← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
"Could cause the collapse of the case altogether"
00:42:09
Nicolle Wallace on Lindsay Halligan, the Trump’s handpicked U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia, admitting a potentially huge procedural error in the government's case against former FBI Director James Comey.
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- [00:00]
Nicole Wallace
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- [01:05]
Angela Carrazone
You couldn't find a high school stock.
- [01:07]
Carol Lennig
Boy at Home Depot who could have handled this more ineptly than Lindsey Halligan did.
- [01:12]
Angela Carrazone
You know, taking out indictment that the grand jury never saw, having the foreman sign it and then presenting it to a judge, that's the height of ineptitude and misconduct. This is an indictment, though, that doesn't really have to be dismissed. It doesn't really exist. It was never properly returned. So I think this is, I think what we heard today, shocking, never, never occurred before in American jurisprudence. I think it will be dispositive.
- [01:43]
Nicole Wallace
Wow. Hi again Everybody. It's now five o'clock in New York. What started as a hearing in court this morning over whether the Justice Department's targeting a former director of the FBI, Jim Comey is indeed a vindictive. Prosecution ended with the government, the Trump administration admitting a potentially huge error, a procedural error that could bring about the entire collapse of this case Donald Trump has longed for for nearly a decade. Donald Trump's handpicked U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia, Lindsey Halligan, who has no prosecutorial experience, at least she didn't prior to bringing charges or trying to bring charges against the former FBI director, admitted that the grand jury jurors, the full grand jury, never saw the indictment that was returned against Jim Comey. The government revealed that Halligan presented the original three count indictment, but the grand jury rejected one of the counts. Halligan then drafted a new two count indictment, but did not present it to the full grand jury. Only the foreperson and one other grand juror even saw it. And that is the indictment that the judge signed. So the charges that are currently on the court docket were never reviewed by the full grand jury, meaning that the full grand jury didn't indict. Jim Comey didn't sign off on that. It's a revelation so shocking and unheard of in our justice system that according to reporters in the room, the judge himself was stunned in silence. The courtroom was so quiet, according to people in the room, you could hear a pin drop. At the conclusion of the hearing, the judge said he would not rule during the hearing, then and there, claiming that the issues at hand are, quote, too weighty. But we just passed the 5pm deadline he gave the Justice Department to address and try to explain this grand jury bombshell. This is the very kind of grand jury misconduct that a separate judge alluded to on Monday when he found genuine issues of misconduct, writing this quote, the short time span between the moment the prosecutor learned that the grand jury rejected count in the original indictment and the time the prosecutor appeared in court to return the second indictment could not have been sufficient to draft the second indictment, sign the second indictment, present it to the grand jury, provide legal instructions to the grand jury, and give them an opportunity to deliberate and render a decision on the new indictment. If this procedure did not take place, then the court is in uncharted legal territory. That uncharted legal territory is where we begin the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. Senior investigative reporter Carol Lennig is here. She's the author of the new book How Politics and Fear Vanquished America's Justice Department. Also joining us, former acting assistant attorney general for national security at the justice department. Mary McCourt is here and political analyst and host of the Bulwark podcast, Tim Miller is here. Tim Miller, a newsmaker in his own right in this news cycle, which we'll get to later in the hour, Mary McCord, talk to me like I'm not a lawyer and explain to me why this is so catastrophic in terms of the case that the Trump Justice Department tried to bring, wanted to bring, desperately wants to bring against Jim Comey.
- [04:54]
Mary McCord
Well, I will start by saying I don't know that this is as catastrophic as it might be. And I think there are facts that remain to be found. I mean, if it is the case that all of the grand jurors agreed on counts two and three, but not count one, and the only thing that Ms. Halligan or somebody in her office did, was then create a new indictment with the verbatim counts two and three as count one and two if the four person is able to testify, all 12 grand jurors agreed to those two counts. And if after maybe taking some evidence, which is what I would do if I were the judge assured himself that all 12 grand jurors agreed to those two counts exactly as they were written and presented to the grand jury of the first time, it could be that this is the kind of an irregularity that would not necessarily result in dismissal, or if it did, that by operation of a separate statute, the government could re bring in the future. And that separate statute actually says that when there's a dismissal for reasons that historically have involves irregularities, procedural errors in the grand jury, that a government can re bring a case within six months to the grand jury even if the statute of limitations has expired. Now, let me caveat that there's also a real question here about whether there was misconduct in this whole process of, of getting this second indictment. And I think that's why one of the reasons why an evidentiary hearing is going to be clear, because there could be other reasons besides procedural error that the court would say dismissal is warranted. And let's not forget that the court very well may decide to dismiss this case on the grounds that were being argued today originally before this sort of bombshell occurred, which is whether this prosecution is a violation of Mr. Comey's due process rights because it was a vindictive prosecution in violation of his First Amendment rights, and just because it was based on actual animus by the government, in this case, the President of the United States as well as the prosecutor. That's a serious, serious motion. And as you also indicated, there's the potential that the misconduct identified by the magistrate judge when he heard this case last week, on the question about the making grand jury transcripts available to Mr. Comey's defense counsel, he found, like as you indicated, some significant evidence of misconduct, including Ms. Halligan giving instructions to the grand jury. That would suggest that it was Mr. Comey's burden at trial to explain himself and would, and which suggested that the government have new and better evidence at trial. And those are things that Ms. Hallikin can't do. So I would say there are right now a plethora of reasons that this indictment might be dismissed, but it may not be because of this procedural error. We just have to see.
- [07:53]
Nicole Wallace
Okay, let me come back to the procedural error and just help me square your very Measured reaction to what sounded like the magistrate judge and the judge today being absolutely dismayed by what was transpiring in their courtrooms.
- [08:09]
Mary McCord
So I think, I mean, and I'm dismayed by it too because this, literally every single bit of this case from the very beginning has shown why you don't put a person in the grand jury on their third or fourth day of the job with no training, no experience, no knowledge of what you're supposed to do in front of a grand jury, no knowledge of what you're supposed to instruct them to do, and no knowledge about how to actually if the grand jury has refused one count of your three counts, what you need to do to take that full indictment back to the grand jury or not the full indictment, the indictment without that count back to the grand jury. That's why this is, you know, been such a debacle really from the beginning. She had no business being in front of that grand jury. But when you parse a part and you look back at what was filed by the grand jury, they filed in court a notice of non concurrence on and, and they. And the four person at least alleged to be the four person. This is why I would evidence wrote in there that the grand jury had only failed to concur. In other words, failed to have more than 12 votes of grand jurors for count one only. She wrote in count one only and it was a three count indictment. And that three count indictment was then attached as part of this notice to the court of the grand juror's failure to concur in all three counts. So when I looked at that today and then I saw what happened with then the two counts being retyped on a new indictment and the four person who apparently at least based on the representations today and again I would take evidence on this if I were the judge, but based on the representations in court, the four person then signed that because the four person had been present when the, the original vote was taken. That's why I think, I mean you can say, and I heard, I heard, you know, the opening that there's no valid indictment. I do think that second indictment was not valid. But the first one very well may be the one that the grand jurors returned. Except for count one. I've never had this experience because I never had a grand jury, no bill any count on any indictment that I asked them to return. So I haven't had to go through this before.
- [10:21]
Nicole Wallace
Let me read. I think I understand all that. I think I did say though for a non lawyer. So I do feel like I'm going to have to go back to law school to understand some of your answer. But Carol, let me read you Politico's reporting under the headline, quote, comey case hanging by a thread as judge squeezes DOJ over Halligan's handling, quote. The judge pressed prosecutors about whether career officials had initially recommended against prosecuting Comey, only to be told by Tyler Lemons that the answer could be privileged. Lemons, one of the lead prosecutors in Comey's case, said the existence of a so called declination memo which could outline weaknesses in the case, might be considered internal work product material not subject to disclosure. Judge Nachmanoff demanded to know who was preventing Lemons from discussing the possible existence of such a memo. Lemons said his position followed discussions with Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche's office. Didn't you, Carol, report on a declination memo written by Eric Siebert and his deputy before he was forced out of the Eastern District of Virginia?
- [11:29]
Nicole Belle
We did. My colleague Kendallanian and I wrote about a declination memo. We didn't know who authored it. We knew that it came from the office. And a conclusion that there was not a justifiable reason to bring these charges. It was not either in the Department of Justice's interest, nor were the facts sufficient, which is becoming a fairly frequent finding by career prosecutors when Donald Trump orders up charges. I'd like to try, try to take a non lawyer swing at Mary's amazing summary of and very careful, I'd say, rigorous summary of why this finding may not be the death knell. What I heard from sources who were in the room was that the enormous pall that fell over the courtroom was the collapse essentially of the assumption that the prosecutors had done anything appropriate. And a collapse and an eerie bad feeling, you know, that spidey sense feeling of like everything about this case may indeed have been handled completely erroneously. And here's another example. Procedurally it may be fixable, it may not be fatal. But remember the litany of things we have going here. The litany includes there was a finding by career prosecutors this shouldn't, this case should never be brought. A US Attorney was forced to resign when Donald Trump said he was going to fire him. A woman who works as an insurance lawyer and has never been a prosecutor was installed by Donald Trump to ramrod this case through before the statute of limitations potentially lapsed and on her third day of work went into a grand jury with no knowledge of how to present. And now the judge judges hearing that actually the full grand, full grand jury didn't hear and didn't actually accept the new presentation. And a magistrate judge has found that the jury grand jury instructions were flawed. The two prosecutors in the office, Nicole, who are coming forward to bring this case, Lemons and Diaz, neither of them are in the U.S. attorney's office in the Eastern District of Virginia. All of the career prosecutors there said I will never bring this case either out loud or implied. They all refused. And these two had to be recruited from North Carolina, some say conscripted. And next up on the on the docket is Todd Blanch doesn't want those prosecutors to tell anybody and confirm to the court that there was a declination memo. It's hard to imagine a world in which the presumption of regularity, which means I the court assume prosecutors did things appropriate. It's hard to imagine a world in which the presumption is more Swiss cheesy after what happened today in court.
- [14:39]
Nicole Wallace
Tim Miller, Let me take a non lawyer cable host's swing at this. The Keystone Cops would be pissed if you compared this group to the Keystone Cops. I am told Lindsey Halligan was chomping on gum in court today. I am told that the judge's silence might have been to sort of the best case scenario for the government in there, that there was nothing to say. And you know, not for nothing, if this was someone that the government thought had carried out horrible violent crimes, they would jeopardizing their own ability to put a violent criminal away because of their misconduct. So we can sort of trivialize the severity of the procedural mistakes that were made. But if this were a prosecution of someone really, really bad, which the vast majority, I mean, the reason Mary never got no true bail, which means no indictment, is because what the government is supposed to do is prosecute people who are really, really bad. Jim Comey's innocence can be testified to by Eric Siebert, who is the sort of a Republican in very good standing who ran that office and was run out or resigned because he refused to bring a case against Jim Comey. So the whole thing is a debacle and an embarrassment on the Trump side. Legally, you've got the Comey team looking at five different ways to make this go away. But we should stare at the sun of what this is. And it is a stain on the rule of law in America seen the world over.
- [16:21]
Tim Miller
Yeah, you and I are aligned on this, Nicole. I'm just a simple country podcaster, so I can't get into the Details that Mary and Carol, with their expertise can on this. But I look at all this and it's just. It's blatantly incompetent. Right. And so I don't know how much more time is necessary to spend on that. To me, it's like the incompetence almost papers over the perniciousness of this. Right. I mean, I don't know why this struck me in particular, but I was looking at this selfie that Mark Benioff, the CEO of Salesforce, took with Pam Bondi at the state dinner with MBS last night. I was just looking at that and I was like, that just picture. In contrast with this story, to me, I just found extremely gross. Because I think that there's something to the fact that we all kind of know that this is a preposterous case and that Jim Comey's not a real criminal and that they're doing this for show. And so the stakes feel a little bit low for people at some level, but. And to me, it's like, look, this is the government of the United States. That's the Attorney General in that selfie with a tech CEO who is ordering an investigation against a political foe that's purely political. It's based on nothing. It's just based on pure politics because her boss told her to do so. Like, it's a banana republic. And she assigned a Florida insurance lawyer to do it because none of the professionals would actually do it. And then that lawyer botches it so badly that the judge is gobsmacked. Like, to me, that series of facts would make, you know, would want to make anybody in polite society want to say, I don't want to be seen with Pam Bondi. Like, what she is doing is a frontal assault on the rule of law. She's doing it in an extremely incompetent manner. So maybe the risk is a little bit lower than if there was an attorney general who is really good at assaulting the rule of law and going after their political foes. But, I mean, it is. It's really outrageous. You know, when you look at it from kind of that 30,000 foot perspective.
- [18:25]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah. I mean, Carol, do you think that Lemons, the prosecutor brought him from North Carolina to assist Lindsey Halligan, who was chewing gum in court today, according to a witness saying that his position saying to the judge today in open court that his position in refusing to show the judge the memo that outlines why career prosecutors in that office refused to indict Comey. I mean, what is the next step for the judge. Can the judge ask to speak to the Attorney General of the United States? I mean, how does that standoff resolve itself between a judge and the Deputy Attorney General of the United States?
- [19:04]
Nicole Belle
Well, there's the recourse that a lot of judges have been trying since Donald Trump took over the reins of the Justice Department. I don't think Pam Bondi has the reins. I think Donald Trump has the reins of most of the days. There is the recourse of a contempt proceeding if you don't turn over the answer. That hasn't been that successful thus far because of all the appellate motions that have gone zinging back and forth. But I, I'm with Mary on a evidentiary hearing to bring people in. That may be painful. There were people in the room who told me that today was pretty painful to watch. They said that they saw the number of reasons to dismiss this case growing by the minute as each of the representation representatives of the government kept talking. Lindsey Halligan didn't talk for very long, but when she did, she spoke with kind of a Pam Bondi like disdain for the judge in responding something along the lines of, you know, you're wrong, and then answered a question with a kind of a snarky okay, which is not the way the government usually responds. I have one last thing to say about this, Nicole, and it's not responsive to your question. I apologize. But, you know, usually the government is the Goliath and the defendant is the David. And in this setting, so many people said to me, it's reverse. You've got Michael Dreeben, who's presented more than 100. I think he's up to 104 cases now that he's presented at the Supreme Court, at the bar and against Lindsey Halligan and two recruited AUSAs. Lindsey Halligan, having been a prosecutor for a very, very short period of time, probably would still be in the honors program and not yet practicing law for the government if things were in a normal state. So this is really, everything is kind of topsy turvy at the moment.
- [21:09]
Nicole Wallace
It's a remarkable additional way, I think, for us to understand that we as American citizens do not have the best. I mean, that was Trump's motto. He's going to bring the best people. I think, just factually and objectively, what you just articulated is that the best people are now outside of the government, as evidenced by having you here. Mary McCord as well, caroling Mary McCord, thank you for making sense of this for us. Tim's going to stick around when we come back. House Republicans today referred a top aide to former special counsel Jack Smith to the Justice Department for prosecution. It is yet another example of Donald Trump and his allies punishing the people who investigated him, tried to hold him accountable for his conduct. California Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell, himself a target for prosecution of Trump's doj, will be our next guest. Also ahead, it is early, but we may be starting to witness something we haven't seen much of in 10 years, the beginning of the Trump political implosion. The signs are everywhere for the gop. The alarm bells are sounding loudly. Had that conversation later in the hour. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
- [22:19]
Carol Lennig
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- [22:49]
Tim Miller
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So that means a half day.
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Yeah.
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- [23:51]
Nicole Wallace
Republicans and Donald Trump are continuing with their retribution campaign. A new DOJ criminal referral has come in for a top prosecutor on special counsel Jack Smith's team. The Republican House Judiciary Chair Jim Jordan has accused Thomas Windom, who was fired by DOJ after Trump took office for obstruction of justice, for declining to answer some questions when interviewed by congressional investigators this year. It is the latest example of Republicans targeting Jack Smith and his teams for their investigations into Donald Trump and those who have worked to hold Trump accountable for his conduct. That list includes our next guest, Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell, now the fourth to receive politically charged mortgage fraud allegations and criminal referrals to the DOJ allegations he denies. Congressman Swala joins us right now. Thank you for being here. I think you're on mute.
- [24:48]
Tim Miller
My pleasure.
- [24:49]
Eric Swalwell
Thanks for having me back.
- [24:51]
Tim Miller
First time I've ever screwed down.
- [24:55]
Nicole Wallace
We only want you here when we can hear everything you have to say. First, let's deal with where I imagine your focus is more than the your own referral. What can you do? What can Democrats keep doing? I guess because the vote over the Epstein file shows that there are bipartisan coalitions to be forged, especially as the Trump's political weakness is a dynamic thing going in one direction. What can you do to try to protect career officials at DOJ from Trump's vindictive prosecutions and retributions?
- [25:32]
Eric Swalwell
Play offense. It's always the side of the ball that I prefer to be on, and it's where Donald Trump is at his weakest. And by the way, like we see in California, we have a governor who knows how to play offense. He is a show not tell kind of guy. He's taken Donald Trump to court and has won as it relates to the National Guard. When Texas took away five seats from Democrats in their rig districting, we went to the voters and we got five seats back in California. And so to the extent that you can take these guys to court and hold them accountable, that can buy us time between now and next November. But then, two, we have to project, and this is really for Leader Jeffries, who will be Speaker. Jeffries, we have to project what a majority looks like. Because these guys right now, Nicole, they feel like they're invincible. They don't see themselves ever being out of power. They figure they either can rig the next election by making it hard to vote or that if they lose the next election, Democrats won't be up for holding them accountable. So we need to make it absolutely clear accountability is coming, subpoenas are going to be issued, you're going to be sitting in the Judiciary Committee answering questions. And I hope, I hope that every deal you've done, everything that you've done is clean. Because if not you're going to be held to account for it. And that may deter some bad actors in the in the meanwhile. But more than anything, it'll show the American people we're serious about accountability.
- [26:59]
Nicole Wallace
To that point, Congressman Garcia was on at the top of the last hour and spoke directly to career officials inside the FBI in a similar way that you are basically saying adhere to the rule of law, don't destroy any evidence, but basically speaking directly to people about this dynamic, that this moment will end, that there will be a change in power, there will be new people in all the branches of government, and there will be accountability for the things they're doing. Do you have any evidence that Trump and Bondi and Patel are asking their subordinates to break the law inside these agencies?
- [27:41]
Eric Swalwell
Well, we know from multiple DOJ lawyers who have left that, you know, they were instructed by Emile Beauvais, who was very senior at the Department of Justice, to lie to the court. And I can tell you, Nicole, that that privately DOJ lawyers, like current DOJ lawyers have told me, challenge us in court, do not give us like to tell organizations who are suing the Trump administration to not grant any continuance or delay because they have been told from the top to just seek continuances and delays because they are so short staffed and so overwhelmed and that the reasons that they are giving are not truthful ones. So stay on offense is the message that I've received. Again, biased. Time to get into the majority. And good news today, Nicole. The largest lead in a generic poll was released today that Democrats have a 14 point lead over Republicans, which suggests a big, big midterm wave is coming.
- [28:47]
Nicole Wallace
Speaking of politics, Politico is reporting on you that a, quote, run for governor is imminent. Let me read this to you. Quote, eric Swalwell's gubernatorial campaign appears imminent. Swalwell is slated to appear Thursday on Jimmy Kimmel Live, spurring speculation that he will announce his campaign then and there. Is there anything you want to share with us or our viewers?
- [29:07]
Eric Swalwell
No news here. I've been in the news enough with the Trump team going after me this week. But California, Nicole, as you know more than anyone, is the greatest country in the world. We're the fourth largest economy in the world. It should just actually mean something to everyone. When you say it's the fourth largest economy, you should have a stake in it, too. And the next governor, as Newsom has shown, has to be a fighter and protector. And so, of course, I'm considering it. I know a decision needs to be made soon. And expect to make that soon.
- [29:41]
Nicole Wallace
Congressman Eric Slavel, we'll keep our eyes on you for new news. Thank you for joining us today.
- [29:47]
Eric Swalwell
My pleasure. Thanks, Nicole.
- [29:49]
Nicole Wallace
When we come back, the mounting warning signs that Trump is a bigger lame duck than he's been before. We'll show you the data and the facts behind that assessment next.
- [30:04]
Carol Lennig
I like things my way, my coffee, my schedule and my treatment. So I talked to my doctor about self injecting with the Vivgard Hytrulo pre filled syringe which contains fgartigamide alpha and hyaluronidase qvfc. It's injected under your skin subcutaneously. It means I can inject in my space on my time. It's my treatment, my way. Visit vivgardmyway.com that's V Y V G-A-R-T myway.com and talk to your doctor about Vivgard Hytrulo brought to you by Argenics.
- [30:34]
Tim Miller
Hey, Ryan Reynolds here wishing you a very happy half off holiday because right now Mint Mobile is offering you the gift of 50% off unlimited. To be clear, that's half price, not half the service. Mint is still premium unlimited wireless for a great price. So that means a half day.
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Mary McCord
Yeah.
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Tim Miller
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Mary McCord
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Nicole Wallace
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Eric Swalwell
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Carol Lennig
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Angela Carrazone
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Nicole Wallace
Head over to get started.TikTok.com tiktokads given everything we've covered today, ask yourself when actually not wishful thinking, but when was Donald Trump actually this week this diminished politically and otherwise? Don't answer. We'll look at the polling. Congressman Swalwell just alluded to it though the latest from the Marist poll illustrates a rather stark picture on the generic ballot. Right now, registered voters prefer a Democrat over a Republican by a whopping 14 points. It is the highest advantage Democrats have had since the year 2017. One year ago, the same poll had these numbers tied, literally the same number in the generic ballot. Part of this has to do with what's going on inside of the MAGA movement itself. Tim Dillon, he's a voice inside the manosphere who is adjacent to the MAGA coalition. They helped Trump reach young men during the election. He said this as part of a conversation about H1B visas.
- [32:36]
Tim Miller
This is the end of the Trump administration.
- [32:39]
Eric Swalwell
This is the beginning of the lame duck presidency. It's obvious to everyone, even his most ardent, ardent supporters show up to the.
- [32:46]
Tim Miller
White House like Laura Ingram, and she's.
- [32:48]
Eric Swalwell
Kind of shocked, going, what the hell's going on?
- [32:50]
Nicole Wallace
Now we'll start, you know, three years.
- [32:53]
Tim Miller
Of talking about the ballroom.
- [32:57]
Eric Swalwell
He will trail off, he will get older.
- [32:59]
Angela Carrazone
He's going to, he's, he's adorned the.
- [33:02]
Eric Swalwell
White House in gold. Epstein's going to suck the oxygen out.
- [33:06]
Angela Carrazone
Of a lot of this. We're going to talk about that a.
- [33:08]
Tim Miller
Little later on.
- [33:11]
Nicole Wallace
Pretty much. On Trump's political standing, Paul Krugman writes this quote, power is unitary. Trump seems to be collapsing on multiple fronts, with the collapse on each front reinforcing the collapse on others. The Epstein affair is coming to a head even as the public loses all faith in his economic policy and the whole structure of fear on which his regime rests appears to be evaporating. He also seems to be unraveling. Personally, I don't know how this ends, but all of a sudden a rapid implosion looks. I don't know what that looks like, but the US political universe looks very different than it did a few weeks ago. I want to bring in Media Matters President Angelo Carazone, who I trust to tell me to pump the brakes if he thinks any of this is overwrought. And Tim Miller, who always tells me the truth. But let me tell you what I think. I think Trump still has his two white fisted hands on the steering wheel, and that in and of itself is scary. And I think he'll keep driving toward autocrats, you know, paradise. And that alone is scary. And I think he'll keep finding Lindsay Halligan's to go before grand juries and do things that totally annihilate the rule of law, as Tim and I were just discussing. And that is scary and that is dangerous. But I do think that the curtain has been ripped up and it can't be pinned back on and it can't be stitched over and behind the curtain. The wizard of Oz is buck ass naked, and I don't think Anyone can unsee this. Angela, though.
- [34:36]
Angela Carrazone
I think that's right. I'm glad you sort of started with that, you know, sort of his white knuckle approach, because that's, that's real. And, but at the same time, and this is where it's a little, it can be a little bit disorienting. He is losing a lot of power. His power rests on narrative dominance, and his narrative dominance is basically that he connects all these disconnected parts of the right wing and right wing adjacent into an echo chamber so that they will reverberate or backfill. The things that he needs backfilled carry all the water for him. So things that are clearly, patently absurd, they'll say is funny and quirky. Whereas now, instead of saying they're funny and quirky, like Tim Dillon alluded to, they'll portray it as sort of old and bumbling and disconnected. And that is the sort of the current state of the moment. A few things to consider. And, you know, we could talk about how much it's unraveling and all the cracks, because they're certainly there. But, you know, he hasn't tried yet to get these people back, really. And I think that's, to me, evidence of why I think it's going to get worse because he is that disconnected that he doesn't even realize that this problem is happening, that things are unraveling because he, he is, he's not engaging with these audiences anymore. He really is truly so separated out that I don't even think yet he realizes he has a problem. Because if you go back in time, every time there was a moment within the sort of the right wing media space, for all of the time that Trump has been a big public figure in politics, he's always immediately calibrated, jumped in, engaged, give them a wink and a nod, sort of engaged with that community, pulled him back into the fold, kept that coalition together. He knew there was a problem and he was sensitive to it and acted accordingly. He's not doing that right now, and that's why you can assume, I assume it's only going to get worse.
- [36:13]
Nicole Wallace
Tim, his problems too are, as Krugman writes, they all exacerbate the other right. He has no credibility because he promised to release the Epstein files and then he had his government go through the Epstein files. So we know they're a pile of things or a data file of things. We know that they went through them, so we know they exist. So whatever he says next, whether he says, I can't show them to You. Because I'm looking for Democrats in them. We know he went through them already. He already knows the answer to the question he's asked Pam Bondi to go investigate on the economy. He hurt the economy. And it just seems like whatever he tries to do, the thing he can't get back is his credibility.
- [36:55]
Tim Miller
Yeah. Look, just one way to look at this is like, think about the types of people that we're talking about, people that voted for Trump but aren't. You know, the people in the red hats at the rallies. Right. And up until about three weeks ago or a month ago, they were like, they weren't getting the core thing they wanted, which was a better economy and things to be cheaper.
- [37:11]
Angela Carrazone
Right.
- [37:11]
Tim Miller
But Trump was doing some stuff that they liked. Right. And so you could, you know, whether it would be, you know, we didn't, I did not support National Guard in the streets. But if you're somebody who's concerned about law and order in the cities, that was a big issue for you. Like, okay, Trump is caring about that. He's trying to clean up the cities. If you care about the border, Trump is doing that. And then like October comes around and you're thinking, everything is as expensive as it was before. It's more expensive in a lot of ways. We're coming up in this first round of elections, this first inflection point. And what is Trump doing? Trump is turning the White House gold and he's bulldozing part of the White House and he is gallivanting around having Great Gatsby parties and he's having foreign dictators over for the fancy ball last night with MBS at the White House. And if you're one of these people and you're looking and all of a sudden you're saying, what is he doing? He's not doing anything to help me. And that's what Tim Dillon was basically getting at in that and by the. On all these other non economic issues that you cared about, one of them was the Epstein files. And Trump is doing the opposite of what you wanted on that. And it's starting to seem like that he's complicit in it. And so to me, like, the interesting thing was one of his bleeds he sent out earlier this week on Truth Social, he was sounding like a losing political consultant. You know, he's like, fine, we'll let the Epstein files get passed because we want to pivot back to affordability. He's like, now it's like Trump is the one that's like, we need to talk about kitchen table issues. And it's like, well, the kitchen table issues aren't getting better for people. You don't have a plan. You've made them worse. And the people for whom that really matters, they're looking at you and saying, you're completely disconnected from my concerns. I do think that's hard to get back on track. Maybe other things will happen that will give them a chance to get back in their good graces. But, like, right now, it's a tough road for him.
- [39:02]
Nicole Wallace
I think the bigger problem is someone told him what that. Well, I don't even know if they told him what it means. What does kitchen table mean to a man who has gilded the Oval Office in gold and knocked down the east swing of the White House to replace it with a ballroom? Like anything. Like, that's fine. We're going to pivot back to kitchen table. No one thinks he knows what the kitchen table is for. No one understands that most people's kitchen table doubles as the place where they wipe away the dishes to one side and sit down with the stack of bills and tries to pay them. No one will ever believe that he knows what that feels like. And not that they ever did, but they used to think he was going to make those problems better. And now I think that he's surrounded himself with autocrats and gold and ballrooms. I don't know how he reengages that conversation with credibility. I want to hear what you guys think about that. I want to show everyone. I don't know. Are we seeing this first? Tim, your incredible interview with Kamala Harris. We have to sneak in a break. We'll do all that on the other side.
- [40:06]
Mary McCord
Here's how I feel about the Epstein files. I think it is again, just another.
- [40:11]
Nicole Wallace
The current president. President's statements most recently about this are another example of him attempting to gaslight the American people. And I say that because all of a sudden he is saying he'll wait to see what Congress does. Since when? All of a sudden, now he's waiting.
- [40:32]
Mary McCord
For Congress to greenlight what he will.
- [40:34]
Nicole Wallace
Do or wants to do. Come on. So release the files.
- [40:43]
Mary McCord
Release the files.
- [40:45]
Nicole Wallace
He is the President of the United States. He is the head of the executive branch. He has taken unilateral action without concern about the three CO/ of government on.
- [40:58]
Mary McCord
Almost everything he has done. So release the files.
- [41:04]
Nicole Wallace
Tim, what I've seen is great. It's published since I've been on the air, so I haven't watched the whole thing. But this is not just the former Vice president saying it. This is what the American people believe on this. He has the power to do it.
- [41:20]
Tim Miller
Yeah, for sure. And the people in the room were very excited. We were in Nashville for that and it was really cool to be with her. Here's the main thing I took away from her message on the Epstein files on a number of different topics we talked about. She is adamant that this is still our country and we should still be fighting for it. And to me from her, given just how painful it was. We've all read the book and heard from her and just know intuitively how painful it must have been to be back out there on the road and have that positive, uplifting message and attitude I think is meaningful. You know, she could have disappeared into the bushes and I don't think anybody would have blamed her. And so it was cool to see her out there doing that. I mean, we covered a bunch of other stuff too, but I think we did a little bit of going back into the community campaign. But the overarching kind of attitude of positivity and forward looking and belief that this can be defeated was something that was pretty striking to me.
- [42:20]
Nicole Wallace
Angela, I think it's important that she's out there. And to Tim's point, to see her out there fighting to see the Jimmy Kimmel thing go the way it went, that when the public saw that happen, it all played out on live television. Right. Carr Threat makes a threat. ABC capitulates, A public loses their minds. Kimmel's back to see the country in overwhelming numbers and margins, elect Democrats from New Jersey to Virginia to the idea that the Democratic governor of California championed in California, and then to see this vote on the Epstein files, there is something happening. Yeah.
- [43:00]
Angela Carrazone
And I think this is a good reminder of why folding and anticipating, obeying in advance is bad. Right. Because the whole point is that you're supposed to have a little bit of a stiff spine to drag these things out so that the types of catalyzing events that you point to can occur and those opportunities to sort of slow down, put some speed bumps in authoritarianism, even turn over, the tides matter. And so, you know, when you have the former vice president out there speaking, it's not just her, she's serving as an example to others, maybe some competitors for future campaigns, but maybe other public figures that say, okay, it's time, you know, where we should all start to do more. And that's how it starts, one by one. So those catalyzing events are significant because they're big turning points. And then in between you get more and more action and engagement. And that's how you get to a moment where the Federalists, which is a far right publication, said the same thing about Donald Trump that you said in your opening earlier, which is that he's weak and rudderless. I would have never thought that they would have said that a month ago.
- [43:55]
Mary McCord
And yet that is their theme this week.
- [43:57]
Angela Carrazone
So incompatible with the brand and so incompatible with who they are, but yet that is the reality that they can no longer ignore.
- [44:04]
Nicole Wallace
And I mean, I guess the hope has to be that when we're all saying the same thing, the truth is the truth again, because I think what has been so perilous for the country and for democracy, I mean, Tim and I were Republicans at one point, is that there was Kellyanne Conway's alternative reality that was this Earth, too, in which politics is still played, but that it's losing its grip is a really good thing. And I do trust both of you to tell me if you think I'm over reading these moments. So thank you both for being here. I'll tell you, Angela and Tim, Tim, congrats on the interview. It's fantastic. One more break for us. We'll be right back. You only have to talk to her for 60 seconds to understand exactly why historian Heather Cox Richardson is America's rock star and the most read person on Substack. She is literally the best at imparting wisdom and truth that only a historian can on today's politics, grounding us in this particular bizarre moment we find ourselves in. She's my guest on this week's episode of the Best People. Here's a little bit of it. It's what she told me about the choice we Americans face right now.
- [45:19]
Mary McCord
Listen, there's two ways we could go. We could, in fact, embrace fascism fully, which is absolutely the direction that this, this government is going. Or we could do what Americans before us have done and say, hell, no, we don't agree with each other about finance. We don't agree each other about immigration. We don't agree with each other about foreign affairs. But by God, we can agree. We don't want to be ruled by a handful of rich men who think.
- [45:46]
Nicole Belle
They'Re better than the rest of us.
- [45:49]
Nicole Wallace
You can watch the entire conversation right now on YouTube by scanning the QR code on your screen, or you can listen to the podcast by downloading it. Wherever you get your podcast, as always, let me know what you think on Instagram, Instagram or bluesky. One more break. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes. We are grateful.
- [46:11]
Carol Lennig
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