← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
"Doesn't mean you can pick and choose"
00:43:20
Nicolle Wallace on the press corps uniting almost unilaterally rallying against the Pentagon's new restrictions on what journalists covering the Department of Defense can report on.
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- [00:01]
Nicole Wallace
The connection between the guests on the show is the show. All that we do is put together people who are smart, people who are brave, people who are honest, and lots of times people who've never met each other. To have a conversation that has never happened before but on that day deepens everyone's understanding about the moment in which we gather.
- [00:22]
MSNBC Announcer
Deadline White House with Nicole Wallace, weekdays from 4 to 6pm Eastern on MSNBC. Start your day with the MSNBC Daily newsletter. Sharp insights from voices you trust, standout moments from your favorite shows, and fresh perspectives from experts shaping the news. Sign up now@msnbc.com.
- [00:49]
Nicole Wallace
I'm a very strong person for free speech, but 97, 94, 95, 96% of the people are against me in the sense of the, the newscasts are against me. When somebody is given 97% of the stories are bad about a person. That's no longer free speech. Hmm. Hi again Everybody. It's now five o'clock in New York. You can't have it both ways. Free speech doesn't mean you can pick and choose just the speech that you like. It means all speech is protected. And not just is it protected, but the fact that it is outlined in the Constitution's very First Amendment speaks to how important it was to our founders. No matter how loud Donald Trump likes to blurt that expression, quote, I'm a very strong free speech person. His actions tell a different story as well as the actions of those in his administration. The latest infringement comes from the Pentagon. Pete Hegseth restricting what journalists there who cover the Defense Department can report on going very much against that key pillar of the First Amendment. We have just passed a 5pm deadline for the Pentagon press corps to sign onto a policy to Pete Hegg says Pentagon put forward, which the New York Times reports this way, quote, the 21 page Pentagon document lays out a number of requirements at odds with freedom of press protections, according to lawyers representing news organizations. One is a provision stating that journalists could be deemed a, quote, security risk based on several considerations, including whether they disclose classified or even unclassified information without the Pentagon's authorization. Media lawyers worry that the stricture could expose reporters to punishment for engaging in routine reporting. Among those not signing onto the Pentagon's new policy, pretty much all of them. Every news outlet, including msnbc, the Washington Post, the New York Times, the Associated Press, importantly, Newsmax and many others have all come forward saying they will not approve of this violation of the First Amendment. Even Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth's own former employer, Fox News, is saying it does not agree with the new Pentagon policy. One America News is the only outlet who has signed on. In a statement, the Pentagon Press association said this quote, this Wednesday, most Pentagon Press association members seem likely to hand over their badges rather than acknowledge a policy that gags Pentagon employees and threatens retaliation against reporters who seek out information that has not been pre approved for release. Our members did nothing to create this disturbing situation. It arises from an entirely one sided move by Pentagon officials apparently intent upon cutting the American public off from information they do not control and pre approve. What will be lost will be answers to vital questions about what the Department of Defense is doing on a daily basis. Things like the latest strike of another boat accused of allegedly carrying drugs in waters off Venezuela and killing six people on board. As for how this pushback is playing among the leadership at the Pentagon, Pete Hegseth responded to multiple agencies statements with an emoji of a hand waving. I guess that's leadership for him. This infringement on a cornerstone of American democracy, the freedom of the press, something that MAGA folks used to talk about a whole lot, is just one example of what Ann Applebaum writes about today in the Atlantic. How America's beacon of democracy is going dark. Quote, Trump's own attacks on radical left judges and fake news media now travel the world much faster than we hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal did. Trump's attacks on the press and the First Amendment is where we begin the hour with some of our most favorite experts and friends. Staff writer for the Atlantic and author of Autocracy Inc. And Applebaum is back. Plus President of Media Matters for America Angelo Carazone joins us as well. And joining me at the table again, the reporter who flagged this story for us yesterday, Oliver Darcy. He's the author of the newsletter Status, which covers all things media. You brought the deadline to our attention yesterday and the fact that no one had signed on, including Fox, there are not a lot of examples of everyone standing together. But I think the other side of that coin is there are not a lot of examples of something so egregious that the North Koreans would blush and say, you know, give me back my press guideline. How do you see this story?
- [05:26]
Oliver Darcy
Yeah, I see it exactly as how you laid it out there. It's like Pete Hegseth wants these reporters to be North Korean style propagandists where they go on the air and they only repeat government talking points. They parrot what the government is telling them is okay to say and they're not permitted to do anything else. They are basically saying the act of reporting, the act of getting the real story behind the scenes is a criminal act. And they're asking reporters to acknowledge that, to sign a document acknowledging that. Obviously no news organization's gonna go on with this. And so basically every single news organization has, including Fox News, has said, well, no thank you, P. Hexeth, we'll just leave the Pentagon. And so what he's really doing is expelling the press from the Pentagon. And I just cannot stress how hypocritical this is coming from a man who talked about how liberals want safe spaces cuz they're so emotional and they can't stand scrutiny. And here he is constructing a massive safe space around the Pentagon.
- [06:25]
Nicole Wallace
Well, and I mean, let's deal with Pete Hegseth's emotions first. I mean, he's been described by his own former insiders who he seems to purge on a near monthly basis as parent. Is that part of it? Is part of this him?
- [06:40]
Oliver Darcy
He seems very paranoid about leaks. And I think that's what it comes down to. This is like paranoia has gripped him and he is now just trying to cut leaks out. But he apparently has. He worked at Fox News, so you'd think he'd have a little understanding of how the media operates. But he apparently thinks that reporters are just roaming the Pentagon, walking into meetings with generals and getting information. Any reporter will tell you that's not how things happen. That's not how you actually get reporting. In fact, I would argue it was beneficial for him to have reporters there because at least they would interface with the official government spokespeople. Now they're gonna be outside the Pentagon, still texting their sources, still communicating with sources, and he's lost the ability to actually influence the reporting via the official Pentagon spokespeople. So I think it's gonna backfire.
- [07:26]
Nicole Wallace
Let me ask you one more thing. Their statement seems to lump together coverage of classified information and unclass. Now there are laws governing the treatment of classified information and presidents of different parties have sort of made different choices about that. But coverage of unclassified information, that's simply germane to the Pentagon or the Department of Defense. There's no law that restricts that coverage. Are they looking at new laws?
- [07:52]
Oliver Darcy
I don't know what they're doing. I can tell you they are saying it's illegal. Just to show you, for readers to understand our audience, to understand how far reaching this is, they're saying now it's illegal if a reporter to walk into the Pentagon, take A picture anywhere on the reservation, they claim that is illegal. If you were to go to the Pentagon as a reporter, not take a picture, but later come up with a sketch of what you saw, that is not permitted under these rules. These rules are just so absurd on their face. No news organization can sign it. And that's why even Newsmax, that's why Fox News, they've all said no to this. Pete Hexseth is just way out of his league here.
- [08:29]
Nicole Wallace
And Appelbaum, we've talked at different points about how Trump is moving faster than Orban did. I don't know that Orban ever got to this point where it was in writing. Maybe it is now. But just weigh in on how clunky and public this effort is.
- [08:47]
Anne Applebaum
What worries me about this story, and it may soon apply to other institutions as well, is that I fear the purpose was to expel news organizations. So the point was that only one American news has access. Only they are able to speak to official sources. Everybody else has to turn to them for information when they do need information from official sources and a whole host of reporters and experts and other people who are responsible for reporting on what is an institution that belongs to all Americans. Our taxes pay for the Pentagon. The generals are our generals, and military actions are our actions done in our name. Looks to me like the point is to restrict the ability to talk about it and to have any official versions of it to people who are ideologically approved. And that's something that actually is. It took many years before, before when you, when you look at other. Other democracies that lapsed into something more autocratic. Usually it takes a long time before there's only one official news outlet that's allowed to produce the news, which is sort of. That's a kind of Soviet situation. And this is a very, very fast way to get rid of everybody, even Fox.
- [10:09]
Nicole Wallace
One of the things that is sort of echoing in my ears are the warnings of the generals ahead of the November election. Not just General Kelly, but General Mattis, General Milley. This feels like it represents a lot of risk for the men and women of the military as well, that if they don't have any ability for the things being asked of them to be known by the public, to be known by their neighbors, it weakens that relationship between the civilian population and the military population. Does that feel like part of the intended or unintended consequences here, Ann?
- [10:43]
Anne Applebaum
I mean, intended or unintended, it cuts the Pentagon, it cuts the military off from, as I said, the people who pay for it and in whose name it acts. And all of those generals, all the people you've just mentioned are all people who worked very closely with President Trump in his first term and were very clear about the direction that he was going, and they were particularly concerned about exactly this, that he could take the military in a direction that's unfamiliar to most of us. And now we have to take into consideration the possibility that they're taking it into a direction not only that's new and dangerous, but we don't even know what it is.
- [11:24]
Nicole Wallace
Angela, let me show you. Angela, before you say it, this was all in writing, in Project 2025. Let me just give you one more element to respond to. This is newly released video of an interview that Jack Smith, former special counsel, did with my colleague Andrew Weissman about Pete Hegseth's Signal chat and the things he shared on that Signal chat with a journalist.
- [11:50]
Angelo Carusone
Recently.
- [11:50]
Oliver Darcy
We had this issue of like, I guess it was people in the Defense Department using Signal to communicate with each other about war plans, clearly classified information. I can tell you, Andrew will tell you there is no administration, Republican or Democrat, that does not open an investigation in that situation. Nothing where the lives of servicemen are put at risk, zero never happens.
- [12:18]
Nicole Wallace
I just wanted to baseline this conversation in how far from normal for a Democrat or Republican and from Trump 1.0 we are in having this conversation. Your thoughts on these developments at the Pentagon?
- [12:32]
Angelo Carusone
A couple of things. One, I'm glad that you played that clip, because it's worth considering here that a lot of the internal guardrails, you know, inspector generals, the types of internal checks and sort of accountability systems, they've already gotten rid of most of those, not just at the Pentagon, but across the government. So if you get rid of those internal checks and safeguards, then the other alternative is the fourth estate is the press that's doing the types of reporting to help expose these things, corruption, these types of violations of confidentiality and war plans. That's the type of stuff that investigative reporters do. So when you get rid of the internal guardrails, then the backup is also gone, which is now the media. This is also that. So one, I think it's worth keeping that in mind, that they're connected, that it's, it's not just that they're reckless, but there's also a plan and intentionality here in controlling the information. So that's the first thing. And there is a connective tissue there. I think one, broadly, I just want to take a step back and put two things on the table Here, because when I look at this, I think about it in a few ways. One is that this particular incident is kind of sandwiched in between a couple events. Right. Right after he gave that speech to the generals. It's worth keeping in mind that Hegseth also required them to everyone in the Department of Defense reported to certify that they watched his speech to actually confirm that they did. And this seems to be a pattern and a trend of sort of forcing the types of affirmations from the individuals around him, not just his employees now, but we're seeing that play out in the press. And then. So that's the background on this. The second piece is that's worth keeping in mind that this controlling of information, as Ann pointed out, is taking place right at the same time that they're talking about the Insurrection act and deploying the troops domestically and using the military in ways that we've never really seen before. So, you know, when you pull it all together, it's not just a closing off of information, but it's a closing off of information at a time when they're already signaling that they're going to do fairly extraordinary and terrifying things with that, with the military. So where you'd want to have maximum insight and exposure, even when they're doing those extraordinary things, we can have a better understanding of what they're thinking about. The second thing is I just want to put a sort of inside baseball here, but it is worth keeping in mind that one American news is the odd one out and we can talk about the quality of the work and all that other stuff. But there's another thing that I keep thinking about, which is that they're also the only other news agency or news type agency that has an official contract with the government where they are providing content for the hollowed out Voice of America that after Carrie Lake hollowed it out, they now take one America news content and distribute that under the banner of Voice of America. They already have a relationship with the government. So if I was them, surely I'm not going to sort of, you know, do anything here because I'm already a functionally a mouthpiece of the government. And that to me is the. The last thing here is the terrifying thing is that as they close off the information across the government, one of the things we see with all these hype videos and videos is propaganda, is that they now have these official channels and then separate from that in the broader information ecosystem, they just flood the zone with hype, with vibes. And that's to me the unsettling part is not just the moment we're in now, but where we're going to be in three months and what that landscape is going to look like from a qualitative perspective.
- [15:43]
Nicole Wallace
You know, I love that Angela put that on the table because I think, Oliver, we have conversations about sort of the strain and the pressures bearing down either from ownership changes or moves or from Trump. But there's also what they're pushing out. And in terms of like everyone getting their news on the phone, propaganda seems like it has as good of a chance as any of being what is in front of people algorithmically. And if you have an affinity for these guys anyway, yeah, as they're trying.
- [16:14]
Oliver Darcy
To chill speech, as they're working to stop reporters from doing the news, they are actively propping up actual propagandists inside this country. And, you know, in the first term, I think it was very much a Fox News focused effort. Now you're seeing these social media algorithms, TikTok Instagram meta, they've supercharged a new roster of these people and they are going on podcasts like the Benny Johnson Show. They are really doing their best to back these people, to make them the official distributors of information while bashing the press. And I think we maybe focus a little bit much on the bashing, but without actually looking at what they're doing to hold up these very dishonest people. And the fact is that we know they're dishonest, but a lot of Americans don't, and they just pop up in their social media feed and they listen to them and they start believing a lot of this nonsense that this administration.
- [17:12]
Nicole Wallace
Is pushing and what are the bulwarks? I mean, it feels like the speed with which they're pulling down truth and facts and evidence based content is being sort of outgunned. There's an emerging asymmetry with the speed at which they're consolidating the force behind the pipeline of propaganda.
- [17:37]
Anne Applebaum
So it's really now incumbent on Americans to be very careful about where their information is coming from, to remember to look for publications that do some kind of fact checking or print some kinds of corrections to make sure that what they're reading is actually journalism and not propaganda, and to try to learn the difference. Because the game over the next or game is the wrong word for the task over the next nine months and maybe the next three years is going to be to have a way of trying to understand what's true and what's not true. Because people are about to be bombarded with false information of all kinds, especially in the run up to the midterms, and being aware of that and understanding it and explaining it to other people and trying to pass on good information. And by the way, that can be difficult for anybody. It's very easy to be fooled by a fake video or by an incorrect statement that you find on, on some form of social media. But to, to be aware of it all the time and to think of it as now something that it, you know, as a citizen, you are responsible for doing. You're responsible for making sure that everything you pass on or publish or print is true. I think that's now a part of what it means to be an American if you want America to stay a democracy.
- [18:57]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah. And if you're part of the original First Amendment crowd, which had a big overlap intersection with the conservative movement traditionally and the MAGA movement recently, that's what you used to demand from your content. We have so much more to get to with this three of you. I'm going to ask all of you to stick around. I want to share with our viewers an update from the White House. Moments ago, Donald Trump awarded the Medal of Freedom to murdered conservative activist Charlie Kirk. His widow, Erica Kirk, accepted that award. In his citation for the medal, the administration mentioned his enormous influence inside the MAGA movement. In accepting the award, Erica Kirk thanked the Trump administration and Kirk's staff. We will be right back.
- [19:47]
MSNBC Announcer
MSNBC presents the chart topping original podcast the Best People with Nicole Wallace. This week she sits down with actor Martin Sheen.
- [19:57]
Martin Sheen
It's a mighty battle going on. It's not about winning or losing. It's about being in touch with your own personal humanity because there's such a lack of it coming from this administration.
- [20:07]
MSNBC Announcer
The Best People with Nicole Wallace. Listen now for early access, ad free listening and bonus content. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access, ad free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC's original podcasts including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace. Why is this Happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddows original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.
- [20:49]
Nicole Wallace
We're back with Anne Angelo and Oliver Ann. I don't want to embarrass you, but I want to play some of what Hillary Clinton said today at an event honor you.
- [21:01]
Hillary Clinton
As we lift up our allies who are fighting for democracy and freedom. Let's also lift up those here who are trying to do the same against the militarization of our cities, against the stripping of rights, against corruption out in the open, against the kind of actions being taken that are right out of the authoritarian playbook. The women we honor today have stood firm against a lot of blowback, a lot of intimidation, and they have shown that the rise of authoritarianism is not a foregone conclusion. We can turn the tide. Let us recommit today to our shared fight, yes, for women's rights and for democracy, because they go hand in hand.
- [22:03]
Nicole Wallace
Ann, I'm going to ask you to say more about this event and this moment and about this emerging argument that these were never political things. To be against corruption, to be against the stripping of rights, to be against a suppression of the First Amendment and free speech. They now divide America's two political sides.
- [22:25]
Anne Applebaum
So the event was a really lovely occasion. It happens every year. Hillary Clinton and institute at Georgetown that works on women in security gives out awards to mostly to very heroic activists. And there were three on the stage today. I was in that sense the odd man out there was Maria Ressa, who's a great activist on disinformation and propaganda from the Philippines. There was a woman representing the women of Venezuela who were imprisoned women, political prisoners. And there was a woman representing the student movement in Bangladesh that changed the government there. But yes, the point was to remind people that all of these things that we're talking about, and this is the subject of my article that you quoted at the beginning as well, the rights of people, the right to vote, the right to free speech, these are things that unified Americans and that were part of what America stood for abroad at least some of the time, or at least it aspired to stand for those things. These were not ideas or principles that divided our country. It wasn't as if we always had one side on the side of free speech and another group of people battling against it. I mean, it happened at different times that there were arguments about it. But the, the principles have united us for 250 years. And the danger now is that the very basic elements of our constitution and the basic elements of our democracy are becoming political footballs. So an argument about how you cover the Pentagon suddenly divides people or an argument about women's rights or other kinds of rights suddenly divides people in a way that it shouldn't or didn't in the past. And of course there are. The rest of the world is watching this argument as well.
- [24:19]
Nicole Wallace
I Mean, Angela, this is something you and I have been hitting on as well over the years as these fights are not, you know, across oceans, but they're within countries. And Maria Resa's been on this program when we had the audacity to do a series called Autocracy in America. It could happen here. And I wonder what you think of this moment and this window where in one week you've got Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama and Tish James and Jack Smith, really, I think, bringing into focus an argument that may have been abstract for too many Americans. And that is that when democracy goes away, your rights go away. Your right to vote for who you want if you don't like how much eggs costs, go away. Your right to free and fair elections, your right to a rule of law that is blind to what political party you belong to, your right to at a law firm that won't suddenly capitulate to Trump and make you work at the Commerce Department as payback. I mean, all of these rights are affecting real people and in growing sort of blast radii as the days go on. That's a plot, I think.
- [25:27]
Angelo Carusone
Yeah, and I think, I think this speaking out is sort of a reflection and there is a significance to it beyond just the comfort that you get when people sort of validate this reality. But we're sort of sandwiched between two realities right now. And that's sort of the hard spot that we're in. We're where, you know, it feels like things are kind of normal in some ways. You know, the streetlights are still working. Things seem similar, but yet they're doing all this incredibly bad stuff. But it hasn't really materialized yet. It's not fully tangible. And the few times that it has been tangible, like with Jimmy Kimmel, right, there was an official government action and then there was a harm that was really clear right away. It just disappeared. It wasn't on TV anymore. People saw that and reacted quickly. But other, you know, this Pentagon thing, this stuff feels like inside baseball to a degree or really far removed from people's day to day lives. So it feels like a reality. That's all, that's too far off. And when you have the type of leadership that we're seeing play out, I think it's two ways. One, like you said, it's to put things into focus. That actually that reality is closer than you think. It's kind of now and sort of the moment to prevent that. Reality is this sandwich space that we're in. And then the second is it gives A little bit of a permission structure to speak up that they're doing it. You should talk about it, too. That actually is a big deal. The Pentagon thing is, maybe most people may not care about that, but it's part of the same playbook that they laid out, which was to put Voice of America under government control. They were going to kick out correspondence from official government places, the White House being the first one. But other department agencies were the same. They kind of did that a little bit with the White House, but they also flooded the zone with their people. But the other stuff is investigating reporters, making it easier to get into their private emails and their internal communications. That's all laid out. They're going to start doing that. The types of crackdowns on free speech, these are the types of things that are right on the horizon, or maybe they're already beginning to do, and we shouldn't sort of treat them as separate things, but part of the same larger crackdown on free speech. And that's how I see these moments that Bill Clinton, of President Obama and Hillary Clinton is. It is a permission structure. We need more people to do that. Not to freak out and make people feel powerless, but to actually acknowledge that there's a moment that you have power. And it's right now, before we get to the other side, before we get to the reality that they're trying to make fully realized.
- [27:39]
Nicole Wallace
How do you grade the lens and the job that people are doing? Putting the appropriate lens. I mean, I think Ann and Angela put the right lens around this. Right. Like the authoritarian conduct is here already, and it's a stupid debate. Are we an autocracy? Are we a democracy? We're having this conversation. So obviously there are some things that are unchanged, but the stories you cover, and it feels like at a quickening pace of capitulation inside our own industry are undeniable.
- [28:05]
Anne Applebaum
So.
- [28:05]
Nicole Wallace
So how do you sort of grade the media writ large in this moment.
- [28:11]
Oliver Darcy
To put it generously? I think there's a lot of room for improvement, Nicole.
- [28:14]
Nicole Wallace
I think if you don't be generous.
- [28:16]
Oliver Darcy
Be brutal, I don't think they're doing a great job. I mean, this is a broad. That's a broad grade, if you will, but I think there's a lot of room where they can improve. And I think while we have this time, by and large, if you were to watch the evening newscast or to read the major newspapers, there are moments where you can see like. Like they have reported something very specific. But to Angela's point, it's not a Broad takeaway. And I think that most people when they were watching, if you were to watch AB news for like a few weeks, you wouldn't walk away thinking we have an autocrat wannabe in the White House. And I think that's the real issue. And they're not the ways that things are covered could be sharper for sure. And there is the, you know, if you watch the Sunday shows, for instance, it just feels like we're. Everyone wants to pretend like it's normal and it's obviously not. And breaking out of that structure is very difficult for a lot of media executives and on air talent.
- [29:09]
Nicole Wallace
I was going to ask you about the Sunday shows because I thought what George did was such a light. Right. It is not normal to come on the show and lie. So I'm just going to end it. And I wonder if, I guess we covered it because that's news, because that doesn't happen all the time. But it seems like that might be a way forward.
- [29:26]
Oliver Darcy
I mean, I think George is one of the bright spots for sure on Sunday television. I think there are certainly bright spots in the media ecosystem. But if you were to look broadly at how everything's being covered, I think that it's frankly, it tends to be quite soft and it doesn't use the right words to describe what Donald Trump wants to do. He wants to rule as an autocrat. Why that's so difficult for news organizations to say, I don't know when they're covering the information ecosystem, why it's so hard for them to say that Fox News is right wing, that they do propaganda, I have no idea. But we don't see news organizations conveying that to audiences that rely on them for that information, that often pay them for that information. And if you were to talk to people in the media, at bars, after the cameras are off or when they're not on duty, they would be very blunt with you, I think, and say that it's scary what this administration is doing. They're concerned, they are alert. But that does not often make its way through the television screen to the viewers where these people are relying on them for that information.
- [30:29]
Nicole Wallace
So interesting. And we're going to continue to try to get your bluntest assessments, not to be dire, but while we still can. Right? Like while we can still tell the truth about all of it. Ann Appelbaum, thank you so much for being part of this conversation. Angelo Carazone, thank you for focusing our minds. Oliver Darcy, thank you for letting me put you on the spot. Thank you for starting us off today. When we come back, Americans on all sides of the political spectrum are outraged, but they're seeing on the streets of our cities. That is true. And it might explain why the Trump administration is increasingly pushing out what we're talking about, propaganda videos to skew the reality of what is actually happening. Our friend and colleague Jacob Sobrov is here to fact check what he saw with his own eyes. He'll join us next. The connection between the guests on the show is the show. All that we do is put together people who are smart, people who are brave, people who are honest, and lots of times people who've never met each other to have a conversation that has never happened before. But on that day deepens everyone's understanding about the moment in which we gather.
- [31:40]
MSNBC Announcer
Deadline White House with Nicole Wallace, weekdays from 4 to 6pm Eastern on MSNBC.
- [31:51]
Nicole Wallace
Over the weekend, legendary Milwaukee Bucks coach Doc Rivers forcefully condemned the ICE violence that has taken over his hometown, the city of Chicago. Take a listen.
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Doc Rivers
I mean, it's just awful what you watch and see and you know, people getting zip tied. I mean, that's, that's not this country. That's not what we're about. It's just wrong. You know, I think every American is good with there's criminals on the street. We want to arrest the criminals. My dad was a cop, for Christ's sakes. My dad would not be proud of this. I know that my dad would have have a major problem. I couldn't imagine my dad going to work right now and have to protect ICE agents and doing what they're doing. I couldn't imagine him wanting to go to work. I think he'd call in sick.
- [32:45]
Nicole Wallace
The footage of children being zip tied, of innocent people being tear gassed, of priests being shot with non lethal pepper balls by their own government has disgusted and shocked a large swath of our country, bringing together everyone from Bernie Sanders to Marjorie Taylor Greene, Zach Bryan to Bad Bunny Jimmy Kimmel to Joe Rogan, and condemning the massive overreach by Donald Trump in the face of that, that unified opposition to what Donald Trump is doing. What does the Trump administration do? Do they change course like they did with child separation in 1.0? Not this time. This is important. This time they are working overtime to do what we were talking about in the last block, to create propaganda to skew the reality of what people understand is happening in their names on the part of the US Government, on the ground in cities like Chicago and Portland, to selectively edit and make their actions look somehow justified. What you're Watching is a video produced with your taxpayer dollars. We'll spare you the sadistic background music that accompanies the images is meant to make places like Chicago look like a war zone. We've also blurred the faces of the people featured in their videos who, as far as we know, have not been convicted of any crimes. We show this to you because this is what the Trump administration is projecting to the American people and to the world to justify their increasingly unpopular actions amid what can only be described as propaganda, state sponsored propaganda. Notably absent are the stories like the one we showed you yesterday, the heartbreaking video of Maricela Rosales Castillo being detained and swept off the sidewalk into a van on her way from picking up groceries to make dinner for her family. Joining our coverage, MSNBC senior political and senior national and political correspondent Jacob Sobroff is back at the table. Also joining us, director of Communications and public Policy for the ACLU of Illinois. Ed Yanka is back with us. Jacob, take us through this.
- [34:48]
Jacob Soboroff
It's propaganda is the word you used in the last segment. That's exactly what this is when you watch that video, the dhs. It was almost on cue after we had the conversation yesterday about the videos that citizens on the streets are taking that are driving people and will drive people to protest like the one that's happening for no Kings Day this weekend. They put out these videos literally from Earth 2, as you say, a completely bizarro take on the reality of the situation that they are carrying out all across the country and particularly in Chicago right now. It's like they're making an episode of Cops. They said, we have 1500 criminals in the caption that we have detained since the beginning of the operation in Chicago. That is preposterous. There is no way that all 1,500 of those people have criminal records other than being undocumented immigrants in this country. Particularly if we could run it back, the video outside the bakery and I can just describe to you what we're seeing because I was there. I was there 20 minutes after this video was taken. That guy in the hoodie is Daniel Cabrera. He's 30 years old. He's a mechanic. He has no criminal record whatsoever. He has little children and he is on his way to being deported back to Mexico. That is Mario Martinez, who they didn't have a warrant for. The other guy in the red shirt, he ended up having criminal record from over 10 years ago. His family says he's had a clean record ever since. But it's not like they went out there looking for him. They are indiscriminately rounding people up and then with their documentary crew, which is, I think, a generous way to describe it, making these slick looking videos in order to try to convince people all around the country that this is some massive effort to rip the worst of the worst off the streets. And instead really what they're doing is getting the Maricellas. That same videographer was there with Maricela. You don't see her 53 year old Maricela with her backpack and her hoodie in this video because they don't want to show you that story. They don't want to tell you that she was on her way to pick up meat to make a stew for her daughter Samantha and, and they took her with 12 different agents on the street and a bunch of vehicles. They are crafting and creating a story that is divorced from the reality of the situation on the ground.
- [36:55]
Nicole Wallace
Are people buying it?
- [36:57]
Jacob Soboroff
I don't think so. I think that that's why 7,000 people showed up marching up and down Michigan Avenue last week when I was there. I think that's why this no Kings Day protest this weekend will be largely focused around not only the immigration issues on the streets, the fact that they're taking innocent people off the streets, but that people feel like their democracy is being challenged on the streets. People don't look at that and say that's what it looks like on the streets of Chicago. They say that's what it looks like. When I watch Cops, When I watched Cops sitting at home on a Friday night eating popcorn with my kids. This is not what's really happening on the streets of America.
- [37:34]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, it's why they lost Joe Rogan. I mean, his words were, these are not the sights and the sounds. If they don't break your heart, you don't have a heart.
- [37:42]
Jacob Soboroff
And Donald Trump knows we've talked about this a million times. The reason family separation ended was because he said, I did not like the sight and the feeling of the families being separated. Responding to Ginger Thompson's incredibly important audio she obtained of those kids in the Border Patrol facility wailing at pro public wailing. And the Border Patrol agents said, oh, we have an orchestra here. He wants to create his own images so that he can create his own feelings to convince the American public that the way things are or the way he wants them to believe they are, despite the reality on the ground, no one's going anywhere.
- [38:17]
Nicole Wallace
Someone who helped us ascertain the facts and the truth about that Black Hawk helicopter and Zip tied children raid in Chicago will join our conversation on the other side of a short break. Stay with us.
- [38:35]
Doc Rivers
I mean, protest is legal and you should be able to protest, you know, and I think it's becoming made violent, you know, in some ways. So I don't know. Antifa never. Does anyone know what that is? I mean, I actually looked today. I really did. I actually looked up and there was 15 different answers before. Yet we have all these other groups, the proud boys. No one's going after it. I mean, it's just. This is getting sickening for. And this should be again, I'm going to say this last time and then move back to basketball. This should be about the morality of our country and not about the race. This has nothing to do with black and white. Black and whites should be grabbing arms together on this one and fighting against this.
- [39:27]
Nicole Wallace
Wow. We're back with Jacob and Ed. I mean, Ed, this is about fundamental rights that never before this moment, really, this blatantly divided people among politicians of two parties about the right to protest, about the right to free speech, about the right to due process. Even the Supreme Court in this moment affirmed everyone's right to due process, even people in this country, allegedly illegally or actually illegally. What do you make of what has transpired since we first spoke the day after or maybe two days after the raid on the apartment complex with the zip tied children and the Blackhawk helicopter?
- [40:09]
Ed Yanka
Well, first of all, I want to say it's really great being here with Jacob, who's been on the ground in Chicago, and of course with Doc Rivers, who is a hero even though he never played for the Chicago Bulls. You know, the reality is I want to. I want to pick up where you left off with Jacob, if I could, which is who's buying this? I'll tell you who's not buying it. The people of Chicago. On Sunday morning, I went and stood on a street corner with a couple thousand of my neighbors to watch the Chicago Marathon, to watch people from all over the world who came to our city for a race and for a run and to make themselves proud and to see the beauty of all the different neighborhoods of our city.
- [40:53]
Angelo Carusone
And.
- [40:54]
Ed Yanka
And it was just warming to see the heartfelt welcome for people from all races, from all countries there to be part of our city. The other folks who are not buying what this administration is selling in these videos are the federal courts. Last week you had three courts who said in an immigration case we were involved in that the administration was not being straightforward with what they were saying about the Way they were enforcing immigration law in Illinois, in Chicago and around the Midwest. You had a judge in a case that we had around First Amendment rights and protesters being fired on saying that the administration's case, for the reasons that they had to use, the excessive force that they were using, just didn't match the facts on the ground. And then, of course, in the case involving. And the matter involving the deployment of the federalized National Guards or other federal forces, the court said that the administration simply couldn't make a case, pick a case for why it was that they wanted to put those folks, you know, they wanted to put those troops on the ground. And so, you know, what we're seeing is this effort to repeatedly and continually make up a story to justify an action that just doesn't make sense and doesn't add up to the people who live, work, and enjoy Chicago each and every day.
- [42:21]
Nicole Wallace
Ed, what is happening on the streets of Chicago right now? Is ICE activity increasing, decreasing about the same.
- [42:29]
Ed Yanka
It's been particularly heavy over the past few days. You know, I think one of the things that people on the ground have talked about is that the attack or the, you know, the losses that the administration is suffering in courts may be causing them to ramp up actions on the streets. There was a video over the weekend, you know, of a teenage girl in the suburbs thrown to the ground by ICE agents and hauled away. You know, we're. There was an incident on the southeast side of the city today that drew a large group of protesters. And tear gas was used again. There was tear gas used in another neighborhood of the city yesterday. So we're seeing a continuing ramping up of both the activities and of the violence that accompanies it, as if somehow the administration is going to prove its point by simply going out and being more violent each and every day.
- [43:25]
Nicole Wallace
Are they ever accountable for the injuries they cause?
- [43:28]
Jacob Soboroff
I mean, you would think that they should be, but it's so ironic because they're saying they're making Chicago safe again. That's the slogan that they are saying. Does it look like they're making it safe by chasing random people into the middle of the street? When they did that in LA from a Home Depot, a man died on the 210 freeway after being chased by immigration agents into the middle of the highway. It's only a matter of time before someone dies in one of these indiscriminate, random stops in the middle of the street. Because of why? Because of what they look like.
- [43:52]
Nicole Wallace
And Tom Homan said to you, quote, someone's. Someone's going to die, end quote. Jacob? Ed, thank you so much for being part of our coverage. One more break. We'll be right back. If you've ever asked yourself this question, how can the Trump administration do the things they're doing to our fellow citizens, to other humans? Where is the humanity? You're not the only one asking that question.
- [44:17]
Martin Sheen
It's not about winning or losing. It's about being in touch with your own personal humanity because there's such a lack of it coming from this administration. And I'm convinced of this, that.
- [44:37]
Anne Applebaum
When.
- [44:37]
Martin Sheen
You look at this group of people at the roundtable in the White House, the Cabinet Room, every one of those people look across the table and they do not see anyone who is better than they are. They generally see a reflection of their worth selves. So there's no heroes in there. There's no music, there's no laughter. There's no self effacement. There's no joy in that room. It smells of ego and fear and false worship.
- [45:15]
Nicole Wallace
That was the incomparable Martin Sheen electrifying the crowd at the MSNBC Live event over the weekend. Martin is my guest on this week's episode of the Best People. Scan the QR code to see the whole conversation right now. One more break. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes. We are grateful.