"Driving our government into the ground"

Summary

Podcast Summary: Deadline: White House

Episode: "Driving our government into the ground"
Date: September 30, 2025
Host: Nicolle Wallace (MSNBC)
Notable Guests: Congresswoman Madeline Dean, Vaughn Hilliard, Annie Carney, Vittoria Elliot, Angelo Carusone, Christy Greenberg

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Overview

In this episode, Nicolle Wallace tackles the looming federal government shutdown set for midnight, providing a real-time analysis of the unfolding crisis. Through candid interviews and timely reporting, she explores responsibility for the shutdown, its severe consequences for Americans, and the underlying political motivations. The discussion broadens to the rise of political disinformation, the dangerous normalization of AI deepfakes, and the Department of Justice’s weaponization, offering a stark portrait of governance under Donald Trump's second term.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Looming Government Shutdown

Segment: 01:04–14:35

• Who Is Responsible?

  • Wallace and her guests emphasize that, despite controlling all branches, Republicans—led by Trump—are orchestrating the shutdown.
  • Congresswoman Dean: Republicans "abdicated their Article 1 power of the purse, gave it over to the president, and now they're in a pickle." (06:34)

• Immediate Impacts:

  • 750,000 federal employees to be furloughed.
  • CDC communications, air traffic controller training, and the Bureau of Labor Statistics’ work all suspended.
  • Military/National Guard to serve without pay until shutdown ends.
  • Economic data delays risk “flying blind” (02:18).

• Specific Harm to Constituents:

  • ACA/Medicaid/Medicare cuts highlighted; at least 20,000 risk losing health care in Dean’s district alone.
  • Dean: "He [Speaker Johnson] was happy that people were going to be losing their health care. He thought they need to go off the rolls of Medicaid. I implored him... Your own constituents will be hurt by this." (03:28–04:28)

• Failure of Negotiation:

  • No meaningful discussions until the crisis point; Speaker allegedly sent members home, making shutdown inevitable.
  • Dean: "There haven't been negotiations... The dealmaker made no deal and then tweeted out that despicable thing in late in the evening." (08:01)

• Cynical Political Strategy:

  • Assertion that shutdown is intentional, part of a plan to "decimate federal agencies."
  • Dean: "I think they wanted to shut it down all along. Why would you send your members home? Every Democrat is here. We're here to do our job." (06:51)

• Public Perception:

  • Voters care less about blame and more about government functioning.
  • Dean: "You could not and would not run a business this way... and certainly no way to run a government when you know that you are going to hurt people directly." (11:22)

Notable Quote:

"The cruelty is the point."
— Congresswoman Madeline Dean (11:47)

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2. The Role of Disinformation and AI Deepfakes

Segment: 24:17–32:08

• Trump's Use of AI-Generated Content:

  • Trump circulated an AI-generated video of House Leader Hakeem Jeffries in a sombrero/mustache after a White House negotiation, which Wallace and Dean call explicitly racist.
  • Also posted a fake video about “medbeds,” a conspiracy theory claiming miraculous healing technology.

• Impact of Disinformation:

  • Angelo Carusone (Media Matters): "There’s something very powerful in these AI images... It gives them a validation, something very concise for the story that has been percolating in their ears, on their podcast, on their TV for the past week." (27:12)

• Liar's Dividend & Narrative Dominance:

  • The proliferation of deepfakes allows liars to dismiss truthful accusations as “fake news,” muddying the waters for the public.
  • Carusone: "The more he pollutes the ecosystem, the more he is then able to exploit that pollution for his own gain... It gives him the ability to distort so much truth." (28:58)

• Wider Concerns About Technocracy:

  • Vittoria Elliot (Wired) introduces the “network state” concept, where tech billionaires seek to bypass traditional governance, creating their own autonomous enclaves.
  • Tech’s anti-democratic ethos is likened to escaping responsibility and community compromise.

Notable Quote:

"The damage of Trump doing this more regularly...pays the ultimate liar's dividend because... anytime something truthful is said about them, they can just say, well, it was misinformation, it was a deep fake."
— Angelo Carusone (28:58)

"It's as if they don't want to learn how to live in a society where we're managing difference... the answer is to exit."
— Vittoria Elliot (32:08)

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3. Weaponization of the DOJ; Stage-managed Political Persecution

Segment: 36:32–44:41

• DOJ Targeting Political Opponents:

  • Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche, Trump's former defense lawyer, is caught on tape orchestrating the arrest of Newark's Democratic mayor.
  • Blanche knowingly instructed law enforcement to "turn off body cams" as the mayor was handcuffed on what turned out to be bogus charges.

• Legal Analysis:

  • Christy Greenberg (former SDNY): "This is about the staging of it... So far outside what he should be discussing."
  • The DOJ’s actions are seen as stagecraft for political retribution, not law enforcement.
  • New York Times reporting cited Blanche as knowing Trump wants “revenge, not a legal lecture.”

• Implications for Rule of Law:

  • Unprecedented top-down interference in routine law enforcement.
  • Charges quickly dropped; mayor now pursuing a lawsuit for vindictive prosecution.

Notable Quotes:

"It's captured, but, you know, they dropped the charges. It used to be that if you charged a case as a prosecutor and the case fell apart... that doesn't seem to be the case here."
— Christy Greenberg (41:36)

"Turn off the body cam. It's get rid of the evidence that would show what we're doing. It's outrageous."
— Christy Greenberg (44:41)

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Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

• On Shutdown Responsibility & Honesty

  • Dean recounts confronting Speaker Johnson on both shutdown tactics and racism:

    "You owe the American people honesty... Did you call it out?... You should call it out for the racist, bigoted thing that it was." (04:05)

  • Wallace, on the overt racism of the AI deepfake:

    "Mike Johnson doesn't know if a picture of Leader Hakeem Jeffries donning a sombrero and a mustache is or is not racist?" (05:20)

• On Trump's Attitude Toward Shutdowns

  • Vaughn Hilliard:

    "The last thing we want to do is a shutdown. But a lot of good can come down from shutdowns... You have to do layoffs." (15:56)

• On Disinformation & AI

  • Wallace:

    "Such AI generated content being amplified by this president... has the potential in this moment for catastrophic new consequences." (24:45)

• On DOJ's Transformation

  • Greenberg:

    "That's not only not his job, but I mean, it's a complete abdication of any responsibility that he has. His job is to say, here are the facts, here's the law, here's calling balls and strikes, not to just be a puppet of the president, and that's what he is." (41:15)

  • "None of this is normal." (44:41)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:04–14:35: Congresswoman Dean details shutdown impact, Republican strategy, and the mechanics/politics behind the chaos.
• 15:03–21:38: Annie Carney and Vaughn Hilliard discuss the negotiating deadlock, party strategies, and Trump’s motivations and rhetoric.
• 24:17–32:08: AI disinformation, narrative dominance, tech billionaires' vision of exit from democratic society, and implications for democracy.
• 36:32–44:41: DOJ's aggressive pursuit of Trump’s opponents; stage-managed arrest of Newark’s mayor analyzed by Christy Greenberg.

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Conclusion

This episode provides a sobering look at the orchestrated government shutdown, laying blame on a Republican majority and a president whose administration now normalizes cruelty, disinformation, and political revenge. Wallace’s guests expose not only the immediate harm to American lives and democracy but also spotlight the longer-term erosion of norms—from racist deepfakes to the brazen weaponization of law enforcement. Through candid quotes, real-time analysis, and pressing constitutional concerns, the episode frames this political dysfunction as both a deliberate strategy and a systemic threat, concluding with a call to remain vigilant in the face of governmental and informational breakdown.

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Transcript

[Nicole Wallace]

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[Vaughn Hilliard]

Unfortunately, it seems Donald Trump and his Republican henchmen are hell bent pushing us toward a government funding shutdown rather than saving health care for their constituents.

[Congresswoman Madeline Dean]

They've already fired 150,000 federal workers without any approval from us in Congress. And that is, I think they're going to continue to do that. Decimate federal agencies and skewer the very things that keep costs down for Americans and allow Americans to thrive.

[Nicole Wallace]

Hi again everyone. It's now five o' clock. In New York. The clock is ticking. This hour, the United States Senate is set to begin voting on two government funding bills. Both are expected to fail, meaning in just seven hours the United States government will shut down. There has been plenty of back and forth and finger pointing from lawmakers, but the bottom line is this. Despite running the House and the Senate and the White House, Republicans are the ones driving the government into the ground at a time when a majority of the public already disapproves of how Donald Trump is managing the federal government. In addition to the 750,000 government employees who would be furloughed due to this shutdown tonight, here's a little bit of how this affects all of us. The CDC has said communications to the American public about health related information will be impacted. The Department of Transportation said hiring and training of air traffic controllers would be suspended. It would stop all active duty personnel, the United States military and the National Guard must continue their assigned duties. But they won't get paid until the shutdown ends. And at this critical moment for our economy, the Bureau of Labor Statistics said this month's Jobs report could be delayed in and data collection for future reports would be paused, making further economic decisions and accurate information all the more difficult to access. The chief economist at the consulting firm EY Parthenon told the New York Times this quote, flying blind amidst heavy fog is a dangerous proposition. The United States government barreling toward a shutdown is where we begin the hour with Congresswoman Madeline Dean. Congresswoman, our cameras caught you talking to Speaker Mike Johnson. Can you tell us about that conversation?

[Congresswoman Madeline Dean]

Yes. I implored the speaker that he should have brought his members here so that if there were a chance to solve this without shutting the government down, we would have been able to do that. But in the absence of that, by him sending everybody home or on vacation, he effectively created a shutdown. When we had tried today in the pro forma to open up and to put legislation in, they shut it down. So Republicans have shut down, shut this down. But much more importantly, Nicole, what I said to him is, you owe the American people honesty. He tried to argue to me, this is a clean CR number one. My constituents don't care about a cr. They wonder why we are trying to do band aid, temporary stopgap government spending bills. And don't be fooled by the notion that it's clean. It is nothing but clean. It continues the deep cuts to health care, to Medicaid, to Medicare, to the aca, to cdc, to nih, to research, to snap. Sadly, do you know what the speaker said? He was happy that people were going to be losing their health care. He thought they need to go off the rolls of Medicaid. I implored him. I said, that is not something to wish for. Your own constituents will be hurt by this. But much more importantly, tell the truth. I also asked him what he thought of the tweet last night after the meeting in the Oval Office with our leadership and Senate leadership. What he thought of the tweet that the President put with our leader in a sombrero nodding with a mustache, and Schumer saying things, of course, that he never said. The speaker said that was not his style. I said, did you call it out? You should call it out for the racist, bigoted thing that it was. And he questioned whether or not it was racist.

[Nicole Wallace]

Let me just drill down on that. Mike Johnson doesn't know if a picture of Leader Hakeem Jeffries donning a sombrero and a mustache is or is not racist.

[Congresswoman Madeline Dean]

I said that very thing. I said, an African American leader of the House donning a sombrero and mustache. You don't see the bigotry in that. You don't see the racism in that. That's a problem, Nicole.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, there's so many problems. I feel like we could talk about this for all of our time together, but I want to ask you to do something for me. I didn't work on the Hill and I need sort of shut down for dummies. Tell me why we're here and what paths exist right now to get out of it.

[Congresswoman Madeline Dean]

Well, and you don't need it for dummies. This place sometimes is more complicated than it really is. We're here because the Republican majority, remember, as you pointed out in your opener, the Republican majority, House, Senate, White House has failed all year long to get through the 12 appropriations bills in order to get us a fully funded government. We did have three on newly on appropriations. It was a very dysfunctional set of committee hearings and markups with secretaries coming in not knowing what their numbers were, had no idea what they were talking about. But much more importantly, we were unable to do our constitutional duty, which is to fund the government. It's that simple. The Republicans are in control. They abdicated their Article 1 power of the purse, gave it over to the president, and now they're in a pickle. They're going to shut it down. But you know what? I think they wanted to shut it down all along. Why would you send your members home? Every Democrat is here. We're here to do our job. If there was a solving moment here, if there were adults coming to the table, wouldn't you want your members here to avoid the shutdown? They shut this down and it didn't have to be this way. And who's going to get hurt? My constituents. Constituents all across this country, most especially around their health care. Starting tomorrow, they're going to start to get notices on their ACA premiums and the changes to that. In my district alone, suburban Philadelphia, at least 20,000 people are at risk of losing their health care. Those are real people with real needs and they are directly going to be hurt. The president wanted to shut this government down, I will tell you that. You saw what Russ Votes said. He's not talking about furloughing federal employees. He's talking about firing them. That's what this is all about.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, I guess my question is what are you, what are the negotiations about then? If this is what they wanted all along?

[Congresswoman Madeline Dean]

That's the problem. There haven't been negotiations. As you know, yesterday was the first Oval Office meeting. The dealmaker made no deal and Then tweeted out that despicable thing in late in the evening. I don't know what went wrong there. There were no negotiations. Let me give you a glimmer of hope. I just came from an appropriations meeting where in three subcommittees, there are 12 bills, 12 subcommittee bills that we have to deal with in three Milcon, Defense, Ledge affairs and Agriculture. There have been some conversations, some negotiations. That's three of 12. And that has nothing to do with tonight's deadline. The Republicans have failed to negotiate in good faith. They have a president who is unwell. I asked the speaker about that. I said, did you see the performance in front of the generals today? He said he had not seen it. I said, the president is unwell. Somebody needs to talk to him.

[Nicole Wallace]

What is the end game if what they wanted was the shutdown that it sounds like you believe they're going to get? In six hours time, they're going to get it.

[Congresswoman Madeline Dean]

I don't know what the end game is, except I believe they will finally feel pressure from their own constituents. Maybe they'll be ashamed that our military will be serving and waiting for their pay until the shutdown is over. Maybe they'll be ashamed that their own staff have to wait for their pay. Maybe they'll be ashamed that the Capitol Police officers who keep us safe every single day will have to wait for their pay. I hope some sense of shame and responsibility to run a government actually comes forward in some of these Republican members. But right now, with the leadership that they are under, we're in a very sorry state. Somewhere there will be enough pressure. But in the meantime, my constituents are getting hurt. The faithful servants of our federal government are getting hurt. Air traffic controllers will continue to keep us safe. Our military will continue to keep us safe. Safe as we disrespect them and don't pay them on time.

[Nicole Wallace]

Congresswoman, at hud, a federal agency, I believe, restricted by things like the Hatch Act. I know that doesn't get a lot of billing in Trump's Washington, but this is a banner on its website, Quote, the radical left are going to shut down the government and inflict massive pain in the American people unless they get their $1.5 trillion wish list of demands. The Trump administration wants to keep the government open for the American people. As you said, the Republicans aren't even there. And we all know that the Speaker's other title is White House Head of Leg Affairs. I mean, if Trump wanted them there to avert a shutdown, they'd be there. What do you do about the lies and disinformation about who's to blame for the shutdown.

[Congresswoman Madeline Dean]

Well, and I don't think people outside of here are concerned with who's to blame. As I told you, Republicans aren't here so they effectively recognize they want a shutdown. People at home don't really care who's to blame. I think they're savvy enough to know that the Republicans have the trifecta. And when you have that, it's your duty to govern. If we don't agree, if Democrats don't agree with their deep cuts to health care, with their deep cuts to snap, with their deep cuts across all of our agencies, then they just need to get their bills passed with their majorities. It's on them. I know my constituents understand that. And they care less about the finger pointing and they want us to function. We're now going on more than a year CR it's no way to run a government. You could not and would not run a business this way. I was thinking of the speaker sending folks home. Could you imagine if we were running a company? And I said, we're in grave danger of going bankrupt. We have until September 30th to figure this out. But I want you all to just go home now. We'll just have to let it go. It's no way to run a small business, a medium business, a large business, a family, and certainly no way to run a government when you know that you are going to hurt people directly. But you've said this. I believe you've said it. It's been discussed on your show, this administration. The cruelty is the point.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah. What do you, what do you think will happen in the coming days? I mean, do you think that negotiations will commence? I mean, who pays ice? Do we think they'll continue to get paid? They seem important to Trump and the Republicans.

[Congresswoman Madeline Dean]

That's a great question. And I think of the military being sent to our streets. How absurd and dangerous is all of that? I don't know the answer on ice. I can try to get that easily for you. What happens over the next few days? I'll tell you what, what Democrats are doing. Most of us are going to be here. Some of us will go back and forth to our districts to make sure that we are checking in and revealing the impacts in our districts. But we're going to be here this week. We are supposed to be in session, according to the speaker, next Monday through Tuesday, Tuesday through Friday. So I would suspect that at that time we'd have the chance to have some negotiations going on this week and over the weekend. Weekend. You know that we have a new member, Ms. Grijalva, representative, that we were hoping to swear in today. But you noticed how the pro forma session was closed as quickly as it was open. Because they would not have wanted us to have a new member sworn in today.

[Nicole Wallace]

Is that because they don't want the votes on releasing the Epstein files?

[Congresswoman Madeline Dean]

Yes. She will be the 218th vote that will force the speaker and the Republicans to deal with the Epstein resolutions and the Epstein bill and the release of those documents. It's very strange. Maybe it isn't for this Republican Party. They recently swore in two of their newly elected members within a day or two of their election in a pro forma session. So don't listen to any of the nonsense. Oh, it's not regular order, anything like that. They didn't want a 218th signature on the Epstein files. You see the chaos everywhere. We're trying to cover up here for the Epstein. We're trying to cover up here for the unhinged behavior of the president or of Mr. Hegseth. There's chaos everywhere.

[Nicole Wallace]

Congresswoman, thank you so much for breaking it down for us and for indulging some of my ignorance about how a shutdown becomes a shutdown.

[Congresswoman Madeline Dean]

I hope I made any sense of what is really nonsensical here.

[Nicole Wallace]

More clarity than I've had all week trying to understand it. Thank you so much. Thank you. Let me add to our coverage, MSNBC senior White House correspondent, my friend and colleague, Vaughn Hilliard. Also joining us, New York Times congressional correspondent Annie Carney. Annie, your reporting on where things stand. I mean, the congresswoman suggested that they're nowheresville basically in terms of even having a forum or a schedule to negotiate any further.

[Annie Carney]

Yeah, I mean, everyone's dug in. No one's blinking. It has made the entire day on the Hill a little bit anticlimactic. I mean, usually there's at least a negotiation going on that makes these things interesting. Everyone's position is clear. No one is talking to each other. Democrats are trying to drive home that they're there to save health care. That is the message they want. Republicans want to say that Democrats are, you know, asking for a trillion dollars to just extend government funding for a month and that that's absolutely ridiculous. They're saying that this discussion over health care is fine, but it shouldn't be tied to the bill. No one is moving. Everyone isI mean, everyone is making plans for a shutdown. At this point, the conversation is Just how do we ever get out of it? It's very clear that we're going into it.

[Nicole Wallace]

Vaughn Hilliard, is this what Donald Trump wanted.

[Vaughn Hilliard]

Just a few moments ago inside of the Oval Office? I will just read you directly. He said, the last thing we want to do is a shutdown. But a lot of good can come down from shutdowns. We can get rid of a lot of things that we didn't want. They would be Democrat things. He went on to say, when you shut it down, you have to do layoffs. So you'd be laying off a lot of people that are going to be very effective. A lot of good can come from shutdowns. Those were the words from the President of the United States here just this afternoon as this shutdown looms. And I think it's, I think, important context also that today happens to be the final day for about 100,000 federal workers to be on payroll because those individuals that took the deferred resignation route earlier this year, their federal service actually ends tonight. And we're now looking at a reduction of the federal workforce force already at 300,000. And now his OMB director, Russ Vode, is directly threatening explicitly to fire even more federal workers across agencies, those they have struggled to fire through DOGE efforts as a means of a potential consequence of moving forward with this shutdown.

[Nicole Wallace]

The federal government that supports things that Donald Trump just described there as, quote, Democrat things also funds ice, and I believe ICE has more federal funding than it's had since it was invented. Is Donald Trump seem aware of that when he says things like that?

[Vaughn Hilliard]

He did not answer specifically about that, but he was asked, we should say, by a reporter about why DOGE just couldn't move forward with these firings. And he went on to make the claims that what Democrats are demanding is to fund health care for undocumented immigrants, which is just not the case. And I think, if I may, Nicole, you know, actually my second month here in Washington was the Ted Cruz Green Eggs and Ham Affordable Health Care act shutdown that lasted, I think, 17 days and in the 12 years since have covered suddenly a couple shutdowns and multiple threats of shutdowns. And I think where we're at in this moment here is I think it's hard to pare shutdowns down in logical, you know, how does this impact each political party in real time? And what it does is undermine the trust in Washington governance. And I think that the president is effectively acknowledging that by openly saying that his executive branch can move forward with his own Actions regardless of Congress being involved. I mean, back during that 37 day shutdown back in 2019, I went down to North Carolina, talked to air traffic controllers. I was out in Utah talking to IRS workers, in Colorado, talking to Federal Bureau of Prison employees and National Forest Service employees. And those conversations I don't think are much different than those that are happening in kitchens across America right now. And that is home mortgages, that is groceries, those are car loan payments, those are student loans loans. Ultimately, this comes down to a frustration with Washington. And in large part you saw a president that clearly was the one who oversaw the longest shutdown in American history during his first administration and here today believes that there were not long term political ramifications for him. And here openly on camera in the Oval Office suggesting that there could be some good that comes from a shutdown. And now it's up to Democrats on whether they respond in kind or whether they hold firm.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean Annie, he did lose. It was 38 days long. He did go on to lose in 2020. So he can believe whatever he wants to believe. I think what we've all read about is media diet. That shouldn't be surprising. I want to ask you about this, this, this thing that's I've heard a bunch of times both sides are dug in. I mean one side controls everything and sent all their members home and the other side is trying to protect more damage from being done.

[Congresswoman Madeline Dean]

How?

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, what is the other option for Democrats just acquiescing to what?

[Annie Carney]

Well, we saw it in March when Chucki mean the holdup is the Senate. They need a handful six or eight Democratic votes to pass it in the Senate. And in March we saw Chuck Schumer struggle with this exact question of do we want to stand up against the Trump administration or provide them with the votes that would allow them to pass a short term government funding bill. And he made the other decision in March and Democrats gave them the votes to pass a short term bill. The political ramifications on that on Chuck Schumer and Democrats were negative. I mean he suffered politically for that and he still is. And that is part of the calculus of why they don't want to provide those votes again this time. The argument that Democrats are making is that it's different now since March. What has changed is Trump passed the very, very unpopular big beautiful bill and Democrats Schumer has been arguing that they have a mandate now that these Medicaid slashing bill is deeply unpopular. They have a mandate from the American people to restore the ACA credits to restore health care funding. And that's why this is different from March. Also, we're seeing a united Democrats. We're not hearing any of the moderate Democrats that might be more, more politically wanting to keep the government open to vote, to be bipartisan, to vote with Republicans. We're not seeing anyone making those noises. Democrats are pretty united in the position that there is no deal here. They're not going to give away their votes for nothing.

[Nicole Wallace]

Annie Carney and Vaughn Hilliard, thank you so much for your reporting on this and making sense of all of it for us. When we come back, as we discussed with Congressman how Donald Trump pushed out a racist deepfake video filled with, I don't even know how to describe it, absolute fictional lies and disinformation from the President of the United States. He did that as part of his endeavor to rewrite the facts and blame the looming shutdown on Democrats, as you just heard from Vaughn and Annie, who as we've all established, do not control a single branch of government. We'll have a conversation about why Trump is turning to such egregious fabrications using AI next. Also had more evidence of how Trump's former personal defense attorney Todd Blanche, who is now the number two official at the United States Department of Justice, is taking on an outsized role going after Democrats and Donald Trump's perceived political critics than opponents. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

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The adjectives are endless. It is childish. It is crass. It is vulgar. It's, of course, unpresidential. It's dumb. But what makes Donald Trump's most recent attack on Democratic leaders different from all the others is the technology he relied upon to make it and use it and deploy it, and the dire warning that represents about misinformation and fake things being used by a president, opening up a whole new frontier for our democracy. Following his meeting on an impending shutdown yesterday with Minority Leader Schumer and Jeffries, Donald Trump shared an AI generated video on social media. Leader Jeffries is pictured wearing a sombrero and a fake mustache, while Schumer goes about making a fake speech he never actually said or delivered about how Democrats are trying to provide free health care for undocumented immigrants. Days earlier, Donald Trump reposted a different AI generated fake video. In that fake video, a now deleted fake newscast, Donald Trump promises Americans access to something called medbeds. Med beds are the stuff of real fringe conspiracy theories. It's about secret alien technology capable of curing diseases, regrowing lost limbs, and reversing aging. One of the three Sign me up. Sure, it's ludicrous. I'm embarrassed even telling you this, but because Donald Trump did it and we know after January 6th, a lot of people do what he tells them to do. It's important. So bear with me. Such AI generated content being amplified by this president, someone who's famously urged his supporters not to believe what they see or hear or read, has the potential in this moment for catastrophic new consequences. Oh, and by the way, last week the Trump administration approved the AI Chatbox Chatbot Grok, a creation of Elon Musk. That's his AI tool for use across every single federal government agency. That's their new project. Joining our coverage, Wired reporter Victoria Elliot. WIRED's latest issue examines the state of tech's influence on governmental power and the people who will change everything in the future. Also joining us, Media Matters President Angelo Carazone. Angelo, I want to start with you and this thing that you put in my brain that I look at everything through this lens now of narrative dominance. This to me feels like a sign that he knows it's slipping. And this new tool to Me feels like a grab at getting it back. How do you see it?

Yeah, yeah, I think that's a fair point because there's something very powerful in these AI images. I mean, sometimes they're really sophisticated deepfakes designed to actually be presented as truth. Trump himself seemingly fell for that, that AI about the med beds. It didn't seem like he didn't realize that wasn't him actually talking in that Fox News segment. You know, I don't think he posted it in the way he's posted other AI images. For example, of like Chris Christie and Governor Pritzker sumo wrestling.

I think.

I think he knew that was a fake when he posted it. He did it for fun. Right. So there's that, there's that damage there. But then other times, it's a piece of visual collateral that reinforces a narrative that's already percolating in right wing media. And one of the biggest narratives right now in the larger right wing ecosystem, it's fairly universal. Is that the reason why Democrats are resisting fighting this sort of spending as much as they are, why they're threatening to shut down the government of their health care is not health care for American citizens. But the argument is that they're doing it because they want to give health care to illegal immigrants. That's what they are claiming in the right wing media. So when you have a visual clip like this, it's not the first time they're hearing it. They're seeing something that whether or not they know is fake, it doesn't really matter. It gives them a validation, something very concise for the story that has been percolating in their ears, on their podcast, on their TV for the past week. And that's the real power of the most recent attack that he did, because it gives them a concise way and then it implants that false memory. It sort of replaces the image of Schumer and Jeffries there in reality with this version that was produced by AI.

Well, and Angela, just to follow up, it's also likely that the AI image reached people that hadn't even seen the real image, didn't even know that Schumer and Jeffries were at the White House for meeting the Dinko. Very well.

That's right. And I think the damage of Trump doing this more regularly and this has been an increasing trend that we're seeing from him in particular, is that actually this environment, not just Trump, but this environment, environment more broadly, where this becomes more of a common practice, it actually pays the ultimate liar's dividend because in an environment where people have dis difficulty discerning or everything seems like it could potentially be misinformation. The liars benefit the most from that because anytime something truthful is said about them, they can just say, well, it was misinformation, it was a deep fake. Don't believe your lying eyes. Right? And that's the real harm here, is that he doesn't just poison the well from the beginning through these official accounts. And people use his account for official announcements on the back end. The more he pollutes the ecosystem, the more he is then able to exploit that pollution for his own gain. And that's ultimately why this is about narrative dominance, because it gives him the ability to distort so much truth and help put the focus on the narrative that he gets to have so much control and influence over through this right wing ecosystem.

Vittoria, you write this. A growing number of moneyed tech types are trying to build new enclaves where they set the rules. This in some ways is 2025 in a nutshell. For some of the wealthiest and most powerful people on earth today, the political division that matters isn't right or left, Democrat or Republican. It's the nation state versus the network state. Explain.

[Vittoria Elliot]

Wolf, how much time do you have? So the concept of the network state has been particularly popularized by Balaji Sriniva Srinivasan, former executive of Coinbase. And the idea is sort of that the nation state as it stands is a sort of outdated model of democracy and governance. And that the answer to, to that is something called the network state, where you should be able to form a nation, a community with the people that you share a community with online. So it's taking these cloud communities and bringing them down to earth. And we see that in the sort of push by a lot of these tech, these tech billionaires to buy land where they want to start their own cities. Obviously there's different levels of doing this, but the primary tactic is through a special economic zone, which is a place inside a country where the rules and regulations are different. And so for tech billionaires and people that are aligned with them, that can mean you get to do unregulated and medical experimentation, maybe we'll get a med bed. You get to do unregulated use of AI or the use of cryptocurrency. And so in this way, it's sort of taking these industries outside of the oversight of the nation state. And in a way, you know, you have people like Peter Thiel who have been very involved in this as well. And you know, Thiel long ago said that he sort of felt that democracy and freedom as he defines it are incompatible. And so this is sort of the physical manifestation of that. The idea that really the answer for a lot of these super rich people and people that are aligned with them is not necessarily to learn how to live in a society where we're managing difference, where we use government as a way to find compromise, but actually the answer is to exit.

[Nicole Wallace]

It's fascinating that the people who benefited from the country as it is are the ones that want to take their billions. And as you said, exit it. I have to take it a break and I want to ask you about the character of these people who want to do that on the other side. We'll be right back.

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[Congresswoman Madeline Dean]

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[Nicole Wallace]

President Trump continues implementing his ambitious agenda. Follow along with MSNBC's newest newsletter, Project 47. You'll get weekly updates sent straight to your inbox with expert analysis on the administration's latest actions and how they're affecting the American people.

The American people are basically telling the President that they are not okay with any of this.

Sign up for the Project 47 [e-mail] Project 47.

We're back with Vittorio and Angelo. Vittorio, where is this heading and what is the role or the impact of these folks wanting to, as you said, exit and not be part of the society or the nation state that afforded them all the opportunities to be the tech billionaires they are?

[Vittoria Elliot]

Well, I think you have to think of it as a bit of a gradation, right? Like, you know, this comes out of a long history of sort of utopian style exit strategy things, you know, seasteading. The idea that we could create free floating cities that were also sort of outside the purview of any state were very popular about 10 years ago. So I think what we're seeing is this very much older idea that the people who are really wealthy, you know, want their Galt's Gulch from Atlas Shrugged. And I think more than anything, really, what we're seeing is that that ethos of, you know, the people who are super wealthy shouldn't really have to manage across difference. They shouldn't have to make compromises with people who don't their views, desires or values. We're seeing that now in many ways play out in US Government policy as we roll back regulations on these companies as they are pushing more and more to have AI adopted into government. You know, I think in many ways, as much as this sort of overall desire for exit and you know, to some of the people that I spoke to for my piece that are not the super wealthy, but are really excited about the idea of living in these communities with people that share their values, I think we all kind of want that in some way. But this sort of utopian thinking that if we just allow technology to progress as far as it possibly can, as fast as it can, then the outcome is inherently going to be good and it's going to be good for everyone is a line that the tech industry has really sold for a long time. And while that may not be the case, we see a lot of external factors, including the degradation of our information environment from rapid technological adoption. There is still this ethos within a lot of the people who have been very successful in the industry that the best thing to do is to move as fast as possible and to break things if necessary. I think we don't know how many of these projects are going to be successful, but the ethos that they really capture is certainly showing up in the regulation that we're now seeing around the industry in our own government.

[Nicole Wallace]

From Donald Trump, Angelo and Vittoria, the first of, I hope, many conversations. Thank you so much for making me smarter. When we come back, the evidence is growing of how Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche has become Donald Trump's point person for pursuing his perceived political enemies. We'll have that reporting next. In just eight months, Donald Trump's top deputies at the Department of Justice have abandoned any pre of being there to uphold the rule of law with some of the most brazen conduct coming from the top. From Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanch, Donald Trump's former defense attorney. Blanche has personally interviewed Jeffrey Epstein's longtime girlfriend, the convicted sex trafficker Ghislaine Maxwell. He spent nine hours with her, after which she was moved to a lower security prison. He has suggested that people who yelled at Donald Trump in a restaurant could face RICO prosecutions. Now we are learning just how central Todd Blanche is to the Department of Justice's targeting of Democratic lawmakers. That it's actually a call coming from main justice at the highest levels. Brand new body cam footage released by a federal court reveals that Todd Blanche explicitly told federal agents to handcuff Newark C mayor, who happens to be a Democrat, Ross Baraka, outside an immigration detention center in May. Here is that footage.

[Congresswoman Madeline Dean]

No, no, I got it.

[Nicole Wallace]

I got.

[Congresswoman Madeline Dean]

We're taking them right now. All right, let me just.

[Nicole Wallace]

I'm going to take them right now.

Okay. Okay. You.

Even though he stepped out, I'm at the bottom of the coffee. We're here for over an hour and we have the right to be in here. All right, I'm coughing him right now.

[Congresswoman Madeline Dean]

All right, guys, listen to me.

[Nicole Wallace]

We're gonna walk out of the gates.

[Vaughn Hilliard]

I'm gonna place the mayor in handcuffs, okay?

[Nicole Wallace]

We are arresting the mayor right now. Her, the Deputy Attorney General of the United States. Anyone that gets in their way, I.

Need you guys to give me a.

Perimeter so I can puff them and get them on there. If you have body cams, turn them on.

If you have body cams, turn them off. That was the Deputy Attorney General of the United States words that whatever else happens, will live forever as a stain on this country. Joining me at the table, former criminal division deputy chief at SDNY, MSNBC, legal analyst, host of the new YouTube show Courtside. Christy Greenberg's here. I wish I could have this thing. People talk about being numb or not being shocked anymore. This is shocking to me. The Deputy Attorney General of the United States is on the phone with law enforcement, not just talking about an arrest, but stagecrafting it. What happened to Todd Blanche?

[Christy Greenberg]

I don't know. I mean, why is he involved at.

[Nicole Wallace]

That point in the stagecraft? This isn't even just about an arrest and prosecution. This is about the staging of it. Why?

[Christy Greenberg]

I mean, that's so far outside what he should be discussing. And, yeah, where is the U.S. attorney at that point? It was Alina Habba. Like, why is Todd Blanche getting involved? It shows. She kind of really wasn't the one leading the show here. It's coming all the way from the top. The Number two at the Department of Justice, I think it really speaks to. There's an article in the New York Times recently that there was a passage about Todd Blanche that really stuck out to me and is really going to be cited, I think, by any defense attorney of any of these Democratic lawmakers. It talked about the fact that, according to the reporting, that Todd Blanche understands that Donald Trump still sees him as his personal attorney and that he knows his client wanted revenge and not a legal lecture. And so he knew it would be futile to protest too much when Donald Trump is saying he wants people to go to jail. And, I mean, that is stunning, that it's right there in black and white, this drive for vengeance. We know that Trump has it, but that he's communicating, apparently to his, the number two at the Department, and that that person is not pushing back, that he thinks it's futile to even try to talk sense into him, to talk reason to him, that he's just going along with it. That's not only not his job, but I mean, it's a complete abdication of any responsibility that he has. His job is to say, here are the facts, here's the law, here's calling balls and strikes, not to just be a puppet of the president, and that's what he is.

[Nicole Wallace]

Again, I'm increasingly aware of how the world sees us. And this story, which is all captured on tape, is about law enforcement officers on the phone with the second most powerful law enforcement official in the United States of America saying, quote, turn off your body cams for walking out of the gates and arresting him, per the Deputy Attorney General.

[Christy Greenberg]

Right. And not only that, they then had to drop those charges because the whole thing was bogus. And now you have the mayor of Newark bringing a malicious, you know, vindictive prosecution lawsuit against, again, I believe it was in Alina Haba. But maybe after seeing this, he has to add Todd Blanche to the lawsuit like this was. I mean, there was nothing to it. Not only did they act and it's captured, but, you know, they dropped the charges. It used to be that if you charged a case as a prosecutor and the case fell apart, okay, maybe some new evidence came to light, some new information that you didn't know when you charged it. But that doesn't seem to be the case here. It seems like there was no basis. The mayor at that point had already left the facility. The original charges were about him storming the facility. Where was that? We didn't see that. He was already gone at the point where there is the direction this agent is saying from the Department of Justice's number two to go arrest the mayor. For what? For standing outside the facility in his own city. I mean, it's just so outrageous. It just. And again, to what end? What are we doing here? I mean, did he think these charges would stick? Or is it worse he didn't care? Because this is all just to make Donald Trump happy, that there's an appearance that people are acting tough. I don't know the answer to that question, but it begs all of those questions, because none of this is normal.

[Nicole Wallace]

But what would make the Department of Justice even be the agency that a law enforcement agent at an ICE facility would perceive? Like, why wasn't that agent on the phone with Kristine Noem? What does it say about DOJ's oversight of ICE?

[Christy Greenberg]

Yeah, it says that there are people who are a lot more involved than they normally would be. These aren't the swim lanes. Like, there is so many of these law enforcement agencies. There is a pecking order, there is a hierarchy. And. And very rarely are you having direct communications with the number one, number two people at the Department of Justice. I mean, it is extraordinary. And then you wonder, well, why are they so invested? Why are they so involved? To what end? What are they trying to accomplish? Again, we're talking about trespass charges. Like, this is not the crime of the century. Trespass. When the guy had already left.

[Nicole Wallace]

He wasn't trespassing.

[Christy Greenberg]

I mean, they dropped it. So, you know, the fact is they didn't feel they had a case there. But, and again, when you're looking at the mayor of a city, when you are looking at charging a former FBI director, a member of Congress, these are significant people that you are looking to bring a case against. Normally, again, in normal times, you would make sure that was totally buttoned up, that there was before you put handcuffs on anybody, that there is a memo that there are. That there is a really a good understanding of the facts. What facts could he have had? He wasn't there. Who's he communicating with? What is he seeing? There's footage. Turn off the body cam. It's get rid of the evidence that would show what we're doing. It's outrageous.

[Nicole Wallace]

Christy, thank you for being here for this. We'll stay on top of that story. One more break. We'll be right back. On the long, long list of people who live rent free in Donald Trump's mind, Rosie o' Donnell is at the tippy top. But you might be surprised to learn that Donald Trump and Rosie o' Donnell have only met once in real life for about four minutes. So why has Trump been obsessed with her for decades? She has a theory. So his obsession with you over the View appearance is really, as you just said, theatrics?

Well, I think he is very upset that I a girl who reminds him.

[Congresswoman Madeline Dean]

Of all the tough girls in his.

[Nicole Wallace]

Neighborhood who never fell for his or listened to him, who knew he was exactly who he is and knew it as when he was a child. This is a very wounded person, right, Who I don't believe ever learned the tenets of compassion, love, empathy, sympathy, who never read a Bible, who lies first and always. You know, there are people who lie compulsively. He's one of them.

Rosie o' Donnell is my guest on this week's episode of the Best People Podcast. Scan the QR code on your screen to watch the entire conversation on YouTube or download this week's episode. Wherever you get your podcasts, let me know what you think. One more break. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes. We're grateful.