“Do you think we’re babies?”

Summary

Deadline: White House – Episode “Do You Think We’re Babies?” Summary

Release Date: July 29, 2025
Host: Nicolle Wallace, MSNBC

In this compelling episode of Deadline: White House, host Nicolle Wallace delves deep into the swirling controversies surrounding former President Donald Trump’s connections with Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell, alongside a tragic mass shooting in Manhattan and the ongoing immigration enforcement debates in New York City.

1. Donald Trump’s Statements on Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell

The episode opens with Nicolle Wallace addressing Donald Trump’s recent comments regarding his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. Trump controversially claimed, “I never went to the island” and alleged that Epstein was “stealing people that work for me” from his Mar-a-Lago spa ([03:28]). This assertion has raised numerous questions about the nature and duration of their association.

Sam Stein highlights that Trump’s evasiveness and gaslighting about the Epstein case are undermining his credibility. Trump’s claims about not visiting Epstein’s island and his allegations of Epstein poaching his staff are scrutinized for inconsistencies and lack of supporting evidence.

2. Panel Discussion: Dissecting Trump’s Claims

Joining Wallace are investigative journalist Tara Palmieri, MSNBC contributor Sam Stein, and former Democratic senator and political analyst Claire McCaskill. The panel dissects Trump’s narrative, uncovering discrepancies in his timeline of events and questioning his sincerity.

Tara Palmieri challenges Trump’s account, stating, “The timeline doesn’t add up, and it doesn’t make any sense at all” ([11:42]). She provides evidence that Trump and Epstein maintained a relationship until a fallout in 2004 over real estate disputes, contradicting Trump's claims of severed ties due to Epstein being a "creep."

Claire McCaskill emphasizes the complexity of the situation, noting, “We are all going through it together right now” ([89:02]), and underscores the need for transparency and accountability from the Trump administration.

3. The Potential Pardon of Ghislaine Maxwell

The conversation shifts to Ghislaine Maxwell, Epstein’s longtime associate and convicted sex trafficker. Sam Stein discusses the possibility of Trump granting her clemency, despite her conviction. Tara Palmieri elaborates on Maxwell’s role in procuring young women for Epstein, stating, “She was involved in the sexual pedophilia as well” ([13:18]).

Senator Dick Durbin joins the discussion later in the episode, expressing deep concerns about the Trump administration’s intentions. He asserts, “She’s serving 20 years for human trafficking and the exploitation of children” ([72:07]) and warns that pardoning Maxwell “will pay a heavy price for it with the American people” ([73:55]).

4. Legal and Political Implications

The episode further explores the legal battles surrounding Trump’s actions. Andrew Weissman and Chris O’Leary provide insights into the Department of Justice’s questionable moves, including attempts to influence judicial processes and undermine the rule of law. They critique the administration’s handling of Maxwell’s case and the broader implications for American democracy.

5. Mass Shooting in Midtown Manhattan

Transitioning from political scandals, Wallace covers a tragic mass shooting at a New York City office building. Mark Santilla, MSNBC investigative correspondent, and retired FBI agent Chris O’Leary provide a detailed account of the incident, including the victims and the perpetrator’s background.

The gunman, identified as Shane Tamura, targeted the NFL headquarters before taking his own life. Investigators are exploring motives, including claims of Tamura suffering from a degenerative brain disease, CTE ([37:09]). The discussion highlights the urgent need for measures to prevent such tragedies, emphasizing mental health and gun control reforms.

6. Immigration Enforcement in New York City

The latter part of the episode shifts focus to the alarming rise in immigration enforcement in NYC. Jacob Soboroff, an NBC reporter, provides firsthand accounts of ICE detaining undocumented immigrants outside immigration courts ([52:34]). Nicolle Wallace and Claire McCaskill discuss the violation of due process rights and the ethical implications of mass deportations.

Senator Dick Durbin critiques the Trump administration’s aggressive immigration policies, stating, “This is a situation that's getting worse by the day for this president” ([76:51]). The panel debates the legal challenges and the impact on immigrant communities, emphasizing the need for humane and lawful immigration practices.

7. The Role of Comedy in Political Discourse

In an insightful segment, Wallace explores how late-night comedians and satirists are confronting Trump over the Epstein scandal. Dominic Patten and Charlie Sykes discuss the cultural shift where humor becomes a tool for political accountability. Wallace remarks, “Trump wants people to be in awe of him. He wants people to be afraid of him. He does not want to be the butt of jokes” ([82:12]), highlighting the growing defiance among comedians against Trump’s narratives.

8. Conclusion: The Quest for Transparency and Justice

As the episode concludes, Wallace emphasizes the persistent quest for truth and justice. The discussions underscore the critical need for transparency from the Trump administration regarding Epstein’s files and the broader implications for American democracy and rule of law. The episode calls for bipartisan efforts to hold power accountable and protect the rights of victims and immigrants alike.

Notable Quotes:

• Donald Trump ([03:28]): “I never went to the island. I never had the privilege of going to his island.”
• Tara Palmieri ([11:42]): “The timeline doesn’t add up, and it doesn’t make any sense at all.”
• Senator Dick Durbin ([73:04]): “If the president is foolish enough to even seriously consider giving this woman a pardon, he will pay a heavy price for it with the American people.”
• Nicolle Wallace ([86:54]): “Trump looks to be consuming a conspiracy monster he cynically helped create and now can't control.”

This episode of Deadline: White House provides a thorough examination of the intertwined scandals of Trump, Epstein, and Maxwell, set against the backdrop of national tragedies and immigration crises. Through expert analysis and poignant discussions, Nicolle Wallace delivers a nuanced perspective on the pressing issues shaping America’s political landscape.

Transcript

[Nicole Wallace]

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[Sam Stein]

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[Nicole Wallace]

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[Tara Palmieri]

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[Sam Stein]

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[Sam Stein]

That's 1-800-flowers comm./ Pandora. Hi there, everyone. It's 4 o' clock in the east. In the words of one person who played an outside role, a role bigger than arguably just about anyone else, in helping to propel Donald Trump to the White House, the Epstein case is now, quote, a line in the sand. Joe Rogan, whose last minute endorsement of Donald Trump back in November generated endless political debates among Democrats about whether Kamala Harris should have gone on his show wondering if it would have been determinative in November's outcome. That guy Joe Rogan is out with a crystal clear warning for Donald Trump that Trump's evasiveness and Trump's gaslighting on the Epstein case is hurting his credibility. Now on everything else, watch. This is a line in the sand. This one's a line in the sand.

[Claire McCaskill]

Because this is one where there's a.

[Nicole Wallace]

Lot of stuff about, you know, when we thought Trump was gonna come in.

[Sam Stein]

And a lot of things are gonna.

[Claire McCaskill]

Be resolved, gonna drain the swamp, gonna figure everything out.

[Sam Stein]

And when you have this one hardcore.

[Claire McCaskill]

Line in the sand that everybody had been talking about forever and then they're trying to gaslight you on that.

[Sam Stein]

Rogan also ripped to shreds the defense that Team Trump has argued and played on his show. Here's what he said about FBI Director Kash Patel's appearance on his show last month. The Epstein stuff is so crazy because when Cash Patel was on here and.

[Claire McCaskill]

He was like, there's no, there's nothing.

[Nicole Wallace]

And I was like, what are you talking? Yeah, I didn't even know what to say.

[Claire McCaskill]

My thought was, and people like, why.

[Nicole Wallace]

Didn'T you push back more? My thought was like, I'm just gonna put this out there and let the Internet do its work because there's nothing I could.

[Claire McCaskill]

The guy's saying, there's no tapes, there's no video. That doesn't make any sense. Everyone knows it doesn't make any sense. The whole thing was nuts.

[Sam Stein]

And then they really. He's like, well, we have a film.

[Claire McCaskill]

We're going to release that film.

[Nicole Wallace]

And. And the film has a minute missing from it.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah.

[Nicole Wallace]

Like, do you think we're babies?

[Claire McCaskill]

Like, what is this.

[Sam Stein]

So much to unpack there? Right. But part of the reason that Rogan said that Epstein is a, quote, line in the sand, part of what he argues, part of what the complaint is centered around is that Donald Trump is now at the center of so many more unanswered questions, questions that seem to multiply with every comment Trump makes. On Monday, Trump said this.

[Donald Trump]

For years. I wouldn't talk to Jeffrey Epstein. I wouldn't talk because he did something that was inappropriate. He hired help. And I said, don't ever do that again. He stole people that work for me. I said, don't ever do that again. He did it again. And I threw him out of the place. Persona non grata. I threw him out and that was it. I'm glad I did, if you want to know the truth. And by the way, I never went to the island. And Bill Clinton went there supposedly 28 times. I never went to the island. But Larry Summers, I hear, went there. He was the head of Harvard and many other people that are very big people. Nobody ever talks about them. I never had the privilege of going to his island and I did turn it down. But a lot of people in Palm beach were invited to his island. In one of my very good moments, I turned it down. I didn't want to go to his island.

[Sam Stein]

What? What, they break up as friends because he, quote, stole people from him? People are property. And then Trump claims he never had the privilege going to the island. Okay. Is it best a curious and ill advised choice of words to call that a privilege? But also this stealing of people from him as though those people were his property and Epstein stole his property. It's a fair interpretation of those comments. You recall that the Trump administration has been saying that Epstein and Trump had a falling out because Epstein was a, quote, creep. That's been the line from the press, folks. Trump was asked now about these conflicting answers today, and that led reporters to ask more questions.

[Tara Palmieri]

Listen, you said yesterday you're falling out.

[Sam Stein]

With Jeffrey Epstein was over him taking some of the workers from your business. But your administration in the past said that you threw him out because he was a creep. So can you explain that discrepancy?

[Donald Trump]

The same thing, you know, sort of a little bit of the same thing. But no, he took people that work for me and I told him, don't do it anymore. And he did it. And I said, stay the hell out of here. Yes, they were young women.

[Sam Stein]

What did they do in the spa?

[Donald Trump]

Yeah, people that work in the spa. Great spa. One of the best spas in the world in Mar a Lago. And people were taken out of the spa, hired by him. In other words, gone. And other people would come and complain. This guy is taking people from the spa. I didn't know that. And then when I heard about it, I told him, I said, listen, we don't want you taking our people. Whether it was spa or not spa. I don't want him taking people. And he was fine. And then not too long after that, he did it again. And I said, out of here, Mr. President.

[Nicole Wallace]

Stolen.

[Sam Stein]

You know, persons that include Virginia Humphrey?

[Donald Trump]

I don't know. I think she worked at the spa. I think so. I think that was one of the people. He stole her. And by the way, she had no complaints about us, as you know, none whatsoever.

[Sam Stein]

What year is it? What are we talking about? Trump is talking in that sound you just listened to about a victim named Virginia Giuffre. She's one of Jeffrey Epstein's better known victims. We know a lot about her as a victim. She died by suicide this April. In the midst of all this, Trump is trying to refocus attention on Jeffrey Epstein's accomplice and longtime girlfriend, Ghislaine Maxwell, whose attorney has made clear that she would like a pardon or commutation. For what? It's not clear today. She told Congress she would testify only under immunity. Some of Trump's media allies are already laying the groundwork for Trump to comply with that request and grant her clemency. Listen to MAGA influencer Charlie Kirk.

[Nicole Wallace]

If anybody actually has the information of what has happened around Jeffrey Epstein, it's not going to be some James Comey created file. It is going to be Ghislaine Maxwell.

[Sam Stein]

But do you know who created the Ghislaine Maxwell? Well, forget it. I know we're not on Earth one anymore. So for those of you interested in how this goes on Earth 2, here's how the new narrative that Joe Rogan, for one, isn't Buying goes the files created by the investigators that sent Ghislaine Maxwell to prison and before he committed suicide, Jeffrey Epstein to jail. Those files are a hoax. Ghislaine Maxwell, who was convicted, will singularly tell a truth that can't be found in the files. I guess it's not clear even from the MAGA telling, which, again, Joe Rogan, for his part, isn't buying. It's not clear how a pardon for Maxwell, a convicted sex trafficker, a convicted predator, convicted felon. It's not clear how pardoning that person would sit with the American public or even Trump's base of supporters. Charlie Kirk is trying. He's laying the groundwork, just in case, not to say anything of how any of Epstein or Maxwell's victims would feel about a pardon. Those questions are where we begin today. Podcast host, author of the Red Letter on Substack, Tara Palmieri's back. Tara has hosted two investigative series on the topic called Jeffrey Epstein and the Maxwells. Also joining us, managing editor of the Bulwark, MSNBC contributor Sam Stein. And rounding out our panel, former Democratic senator, MSNBC political analyst Claire McCaskill's here. Tara, I wonder if you can sort of tell me how much what Trump said is new. I mean, the line from the press secretary had simply been that he had a falling out with Epstein because Epstein was a creep. I don't know that we'd heard the specificity with which Trump decided he was a creep. It was because he was, quote, stealing employees from the spa and that they.

[Andrew Weissman]

That's not true.

[Sam Stein]

Go ahead.

[Tara Palmieri]

Yeah, sorry, I have to interject on this because when I, when I heard that I was just, I was, it was. It's just not true. I worked very closely with Virginia Giuffre. If you listen to Broken Jeffrey Epstein, we traveled all over the country together trying to find people who could corroborate her story. And in the, in the actual, you know, podcast, we find someone who recalls when she was found at Mar A Lago. And by the way, it wasn't Epstein. It was Ghislaine Maxwell, the woman he's considering setting free, who actually procured, procured Virginia. But they remained friends during that time. And Virginia told me that she met Donald Trump through Jeffrey Epstein. And, and Virginia was only with Epstein from 2000 to 2002. And there are pictures of Jeffrey and Trump together in that year, 2000. Donald Trump praised Jeffrey Epstein, said he was a terrific guy. Remember that famous New York Magazine quote? That was at the time when he claimed that he was so Furious about stealing Virginia Giuffre. The timeline doesn't add up. It doesn't reflect any of the reporting that I've seen. And also, Donald Trump was deposed by one of the victims, the lawyers for the victims, Brad Edwards. And when he told the story, it was over real estate. It was over a piece of property, Palm beach waterfront property. They got in a bidding war. And because of it, Trump had to pay more. He ended up having to pay over $40 million for a property ironically called the House of Friendship. And he was furious at Epstein. He called him up and he cursed him out over it. And that was the end of their friendship. And that was in 2004. It just doesn't line up, and it doesn't make any sense at all.

[Sam Stein]

And if you could just remind us, I mean, Trump has either been reminded or remembers Virginia. Tell us her story.

[Tara Palmieri]

I'm not sure that he necessarily remembers her. I mean, she told me that she was never trafficked to Donald Trump, but, but she was very critical in the operation. I mean, in the sense that she was a sex slave to the. To Epstein from the ages of 16 to 18. And, and she was there and basically passed around to his friends, like she said, like a platter, like a fruit on a fruit platter. And so she saw a lot. She traveled all over the world with him. She's all over the flight logs with all of these powerful men. She was trafficked to powerful men. And she came forward about Prince Andrew. She was one of the first, first victims to be public back in 2011. You know, Glenn Maxwell perjured herself twice in the case against Virginia Roberts Giuffre. But, you know, even in the case of Virginia, I just want to point out again, for anyone who says that Glenn deserves any sort of clemency, when Virginia ended up in Epstein's house, it was Golan who took her panties off. That was the first person who touched her. It was Galen who brought her there. It was Galen who found her at, at Mar a Lago. And that was the same case with Annie Farmer. It was Glenn who, who touched her first. And I think any sort of idea that, that, that Glenn was just some sort of, like, victim, as they're saying on Newsmax and other places, is absurd. She was a pedophile. She did the exact same thing. And this whole idea that President Trump was upset about it at the time is absurd.

[Sam Stein]

What is, Tara, your best understanding of why MAGA seems to exonerate Glenn Maxwell's sexual abuse of these girls? Are they unaware of it? Do they not believe it. I mean, she sounds like the sexual abuser that Epstein was.

[Tara Palmieri]

It's like, exactly. It's like they don't want to hear these stories. I just interviewed Annie Farmer for my podcast and Annie was very explicit in explaining this. She testified in the case about how she would have never ended up there. Glenn literally got on the phone with Annie Farmer's mother and convinced her that it was okay for her daughter to go to this ranch, Zorro Ranch, because she had promised them that they were going to pay for the tuition for their daughter. I mean, this is, you know, they preyed on children. The houseman that I spoke to for Epstein, Juan Alessi, he worked for him since the 1990s. He said that their ritual was to drive around and for Ghislaine Maxwell to look for three girls for Jeffrey Epstein per day to satisfy his needs. I mean, this is a predator. And then once she got them in the door, she was involved in the sexual acts. And I don't think they want to hear this. They want, they want to create the impression that she is somehow absolved of all of this. All of these girls, especially the young ones, they have the same exact story because it was Glenn and the grooming of a woman bringing him in. They would have never showed up on a 50 year old doorsteps if it wasn't for an adult posh woman who did not look like a madam. I mean, she's wearing Ralph Lauren. She went to Oxford. Her father was a press baron. He owned the New York Daily News, the Daily Mirror, Incredibly Posh has a little, you know, Yorkshire terrier, Max, he was called. And they would drive around in a chauffeured vehicle and she said, oh, you're beautiful. I'm going to make you a model. I know Les Wexner, who she did know, who owned Victoria's Secret. It was all very credible. And then she trapped them and also molested them. And I feel like that needs to be told more and more, is that she was involved in the sexual pedophilia as well.

[Sam Stein]

Tara, what is your theory behind why Trump is talking about these chapters and these people by name and telling these stories that based on your reporting are not true?

[Tara Palmieri]

I have no idea because the timeline, it just proves that there's pictures, there's quotes, there's so many things to suggest that if he really believes that telling the story that, that the procuring of Virginia was what truly offended him, then why was, why did he continue to stay in, in Epstein's circle during that period of time from 2000 to 2002. Why did they break up in 2004?

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, let me bring Sam and Claire into the conversation. I mean, Sam Stein, we've all, we, all of us have covered Trump scandals and marveled really, that they don't stick to him. This one is the first Barnacle, right? He can't pull it off. It is stuck on him. And he seems to be trying, I guess, to make it go away by offering new and textured explanations. But to anyone that's covered this story over the years, they're clearly, clearly not rooted either in recollections that are accurate or in the truth. Your sense of what he's doing and why he's talking about this on Air Force One today?

[Chris O'Leary]

Well, it's not that he's trying to rip off the Barnacle. It seems like he's adding new ones on a daily or weekly basis. Right? At first it's, well, you know, maybe Barack Obama or James Comey wrote all these files who can't trust them anyway, which is a deep offense to people who saw through it as a complete diversion. And then this today, I think is kind of a shocking statement if you just step back. And of course, as you noted, talking about these people as if they're his property, we're talking about 16 year olds completely mangling the actual sequence of events, as Tara rightfully notes. I mean, his comments to New York magazine about how great a guy Epstein was, was two years after Virginia and Maxwell met at Mar a Lago. So it didn't make any sense. And all it does is frankly invite more scrutiny and questions about what exactly is happening here. Why is he acting so weird? Why are his explanations for his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein combusting? Why? Why are they changing? Why won't he just release the files? Right? Like, I mean, that's obviously what would get him through this is if they had a full disclosure. But because he's so adamant that they're not going to, it just invites more questions. And I'll just say the last point, you know, the sort of dichotomy that's happening in this current moment where he's talking about Virginia Giuffre as property that Jeffrey Epstein stole and Julianne Maxwell, who Virginia said in a subsequent interview was the actual monster of this operation, not Epstein. She said Maxwell was more monstrous than Epstein. So all this is happening at the same time. They're almost rehabilitating Maxwell's image, floating the idea that she might get a pardon, dancing around the idea that she could get immunity for her testimony. I mean, it's creating this incredibly uncomfortable dichotomy in which they are aligning themselves with the monster and maligning the victim. And, you know, will he get through this scandal as he has every prior scandal of his political career? Possibly. Probably. I don't know. I mean, but it's unequivocally true that this has now been three and a half, four weeks of this storyline. And he keeps saying things that invite more scrutiny.

[Sam Stein]

You know, Claire, I think this is. It's not just a line in the sand. It's a good start. What Joe Rogan is describing there, it is determinative about the independence of what is really one of the most vibrant parts of the media ecosystem right now in the podcast world. Joe Rogan is really without competition. And the whole bond he has with his audience is they trust him and they like him. And if he, you know, drawing a line in the sand seems like a good start. But I think you were the one of the first to wave your arms around what Tara's talking about. Ghislaine Maxwell is a monster and a predator in the telling of the victims. And if Joe Rogan keeps his bond with his audience, it seems to turn around whether or not he can be flipped and turn some of these people into truth tellers, which is what Charlie Kirk's telling seems to be paving the way for your thoughts on Trump's statement today and his standing in the sort of MAGA influencer world.

[Andrew Weissman]

Well, the flashing red light here is the way they're trying to rehabilitate a child convicted. A lying, convicted child sex predator. And that's what this woman is. And you know, I'm going to beg, Tara, you need to book yourself on Joe Rogan with one of the victims. And you need to say on that and any other place in the right wing media sphere you can, that it was Maxwell who took the panties off a child so Epstein and she could have their prurient interest satisfied by children. And the idea that he thinks politically he can get away with pardoning this woman or commuting her sentence tells you how far down this slippery slope we've actually gone. Let me tell you how this should go with Ghislaine Maxwell. If this was a real effort to get to the bottom of what Jeffrey Epstein and Maxwell did together, step by step, hand in hand, they would have sent an investigator down to talk to her that knew the files backwards and forwards. Because you never interview someone who's been convicted unless you know exactly where you can catch him lying instead. They don't do that. They send his personal lawyer down there. And after you send an investigator down there, you keep in mind the entire time you want to protect the victims. And ultimately your goal is additional prosec of people who have sexually molested children. That's your goal as the Department of Justice. You know what Todd Blanche's role was to protect Trump. That is how evil this is. He wasn't down there to get to the bottom of it. He was down there to see if they could somehow craft a result that would get Trump out of this trap. He's in that releasing the files makes Trump look terrible. So they're trying to figure out, is there any way we can make him look better by not releasing the. And if there is a sane person in the right wing media sphere right now, they would realize the victims are being hurt every day by what they're doing. I don't ever want to hear another word out about Republican maga world about child sex predators because they are about to rehabilitate one of the worst ones we've had in this century.

[Sam Stein]

All right, I need all of you to stick around a little bit longer with us. Also ahead much more on this story, a top Senate Democrat pushing for a public commitment from the Justice Department not to pardon Ghislaine Maxwell and to release the transcripts from Blanche's meetings with her. Senator Dick Durbin joins us on that. Plus, Jacob Soborough will be here. He was at an immigration court where he witnessed multiple undocumented immigrants swiftly detained by ICE agents when they were trying to appear for their scheduled hearing.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Banks.

[Sam Stein]

We'll talk to him about the alarming rise in apprehensions that he's seeing all around our country. But just ahead for U.S. investigators today trying to understand how and why a gunman opened fire in a New York City office building, bringing about tragedy, causing chaos throughout the city. Another horrific mass shooting. We'll take a look at the lives cut way too short last night. All those stories and more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

[Nicole Wallace]

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[Nicole Wallace]

A couple weeks or a.

[Claire McCaskill]

Week before that flight, I was talking.

[Nicole Wallace]

To Jeffrey and he told me that.

[Claire McCaskill]

He was talking to Donald and he.

[Nicole Wallace]

Asked Donald, how come you sleep with.

[Claire McCaskill]

So many married women?

[Nicole Wallace]

And Donald's answer was, because it's so wrong now amongst guys.

[Claire McCaskill]

It was a funny line.

[Nicole Wallace]

And then when we were plane a.

[Claire McCaskill]

Week or two later, Jeffrey asked Donald the same question.

[Nicole Wallace]

I know he did that for my benefit so that I could hear Donald say it.

[Claire McCaskill]

And Jeffrey asked him, how come you sleep with so many married women?

[Sam Stein]

And Donald said, because it's so wrong.

[Claire McCaskill]

Now it's a funny line, but the.

[Nicole Wallace]

Answer is not the poignant part of the story here.

[Claire McCaskill]

The question is the poignant part because for Jeffrey to ask him that question, number one, he would have to know.

[Nicole Wallace]

That Donald slept with a lot of married women.

[Claire McCaskill]

That's not the kind of question you.

[Nicole Wallace]

Ask a casual acquaintance.

[Sam Stein]

So we played that because that was the brother of Jeffrey Epstein, Mark Epstein on CNN talking about the nature of Trump's friendship with Jeffrey Epstein and the substance of what they talked about. We're back with Tara, Sam and Claire. Tara, let me come back to you with two questions for you. One, I played the tape of Trump accusing Bill Clinton of going to Epstein Island 28 times. It's a claim that Bill Clinton denies. But two, what is your sense of what the truth is about the duration of Donald Trump's relationship with Jeffrey Epstein? Until when do you think they were in communication or do we know.

[Tara Palmieri]

Earliest? I think they may have broke off communication was 2004. They may have continued communication after that. But Trump was pretty angry about this real estate war. He was pissed about having to spend more money on a piece of property and he chewed out Jeffrey Epstein about it. And then Epstein ended up going to prison for being a pedophile. Not that great to be associated with that. Now, Glenn Maxwell, she still was in high society. I mean, she was still cavorting with everyone, you know, high, high flying figures until, until Jeffrey was really arrested in 2019. So I could see her, her, him still staying in touch with her. By the way, they go really far back. President Trump and Glenn Maxwell. They go back to when Glenn's father, Robert Maxwell, owned the New York Daily News and she was working for her father selling corporate gifts and she was trying to sell them as like a 18, 19, 20 year old to, to Donald Trump. Like they have a very long friendship. This goes very deep. So I think to suggest that this is just some sort of a casual thing is another, another thing I wanted to point out and also the point about Epstein that Mark made about how they had this sort of friendship, this locker room talk, these guys, or not even locker room talk, depraved talk really, in this case, you know, Epstein and Trump are so close that when Epstein's mom or aunt wanted to go to Atlanta City, Trump would, would give them a room at the, at his casinos down there and take care of them. Like that's how close they were.

[Sam Stein]

Let me come back and follow up on Maxwell. When you heard Trump say to Jonathan Swan during his first presidency that he wished her well. And Jonathan Swan push, but he was at Axios at the time, said she's a convicted pedophile. I mean, what do you kind of gave him a chance to, to say, is that really what you mean? And he said, yeah, yeah, I wish her well. I wish her well. Are you surprised that there wasn't more digging into the nature of that intimacy and attachment that Trump felt to her?

[Tara Palmieri]

I don't, I don't, I don't. But I like the more I learned about Ghislaine and her history and her father and even just the strange connections how, you know, Trump bought his boat from Adnan Khashoggi, who was, that was the Princess Trump and that that was a conn. Khashoggi and Glenn Maxwell's father, Robert Maxwell, were business associates. I mean, I think they've all known each other for A very long time. They all used to hang out on Robert Maxwell's boat when it was parked in the upper on the Hudson River. And you know, President Trump loves the press. The guy owned the New York Daily News. That is a person that President Trump was going to spend a lot of time with. And Robert Maxwell saw Glenn as an example, extent, extension of himself. He was in a way that Trump feels about Ivanka, where he's very proud of her and how beautiful she is. That was how Robert felt about, about Glenn. And he would bring her the events like in the, in the role that a wife would normally take, like accompanying her, her and he, and he was proud of Glenn Maxwell and he introduced, he introduced her to all of his powerful friends, including Donald Trump. She's known Trump since she was young. She's known him since she was in college.

[Sam Stein]

Clara, let me bring you back in on where you think this is heading in Congress. Obviously the speaker sent them all away so he wouldn't have to deal with this. But with Joe Rogan drawing this line in the sand, Andrew Schultz, another MAGA adjacent podcaster, having none of this, the political pressure on rank and file Republicans is not abating. It is growing.

[Andrew Weissman]

Yeah, I don't know that the recess is helping these Republicans. You know, they're trying to distract with other things, redistricting and you know, lying about the bill in terms of the tax benefits to folks who struggle to make ends meet. But at the end of the day, they are going to be confronted with really difficult votes when they get back. I do believe there's a chance that Massie and Ro Khanna are going to get their bill to a mandatory vote. Certainly there's going to be amendments constantly offered by Democrats and some Republicans. This has caused a schism. And clearly when you have the number of people in America who disagree with what's happening here, as large as it is, and it is now infiltrated for the first time, Nicole, for the very first time, there are people within the MAGA calcified. Whatever he does is right. Whatever he says is true. He is our guy. They now are going, wait a minute, this, this looks really bad. He's clearly just protecting himself, not children and not. And he's not trying to clean the swamp. He's helping the swamp stay swampy. And I just don't know how those hardcore MAGA folks reconcile those positions with the votes they're going to have to take.

[Sam Stein]

You know, Sam, let me come back to something Claire said about Todd Blanche, because it echoes what Chris Christie said about Todd Blanche, Chris Christie said on Sunday he has never in his life heard of anyone in the position that Blanche is in, going down and meeting with someone who's a witness. I mean, firing Maureen Comey could have been chalked up to straight up retribution. Her last name's Comey, for Pete's sake. But now even that looks deeply suspicious. What is your sense as to where this story's going?

[Chris O'Leary]

That's a great question. I mean, I've really tried to figure out what the actual logical steps here are that the administration is pursuing by Todd Blanche, Deputy Attorney General. It is totally abnormal to have someone of that stature go and have this type of direct conversation with someone like Maxwell. And for what purpose? Right. Floating around the idea of a pardon or maybe some sort of reduced sentencing, a discussing immunity in exchange for testimony when you know that she perjured herself, that she's a liar, that she's. Her character is deeply suspicious, to say the least, in that people like Comey are out there who can refute stuff that she says. And that would just put you in a worse position. So what actually is the actual end game here? I mean, how does this work out for Donald Trump or the administration if they do offer Maxwell a pardon or some reduced sentencing? We already know that would make Republicans deeply uncomfortable. I mean, sure, they'll go along with it because they go along with a lot of what Donald Trump wants them to go along with. But on Sunday, Speaker Mike Johnson was fairly adamant, saying, and I don't want to pardon. I think that'd be bad. So it's difficult to say what the next three steps are for the administration here. I think they're just trying to get through each day, frankly.

[Sam Stein]

And they will. They're in the air, I think, but they will land and have to contend with this new, this new sound from Donald Trump. That'll drive at least another round of questions. What is he talking about? Tara Palmieri, your reporting is so valuable and so appreciated. Thank you so much. And I agree with what Claire said. You should be a guest on Joe Rogan's podcast and share your knowledge with his listeners. I think they'd like it. Sam stein and Claire McCaskill, thank you for starting us off today. Up next for us, we will turn to the tragedy in Manhattan. The deadly mass shooting at an office building in midtown Manhattan earlier yesterday evening. Four people were killed, including an NYPD officer. We'll talk with a reporter about why officials say the gunman may have been targeting the NFL headquarters, which were inside that building. Investigators are right now piecing together the details about the deadly, horrific mass shooting in midtown Manhattan yesterday evening. This video shows the scene that unfolded after police say a gunman walked into a high rise corporate building on Park Avenue in Manhattan, opening fire in the lobby and then again on the 33rd floor before he eventually killed himself. Among the four innocent lives tragically cut short yesterday, 36 year old NYPD officer Diderol Islam. His wife is pregnant with their third child. The new York Times says that Islam was supposed to have been helping her prepare for a prenatal visit this morning. Instead, another police officer came by the family's home in the Bronx to take his wife to her appointment. She is expected to give birth in August. Also murdered in the mass shooting, Security officer Alaine Etienne. His union called him a New York hero who took his job duties extremely seriously. He's a devoted father of two school aged children. According to the New York Times, his brother called him, quote, a light in our lives. Also murdered yesterday, 43 year old Wesley Lapatner. She's an executive at Blackstone who the Wall Street Journal says lived on Manhattan's Upper east side with her husband who she met on the first day of their freshman year at Yale. Her family said, according to that reporting, quote, she was the most loving wife, mother, daughter, sister and relative who enriched our lives in every way imaginable. She had a son and a daughter. The suspect has been identified as a 27 year old employee at a Las Vegas casino. Officials say he used an AR15 style assault rifle which he was not authorized to carry. Joining our coverage is MSNBC investigative correspondent Mark Santilla and retired FBI agent MSNBC national security and intelligence analyst Chris o'. Leary. Mark, take us inside. What you're reporting tells us about how this came to be yesterday.

[Mark Santilla]

Nicole. We have several new developments this afternoon. We're going to start right here in midtown Manhattan. You can see over my shoulder the lobby glass that was shattered by dozens of bullets. That's being replaced right now. Also here, the NYPD evidence teams, they're on Park Avenue. They're still gathering leads. While other groups, we have learned other groups of NYPD detectives are now in Las Vegas, Nevada to learn more about the gunman. The NYPD has a lead in this investigation, say the gunman, Shane Tamura, most recently worked an overnight security job at a casino called Horseshoe, Nevada.

[Sam Stein]

He did.

[Mark Santilla]

He failed to show up to work last Sunday and instead officials say he drove cross country to New York City. Tamura had a three page handwritten suicide note in his wallet. Investigators said they believe it shut sheds light on why he may have targeted the NFL headquarters here on Park Avenue. The gunman said he suffered from cte, a degenerative brain disease that he claims he suffered while playing high school football. Now, it's important to note Tamura never played for the NFL, but blamed the NFL and also wrote, quote, study my brain. Tamura shot himself in the chest and took his own life. NYPD Police Commissioner Jessica Tisch says the long gun he used was an AR15 style assault rifle, and it was assembled by Tamura using a lower receiver. That's the central part of the gun, including the trigger. That was purchased by an associate. Now, we've learned the NYPD has located that associate and will be questioning him. Now, this is all in an effort, Nicole, to assemble a timeline and a narrative for investigators to try and get answers to the how and why this happened. The NYPD detectives in Las Vegas, they will also search Tamura's home there in Nevada. They'll visit a gun store where he legally purchased a separate revolver last month. But, Nicole, no answers here. They're looking for answers, but no answers will bring any comfort to the friends and family of the four people who were killed, including an NYPD police officer, a Blackstone executive, a security guard. Mothers and fathers, loved ones, cherished friends. We are starting to see a memorial grow here. And, Nicole, the community here is grieving tonight.

[Sam Stein]

Chris, mass shootings, tragically, we all know, we all sometimes come together to cover them, take on a pace and a rhythm of their own, but they are pretty rare in midtown Manhattan. How, in your analysis, did this happen yesterday and do you think things will change?

[Jacob Soboroff]

Well, how did it happen? You know, unfortunately, all these high rise buildings, while they do have security visible, it's really not security that's going to be able to counter somebody heavily armed and moving with violent intentions like this individual was doing. You know, he moved with purpose and he had surprise and violence of action and unfortunately was, you know, better armed than the police officer and the security officers who were trying to protect the building and its occupants. I think, unfortunately, we could be at the beginning of a trend. Some of the more recent attacks, including the attack on United Healthcare, this is learned behavior. So if you look back at school shootings, going all the way back to Columbine, that metastasized over years, over the years because it was learned behavior by other people. You had copycats, and it became something that was sensationalized in some cases, so people considered doing it themselves. This, unfortunately, could be a trend that we're seeing and you can attribute it to, to many different things, polarization in society, the wealth gap between the 1% and the rest of society, mental health issues coming out of COVID But we're definitely seeing grievance based violence that's emerging and I think it's going to be a trend moving forward whether that grievance is real or perceived. Nobody has actually said whether this individual was diagnosed with a cte.

[Sam Stein]

We just need to get a quick break. We'll turn to how this individual, whether he was diagnosed or not, got his hands on a gun next. Don't go anywhere.

[Andrew Weissman]

Officer Islam was married with two young boys. His wife is pregnant with their third child. He's assigned to the 47 precinct in the Bronx.

[Tara Palmieri]

He was doing the job that we.

[Sam Stein]

Asked him to do.

[Andrew Weissman]

He put himself in harm's way. He made the ultimate sacrifice, shot in cold blood wearing a uniform that stood.

[Tara Palmieri]

For the promise that he made to this city.

[Sam Stein]

He died as he lived, a hero. Mark and Chris are back with us. Let me read about one more of the victims. This is from NBC's reporting on Wesley Lapatner, the executive from Blackrock who was murdered yesterday. Quote, bruce Filer, a friend of Wesley Lapatner, said this, quote, At 43, she was the most effortless and impressive person. He wanted to follow her wherever she went. He wrote, a mentor to young women and generous friend to everyone who knew her. She was on the board of her children's Jewish day school, recently joined the board of the Met and just felt in every way like the kind of leader we all want and need in these unsettling times. Chris, I take your point about a trend in terms of where the mass shooters seem to be taking their cues. But what are the trends that save mothers and fathers from being gunned down at the office? What's the response? What is needed?

[Jacob Soboroff]

Yeah, so unfortunately, I think we're going to have to see some training at corporate offices on active shooter. Same way we normalize that in schools, you're not going to be able to put up a massive security presence around, you know, every corporate office in, in New York City or in the United States for that matter. So empowering individuals to, to be able to react themselves is going to be necessary. And then, you know, nobody wants to talk about it. But mental health issues in the United States and gun control, both of which are really the foundational issues at this, you know, investigators will be looking at back to what we were talking about before the break. Did he have a CT or did he have Some kind of life changing event that motivated him to start mobilizing towards violence. It clearly doesn't look like there's an ideology or anything beyond that. But did he have some kind of mental break, you know, a relationship that went sour, finances that went down the drain? Was there something that turned him to a hopeless individual and he wanted to act out?

[Sam Stein]

Mark, what is your sense of where the investigation around, you know, walking into an office building carrying a gun, as all the video shows he did. Do you sense that there will be an after action analysis, that laws will change in terms of how we protect workspaces?

[Mark Santilla]

I know, Nicole, just speaking to some private security folks in the area, they're very interested by what happened. People are taking sort of a look at themselves, a look at their own buildings at this point, their companies. Can anything be done differently in the future? I know NYPD has a very close relationship with, with companies across the five boroughs here. It's a very hand in hand sort of relationship. They will share secure security, surveillance video. They'll talk. There's ongoing dialogue between the NYPD and businesses here. They also have a lot of retired NYPD will then go on to work for corporations here. So I know right now there's a lot of dialogue happening.

[Sam Stein]

Nicole, Mark and Chris, thank you so much for helping us with this awful, awful story. A quick break for us. We'll be right back. An update for you on the ongoing feud between Donald Trump and Harvard University. There's new reporting in the New York Times that says Harvard University is willing to pay as much as $500 million to end its dispute with the Trump administration. That is according to four people familiar with those negotiations. That is more than twice what Columbia University said it would pay last month. On that, the Times reports that Donald Trump himself has privately demanded that Harvard pay more than Columbia. They also report, quote, Harvard is also skeptical of Columbia's agreement to allow an outside monitor to oversee its sweeping arrangement with the government. Harvard officials have signaled that such a requirement for their own settlement could be a red line as a potential infringement on the university's academic freedom. We'll stay on top of that story after the break. Jacob Soboroff will be here on the alarming scenes he is witnessing at an immigration court in New York City. The next hour of deadline, White House starts after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

[Nicole Wallace]

Hi there, it's Andy Richter and I'm here to tell you about my podcast, the Three Questions with Andy Richter. Each week I invite friends, comedians, actors and musicians to discuss these three. Where do you come from, where are you going, and what have you learned? New episodes are out every Tuesday with guests like like Julie Bowe and Ted Danson, Tig Notaro, Will Arnett, Phoebe Bridgers and more. You can also tune in for my weekly Andy Richter Call in show episodes where me and a special guest invite callers to weigh in on topics like dating, disasters, bad teachers, and lots more. Listen to the three questions with Andy Richter wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sam Stein]

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[Nicole Wallace]

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[Claire McCaskill]

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[Sam Stein]

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[Sam Stein]

I have to tell you, one of my favorite things to watch on YouTube these days are the court hearings where illegals are in court and ICE shows up to drag them out of court and deport them. I can think of nothing more American today than keeping our streets safer by getting those violent criminals out of the United States of America. And we all have Donald J. Trump to thank for it. Hi again everybody. Good morning. It's five o'clock in the east. An unbelievable comment. An unbelievable thing to think, let alone say out loud on television. An unbelievably callous and cruel comment coming from Republican Congresswoman Nancy Mace of South Carolina. Of course, we all want our streets safe and our neighborhood safe, especially from convicted pedophiles. She revealed that what gives her pleasure is watching families of law abiding individuals, individuals torn apart because what she's describing is not the stealthy removal of dangerous criminals who are hiding from law enforcement, but the detaining of undocumented immigrants in process doing what the law says they should do and actually showing up for their immigration hearings. It is at these hearings where ICE is waiting for them, ready to sweep them up and deport them. A new piece in the New Yorker reports that this practice has been picking up in terms of pace lately. Quote, now many migrants are being detained regardless of the status of their case. Quote, I just can't in good faith advise someone to go to Federal Plaza, said Nuala o' Doherty Naranjo, a New York based immigration lawyer who is also a well known community organizer in Queens. Quote, two weeks ago I would have said maybe, but now, no way. While this phenomenon is happening at immigration courts all across our country in New York City there are some stunning numbers to tell you about the city and New York news outlet reports that apprehensions skyrocketed this summer. They look at that building the lawyer mentioned, 26 Federal Plaza where quote during the month of June an average of 89 people were detained inside each night. And despite what people like Nancy may say, these are not necessarily people with criminal records or criminal past. In fact, the city reports, quote, of the 1,453 people imprisoned inside the building in May and June, 968 of them or 67% have not been convicted or charged with any crimes. Those people are characterized by ICE as quote, other immigration violators. A category including people who overstayed their visas or were in the country without proper authorization. Our own colleague Jacob Sobra visited 26 Federal Plaza yesterday. He witnessed this chilling scene where a man right upon leaving the courtroom was promptly grabbed and detained. Watch.

[Donald Trump]

Hey.

[Sam Stein]

Hey.

[Donald Trump]

And that's it.

[Nicole Wallace]

So what you just witnessed was federal agents obviously detaining someone outside of their immigration hearing. A routine immigration check in here in the hallways of immigration court in lower Manhattan at 26 Federal Plaza. This has been happening on a daily basis for the better part of two months. And, and immigration attorneys and activists say that this goes against the rights of the migrants who are coming here to check in.

[Sam Stein]

It's where we start the hour with NBC's Jacob Soboroff. Also joining us, former top official at the Department of Justice, MSNBC legal analyst Andrew Weissman is here. Jacob, tell us what you saw.

[Nicole Wallace]

I couldn't believe it, Nicole. And I wanted to see it with my own eyes, you know, to hear what is playing out on the streets of of Los Angeles and has been over the course of the last several months, every single day, indiscriminate, wide scale immigration enforcement, snatching people up where they should be safe, at places of work where historically ICE and other federal agents have never gone to do. This type of enforcement is happening in the hallways of buildings like 26 Federal Plaza on a daily basis. And it was a remarkable thing to see, not just because these immigrants who are showing up as they're supposed to, to play a part in the lawful immigration process are being literally snatched the second they walk out the door of the courtroom, where otherwise they might be given a court date to come back in a year or two for a regularly scheduled appearance to perhaps get asylum or go into full removal proceedings. They're being picked up and taken to, in some cases, a secretive detention center. What you're watching on your screen happened on the 12th floor on the 14th floor of this 26 Federal Plaza, where literally over a thousand people have been taken over the course of the last two months. The 14th floor has other immigration courtrooms, but on the 10th floor is a detention center. And ICE says it's not a detention center, it's just an ICE office space. But essentially they are being taken, rendered to that room, held in that detention center. And many of them are placed into what's called, called expedited removal proceedings. And of course, Nancy May says there's nothing more American than watching scenes like this play out. This is some video that the city obtained of that 10th floor detention center. What ICE says is an office or a workspace. Nancy May says there's nothing more American than watching scenes like this. Immigration advocates and lawyers say, in fact, it's actually a violation of their due process rights, that the rights of these people in this country, whether they're here to seek asylum or refuge or whatever their stories might be, are actually being violated. And that's what Nancy Mays says. There's nothing more American than watching on.

[Sam Stein]

YouTube Jacob Sobrov, Donald Trump ran on Deporting the worst of the worst. What kind of migrants or immigrants or asylum seekers show up for their court appearances? Are they the worst of the worst?

[Nicole Wallace]

You know, I can't tell you about every single person. And in full disclosure, I can't tell you even about the five people that I watch with my own eyes and being taken yesterday. But what I can tell you is data that has been released through outlets like the city says, 70%, 67 to be exact, of the people who have been apprehended in that building over the last two months had no criminal record. Whatsoever, other than being in the country without authorization, other than being undocumented. And the other thing I think it's important for people to remember, Nicole, is it's not just these people, like the man right here that I watched be apprehended by masked agents, armed masked agents, nine of them, just standing in the hallway with all of us waiting for them to come out. It's children, I cannot tell you. This is Mies right there standing. I mean, it is a unbelievably surreal scene that these guys are standing there in ski masks and sunglasses and hats and bulletproof vests. There are kids just like this who are being forced to walk through these scenes, even if they're not being detained by the ICE agents or the ATF agents. In the case of the scenes that I saw play out yesterday, or the Border Patrol agents who are there today, all of these children are going to suffer the trauma of walking through these militarized scenes in the hallways of 26 Federal Plaza because their moms and dads want to do the right thing. They want to show up for their hearings so that they can stay in this country legally. They're trying to actually make things right. And instead, they're being forced to literally walk through a gauntlet of armed masked agents who won't show their faces, won't tell you their names, and are literally grabbing people that could be their mothers and fathers and it could be their own family separation, were it not for the luck of the draw and they weren't the ones that were detained on that particular day.

[Sam Stein]

Jacob, what is the. For all that you were able to see and report how much of this is happening that we wouldn't necessarily know about?

[Nicole Wallace]

I think that first of all, there has been a long standing battle inside this particular building about access from folks like us. And what I will tell you is, with a press badge like the one that I wear on the side of my clothes here, anybody, and I would encourage anyone who has one to show up at 26 Federal Plaza to go see this for yourself. At first, they didn't want people to come in with cameras and to be able to take this footage and watch what was happening. But after a battle by some of the very journalists who have been there every single day, staking this out and watching it happen, the federal government, the building has now permitted people to come in and see what's going on inside. I can tell you that if I had pushed the button number 10 in the elevator and shown up in that detention center, we would not have been Welcomed and ice while saying that the conditions are not substandard, that nobody is being held in inhumane conditions. They don't want to let or haven't let anybody like me or you inside the 10th floor of that building to see who's in there right now, how long they've been held there for, what the conditions look like. If they're sleeping on the concrete floors, if they're under those Mylar blankets, if there are any families that are inside, we don't know because we're not able to know because they're not telling us. And so there have been some hard fought victories from, from primarily local journalists here in New York. And they deserve all the credit in the world to be able to allow us to have access and to watch the scenes that are playing out. By the way, Nicole, in courtrooms all across the United States of America, immigration courtrooms and hallways like this, this is playing out. But if I wanted to do this in Los Angeles, I couldn't. In San Diego, there's been some access. But remember, there's immigration courts all over the United States of America. Stephen Miller has a goal of deporting 3,000 people, apprehending on a daily basis. And the bottom line is this is going to continue. This is continuing and we do not have full access and full transparency. But in New York, we're just getting our first looks at it now.

[Sam Stein]

Andrew Weissman, take me inside. I mean, look, I'm not a lawyer. I don't even Play 1 on TV. But I did Google the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution today, and it says, nor shall any person be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process of law. Snatching people outside the hallway seems like the very contradiction of giving people due process. They're in a, they're being snatched in courthouses.

[Claire McCaskill]

Yeah. So there are a number of lawsuits about just this going on because in order to apprehend somebody, you need to have probable cause. You know, most famously the Supreme Court in connection with a case where people were extracted and sent to a prison in el Salvador. They voted 9 to 0, 9 to 0 that their due process rights were violated here. This idea of summary removal, of being snatched by people, let alone people who are wearing masks and attending a court appearance, which, by the way, I have to say, as a lawyer, it's like those are exactly the people who you should not go after. Those are not the, the hardened criminals who everyone can agree with. Due process can be removed and should be removed from this country. But this is sort of, sort of performative in the way it's done in such an inhumane way. And I just want to make sure people understand that what has been reported is going to get worse. This isn't one where you can say, well, things will get better. 75, $75 billion has been given to ICE in the new budget for increased enforcement and increased detention facilities and more agents. And that's where I have to say, as a lawyer, I would hope that an enormous amount of that would go into training to understand the law. The lawsuits that are pending have to do with the fact that people are being targeted for impermissible reasons without the factual predicate that's necessary in others. You can't just pick people up off the street because they look bad and based on sort of race or religion and the color of their skin. And that is what at least you, one judge in California has found is going on and is being done by ice, that the Department of Justice denies that, but this will bubble up in the courts.

[Sam Stein]

Andrew Trump ran, obviously. Jacob had the incredible reporting of the scenes from his convention, people waving around mass deportation signs. But the polling has really gone the other direction, away from what Trump ran on and far away from what he's actually doing. 87% of Americans in a New York Times Siena poll said they supported deporting adjudicated violent criminals. Right now, Trump's approval rating on immigration is the lowest it's ever been, in part perhaps because people are seeing what he's doing and how he's doing it. You've actually got a record number of people who believe that immigration is, is a good thing. Close to 80% of all Americans right now believe immigration is a good thing. It's up, I think, more than 16 points from one year ago. And just 35% of Americans approve of Donald Trump's handling of immigration. That's well below the number of people who voted for him. What is the sort of status of the legal push against what he's doing? It feels like whack a mole and it feels like the Supreme Court, while they were unanimous in saying that people had a right to due process, it feels like Trump is doing such a volume business of mass deportations and flooding the zone here. What, what is your sense of where the legal fight to protect migrants and asylum seekers stands right now?

[Claire McCaskill]

Sure. Well, there's no question that on the sort of the political front, there needs to just be a much more adult conversation where people can't paint with a broad brush and just say, you know, you're either for illegal immigrants or you're against illegal immigrants, to use the sort of pejorative term, and you not have a sort of more tailored view and definition. I think the problem with the Supreme Court is, is one that I've seen in the past, which is they ruled the right way in the decision, saying that due process was violated in extracting people. I mean, you had, you've had very conservative justices and judges say the same thing. The problem is there's that pronouncement and then no follow through. And that means that the groups that Jason has talked about, the immigration and lawyers and activists and NGOs, which are really strapped right now because of the volume of litigation, have to do this sort of person by person vindication of rights and against which there's this onslaught funded now by $75 billion on the other side. And, and so you're seeing that, that, that dynamic. And then you're also seeing what's happening with judges who push back where you have just yesterday, the Department of Justice filing a complaint against Chief Judge Boasberg, who's trying to vindicate these rights and making sure that the Constitution is not violated and the Department of Justice adheres to court orders. And so the, both the courts and the litigants have their hands full in the face of what I think is a really lawless regime going on. And that could be done. This is, I'm going to quote you, Nicole, all of this could be done in a lawful way if it wasn't trying to sort of be sort of cruelty in a sort of performative way. You could do the hard work of going after the people who are criminals who shouldn't be here and doing a tailored, difficult assignment and not just do this idea of sort of mass extraction of people without due process of law.

[Sam Stein]

Well, I mean, I guess, Jacob, this is where you would come in and say you, you can't achieve their targets without the indiscriminate rounding up of people that you're seeing. And it's where, I mean, the, the, the tragedy, I guess, or, you know, maybe, maybe people don't give Trump voters as much credit. But I'd like to. But the tragedy is that what people voted for isn't what's happening happening. And this kind of mass deportations, moving human beings around is years in the making. And you're reporting on child separation is so key to this. It required rhetoric which dehumanized people in the country illegally that was repeated and amplified and calcified. But I wonder what your personal state of mind is when you see that close to 80% of Americans right now think it's a 16 point jump from 12 months ago. Think immigration is a good thing. Do you think it's buyer's remorse? And do you think any of it matters? Is this train just barreling down the tracks?

[Nicole Wallace]

No, I actually feel heartened, actually. And it's when you and I talked to Alejandro Barranco, the Marine Corps veteran, son of the landscaper who was violently detained, beaten by federal agents on the streets of Santa Ana, California, when he was cutting bushes outside in ihop, we asked him sort of a similar question, you know, how do you feel about this country today? And he said, I couldn't love this country anymore. And what I think those poll numbers reflect, and I think what we're starting to see is what we saw during family separation, which at that time was hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people all around the country who came out not in a bipartisan way, but a universal way. The Pope spoke out about it to say this is not okay and not in our name. And Donald Trump, not because he felt morally opposed, but because he didn't like the, as he said, the sights of, and the feelings of the families being separated from the media coverage and that ProPublica audio that's so famous now back down on that policy. I don't think that we are there yet, but what we are witnessing in real time is what you and I sort of speculated about, what it would look like for a long time, which is the supersizing of the family separation policy, mass deportation in the streets. Now we know what it looks like. It looks like people showing up at Home Depots and at flower vendors and at floor root card stands and in hallways of immigration courts in the greatest city in the world in New York, where people come, where this is a symbol of immigration, where the Statue of Liberty is out in New York harbor. And people came here for that very thing, for a better life. And now they're all being torn apart from one another right here in a secret, wide scale, widespread effort. And I don't think it's going to remain so secret for so much longer. You know, they're going to be putting these billions and billions of dollars in, as Andrew said, and there will be no way for the American public to escape this, to make a choice about what's right and what's wrong. And I think we're all going through it together right now.

[Sam Stein]

Well, thank you for being our eyes and ears. And bearing witness doesn't always feel like enough. You know, you want to protect people being denied their due process, but it is, it is more than enough and it's more than what a lot of people are doing. So, Jacob so Roth, thank you for your voting on this. And Andrew Weissman sticks around a little bit longer when we come back. As Andrew mentioned, Donald Trump is stepping up his assault on the rule of law, looking to censure a judge who's ruled against him on immigration. The top Democrat and the Senate Judiciary Committee will join our conversation on that, as well as Jeffrey Epstein and his his call for the Trump Justice Department to release the transcripts from Todd Blanch's meetings with convicted sex trafficker and Jeffrey Epstein associate Ghislaine Maxwell. Senator Dick Durbin is our next guest. Stay with us. Also ahead, the late night comedians continue to lead the way confronting Donald Trump over the Epstein scandal while other institutions capitulate to him how the searing humor of the the late night host is hitting Trump where it hurts most at one of his most vulnerable political moments ever. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. Donald Trump's repeated dodges about whether or not he would pardon Jeffrey Epstein's associate Ghislaine Maxwell, along with his former personal lawyer and current deputy Attorney General Todd Blanchard as private meetings with her with Maxwell has Democrats sounding the alarm about the potential for corruption and self dealing and more cover ups, frankly. In a letter, Senate Judiciary ranking member Dick Durbin demanded answers about Blanche's meeting with Maxwell, noting that the meeting raises, quote, serious questions about the potential for a corrupt bargain. Senator Durbin writes this, quote, it is highly unusual, if not unprecedented for the deputy attorney general to conduct such an interview rather than line prosecutors who are familiar with the details of the case and can more readily determine if the witness is lying. Given her documented record of lying and her desire to secure early release, there are serious concerns that Ms. Maxwell may provide false information or selectively withhold information in return for a pardon or sentence commutation. Your false claim that the meeting is the first time DOJ has reached out to Ms. Maxwell also raises questions about the Trump administration's motives. Rather than engaging in this elaborate ruse, DOJ should simply release the Epstein files as Attorney General Bondi promised to do. This all comes amid an all out assault on the federal judiciary by the Trump administration. Yesterday, DOJ filed a misconduct complaint against Judge James Boasberg, who repeatedly ruled against the administration's mass deportation policies. The New York Times writes this, quote, the complaint says that Judge Boasberg had told the gathering that he believed the Trump administration would, quote, disregard rulings of federal courts and trigger a constitutional crisis. His remarks, the complaint says, amounted to an attempt to improperly influence Chief Justice Roberts and have undermined the integrity and impartiality of the judiciary. Joining our coverage is Democratic Senator Dick Durbin, ranking member of the Senate Judiciary Committee. Thank you so much for being here with us today.

[Dick Durbin]

Thanks, Nicole.

[Sam Stein]

Let's start with Donald Trump's. They were revelatory to me. I don't know if they were to you. Comments today about the Epstein matter, where he chalks up his dispute with Epstein to Epstein, quote, stealing women, young women, from his spa. Are you concerned or what are your thoughts about the ongoing revelations coming from Trump himself?

[Dick Durbin]

Time is not on the president's side when it comes to this controversy. It's time for him to come clean, make a disclosure of the documents held by the Department of Justice. I understand some parts will be redacted to protect innocent people, perhaps for national security. But the president making these spot comments on a daily basis is not helping his cause. The American people want to know what happened, and they'd like to know from a credible source like the Department of Justice disclosure of documents.

[Sam Stein]

What is your degree of confidence that some sort of pardon. I mean, how would you know if a pardon wasn't already promised to Maxwell if no transcripts are released from the Blanche Maxwell meetings?

[Dick Durbin]

Do you remember a time when a presidential pardon was an issue that showed up in the last few days of a presidency? And very few people talked about it in advance? Not with this president. Pardon is part of his daily breakfast. He gets up in the morning and I'm sure looks at a pardon list. And I don't exaggerate too much. I think he's gone too far with this. When he released the January 6, Rioters and Insurrectionists gave him a. A full and unconditional pardon. I wasn't a bit surprised that Ms. Maxwell was brought into this pardon conversation as part of this unprecedented visit by the Department of Justice to herself.

[Sam Stein]

She has made a pardon or commutation a condition for testifying before Congress. Are you interested in hearing her testimony if that is indeed the condition that would have to be met?

[Dick Durbin]

Look at the bottom line here. She's serving 20 years for human trafficking and the exploitation of children. The prosecution has said that she was a brazen liar when she testified before the court. Now she wants to come before a House Republican committee. She wants the questions in advance. She wants immunity, and she's hinting, not so tactfully, that pardon and Clemency may be her ultimate goal. If the president is foolish enough to even seriously consider giving this woman a pardon, he will pay a heavy price for it with the American people.

[Sam Stein]

Thank you for your correction. She's seeking immunity. But to your point that her end goal may indeed be a pardon is the question that seems to cross the ideological divide. I wonder what your thoughts are as a senior Democrat, that Trump's own voter are more aligned with the path you're pursuing in terms of transparency around Epstein, then they've probably been around any big question since Trump has been atop the Republican Party over the last nine years.

[Dick Durbin]

Well, that's an important point because one of my colleagues at lunch today said this has been a Republican problem for a long time. Now it's a much bigger deal. General population in America want to know the answers to these questions, what this girlfriend who's serving 20 years for lying to the government and for sexual exploitation of minors actually was involved in, who actually went to the island. What can she tell us about that? It's not something that I thought much about until this controversy has developed, but at this point, it is a national issue and a major one.

[Sam Stein]

Are there thoughts or ideas or brainstorms or conversations happening privately with Republicans? I mean, are you seeing bipartisan cooperation in terms of any interest in bringing the actual victims in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee?

[Dick Durbin]

You know, I haven't heard that suggestion and I'd be very cautious before I'd endorse it. I really feel for the victims and what they went through at that stage in their life. And we've got to be sensitive to that as much as anything that we talk about here. But the bottom line, as far as I'm concerned, is complete disclosure of the documents of the Department of Justice, with few exceptions when it comes to protecting the innocent. But beyond that, that's the only way we can get to the bottom of this. This is a situation that's getting worse by the day for this president.

[Sam Stein]

Before you go, I want to ask you about the attacks on Judge Boasberg from the Trump administration, a rather unfounded complaint. What is your reaction to the ongoing assault on the rule of law from this administration?

[Dick Durbin]

We can't be surprised that they are threatening federal judges who rule against them. The president has called them radical left leaning lunatics and everything you can think of. It's unheard of in the history of the United States that we've had this kind of language, our attitude by an administration. But if we're going to preserve the checks and balances in our Constitution, we've got to make sure that the courts are not discredited or diminished by threats from the executive. In this situation, the thought that they would turn this man in means that they're ignoring the Constitution, which says the only recourse is impeachment. I've been through those in Congress and in the Senate. It's a serious undertaking and seldom used in the history, history of our country. They want to make it a regular threat from this administration. It's going to diminish our Constitution.

[Sam Stein]

Senator Dick Durbin, so much to talk to you about today. Thank you for being so generous with your time and joining us.

[Dick Durbin]

Thanks, Nicole.

[Sam Stein]

When we come back, it is a dramatic shift and it comes at a critical time. How the late night comedians are on the attack and in subsequent instances, leading the conversation about Donald Trump as his presidency continues to be engulfed by the Jeffrey Epstein scandal. How they've stepped up their game after a short break.

[Donald Trump]

Monday, Scotland Tuesday, home Wednesday Epstein tell reporters I don't know. Thursday, steal a FIFA trophy, go online, talk trash at Rosie. Friday, see Fantastic four. I look just like the Human Torch. Bad inflation every day blame it all on Beyonce Bruise on hand is very sora. Add some makeup. Thanks, Sephora. Work then golf, then call from Vlad catch up on and just like that.

[Nicole Wallace]

Watch news south park smash the screen.

[Donald Trump]

Cry at night I miss Epstein work off Tangoff sugar Coke Call New Superman 2 Woke Tangoff Tan tan time for bed. But first, I have some things to shred.

[Sam Stein]

It is nothing less than remarkable and certainly newsworthy in a moment when your country is sliding precipitously toward autocracy. At this moment in American history, American culture, when the choice in front of our cultural icons and institutions is often capitulation or confrontation. And to choose humor is a radical act. And it's not just the stories and the news and the headlines that are breaking through that are worth notice. It's the people who decide to tell them now. So when the Epstein controversy came into focus, it's actually the late night hosts who've led the way.

[Donald Trump]

And today when reporters there asked him about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, he had an interesting way of defending himself.

[Nicole Wallace]

Watch this.

[Donald Trump]

I never went to the island. I never had the privilege of going to his island. Trump's staff was like a simple no would have been fine.

[Nicole Wallace]

I'm sorry, what?

[Tara Palmieri]

What?

[Nicole Wallace]

You never had the privilege of going to Epstein's island? Sadly, I never had the honor of dining with Jeffrey Dahmer. It just. Trump also explained why he parted ways.

[Donald Trump]

With Epstein for years, I wouldn't talk to Jeffrey Epstein. I wouldn't talk because he did something that was inappropriate.

[Nicole Wallace]

Finally, some moral backbone. He did something inappropriate and that was he hired help.

[Donald Trump]

And I said, don't ever do that again. He stole people that work for me. I said, don't ever do that again. He did it again and I threw him out of the place. Persona non grata. Yes.

[Sam Stein]

You all know him as Jeffrey.

[Donald Trump]

Epstein, the sex trafficker.

[Nicole Wallace]

But I knew his dark side.

[Dick Durbin]

He was, I mean, the sex trafficking.

[Donald Trump]

I was like, okay.

[Dick Durbin]

But he was also a low level employee poacher.

[Donald Trump]

And that I cannot have.

[Sam Stein]

Joining our conversation, executive editor of Deadline.com, dominic Patten is back. Also joining us, MSNBC columnist, author of the newsletter to the contrary, Charlie Sykes is here. Dominic, I've said that this is a story that is so unique in the Trump chapter of American politics and American culture in that we're being led by Trump's base, by some of the most vocal and most prolific voices in the base, people like Joe Rogan and Andrew Schultz. But in terms of the story and the revelations, some of the folks bringing it into the sharpest focus for its ludicrousness are the late night hosts who are having a moment on this story. Your thoughts?

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, look, I think, Nicole, satire, and I've said this to you before, I think is as American as apple pie. And I think this one is truly, if you're, if you're a late night host or you're even a daytime comic host or just someone who shows up at the improv, it kind of is a gift that keeps on giving. That clip you just showed, I mean, as Jimmy Fox Fallon said, a simple no would have sufficed to then say you didn't have the privilege of going to Jeffrey Island's, Jeffrey Epstein's sex island on his Lolita Express plane. You just muddy the water on this more and more. And I think that's really what a lot of this is is. This is one of those cases where the Trump White House or Trump world, they can't seem to find a way out of this. You know, one of the biggest criticisms we make of politicians over and over again is that they get stuck in a playbook and they just keep going with it until, you know, obviously that doesn't relate to reality. Their playbook has always been distraction, distraction. Look over there. Look on here. Look what I've done to get you to go somewhere else. None of it's working here. You mentioned Joe Rogan. I mean, Joe Rogan accuses you of gaslighting your own supporters when Megan come to you and stuff like that, you do find yourself in a place where suddenly you don't have a roadmap out of this.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. Charlie Sykes. I don't know that there are many political staffers who've lived through the searing permanence of a comedy depiction the way those of us who work for Sarah Palin lived through Tina Fey as Sarah Palin on snl. The thing about the depiction is it's forever. And you can debate a reporter about whether or not it's important to understand what a non proliferation agreement is. But you cannot take on the whole of American culture when you know, I can see Russia from my house is all that people know about your candidate. And this is. And I guess the only question I have is, does the White House realize that that's the moment they're in? Not a political scandal, but a cultural one?

[Nicole Wallace]

I think that Donald Trump does. If we think of Donald Trump as the executive producer of American politics and culture, we're now in season two of this particular drama. And I think that at some level, look, Donald Trump sees the whole world as a television show, right? He understands the drama, he understands the flow, he understands the mystery and the plot twist. And right now he can't control it, but he understands that this is far more compelling than a debate about international trade or non proliferation, as you said. So I don't know about the rest of the White House, but Donald Trump sees the world through the lens of that television screen, that movie screen. And the Epstein movie just keeps getting better. And to Dominic's point about the role of humor, I mean, he made the point last week when we were on that there's a long tradition of this and that autocrats and authoritarians have often feared that moment when people start laughing at them. Donald Trump wants people to be in awe of him. He wants people to be afraid of him. He does not want to be the butt of jokes. And that's what's happening right now.

[Sam Stein]

And as if on cue, he's tweeting about the late night host right now. I'm going to sneak in a break. I'll pull that up and read it to see if there's any news anyone needs to know. If not, we'll hear from John Oliver on the other side. Don't go anywhere.

[Nicole Wallace]

But even if that happens, I'm not sure it'll stop the questions because people aren't letting this go. When DHS and the White House posted this video announcing the TSA's new shoes on policy, comments on it included. So cool. What about the Epstein files?

[Claire McCaskill]

And TSA needs to check your shoes.

[Nicole Wallace]

They might find the Epstein files there. And this White House post about Trump's AI initiatives. Got comments like, where's the list? Donny? And Captain Cankles, where's the list? And look, maybe those files show nothing more than that Trump and Epstein are two creeps who enjoyed one another's company. Do I personally think that's possible, though? I'd like to answer that question. I think I'll plead the 4th, 12th and 22nd amendment. But even if that's the case, and Trump still eventually ends up consumed by a conspiracy monster he cynically helped create and now can't control, then at least that'll be a sliver of something that's frankly been in short supply in this whole Epstein store. And that is actual justice.

[Sam Stein]

We're back with Dominic and Charlie. So, Dominic, there was no news in Trump's tweet, just rage at the late night hosts. And I wonder what your theory is about whether that intimidates them or emboldens them.

[Nicole Wallace]

You know, Nicole, I think very up until recently, it probably would have intimidated them or at least their corporate overlords. But I think with the flood or the dam that south park broke last week, with their relentless and scathing satire on Trump, I think people smell blood in the water and I think that that's they're going to be just fine with. Keep on attacking.

[Sam Stein]

Charlie. I wonder your thoughts about whether that influences the politics. This is, as Senator Durbin just said, the rare issue for which there is bipartisan support among the American people.

[Nicole Wallace]

There is for now. And what's really striking about this is there's one unforced error after another by Donald Trump. And, you know, rather than distracting attention, if he in fact moves ahead with a commutation or a pardon of Ghislaine Maxwell, he's going to guarantee that this is going to be talked about for months and months and months. So not only is it the butt of jokes, but the seriousness and the price paid by the victims, I think is going to be front and center in American politics throughout the fall when Donald Trump desperately wants to be talking about something else. So this is again, one of the moments where every single step is he takes. Instead of getting rid of this story, it seems to amplify it and dig a deeper hole, which is really one of the reasons why this is such an extraordinary and unusual moment.

[Sam Stein]

Thank you guys for helping us track it. Dominic and Charlie, thank you very much for being here with us today. Another break for us. We'll be right back.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, what do they even have on Trump? A creepy drawing Trump gave to Epstein?

[Donald Trump]

Please. I don't do drawings. I'm not a drawing person. Your Honor, I submit to the court.

[Sam Stein]

If there is one thing I would.

[Donald Trump]

Never do, it is draw.

[Claire McCaskill]

We need to take back what is America about America. And what is our human.

[Nicole Wallace]

What is.

[Claire McCaskill]

And our shared humanity.

[Nicole Wallace]

And we can't become a.

[Claire McCaskill]

And nobody wants us to become a immigration police state.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, a few people.

[Claire McCaskill]

Stephen Miller does, but like that. Now, circling back to these bros, I do think that resonates with a broad part of the country, right?

[Nicole Wallace]

Like, we want to have laws, we want to have rules, but we don't want to be a police state where.

[Claire McCaskill]

Masked men are grabbing people off the street like this is China or Stalin's Russia.

[Nicole Wallace]

Like, that's not what people want.

[Sam Stein]

You, our beloved viewers, have made it loud and clear that if there's one thing you want more of, it's timid. Miller, we feel the same way. Tim is my guest on this week's episode of the Best People podcast. He breaks down everything from why the outrage over the Jeffrey Epstein scandal is breaking through to what Democrats need to put on their hats in 2028. Just scan the QR code on your screen or download it wherever it gets your podcasts. Give it a listen and let me know what you think. One more break. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes. We are grateful.

[Nicole Wallace]

Hi there, it's Andy Richter, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast, the Three Questions with Andy Richter. Each week I invite friends, comedians, actors and musicians to discuss these three questions. Where do you come from, where are you going, and what have you learned? New episodes are out every Tuesday with guests like like Julie Bowen, Ted Danson, Tig Notaro, Will Arnett, Phoebe Bridgers, and more. You can also tune in for my weekly Andy Richter call in show episodes where me and a special guest invite callers to weigh in on topics like dating, disasters, bad teachers, and lots more. Listen to the three Questions with Andy Richter wherever you get your podcast.