← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
“Despotic desires shine through”
00:42:45
Nicolle Wallace on Democrats efforts to fight back at burgeoning censorship coming from the Trump administration.
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Deadline White House is brought to you by Progressive, where drivers who save by switching save nearly $750 on average. Plus auto customers qualify for an average of 7 discounts. Quote now@progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates national average 12 month savings of $744 by new customers surveyed who save with Progressive between June 2022 and May 2023. Potential savings will vary. Discounts not available in all states and situations. Trump is making it 100% clear that he is going to ramp up his efforts to use the power of the federal government to harass and punish his critics. Not because they're supporters of political violence, they are not. But because they have the audacity to openly oppose his policies. This is a standard format for every budding despot.
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C
Hi again everyone. It's now five o'clock in New York. A standard format for every budding despot. Remarkable words being used today to describe the leader of the United States of America, a nation founded on the notion that this is a country ruled not by a king or a monarch, but or an autocrat, but by us, by the people. With every twist and turn of Trump 2.0 so far we have seen his autocratic instincts shine through, weaponizing federal agencies, threatening people and politicians he does not like, aiding his rich friends and allies and silencing his critics, with Jimmy Kimmel being the latest last night. But an autocrat only succeeds if the people around him, the other people in our country, succumb to his power grabs, either as a response or in advance. And unfortunately, we're seeing a heck of a lot of that all across industries as companies and universities and law firms bow to his wishes over and over and over and over again, despite the handful of folks who are fighting, batting a thousand in court. Contrast that with the American public taking to the streets, calling out these clearly anti Democratic overreaches. And Democrats in Congress, despite being in the minority, fighting to hold the Trump administration accountable with every tool they possess. Senator Chris Murphy there was announcing a brand new bill today. It's called the no Political Enemies Act. It aims to protect individuals and organizations from being targeted and prosecuted by the federal government. Here's a little bit more of what he had to say.
- [03:01]
E
I wish this legislation weren't necessary, but it is now. Donald Trump right now is instructing his Department of Justice to go on the hunt for his political enemies. Attorney General Bondi has made it clear she is going to arrest people just for speech that she doesn't or the president doesn't agree with. That is bone chilling.
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C
The top ranking Democrat on House Oversight was on this network earlier today speaking about his committee's next moves.
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E
We're going to be launching and we're in investigation around not just ABC and Sinclair and what happened, but we have a lot of questions. Who ordered this and who ordered Sinclair to take these actions? Was your communication from the Trump administration to Sinclair and or abc? And this is again a pattern of what's been happening. And we saw what happened to Stephen Colbert. We're seeing what's happening to academic institutions, to elected officials. People in this country have a right to share opinions and of course also to be able to denounce political violence.
- [04:09]
C
Democrats getting on offense in the fight for free speech in America is where we begin the hour with Nevada Senator Jackie Rosen. Nevada native Jimmy Kimmel is a personal friend campaign for her in the past. Also joining us, Colorado Congressman Jason Crow, one of the co sponsors of this legislation called the no Political Enemies Act. First, Senator, I start with you. Have you heard from Jimmy Kimmel? Do you have any thoughts about how he's doing?
- [04:37]
D
Well, I have spoken with Jimmy and Molly and of course they're really distressed. They're worried about the people who work for them that suddenly don't get to come to work. They're worried about their ability to do their job and to really give that kind of commentary. But what I want to say is this. It's not about Jimmy Kimmel. It's not about Stephen Colbert. It's about every single one of us because the founding fathers gave us this beautiful First Amendment that said we have the freedom of speech, the public forum. And so we have the right to agree and to disagree and to say what we want. And that's the secret sauce of democracy. And this is what Donald Trump is doing. He is sending us down the path to authoritarianism. You think about Russia, China, North Korea, you say something the Dear Leader doesn't like, poof, you are gone. We can't let that stand here. We have to speak up, speak out in defense. Democrats, Republicans, Independent Everybody alike. In defense of our First Amendment right.
- [05:39]
C
We played in the last hour a whole bunch of members of the MAGA coalition, from prominent Fox anchors like Sean Hannity to Senator Josh Hawley to Vice President J.D. vance to some of the, I was going to say guys and gals, but they were just guys on a barstool podcast all making the same point you did on the First Amendment. Is part of the strategy now to appear in places where you have really profound agreements on the importance of the First Amendment with people like the Fox News anchors and the barstool guys.
- [06:14]
D
I wish they'd come with us because I can tell you, not a peep out of Elon Musk. JD Vance sending a letter to Chairman Cruz, Ted Cruz, a big proponent of free speech. We need to get Brendan Carr, the commissioner of the FCC into the Commerce Committee, which I'm proud to sit on and ask him about his quote. We told people you could do it the hard way, the easy way. What does he think? He's in the Sopranos. This is not the Goodfellas movie. He's chairman of the fcc. We don't talk like that. That's not his job. We need to get to the bottom of that. And so I'm glad to have them come on and defend free speech all they want. But where are they now? They don't want to get the ire of the president.
- [06:57]
C
Would you go on any of their programs?
- [06:59]
D
I'd be glad if they'd invite me to talk about it and I'd be glad to have them kind of look at both sides because we know there's anchors on Fox News who said that we should maybe involuntarily use lethal injection on homeless people. That went without a peep. It was apology. He spoke out of turn. I accept his apology. But where are they on that one? And so you can't have it both ways. Their motto is I can do what I want and you should do what I want. That's not democracy.
- [07:29]
C
Congressman, we've had a lot of conversations over the years about the things that aren't just differences in policies, different directions to take the country in a political policy arena, but things that are clearly anti Democratic. And I wonder if you think that this is a moment to really hit pause and communicate directly and intently with the American people.
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E
We are absolutely at that moment right now. Nicole, I went to war three times for this country to defend the nation, defend our Constitution and defend the right of people to say things that I disagree with. Right. Because our country was founded on Dissent. Our country was founded and came to be because of our right and our obligation to question authority. And what Donald Trump and his cronies are trying to do is silence dissent. And by the way, nobody is safe because it's not based on ideology. It's not based on conservative principles. Because even right wing media outlets, even conservative thought leaders, even Republican politicians have come under attack in brutal assault by this president and his cronies in the past simply for questioning authority and dissent. Right? So the issue is not thoughts or ideas. It's simply him trying to consolidate power. So every American, Republican, Democrat, unaffiliated, must stand up and say, enough is enough. We all lose if we lose the ability to question authority, because power is cyclical in America. At some point, people will be in the minority again. The reason we protect it all the time is because when you're in the minority and you don't have power, you need the ability to question authority, too.
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C
Congressman, I want to read you something that Gavin Newsom, Governor of California, frequent target of Donald Trump's attacks, tweeted today. Quote, buying and controlling media platforms, firing commentators, canceling shows. These aren't coincidences. It's coordinated and it's dangerous. The GOP does not believe in free speech. They are censoring you in real time. He seems to be trying to urge people to wake up. I'm struck by the fact that the protests in the UK look larger than anything I've seen in our country over the last nine months. Are you hearing from constituents in a different way today?
- [10:03]
E
Well, you know, this is not just a story about a presidential power grab, because that was envisioned in the Constitution. Our Constitution was actually designed to prevent a presidential power grab. There is power everywhere around America. There's power here in the Capitol. There's power in businesses and universities and law firms on the streets of America. People have it. It hasn't been taken away, and we haven't lost it yet. But the most powerful and the elite in our country are failing us. Now, you mentioned earlier our law firms, our universities, our big businesses, our media conglomerates who are bowing down and bending the need because of either greed or fear and intimidation. Well, we haven't lost power yet. So it's time for Americans to stand up and be heard that we will not allow this to happen on our watch. We won't use businesses, we won't tune into stations. We're not going to do things that support our slide to authoritarianism and that and those who are enabling that slide. It is time for everybody to Stand up.
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C
ABC is enabling that slide. And what would you say directly to the head of that company, enough is enough.
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E
How much money do you need? Do you, do you need to sell out and sell out our democracy to, to, to gain a little bit more on your bottom line? We need you. You have power and you have influence. Americans need you. And if you're not willing to stand up and to do that yourself, then Americans should be heard that we won't tolerate it.
- [11:36]
C
Congressman, do you support some of what has so far been a social media campaign to cancel Disney plus or Hulu or subscriptions to Disney?
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E
I do think one very powerful tool that Americans have right now is boycotting and avoiding contributing to businesses and using businesses, sending our kids to colleges and universities, using law firms who are bending the knee and capitulating to this slide towards authoritarianism. There are other tools, too. Peaceful protest, mobilization, exercising speech. This is an all hands on deck moment, and every single tool must be used.
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C
Senator, as someone who knows Jimmy Kimmel personally, what would you say if you were alone in a room with the folks who made the decision to, quote, take him off the air indefinitely?
- [12:27]
D
Well, I would say this not just to ABC or to Disney, but as the congressman said, to the law firms, to the universities, to the businesses. Everyone knows when you're bullied, it's never enough. The bully takes your lunch money. The first day, it's a dollar. The next day they come back for $2. You are never left alone. You think that's going to appease them, but it doesn't. And the only power we have is to stand together and stand strong for our First Amendment rights, for our independence. Because for Donald Trump, it is never enough. And for his cronies, his billionaire bully buddies, they will continue to put that knee on the neck of the everyone until they choke the life out of them. It's what they want. And so if you want to survive in any way, don't you ever think that if you capitulate, they're not going to come for you? History has shown this over and over again. And if many people have been to the seventh grade, you also know for a bully, they never stop. And they'll turn on even their best friend on a dime if they think it benefits them.
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C
Senator Jackie Rosen, Congressman Jason Crow, thank you both so much for starting us off today. I want to bring into our coverage former Democratic senator, MSNBC political analyst Claire McCaskill. Ann Applebaum is still with us. I mean, Anne, it's interesting. Congressman Crow is the first person I've heard endorse some of the grassroots tactics of boycotting. I've seen that on social media. I hadn't heard an elected official say that is one of the. I don't want to put words in his mouth, but he said one of the tools that the American people have, calling for people to wake up and speaking directly to. I, I think our media executives in America are some of the. They always make the wealthiest people in the country less. You hear a real fire out of Democrats today.
- [14:18]
F
I think in this kind of circumstance, what you want is for everybody to do their job. So we want politicians to do their job. We want them to speak out like they've been speaking out. We want them to contact their constituents. We want them to think about what legal solutions there are. We want journalists to do their jobs, by which I mean we should explain to people what's happening, do what you're doing, go through the different ramifications. We want lawyers to do their job. You know, remind people, why do we have free speech in the first place? Why is it so important to our political system? I mean, this whole news cycle began with a really horrific act of political violence. One of the reasons we have democracy was to prevent political violence. We have a political system system where people are meant to come to consensus. They're meant to debate in a civil manner. Part of protecting speech and part of encouraging free speech and encouraging debate is to encourage. Is to build that kind of culture. And so. And ordinary citizens should also do their jobs. They should engage in politics. They should talk to their members of Congress. They should vote. They should be part of civic organization organizations. Everybody has a role that they can play. And if people play it, then we can push back.
- [15:34]
C
Well, I mean, to the point you're making, I mean, everything and, you know, you're the expert here, but every book on authoritarianism relies on the cheapest, least violent tool they have, and that is despair and hopelessness. It doesn't cost the autocrat anything. They don't have to fire a single bullet. They make the fight against an authoritarian slide feel hopeless. And I wonder what the antidote is for that.
- [16:02]
F
No, their goal is nihilism. You know, if people say, right, this political world is so ugly and dirty, I just want to be out of it. I don't want anything to do with it. I'm just going to stay home. You know, that's what they want. And so if you want to fight back against that, you should do the opposite. You know, connect to people. I mean, it's hard for me to give general advice because it depends on where you are and who you are and what you. But in your job, you can make a contribution or in your community or in your civic organization or in your church. Everybody has ways of speaking out or telling the truth or engaging in civic life and find the way that suits you the best.
- [16:45]
C
I interviewed Joan Baez yesterday, which was a privilege and an honor, and she's so incredible. And I said, you know, one of the things people say is, we've been through this before. Just look at the 60s. And she said, no, that was so different. This is worse. We had each other. We were the glue. I played the video from August of 1963 where she sings We Shall Ever Come, and she says, look at that. We were standing shoulder to shoulder with our leaders. We were in song, we were in community. You don't see that anywhere in this country.
- [17:14]
B
Yeah. And I think it's worth pointing out, Nicole, that these corporate executives and Donald Trump have something in common, and that's cowardice. Donald Trump would not be running out and trying to redraw the lines of congressional districts if he was confident. If he was confident he was as popular as he tries to pretend he is. He knows he's not popular, and stuff that he's doing like this doesn't help him. And yes, people feel despair and people feel fear and people feel anger, and a lot of people are just trying to turn it all off and make it go away. And Ann's right. There's all kinds of ways that individuals can fight back. But I would say to the corporate executives that are making these decisions, they are rationalizing them as business decisions, but they're American citizens, too. And I would like them to point out a time that Donald Trump has won in court when he has tried to threaten people over bogus facts and bogus law that doesn't exist in this country. And the stopgap to all of this is a jury. There's a reason why jurors in Washington, D.C. are not indicting somebody for throwing a sandwich of a federal crime. The grand jurors are saying, no, we're not doing that. And 12 ordinary citizens sit on juries. They decide these cases. And the idea that you rationalize giving up freedom of the press in this country because you don't want to fight Trump in court. And that is. That's just corporate cowardice. That's all that is.
- [18:54]
C
Or that you make a bet that the right wing media ecosystem is somehow underserved. It's the most oversaturated I mean, to your point about a business decision, it's the most oversaturated part of the media ecosystem.
- [19:09]
B
That's exactly right. And, and frankly, it's like these corporate executives aren't reading the same polls that we're reading. I don't care. Yes, most Americans, a lot of Americans, think both parties stink. They want to do both sides ism all of that. That's all true. But the bottom line is the vast majority of Americans do not approve of the vast majority of the things Donald Trump has done.
- [19:32]
C
30, 36, 39. Those are Donald Trump's approval ratings on inflation, the economy and immigration.
- [19:37]
B
Exactly the 2, 3. I think he's in a politically powerful position right now and there's a whole lot of Americans that are not going to follow him over a cliff. And do these corporate executives not see that? Don't they realize they're losing more customers than they're gaining by doing these things? It's just, it's a real head scratcher.
- [19:58]
C
It's more than that. It's a really good point. Okay, so here's what happens. As we've been on the air, David Letterman has spoken out at the, at the Atlantic Ideas Festival. We're going to, we're going to turn that around and show it to you. Claire and Ann, stick around. All of this is really unfolding since we've been on the Earth. So we'll bring you up to speed on what's happened over the last hour. We'll also tell you more about what Brandon Carr has been saying since we've been on the air the last hour and 20 minutes. Also, head for us. Donald Trump can travel abroad, but he still can't escape the Jeffrey Epstein scandal or protests of millions of people in the streets. Why reporters in London today laughed out loud at him in his face, something we know he doesn't like when he seemed to dodge a question about one of the officials caught up in and fired over the Epstein scandal. And why, for Trump, things might be about to get worse politically. DEADLINE White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
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E
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D
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E
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- [22:32]
C
I think this has happened since we've been on the air. Legendary talk show host David Letterman has weighed in on Jimmy Kimmel's indefinite suspension. Here he is with Jeffrey Goldberg of the Atlantic at the Atlantic Festival.
- [22:46]
E
This is misery. And in the world of somebody who is an authoritarian, maybe a dictatorship, sooner or later everyone is going to be touched. And then my good friend Jimmy Kimmel, I, you know, I just, I feel bad about this because we all see where this is going, correct? It's managed media and it's no good. It's silly, it's ridiculous. And you can't go around firing somebody because you're fearful or trying to suck up to an authoritarian, criminal administration in the Oval Office. That's just not how this works. The institution of the president of the United States ought to be bigger than a guy doing a talk show. It would be hilarious if it wasn't all leading to something that, from which we won't recover.
- [23:40]
C
I mean, it counts as bravery to say that out loud. And it's perhaps the most concise and honest assessment of where we are right.
- [23:50]
F
Now, honesty is going to be the thing that sells. People want to hear people being honest. And I think if whether it's that you're the head of a corporation or whether you run a university or whether you run, whether you are an ordinary person, the more honest you can be and truthful you can be about what you see happening, the more I think you will be appealing. I mean, I think that's the only way to be right now.
- [24:16]
C
You look at Zelenskyy's iconic reputation. He is a former comedian who's standing up against a brutal, vicious, authoritarian dictator of Russia who's indiscriminately targeting civilians. It's not a war that he invited, but it is a moment he has met. And I wonder, you know, in terms of meeting the moment, where is your gaze right now?
- [24:45]
B
Well, I do think that elected officials, and we have done this plea so many times it's boring. But elected officials of both parties need to see this as all hands on deck moment. And Ann is right. This country craves two things right now. Honesty and bravery. And there's not a lot of either of those in the Oval Office. We all know Trump lies. You know, like most people brush their teeth, he's more comfortable lying frankly, than he is telling the truth. And I really think that if a few more leaders that are on the other side of the aisle would show some bravery and be honest, Be as honest with the public as you are with me and others that you have been friends with.
- [25:38]
C
What are you hearing?
- [25:40]
B
I'm hearing that senators have asked former Republican senators, not Republican senators have asked former Republican senators not to talk to them about Donald Trump and because they are too uncomfortable on the subject matter. In other words, they're embarrassed. They're embarrassed about their failures. I mean look at, look at the blowback Cassidy is getting as a doctor when he's just basically trying to save babies lives, making sure they get their hepatitis vaccine when they're born because he's a liver specialist. And he's getting all kinds of blowback for just being honest about babies health.
- [26:15]
C
Explain this to me. Marco. Richard. Marco Rubio believed in usaid. Marco Rubio destroyed usaid. Senator Cassidy believed that the Hep B vaccine saved babies lives. He voted for an anti vax crank. Mitch McConnell believed that Ukraine was a good guy and Russia was a bad guy. He voted for Donald Trump and supported his reelection. What space is there for any of them to have any credibility or dignity if they all voted against their own interests and policy priorities?
- [26:46]
B
I couldn't agree with you more. But the point is they are now watching as this man is using the tools.
- [26:52]
C
No, no, no, they're not watching. They enabled this.
- [26:55]
B
They enabled this by and doing nothing. Wringing their hands and staying silent. And if more of them would speak up, it could make a real difference. And you know what? They might get elected president. You know what I'm saying is that this moment of bravery and courage, I just, just don't think they understand the political opportunity is there. Everyone is so busy trying to out Trump trump. I mean, J.D. vance is embarrassing what he's trying to do.
- [27:21]
C
Katie Vance, who called Donald Trump America's Hitler and cultural heroine and gave a pretty profound speech about the First Amendment. I played it, I played it in the last hour. I mean, that's the political opportunity, and I agree with you. What is the business opportunity to standing up and taking a risk right now for our democracy?
- [27:40]
F
I mean, I, I think the American public might well reward CEOs who said, we are going to abide by our company's principles, whether it's in media or whether it's in the environment. You know, we, we think climate change is real and our company is going to go on producing solar panels or windmills. You know, we think health is important, and we're going to go on making vaccination because we think that our vaccines work. In fact, we know they work because science has shown they work. And the more companies, the more leaders, the more CEOs who feel comfortable saying that, I think the better off we'll all be and the better off they might be. I mean, it may be a commercial opportunity.
- [28:20]
C
What is the impact of sort of a catalytic moment like the removal of Jimmy Kimmel in a country slide away from democracy and toward autocracy? Does it, does it ever go the other way? Or does it simply make people realize how quickly we're tumbling into the abyss?
- [28:39]
F
Things do go the other way, and it can be very hard to predict what they will be. I mean, nobody predicted three days ago that Jimmy Kimmel would somehow be a topic of national conversation. But there often does come a kind of moment when people say, this is too much, or that's ridiculous, or we can't take it anymore. Actually, you were talking about Hungary earlier. It's happened in Hungary. Hungary. In the last few months, there was a documentary made about essentially Viktor Orban's family. This is the Hungarian Prime Minister's family, and how much money they had and how much money they'd stolen and they'd been involved in various corruption scandals. And somehow. And it wasn't. I watched the documentary. It wasn't that good or fancy or anything, but it was somehow the straw that broke the camel's back. And some millions of people saw it. And people said, wait, why are we allowing this to happen? And so, so of course, there are, there can be moments like that. And also, there can be moments when your old colleagues also say, enough. You know, we're tired of being humiliated and we're tired of having to go against our principles all the time. And maybe we will reach one of those moments.
- [29:43]
C
Ann Appelbaum, I know we get to have you here because you're here for the Atlantic Festival, but it's a treat. For whatever reason, please come back whenever you happen to be here. Thank you for being here today. Claire, we're not done with you. I feel like you've got more in that notebook I've seen you scribbling. I'm going to try to get it out of you. When we come back. Donald Trump is facing more questions about the Jeffrey Epstein scandal, this time from reporters in the uk. What they asked, what he said. We'll show you next.
- [30:15]
E
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C
No matter where he goes, Donald Trump cannot escape his and his administration's completely botched handling of the criminal cases involving deceased sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. Trump's ties to Epstein haunting him during his state visit to the UK with these images spread across the grounds of when Windsor Castle this week. Today, when asked about the UK's former ambassador to the US Peter Mandelson, who lost his job because of his close ties to Jeffrey Epstein, Donald Trump resorted to a familiar, rather tired excuse.
- [32:01]
F
Watch, if I may, the elephant in the room. Lord Mandelson.
- [32:07]
A
He is no longer the ambassador.
- [32:09]
F
Do you have some sympathy with him that he lost his job over historic links to Jeffrey Epstein?
- [32:16]
A
Thank you very much, sir.
- [32:16]
E
I don't know him, actually. I had heard that and I think maybe the Prime Minister would be better.
- [32:22]
F
Speaking of that, that was a choice.
- [32:24]
C
That he made and I don't know. What is your answer to that?
- [32:27]
E
Well, I mean, it's very straightforward.
- [32:32]
C
That laughter you heard there, possibly due to the fact that there is photographic evidence there it is on your screen that Donald Trump does know the man in question. Mr. Mandelson here is the former ambassador pictured with Donald Trump in the Oval Office, no less, just a few months ago. Let's bring into our conversation opinion writer for the New York Times, MSNBC political analyst Mara Gay, and former criminal division deputy chief at SDNY, MSNBC legal analyst, host of a new YouTube show, Courtside. Christy Greenberg's back. Claire Stowe with us. Mara, I've been pretty fixated on the images coming out of the uk. They just, they just, they know how to do this stuff. I mean, the protests in the street are massive. The questions are respectful but pointed, something you don't see Donald Trump get very often because of the complete remaking of the White House press corps that has happened and the ties to Jeffrey Epstein. I mean, this is where the right wing media echo chamber had it, right? It was an international sex ring that Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell ran well.
- [33:43]
A
And the broader context of Donald Trump's visit to the uk, in which he has been clearly looking forward to a royal reception, to dinners on his behalf and a campaign by the UK to, and understandably in some ways to kind of charm him and, you know, the wisdom of that long term, you know, you ask every CEO in America, we'll see, but you can understand why they're doing that. But yet, despite all that pomp and circumstance that he loves, at the end of the day, this story has followed him across the Atlantic. And, you know, I have to say, I mean, my colleagues, our colleagues in the press conference do an extraordinary job here in Washington and in New York and all over the country. But there is something different about watching folks in the UK feel freer, really. I think in some ways journalists and citizens. Journalists and citizens. And that kind of, you know, gives me a sense of sadness and concern because, you know, this is still a democracy and our rights only matter so far as we exercise them. And so just given the chilling environment that we now find ourselves in, quite suddenly, in some ways it was a contrast, no question, I had the exact.
- [35:02]
C
Same reaction, not so much to the press, because I think people like Vaughn Hilliard and your colleague Tyler Pager have explained how they've so completely remade the press corps that journalists from the New York Times, for example, only see him intermittently because of the way they rotate in and out. But to the public and to the size of the crowds on the street in the uk that was amazing.
- [35:24]
D
Yeah.
- [35:25]
A
I mean, it gives you a sense. Also, it's a reality check for Donald Trump. You know, we are subject here in the United States to just constant stream of propaganda from the White House and from this president, which we know these are lies about how beloved he is, what's popular, what's not. We know that's not true, but yet seeing the reaction of people who are not in the United States to this president, there was something cathartic about it, I think, for a lot of Americans who are deeply concerned about his agenda here at home. And so, you know, maybe there's an example there.
- [36:00]
C
Yeah, I had the same thought. The truth about the Epstein story, though, is that this is the week that it became bipartisan. You had Kennedy the most. I don't want to call it hostile, but the most direct comments for Patel on Epstein, some of them came from Kennedy, Senate Republican Senator from Louisiana. You've got Thomas Massie swinging away with Democrat Ro Khanna. I mean, that story is getting.
- [36:29]
B
More.
- [36:30]
C
Complicated for him politically here at home than less.
- [36:33]
G
Yeah, they asked some of the best questions of Kash Patel at that hearing, and my hope is that they're not done. I mean, tomorrow. Tomorrow, Alex Acosta is in the hot seat, and, boy, are there questions to ask him. If you are mad at what Kash Patel is doing in covering this up. And you should be. Should be really steamed at Alex Acosta because He was the U.S. attorney in Florida. He was the guy who gave the sweetheart deal to Epstein that after FBI interviewed over 50 victims, and then he signed an agreement with Epstein to say, oh, this is better dealt with as a state offense. And this guy got. Went to jail for, you know, 16 months, but it was, you know, he was allowed to go in on work release. He basically wasn't in jail. I mean, he referred to the deputies, like, praised their service to him. I mean, it was a joke. It was a complete joke. And so there are so many questions that we want both sides of the aisle to really be asking, asking Alex Acosta tomorrow. You know, that agreement was supposed to remain a secret. It's now out in the open for everybody to See just how unjust it was, just how infuriating it was, that this was certainly not justice. And he's going to now have to face the music tomorrow from both sides.
- [37:49]
C
He's not on their first list of people they want to subpoena. How does he end up in the hot seat tomorrow?
- [37:55]
G
I think because there was so much outrage that he was. I mean, he is the person. Even Kash Patel is. The one thing he said during the hearing, I agreed with Alex Acosta really jeopardized inability to be able to proceed with this investigation. So I think the fact that everybody recognizes that, I mean, the non prosecution agreement importantly, was not just for Jeffrey Epstein, it was for all potential co conspirators, which is outrageous, by the way. That is not done. You don't give a non prosecution agreement to other unidentified individuals. And that also fans the flame of, well, why would you do that? There clearly have to be other people who are involved. And that was Senator Kennedy's question. Who, who else were you trafficked? Were girls being trafficked to? And Patel said no one. It was just to himself. But then why in the agreement are you covering this? You know, this large group of potential co conspirators? There's clearly more there. He needs to answer those tough questions tomorrow.
- [38:54]
C
I mean, Republican Tom Massie says there are 20 other people.
- [38:58]
B
Yeah, and by the way, the files are coming out. They only need one more signature. And that House seat is going to be filled by a Democrat in a special, I think, in the next, you know, few weeks. So it's only a matter of time. That discharge petition is going to come to the floor. And you know what's going to happen.
- [39:15]
C
When it comes to the floor.
- [39:16]
B
It's going to pass. And you know what happens?
- [39:18]
C
I hope we're all here on that day.
- [39:19]
B
Oh, yeah, it will, it will. And then it'll all come out and we will realize that. And by the way, remember, Acosta was one of Trump's best people. Remember, he was only going to hire the best people and he put him at the Labor Department in his first administration. And when Acosta resigned, Trump even said, he doesn't have to do this. I'm not asking him to go. You know, like he was all ready to Acosta and he knew that Acosta is the guy who'd given Epstein the sweetheart deal. I mean, it was obvious that would have been in the background about Acosta when he came to his desk to be appointed Secretary of Labor.
- [39:56]
C
We assume that there's a vetting, but yes, you're right, there probably was. We just need to get a break. But we'll look ahead some more to what's going to happen tomorrow. Stay with us. We are back with Mara, Christy and Claire. Claire, it's so fascinating that this issue, Epstein, is one on which Kennedy can string together a noun and a verb and ask a question of a Trump appointee that isn't a compliment about, you know, how brilliant he is. That Massie has joined arms and is swinging away day in and day out with a Democratic colleague. And there's probably no issue around which Donald Trump acts more sort of irrational and sensitive. They deployed, I think, thousands of FBI agents to pour through the files. And multiple news organizations reported that what they found was that Trump's name was in them. Elon Musk tweeted it as well. Why is this issue animating this rare bipartisan response?
- [41:13]
B
I think because Trump himself and certainly Cash Patel made this a cause celeb of their political narrative, that somehow he was coming to Washington to clean out the underbrush of bad characters. And they were all coming and by the way, and part of that was covering up all the people that were in the Epstein files. And he was, you know, Trump was point blank asked, yes, I would release the files. And we know what Cash Patel said about it. Put on your big boy pants and release the files.
- [41:48]
C
No, I have to quote it perfectly because I love it. House Republicans, put on your big boy pants and tell us who the pedophiles are.
- [41:56]
B
Yeah, so because they have done an about phase, it signals to a lot of people in MAGA world that maybe they're not these soldiers. They thought they were for cleaning out the swamp. Maybe they are there protecting the swamp. And that's a very difficult narrative for him to get on the other side of because there's nothing he can say, he can't say. When he says it's a hoax, it makes him look stupid to his own base because they, that's saying to them, wait, you've been telling us all along and now you're saying that we're done, that we fell for a hoax? So it doesn't work. He has not figured out, he's tried to distract, he's tried to deflect, he's used his play of lying creating a new narrative and none of it is working. And the fact that Massie is being so strong on this, you talk about somebody who they're going to come after. I mean, they've already organized a huge political operation against him to take him out in the primary. That will be a very interesting primary to watch next fall. But I'll predict Massey wins.
- [42:57]
C
Well, what's interesting about this and about the shifting sort of politics underneath the ground for these guys, 81% of Americans think Donald Trump is hiding something when it comes to the Epstein files. And then it goes down from there. I think the person Todd Blanche is at about 60%. I think he's part of the COVID up. But wide swaths of Americans which crosses all partisan divisions. Only 30% of Americans approve of Donald Trump's performance on inflation. It's under 40 in terms of his approval rating on immigration. And I saw a poll about young women and things they found attractive or unattractive. And they said listening to Joe Rogan was something they found unattractive. I mean, the culture is slipping away from them in that they are the swamp, they are the establishment, and the manosphere is now a wholly owned subsidiary of the state.
- [43:44]
A
Yeah, I mean, that's exactly right. There's also, despite the years we've spent discussing Trumpism, I think we're still learning actually about what it is that drew Americans who care about other Americans, who, many of whom are highly educated, smart people, what drew them to some of these conspiracy theories and what drew them to the movement in general. And I think the interesting thing is that the Epstein story is one way to see how that unravels and that trust, that relationship between the president and between these supporters is coming undone in real time over this one issue. So what are the other threads that can be pulled?
- [44:26]
C
It's fascinating. Mara, Christy, Claire, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for being here for the whole hour, my friend. When we come back, it's becoming an issue that is dividing a lot of people in the Republican Party. It could reach a breaking point tomorrow. Will it explain next? Today we're keeping an eye on the first day of the CDC's vaccine advisory panel meeting. They will make recommendations on who should get Covid shots this fall and whether all babies should get vaccinated against hep B at birth. Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Has stacked the panel with members who question the senior safety of vaccines. And he has barred professional medical groups like the American Academy of Pediatrics and the American Medical association from serving in their traditional roles as expert liaisons to this committee. It comes in the wake of yesterday's dramatic Senate hearing where ousted CDC director Dr. Susan Minaros warned that there is a, quote, real risk that recommendations could be made restricting access to vaccines for children and others in need without rigorous Scientific Review. We're going to keep an eye on that story. Another break for us. We'll be right back. As the world witnesses Donald Trump's efforts to outrun the Jeffrey Epstein scandal wherever he goes, even on his visit to the UK this week, for Jeffrey Epstein's victims, their focus is on healing, something they can never escape, and on justice. I talked to one of them for this week's episode of the Best People podcast. Jess Michael is a survivor of sexual abuse by Jeffrey Epstein and now a powerful advocate for survivors everywhere. Scan the QR code on your screen to listen to what she had to say or download the conversation wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes today. We are so grateful.
- [46:26]
E
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