← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
“Does not seem to be fading”
00:42:32
Alicia Menendez, in for Nicolle Wallace, on the Jeffrey Epstein files scandal that won't go away, however much the White House wants it to.
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Host/Anchor
What they're trying to do with the Epstein hoax is get people to talk about that instead of speaking about the tremendous success like ending seven wars. I ended seven wars. Nobody's going to talk about because they're going to talk about the Epstein. Whatever. Really. I think it's enough because I think we should talk about the greatness of our country and the success that we're having.
- [01:25]
Alicia Menendez
Hi again everyone. It is five o' clock here in New York. I'm Alicia Menendez in for Nicole Wallace. It may be, quote, enough for Donald Trump, but that's not how a majority of America thinks about it. There is significant public interest in releasing all of the information around the Epstein files, and that interest does not seem to be fading anytime soon. Congressmen Thomas Massie and Ro Khanna now have, thanks to a special election in Arizona earlier This week, the 218 votes needed for their discharge petition, which would force a vote on the House floor to have Trump's Justice Department release all the files. But as we have seen over the past few months, Trump and his administration do not want this going any further, According to new reporting from cnn, even Trump's allies in Congress are now working to quiet the issue. Quote, top congressional Republicans and White House allies are working behind the scenes to prevent a politically charged floor vote to release the government's Jeffrey Epstein case files next month, according to multiple sources familiar with the discussions. While the exact strategy to avoid a vote is not yet clear, some of the GOP lawmakers who have signed on are privately being pressured to withdraw their name from the petition, which would prevent a vote from taking place, one of those sources said. Meanwhile, an extensive report in the Wall Street Journal pulls the curtain back on how the Epstein saga has roiled the administration for months. From that reporting, White House officials said they underestimated how sticky the issue would prove to be, believing it would blow over and people would move on. Instead, it spurred White House situation room meetings and months of strategizing by senior administration officials. Disagreements, finger pointing, disorganization and unforced errors by Trump advisers made the problem worse. Attorney General Pam Bondi complained to other officials that FBI leadership was, quote, trying to destroy her by leaking information about internal discord, according to people familiar with the disputes. Other administration officials who tried to repair the ties concluded the issue had spiraled, largely because the Justice Department and Federal Bureau of Investigation had mishandled it. All of this coming down to the fact that Trump, despite riling up his base about this issue for years and stoking conspiracy theories, now wants his supporters to stop asking about Epstein. More from the Journal's report. Trump has told aides he was worried some of his friends might might be mentioned in the files and has complained that people should be talking about the administration's wins, not about Epstein, according to people familiar with the comments. Other times, he worried aloud that the files might have been doctored to hurt him. The White House's attempts to make the Epstein scandal go away is where we begin this hour with MSNBC's senior White House correspondent Vaughn Hilliard. Also with us, opinion writer for the New York Times, MSNBC political analyst Mara Gay. And Claire is back with us. All right, Vaughn. I mean, pretty amazing that he's, he riled up his base for years over this issue and then was surprised by the fact that it actually proved to be sticky. Just talk us through your reporting on how this scandal is playing out inside the White House. Right.
- [04:28]
Vaughn Hilliard
This is a political leader that effectively has been able over the last decade to convince his base to either all but ignore serious allegations like sexual misconduct. He went on the road, he campaigned for people like Roy Moore, campaigned for a great many people that had faced serious sexual misconduct allegations and yet didn't really face any political blowback. Right after January 6th, he was able to effectively martyr the defendants that attacked the Capitol. And so this was somebody that felt like he had built up such political capital that he would be able to explain and be able to get this major issue pushed aside. But here he is, he's facing the reality now after seven months in office that there is going to be enough signatures to sign that discharge petition in the US House to go and force the DOJ to turn over the Epstein files and allow them to be published. But if it does pass the House, then it's going to be before that point happens, it's going to get turned over to the Senate Republicans. And so I think there's a lot of questions here that the President is going to continue to have to face. But there is in the Wall Street Journal reporting the suggestion that some close friends and allies of his are named inside of these records and he wanted to protect them. And of course, there is that sensitivity, that balance between protecting individuals that do not have enough evidence that the DOJ finds worthy to bring charges against. But then also the public interest that clearly he helped ignite over the course of the last five years, along with his allies, to suggest that those are the very types of names that should be released to the public. And so now he has this sticky ball in his hands and he's having a hard time getting it off of it. And now it is going to come down to some Republican lawmakers down the Pennsylvania Avenue to determine exactly the next steps forward. And to the extent that the President is going to remain silent or openly promote that this proceeding to move forward.
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Alicia Menendez
Claire, I think it is notable based on that reporting that you have Republican leadership really leaning on the folks who've already signed the discharge petition to take their names off of it, who have committed to signing the discharge petition to take their names off it. And they seem to be holding firm.
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Host/Anchor
Right.
- [06:42]
Alicia Menendez
The normal pressure campaign, Claire, does not seem to be working.
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Claire McCaskill
Yeah, I think if it was going to work, it would have already worked by now. I think these folks have put the flag in the ground and they are going to continue to keep their names on that petition. I believe it will have a vote in the House. I believe there will be more than those folks that are Republicans that will vote for it in the House. Then it comes down to the Senate. And this gets really interesting, Alicia, because we now have some senators who have real opposition next year. For example, this senator from Ohio that no one knows that well, that just took J.D. vance's place. He's now got Sherrod Brown running against him. He's got a very tough vote. You've got Susan Collins in Maine. You got a very tough vote there. You've got John Cornyn in Texas. He has a very tough vote. I think even the senator from Mississippi may end up with a serious Democratic opponent down in Mississippi. She has a very tough vote. So you look at these senators and you see them going really where going to have to spend political capital keeping the Epstein files secret. This is not going to be a political winner for the Republican Party. And believe me, those members of Congress know it. They know it a lot better than Donald Trump does.
- [07:59]
Alicia Menendez
This is just all spun out of control narratively so quickly. And Ty Cobb, formerly the president's lawyer, said this. This may be the worst managed PR event in history. You've got multiple mouthpieces, and they're all covering their own word. I'm not allowed to say on tv. Let's go with t. The fact that he doesn't want to talk about this, he's pivoting to lies, like, apparently seven wars that he has ended, an economy that he describes as, you know, being on fire, when in reality, it's in the tank. I'm not sure he even has a positive narrative to pivot to.
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Mara Gay
Well, no, he doesn't. And in some ways, given the way Americans are experiencing the economy, given the fact that there are masked federal agents abrogating people's civil liberties on the streets, on US Streets, you know, this is a distraction right now, and it's terrible for him. I mean, one thing that happened is in September, when the Epstein estate released that birthday book, what you saw is that there was a note from the president to Epstein wishing him a happy birthday that the president had said didn't exist. And I think that really poured some fuel on this fire. And so now you're getting a little bit of a breadcrumb trail that is keeping this story alive. And, you know, it's just, like, very understandable that Americans want to know at this point, after years, as you said, Alicia, of the president himself stoking the story. They want full transparency. This is something that Donald Trump has promised them. He said he was going to drain the swamp. How does this gel with that? I don't think it does. I think the thing that's more interesting in the bigger picture, though, is that this is one of the first significant ruptures we've seen within the base between the President and the MAGA base. And so what you're seeing is that members of Congress on the Republican side of the aisle are looking at that as an opportunity to get some Runway, to get some distance from this president and start really exercising their role as members of Congress who can serve as a check on this president. Now, how far that goes, we don't know. But as this thread continues to be pulled, as these files are released, and I believe they are likely to come out, you know, the reaction, I mean, depending on what's in the files. This rupture could grow between the president and his base. It's a little early to say for sure what's going to happen, but clearly he's afraid of whatever is in that file. He doesn't want it to come out. And his aides, you know, as per my colleagues reporting, they are eager to quash this story and they've been unable to do so.
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Alicia Menendez
It's so wild to move on thinking about the political landscape that Claire McCaskill just laid out for us and the fact that in normal times, the head of the National Republican Senate Committee would call the president of the United States or their chief of staff and say, hi, you're tanking a bunch of my races with this nonsense. Please turn this ship around. But it doesn't seem that this president is actually concerned or easily moved by the political realities of the legislative bodies that he works with. What happens in a Senate race, Is that actually Vaughn calculating part of his calculus?
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Vaughn Hilliard
Right. So far in 2025, he hasn't had to worry too much about what is happening down on Capitol Hill. And I think that this is where that difference when with political campaigns is different than the decisions and the levers within the executive branch that he holds on to exist. And that is to suggest. Right. In the case of John Kennedy, the Louisiana Republican senator telling Cash Patel very directly on Capitol Hill last week while he was testifying that this issue is not going away. Why does he say that? He knows that his constituents have for years told him and told Republican lawmakers that they wanted them, these Republicans, back into office, including Donald Trump, in order to release these files because they are the ones that have been making a very strong case about the sexual assault that existed at the hands of Jeffrey Epstein. But even a larger cabal that has been alleged that goes beyond Jeffrey Epstein, that includes associates, Democrats, celebrities, a cabal that frankly, there's a lot in which there is no clear evidence that does exist to many of their claims. But that was a promise that was promoted out on the campaign trail for the last many years. And so suddenly, here the president, it's a much easier thing to campaign. But suddenly he has now implemented and put these individuals largely into power on these very promises. Who are those people? Cash Patel, Pam Bondi. Right. If you look at Thomas Massie, if you look at Marjorie Taylor Greene, some of these Republican lawmakers, those that want to sign the discharge petition and others that don't, they know that they are in the precarious situation because this isn't 2017 2018, where they couldn't give Donald Trump credit for them being in Washington, D.C. each of these players that we are discussing, they largely got into office on the back of Donald Trump. And so that is where in that for the case of them and the president of the United States, this isn't just out on the road campaign issue now. This is one in which they have to make the decision. And ultimately the voters are going to determine about 13 months from now whether they made the right actions and whether the efforts to release and be transparent were enough in their eyes.
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Alicia Menendez
Well, that's in November. We have a deadline coming up before that bond, which is whether or not this discharge petition actually moves forward in early October. Last night, my colleagues, Michael Steele, Simone Sanders Townsend, I spoke with a ranking member of the House Oversight Committee, Robert Garcia, and here's what he told us about the timing of that discharge petition.
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Host/Anchor
We need the Senate to also be engaged in all of this.
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Alicia Menendez
We don't have it. He was concerned about the timing and he thought that Republicans might be willing to, to throw the game over this, actually sort of hide under the cloak of the shutdown. Vaughn, in order to not have to deal with this discharge petition. I wonder what your reporting is telling you about the timeline here.
- [14:38]
Vaughn Hilliard
Right. I think it's notable that Speaker Mike Johnson has so far been quiet about this timing here. Not only is the government set to shut down here next week, but there's also a question of when Speaker Mike Johnson will allow Adelita Grijalva, the newly elected Democratic congresswoman from the greater Tucson, Arizona area, to be sworn in. Technically, her election will be wholly certified in the middle of October down in Arizona. But there is a debate that exists over whether she could be sworn in to begin her official duties sooner than that as Democrats make the case that they want her to be. And so Speaker Mike Johnson has been mum on this. And of course, to Robert Garcia's point here, it calls into question here the exact machinations of this and what Republican lawmakers that are opposed to this Disharge petition, exactly what their approach is going to be to try to potentially try to stymie this from ever coming to a full House for a vote.
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Alicia Menendez
Claire McCaskill, what do you think Speaker Johnson does here?
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Claire McCaskill
I think he does his very best behind the scenes to do what Trump wants. That's what he always does. But I think this is one that he can't control. I think this issue is bigger than Mike Johnson and frankly, I think it's going to be proved to be bigger than Donald Trump.
- [15:55]
Alicia Menendez
This is going to be interesting to watch, Mara, from the vantage point of what you raised, which is you do see a subset of congressional Republicans beginning to finally distance themselves. There is a fissure here. Mike Johnson has had an extremely difficult job of keeping this caucus together. He has somehow managed to do it. The fact that this would be the issue it falls apart on in light of the fact that he is trying at the same time in tandem to deal with a government shutdown, it feels like a boiling point.
- [16:26]
Mara Gay
Well, it is. But what you're also seeing is that he wants no part of the flack that his colleagues are going to get for standing up to the White House on this. I do agree with Claire that if Congressman Massie was going to stand down against the White House pressure campaign, he would have done so. The problem for the White House is they can't really say much publicly to go after these members of Congress who are willing to vote to release the files because Trump's own base wants them released. And so the same tailwinds that have been pushing him in American life for the past decade are actually now serving these Republican members of Congress. So it's an unusual situation, I think. Again, the question, though, is, first of all whether survivors of Epstein see justice, which I think includes transparency. Absolutely. And the other question is whether this is just a one issue kind of ordeal or whether this is the beginning of more daylight between Republican members of Congress and this White House.
- [17:32]
Alicia Menendez
Glenn Hilliard, thank you so much for starting us off this hour. Claire Anwara, you are sticking around. When we return, stunning new reporting that Defense Secretary Pete Higseth is ordering a rare urgent meeting of hundreds of this country's top generals and admirals. For reasons even they do not know, it comes as Hexag is making sweeping changes at the Pentagon in an effort to consolidate control of the military. That reporting and reaction from a former general is next. Also ahead, why there is growing confidence in Ukraine's ability to wage war against Russia, our friend. And Appledown on what she saw inside, a Ukrainian drone factor in. And a new warning from former President Barack Obama about where America is right now on the road to authoritarianism. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Stay with us.
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Alicia Menendez
An alarming and bizarre turn of events, the Washington Post is reporting that Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth has said summoned the top generals and admirals from around the world for a meeting in Virginia with zero stated reason. The highly unusual directive was sent to virtually all of the military's top commanders worldwide, according to more than a dozen people familiar with the matter. It was issued earlier this week against the backdrop of a potential government shutdown and as Hegsath's overtly political moves have deepened a sense of distress among his opponents, who fear that he is erasing the Defense Department's status as a nonpartisan institution. Hegseth's order, people familiar with the matter said, applies to all senior officers with the rank of brigadier general or above, or their Navy equivalent serving in command positions and their top enlisted advisors. The demand from Hegseth also creates potential security issues, the Post adds this quote. None of the people who spoke with the Post could recall a defense secretary ever ordering so many of the military's generals and admirals to assemble like this. Several said it raised security concerns. People are very concerned. They have no idea what it means, one person said. Are we Taking every general and flag officer out of the Pacific right now. One US Official said all of it is weird. Want to bring into the conversation retired US Army Lieutenant General Mark Hertling. Claire and Mara are still with me. All right, General Hertling, your first reaction when you read about Hegseth calling this meeting?
- [21:37]
Host/Anchor
Well, Alicia, you said it was unusual. What I'd say is, if this is usual and this is unusual, we're way out here. This is something I've never seen before, and it causes all kinds of potential problems. But we don't know what he's talking about. And I don't want to suggest that I do know. I don't know if flag officers around the world got a message that gave more indications of what was going to be discussed, but it's certainly raising a bunch of issues of what could be the topic, what's the agenda, what's expected of us. But this is a whole lot of flag officers. And by the way, army generals don't have an equivalent in the Navy. The Navy has admirals. They're called flag officers across the board.
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Alicia Menendez
Thank you for that clarification. Understanding that you do not know, you don't have any special information about why he would have called this meeting. Can you think of any reason why it would be reasonable or historically where you have seen this done?
- [22:37]
Host/Anchor
Yeah, not historically done before, but what I'd say is there's a couple of reasons why he might be calling. This could be shifting national security strategy norms, cuts to the general officer corps. This is something that he's talked about several times. He's floated it to shrink the number of flag officers in the military. It could be a preparation for a potential budget stalemate next week. That's going to happen. It may be his concerns over leaks. Secretary Hegseth has fired 12 senior ranking general officers so far. He could be firing more. Is it performative theater? I had a sergeant who I used to serve with write me a little while ago, and he said maybe he's just doing a payday safety briefing, which is something inside the military that you do on payday to make sure your troops know not to drink and drive or get in trouble downtown after they get paid, which next Tuesday is a payday. So we're looking at inside disruptions and what it may mean to us as a nation. But I'd say one more thing. Foreign nations, our friends and foes, are also looking at this. This would be a bright red light on an indicator chart of what the heck is going on in the United States with Their military.
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Alicia Menendez
Do you have any security concerns about the fact that all of these people are gathering?
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Host/Anchor
Yeah, I do. Not only security concerns, but budget concerns. You're talking about sending. And again, I don't know how many. The Post reported 800. I think that might be a small number because you're talking about not only the flag officers, but also their senior enlisted advisors, their sergeant majors, and their Navy chiefs. So you've got probably more than 1,000 people, if you don't count AIDS and security details and commo teams that normally accompany senior ranking officials to keep them connected to their command. So there's going to be a lot more than what's expected at Quantico. But the second thing is when you put that many people in a group, you have to ask two questions. Number one, is it a target? And number two, what's going on back at their home station? Who's in charge? It's normally a deputy, but the world could be disrupted on this. The other thing I'd mention is the cost of this. This will be extravagant. And if you're talking about the announcement today, on Thursday, imagine if you're the commander of Pacific Command or you're in Korea, you've got a 15 hour flight to Washington D.C. they've got to get on some kind of aircraft. Not all of these individuals have planes that they can use. So you're talking about a whole lot of people coming into either Reagan or Dulles and then transferring to Quantico. So it's not only security, it's just the hotel rooms, the cars, the travel. All of those things are going to play a part as well.
- [25:22]
Alicia Menendez
Claire, the number of in person meetings I have been to where I'm like, this just really could have been a zoom. The thing that makes this so scary, beyond everything that was just laid out, is that it's just the latest in a series of chaotic decisions by Hegseth, including, I know you followed the story. Making journalists covering the Pentagon sign a pledge not to report information without official approvement, his endorsement of comments that women shouldn't be allowed to vote, his shuttering of a committee created to expand the role of women in the military. And then, of course, lest we forget, signal gate. I just have to wonder at what point your Republican colleagues, your former colleagues, start to lose patience with Hegseth specifically.
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Claire McCaskill
Well, I can tell you this for sure. Behind closed doors, the Senate Republicans that serve on the Armed Services Committee are going to what that is going on. And let me just underline something the general said. The general said it's way expensive. It is. We're facing a government shutdown, A government that likes to posture about how they want to save money and fire people and they're going to spend millions of dollars. Okay. Now and then you have the security issue. We have thousands of the very top. And when I say top, I mean the best. The best military leaders in the world are going to be pulled off jobs at great disruption in terms of what goes on, in terms of leadership. So you've got security, you've got expense. But really the one he mentioned that I think is really important is instability. Our military, I mean, we already have a leader that is all over the map. You know, first he's against Ukraine, then he's for Ukraine, or then he's against NATO, then he's for NATO, then he's firing this person, then he's not. Our stability on the world stage when it comes to our military is incredibly important to Americans in terms of us staying safe. And what this is signaling. I don't care what this guy says. There's nothing he says in this meeting that couldn't be communicated to the troops more effectively and more efficiently. And nobody knows that more than the leaders that are being called into Washington. So he can prove he's in charge. And I guarantee you there'll be a performative aspect of this because that's what this guy is. He's a TV guy. He wants some TV for Trump because Trump loves tv. And I am beside myself that he's abusing the military this way. And every American should be.
- [27:54]
Alicia Menendez
Well, General Herling, stay on that point. I mean, if this is in fact performative and all of these people have real jobs and real responsibilities are flown in for this show of political theater, if it is in fact that, how do you think they respond? Does that frustration ever reach the surface?
- [28:12]
Host/Anchor
I'm hearing the frustrations already from some of my active duty friends, Alicia. It's just one of the comments I heard from an old colleague today was, this is so unnecessary in the digital age. And I'll give an example of what we're talking about here. During the early days of the war on terror, I was a one star general, having just returned from Iraq. I was in Europe and I was the chief of operations. Every Saturday there was a worldwide secure video teleconference. This is security stuff. This isn't Zoom, this isn't Snapchat or any of the other kind of signals apps. This was on a secure VTC which every commander has. We would have a three hour meeting every Saturday all over the world where people were tuning in from Europe, from Korea, from Asia, from the Middle east and they were all on different time zones somewhere in the middle of the night, some of them were the middle of the afternoon. But for the entire time of the war on terrorism, we would have those videos every Saturday. I'm not sure what could require this face to face meeting other than what Senator McCaskill just said. It's performative. And not only are we talking about bringing these hundreds if not thousands of people to Quantico, everybody in the two and a half million force, military force that we have are out there thinking, what's going on with the boss today? What's happening in D.C. why is he doing this? And the rumor mill is already generating in epic proportions right now from not the generals but from the colonels and the sergeants and the privates. They don't know what's going on and it's disruptive.
- [29:54]
Alicia Menendez
General Mark Kirtland, thank you so much for your expertise, for sharing it with us. Claire McCaskill, as always, thank you. When we return, the reason behind the Newfoundland optimism that Ukraine may well be able to regain the territory it's lost to Russia. There is brand new reporting on that from our friend and Applebaum is going to join us after a quick break.
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Alicia Menendez
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- [33:00]
Anne Applebaum
So the Ukrainians were expecting early on in the war that enormous losses of human life would be the thing they needed to achieve in order to persuade the Russians to stop fighting. But as time went on, they understood that that wasn't the case, that the Russians would fight regardless of how many of their soldiers died. What they decided instead, what they determined instead was that the Russians did feel pain when they lost money. And this main source of their money, both of the oligarchs money, but also of the money that goes into the Russian state budget, is Russian oil exports, oil and gas exports, but primarily oil exports. And they decided to focus their long range drone campaign on hitting those targets and they began to develop their own drones. I was in a factory that produces them. These are very large drones. They look like small airplane planes. They're not the little tiny ones. They're not toys or wedding drones. And they are, they can fly, you know, for saying in the air for seven hours at a time. They can carry large amounts of explosives. And they've been focusing these drones on most on the refineries that are within their range, which is more than a dozen have been hit, as well as on oil pipelines and other kinds of objects. And recently, just in the last couple of months, they began to have quite a lot of success. We know this both because of pictures that appear on social media of things blowing up. Usually there's someone in the region who takes a video and shows his wife. And that's one way that we know. Of course, the Ukrainians have satellite pictures. But the more important way that we know is that there are now fuel shortages all over Russia. There are fuel shortages in Crimea, in central Russia and eastern Russia, and then apparently even in the last few days in the suburbs of Moscow and St. Petersburg. So I should add there are also Russian exports. Oil exports are now at the lowest they've been since the war began. So Ukrainians can see the effect of what they're doing and they're looking to expand that campaign and they're also looking for Russian, excuse me, for European and American help.
- [35:13]
Alicia Menendez
And I wonder how you view the President's about face flip flop this week in light of your reporting. Is it reactive to what is new here?
- [35:26]
Anne Applebaum
It's very hard for me to predict or make sense of what the President says since he changes his policy so often. I'm guessing that he heard something of this story from President Zelenskyy and then he reflected it. Some feel that the statement he made was also an indication that he's understood that his negotiations aren't working and that he's bowing out of the war. I don't know whether that's the case either. I mean, I think the important things here to understand are that the Ukrainians are moving ahead with this policy regardless of what the United States does. Of course they would like American help and there are ways the US could help help with both with long range weapons and funding and other things. But the drone manufacturers that I spoke to and have been speaking to actually over the last couple of years are very focused on producing weapons that are not dependent on any US Technology. So they understand that the President's moods may swing back and forth, they might go this way or that way, but they would like to be able to continue their program regardless. And that is the place that we are now that the Ukrainians are. This is their policy. They were the ones who designed. This is their technology. They're the ones who built it and they are carrying this plan out.
- [36:41]
Alicia Menendez
Mara, what we have heard from a broad cross section of experts on a broad range of issues is do not pay attention to what the president says, pay attention to what he actually does. And that seems to apply here.
- [36:53]
Mara Gay
Well, that's right. I mean, also the Ukrainians, this is first and foremost their country, their war. And they have learned enormously about how to fight the Russians. And so they're getting better at that. And it sounds like Russia is feeling the pain. I mean, I think any kind of independence that they can have but also show to Europe and the US Is probably going to help them get more support from their allies as well. So that's going to, you can imagine too, and I'm sure that Claire McCaskill, if she was still here, would affirm this, that there are Republicans in Congress right now who are looking at that program and saying, well, that really increases my confidence in the Ukrainians and they're more likely to support them. So clearly this is working for them. And we'll see what the Russian response is.
- [37:42]
Alicia Menendez
All right, Mara and Ann, you are both staying with me. When we return former President Barack Obama with a warning about where we are as a country right now as Donald Trump steers us further away from our democratic norms. Former President Barack Obama delivered a chilling warning yesterday in London about what he called creeping authoritarian tendencies under Donald Trump, the kind of view Obama said that Russian President Vladimir Putin quote, very much believes driving us further and further from democratic norms.
- [38:16]
Barack Obama
Take a listen in the United States right now, what's ascendant, and my successor has not been particularly shy about it. The desire is to go back to a very particular way of thinking about America where we the people, it's just some people, not all people. The challenge we face is not just to fight against these creeping authoritarian tendencies, but it's also to be reflective about how is it that we lost.
- [39:08]
Host/Anchor
Support.
- [39:08]
Barack Obama
For that earlier vision, that better story.
- [39:14]
Alicia Menendez
We are back with Ann and with Mara. Ann, you've reported extensively on autocracy, Russia, Hungary, for example. Your reaction to former President Obama saying that kind of thinking is growing here in the United States.
- [39:28]
Anne Applebaum
I think he's right to point to the idea of the American story. This is something he's always spoken about, he spoke about very eloquently all through his career because there is something like a national narrative or a shared identity that nations have. And our nation is a particular, it has a particular kind of narrative because we aren't derived from one ethnicity. We don't have a 10,000 year history. We are put together. We come together from many different peoples and were based. We were created around a set of ideas originally. And the change in those ideas and the shift that we've experienced in the last decade, I think you can date it back to that is probably the most important element. I mean, it's the most important. It's the source of our polarization and the source of our violent politics, actually, right now. So he's right to talk about that, and he's right to say that the attempt to overthrow that narrative, the unifying narrative, and to replace it with something narrower, something that only a minority can have, that only a minority of Americans are real Americans, that's very dangerous to democracy. It's dangerous to our future. And it's also something that we have seen happen in other places. So when you have a small group of people saying only we deserve to rule and only we are real and only we are allowed to have power, that's when you begin to get autocratic breakdown.
- [41:02]
Alicia Menendez
It has been so interesting, Mara, to watch former President Obama sort of poke his head up, tiptoe back into this conversation and this discourse. And it has been a reminder to me of how desperate Americans are for a leader figure that they can latch onto and follow the way. And it's interesting to me because in as much as he has been sort of on this. This beat about democracy, he also said something about Donald Trump's spectacle with broad claims against the science that pregnant women shouldn't take Tylenol, take a listen.
- [41:38]
Barack Obama
That undermines public health, the degree to which that can do harm to women who are pregnant, the degree to which that creates anxiety for parents who do have children who are autistic, which, by the way, itself is subject to a spectrum. And a lot of what is being trumpeted as these massive increases actually have to do with a broadening of the criteria across that spectrum. All of that is violence against the truth.
- [42:28]
Mara Gay
You know, President Obama has come under a lot of criticism from Democrats for not using his voice more forcefully. I do suspect that for many years, and those around him will say this, that he's taken a step back in part to turn the temperature down, but. But in part in the hopes that other Democratic leaders and voices can emerge. And certainly that that has happened. But, you know, it's really a critical time for all Americans, especially in positions of leadership, past, present, who can speak out about what is happening in this country and what is happening to this democracy that they do so. And I think one of the most chilling things we are experiencing right now is just this sense that the number of Americans who are willing to speak out critically about the president and this administration or who are able to is quickly diminishing and dwindling. And that's scary. And I think that that is a good reason for former President Obama to use his voice in this way, even though I think there's a lot more he could have said. It's interesting, Ann pointed out he really talking about story, which she's right. This is something he has used throughout his career. And the American story really in some ways can be understood as a long, slow, painful broadening of a country that was based on really limited democracy and has a vision for a multiracial and more liberal democracy. And, you know, right now, we're enmeshed in a backlash against that. And so the vision for multiracial democracy still exists in the hearts of so many Americans. It exists in communities across the country. And I think in some way what the president was saying is, you know, we need to and we, meaning Americans, not Democrats or Republicans, we need to embrace that vision or it will die.
- [44:34]
Alicia Menendez
Anne Applebaum, Mara Gay, thank you both so much for joining us today. A quick break and then we're going to be right back. Donald Trump, in just the last few hours, signed a slew of executive orders, one of them backing the American TikTok deal and then celebrating that it will benefit billionaires that are close to him, including Rupert Murdoch, Michael Dow, and Larry Ellison, according to the latest Bloomberg rankings, is the world's richest person. Our colleagues at CNBC reported earlier today that his company, Oracle, will oversee the app's security operations and his Trump allies will take over the US Operations of the company. That opens up questions over just what sort of content TikTok users will be pushed towards by the algorithm. When reporters asked Trump if he wanted more MAGA content on the app, he joked, quote, if I could, I'd make it 100% MAGA. Related. Sounds delightful. Another break for us. We'll be right back. Anybody out there who's feeling overwhelmed by the chaos of the Trump administration? Anybody who thinks they cannot make a difference? Well, legendary singer and activist Joan Baez wants to have a word with you.
- [45:45]
Anne Applebaum
We may not be able to turn the tide, but we can certainly save some fishes. The other thing I have said and I think is true is denial is your friend right now. And I would suggest that we all live about 85% of the time in denial, because otherwise we'll get extremely depressed. And then with the other 10% or 15%, go and do something. And when you feel as though, well, I can't do anything. It's not enough. It's not enough. May not be enough for you, but it's certainly enough for the little fish that you're advocating for.
- [46:22]
Alicia Menendez
We may not be able to turn the tide, but we can save some fishes. Joan Baez is Nicole's guest on the Best People this week. Scan the QR code on your screen to watch on YouTube or download this week's episode. Wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for spending spending part of this Thursday with us. We are grateful Nicole will be back tomorrow.
- [46:41]
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