← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
"Donald Trump's vengeance and retribution campaign has a new target"
00:42:44
Nicolle Wallace on six lawmakers who appeared in a video urging U.S. service members not to comply with illegal orders who are now reportedly under investigation by the FBI.
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- [00:00]
Michael Feinberg
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- [00:30]
Tom Nichols
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Michael Feinberg
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Tom Nichols
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Host (possibly a news anchor or journalist)
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Tom Nichols
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Michael Feinberg
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Melissa Murray
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- [01:08]
Host (possibly a news anchor or journalist)
Hi everyone, it's four o'.
- [01:09]
Melissa Murray
Clock.
- [01:09]
Host (possibly a news anchor or journalist)
In New York, Donald Trump's Vengeance and Retribution campaign has a new target. Six of them, actually. The lawmakers who served our country honorably and bravely and dared to tell members of the United States military something that would in normal times be totally normal and totally obvious, that it is their duty to refuse to carry out any illegal orders. This afternoon, one of those lawmakers, Senator Alyssa Slotkin of Michigan, who before becoming a member of that body served as a CIA analyst. And as a CIA analyst, she went to Iraq. She also served in the Pentagon during both the Bush and Obama presidencies. She today announced that she believes she is under investigation by the FBI's counterterrorism division because she appeared in that video that has clearly sent Donald Trump into some sort of rage. Donald Trump saying that what she did was, quote, punishable by death. In fact, a source familiar tells us that the FBI is now working to schedule interviews with Slotkin and the five other Democrats who appear in that video urging US Service members simply to not comply with any illegal order. The source telling msnow that the FBI has contacted Capitol Police to try to schedule these interviews. Ahead of that news, FBI Director Kash Patel was asked about the video. Here's what he said.
- [02:30]
Melissa Murray
Democratic lawmakers released a video calling on.
- [02:33]
Host (possibly a news anchor or journalist)
Military personnel to defy illegal orders.
- [02:36]
Melissa Murray
President Trump weighed in and called it a seditious behavior. When you saw this, what went through your head?
- [02:44]
Michael Feinberg
What goes through my head is the.
- [02:46]
Host (possibly a news anchor or journalist)
Same thing that goes through my head. In any case, is there a lawful.
- [02:50]
Michael Feinberg
Predicate to open up an inquiry and.
- [02:52]
Host (possibly a news anchor or journalist)
Investigation, or is there not? And that decision will be made by.
- [02:55]
Michael Feinberg
The career agents and analysts here at the FBI.
- [02:58]
Host (possibly a news anchor or journalist)
Is the FBI getting involved?
- [03:00]
Michael Feinberg
Based on the fact that it's an ongoing matter, there's not much I can say.
- [03:06]
Host (possibly a news anchor or journalist)
Pete Hegsas, Pentagon Also getting in on the action by launching an investigation into Arizona Senator Mark Kelly for his participation in the video. Hegseth threatened the decorated veteran and war hero last night with being called back into active duty status so that he could possibly be court martialed. We should note that that threat comes as Trump's secretary of defense appears to be largely sidelined from important aspects of the job of leading the United States military. Reports have emerged that Hegseth has been largely cut out of the Trump administration's negotiations with Ukraine and Russia to end the war. That means that the Secretary of defense may have more time on his hands to fire off social media posts like this one mocking Senator Kelly for his uniform, saying, quote, your medals are out of order and rows reversed. When and if you are recalled to active duty, it will start with a uniform inspection, end quote. Putting inside excess, character or lack thereof, or childish insults toward an American combat veteran and hero. What this is clearly about is getting Donald Trump's attention 1 and intimidation 2. So here's how Senator Kelly responded to the threats last night on the air with our colleague Rachel Maddow. This must be a source of stress.
- [04:32]
Melissa Murray
For you and your family. I just have to ask the kind.
- [04:34]
Host (possibly a news anchor or journalist)
Of impact that it's having on you and your loved ones.
- [04:38]
Michael Feinberg
Rachel. I've had a missile blow up next to my airplane. I've been shot down, nearly shot down multiple times.
- [04:43]
Tom Nichols
I've flown a rocket ship into space.
- [04:46]
Michael Feinberg
Four times, built by the lowest bidder.
- [04:48]
Tom Nichols
And my wife, Gabby Giffords, meeting with her constituents, shot in the head, six people killed around her. A horrific thing. She spent six months in the hospital. But I'm not going to be silenced here. Is it stressful? I've been stressed by things more important than Donald Trump trying to intimidate me.
- [05:08]
Michael Feinberg
Into shutting my mouth and not doing my job.
- [05:11]
Tom Nichols
He didn't like what I said. I'm going to show up for work every day, support the Constitution, do my job, hold this administration accountable, hold this president accountable when he is out of line. That's the responsibility of every U.S. senator and every member of Congress. He, he's not going to silence us.
- [05:34]
Host (possibly a news anchor or journalist)
That is where we start today with some of our favorite experts and friends. Former assistant special agent in charge at the FBI, national security and intelligence analyst and lawfare fellow Michael Feinberg is back. Also joining us, staff writer at the Atlantic as a contributor to the Atlantic daily newsletter. Tom Nichols is here. He's a professor emeritus of National Security affairs at the U.S. naval War College, where he taught for more than two decades. And with me at the table for the hour, NYU law professor legal analyst Melissa Murray. Michael Feinberg, what is Kash Patel saying in that answer there when he says both that he won't get involved, only career FBI agents will be involved in what is clearly already underway, which as Senator Slotkin posted on social media, is what she believes to be an investigation from the Counterterrorism division. And Kash Patel seeming to say he has nothing to do with it. What do you hear?
- [06:34]
Michael Feinberg
Well, I would suggest that we approach Kash Patel's relationship with truth telling as a somewhat flexible and adaptable relationship. And we know for a fact that a lot of the more controversial decisions in terms of what the FBI should be investigating now have not been made by career agents. They've been made by this odd group of retired agents who share Patel's political beliefs, a couple hand picked ones from the ranks of the onboard bureau employees who share those beliefs, and then just some individuals that Patel and the administration have brought in. And we know, for example, that the investigation into former Director Comey was run in this fashion where it was not a field office, it was not career agents. It one career agent and one retired special agent in charge who were really running the show directly out of headquarters. So I have zero confidence that if these legislators are being investigated, it's because the Washington field office or the field offices of their home states all spontaneously simultaneously decided that this was something that needed to be looked into.
- [07:57]
Host (possibly a news anchor or journalist)
What does it mean if we take Senator Slotkin at her word or her understanding that she's under investigation by the FBI's counterterrorism unit?
- [08:07]
Michael Feinberg
It means a couple things in terms of practical effects. If there's been an investigation open against her or on her, there are a number of intrusive investigative techniques that the FBI can leverage against her, such as trying to get court orders to obtain her phone records, conducting surveillance, leveraging confidential sources or undercover employees against her. There's a whole wide swath of techniques that an open investigation allows you to use. But On a larger level, this is actually, I think, one of the most problematic things we've talked about on this show since the inauguration, simply because it is very clear FBI policy that you cannot open an investigation based entirely on protected First Amendment activity. And what those senators, what those veterans, what those public servants were saying in their video is emphatically 100% protected under the Constitution. So if the FBI is opening investigations solely on the basis of constitutionally protected activity, at this point, we've really crossed a Rubicon whose significance people may not get right away, but is going to be a seismic event in the long term.
- [09:39]
Host (possibly a news anchor or journalist)
Let me make sure I understand what you're saying. So there is no precedent. It is not a normal practice for the FBI to open a counterterror investigation solely based on speech. And the irony maybe in my mind, is that the speech is speech that is telling members of the military not to violate the Constitution.
- [10:05]
Michael Feinberg
Yeah. Now look, there's a fairly complicated way to look at this, and there's a lot of free speech tests that the Supreme Court has laid out and have evolved over the centuries. But absent a threat of violence, it is emphatically disallowed by the FBI to open an investigation solely on protected speech. Like it's not a gray area.
- [10:31]
Host (possibly a news anchor or journalist)
Melissa Murray that's a mind blowing aspect to a story that I will confess. I'm trying to gird myself and have enough discipline not to describe myself as shocked by the events, but I am shocked by this.
- [10:48]
Melissa Murray
Well, it shouldn't be shocking. I think if you think about just the sort of way that our Constitution lays out the kind of division of power around the military. It is true that the President under Article 2 is the Commander in chief of the armed forces. But that doesn't mean that Congress has nothing to say Congress has the authority to declare war in Article 1. It also in Article 1 has the authority to raise, maintain, supply the armed forces. And one can make an argument that in making those statements to enlisted personnel that they do not have an obligation to follow law orders that are unlawful, that that is part of what they're doing in maintaining the armed forces. So I know that there are some legal scholars who argue that maybe this is not covered by the speech and debate clause of the Constitution. But I think there is a good argument to be made not just with the First Amendment, but with the basic oversight powers that Congress has in this area where they do have significant authority.
- [11:46]
Host (possibly a news anchor or journalist)
Tom Nichols, let me come to you on the substance of who these people are and what is being really menaced in Their direction. Publicly, Pete Heg says menacing posts about medals and a uniform inspection, the menace of the specter of a counter terrorism investigation. The clear implication being that she is a, a counter, a threat that needs to be investigated by counterterror agents in the counterterrorism unit at the FBI. Trump's war on the military didn't start with Mattis and Kelly and Milley and Esper and McRaven and McChrystal and Gates, but it included all those men publicly criticizing him by the end of one term. What do you make of where we are today?
- [12:46]
Tom Nichols
Well, there's a couple of things going on. One is that Kash Patel and Pete Hegseth are bad at their jobs and they want to hang on to their jobs. And they're going to engage in this kind of peacocking to show the audience of one, the only audience that matters, that they will do whatever he wants and that they will go after his enemies. The Constitution be damned if that's what it takes to stay in their offices and in their chairs. The other is, and I think Michael got at this really well, we're up to a line now about the Constitution. We're over a line about the Constitution and the First Amendment. We have six members of Congress who are also American citizens. Any American citizen can say this to stand and say, the armed forces of the United States, the officer and enlisted personnel of the armed forces of the United States should never obey illegal orders and must always follow the Constitution. Donald Trump and Pete Hegseth think somehow that is a horrific thing to say when in fact, in a normal time in this country, you wouldn't even think to say it because it's so obvious. It's like saying, don't drive off a cliff. Don't, you know, don't, don't walk into a wall. And instead, they're treating this very common sense and eternally important principle of the US Military and civilian control of the US Military as if it is a dire offense against Donald Trump and the good order of the United States Armed Forces. And that tells you where they are. Because once again, and you know, we've been saying this for a long time, a lot of us have been saying this for a long time. Donald Trump believes that the US Military should be his personal muscle. It should be his personal militia that answers only to him, not to Congress, not to the Constitution, not to the American people. Nobody. Donald Trump thinks that Article 2 means he owns the military like he owns buildings or owns anything else. And this is an attempt by him and others to say to members of Congress and to all American citizens that you have no right to express your views about the military or the Constitution or your own freedoms.
- [15:09]
Host (possibly a news anchor or journalist)
I mean, Tom Nichols, I think the record, the public record, proves that it's actually worse than that. Not just that he owns the military, but that they're dupes, that they're. I'm sorry, let me quote him. Suckers and losers. They're suckers and losers whose sacrifice he doesn't respect, appreciate, or even comprehend. And at Arlington National Cemetery, General Kelly stood there trying to explain to him why they die for their country, why men and women give their life for their country. And Trump couldn't make sense of it in his own mind. So it's all those things about owning the military, but the actual men and women inside the military are, to Donald Trump, quote, suckers and losers. Why are they so threatened? Why are they so threatened, though, by anyone with a platform telling those men that Trump thinks are, quote, suckers and losers that they can't follow illegal orders?
- [16:00]
Tom Nichols
Donald Trump is intimidated by anyone who exhibits any kind of virtue, any kind of commitment to selfless service, any kind of loyalty to something bigger than themselves. He's incapable as a narcissist. He's incapable of understanding people who commit to anything that is larger to themselves or to some principle or to the public good. It just doesn't compute for him. His mind doesn't work that way. This is the guy, as you pointed out, he stood in Arlington Cemetery and said, I don't get it. What was in it for them? He doesn't. He literally can't parse the thought that people do things for on as a matter of principle, as service to others, as self sacrifice. And I think places like Arlington Cemetery and people like Mark Kelly or John Kelly or Jim Mattis or others, they make him uncomfortable because they're a constant reminder of everything he is not.
- [16:58]
Host (possibly a news anchor or journalist)
So, Michael Feinberg, what happens if, as Senator Slotkin posted publicly, the FBI counterterror unit is investigating her? I think the FBI itself confirmed that they'd like to speak to all six of the lawmakers who made this video. What will happen now?
- [17:13]
Michael Feinberg
That's largely up to the lawmakers. I think we need to remember nobody is under an obligation to speak to the FBI voluntarily. And if this FBI and this Department of Justice is so certain that these senators have committed a crime by exercising their protected First Amendment speech, then I'd like to see the Department of Justice get a subpoena and put them in front of a. And, you know, open a real investigation, use a grand jury and force them to talk. If I was advising the senators, I would tell them to ignore this bluster, because that's all it is.
- [17:55]
Host (possibly a news anchor or journalist)
What do you think?
- [17:56]
Melissa Murray
I mean, I think this is right. You don't have to speak to the FBI. And I think you have to step back and understand that there really isn't an avenue, a substantive legal avenue to do something like they are making true statements. You are not under an obligation to follow an unlawful order. In fact, you have a constitutional duty to do otherwise. The process, though, is the punishment here. It's making you worried, making you have to lawyer up, making you have to go through all of the rigmarole of defending yourself against this. And it's intended to show enlisted personnel, this is what happens to even people who are way above you. Senators, representatives, think about what happens when you decide to step out of line. That's the whole point of all of this. It's intimidation all the way down.
- [18:39]
Host (possibly a news anchor or journalist)
It's unbelievable. No one's going anywhere. Still ahead for us, how Donald Trump's purging of the Justice Department could be the only way the bad actors of the administration will ever be held accountable. Some extraordinary new warnings today on what some see as potentially irreversible damage being done to the rule of law in our country, coming from people on the inside who watched it happen. And later in the broadcast, despite what Trump wants you to believe, more and more Americans say the cost of just about everything is up and going higher. Just about the exact opposite of what he and his treasury secretary, Scott Besant, keep saying out loud. We'll to get all of that and much more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
- [19:23]
Michael Feinberg
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- [19:53]
Tom Nichols
Twas the night before Christmas when all.
- [19:55]
Melissa Murray
Through the barn, Harry and David's Royal Riviera pears were wrapped. Heading out from the farm, the children.
- [20:01]
Host (possibly a news anchor or journalist)
Were nestled snug in their beds while towels of moose munch popcorn danced in their head.
- [20:06]
Tom Nichols
When what on our doorstep should magically appear.
- [20:09]
Melissa Murray
Harry and David delivering holiday cheer.
- [20:11]
Michael Feinberg
Harry and David exclaimed as they drove out of sight.
- [20:15]
Host (possibly a news anchor or journalist)
Happy holidays to all and to all.
- [20:17]
Tom Nichols
Of a good bite.
- [20:18]
Melissa Murray
Find magical gifts for everyone on your.
- [20:20]
Michael Feinberg
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Tom Nichols
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- [20:45]
Tom Nichols
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- [20:52]
Michael Feinberg
Off.
- [20:55]
Melissa Murray
I'm what's called a 911 baby. I happen to be in New York city on my second day of graduate school when 911 happened. It changed my life. I decided to go into national security, got recruited by the CIA right out of grad school, and then was quickly sent on my first of three tours in Iraq alongside the military, providing intelligence to the US Military to deal with the groups that were shooting at U.S. forces and plotting against the U.S. homeland. I worked in national security roles very proudly in both administrations, Democratic and Republican. I worked in the White House for George W. Bush, and I was there the Friday that he left office and the Monday that Barack Obama walked in. I did the same job for two very different presidents, one from each party. I went on to be a Pentagon assistant secretary of defense. But in between all that time, one of the things I got to do was help stand up the office of the Director of National Intelligence. I was the intelligence briefer in Baghdad for Ambassador John Negroponte, who was the first ambassador to Iraq under the Bush administration. I would provide him intelligence briefings early, early in the morning.
- [22:08]
Host (possibly a news anchor or journalist)
We're back with Michael, Tom and Melissa. Melissa, Senator Slotkin was CIA analyst Slotkin, and as a CIA analyst, she did all the things she said. But importantly, she was in Iraq and she was providing the kind of intelligence that the difference between whether our troops and our allies were safe or not. I just want to pause on the smears that they've endured. I mean, to say nothing of the death threats they've told us about. Whenever you're threatened with death or harm, there's always more that you don't telegraph. So what she's told us is that Capitol Police came to her immediately and moved her and that she has said she's now under 24. Seven security. That's what we know. That's what she said publicly. But we also know that this is a smear that Fox News is complicit in. They call them the, quote, seditious six, end quote. And all those smears and all those lies belie the opposite. This is someone who chose to serve her country after watching it attacked on 9 11.
- [23:14]
Melissa Murray
I mean, again, the process is the punishment. Like, there is, I think, virtually no hope that these charges would stand up, whether in a military court or in a court of law. Doesn't make any sense. But the point of this is to send a message to these lawmakers to shut up, to send a message to those who are enlisted in the military to also shut up and to send a message to supporters that we can make everyone shut up if we just get together, make these smears, and keep the pressure on them. This is no way to run a democracy. The whole point of a government by the people is that you have individuals who are equipped to be skeptical of your government. Like the idea of a government that where everyone just sort of acquiesces and says, yes, that's not the point of a democracy. That's a monarchy. That's something else, an autocracy, but it's not a democracy. The whole idea of being able to dissent against your government, to do so within a reasonable parameter, as they have done, that's the whole point of this. And the fact that she is someone who has worked in the intelligence community, worked with the military, standing up to a president who has never been in government service other than his service as president, where he's done all of this is honestly kind of staggering. I mean, it really beggars belief that we're sitting here questioning her patriotism, whether she and the actions that she's taken is consistent with democracy, when this is someone who has never served his country other than when he decided to walk down a golden escalator and decide to be president.
- [24:45]
Host (possibly a news anchor or journalist)
Yeah, Tom, I mean, I think we always have the adaptive ability as humans to say, this will be stopped by someone. Answer is usually the judges, right? If this proceeds, if they come up with a BS charge against them, the counterterror unit has some pretty smart people in it that we can. As Comey said, he wanted a trial so that it would have a backstop. It is still a disgrace to our country and to the body in which she serves. That there's even a scenario where it goes that far. It is a disgrace to our country that people are going on Fox News as they smear her as seditious. I mean, that is the problem. And our constant sort of human adaptations to say, well, someone will Stop. This is part of the problem in this moment. The smears against these lawmakers are the point in Trump and Hegseth's eyes.
- [25:41]
Tom Nichols
Yeah. And it's meant to generate death threats. It's meant to generate angry phone calls. It's meant to generate public pressure. Even if Trump and Hegseth and Patel know that, they have no chance of stomping on the First Amendment rights of these legislators in a way that's almost beside the point for them. What they want to do is, again, demonstrate their loyalty to the boss, but also to, you know, release the flying monkeys, to swarm these people with anger and death threats and just make their lives miserable so that they, and perhaps even more importantly, others watching, draw the. The lesson that it's better to just get along and go along and be quiet and keep your head down. And that is not who we are as Americans. That's not the American system. These are people just like you and me and everybody else. There's nothing special about them because they're legislators. We all have the right to exercise our First Amendment right to express ourselves and to comment on these things. And we certainly have the right to say we want the US Military to follow the Constitution and refused to obey illegal orders. You know, one of my colleagues today, John Chait, made a great point. He said normally a president would say, what are you people even talking about? I have no intention of issuing any orders like this. And you're overreacting. And instead, the president and the Secretary of Defense are acting like they got caught or that they're actually guilty of something because they're freaking out over something that really they should agree with in terms of how the military should act. So I think that the anger and the misery that they're trying to direct these people is the point. I don't really think they care how the process shakes out, because in the end, I think they know the process isn't going to work. And I think we should add one more thing, that the men and women of the FBI, the men and women of the Defense Department, they are not the problem here. They have to carry out instructions from their leadership that they probably think are terrible ideas. But again, the leadership, people like Patel, they don't really care how the process shakes out. They're doing this specifically to put people like Senator Slotkin and anybody else, including you or me, in the crosshairs of people that are just fanatical and will aim their rage at anybody Donald Trump points to.
- [28:15]
Host (possibly a news anchor or journalist)
You know, Michael, we spent a lot of the first Trump term covering the Mueller investigation, which had as one of its objectives to understand Donald Trump's state of mind. And so we understood at some point that his tweets became part of what they were analyzing and trying to sync them up to other things that were in the scope of that investigation. This time, it appears that their state of mind about the word illegal is screaming from the rooftops. I mean, as a former staffer and government, I would have taken the video, reposted it, and said I would neverall my, you know, I agree with all six of them. I'm going to have them down for coffee tomorrow. And I promise you I'd never order you to do anything illegal. Instead, the absolute, you know, meltdown from the core over something that should be so obvious they shouldn't have even made. I mean, cuz now if you're, if you'rei don't even think you have to be a skeptic of Maga and Trump. Why do they care so much that anyone would say only do that which is legal. Why else as just sort of a profile of a potential criminal mindset? Why would you freak out unless you intended on issuing illegal orders?
- [29:27]
Michael Feinberg
Because these are easily the most insecure in terms of intellectual candle power, in terms of moral authority, in terms of government experience. These are the most immature people who have ever occupied the executive branch in the history of the United States. You know, I'm probably a bit more of an originalist than most of our audience, but I think one thing the founders did say that all of us would agree upon is that our form of government only works so long as the men and women who are willing to take on its responsibilities have some sense of virtue. And the reason you would have reacted differently when you were in the White House is because you have a sense of public service and the virtue that requires. Pete Hegseth, Kash Patel, Donald Trump, they don't care about their country. They care about its trappings of power in as much as they can leverage them for personal aggrandizement. They're not going to react how normal public servants would because they can't understand the concept of public service. And you know, I think there's one thing we should note that the senators have figured out that a lot of other Americans haven't yet, and that is this administration will back down if people push back and stand up to them. You know, compare the state that Jenner and Block or Covington and Burling are in for standing up to his attempt to revoke their security clearances versus a firm like Paul Weiss, which is never going to recover its reputation. Just if you do the right thing, they're going to stop, right?
- [31:25]
Host (possibly a news anchor or journalist)
They just, they, they, they go somewhere else. It's true. Tom Nichols, thank you for starting us off on this story. Melissa and Michael, stick around after the break for us. Dozens of firsthand accounts of what is happening right now inside the Department of Justice. And could there be a leadership change atop the FBI? We'll get to all those reports next.
- [31:53]
Michael Feinberg
Deadline.
- [31:54]
Tom Nichols
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Melissa Murray
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Melissa Murray
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- [33:25]
Host (possibly a news anchor or journalist)
If you believe that someday soon there will be accountability for any person who has abused and perverted the rule of law in service of Donald Trump's zealous retribution campaign, then you can pretty easily see how Donald Trump's own purge of the Department of Justice is creating the record that will be used to ensure that accountability. Some of the most devastating indictments of what Donald Trump and his allies have done to the Department of Justice and to the rule of law in this country are coming from inside the house, from career staffers on their way out. The group Justice Connection, formed earlier this year as a lifeline for former employees of DOJ, has compiled farewell letters from some of the 5,500 or so staffers who have either been fired or have resigned. Carrie Syme, a former trial attorney, writes this in her farewell letter, quote, this was and remains deeply important work that remains nearly invisible to the public. I will not, however, serve this current incarnation of the department. It defines justice in a way that I do not recognize. But please remember that the vast majority of DOJ attorneys are people of goodwill who are trying to maintain a true sense of justice. What's more, they're doing it while being subjected to unimaginably stressful circumstances, if not outright cruelty. Joshua Stubby, who worked in the Office of Public affairs, writes this quote, when I left the Marines as a disabled veteran, I was offered the chance to serve my country again as a federal employee. It has been an honor to serve this department under multiple administrations led by both Republicans and Democrats, each of whom have previously treated career staff with respect and dignity. It is heartbreaking to see that basic decency come to an end. Some of the sharpest words are reserved for the department's Trump appointed leadership. From Patty Hartman of the D.C. u.S. Attorney's office, quote, the people in charge who are supposed to protect us are fellow Americans who we elected along with those who who were appointed and swore an oath to protect this nation and our Constitution now use the Constitution as a weapon to suit their own ends. And from Barbara Schwabauer of the Civil Rights Division, quote, it is leadership based on a fundamental lack of kindness and reliance on a lazy playbook with just three divide, erase and insult. Michael and Melissa are still with us. That last letter, Michael Feinberg, has an echo of Secretary Mattis resignation letter back 1.0, especially the line about division being the aim of Trump and his senior lieutenants. How did these letters and these words land with you?
- [36:08]
Michael Feinberg
Well I should note because Justice Connection did put them together. I serve on the organization's advisory committee and my own letter of resignation is included in that collection. But I think the last letter you read and its talk about division being the goal and them not understanding compassion or empathy or words to that effect are something that every public servant who did the job in good faith will implicitly understand. In the early days of this administration a leader who I once worked for was forced out and I sent him a note using our personal addresses just saying how great it had been to work for him. And this is somebody who very much had done some of the toughest, most dangerous, most tactical work that the FBI can do. He was not a blushing violet. He has been in many situations where he risked his own life to save others. And his final words to me were, never forget that there is no mission, no matter how important, that cannot be done with compassion and respect. And that's something that is totally lost upon current FBI and DOJ leadership.
- [37:29]
Host (possibly a news anchor or journalist)
Can you tell us a little bit more about the kind of people who have been purged? I mean, I think that people. One of its strengths in normal times is that the men and women of the FBI let their work and the power of protecting other Americans and communities from cyber crimes, from. From transnational gangs, from sex trafficking, from really, really bad stuff means that we don't really know a lot about these people. But what is it like to have a job that, as you said, is dangerous work? Someone who risked their life, did it not for a lot of money, and then to be kicked out of doing that job on behalf of the country?
- [38:13]
Michael Feinberg
Well, look, it's the greatest job in the world. You make a decent living. Not a ton, but a decent living. And you're entrusted by society to protect others who are unable to do so. You get to wake up every morning of your life, put on a badge, put on a gun, put a pair of credentials in your pocket, and know that you are going to spend the next 10 to 12 other hours making the world a better place for your fellow citizens. There is really no greater gift in the world. There is no higher honor. And to have that ripped from you the way that so many have by people who could never possibly even conceive of the selflessness that the DOJ and FBI workforce exhibits every day. It's, you know, speaking personally, it's the most heartbreaking thing that's ever happened to me. And every other person I've spoken to in a similar situation feels the exact same. It's a wound that is never going to heal.
- [39:22]
Host (possibly a news anchor or journalist)
I think it's just easy to get ourselves into the politics of this and forget about the human experience. Maureen Comey's letter is among the letters. She, of course, had one of the most direct relationships with the victims of his heinous sex trafficking crimes, especially against girls. I want to read from that on the other side of a short break. We'll all be right back. We're back with Michael and Melissa. Melissa, this is from Maureen Comey's resignation letter that's also in the book. For the majority of my nearly 10 years in SDNY, fear was never really conceivable. We don't fear bad press. We have the luxury of exceptional security keeping us physically safe. And so long as we did our work with integrity, we would get to keep serving the public. In this office, our focus was really on acting without favor, making sure people with access, money and power were not treated differently than anyone else, and making sure this office remained separate from politics and focused only on the facts and the law.
- [40:24]
Melissa Murray
So she's saying a couple of things. One, it had been the case that the Justice Department operated with some degree of independence from the White House. The Justice Department was not the President's personal law firm, and apparently that has dissembled to some degree. But she's also making a more subtle point that public servants, federal employees enjoy civil service protections, which means that they can't simply be fired because the President is in a fit of pique or doesn't like something that they do. They actually have to have cause to fire you. Like, you have to have done your job improperly. There's some kind of malfeasance. And what we are seeing throughout this administration, not just in Maureen Comey's case, but elsewhere. Lisa Cook, Rebecca Slaughter, these commissioners of independent agencies who are being removed by the President for all kinds of reasons, is the deterioration of those kinds of protections, the civil service protections that exist, and Congress's own prerogatives to set the terms under which those independent commissioners of the independent agencies can be appointed in the circumstances under which they can be removed. The Supreme Court next week will hear a case, Trump vs. Slaughter, about whether or not these independent officers can be removed simply because the President says so. And if the court says that, yes, the President can do that, and I think they likely will, that's going to be open season on what this President thinks he can do and will not only be thinking about the unitary executive, it'll be the unitary executive, metallic across the entire substance of government and what checks would remain, whatever Congress might be able to promulgate. So good luck getting Congress together to do something.
- [42:02]
Host (possibly a news anchor or journalist)
But another rallying cry for the midterms.
- [42:04]
Melissa Murray
Oh, a huge. I mean, obviously the ultimate accountability here is what the voters do. But I will just say, in the 2024 election, I was reading Project 2025, where they said explicitly, let's dismantle the civil service protection. And I said to people, hey, this is like disasterpiece theater. They are going to literally purge the federal government. And people are like the price of eggs. And, you know, we're not going to like, we don't care. You should care. This is the substance of government. These are experts, career professionals being pushed out on a whim.
- [42:34]
Host (possibly a news anchor or journalist)
Do you think people care now?
- [42:36]
Melissa Murray
I think now they care. I mean, I think now they are feeling it in ways they haven't. I mean, surely you feel it in Virginia where so much of the residents of Northern Virginia work in the federal government. I think that's why so many turned out for Abigail Spamberger in that off cycle election. So I think people do get it now, but we really needed them to.
- [42:56]
Host (possibly a news anchor or journalist)
Get it in 2024, black and white. Someone who might be out of his federal job might be Cash Patel. Michael Feinberg, our colleagues Kandelanean and Caroline reporting that. And I'm sorry, Laura Baron Lopez are reporting that Trump has possibly tired of him. Let me read from that story. Quote, president Donald Trump is considering removing Kash Patel as FBI director in the coming months as he and his top aides have grown increasingly frustrated by the unflattering headlines Patel has recently generated, according to three people with knowledge of the situation who spoke anonymously. I mean, this is maybe the most obvious Trump story I've covered in 11 and a half months. But even Trump seems to be growing tired of Kash Patel.
- [43:41]
Michael Feinberg
Yeah, well, there's a few things to unpack in that story. The first is any political appointee, Kash Patel or otherwise, who works at the sufferance of Donald Trump should remember how few appointees from day one of the first Trump term were there on its last day. Four years later, with the exception of the secretary of the Treasury, I can't think of a single cabinet official who lasted all four years. So that's point one. Point two, it is no secret to anybody inside or outside of the government that Cash Patel is out of his death. You know, Pam Bondi is nowhere near qualified to be the attorney general of the United States, but at least she has as her deputy, you know, somebody who spent time in the Justice Department as a federal prosecutor. Catch Patel has Dan Bongino. I'm sure the outcome of a case depends on hosting a fiery podcast. The FBI will get their man. But absent that scenario, I just don't see who actually knows what they're doing in that building at this point.
- [45:00]
Host (possibly a news anchor or journalist)
I mean, I know that that's true, but hearing it out loud is so ridiculous, it makes you laugh, even in despair. Melissa Murray and Michael Feinberg, thank you both for spending the hour with me after the break. He discouraged flu shots. He hit a whooping cough outbreak and spread vaccine misinformation. We'll tell you more about the new number two at the CDC next. It is officially flu season, and if you're looking for any advice or guidance, we urge you to call your doctor and maybe not the CDC. The name number two at the CDC is now Dr. Ralph Lee Abraham. He is someone with a long history of vaccine skepticism from his time as Louisiana Surgeon General, where he ordered the state health department to stop promoting vaccinations and has called Covid vaccines, quote, dangerous. HHS did not announce his appointment and many CDC employees seem to be unaware of his appointment, according to the New York Times. So here's more from the New York Times. On his resume, he has endorsed avoiding Tylenol in pregnancy except, quote, when absolutely necessary because of a possible link to autism during the COVID 19 pandemic, he backed the drug hydroxychloroquine. And under his leadership, Louisiana's health department waited two months to alert residents about a whooping cough outbreak that had caused two deaths. We will continue to stay on top of this story. And again, we urge you to follow the advice of your doctor after the break. What Donald Trump and his administration don't want you to believe about your spending the next hour of deadline White House starts after a quick break.
- [46:46]
Michael Feinberg
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