"DNI Tulsi Gabbard is out"

Summary

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Deadline: White House — "DNI Tulsi Gabbard is out"

Host: Nicolle Wallace
Date: May 25, 2026
Main Theme:
Breaking news, political analysis, and panel discussion on the resignation of Director of National Intelligence Tulsi Gabbard, the politicization of U.S. intelligence under Trump, Congressional response to Trump’s controversial "slush fund" for January 6th participants, rising Republican dissent, and the war in Iran.

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Episode Overview

Nicolle Wallace opens the episode with breaking news: Tulsi Gabbard, Donald Trump's Director of National Intelligence, is resigning after her husband’s cancer diagnosis. While expressing sympathy for Gabbard’s family, Wallace and her guests provide a sharp critique of Gabbard's tenure, highlighting her sidelining on foreign policy, her role in the politicization of the intelligence community, and her pursuit of Trump’s conspiracy theories. The episode then pivots to analyze rare Republican pushback against a new Trump-backed "slush fund" for January 6th offenders, broader GOP fractures over Trump's leadership and foreign policy, and a notable legal defeat for the Trump Justice Department.

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Key Segments & Insights

1. Tulsi Gabbard’s Resignation and Legacy

[01:07] - [06:39]

• Announcement & Context: Wallace reports Gabbard’s resignation is tied to her husband’s serious illness, but her legacy as DNI is dominated by two issues: being sidelined during the war with Iran and deep politicization of intelligence under Trump.
• Contradiction of Principles:
  • Played 2019 clip of Gabbard warning against war with Iran:

  “A war with Iran would make the war in Iraq look like a cakewalk.” —Tulsi Gabbard [02:08]

  • Noted the irony of Gabbard defending the war years later, in direct opposition to her long-held public stance and losing her deputy, Joe Kent, as a result.
• Marginalization within Administration:
  • NYT reported Gabbard was “seldom seen in the room” for major decisions, not viewed as a key member of national security team.
• Embrace of Trump Conspiracies:
  • Gabbard re-focused DNI resources on investigating “treasonous conspiracy” claims against Obama-era officials and election fraud—often personally appearing at controversial events (e.g., FBI raid in Georgia).

“She brought her office…to bear on chasing down some of Donald Trump's wildest conspiracy theories and grievances. And she did that with fervor.” —Nicolle Wallace [03:43]

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2. Panel Reaction: John Brennan and Michael Feinberg

[05:15] - [09:25]

• Brennan’s Critique:
  • Questioned Gabbard’s qualifications and effectiveness:

  “…her record has something of questionable integrity as well as competence. She didn’t have the experience when she was nominated… She comported herself in a highly partisan and a very unfortunate…counterproductive manner.” —John Brennan [05:15]

  • Noted her inappropriate involvement in domestic law enforcement and “further debasing” of DNI integrity.
• Senatorial Oversight — Senator Warner’s Exchange with Gabbard:
  • Gabbard struggled to articulate justification for her presence at FBI’s election raid, admitting she was sent “at the request of the president” but did not know operational specifics.
  • Wallace:

  “An absolute mosh pit of an answer there under oath…” [07:54]

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3. The Fallout: Politicized Intelligence and GOP Silence

[09:25] - [14:30]

• Paul Rykoff’s Analysis:
  • Emphasized loss of nonpartisan, fact-based election security:

  “We have cast their conclusions and the lessons learned to the four winds simply because Donald Trump is afraid they reflect poorly on his 2016 victory.” [10:21]

  • Critiqued Marco Rubio and GOP leadership for their reluctance to oppose Trump, despite knowing better:

  “That would imply that Marco Rubio has the leverage of a normal human being with a spine…” [10:21]

• Discussion of Gabbard's Political Shifts:
  • Panel highlights how Trump’s orbit results in officials shedding principles.

  “…they exhibit a willingness to shed their prior principles and prior beliefs in the way that an aging snake would get rid of rough skin…” —Paul Rykoff [15:20]

  • No Trump official comes out better than they went in.

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4. Republican Break with Trump: The “Slush Fund”

[20:54] - [27:14]

• Details of Trump “Slush Fund” Plan:
  • Trump proposes paying January 6th offenders with taxpayer money, drawing rare outrage from GOP Senators.
  • Notable Republican reactions:
    • Sen. Thom Tillis: > “I think it’s stupid on stilts.” [21:26]
    • Sen. Ron Johnson: called it a “galactic blunder.”
    • Mitch McConnell: > “…slush fund to pay people who assault cops utterly stupid, morally wrong.” [22:58]
• Panel Reaction:
  • Ben Weider and Paul Rykoff debate the rare nature of this GOP revolt, emphasizing primary pressure and the difficult-to-defend optics.
  • Trump remains unrepentant:

    “...we think that those people, we think that anybody involved in that process should partake. And you’re talking about peanuts compared to the value. It destroyed the lives of many, many people.” —Donald Trump [26:20]

• Michael Feinberg’s Warning:
  • Argues Trump is intentionally incentivizing future anti-government action:

  “This is a green light to every insurrectionist…do bad things and know that you will be pardoned and you will even get paid for it.” [27:14]

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5. Moral Collapse and Legal Implications

[32:25] - [36:25]

• Department of Justice Complicity:
  • Acting AG Todd Blanche’s defense of the fund:

    “People that hurt police get money all the time.” —Todd Blanche [32:25]

  • Nicolle Wallace:

    “There is no more pretense of morality. There is no more pretense that the Department is on the side of justice.”

• Paul Rykoff on Institutional Ruin:

  “…this is morally despicable. These people have a black hole where their ethical compass should be…” [33:37]

• Ben Weider on Legal Maneuvering:
  • Trump admin used settlements and end-arounds assuming GOP inaction; current pushback is “remarkable” but unproven in concrete terms.

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6. Congressional Discord: Iran War and GOP Fracture

[37:52] - [41:51]

• Rep. Pat Ryan on Iran War Vote:

  “It is pathetic. They use this procedural argument and every American should just be absolutely outraged about this. It's a disgrace.” —Pat Ryan [38:23]

• Panel Analysis:
  • The war in Iran is splitting the party; Gabbard’s resignation is emblematic of the rift among “anti-regime change” figures.
  • Nicolle Wallace: notes GOP shrinking as moderates are ousted (“shrinking by the week” [40:54])
  • Michael Feinberg: points out possibility for independent or third-party movement, referencing Massie’s cross-party appeal.

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7. Doubt about GOP Resolve

[41:58]

• Paul Rykoff’s Skepticism:

  “…all we’ve got right now are, to use a word I hate, vibes. We don’t have concrete actions. There haven’t been votes on any of these things. There’s been rhetorical pushbacks. There’s been rumors leaking out of closed sessions.” [41:58]

  • Expresses longstanding frustration about lack of action from those who could check Trump.

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8. Legal Defeat for Trump DOJ

[42:58] - [44:38]

• Federal Judge Rebukes DOJ:
  • Judge Crenshaw throws out prosecution of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, calling it “an abuse of prosecuting power.”
  • The ruling singles out AG Blanche for engineering the prosecution “to justify the executive branch’s decision to remove him to El Salvador.”
  • Highlights broader trend of using federal power for political vengeance.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• Tulsi Gabbard on Iran War:

  “A war with Iran would make the war in Iraq look like a cakewalk.” —Tulsi Gabbard [02:08]

• John Brennan on Gabbard’s Tenure:

  “…her record has something of questionable integrity as well as competence.” —Brennan [05:15]

• Sen. Thom Tillis on Trump Fund:

  “I think it’s stupid on stilts.” —Tillis [21:26]

• Mitch McConnell on Fund:

  “…slush fund to pay people who assault cops utterly stupid, morally wrong. Take your pick.” —McConnell [22:58]

• Donald Trump defending fund:

  “…we think that those people, we think that anybody involved in that process should partake...” —Trump [26:20]

• Paul Rykoff, on Trump’s effect on officials:

  “…they exhibit a willingness to shed their prior principles and prior beliefs in the way that an aging snake would get rid of rough skin.” [15:20]

• Acting AG Todd Blanche:

  “People that hurt police get money all the time.” [32:25]

• Paul Rykoff, summing up the moment:

  “These people have a black hole where their ethical compass should be, both as individuals and as stewards of the American nation.” [33:37]

• Rep. Pat Ryan on Iran war vote:

  “It is pathetic. ... It’s a disgrace.” —Rep. Pat Ryan [38:23]

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Memorable Moments

• Tulsi Gabbard’s tangled testimony before Congress [06:52–07:54]
• Panel calling out Marco Rubio’s lack of “spine” [10:21]
• Open GOP revolt over the “slush fund” [21:26–23:49]
• Trump’s odd defense of payouts to January 6th defendants [26:20]
• Reporting on criminally convicted insurrectionist using expected payout to silence further crimes [28:38]
• DOJ, under Todd Blanche, called out by a federal judge for “vindictive” prosecution [42:58]

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Key Takeaways

• Gabbard’s legacy as DNI is deeply controversial: sidelined on policy, partisan in office, and ultimately isolated.
• Intelligence community further politicized: Analysis suggests severe damage to nonpartisan functions.
• GOP’s rare break with Trump may be both sign of limits and fragility: Outrage over slush fund is real but still mainly rhetorical.
• Iran war and foreign policy splinter the right: Moderates and anti-war voices ousted or resigning, potential for independent candidacies.
• legal setbacks compound political controversies: DOJ under Trump faces judicial rebuke for vindictive prosecutions.
• Skepticism remains about GOP follow-through: Panel doubts Republicans will move from words to meaningful action.

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For Listeners

This episode offers a comprehensive, unflinching look at the deepening cracks in the Trump administration’s cabinet, the Republican Party’s internal dissension, and the profound consequences of the politicization of national security. The panel’s tone is direct, at times incredulous, and squarely focused on exposing the ongoing risks to the republic posed by present decisions at the highest levels of government.

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Transcript

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[Nicole Wallace]

Hi there everyone. Happy Friday. It's four o'clock in New York. We come on the air with the breaking news that Donald Trump's Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, is resigning. In her resignation letter, Gabbard writes that she is stepping down in the wake of her husband being diagnosed with a rare form of bone cancer. She writes that her last day will be June 30th. We wish her husband every good health outlet outcome and her family all the best during a supremely challenging time. However, as a public servant who chose to serve in Donald Trump's Cabinet, her tenure in his administration will be defined by two one, being sidelined as the administration plunged the nation into a war with Iran, and 2 the deep politicization of the intelligence community in the pursuit of Donald Trump's political aims. As a veteran, Gabbard cut her teeth her political teeth opposing the wars in the Middle east as recently as 2019. Here's what she had to say about the prospect of war with Iran.

[Tulsi Gabbard]

When we talk about a potential war with Iran, which is looking like we are walking very dangerously down that path, what I think is important for the American people to know is that a war with Iran would make the war in Iraq look like a cakewalk. The devastation and the cost would be far greater than anything we've ever experienced before

[Nicole Wallace]

fast forward seven years until C. Gabbard finds herself awkwardly defending a war she spent years very publicly opposing. Her written testimony to Congress back in March essentially knocks down one of Donald Trump's stated reasons for the war, that Iran was not rebuilding its nuclear enrichment program. Since the strikes of 2025, Donald Trump had at points said that Iran was, quote, two weeks away from having a nuclear weapon. So the gap between what the administration said and the views of the war, skeptical, very large and significant chunks of the MAGA coalition that Gabbard had claimed to belong to for so long was so gaping, so vast, that her chief deputy, her close political ally Joe Kent, resigned over Trump's decision to go to war with Iran. New York Times reports this, quote, she was seldom seen in the room when Trump made important national security moves and was widely viewed within the administration and by lawmakers in Congress as not a key member of the President's national security team. But even if sidelined on national security issues, as Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard brought her office and her resources to bear on chasing down some of Donald Trump's wildest conspiracy theories and grievances. And she did that with fervor. She claimed a, quote, treasonous conspiracy of Obama era administration officials, including our colleague Ms. Now senior national security and intelligence analyst, the former director of the CIA, John Brennan. She said that conspiracy was in service of undermining Donald Trump. In recent months, she was seen trying to investigate Donald Trump's baseless election fraud claim. She even showed up at an FBI raid of an elections office in Fulton County, Georgia. That raid itself was an extraordinary event, but it was made all the more stunning and unprecedented by the fact that the dni, Tulsi Gabbard was there on location. Resources told the New York Times that Tulsi Gabbard put the FBI agents who conducted that raid on the phone with Donald Trump. Gabbard denied that Trump made any orders or asked any questions when it came to her presence at the raid. She said she was sent there by Donald Trump himself. That breaking news of the resignation of DNI Tulsi Gabbard is where we start today with the aforementioned former Director of the CIA, our senior national security and intelligence analyst, John Brennan. Also joining us, former assistant Special Agent in charge at the FBI, our national security and intelligence analyst, Michael Feinberg. Director Brennan, your thoughts first on this resignation from Tulsi Gabbard.

[John Brennan]

Well, first of all, Nicole, as you pointed out, it's tragic news about the diagnosis of Tulsi Gabbard's husband. And we wish them both the best as they deal with this health challenge. But I think it's been quite clear that the record of Tulsi Gabbard's leadership of the community has something of questionable integrity as well as competence. She didn't have the experience when she was nominated to be the Director of National Intelligence, which is a very important and complex job in terms of the orchestration of those 18 intelligence agencies. As you pointed out, her engagement on the ground in Georgia on election related matters and her specious referrals to the Department of Justice about this broad conspiracy. And also, I think there was just some questions about whether or not she was engaged in any of the key foreign policy and national security matters in this administration. And so it's quite clear that CIA Director John Ratcliffe has had the inside track in terms of access to the White House and access to Donald Trump. And Tulsi Gabbard, I think, was looking for a role. But again, I don't think she ever clearly understood what the statutory requirements and obligations are of the Director of National Intelligence. And again, she comported herself, I think, in a highly partisan and a very unfortunate, unfortunate counterproductive manner in terms of what was good for national security.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, and on that point of her, her partisanship in this job. Let me show you how she responded to questions from Senator Warner.

[Senator Warner]

You were present on the scene. Are the photos of you on the scene?

[Tulsi Gabbard]

I was at Fulton county, sir, at the request of the president and to work with the FBI to observe this action that had long been awaited. I was not aware of what was in the warrant or was not in the warrant.

[Senator Warner]

And what was the president's specific request for you to go to? What was the specific request that you made by the president for you to show up in Fulton county to go

[Tulsi Gabbard]

and observe the FBI's activities on this issue.

[Senator Warner]

So why look at the fort your question served. Do you have the answer why the president was knowing about an affidavit before it was even served?

[Tulsi Gabbard]

I'm not aware that the president knew about an affidavit before it was served.

[Senator Warner]

Then why was he sending you to Fulton County?

[Tulsi Gabbard]

This occurred the day that the FBI had it approved, their warrant approved by a local judge, and they began to execute this address your question, sir, about the foreign nexus question in order for us to better understand the vulnerabilities in our election systems that may exist today as we look to 2026.

[Nicole Wallace]

Just an absolute mosh pit of an answer there under oath before Congress, I want to Try to dissect it as part of her important legacy. To your point, Director Brennan, of what she plunged the intelligence community into, her answer under oath there is that she was there to observe the FBI's activities. What is the history of the intelligence agencies, a person who sits atop them observing domestic law enforcement operations?

[John Brennan]

Well, I think she was flailing around to respond to Senator Warren's question because there was no good reason for her to be there. There is a responsibility of the Director of National Intelligence to provide an assessment about any type of foreign interference in our elections. And this is an outgrowth of what the Russians did in 2016 and in other years. But there's absolutely no reason why a Director of National Intelligence should be on the ground with FBI agents and others. This is wholly inconsistent with her respons responsibilities and obligations. And again, which I think because of these actions that Tulsi Gabbard is involved in, as well as previous DNIs who are highly partisan, like Rich Richard Cornell, even John Radcliffe when he was dni, I think it really has brought great discredit to the Office of the Director of National Intelligence. But again, what she has done, I think, has further debased, I think, the importance and the integrity of that office.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, Michael Feinberg, importantly, Marco Rubio, as the Republican head of the Senate Intelligence Community, ran these questions to the ground. And he seems to be Donald Trump's Cabinet official in the best standing. If there really were, she testified to, quote, questions, sir, about the foreign nexus questions in order for us to better understand the vulnerabilities in our election systems that may exist today as we look to 2026, literally, the, the person in Congress who ran those issues to the ground, if John Durham is no longer a credible source, or Chris Krebs or Bill Barr is Marco Rubio, who wrote the definitive Senate report on foreign interference in the 2016 election. I guess I ask you again, what happens to an agency when the person atop it can't answer questions under oath about what she was doing at an FBI raid of an election office?

[Paul Rykoff]

Well, you've pointed out a real irony in this entire situation, which is we actually have reams of data analysis and conclusions about what foreign interference looks like in an American election. It was run to the ground by agencies that were definitely nonpartisan, headed by storied career professionals like Director Brennan himself. But we have cast their conclusions and the lessons learned to the four winds simply because Donald Trump is afraid they reflect poorly on his 2016 victory. So we've gotten rid of the best analysis we have on foreign influence in a United States election. And now in this perverted power play, totally at odds with the norms of rule of law and our Constitution, you have individuals like Tulsi Gabbard manufacturing conspiracies for which there is no evidence whatsoever in what is probably an effort to undermine the objectivity of elections going forward, that may hurt Donald Trump's standing. As for Marco Rubio's ability to push back against this, that would imply that Marco Rubio has the leverage of a normal human being with a spine where he could plant his feet and do such pushing back. And so far since inauguration, we have not seen any evidence of that particular vertebrae.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, I guess I always raise his role as the chair of the committee that wrote really the most scathing report. I mean, I may be among the handful of humans who read both Mueller Volume 1 and the Senate Intelligence Committee's report. And Rubio replaces, I think it's Richard Burr who has to leave for some ethics scandals back when Republicans could actually be ensnared in ethics scandals. That's how long ago it was. And when Rubio takes over, I mean, he gives these public statements about how it is. I think he calls it the most exhaustive and the most comprehensive investigation into the origins of the Russian investigation. And he holds himself out as a person who best understands Russia's attack on the 2016 election. It's amazing to me that, that he can't reach across the room and, you know, Donald Trump is now awash in conspiracies, just, just like, move on to, to number 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, or 700. The idea that this still animates the person that runs the intelligence agency that sits atop of all the other intelligence agencies feels like a story that best illustrates not just the insanity, but the cognitive dissonance inside this Cabinet.

[John Brennan]

Director Brennan, Marco Rubio certainly knows better, and he stood fully behind and endorsed the intelligence community assessment that, as Michael said, clearly exposed the Russian interference in 2016 election on behalf of Donald Trump. But it's clear that individuals within the administration who surround Donald Trump are unwilling to speak out and speak up. And it seems like even in private, they are unwilling to do that, which is why we continue to go down these roads of the conspiracy theories as well. Just abuse, I think, of their roles and responsibilities. And so whether you look at a Tulsi Gabbard or you look at Pete Hegseth, you look at individuals who really don't have that experience and the competence that are needed at the lead of these very important departments and agencies. And then you have a Donald Trump who continues to insist on that it's his way or the highway. You need people like in the first Trump administration who stood up to him, the Jim Mattis's, the John Kellys and others. You don't have that in this administration. And as long as you don' have that in the Republican leadership in Congress. And as bad as things might be now, I really fear for what we're going to see over the next two and a half years.

[Nicole Wallace]

Things were most awkward Michael Feinberg for Tulsi Gabbard when her deputy quit over Donald Trump's decision to go to war with Iran. And he quit. He wrote a letter. He appeared on Tucker Carlson's podcast program. She wasn't really in the room. And in that really detailed tick tock from the New York Times journalists Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan, she is, I think, noted absent. And it's noticeable. You know, Rackliffe's there, Rubio's there, Vance. I don't think Vance is there. He's out of the country. But most of the other senior national security officials are at the table. Just talk about how completely opposed to everything she'd ever said publicly about anything the war in Iran was.

[Paul Rykoff]

Yeah, I mean, look, her proffered reason for leaving the Democratic Party at one point was that she thought it was led by baby boomer generation, individuals with no firsthand experience of war, who were too eager to use the military to solve conflicts that she thought could have been avoided or ameliorated the other way. But as we've seen repeatedly, for example, with JD Vance or as we just discussed with Marco Rubio, Donald Trump is almost a force of nature in that as he draws people into his orbit, they exhibit a willingness to shed their prior principles and prior beliefs in the way that an aging snake would get rid of rough skin. So once she signed on to be a member of this cabinet, you know, this was predictable. There are very few people this time around in the Trump administration whose positions are not completely protean, whose principles are not completely malleable. And what amazes me, and I think it's something all three of us have remarked on at points in the past, is that none of these people last. They all get thrown out once they are no longer useful. And the very public sacrifice of their integrity, the abandonment of their principles, the willingness to elid their beliefs, is all that remains after them when their reputation is gone. Let's not forget the comments Marco Rubio made about Donald Trump during the primary leading up to 2016. He I don't quite know how to phrase this on family television. He called Donald Trump's manhood into question at one point based on the size of his hands.

[Nicole Wallace]

Debate. Yes, yes.

[Paul Rykoff]

J.D. vance, literally without hyperbole, compared Donald Trump to Hitler. Tulsi Gabbard was a Democrat who fervently believed against going to war in Iran. Todd Blanche took an oath to the Constitution and worked as a federal prosecutor protecting the country. I don't know what remains of the people these individuals once were at this point.

[Nicole Wallace]

Right? Who? Trump? As you said, every story ends exactly the same way, with an unceremonious dismissal or in this case, a resignation for a family medical crisis. But nobody comes out as good as or better than they went in. On this breaking news, we are grateful to you Director John Brennan for joining us and starting us off. Michael Feinberg sticks around a little bit longer. When we come back, a rare, exceedingly rare rebuke from the normally compliant Republican Party over Donald Trump's slush fund for his supporters and allies will bring you that news and ask if we should believe our our eyes as we watch this. Plus, as Americans prepare to take a little Memorial Day weekend break, Donald Trump's economy is making it more and more difficult to afford to travel and enjoy that break. And later in the broadcast, Stephen Colbert says his final goodbye. And Donald Trump still can't get over it. We'll show you how Colbert turned the lights off the show last night. You don't want to miss that. We'll get to all that and much more when Deadly and White House continues. After a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

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[Nicole Wallace]

Did Republicans call 1-800-dial- a spine with Donald Trump pushing a slush fund that could hand out six figure payouts to the very people who sent lawmakers into hiding and literally running for their lives on January 6, 2021, Republicans are on the verge of saying something they haven't said to Donald Trump much in the last 10 years. No. Or nyet. Here's just some of the reaction on Capitol Hill. Listen to outgoing Senator Thom Tillis.

[Senator Thom Tillis]

I think it's stupid on stilts.

[Ben Weider]

Why?

[Senator Thom Tillis]

Because it will invariably put us in a position where your taxpayer dollars and my taxpayer dollars could potentially compensate someone who assaulted a police officer, admitted their guilt, got convicted, got pardoned, and now we're going to pay them for that. That's absurd. The American people are going to reject this out of hand.

[Nicole Wallace]

Wow. Now do the ballroom and the arch. That was Thom Tillis. Here's Wisconsin Senator Ron Johnson. He called the timing of the announcement of the fund a, quote, galactic blunder. The New York Times is reporting this about what happened behind closed doors when Acting Attorney General Todd Blanche met with Senate Republicans on Thursday to defend this political stink bomb, quote, what unfolded in an ornate room just off the Senate floor Thursday morning. It was a two hour blow up in which dozens of Republican senators vented their anger and concern about the president's fund at Blanche. They questioned its legal basis, whom it would pay and how the process would work. And they made it clear they wanted no part of the plan. Former Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell said this, quote, so the nation's top law enforcement official is asking for a slush fund to pay people who assault cops utterly stupid, morally wrong. Take your pick. End quote. I mean, this isn't the first, quote, utterly stupid or morally wrong decision Mitch McConnell has had to make with regards to Donald Trump. Trump went down the escalators at Trump Tower 11 years ago. At any point in those 11 years, McConnell might have stood up to him. We know he privately described Donald Trump as a, quote, despicable person. But McConnell and the rest of the Republican Party wouldn't be here now if they'd spoken up before this news cycle with Donald Trump now literally asking them to sign off on and commit money to paying out the people who threatened to kill all of them. And Mike Pence on January 6, they had decided any other moment before this week to hold him accountable for January 6th and voted to impeach and convict him during his trial in the Senate. Back when Mitch McConnell said this,

[John Brennan]

there's no question, none, that President Trump is practically and morally responsible for provoking the events of the day.

[Michael Feinberg]

No question about it.

[Nicole Wallace]

I want to bring in Washington correspondent for the Los Angeles Times, Ben Weider. And joining me at the table, Paul Rykoff. He's the host of the Independent Americans podcast. He is the founder and CE Independent Veterans of America. Michael Feinberg's still here. Ben, what do you think?

[Ben Weider]

I mean, I think, you know, I think if we're thinking about why, why this moment, why now? I mean, certainly, you know, I don't think you can find very many people outside of, you know, President Trump and Todd Blanche who are defending this IRS slush fund. But, you know, the politics are important to consider. On the one hand, you know, we've seen in recent weeks the tremendous power that Donald Trump still wields in Republican primaries. You know, Senator Bill Cassidy, Representative Tom Massie, both ousted after bitter primary fights in which Trump was adamantly opposed to them. But we also know that the party is extremely worried about their prospects in November. The backdrop is we have a very unpopular war in Iran. We have the economic impact of that. And then this IRS slush fund is a very, very hard thing to defend to voters. You know, how do you defend to voters that your taxpayer money should go to someone who is convicted of crime? So in some of the cases of some of these January 6th protest protesters have been subsequently convicted of other crimes after being pardoned. It's a very, very hard sell. And I think the political calculus and the real challenges that Trump's decisions, which seem from a political perspective to be driven more in many cases by vengeance than any real grand political strategy, are causing some Republicans to say, wait a second, maybe it's time for us to actually step up and oppose something.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah. I mean, Paul Rykov, I think the problem is that there's a political calculation at all. It should just be, wtf, this is wrong. Next request. Because the thing about Trump is. And this has always boggled my mind about the fear that Republicans have. He'll move on and ask for something else next week. I mean, this is like, he doesn't stay mad. He just asks for something else. Ludicrous. And here he is. I mean, the thing with the fund, too, is that he doesn't think there's anything wrong with it. He thinks it's too small. Listen,

[Donald Trump]

you know, it was the most violent thing I've ever seen in politics, what they did. And yet if I say, oh, let's look at this one or that one, they say weaponization. Weaponization. What they did in terms of weaponization will never be allowed to happen in this country again. So we think that those people, we think that anybody involved in that process should partake. And you're talking about peanuts compared to the value. It destroyed the lives of many, many people.

[Nicole Wallace]

So it was the most violent thing. I think he's talking about the prosecutions of him. I played the sound of Mitch McConnell basically referring him for criminal prosecution. That's essentially a criminal referral. If he'd done that on paper, would have been asking the Department of Justice to investigate him. Describes him as practically and morally responsible for the violence on January 6th.

[Michael Feinberg]

So it's memorial Day weekend, where we honor the integrity, the sacrifice, the honor of generations of Americans who step forward. And a couple days before that, he wants to provide compensation. We shouldn't even call it compensation, a payout for people who violently attack the government, domestic terrorists who show the opposite of honor, integrity, and courage. It's despicable. It's overwhelmingly unpopular. It's about time Republicans stepped up and drew a line, and hopefully that'll give them momentum on things like Iran, Cuba. But I also think there's another part of this. The more desperate he becomes, the more dangerous he becomes. And I don't think this is accidental. I think this is strategic. I think he wants to incentivize people to stand up and oppose the government, to attack government sites. The elections be a great focal point coming up in just a couple weeks, and I've called it Plan C. Plan A, if he wants to disrupt the elections, is the military, and they're likely to say no. Plan B would be ice. Well, we don't know where that's gonna go. This is Plan C. This is the backup plan. This is a green light to every insurrectionist and everyone who wants to stand with Trump and against the evil forces that he conspires. This gives them a green light to do bad things and know that you will be pardoned and you will even get paid for it. So I think we have to be really mindful of the fact that he is. He knows that the midterms are a circuit breaker. He knows they will hold him accountable. And things like this are not accidental. They're quite intentional. Even if they fail, the signal he's sending with it is very important.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, let me just press you on that because people have said this for a couple days and I just want to put out some reporting from NPR because they have heard this, right? So the convicted insurrectionist who was pardoned and then went on to molest children and also be charged, convicted and sentenced to life in prison, told his child victim of molestation to keep quiet about being molested because he was coming into a lot of money restitution from Donald Trump for January 6th. And so I guess instead of debating whether or not that is the plan, that is what the insurrectionists have heard, right?

[Michael Feinberg]

I mean, it's okay. The president wants you on his side. The president considers you a victim. And it kind of reminds me of, I don't know, maybe like when Saddam Hussein let everybody out of prison because they would disrupt things right before he knew the Americans were going to attack. Right. This is what you do. You pick the worst of the worst, the people who are the most desperate, the people who are most desp, and you give them a green light to do bad things. And he's been doing that throughout, every time he's been in office, since 11 years ago when he came down that escalator. And I think it's really, really important that we think strategically about how to combat that, not just dismiss it as a whim of something that Trump does and also recognize Republicans have actually stopped him on something that's really, really important. They haven't stopped him on Iran, they didn't stop him on Venezuela. And now this is so lame that

[Nicole Wallace]

the bar is so low, but now

[Michael Feinberg]

we need them to potentially stop him on Cuba because it is Memorial Day weekend and they want to make more veterans, they want to put more people in Arlington and they're already focused on Cuba. There's an aircraft carrier down there. They're sending all the messaging and they didn't stop him on Iran, they didn't stop him on Venezuela, and hopefully they can have a war powers vote on Cuba before he actually hits Cuba. That would be nice.

[Nicole Wallace]

I want to bring Michael Feinberg in on Todd Blanche's performance in cleanup if Pam Bondi was fired in part for not turning around acknowledging the January 6th or the Epstein survivors. It will be interesting to see what happens to Todd Blanche, who defended the fund by saying lots of people get money for beating up cops. I'll give you two minutes to think about that one. Michael Feinberg we will all be right back.

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[Nicole Wallace]

Michael I had to read this two times and then watch it because I had to see it with my own eyes. But when CNN asked Todd Blanche, the country's acting attorney general, whether he would support individuals who hurt police officers receiving taxpayer dollars, he said this quote, people that hurt police get money all the time. End quote. It's a window into how spun into the web of immorality and revenge. Todd Blanche is a top doj. And when we cover the tension between the department and what it has always been and what it is now, we should always remember this is someone willing to say, quote, people who hurt cops get money all the time. There is no more pretense of morality. There is no more pretense that the Department is on the side of justice. There is no pretense that it is there to do anything, anything other than, you know, bandage up the hurt. Boo. Boo. Feelings of Donald Trump over losing in 2020. Yeah.

[Paul Rykoff]

There was another moment at the hearing that I think was actually the real linchpin that explains all of this. And I'm going to take a slightly circuitous way to get there. But earlier this week, Mel Brooks announced that he was giving away all of his scripts, ephemera, sketch ideas to a comedy archive. And he's functionally stepping away after his next movie is, near as we can tell. And a lot of us who love film wondering, will we ever laugh as hard again as we did at the Producers or maybe Young Frankenstein? And I was assuaged in that concern when Todd Blanche, with a straight face, said he was there at the Senate as the acting Attorney General, not Donald Trump's personal attorney. So the fact that he was willing, the fact that he had to articulate that, even though everybody knows it's not true, really goes to how obscene and obnoxious his statement about people getting money who beat up cops all the time really was. This is a party that for my whole time when I was a supporter of it, and I imagine this is true for you as well. Nicole prided itself on being the party of law and order, on being the party that backed the blue, on being the party whose supporters had bumper stickers of the thin blue line across the American flag. And we have gotten to a point now where, because Donald Trump needs to rewrite history to escape his culpability for the first real insurrection, to try and stop the peaceful transfer of power, we have an attorney general, a sycophant with a suite in the RFK building, who is saying not only is it okay to assault federal police officers who are protecting our democratic process, but it's okay to give them a payout for their troubles as well. I opened this with a joke about Mel Brooks, but, like, let's be clear, this is morally despicable. These people have a black hole where their ethical compass should be, both as individuals and as stewards of the American nation. That this is even being discussed would have our founders rolling in their graves.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah. And, Ben, I guess what makes this news cycle different from everyone over the last nine years is that it's Republicans saying that, not me.

[Ben Weider]

Yeah. I think, you know, I think it is striking. And I think, you know, this isn't the only instance in which you're seeing some pushback as well. I mean, there's pushback about the situation with Iran as well. I think there's and as I said before, I think there's a political landscape, but also to think about this IRS slush fund. Remember, what happened here was Trump and his sons dismissed the lawsuit and struck this deal. And there was an end around to some extent of the judicial process that was playing out. A judge that might not have signed off on such a deal. I spoke with the lawyer that was cited as having negotiated the settlement. That was the precedent that Todd Blanche cited in this case. And at every point in that process, they had a judge who signed off on it. And I think that deal was made with the IRS with the assumption that Congress would not step up and would not oppose it because in so many other instances in these first two years of the Trump presidency, they just have not. And so I think this is a really remarkable, striking moment. And I wonder if we'll continue to see this. I mean, we're already seeing other signs of it, right?

[Nicole Wallace]

Like that's the question. That's why this matters. Is it the end of the beginning or the beginning of the end? Ben Weider, thank you for joining us. Michael and Paul, stick around a little bit longer to banter about that question. When it comes to the war in Iran, don't go anywhere.

[Congressman Pat Ryan]

These chicken hawk are going to send us home for Memorial Day weekend where I'm going to honor my fellow veterans that I serve or 27 months in combat with. And they are going to not even give an up or down vote on continuing this war almost three months in while Americans are paying almost $5 a gallon at the pump. It is pathetic. They use this procedural argument and every American should just be absolutely outraged about this. It's a disgrace.

[Nicole Wallace]

We need to get him on a podcast so we don't have to do all that bleeping. That was Democratic Congressman Pat Ryan last night visibly outraged. But but didn't seem too surprised because naturally, what do House Republican leaders do when they are afraid of being rebuked by members of their own party over Donald Trump's increasingly unpopular and unaffordable agenda, including the war in Iran? Well, they called the whole thing off. Last night. House Republicans scrapped the war powers vote. It was meant to force Donald Trump to withdraw from the war in Iran or at least try to get approval from Congress for it. After, as the New York Times puts it, quote, it became clear they the Republicans lack the votes to defeat the measure. More from that report, quote, the decision to shelve the War Powers Resolution came after Republicans had lost control of the floor during an earlier unrelated vote, with several of their members defecting and several more absent. As the House chamber descended into chaos, leaders wary of risking another public defeat on a far more politically consequential vote, abruptly scrapped the Iran war measure. We're back with Paul and Michael. Michael, this is perhaps one of the biggest political stories in the second Trump term, that Trump doesn't have the political juice to continue to wage war in Iran.

[Michael Feinberg]

I think you're right. Pat Ryan's a friend of mine and he speaks for so many people. He also is a West Point grad, a combat veteran. He represents West Point, it's in his congressional district, and he understands what he's talking about. And I think he's touching on something that a lot of Americans feel, especially veterans feel right now that there's a generation of chicken hawks that are sending other people's kids to die all over again. And I think Iran has become a dividing point, especially within the Republican Party, especially within the veterans and national security community, with people like in the manosphere, the podcasters like Joe Rogan and Sean Ryan. But I also want to say that who are out. Who are out, they're done. They said we're done. That's it. He said, no regime change wars. And now Tulsi Gabbard's out.

[Ben Weider]

Who?

[Michael Feinberg]

Her entire platform. She said no regime change war is more than any politician I've ever seen in the last two decades. Right.

[Nicole Wallace]

Other than J.D. vance.

[Senator Thom Tillis]

Yeah.

[Michael Feinberg]

But Congress is also the dog chasing the car because Iran's already underway. The question is, can they stop Cuba? Because he said Cuba's next. They're communicating it, you know, like there's probably an over under on the polymarket now, whether he does it before or after July 4th. But they didn't stop him on Venezuela, they didn't stop him on Iran. They have an opportunity to stop him before he starts combat with a new country. And Cuba is that dividing line. I think we have to try to push that to the forefront and see where Republicans stand on that, because in some ways, Iran's already underway.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, the thing that people say, and they point to Indiana and they point to Cassidy Negus Massey and say, well, he's still really powerful in the Republican Party. You can't say that without pointing out how small the Republican Party is right now. It's shrinking by the week.

[Michael Feinberg]

Yeah, I think Massey's really, really important. I've been talking about this a lot this week. I mean, he just carved out a whole new lane for a presidential campaign just by running against Iran, against the tariffs, in favor of releasing the Epstein files, and against Trump. That's a presidential platform that's pretty popular

[Nicole Wallace]

in either party, in either party or

[Michael Feinberg]

no party at all. He could also run as an independent and galvanize a lot of people. And he's worked across the line with Ro Khanna and others. So something's happening here whether the movement is gonna be within the Republican Party to challenge Trump and whoever his successor is if he leaves power or to actually break away. And they're representing a majority of the country that is against all those things, but also doesn't wanna go to the Democrats. 45% of the country is independent and unaffiliated. And they're looking for voices who represent that angry majority, especially on national security and regime change, wars.

[Nicole Wallace]

It's amazing how wide open this question of national security is right now. Michael Feinberg.

[Paul Rykoff]

Yeah, I'll be honest. I'm not quite as ready as you two to put up the bunting and celebrate at the Republicans newfound discovery of integrity. And it's fine because all we've got right now are, to use a word, I hate vibes. We don't have concrete actions. There haven't been votes on any of these things. There's been rhetorical pushbacks. There's been rumors leaking out of closed sessions. And when push comes to shove, the Republican voters have not supported the individuals who've pushed back. And the individuals who claim to push back when the moment of crisis comes, don't. Mitch McConnell could have stopped all of this in that speech you played earlier and did it. So I'm not confident that Republicans are actually gonna have the mettle to follow through on this.

[Nicole Wallace]

I'm with you. I appreciate the gentle blowback. That's why you're here. Michael Feinberg, Paul Reichof, thank you both for being here today. Have a great weekend. After the break, a huge legal defeat for Donald J. Trump, Todd Blanch and DOJ in one of their most closely watched deportation cases. We'll bring you that breaking news next. It is a seismic legal rebuke of the Trump administration. A federal judge has thrown out the criminal case against Kilmar Abrego Garcia. He's the Maryland man who was wrongfully deported to El Salvador. That judge calling it, quote, an abuse of prosecuting power, end quote. The government had charged Abrego Garcia with human smuggling after the government was forced to bring him back from El Salvador. Brego Garcia was challenging those charges by the Department of Justice on the grounds that the charges were vindictive. U.S. district Judge Waverly Crenshaw agreed. The ruling names Acting Attorney General Todd Blanche 9, 29 times and says this, quote, blanche started the investigation to implicate Abrego. He did so to justify the executive branch's decision to remove him to El Salvador. The evidence before this court sadly reflects an abuse of prosecuting power. The objective evidence here shows that absent Abrego's successful lawsuit challenging his removal to El Salvador, the government would not have brought this prosecution. End quote. When we come back, how Donald Trump is dismissing the concerns of the American people this holiday weekend. Much more news ahead. Don't go anywhere.

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