more at 1-844-cosentyx or cosentyx.com Cindy,

[Stephanie Ruhle]

you better eat your Wheaties today because there's a lot of news to cover. Money time for the business. All eyes on the new Fed chair. The economic fallout from the war is a temporary power. The president is now a major crypto industry operator. Is this White House for sale? Politics Is there an energy to respond to this aggressive gerrymandering? It has never been more important to be informed and engaged.

Money Power Politics with Stephanie rule, weekdays at 9am Eastern on Ms. Now.

[Bill Barr]

There was an avalanche of all these allegations of fraud that built up over a number of days and it was like playing whack a mole because something would come out one day and then the next day it would be another issue. Also, I was influenced by the fact that all the early claims that I understood were completely bogus and silly and usually based on complete misinformation. I made it clear I did not agree with the idea of saying the election was stolen and putting out this stuff, which I told the President was bullshit.

[Nicole Wallace]

Hi again everybody. It's now five o' clock in the East. Bill Barr, Donald Trump's very MAGA friendly, very conservative, hand picked second Attorney General, knew it was, as he said there, quote, bullshit. He knew it. We knew it. Republicans who were reelected to Congress knew it. That the claims of the 2020 election was stolen from Donald Trump again, in Barr's words, were bs. But to this day, Donald Trump cannot accept his defeat. And so tonight he will be bringing his delusional effort, his election lies to a new platform, a primetime address to the nation. According to the Washington Post, Donald Trump's address tonight at 9:00pm Eastern, quote, We use findings from reexamined government files to argue that the country's election infrastructure has volunte vulnerabilities. According to two people briefed on the plan. The president could use the address to press his long standing allegations of foreign interference in the 2020 election, the results of which he has never accepted. The speech, in part will highlight claims that China accessed US Voter data, said the people who spoke anonymously to discuss a plan that has not been made public. Trump is also expected to discuss findings related to Venezuela. They said, end quote. The 2020 election was not rigged, was not defrauded. It has been relitigated and relitigated and relitigated with each examination, most of them done by Trump allies supporting the original result that Donald Trump lost to President Joe Biden. Yet people around Donald Trump are vying for positions around him like what we've just been discussing his nominee to be the Director of National Intelligence, Jay Clayton yesterday so afraid of telling the truth that he would rather embarrass himself on the national stage than say that Joe Biden won and Donald Trump lost. Politico has new reporting that many Republicans are frustrated with this, that Trump is again bringing attention to his election conspiracies and his grievances. But it is their party's compliance with all of his lies all of these years later that have gotten us to where we are today, a news cycle where Republicans would be much better served if Donald Trump was giving a speech about the price of eggs or gas. Instead. Tonight he will give a speech, but he will use a powerful tool of the presidency, the Oval Office, the deference networks will give him to address the nation in primetime. And he will use that deference. He will use those privileges that come with the office of the presidency to broadcast deadly lies. People died on January 6. He will do that because I don't know why. Maybe he wasn't loved enough as a kid, but he can't accept defeat that he actually lost. In an election where he controlled every lever of the federal government. The only times he won actually were when Democratic presidents controlled every lever of the executive branch of the government. As I've said every day this week, make that make sense. Donald Trump's inability to face the truth, that he lost the 2020 presidential election is where we begin the hour with former county recorder for Maricopa County, Arizona, now fellow at the Cato Institute, Stephen Richer. Also joining us, former DHS chief of staff during Donald Trump's first term, Miles Taylor. Stephen, take me inside how you want the American people to listen to what's going to happen tonight.

[Stephen Richer]

I think this is an opportune time to remember how elections are actually run in the United States, which is at the jurisdictional level. And we have over 8,000 jurisdictions that are run by Republicans and Democrats that are tabulating on closed systems, systems not connected to the Internet. They're tabulating paper ballots that cannot be digitally manipulated and that will be hand count audited after the election. So any allegations that you hear tonight about digital interference from China, from Russia, from Iran, from wherever, you should see that through the prism of the fact that we have paper ballots in the United States and that we use tabulators that are tested before and after and we run post election audits.

[Nicole Wallace]

Stephen, what does it mean for election workers in America that he's going to use the biggest platform, the biggest bully pulpit available to him to sow distrust in our elections?

[Stephen Richer]

Well, I've seen the downstream consequences of this. In fact, I just wrote about it today in the Arizona Republic that when people like Donald Trump, like Carrie Lake, talk about stolen elections, it's not something that just lives on Twitter. It's not something that's just a fun political game. What it translates into for election officials actually on the ground is at best a more confrontational environment, is at best it's harder to recruit poll workers is at best you have to answer more emails. At worst, it means that people are sending you death threats or that you have to spend millions of dollars, as we did in Maricopa county, on security of your tabulation center, something that simply did not exist 15 years ago.

[Nicole Wallace]

What does it say about our information ecosystem that Trump is going to try to convince his sizable base that when Barack Obama was the president, the election was secure because he won, that when Joe Biden was the president, the election was secure, he won. But that when he was president, when Rick Grenell, who was then followed by John Ratcliffe, who's the current director of the CIA, he didn't win and the elections weren't secure.

[Stephen Richer]

Well, it simply doesn't make sense because earlier in the week, a number of the president's supporters were making allegations about the tabulators used in Georgia's November 2020 presidential election. Those same tabulators were used in the November 2024 election in Georgia, which of course, President Trump won. And they were used, of course, in all intervening elections in which many Republicans won. It doesn't make sense. It's not logical. And that's why it's such a perfect litmus test for this parade of appointees. Even Article 3 judges who have to sit in front of the Senate and say, well, gosh, I just don't have enough information. I don't know who won the 2020 election. And that is, that's dystopian and it's nauseating.

[Nicole Wallace]

Miles Taylor, how are you prepared to sort of process and talk about what is set to happen tonight?

[Miles Taylor]

It's Sore Loser night again at the White House, Nicole. I mean, it's why we're seeing multiple news.

[Nicole Wallace]

You should have left the cage there, right?

[Miles Taylor]

That's right. Look, Republicans in the Senate and the House are leaking like a broken flower pot to media about how nervous they are tonight. That's what people should take away, is that Republicans don't want the President talking about this. You would think if they had confidence in the goods that Donald Trump was allegedly gonna show tonight, they would say, yeah, let him have it, Mr. President. Instead they're like, please don't do the sore loser thing again. You are getting our butts kicked out there. It is embarrassing. And it is embarrassing, Nicole. I'll tell you why. Donald Trump's gonna pretend, listen to his speech. He's gonna pretend tonight like he unearthed information about the Chinese trying to meddle in our elections. I'm going to burst his bubble. He might not remember this, but we briefed him on it in 2018, two years before the 2020 election. I can tell you firsthand, Donald Trump was made aware that the Chinese were trying to meddle in our elections. And we had him go deliver public remarks about it. He's known about this. There's nothing new or groundbreaking since then. He's just, I guess, remembered that now, or it's a revelation to him. And so he's gonna try to make us all feel like this is new. It's not new, it's old. And I think Republicans on the Hill, as they've started to see little bits leaked out of the White House of what's going to happen tonight are saying, oh, no, it's going to be worse than we thought. We're gonna see an old man who's re encountered information that he was briefed on years ago, pretend it's new, try to convince us to get excited, and it's just going to be a sad, sad spectacle.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, Miles, you were there. Tell me how the story will be pieced together. He will say that when I was president last time and Rick Grinnell was my Director of National Intelligence, replaced by John Ratcliffe, who was my director of national intelligence on election day in 2020, they missed a stack of intel that would have revealed what. I mean, we vote on paper ballots. The paper ballots in Georgia were counted by hand. What is he going to say he missed while he was president? While Rick Grenell and John Ratcliffe were in charge of the nation's intelligence agencies?

[Miles Taylor]

Well, look for any of the networks that decides to cover this. I don't think they should, but they'll be able to zoom in, I hope, on John Ratcliffe's face. Because there's going to be a point here where Trump says things that should be embarrassing to John Ratcliffe. If there really were files that the intelligence community had that they unearthed that said something about China trying to steer the election for Donald Trump, well, it's gonna be on the folks sitting in front of him to have brought that information up to him or not. But here's the other hard thing, Nicole. The intelligence community already declassified this stuff March 1, 2021. Anyone watching right now can go Google the intelligence community assessment. All of the intelligence agencies looked at what happened in 2021. They did that because we got Trump to sign an executive order before he left office to require them to produce it. And they said, here's what we got. Here's what we saw. They talked about China. There's folks in that report in the intelligence community that say, you know, China might have meddled a little bit to help Donald Trump. We don't think it affected the election. No one was hiding the ball about that. Chinese may have influenced social media. Chinese may have tried to get Donald Trump a little bit of a boost, but there was no evidence that the election was affected by it. There was no evidence that they changed ballots, as Stephen noted. And there is nothing he's going to be able to say tonight to counter that. And if he is, if there was a smoking gun, it's his fault and his team's fault that it wasn't brought to the public attention sooner. But I don't think that's what we're going to see.

[Nicole Wallace]

Let me show both of you what Chris Krebs said. This was a job performance that cost him his job, protecting US Elections from foreign interference.

[Chris Krebs]

We did a good job. We did it right. I do it a thousand times over.

[Senator Mark Warner]

The president says, you're dead wrong about election security. And to him, you say, what?

[Chris Krebs]

There is no foreign power that is flipping votes. There's no domestic actor flipping votes. I did it right. We did it right. This was a secure election.

[Nicole Wallace]

Now, ominously, hauntingly, both men are out of work, are out of those jobs. Scott Pelley has been fired by Trump's allies running cbs. And Chris Krebs was fired for the act of a secure election and being transparent with the American people about achieving his aim of making sure we had a secure election. Stephen, just tell me what happens if Donald Trump is going to assert that that wasn't true, that on Donald Trump's watch because he was the president in 2020, the election wasn't secure. Like, does Fox get their money back from. I mean, is he going to reverse engineer reality? What are the natural extensions of platforming a lie as dangerous as to assert that what Chris Krebs said there wasn't the truth as we all know it was?

[Stephen Richer]

Yeah, and that's an important reminder that Fox lost nearly $1 billion to Dominion Tabulation Systems for their lies about the 2020 election and about the possibility of tabulators flipping votes from one candidate to another. Again, we're on paper ballots. And I want to reiterate the distinction that, Mr. Krebs and that, Miles, which is China attacking websites or populating social media or other ways propagating disinformation, Entirely possible. I defer to the national intelligence community. China somehow able to manipulate paper ballots or tabulators that are overseen by physical security measures by both Republicans and Democrats and are under video surveillance.

[Senator Mark Warner]

That just.

[Stephen Richer]

That just can't happen. And so it's important to be able to make that distinction, because I fear that president will say. The president will say, because one happened, therefore, all of our ballots were corrupt.

[Nicole Wallace]

Miles, you know, you talked about the coverage of this. One, what are your thoughts on how it should be covered? And two, you know, we know from Fox News that the reason they paid nearly a billion dollars to Dominion is because we read their emails and their text messages to one another, where they reveal to one another that they know that the conspiracy theories were false. And that's where Dominion achieved known falsity, which is the very, very high standard for a successful defamation case, which is why they got almost a billion dollars for the folks who cost their company nearly a billion dollars because they had the known falsity of the content they broadcast. What do they do with this?

[Miles Taylor]

Well, I have got to think at a lot of these networks, you're gonna see people who are very nervous who remember those lawsuits. If I was over at Fox News right now and I was a producer, I would say, I don't think we cover this tonight. But, okay, if we have to cover it tonight. Everyone be careful, please don't bankrupt the network. Especially if the President says things that in us amplifying we might get sued for. They should be careful. This guy doesn't have their backs. Donald Trump may say or do things that could put them in a difficult position. He just met this week. It was reported that he met this week with a bunch of the election conspiracy theorists who have advised him in the past. He's got a crackpot cabinet right now that's feeding him this false information. He's gonna be putting people out there in a difficult legal position as to how people should actually cover it. I mean, Nicole, look, I don't think they should carry it live, but if they do, they should fact check it. It's actually what we decided to do tonight. Over at defiance.org, we're just gonna pull together election experts, we're gonna pull together former government officials, we're gonna sit there and we're gonna dissect this piece by piece. So Donald Trump doesn't just get to put a false narrative out in the world. Let it stew overnight and into the morning, that in real time, people who've seen these things happen are responding to it and telling the truth. So I'm gonna sit there. Anyone who wants to join me, I'm gonna sit there live. I'm gonna go through this piece by piece. Cites documents that I've helped produce for him or that I know he's seen or that he denies. We're just gonna get that truth out there. But the bigger thing, Nicole, that doesn't matter nearly as much. Cuz I think, I really think this is going to be deflated the moment that the President opens his mouth. Cuz there's not gonna be anything there. The bigger picture is how do Republicans react to being associated once again with this sore loser framing. And you saw Jake Clayton, his nominee to be Director of National Intelligence, simply flail in front of Jon Ossoff in the US Senate in his confirmation hearing yesterday. When asked who won the 2020 election, you could see it on his face. Jay Clayton knew that Joe Biden won in 2020. Jon Ossoff knew. Everyone watching it knew. But Jay Clayton wasn't allowed to say that Donald Trump won the 2020 election because if he did, he might get his nomination pulled. That was the unseen thing being said in that room. These folks are embarrassed by Donald Trump continuing to the big lie. And now tonight, Trump's gonna try to make it the bigger lie. But I think that will blow back on him.

[Nicole Wallace]

Stephen One of the Republican voices that cuts through on this is Thomas Massie, who said, why are Republicans attacking elections? Trump has won two of the last three presidential contests. Republicans control the Senate, they control the House, they control a lot of governorships, they control a lot of state legislative seats across the country in red states and blue states alike. What is the damage to the Republican Party to deflate their own voters? Faith in the act of voting?

[Stephen Richer]

Yeah, it's all a bit mystifying because the 2024 election cycle was quite successful for President Trump and for Republicans who were running down ticket. And following that 2024 election, confidence shot up with the Republican Party. It was at about 80%. Now it's back down to the low 60s. That the midterm elections will be fair and accurate and lawful. Some people say that the president is doing this all as pretext for more federal government involvement in the administration of the elections. Other people are saying that this is all justification for a post election investigation or contestation of the results. As for why President Trump continues to do this, I'll leave it to the political pundits, but I find both of those hypotheses at least possible, if not plausible.

[Nicole Wallace]

Mm, me too, unfortunately. Steven, Richard, we're gonna need you. Miles Taylor, we're gonna need you, too. Thank you both for starting us off today. When we come back, the top Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee on the election lies Donald Trump has been telling for more than six years, the debunked claims he's expected to spew tonight, and why the whole world can see with their own eyes the utter political desperation of the American presidency right now. Also ahead, three very strong Democratic candidates running for Senate against three relatively weak Republicans. How Trump's deep unpopularity and some new GOP scandals could go a long way to determining control of the Senate in November. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

[Nick Confessori]

Here's what happened when one journalist reported on DEI programs.

I decided to just focus on the University of Michigan. I obtained internal documents that showed that the school had spent about a quarter of a billion dollars on DEI programs. I spent two weeks in Ann Arbor talking to everybody I could find. The unintended consequences of these programs. They had sort of left everybody dissatisfied, and this expensive machinery the school had built just imploded. If you're a journalist, you are not on anyone's team. All you're trying to do is figure out as many of the facts as you can gather. The facts are going to guide you to where the story lands you're not taking sides. I'm Nick Confessori. I'm an investigations reporter for the New York Times.

Journalists like Nick follow the facts wherever they lead. They go where news breaks, get answers firsthand and publish what they find. That's fact based reporting. Seek it out if you don't already.

[Carl's Jr. Advertisement Voice]

Yeah, maxing is so maxing right now, bro. Get ready for spicy chicken maxing because Carl's Jr. Is saving you big with a 5.99 maxed out double stack, double stack double stack spicy chicken sandwich. Seriously, just 5.99 double stack spicy chicken. This is unreal value in the bromosphere. The new spicy chicken Max wallet friendly. Max tasty only at Carl's Jr available for a limited time at participating restaurants. Tax unincluded, not valid for use within a combo or a combination with any other offered discount.

[Stephanie Ruhle]

There's a lot of news to cover.

Money.

The economic fallout from the war. Is it temporary power? Is this White House for sale?

Politics.

What is your message to the country right now?

Money. Power. Politics. With Stephanie rule, weekdays at 9:00am Eastern on Ms. Now,

[Senator Mark Warner]

do you deny that Joe Biden won the 2020 election, Senator?

[Sam Stein]

I'm not.

[Cosentyx Advertisement Voice]

I'm not an election denier.

[Nick Confessori]

Joe.

[Miles Taylor]

Joe Biden was certified as the President

[Senator Mark Warner]

of the United States.

[Nicole Wallace]

It was a stunning appearance yesterday before the Senate Intelligence Committee by the nominee to be the nation's Director of National Intelligence, Jay Clayton, who, as you just heard when asked by the committee's Vice chairman, Senator Mark Warner, would not explicitly say that Joe Biden won. W O N1 was a word that wouldn't come out of his mouth the 2020 election, only that he was certified as the President. I want to bring in Democratic Senator Mark Warner of Virginia, the Vice Chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee. What did you think of that moment?

[Senator Mark Warner]

Well, Nicole, I've known Jay Clayton for some time. I actually have worked well with him and I was hugely disappointed. I was disappointed there. I was disappointed in subsequent questioning when he seemed to not have a view or know much about when the former Director Tulsi Gabbard came down and completely, I believe illegally tried to interfere in the Georgia Fulton county grabbing of the ballots. The job of the Director of National Intelligence has nothing to do with domestic law enforcement actions, which I think is a phony action to start with there. But the fact that she showed up and he had no comment or acted like he didn't know strained my credibility. I got to quickly add, though, this is why I'm still sleeping over this and want to hear the president tonight. We do know one thing, that Bill Pulte, who is the acting dni, is a disaster, a national security threat. And if we're going to get to the point of, you know, renewing some of our surveillance powers, what's called section 702, we're not going to do it while Pulte's still there. So we need to get a permanent dni. But I was bitterly disappointed or very disappointed with Jay Clayton's responses.

[Nicole Wallace]

How does Jay Clayton represent the United States of America?

[Bill Barr]

America.

[Nicole Wallace]

With other intelligence chiefs from other nations, if you can't assert a basic truth about who won the 2020 election?

[Senator Mark Warner]

Well, you make a very good point. I was almost, I'm thinking back, and I always think about it afterwards. Maybe I should have asked who won in 2012, 2008, 2004, when any of those elicited a response, or it would have said simply certification. But you, you raise a very, very fair question. And again, we've seen this pattern, or it seems to be a prerequisite that no Trump nominee can acknowledge the truth about what happened in 2020. We're going to hear an address from the president tonight. I think mostly still focus on his obsession about his loss in 2020. And it's going to be, I think, a dangerous spewing of half truths or non truths. But this was not just Mr. Clayton. I've seen many other Trump nominees refuse to acknowledge that Joe Biden won in 2020.

[Nicole Wallace]

Are you still thinking about voting for Jay Clayton?

[Senator Mark Warner]

I've not reached the final decision, but I, I found his performance more than troubling.

[Miles Taylor]

I'll make what, in your view is.

[Senator Mark Warner]

I want to hear from Trump tonight. I want to hear from Trump tonight. I mean, I hope we'll get to that subject, too. How outrageous I believe it's going to be. And we may need to educate the audience about Intel 101, how the process works. But, but it was, you know, my hope, having dealt with Clayton in the past, that I would have seen a much stronger response because we need someone that can speak truth to power. And that was not what happened at the hearing yesterday.

[Nicole Wallace]

In your view, what is more dangerous in a national security context, someone who says things that we know are lies but may believe them, or someone who knowingly lies, as I think most people who know Jay Clayton believe he did yesterday. By refusing to say that Joe Biden won in 2020,

[Senator Mark Warner]

I would say what may be the most dangerous is Bill Pulte, who's got a proven record of weaponizing confidential information And a job that's fairly innocuous, helping oversee the federal housing agencies where he took personal mortgage information of people like Tishtla James and my colleague Adam Schiff and others, Lisa Cook, and tried to politically manipulate that confidential information, putting him in charge of 18 intelligence agencies. What could go wrong other than we could have our whole national security apparatus exposed? We may see some of that tonight. We'll see. But again, I'm going to go through, hear what happens tonight. But Nicole Jay's answers were more than disturbing to me. We need more than ever now with our allies around the world to restore some kind of faith in America's intelligence system.

[Nicole Wallace]

Let's talk about tonight. Based on all the reporting, it sounds like Donald Trump is going to say that when he ran in 2016 and President Barack Obama and John Brennan and Jim Comey were in charge of U.S. national Security and intelligence, the election was secure and he won. In 2024, when Joe Biden was the president and all of his national security officials were in charge, that election was fine. He won. It seems that he's going to say when he was in charge and John Ratcliffe was the director of national intelligence, preceded by Rick Grinnell, it wasn't secure. Tell me how that is something, how we're even at a moment where that's something that he's going to try to sell to his base.

[Senator Mark Warner]

Amen. I mean, it's, you know, you've taken some of my lines. If, if we see what happens, side is what we expect. Let me tell you, just as we those folks who are going to view or listen to what the president says, I was either chairman or vice chairman through this whole period, and I can assure you the intelligence community, and there's always been some dissenters, these elections were secure and safe in 2020. And the irony here, Nicole, is much of the security in 2020 was put in place by the first Trump administration after the massive Russian intervention in 2016. So things like the Foreign Malign Influence center, the ODNI offices at the FBI, there's an office at the National Security Agency, were all put in place to make our election secure. Matter of fact, cisa, the cybersecurity agency run by a Trump appointee, Chris Krebs, said after the election of 2020, safest elections ever, of course, that cost him his job. He got fired for telling the truth. So the idea that somehow Donald Trump is going to say, surprise, hidden new intelligence baffles the mind. But we've never seen any constraint from this president when it comes to Truth, particularly when his policies are failing the American public at such a huge, huge level.

[Nicole Wallace]

Let me just quickly ask you if you or your committee have been briefed on any of the intelligence that he's expected to broadcast to the country tonight.

[Senator Mark Warner]

I know about all of the intelligence. You know, the intelligence community gets literally thousands of inputs every day. It is the job of the intelligence analyst to distill that, see what's true, make judgments. And one of the things I've been concerned about for some time is, you know, that folks that analysis that want to tell the truth will get fired. We saw that happen earlier when the, after the first Iran bombing, when the Defense Intelligence Agency general who was in charge said, we did a good job, but we didn't obliterate their enriched uranium. Obviously the case, we're still trying to go after it. He got fired for that. So tonight, you know, could he pick. And if he suddenly says, oh, we've got this one piece, one factoid that's never been around before, that's what the job of the intelligence agencies are, to analyze that. And as you said, if the, the beginning, you took my line. If you're saying that your current director of CIA, John Radcliffe, who is in 2020, the director of National Intelligence, somehow got it wrong, why is he your CIA director today? And the whole assessment, the whole intelligence analysis, and he says this came to, just came to life or something. He got briefed on the consensus opinion of the intelligence community on January 7, 2025. I'm sorry, 2021, before he left office. Now, maybe his mind was still a little rumpled since it was a day after the attempted takeover of the transfer of power with the riots and the marauders that attacked the Capitol on January 6th. Maybe he wasn't listening, but he got fully briefed on the intelligence assessment. If he comes up tonight, I have no foggy idea what he could say that would undermine that consensus, other than making stuff up or taking some individual factoid that's not been analyzed or proven, and use that as some excuse. I've said since the beginning of this year, my greatest fear is not his policies, but the fact that Donald Trump may try to intervene and prohibit a free and fair election in 2026. And how we come back as a nation from that is beyond troubling for me. So I just pray that everybody tonight, whether you're Trump supporter or non supporter, you take what he says with a grain of salt and wait for fact checking. Lord knows what he says tonight will probably have very little relationship to truth.

[Nicole Wallace]

We'll continue to call on you on this story. Senator Marco, thank you very much for making time to talk to us today.

[Senator Mark Warner]

Thank you, Nicole.

[Nicole Wallace]

When we come back, the battle for control of the Senate goes right through the American south where three Democrats are running strong, strong and raising massive amounts of money against Republican candidates saddled with Donald Trump's deep unpopularity. That's our next story. Don't go anywhere.

[Stephanie Ruhle]

There's a lot of news to cover. Money, the economic fallout from the war, is it temporary power? Is this White House for sale?

Politics?

What is your message to the country right now?

Money, power, politics. With Stephanie rule, weekdays at 9am Eastern on Ms. Now,

[Nicole Wallace]

as Democrats make their arguments to retake the Senate, they are getting a boost thanks to a perfect storm of events happening in a trio of states that Donald Trump won just a year and a half ago. In Georgia, in North Carolina and in Texas, Democrats Roy Ossoff, Jon Ossoff, sorry, Roy Cooper and James Talarico have run strong campaigns thanks in part to massive fundraising efforts. But what is giving Democrats even more hope for success is the complete clown show of candidates the Republican Party is running in two of these Sunbelt states that again, Trump won 20 months ago. Today, Georgia's Republican Senate nominee, Mike Collins is facing questions about the close ties he has with his son in law. David Allen Scheer, who CNN is reporting, is a pro white nationalist social media influencer with a track record of sharing anti Semitic material and Nazi imagery and comments across the Internet. And over in Texas, the state's attorney general, Ken Paxton and his litany of scandals ranging from allegations of corruption to infidelity to a sweetheart plea deal for a convicted child sex abuser, is forcing Republicans to treat the state that Trump won by 13 points in 2024 like a swing state. I want to bring in former advisor to George W. Bush and Senator John McCain. My friend Mark McKinnon. Also joining us, managing editor at the Bulwark, contributor Sam Stein. Mark, it's so nice to see both of you, but I haven't seen you in even longer. Mark McKinnon, it's nice to see you. Texas is such a reach state, a fever dream. Tell me what's really going on on the ground with Talarico and Paxton.

[Mark McKinnon]

Well, it's been a fever dream for a long time, Nicole. And I am usually the one who every cycle or two, the press or people you know come to me and say, oh, McKinnon, you worked in Texas. You worked for Ann Richards and for Georgia. Push both parties tell us what's happening, because there's this notion that. And it's a mythology based largely on rising demographics. They think because there's growing Hispanic population, they're voting Democratic, and therefore Texas should be turning. Turning blue. And so. But I'm the guy that always pushes back on this. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Even Ann Richards, you know, campaign saying that she, you know, she'd kill more people on death row than her opponents. It's a very conservative state. And so. But. But something's really happening here, and the tide has shifted. I am, I am now saying that I think it's a real possibility that, that James Talarico may win this election for a bunch of reasons. First of all, he's. He's such a unique candidate. And, Nicole, we know from running campaigns that you don't win campaigns by running the last campaign. Like generals don't win wars by winning the last war. Republicans are running the last war, the last campaign with Paxton and trying to do the culture wars. The thing about Talarico is that he's very. He's redefining the election. And this happens every once in a while with candidates like Obama, George W. Bush, talking about compassionate conservatism. They're looking forward and redefining what the elections are about in a way that are very different than past elections. And that's why I think there's such a groundswell for Talarico. I mean, he's a Presbyterian seminarian. He's out Bibleing the Republicans, especially Ken Paxton. The only time he heard about the Bible is when his wife filed for divorce on biblical grounds. But it's, it's really. I think it's a possibility, particularly when you look at the 2018 election with, with Ted Cruz and the El Paso candidate out there, the congressman.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, better than. Yeah, yeah.

[Mark McKinnon]

Beto was a good candidate, and Cruz is obviously flawed. But in this case, I think Tall Rico is going to be better because he learned lessons from Beto, because Beto nationalized that race. And I think that Paxton is going to be way less popular than Ted Cruz, as difficult as that sounds.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, that's how I see it from outside. But Sam Stein, I guess that the, the flip side of that is, how good do you have to be? And James Talarico, I think, by all, I think Ted Cruz is talking about what a good candidate is and how bad you have to be. I mean, Ken Paxton's most brutal indictment comes from someone who's married to him in terms of his character. I mean, it does speak to how difficult it is to win in 70 states for Democrats, even with the best Democratic candidate running against the worst Republican.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, sure. First, I want to acknowledge that Mark's biblical grounds comment was very, very good, very savvy. That's why he's a pro and he's on these shows. I appreciated that. Mark.

[Nicole Wallace]

Secondly, not just on the shows, but like on the plane. That's why Mark's, you know, in the cockpit with the candidate.

[Sam Stein]

It was good.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

Let's not give it too much shine, but it was very good. I will say, I think, look, Mark knows the state much better than. But I think you're right, which is how much structural. Structural pressures does he have to push against? Right. So Texas is a conservative state. Latino voters are not a monolith. Obviously, we saw that in 2024. And Paxton is still relatively new on the scene, even though he has been holding office in Texas for a little while. I will say this, the thing that's kind of stood out to me twofold here. One, Talarico has not done what Beto did against Cruz. Beto nationalized race, as Mark noted. He took fairly liberal positions, and he ran on it, and he got a lot of people excited about it. And his. His premise was that if he could just get enough young people and sort of unattentive voters out in Texas, he could actually win that seat. So he did things like, you know, assault weapons bans, for instance, and it worked to a degree. It left him, obviously, a couple percentage points short. Talerico is not doing that. He's not. He's not. And yet he's still raising a lot of money, but he's not taking those positions that could box him in from a cultural perspective. But the other thing here is that Ken Paxton, I just am sort of bewildered and confused by the campaign he is running, because what we've seen from Paxton on the trail is that he's not on the trip. So Most infamously, on July 4, he was spotted in London. And usually you got to run through the tape, Right. Like, even if you. Even in Texas, even a state that is conservative, certainly with this polling data, you would think, okay, I have four months to make this really work, and then I could go to London. But that's not what's happening here. And he seems to be taking this for granted. And with the wave election climate that we're feeling right now, that seems like it could bite him in the butt.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mark McKinnon]

Not only was not only London, but Talarico is with Willie Nelson at the July 4th.

[Bill Barr]

Big.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, and there's that. There's that. All right. So many more stories to get to on this front. No one's going anywhere. We have to sneak in a quick break. We'll all be right back.

[Ken Paxton Opponent]

Ken Paxton's billionaire handlers don't let him answer questions in public. He hasn't appeared on a debate stage in more than a decade. He refuses to answer really basic questions like why did you give an Epstein style sweetheart deal to an admitted child predator? Adam Hoffman? How did you become a multimillionaire on a government salary? I am challenging Ken Paxton to three televised debates. I'll be on that debate stage because I answer to the people of Texas. Ken Paxton answers to his billionaire mega donors. We'll see if they let him show up.

[Nicole Wallace]

Mark and Sam, I know a lot of what used to be in politics is broken and altered forever by Donald Trump, but I wonder if that includes the willingness to, to debate your opponent. I mean, this has long been a strategic advantage. And Paxson, you know, to your point, McKinnon wasn't even in the country of the July 4th. Talarico seems to be showing up everywhere. Is that helping him?

[Mark McKinnon]

I think it's helping him a lot. And what's clear, too, about Talarico is I think, you know, particularly the Republicans accuse him of being soft. Well, as you just saw there, he's going to bring a gun to a gunfight. He's ready and he's going to bring the lumber. And by the way, this sex predator case, I think is going to be Paxton's Willie Horton. I mean, this thing is so corrupt and so problematic because, I mean, obviously ask the question, why did he do that? Well, you dig not very deep and you find out that Ken lawyers, you know, connected to Ken Paxton were representing the child predator. So this is going to be devastating once it goes up in the air. And once it does, I don't think it'll ever come down

[Stephanie Ruhle]

well.

[Nicole Wallace]

And we know from watching the Trump administration botch the release of the Epstein material that this is something without. It is a rare issue, Sam, without a partisan bend. I mean, child sex predators are bad as a country. We still agree on that.

[Sam Stein]

I hope so. I genuinely hope so. It feels like that should be the baseline agreement that they're bad. And I'm with Mark. I mean, this is, look, it does. We have the historical knowledge about this. Willie Horn is obviously the template. But this will work. And it does feed into the larger. I mean, that was tall. Rico's point. It's feeding into a larger critique, which is also what we see with the Epstein files as well, which is that if you are protecting moneyed interest people who are your donors, and this is not just with respect to the child sex predator. There's a story about this QB who was playing for Texas Tech or was going to, but had a gambling issue and Paxton went after the, you know, the NCAA for restricting because he got money to do so. If you can feed that larger narrative, it's not just a story about protecting child sex predators. It's a story about being in the pocket of your donors. And I'll just add this on with respect to the debates. You know, it may be Trumpian to avoid the debates and think you have it in the bag, but it does, again, go back to this idea that one candidate is hustling for their votes and the other one is just coasting and taking the votes for granted. I don't think Paxton can afford to skip the debates for that reason.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah. All right, we'll keep watching, which means we get to keep talking to both of you. Mark McKinnon, Sam Stein, thank you for being here today. Quick break for us. We'll be right back. My guest on this week's episode of the Best People podcast is longtime CNN anchor, now independent journalist Jim Acosta. We got to talk about everything from Trump's flagrant, brazen corruption breaking through to the first time in the Trump term that the White House revoked his press pass. You won't want to miss his stories. And luckily that entire episode is out. Now just scan the QR code to listen or you can download the Best People wherever you get your podcasts. As always, let me know what you think on Instagram or Bluesky. One more break. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes tonight. We are grateful.

[Carl's Jr. Advertisement Voice]

Yeah, Maxing is so maxing right now, bro. Get ready for spicy chicken maxing because Carl's Jr. Is saving you big with a 5.99 maxed out double stack double stack double stack spicy chicken sandwich. Seriously, just 5.99 double stack spicy chicken. This is unreal value in the bromosphere. The new spicy Chicken Max Wallet Friendly Max Tasty only at Carl's Jr available for a limited time at participating restaurants, tactile included. Not valid for use within a combo or a combination with any other offered discount.