"Determined solidarity"

Summary

Podcast Summary: Deadline: White House — "Determined Solidarity"

Host: Nicolle Wallace (with major contributions from Alex Tabett, Brian Bakst, Ben Rhodes, Mark Elias, Dan Goldman)
Date: January 31, 2026

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Episode Overview

In "Determined Solidarity," Nicolle Wallace and her guests deliver in-depth coverage and analysis of the dramatic situation unfolding in Minneapolis and other American cities. The episode focuses sharply on the Trump administration's militarized immigration crackdown, the subsequent widespread protests and general strike, and alarming moves to undermine press freedom and election security. The conversation combines firsthand accounts from reporters on the ground, legal and political analysis, and reflections on civic resistance and the importance of democracy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Militarization of Immigration Enforcement and Community Fear

• The Trump administration has deployed aggressive tactics via ICE and CBP in Minneapolis and other cities. Residents—especially immigrants and communities of color—live in fear, with some effectively sheltering in place for months.
• The crackdown has included shootings of civilians and a climate of intimidation, impacting the daily lives of thousands.

Notable Quote:

“They're like goons. They're running around on the streets. If you're a brown or black person, they'll pull you over and ask for papers. You have to prove that you're a citizen. What kind of country is that? I mean, that's ridiculous.”
— Dan Goldman (00:54)

2. Protest Movement and General Strike: Solidarity Over Fear

• Massive protests and a one-day general strike have emerged in response, with tens of thousands taking to the streets despite freezing conditions.
• The theme of "determined solidarity" is recurrent, as individuals of all backgrounds support targeted neighbors, notably with white allies demonstrating on behalf of those too afraid to join.
• The protests are youth-driven. High schoolers organize walkouts via social media; for many, this is not their first protest.

Notable Quotes:

"Our kids are from all over, all over the world here. And they're terrified ... I have a friend who was adopted from Korea back in 1983, and he won't leave his house because he's afraid."
— Julie, former schoolteacher/protester (05:08)

"Community means everything in the state. Our school showed that as well. And I cannot emphasize enough how much that meant for me and my friends around here, everybody at the school."
— Julie, high school senior (10:05)

Memorable Moment:

Alex Tabett grows emotional after hearing a student describe America not as seen “on tv,” but as a genuine community.
— (11:43)

3. Attacks on Press Freedom

• The arrest of journalist Don Lemon and others for covering protests marks a disturbing step toward authoritarianism, which both local prosecutors and national commentators critically highlight.

Notable Quote:

“If that's taken away, then we've lost our freedom. They're trying to shut down journalists, they're trying to shut down protesters who are filming. They're trying to destroy our way of life. So that's why we're all here, to stand up for that.”
— Julie, protester (03:49)

• Media institutions vow to continue reporting despite increased risk.

4. Political and Legal Analysis: Threats to Democracy

• There is acute concern that these events are part of a "master plan" to destabilize elections and invoke the Insurrection Act, which could be used as a pretext to delay or cancel elections—a scenario repeatedly floated by Trump and his surrogates.

Notable Quotes:

“The idea, of course, is to send Donald Trump's paramilitary force ... to create a whole situation in cities across this country where he can then invoke the Insurrection Act. And if he evokes the Insurrection act, he can then claim that he needs to cancel the elections until the, quote, invasion is over with.”
— Dan Goldman (22:23)

“What is so notable is that it is really the agents who are initiating the violence. ... He wants there to be so much chaos that he says, oh, we need to send the military in.”
— Dan Goldman (23:36)

• Legal experts warn that recent DOJ and FBI actions, along with the presence of Trump loyalists like Tulsi Gabbard at critical events, signal unprecedented federal encroachment on state-run elections.

Notable Quote:

“If Trump can use the DOJ to seize ballots from a 2020 election office, he will believe he can do the same everywhere in the country in 2026.”
— Mark Elias (29:54)

5. Resistance & Civil Engagement: Hope, Despair, and the Stakes

• The movement is described as a cross-generational, cross-cultural unification in response to authoritarian overreach.
• Civic action is at the heart of the response; professional athletes, artists (notably Bruce Springsteen), and business owners are actively involved.

Notable Quote:

"All of it is going to be changed for better or for much worse by what happens in this November. We are either going to survive as a democracy by having free and fair elections, or we're not."
— Mark Elias (42:54)

6. The Role of States and the Federal System

• Experts highlight the unique role of states in upholding electoral integrity. Federal encroachment under false pretenses is flagged as a "giant red flag" for democracy.

Notable Quote:

"Any federal encroachment on the conduct of elections, the administration of elections by states is a giant red flag that we all have to pay a lot of attention to."
— Ben Rhodes (36:25)

7. The Power of the People—Sustaining Civic Energy

• Former Attorney General Eric Holder’s pre-recorded message underscores that the American people—through engagement, resolve, and history's lessons—are the last line of defense for democracy.

Notable Quote:

“The only thing that is going to save this nation, that's going to save this democracy, is the American people. An engaged, focused, committed American people.”
— Eric Holder (46:00)

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Timeline of Major Segments

| Timestamp | Segment/Content | |------------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:45–03:21| Intro to protests and ICE crackdowns, initial reactions from on-the-ground reporters | | 03:49–05:50| Interview with protester Julie—effect on press freedom, personal/family impact, use of privilege in protest | | 06:46–10:46| Interviews with high school protestors—community, youth activism, fear, student walkouts | | 13:35–15:19| Brian Bakst on business strike, community division, role of professional sports franchises | | 15:26–17:12| Ben Rhodes—nationwide solidarity, breaking through "Trump era" numbness, "unicultural moment" | | 22:23–26:50| Dan Goldman—analysis on Insurrection Act, election rigging, legal challenges, threats to voting rights | | 27:17–28:45| Basil—loss of institutional guardrails, rise of intimidation, youth information ecosystems | | 30:35–34:54| Mark Elias, Ben Rhodes—Tulsi Gabbard’s involvement, law enforcement’s role, encroachment on state elections | | 38:48–39:25| Bruce Springsteen’s protest song, cultural/artistic responses | | 42:54–44:49| Mark Elias—democracy's fate tied to free and fair elections in November; sustaining resistance energy | | 45:34–46:09| Eric Holder—power and responsibility of the people as democracy's last resort |

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Tone and Language

The episode is urgent, emotional, and resolutely civic-minded. Wallace and her guests speak with clarity and alarm, combining legal and political precision with passionate, lived testimony from those affected on the ground. The language is accessible but charged, moving between analysis, advocacy, and first-person storytelling.

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Additional Memorable Moments

• Bruce Springsteen’s Protest Song:
  Wallace highlights the cultural resonance and impact of Springsteen’s new work, tying music’s history in protest movements to current events.
  (38:48–39:25)
• Republican and Democratic Voices:
  The show features viewpoints across the political spectrum, emphasizing the broad-based concern about erosion of rule of law and press freedom.

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Conclusion

"Determined Solidarity" is a defining episode capturing a nation at a pivotal moment. It provides:

• On-the-ground testimony about how federal crackdowns devastate communities,
• In-depth legal analysis explaining why this is about more than immigration policy—it's about the future of American democracy,
• Stirring accounts of resistance, unity, and the necessity of civic engagement,
• A warning that sustaining this energy and ensuring fair elections are the stakes for the generation.

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Summary Note:
This episode serves as a vital chronicle of resistance, warning, and hope. Wallace and her panelists urge listeners—whatever their background—to recognize the moment’s gravity, defend civil liberties, and remain vigilant and united in the face of unprecedented democratic threats.

Transcript

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[Nicole]

If you could talk directly to.

[Mark Elias]

The Trump administration, what would you want them to know?

[Alex Tabett]

Well, I'd like them to get these.

[Dan Goldman]

People out of here.

[Nicole]

These ICE people don't belong here.

[Dan Goldman]

They're like goons. They're running around on the streets. If you're a brown or black person.

[Alex Tabett]

They'Ll pull you over and ask for papers. You have to prove that you're a citizen. What kind of country is that? I mean, that's ridiculous.

[Nicole]

It's crazy. It's happening right now. Hi again everybody. It's five o' clock in New York. A number of moving pieces as we come back on the air, all historic in ways good and bad to track for you this Friday evening. All stemming from Donald Trump's urban warfare tactics being deployed on the streets of American cities to target immigrants and American citizens alike. A day in which fear and anger have fully morphed into determined solidarity on the part of thousands of Americans who are taking to the streets of American cities, many of them also calling for a one day general strike in which people stay home and out of shops and restaurants and refrain from spending money to send a message with their wallets as well. Protesters assembling peacefully with one goal to ensure the whole. The White House is well aware that what it is allowing immigration officials to do in the name of the American people, the American taxpayer, will not go unchallenged. Fittingly, running parallel to today's protests and general strike is the down downward trajectory for the rule of law and the Constitution. As we mentioned in the last hour, it appears we have reached the arresting journalist phase of our country's plunge toward authoritarianism. Former CNN anchor, now independent journalist Don Lemon along with three others were taken into custody by federal agents investigating an anti ICE protest last weekend. As our colleague Carol Lennox has been reporting Career DOJ prosecutors in both the Minnesota and Los Angeles offices refuse to take part in bringing these cases. Refused to be involved in charging Lemon and the other journalists out of a belief that the evidence does not support charging them with crimes. These twin developments, protests and crackdowns against journalists, when considered together, underscore the truly historic nature of what we are covering this hour, what may be a turning point for the country. It's where we start on the ground in Minneapolis with our reporters Namdi Iguamo and Alex Tabett. Alex, you want to go first or who are you ready with more of these incredible people that you've been talking to? Braving the freezing cold temperatures.

[Ben Rhodes]

That's right.

[Mark Elias]

More than it looks like.

[Ben Rhodes]

Tens of thousands of people continue to.

[Nicole]

Brave this frigid temperature, including Julie right here. Julie, if you could show the camera your sign. It says release the journalists. Of course, we saw the arrest of Don Lemon last night. Georgia Ford, a local prominent journalist here, Emmy award winning journalist. Why did you think it's important to bring this sign here today, Julie?

[Julie]

Because we depend on the freedom of the press and the First Amendment. If that's taken away, then we've lost our freedom. They're trying to shut down journalists, they're trying to shut down protesters who are filming. They're trying to destroy our way of life. So that's why we're all here, to stand up for that.

[Nicole]

And Julie, you told me that this protest and everything that's been happening here in Minnesota is personal to you right now. Help explain why this is so personal.

[Julie]

It's all personal. It's personal at every. My dad was a vet. He got care at the veterans hospital at the VA where Alex Preddy, he was a nurse there, and he was just shot in the street for filming. I have a Native American daughter. Her community is being attacked right now. Our friends, our neighbors, they're from all over the world here in Minnesota. And we love our neighbor. We stand up for our neighbor. Trump is trying to shut us down and he's trying to make us afraid. But look at this. Everybody comes and shows up for our neighbor. We're not going to hate. We're going to show love.

[Nicole]

And Julie, you used to be a schoolteacher. Can you talk to me a little bit about how this immigration crackdown is impacting the most vulnerable people in our society, how it's impacting children?

[Julie]

Yeah, I mean, our kids are from all over, all over the world here. And they're terrified. Not just the kids, but the adults are terrified, too. I have a friend who was adopted from Korea back in 1983, and he won't leave his house because he's afraid. He's been a citizen since 1980, 1983. But ICE doesn't care. They're going after anybody with brown skin. They're targeting people with accents. They don't care. It's brutal. People are afraid to leave their homes here. So I've got white skin. So I'm using my privilege to come out and speak for my friends and neighbors. We're telling them to stay home and stay safe, and we're coming out and fighting for them.

[Nicole]

Julie, thank you so much for your time and what Julie just said about her friend who's been sheltering at home.

[Mark Elias]

Hundreds, if not thousands of people throughout.

[Ben Rhodes]

The Twin Cities have been doing that.

[Nicole]

Not for just a couple of days, not for just a couple of weeks. This immigration crackdown from the Trump administration started in early December. Nicole. This is two months now of people afraid to leave their homes, to get groceries, to pick up their kids from school. This is a community in paralysis as the Trump administration refuses to. To stop, despite the fact that we have now seen two people shot and killed by federal agents. Nicole. Alex Tabett, thank you for your extraordinary reporting. Nnamdi, you are in another part of that protest. Tell us what you're reporting and what you're hearing.

[Alex Tabett]

You know, Nicole, we talk a lot about the fear of this moment and just the generally emotional distress that's dominated the city. But what I want to highlight is the solidarity that we've seen, the community that we've seen, and the role of young people in particular. I'm with a group of high school seniors here who probably should be in school, but they're out here at this protest. And I just. Talk to me first. It is freezing cold. What made you want to be here? Why was that so important for you today?

[Julie]

Community is everything in the state, and we felt the need that we needed to come out. It's our due diligence. Our parents are immigrants, you know, so this is. This is something big for us. You know, like, this is why we come out and we do this. This is nothing. You know, a couple Fridays ago, there's a big strike. More than 100,000 people came out. This is nothing, you know, so we're doing bare minimum. We see this at bare minimum, and Minnesota is cold. But you got to. Come on, you got to do what you got to do.

[Alex Tabett]

Absolutely. And you mentioned you guys are all immigrants. You have family that are immigrants. Tell me how personal this is for.

[Julie]

You, it feels very personal because I know personally how hard my parents work to come here. And I feel like immigrants are some of the most hardworking people because they come from absolutely nothing, and they build everything up all alone, not even knowing the language in this country, and yet they still work hard every single day, even now. The only reason, one of the reasons why it's so bad, is because they can't go to work and they can't support themselves. So I feel like this is really personal to me and my family, so just showing my support really helps. And.

[Alex Tabett]

Yeah, let me ask you a question. Earlier today, I don't know if you know, there was that city's church protest we saw. There's still arrests we're seeing from that. When you read those headlines, were you at all nervous about coming here?

[Julie]

Yeah, I was definitely scared because I.

[Nicole]

I didn't want anything to happen to me. Telling my mom, then my family that I'm coming to this protest today.

[Julie]

They were scared because there were something.

[Nicole]

That'S gonna happen to me or my.

[Julie]

Friends and just don't know.

[Alex Tabett]

Talk to me about your sign, what the message you're trying to send, and just what you think the message young people here are trying to send by being here in such high numbers.

[Julie]

So my sign, I chose this sign because it talks about liberty, and when we first started as a country, our whole thing was accepting immigrants through Ellis Island. So I just think it's very important because I see what my friends had to go through, and I thought it would be very important for me to be here and just show my support. So I think having young people here just shows that we do care and we just want to send a powerful message out.

[Alex Tabett]

So, yeah, Nicole, the theme here, solidarity. And as you see, that is across all ages.

[Nicole]

Nnamdi, can you ask them if this is the first day they've protested and if something has changed that made them want to come out today?

[Alex Tabett]

I can. Is this the first day either of you protested? And if so, what made you want to come out here specifically?

[Dan Goldman]

Let me go to you.

[Julie]

I also protested on the Friday when Alex Preddy was killed. And I. There was a lot of people there, and I decided to come out again because I felt like Friday was just such a powerful day. It just made me feel so at home, and just to know that there are so many people out here supporting immigrants really helped. So coming out here, seeing all these people supporting once again, just really helps me feel like we are still a community and America isn't just the things that you see on the news, it's actual people that support everyone, are actually kind hearted.

[Alex Tabett]

And just really quick, you mentioned that students at your school have organized in this moment too. Tell me about that.

[Julie]

Yeah, so there was a walkout at our high school and it was based off social media. I remember I had wanted to start one, but like I said, I was a little nervous on how that would end up making out. But somebody had posted it on Instagram. I believe everybody shared it. And within that, middle schoolers, high schoolers, about, I'd say 800 people decided to go out and walk out. There was a middle of school, negative 20 degrees weather, nobody had correct clothing on. But we knew we had to do this. This was our duty to do this. You know, community means everything in the state. Our school showed that as well. And I cannot emphasize enough how much that meant for me and my friends around here, everybody at the school.

[Dan Goldman]

It meant a lot to us, Nicole.

[Alex Tabett]

Thousands of people here. The protest is starting to move, but I just, it's growing in size. We're seeing, like I mentioned, people across ages, across ethnicities. It just, it really feels like a true moment of solidarity here in the city.

[Nicole]

And so interesting, Nnamdi, that there are, these are repeat protesters even among the youngest participants. Really, really extraordinary reporting. Namdi Iguamo, thank you so much. Joining our coverage, Minneapolis Public Radio senior politics editor Brian Bakst. Also joining us, former deputy national security advisor to President Obama, our contributor, Ben Rhodes. And with me at the table for the hour, Democratic strategist, Columbia University professor, political analyst Basilis Michael Basil. You're with the kids all the time, so maybe you don't get as weepy as I do, but to see young people, not just for the big protests, but out there, not for the first time today, it actually made me a.

[Alex Tabett]

Little weepy, especially that student talking about her immigrant parents as my parents. But she said something that was really important. She said America is not just what you see on tv.

[Nicole]

Yeah. On the news and on the news.

[Alex Tabett]

And talked about the importance of being in community. It's so important because it makes it more difficult for Trump or anybody else to other the people who are victims of the kind of violence that's been perpetrated here. It gives people a sense that they can come together, they're like minded and that as a community, they are a force to be reckoned with. A Trump voter was interviewed in Iowa, I think, the day that he spoke out there. And I remember the voter saying, you know what? For somebody to Be shot and killed on an American street. It should make all of us uncomfortable. And that's exactly the point. That for so long there are some people who. Who felt so comfortable believing that this won't come to their doorstep, but now it is smack dab on their doorstep and cannot be ignored. So that's why. Yeah, this gets me a little emotional because we can't be othered. We can't be segregated and pulled apart even as so many people in the administration and others are trying to do exactly that. That this needs to be replicated and is being replicated across the country.

[Nicole]

Well, to that point, let me just tell folks what they're seeing on their screens. And we've been covering the live protests in Minneapolis. I think we also now have images of live protests in New York City. A few minutes ago we showed you protests in Los Angeles as well. This is. There's the New York City. It's freezing here too. I mean, we don't have anything on Minnesota, but it is for us damn cold. Brian, let me ask you to just take me through this moment and the week that was.

[Brian Bakst]

What's the weeks that were. Because the duration of this, as your reporters mentioned, this has been going on here for about two months. And not only the immigration operations been front and center, but a lot of this resistance movement, these observation movements that that have been going on and it's been growing and growing. We had tens of thousands of people on the street last week and again this week. And of course it's not far from where Bruce Springsteen made a surprise appearance today to play his new protest song at First Avenue. People might remember First Avenue from Prince and the Revolution. That's where they put on the map. So there seems to be this kind of spirit of revolution that's taking hold here in Minnesota.

[Nicole]

We're going to try to find that tape. We played the song when it was released and the video when that was released. Let me ask you about the general strike, Brian. This is a Minnesota business center. On the closures, quote, I feel like it is a really important thing to do, especially since people are literally trapped in their houses and can't go to work. For people to be hidden and scared to go out in their community and for me to expect people to come and just purchase stuff, I don't even know what the point of it is right now. I'm really struggling. I don't know what I'm going to do after this. The whole of last year just blew. Business has already been down so much before this. What Is your sense of how widespread the calls for a general strike are across the state?

[Brian Bakst]

Yeah, it really depends on where you are. There's been more businesses that have taken part closer to Minneapolis, where the epicenter of this immigration action has taken place. But of course, there have been immigration arrests around the state, just not as much of an outpouring. And Minnesota, like a lot of the country, is kind of split between kind of very blue in the Twin Cities area and very red beyond the Twin Cities area. And so you're definitely getting mixed reaction things they need.

[Nicole]

Benrose, let me bring you in on everything we're covering. Your thoughts?

[Ben Rhodes]

Well, I think what we're seeing, Nicole, is this event, the killing of Alex Pareti coming on top of everything that's happened in Minneapolis. It feels like it's broken through in a way that very few events in the Trump era have. Right, people? And that's why that comment about, you know, there's more to America than what's on television is so powerful, because there is. And a lot of people that maybe don't follow every twist and turn, don't pay attention to every insane thing that's happening every day in the Trump era. They're seeing what happened. They saw the video of Alex Preddy being killed. They're seeing images of a militarized police force under DHS acting almost like they're fighting a counterinsurgency. But then they're seeing that the people protesting are not the caricature that Donald Trump or Stephen Miller or Kristi Noem say they are. This is not a group of, you know, lunatic, antifa, radical domestic terrorists. These are your neighbors. These are people just like the people in your communities. And so we're having a kind of unicultural moment here where people are paying attention and they don't like what they're seeing from the government. And they see people just wanting to go about living their lives. And Donald Trump is the one who ran for president saying he was going to restore order and not bring chaos, like he is the one bringing chaos and instability in our communities. And so, you know, I think we're at a real inflection point here, Nicole. I think you're right that we'll look back whatever is, you know, I'm not suggesting everything's going to be, you know, fine and dandy from here on in, but I think that the notion that you could sit on the sidelines like a lot of people and institutions in this country did after Trump's reelection, I think that notion is gone.

[Nicole]

Yeah. I mean, Brian, it's so interesting to me that even before that was clear to some of the businesses that have followed the people, the Minnesota Timberwolves were right there, one of the earliest professional sports teams to say anything after the killing of Renee Goode. Tell me what the Timberwolves mean to the state in the city of Minneapolis.

[Brian Bakst]

Well, clearly they're one of the sports hallmarks of the Twin Cities. And they postponed their game that night that Alex Brady was killed. And then the next night when they did have their game rescheduled, they held a moment of silence and the players and the coaches all spoke out. They talked about how they can't sit idly as their community is has torn apart. And you know, there are other sports franchises that have also been spoken up in these times. And so what we're seeing kind of, as Ben mentioned, this cross cultural movement here. And of course, even with the arrests today of the journalists who have been covering aspects of this, that's drawing more attention. And so if I think the Trump administration is trying to make a case or a show of these people, but they're actually drawing more people into to focus on what's happening in Minnesota and some of these images that you're seeing.

[Nicole]

Now, Brian, let me ask you if the arrest of two journalists for covering protests in Minneapolis changed anything about how you do your job.

[Brian Bakst]

Well, we're just going to continue to keep reporting this story. There are so many facets of it. Obviously, we are careful about getting ourselves in situations that could put our journalists in danger or could put us in any kind of legal jeopardy. But it is a wake up call. And our institution, as well as others around the state, other media organizations have put out statements just saying that we have a very important job to do in this time and we're going to keep doing it.

[Nicole]

Brian, thank you so much for spending some time with us. Ben and Basil, stick around for the hour as we continue to cover the protests on the streets of Minneapolis and around the country, as well as the economic strike going on nationwide right now in solidarity with people of Minnesota. Also ahead for us, the through line that connects the militarization of ICE operations in Minneapolis to the raid at the election headquarters in Fulton County, Georgia, will explain why all of it is making voting rights experts and democracy defenders very, very anxious about what Trump and his administration are planning ahead of the midterms. Democratic Congressman Dan Goldman and voting rights lawyer Mark Elias will join us. DEADLINE WHITE House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

[Julie]

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[Nicole]

The Trump administration's show of force using federal agents against migrants and American citizens in Minneapolis is first and foremost about Donald Trump and his delusional view about what is acceptable. But it is also about something equally sinister. Here's what Congressman Dan Goldman says about how the operations in Minneapolis are part of a master plan to take over elections.

[Dan Goldman]

The idea, of course, is to send Donald Trump's paramilitary force masked agents intent on inciting and conducting violence to create a whole situation in cities across this country where he can then invoke the Insurrection Act. And if he evokes the Insurrection act, he can then claim that he needs to cancel the elections until the, quote, invasion is over with.

[Nicole]

Another part of that grand plan. What we saw happen in Georgia this week with the FBI's raid of the Fulton county election office and seizure of ballots from the 2020 election. It was a display of a weaponized, fully taken over FBI. Also of Donald Trump's Director of National Intelligence, who was there acting on Donald Trump's unfounded, unsubstantiated, debunked by Bill Barr conspiracy theories. I want to bring into our coverage Democratic Congressman Dan Goldman of New York. He's a member of both the Judiciary and Homeland Security Committees. Just explain for us again the intersectionality of these two stories.

[Dan Goldman]

Yeah, and I think that it's multi pronged as January 6th was. First, Donald Trump decides that he's going to try to order partisan gerrymandering around the country mid decade in an unprecedented way. That was his effort to rig the election. Well, that has not worked out so well. Now he is sending in paramilitary secret ICE agents to who to be essentially terrorizing and violently dealing with citizens, immigrants, you name it, anybody who might be in their way. But what is so notable is that it is really the agents who are initiating the violence. The observers or protesters are not initiating any violence. But what we know, because Donald Trump said it himself, is that he wants it to lead to the Insurrection Act. He wants there to be so much chaos that he says, oh, we need to send the military in. And then once the Insurrection act is invoked, and Mark would have a better idea of how easy this is, he can say, oh, well, we can't have an election. Now, this is not just speculation because last week, I believe on the same day in the morning, Donald Trump said that he may have to invoke the Insurrection Act. And in the afternoon he had an offhanded comment about saying, oh, we shouldn't even have elections. It's not a surprise, it's not a coincidence that he said those two things on the same day. Because that, I believe, is what he is thinking about this ICE dragnet around the country.

[Nicole]

Dan, how do we as a country protect ourselves from that which is both illegal and unconstitutional?

[Dan Goldman]

Well, first is to understand that it's happening and to be ready for the bogus invocation of the Insurrection act and to make sure that we're making our voices heard as people are all around the country. And I was just at one of these rallies here in, in downtown Manhattan earlier this afternoon. The second thing we will do is hire lawyers like Mark Elias to, to file lawsuits to prevent them from moving forward with this. But there is also, I think, another element of it, another layer which you mentioned to Nicole, which is not only the Fulton county search warrant by the Director of National Intelligence, who has no law enforcement role. It is purely to try to get the voter rolls from 2020 to manipulate them. But Pam Bondi said in a letter to Tim Walls that she would order, not that she has any oversight over ice, but she would order the removal and withdrawal of, of the ICE and CBP agents if Tim Walls, the governor of Minnesota, turned over Minnesota's voter rights rolls. There's no reason for the federal government to have those voter rolls other than to try to purge them. This is all part of an escalating scheme to rig this upcoming election.

[Nicole]

You know, Basil, the other way we know this is what they are planning is we know that he tried to do it in the first term. He wanted to invoke the Insurrection Act. And in the first term, he had people like Mark Milley around him. John Kelly, I think Mark Esper was around at the time when he started talking about this. And there's a great deal of reporting about the people who said, you can't do that. No such figures exist in this second term.

[Alex Tabett]

No. And we've talked about this a lot, that the guardrails are gone. And I just want to echo Congressmember's points because the president has put billions of dollars into ICE to do a job they didn't normally do, but they're now doing things that other federal law enforcement agencies can't or won't because this is his personnel vendetta force. When you layer on top of what's happening on the ground in Minneapolis, in Minnesota and elsewhere, in addition to watching Tulsi Gabbard go. In dealing with ballots. Right. And election fraud, there is this wide section, this, this widespread attempt to keep people from voting, to keep people from being civically engaged, to keep people from. To actually keep them afraid to go out and do anything, to push back on what this administration is doing. It's widespread intimidation. Now, to the congressman's point again, and to something that, you know, I and others have said. You have to maintain a political and civic situation, situational awareness at all times. And that's why the. Why, in part, the arrests of the journalists are so concerning. Because as independent journalists, they are in people's phones. They're not so much on tv, they actually are on people's phones. They're what my students listen to. So it's the constant ability to get themselves information about what's happening that is a threat to this administration.

[Nicole]

Congressman, thank you for being here today. I Hope it's a conversation that we can continue in the days and weeks ahead. When we come back, the aforementioned Mark Elias will be our guest. We'll bring Ben into this conversation as well. Don't go anywhere. There's brand new reporting today about the turmoil at the FBI ahead of that raid at the Fulton county elections office that we've been covering. Two people familiar with the matter telling our colleague Ken Delaney that the special agent in charge of the FBI's Atlanta field office, Paul Brown, was forced out of his job earlier this month over his qualms about and refusal to carry out the searches and seizures of the Fulton county ballots. When reached for comment, an FBI spokesperson said this quote, Mr. Brown elected to retire, end quote. Brown's refusal could have been due to the fact that Donald Trump's claims of voter fraud in Georgia or anywhere else have been debunked over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, including by all of the people who worked for him, like Mike Pence and Bill Barr and down the chain. Despite that this raid being based on conspiracy theories, our next guest warns of this quote, it would be easy to dismiss this as just another example of Trump's deranged obsession with 2020, but I fear it is far more serious than that. If Trump can use the DOJ to seize ballots from a 2020 election office, he will believe he can do the same everywhere in the country in 2026. Joining our coverage, voting rights attorney, founder of democracy docket. The person issuing that warning, Mark Elias, Ben and Basil are still here. Mark Elias, can I just ask you to sort through something that I cannot. My brain isn't big enough to grasp. Why the hell was Tulsi Gabbard there?

[Mark Elias]

So that's the great question. There are three possibilities. The first is because Donald Trump is planning on saying that the 2020 election was interfered with by various foreign power. You know, he posted, he reposted some crazy conspiracy on social media that suggested, and I think I have this right, that Italy, Dubai, China and Switzerland were all in on in some form or fashion with rigging the 2020 election. We've heard him before say it's Venezuela. So that's option one is that Tulsi Gabbard is going to kind of validate some cockamamie theory about foreign interference. The second possibility is that, you know, she's been on the outskirts with the Trump administration and she thinks the way to get in is to lead the charge, to lead the election denier movement internally, even though it has Nothing to do with her, with her day job. Option three is that she represents the most extreme anti American, anti US, free and fair elections, part of the administration, and that she was there to of tell that tale and send that signal.

[Nicole]

What are the laws that restrain intelligence agencies from even operating in America?

[Mark Elias]

Right, so there are laws that prevent from operating. I mean, what's interesting is Todd Blanch today was running 1,000 miles an hour away from Tulsi Gabbard. He made it sound like she would just happen to be visiting Atlanta and stumbled across this and maybe took a phone call. He said that she had no role in this law enforcement operation. And I suspect that is because, as you suggest, it would raise all kinds of problems for these.

[Nicole]

She was just out getting her steps while we happened to be conducting a raid that was so offensive to the FBI, people that worked in the state that they left. I mean, I really can't get over this piece of the dni, the person who sits atop all the intelligence agencies inside an office where Raffensperger and Kemp are the statewide officials who said there was no fraud in the state. Bill Barr, who goes and does another little look, see, calls it bullshit. And Tulsi Gabbard, the head of intelligence, shows up there last week. What?

[Mark Elias]

Yeah, no, that's exactly right. It's not believable. And also remember, part of the people who said that they would Resign back in 2020 were actually in the White House, right? You had white people appointed by Donald Trump to work in his White House also said that at the time that they would. That they would resign, including, I believe, people in the White House Counsel's office. And of course, that's just not the case now. Right now you have an administration that is just enabling all of this. And so the question I would ask Todd Blanche, and I'd ask the law enforcement folks is why, if in fact she was not there as a law enforcement official, why was she allowed to be in an evidence truck? Because it wasn't just. She was like, around. She was like literally standing in front of boxes, which were presumably boxes of ballots. And that would. That would raise. That would raise other questions. And finally, you know, she and the Attorney General and Kristi Noem were slated to give an impromptu or at least a late scheduled address to the national association of Secretaries of State. What were they going to talk about now? It got canceled at the last minute, I suspect probably by someone in the White House who thought, this, this is not gonna end well. But what exactly was she and the Attorney General and The Department of Homeland Security going to say to the nation's.

[Nicole]

Chief election officials, Benrose, I thought that Kevin McCarthy picking out the color of starburst that Donald Trump wanted and giving him a jar only with the colors he liked was one of the best ways for people on the outside to understand the people on the inside. Right. Like, we think there's some deep national security articulation that exists somewhere in a classified PDB for Tulsi Gabbard being there. But she might have just been picking the starburst flavors that Donald Trump liked because she's been squeezed out of what appears from the outside just about everything else. Do you have any sort of theories of the case as to what they were doing there and why she was part of it?

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, I mean, a couple points that build on what Mark said. First of all, she's just a go to conspiracy theorist, right? I mean, that's how she kind of made her way from being a Democratic congresswoman to being in Donald Trump's orbit, right? By peddling conspiracy theories. So she's a useful person to kind of speak to that part of the Trump base, that part of the Trump administration. I think the more important point, though, builds on the first thing Mark said. The main bulwark we have, Nicole, we used to think it was the checks and balances with Congress and the Supreme Court. No, it's actually the federal system. It's the states. It's the fact that when it comes to our election, the states are the ones administer the elections. And so if the Trump administration really is going to cross the final third rail of messing around with the conduct of American elections, they need a pretext, they need a basis for there to be greater federal involvement in the management or adjudication of elections. And the two conspiracy theories that they have turned to the most to justify that kind of engagement are, number one, all these false claims of fraud. And I could foresee a situation in the midterm elections where after a potential Democratic victory, they say, well, there was fraud and Pam Bondi and Todd Blanche and Cash Patel are going to investigate it. And then that's a one set of problems. But the others, to say that there's some kind of threat, right, as Marc was saying, some kind of foreign threat. We've seen this. They could say, we saw this in 2020 and we didn't block it then and in 2024. And so therefore, we need the federal government to get more involved in the security of our elections. Right. And so that's what worries me, I think what we need to be watching is any effort. And we saw this in Minnesota when Pam Bondi asks for the voter rolls, right? Any federal encroachment on the conduct of elections, the administration of elections by states is a giant red flag that we all have to pay a lot of attention to. And just the fact of Tulsi Gabbard being there kind of raises that concern. That combination of conspiracy theory and federalization of election infrastructure, that's what we cannot have. Because that's when all of a sudden, we're in a space where we really do need to raise questions about the conduct of a free and fair election next year or this year.

[Nicole]

All right, no one's going anywhere. I've just taken a break, and then we'll show you what's happening across the country this hour. Don't go anywhere.

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[Dan Goldman]

I hear your voice sighing through the bloody mist.

[Nicole]

Here in our home they.

[Alex Tabett]

Killed and roamed in the winter of.

[Nicole]

26 will take our stand for this land I'm a stranger in our midst Remember the names of those who died.

[Alex Tabett]

On the streets of Minneapolis.

[Nicole]

It is insane that that song could be written in America in 2026. And anyone who hasn't read the whole lyric or seen the whole thing should go look at it. Bruce Springsteen recorded that song last weekend, wrote it last weekend, he said, recorded it and released it this week with a video and performed it today in Minneapolis. And just listening to it there, it reminds me of the protester that Alex Tabitt interviewed at the top of the hour who said, my neighbors haven't left the house in a month. So I'm out here because I'm white and I'm using my privilege to be out here to protect them.

[Alex Tabett]

Yeah. Bruce Springsteen wrote a similar song in the wake of the Amadou Diallo shooting many years ago here in New York City, which. And I'm reminded of that at times like this. I remember one of my intellectual heroes, Professor Derek Bell, who's passed away, but he talked about this thing called interest, convergence, to paraphrase. Something can happen to one community, but when other people feel connected and affected and people start to come together and they make change. And when George Floyd was murdered and Black Lives Matter took off, I was driving through a wealthy white neighborhood in this city or in this state, and there was a white woman with her 7 year old daughter holding up a Black Lives Matter sign. And I actually stopped and said, thank you. And we got to talk about this. And it's the coming together of people at times like this, in moments like this, that really does signal that this is a moment. I don't know how long it'll last, but I do think it will absolutely have an impact. It's an important moment. And at a time when people are really mindful of how after Black Lives Matter, all these companies promised they were gonna do all these things and then Donald Trump pushed them into submission and they all pulled back. What all of these folks that are protesting now is saying there isn't and should not ever be going, you know, Marguerites.

[Nicole]

I've covered Bruce Springsteen this week because you and I have talked on a weekly basis about the silence of so many powerful people and following the courage of the people of Minneapolis, St. Paul across Minnesota. And really there are people in the streets all across our country. I think we've had shots up since we've been on the air of New York City, Los Angeles, but there are protests in deep red corners of deep red states almost every day. Professional athletes have come out unmasked. The players association for the NBA spoke as an entire association. Individual NFL players have spoken out, actors using their platforms in a way they haven't for the last 15 months, really since the 2024 presidential election. And I guess my question for you is, without free and fair elections, there's nothing, right? The arrest of journalists like we woke up to this morning becomes normalized in a country where elections can be canceled, where the Insurrection act can be invoked, where an insurrection can be incited by the federal government itself and then used to squash dissent. How do you sort of sustain or transfer the energy and the cross culture momentum of waking up and really seeing what's happening to our neighbors and our friends and our towns and our streets to the fight to save free and fair elections?

[Mark Elias]

Yeah, Nicole, you just put really into words the thing that worries me every day I wake up and fight and I don't worry about Donald Trump and I don't worry about what he's saying or doing or the like. What I worry about is whether or not we as people who care about democracy will sustain the fight for free and fair elections. You know, as. As tragic as everything we have seen take place, as inspiring as everything we've seen take place, all of it is going to be changed for better or for much worse by what happens in this November. We are either going to survive as a democracy by having free and fair elections, or we're not. And if we don't, then frankly, the rest of it is just going to be kind of like a footnote in history. I don't mean that to diminish the hard work that people are putting in or to not grieve or pay homage to the memory of the people who were so terribly treated and killed. But if we do not have free and fair elections in 2026, that is what our generation will be known for. We will be known as the generation in which authoritarianism prevailed in this country. Because once you break that barrier, once, Don, Donald Trump can subvert the will of the electorate, once he can seize ballot boxes in, you know, the day after the election in 2026, once he can use the voter files to kick off hundreds of thousands or millions of people at scale and rig the outcome of the election. Once that happens, Nicole, then when you have me on your show and we are saying what, what comes next, how do you unring that bell? How do you unteach that lesson to Donald Trump for 2028? So I'll be honest with you, it's the one in my dark moments, in the moments that I do have despair, it is exactly what you just laid out, that we won't sustain the energy to fight for free and fair elections.

[Nicole]

Well, let's commit amongst friends here, mix the four of us that we will. We will sustain the energy. We will sustain the conversation. Mark Elias, you're a one man force of nature. I know you will. Mark Elias, Ben Rhodes, Bezos. Michael, thank you for being here at the end of a really trying week. I appreciate all of you so much. One more break, we'll be right back. Today we're releasing a really important episode of the Best People podcast. And we could not have asked for a better person to talk to about what's happening right now. He is former Attorney General of the United States, Eric Holder. And here's what he told me about the power of the people, what we're witnessing right now.

[Alex Tabett]

People, I've said this often, are slow to rouse. But once we do get to that state, we are in fact a mighty force. And you have to understand history to understand that that is so and that we still have that power. We still retain that power.

[Mark Elias]

Our institutions have failed us.

[Alex Tabett]

The executive branch has failed us. Congress has failed us. The Supreme Court has failed us. The only thing that is going to.

[Nicole]

Save this nation, that's going to save.

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This democracy, is the American people. An engaged, focused, committed American people.

[Nicole]

Premium subscribers can listen right now. You just scan the QR code on your screen to subscribe. The new episode will be available to everybody starting Monday. One more break. We'll be right back. Thanks for letting us into your homes this week. We're grateful.

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