"Each and every cascading controversy"

Summary

Podcast Summary: Deadline: White House – "Each and Every Cascading Controversy"

Date: December 6, 2025
Host: Nicolle Wallace, MS NOW
Main Theme:
This episode examines cascading controversies in Donald Trump’s second presidential term, focusing on legal overreach, impunity in military actions, the return of family separation at the U.S. border, economic woes under Trump, and the erosion of public health protections. Nicolle Wallace and her panel analyze how Trump administration policies are testing American institutions, democratic norms, and the social contract—and how decision-makers and the public are responding.

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Table of Contents

• Introduction: Cascading Controversies
• Presidential Impunity and Rule of Law
• Military Action in the Caribbean: Legality and Motives
• Family Separation Policy Returns
• Economic Reality: Affordability and Job Loss
• Ending Infant Hep B Vaccinations: Public Health Backslide
• Notable Quotes and Moments

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Introduction: Each and Every Cascading Controversy

00:49–01:31

Nicolle Wallace sets the stage, referencing “each and every cascading controversy” of Trump's second term and criticizing the perception—emboldened by a Supreme Court ruling on presidential immunity—that the president is "now a king above the law." She draws a line connecting military overreach, disregard for legal precedent, and a growing threat to the separation of powers.

“Donald Trump and those who work for him believe they can do whatever they want… regardless of the law, regardless of the president, regardless of the damage it does to the institutions…”
— Nicolle Wallace (01:31)

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Presidential Impunity and Rule of Law

01:31–04:13

• Wallace cites Justice Sonia Sotomayor's dissent on presidential immunity, raising alarms about unchecked executive power:

  “Orders the Navy’s Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival. Immune. Organizes a military coup... Immune. Takes a bribe... Immune, immune, immune.” (01:49)

• Judge Florence Pan’s recent dissent is highlighted, warning that expanded executive power “brings us closer to autocracy, harms our nation and violates the separation of powers.”

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Military Action in the Caribbean: Legality and Motives

04:13–16:24

Guest: Sue Gordon (Former Principal Deputy Director of National Intelligence)

Key Points

• Rule of Law vs. Policy Goals:
  Gordon differentiates between the legitimacy of targeting narcotrafficking and the inappropriate implementation that flouts legal processes and values.

  “You don’t get to pursue the policy independent of the rule of law, independent of the processes…” (05:35)

• Hypocrisy:
  Gordon notes the inconsistency between attacking drug traffickers and pardoning known drug dealers.
• America vs. Autocracy:
  She warns that eschewing legal and congressional checks erodes what makes the U.S. distinct from autocracies.

  “That is, in fact, what has made America different from those countries that just do the things they want because you have a personality that wants it a certain way.” (06:43)

• Congressional Oversight:
  She calls for Congress to restore sanity and ensure actions are legitimate and lawful.

  “It is typically the Congress that steps in and puts a break on that. So I hope this is the time...” (11:03)

Discussion Highlights

• Wallace presses Gordon on the dubious rationale for strikes in the Caribbean, pointing out fentanyl’s primary sources are China and Mexico, not Venezuela/caribbean waters. (08:30)

  “Are we doing this for the drugs, or is this about Venezuela?” (08:30)

• Gordon speculates that resource interests, not drug interdiction, may be the real motive.
• Gordon and Wallace discuss the "gray zone"—taking actions outside established definitions to bypass statutory constraints:

  “What gray zone conflict really is, is moving into a space that hasn't been governed by statute or policy. And so I think this is exactly the legal question…” (15:32)

Tactic of Creating a “Gray Zone”

• Not seeking a formal declaration of war could be a calculated move to avoid constraints. (13:52–16:17)

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Presidential Detachment and Institutional Decay

16:24–21:02

• Wallace notes that Trump seems “detached from everything that his government is doing” compared to his previous term.

  “He seems so detached … in a way that I didn’t approve of or like anything he did in the first term, but he didn’t seem as removed from all of it.” (16:35)

• Gordon attributes this to Trump’s linguistic maneuvering—creating deniability—and the loss of experienced, principled civil servants in critical positions.

  “The diminution of the professional cadre in the institutions... leaders and institutions have been diminished and they’re under siege by a retributive administration.” (18:35)

• Both Wallace and Gordon agree that competent, principled appointees benefited Trump politically and functionally, a fact he now disregards. (20:03–21:02)

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Family Separation Policy Returns

23:20–32:37

Panelists: Andrea Flores (former White House immigration official), Basil Smichel (Dem strategist/professor), Rick Stengel (former Under Secretary of State)

Key Points

• Six-Year-Old Child Separated:
  A Chinese immigrant family is forcibly separated, their son moved between shelters as “punishment” for the father’s refusal to board a deportation flight. Flores calls the tactic “torturous.” (25:31)

  “The punishment for this father not getting on a plane is using his child, which is completely inhumane… The tactics being used are torturous.”
  — Andrea Flores (25:31)

• Policy Resurgence:
  ProPublica data shows 600 children separated in less than a year, the highest rate in a decade.
• Coercion as Deterrence:
  Rick Stengel underscores that cruelty is intentional—to generate fear and self-deportations.

  “We talked in the first term about cruelty is the point. Cruelty is the show.” (30:42)

• Public Response:
  Basil Smichel confronts the disconnect: though many Americans claim not to support family separation, Trump’s election empowered him to revive such policies.

  “A lot of people voted for this, even if they don’t like to see it… They gave him the permission to do this.” (27:57)

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Economic Reality: Affordability and Job Loss

33:13–43:38

Guest: Gene Sperling (senior economic advisor to Obama, Clinton, Biden)

Main Points

• Affordability Denial:
  Wallace plays repeated Trump soundbites dismissing the spiraling cost of living as a “Democrat scam.” (33:13–33:43)
• Public Not Fooled:
  Wallace: “He’s trying everything he knows… to try to get the American people to believe that… things aren’t as bad as we know.”
• Tariffs and Policy:
  Sperling blames Trump’s trade policies for both inflation and job losses; the imposition of tariffs directly increased the cost of goods for families.

  “It created economic uncertainty… On the core issue families cared about, which was the affordability of everyday prices, he explicitly put a tariff or tax on those.” (36:12)

• Layoffs:
  US layoffs in 2025 hit the highest rate since the pandemic—over 1.17 million jobs lost (38:34), exacerbating economic insecurity.
• People Feel It Directly:
  Sperling emphasizes:

  “Every family is the greatest expert in the world on how they are doing… they know how they are feeling.” (37:42)

Voter Response

• Polls show Trump’s economic approval at a low 36-42%, with voters increasingly skeptical of his ability to deliver on economic promises, especially affordability.

Panel: Language and Political Peril

• Rick Stengel: “He’s telling voters, ‘I know the circumstances of your life better than you do.’… They realize they’re not [doing better] and that he’s lying to them.” (42:08)
• Basil Smichel: Cost of living and security are top voting issues; people vote with their wallets, and migration patterns (CA to TX for affordable housing) are driven by these realities.

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Ending Infant Hep B Vaccinations: Public Health Backslide

43:54–45:03

• New CDC advisory panel—stacked with RFK Jr loyalists and anti-vaxxers—votes to end recommendation for universal infant Hepatitis B vaccination.
• Reversal would undo 30+ years of standard practice, likely increasing liver disease cases.

  “This makes America sicker.” — Senator Bill Cassidy (44:45)

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

Presidential Immunity & Autocracy

• “The relationship between the President and the people he serves has shifted irrecoverably… The President is now a king above the law.”
  — Nicolle Wallace (01:31)

On Military Policy and American Values

• “The problem is you don’t get to pursue the policy independent of the rule of law… that’s what differentiates America from autocracies.”
  — Sue Gordon (05:35–06:43)

On Family Separation’s Return

• “This is why no president has tried this before, because it is cruel, and we don’t have the stomach for it as a nation.”
  — Andrea Flores (27:34)

On Economic Reality

• “Every family is the greatest expert in the world on how they are doing. They know how they are feeling… He can say hoax all he wants, but people are speaking their own pocketbook and they’re not happy and they’re laying the blame on his doorstep.”
  — Gene Sperling (37:42)

On Trump’s Political Tactics

• “He’s telling voters, ‘I know the circumstances of your life better than you do.’… They realize that they’re not [doing great] and that he’s lying to them.”
  — Rick Stengel (42:08)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Presidential immunity and autocracy rhetoric: 01:31–04:13
• Military rationale, legality, and rule of law: 04:13–16:24 (Sue Gordon interview highlights)
• Institutional decay and Trump’s detachment: 16:24–21:02
• Family separation and its consequences: 23:20–32:37 (Andrea Flores/Basil Smichel/Rick Stengel panel)
• Cost of living, tariffs, and layoffs: 33:13–43:38 (Gene Sperling segment)
• CDC vaccine recommendation reversal: 43:54–45:03

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Tone, Language, and Outlook

The episode maintains an urgent, often somber tone as Wallace and her guests discuss ways in which American norms and values are at stake. The language is direct and analytical, with special attention to legal, moral, and practical consequences of recent policies. The panel threads personal outrage with institutional critique, often appealing to democratic values and the American idea.

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For more insights and continued coverage, subscribe to “Deadline: White House” and join Nicolle Wallace for daily analysis.

Transcript

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[Congressman]

Let's remember here, there hasn't been a congressional authorization for strikes into Venezuela, right? There are those of us like me in the Congress who've said, okay, if you think it's important that we go risk American lives, we put Americans in harm's way here. You come to Congress, you have a debate in front of the American people. You ask for the authority for that. This administration's done none of that. And so I think there's a lot of illegal uncertainty here and that's a dangerous place to be. Let's get certainty. Let's have this debate out in the open. But what I've seen from Secretary Hegseth and whether it's his misuse of signal and classified information, his response, and his varying answers to what kind of orders he gave around these strikes, it's just reckless stuff. He is not up to this job.

[Nicole Wallace]

Hi again, everyone. It's now five o'clock in New York. It does not take an advanced degree in pattern recognition to see those through lines, the thread connecting each and every one of those scandals mentioned by the congressman there, each and every cascading controversy in this, the second presidential Trump term, an administration overflowing with them, that is Donald Trump and those who work for him believe they can do whatever they want whenever they want, regardless of the law, regardless of the president, regardless of the damage it does to the institutions, regardless of the plummeting support from the American people. The United States Supreme Court in its decision granting presidential immunity, gave Trump reason to believe maybe he can do whatever he wants. As Justice Sonia Sotomayor said in her dissent in that case, quote, when he uses his official powers in any way, under the majority's reasoning, he now will be insulated from criminal prosecution. Orders the Navy's Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival. Immune organizes a military coup to hold onto power. Immune takes a bribe in exchange for A pardon. Immune, immune, immune. The relationship between the president and the people he serves has shifted irrecoverably in every use of official power. The president is now a king above the law, end quote. Today, an ominous and undeniable echo of those specific concerns from a judge who originally posed that question about SEAL Team 6, Judge Florence Pan. This morning. She dissented in a case Trump won, granting Donald Trump the power to summarily fire people without cause who work at independent agencies like the National Labor Relations Board or the Merit Systems Production Board. Judge Pan, in her dissent, wrote this, quote, my colleague's substantial acceptance of the government's maximalist theory of executive power power brings us closer to autocracy, harms our nation and violates the separation of powers. Which brings us back to our top story every day this week, the very much ongoing, seemingly extrajudicial military action in the Caribbean. Deadly strikes conducted with impunity. From the beginning, Donald Trump and his Secretary of defense, Pete Hegseth, have turned their noses up at anyone, Republican or Democrat, who has dared to question their legal rationale. And as our next guest understands better than just about anyone, believing you can do whatever you want because the Supreme Court granted you immunity is not the same thing at all as doing what is best for the country you lead. That is where we start the hour with our friend, former Principal Deputy Director of National Intelligence Sue Gordon. It is so nice to see you friend.

[Sue Gordon]

Hey, how you doing, Nicole? I wish you and I would get together over different.

Circumstance. I think.

Man, I think it hurts us both when the nation we love is.

Under siege.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, it has been excruciating to cover the question of the week from Democrats and Republicans, which is did America commit a war crime in its restrike of this alleged drug trafficking boat? And I've never been in the military, but I imagine if you serve or you love someone who serves or you know, or a veteran, it is the worst thing you could be accused of. And so I wonder how you see this story this week.

[Sue Gordon]

So as is my want, I'm going to bounce up for a second and I don't think anyone should be confused about discussing the policy versus discussing the way the policy is implemented. There's no doubt that narcotics and fentanyl is a problem in America, basically. Essentially, we lose a plane full of people every day to this that this administration wants to take that on. I don't think anyone.

Can counter that. And it's the prerogative of the elected official to pursue the policies. The problem is you don't get to pursue the policy independent of the rule of law, independent of the processes that we have that keep us from doing things that escalate government privilege, that permit acts that are so outside the bounds of what we would normally do, that just because it's your policy that you can do it. And then add to that the fact that your policy is intellectually inconsistent internally when you pardon a known convicted drug dealer. So what I think people are talking about and why it's totally legitimate to talk about it and ask about this and to be upset about it is that it isn't about whether it is legitimate to go after drug dealers or traffickers in drugs. It is. This is not the way.

That any part of our system would have allowed it to do. And to just say, well, we want to take it on this way does not disabuse you of the responsibility to do it properly. And remember, this is what differentiates America from autocracies. Yes, democracy is. And representative republics are slow and problematic because you get dissent and because you have to get congressional approval to declare war. But that is, in fact what makes America or has made America different from those countries that just do the things they want. Because you have a personality that wants in a certain way. Right. If you want something bad enough, you'll typically get it that way. And so I just think the first thing I want to make clear is this is not a political difference when we say that the way it's being conducted is antithetical to our values, our laws and the way we approach things.

[Nicole Wallace]

I think that.

[Sue Gordon]

But other than that, I'm perfectly fine with it.

[Nicole Wallace]

But let me just press you then on the first part of it, because I think that policymakers, if they have a goal of eradicating illegal drugs. You're treating the American people like they're idiots if you don't actually pursue the illegal drug that kills the most Americans. The illegal drug that kills the most Americans is fentanyl. And that illegal drug that kills the most Americans comes from China and Mexico. So, again, what are we doing in the Caribbean?

[Sue Gordon]

That's right.

Going against drug use. Not a problem. Doing it this way. It doesn't make any sense, and I think it's totally.

[Nicole Wallace]

But do you believe this is about drugs or do you believe this is about Venezuela? I mean, what. So if this was another country doing it, what would. What would your assessment be?

[Sue Gordon]

Yeah, we would assess what the real purpose of is. That has little to do with that. Using. Using an issue of convenience to pursue the issue in the manner you want to. So I don't disagree with you, Nicole, but having not I'm not sitting in the room to know all those conversations. I will say that in the first Trump administration, war on drugs was important to them, but.

That is another issue, that these are not the things that are going to achieve the outcome that you purport. They are not.

You also have an administration that seems to be wholly uninterested in the biggest problem and that our population are the consumers of these drugs, and yet we cut mental health programs and health programs and health disparity programs at the same time. We're saying we want to do it. So it's absolutely true that these are not the things that you do, even if you said that. And the real intention seems to be entirely different, which I'm not even sure is Venezuela, but might be Venezuela's resources, because that seems more consistent with what Ukraine is about and what the Middle east is about. So I think you're right. But I also think it's legitimate. And I'm glad the Congress, at least before we heard some people's response, are saying.

Maybe when we just go along from a policy perspective, we have not carried out our responsibility to the Constitution and the American people to make sure this is legitimate. Nicole, you and I have both lived through.

Times where the government has.

Pressed beyond.

What is both legal and in our national values. We've seen post 911 DE escalation of privilege and what happens when you do those sorts of things. Before that we saw whether it's Iran Contra or whether it's in Guatemala. We've seen times when.

Authorities exceed what the.

Values and the statute would allow. And it is typically the Congress that steps in and puts a break on that. So I hope this is the time that the people who have the best opportunity.

To restore sanity to this conversation do so, although I'm horrified that we saw different reactions to that video split along party lines. But I'm hoping this matters. And for the American people, that second strike, as we hear it is revealed in the video, should be a line that no American, no matter what their political leaning, wants to cross. That just isn't who we are.

[Nicole Wallace]

Let me just press you on that because.

[Sue Gordon]

Okay, sure.

[Nicole Wallace]

I love this because I've been covering it all week. I've been waiting to talk to you about it. But I'm glad I have a better understanding of it. I mean, what I understand now that I didn't appreciate when I first read this Washington Post story, which is the first public burst. But of course, it comes after six members of Congress who served in the military or in the intelligence community have put out this video telling the men and women of the military do not follow in a legal order while they're being attacked and called seditious for doing that. The Post is at some phase of reporting this story. I asked them if they knew about this story before they made the video. The four of them I've interviewed have said they did not, but they emerged publicly to us, the American people. At the same time.

Both the reaction from Donald Trump to a video simply telling men and women of the military not to follow in a legal order and then the reaction to what people saw in the videotape seems so. I don't like to use the word black and white because I know it never is, but seems so specifically identical to what is in the manual. So the Law of War manual has as an example of where the line is legally, ethically and morally what you do with shipwrecked people who are shipwrecked because of a military attack on their vessel. Have you heard anything from anyone who had eyes on the tape of the first strike and the Restrike that makes that example in the manual of the laws of war different from what they did?

[Sue Gordon]

No, I have not heard anything from anyone that I know that suggests it's different. I do think what is interesting is when you wonder why the President didn't go to the Congress that he controls.

To get the declaration of war that he is using as a basis.

War has constraints and a shape and boundaries that this falls into that this would be counter to. So in fact, when you don't follow the process, and again, I'm a revolutionary on this stuff, but when you don't follow the process, what you tend to get is what we're seeing right now. So to me, it makes me wonder if the reason why he hasn't gone to get the declaration, because if he had, this would be so clearly outside the bounds of even the laws of our armed conflict as we know it.

[Nicole Wallace]

Oh, wow.

[Sue Gordon]

And that seems to be one of the strategies that he has in order to be able to affect.

What he wants to do.

[Nicole Wallace]

Are you suggesting that there are legal rationale which is classified? I've talked to senators who've seen it, but it's obviously classified is some sort of designation terrorism designation or something that would render. I mean, what.

[Sue Gordon]

Yeah, so I haven't seen the rationale and I only went to a take your mother to a law school one hour torts class. So no one should believe me. On the law. But I will say that even armed conflict has constraints, right, in terms of who you inform, the conditions in which you do it. And this seems to be so. If you want to be able to do what you want without the.

Inconvenience of constraint.

One of the ways you do that is to never get anything defined as something that we have already defined. When you think about what our adversaries do, when we talk about gray zone, what gray zone conflict really is, is moving into a space that hasn't been governed by statute or policy. So you can act in a way that hasn't been constrained. And so I think this is exactly the legal question and the legislative question that we should be asking is.

Is he now somehow absolved of following the rules of war because we never actually declared war? And just because he said it does not make.

That being so. In other words, did he create a gray zone that he's now operating in?

[Nicole Wallace]

I want to ask you a question on a different topic.

You worked for Donald Trump. How in just what you see on television.

What do you make of this second term? I mean, I've covered him now for 10 years. I've never covered him making so many references to what other people told him. I've never covered him as someone who doesn't seem to have access to firsthand information, whether it's the pardon of a country that was the largest sort of proliferator of drugs at a time when he knows his, or should know his Department of Defense is justifying these strikes in the Caribbean as part of counter drug interdict. I mean, he seems so detached from everything that his government is doing in a way that I didn't approve of or like anything he did in the first term. But he didn't seem as removed from all of it. How do you, how do you assess his public statements in the second term?

[Sue Gordon]

I, so, so again, I, I try really hard not to go inside someone's head or go into a room that I wasn't in. I think there are two things that are relevant. Number one is.

President Trump has always used language as a way to create some sort of space where it's not provable what he has done. I think you can go back to Maggie Haberman's book on confidence man. You can see this is something that he does from a language perspective. So I don't know that that alone.

Is different from a strategy he uses in order to be able to distance himself from some actions.

But the other thing that I think is different now is just, and you And I have talked about this and it's one of the biggest concerns I have is the diminution of the professional cadre in the institutions, whether that is from leadership that doesn't have the experience.

To be responsible for the bigness of these jobs. And I think the average bear just doesn't recognize the difference in responsibility of holding the government's interest from holding private sector interest. So when the leaders and the institutions.

Have been diminished and they're under siege.

By a retributive administration, you don't even have the people coming forward to make sure that the boss knows what's going on. So I think those two things could easily combine to create this situation where he truly is sometimes surprised and or that because the system isn't supporting his actions in the same way we would expect them to, that his need to create that separation is even more than it's been before. But again, that's just looking at.

What I think the contributions, what I think the contributions are to great leadership.

And right now we have a disconnect not just because of the way the person interprets the office, but but that the institutions that have always been part and parcel of the way we affect things have been diminished.

[Nicole Wallace]

I know what you're saying.

I think he is unaware of how much he benefited from having honorable people like Jim Mattis run the Pentagon. He was better off politically and professionally totally having Jim Mattis run the Pentagon than Hegsev. But he doesn't think so because he thinks having a yes man at the Pentagon is better. He was better off having you at DNI than he is having Tulsi Gabbard. But he doesn't think so because he actually was better professionally and politically having patriotic, great, accomplished, intelligent people around him who revered the institutions than he is now. Right.

[Sue Gordon]

And Elon Musk isn't good in giving the charge of his company because I'm not a professional CEO. But I will say, and you and I have agreed on this, President Trump with this agenda, with his first administration would be in a better place now than he is.

[Nicole Wallace]

So interesting. I'm so happy to talk to you. I'm so happy to see you. We're going to need you. Sue Gordon, thank you for being here today, for starting us off. When we come back, the return of one of the most inhumane and barbaric policies of the first Trump administration. How children are being separated from their families amid Donald Trump's mass deportation scheme. There's no reporting on that. And the detention of a six year old in ICE custody. That's next. Also ahead for us, Donald Trump may call it a hoax and a scam, but for tens of millions of Americans, the cost of living, the rising cost of everything, is very real. Voters are increasingly blaming Donald Trump for all of it. How Trump is failing on the biggest campaign promise he made later in the hour. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

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[Nicole Wallace]

Chilling New details are emerging in the case of a six year old little boy whose father is desperately seeking answers from the Trump administration about where his son is. ICE is refusing to tell him where they took his son after the two were separated by Donald Trump's ICE when they were arrested last week. The New York Times is reporting that government records show that the father was taken from his son because he did not comply with an order to leave the country. His attorney told the Times that his client had refused to board an ICE flight to China in September because he was fearful of facing government retribution for fleeing the country in the first place. Government records show that ICE tried again in October to get Mr. Zhang to board a plane to China, but he refused. Andrea Flores, a former White House immigration official in the Obama and Biden administrations, said that the authorities were using atypical methods to coerce Mr. Zhang into complying with his deportation. Quote, the punishment for this father not getting on a plane is using his child, which is completely inhumane. Ms. Flores said the tactics being used are torturous. Those torturous tactics are not an outlier or an aberration. ProPublica is reporting that they mark a return to one of the most shameful policies in America's history, family separation. ProPublica writes this today. Quote, today family separations are back, only now they're happening all across the country. Since the start of this year, some 600 immigrant children have been placed in government shelters by ICE, according to government data. That figure, which has not been previously reported, is already higher than the tally for the previous four years combined, and it is the highest number since record keeping began a decade ago. Joining me at the table, former DHS official and White House advisor, founder of America's Promise and senior fellow at Forward us Andrea Flores is here. Also joining us, democratic strategies strategist and Columbia University professor Ms. Now political analyst Basil Smichel is here. Plus former under Secretary of State for public diplomacy and public affairs during the Obama administration. MSNBCnow political analyst Rick Stengel is here. Andrea, take us inside this case.

[Andrea Flores]

It's a devastating case and it's just one that we're happening to hear about. I'm concerned that this is a tactic, that there have been rumors of that for parents or asylum seekers, especially who are not complying with their removal orders because they are truly fearing what they will happen when they return, that they are being punished by their children, being taken into custody by health and human services and put in a shelter as though they have no parent, that they're unaccompanied. So this was the same.

[Nicole Wallace]

This is an American born child.

[Andrea Flores]

This is, I believe the child came with his father. And so this child, they want to do a deportation back as a family unit, they would say. But this is exactly why the president's attacks on the asylum system are so concerning, because this father is clearly fleeing some persecution in which he is likely deserves full dues process about whether it's a convention against torture, if there's a complementary protection. And instead the singular goal of this administration is not only to really effectively end asylum, but it is above all to force this child to be transferred to multiple custodial environments, traumatizing him in multiple detention centers. All for this one removal to China. What is the national purpose? Like, who are we, if that is what our government is spending so many resources on, that costs money to keep that child away from his father. And what was so tragic in the first administration was they did this before and they lost track of these families. So those 600 families, I don't know who's keeping track of the fact that that father is still in the country. This child is not orphaned. And yet, you know, all of this is happening so quickly. And this is one story, and I'm so scared of the stories behind this one.

[Nicole Wallace]

Where is the child?

[Andrea Flores]

The child is in a Office of Refugee and Resettlement shelter, which is where unaccompanied children go, which is the same thing we saw when they were separating children at the border in 2017 and 2018. So to punish a family for coming to the border, they would enroll the child into an unaccompanied children's shelter and then imprison the parent. So they're using, once again, these extremely coercive methods, all for one deportation.

[Nicole Wallace]

Right?

[Andrea Flores]

This is why no president has tried this before, because it is cruel, and we don't have the stomach for it as a nation. It isn't who we are. And what I want to hear about is how people are going to, you know, start defending things like the asylum system again, because we are a country that should be protecting this father fleeing political, you know, persecution in China. That's who we used to be. And I'd like to see us get back there.

[Basil Smichel]

Basil, you know, you made a point about the erosion or the removal of the asylum system. And you ask, what country are we? And that's the core question here, because none of what we are experiencing is who we were supposed to be. But the reality is that a lot of people voted for this, even if they don't like to see it. A lot of people voted for Trump and gave him the permission to do this. And that's what's so galling about it, because for all the people that said you've got to be careful when you make decisions, when someone gets up and tells you who they are and not believe them, because you feel that somehow you are the exception to the rule. Not that any of these families have done that, but some did. And my concern has always been, and I talk about this all the time, folks have voted for their adjacency, but what ends up happening is the net that gets cast does not discriminate. They're not going to discriminate against Your story or your story or my story. What they're going to do is look at you and make a blanket decision about who you are and whether they want you in this country. And that is that for those that, you know, even if I may not legally get swept up in that, the fact that I wake up every day thinking it could be me or people that look like me is what is so terrifying. But that's something that we have to deal with.

[Nicole Wallace]

What is the glitch in my brain that the first thing I wanted to say when you said people voted for this is no, they didn't. I still struggle with whether this is what people wanted because child separation was so repugnant that Donald Trump reversed the policy. I mean, what is it? Do you really think that people pulled the lever on separating, that they're happy that there's anyone's six year old child?

[Basil Smichel]

What I think a lot of people are happy about is that the country that Donald Trump is doing what he can to make the country look a certain way and feel a certain way that is comfortable for them and they don't necessarily take the steps to think about, think that through to the end. Right now, maybe do you even need.

[Nicole Wallace]

To think to feel horrified and traumatized by a six year old boy sitting in some shelter without his dad?

[Basil Smichel]

And there are some that will turn around and say, well, they should have followed the rules.

[Nicole Wallace]

It's not clear that asylum seekers didn't. He fled persecution he was in.

[Basil Smichel]

They're speaking to the choir. I get that. But my point is that Donald Trump had been talking about some really scary stuff for a long time. And there are a lot of folks that said, you know what, I came in the right way, I'm doing the right thing, I'm seeking the right opportunity to be here, not realizing that the person that they elected could take it away as quickly.

As you could think about it. And that's the concern.

[Rick Stengel]

And I think the scary stuff is deliberate. I mean, we talked in the first term about cruelty is the point. Cruelty is the show. They want to make a show of these kinds of horrible humanitarian disasters to get people to self deport, to use their phrase, to make people feel like he's actually executing the thing that he said he was going to do. The whole thing is a show. I mean, the fact that they have quotas for the number of people they want to deport. It's also he can say, we met that quota, we're doing more than Biden did, although he's still of course doing less than Obama did.

[Nicole Wallace]

What do you think the point of the promotional marketing videos is when this is at plunging approval ratings, when Donald Trump is underwater on every issue, including immigration, why do they keep sort of tapping this adrenal gland with maga?

[Rick Stengel]

Well, because they think that it's a seesaw and that he'll come back and that, you know, one of the most primal things that he understands as a politician is to say, I made a promise and I'm acting on that promise. And what the cruelty does is like I'm acting on it, and I'm making it even worse for those people than you could ever imagine.

[Basil Smichel]

I mean, look, I'm sorry. I got to say, he said that there are Somalis who are taking billions from us and have contributed nothing to this country.

[Rick Stengel]

So part of it, there's 67,000 Somali people in the whole country. That's less than in this block.

[Basil Smichel]

And when you. So the whole point of it is, yes, it's the show, but it's this show of force, it's the show of anger, and it's the show that if you don't do what I say, whatever that is, and it can change every day, then you're going to be gone. But this is. It's, it's not. It's. It's partly about the fear because the fear is the currency, but it's also signaling to a lot of people in this country that he is willing to do whatever it takes to make it look and feel the way they want it to.

[Nicole Wallace]

It's unbelievable. Thank you for your comments in the New York Times, and thank you for being here to talk about it. Yeah, we'll stay on top of the story. Thank you for being here. Basil and Rick stick around. When we come back, they are flashing red warning signs that any normal policy politician would pay. Mine, too. But of course, Donald Trump does not. Even after his own voters have begun to blame him in very large numbers for the high cost of everything, things like groceries and things they buy every day for their families. Trump continues to essentially mock their concerns. We'll have that conversation next.

[Sue Gordon]

The word affordability is a Democrat scam.

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[Sue Gordon]

Affordability is a hoax. It's a con job. I think affordability is the greatest conjunction. That's the new word, affordability. We're also making incredible strides to make America affordable again. That's a new word that they're using, affordability. But they came up with a new word, affordability. And they look at the. We are all about affordability.

[Nicole Wallace]

He's like that sad Old high school football coach who, like, had one great season running all the old plays. Russia hoax. Russia hoax. Affordability hoax. He's trying everything he knows how to do, every tactic in the books to try to get the American people to believe that what we're living in our lives, that people's financial situation, which is something that most Americans are confronted with every second of every day, everything costs something. He's trying to make people feel like it isn't as bad as we know it is from pretending, as you just heard, that it's some new word, a new concept, affordability, rather than something most families contend with every single day, with every big decision they make, as well as his signature campaign promise to his own voters when he stood in front of melting groceries in Bedminster, he's abandoned it. And he's now calling the entire concept of affordability and being able to pay one's bills a, quote, Democratic scam. Not surprisingly, voters, including those who voted for him, are mad and increasingly skeptical of his ability to do anything in terms of steering this country. New polling analysis from the New York Times finds that Donald Trump's approval rating is at 42%, a number driven down in that poll by that new word. To Trump, at least, affordability said with a weird emphasis on the last syllable. For some reason, just 36% of Americans approve of Donald Trump's handling of the economy. I want to bring in former senior adviser to President Biden, former national economic adviser to Presidents Obama and Clinton, Gene Sperling. Basil and Rick are still here. Gene, first, just level set for me, what is happening in the economy.

[Gene Sperling]

Well, what you've really seen is that one of the big misconceptions you hear from the President and his top advisors was that they inherited very high inflation and somehow this dangerous path that it needed, that they needed time to improve. You know, the fact is, is that inflation, what had gone up way too high with the COVID in 2022, but inflation rates were actually coming down as the President came in. The inflation was.

You know, we just had a number out today, the PCE number that was actually below 3% in its final quarter. And what you saw was that every expert in the country was projecting that if Donald Trump simply did nothing, that inflation would come down closer to 2%. So I've used the phrase self inflicted wound here. What you saw was that when they came in with this erratic trade policy, it did two negative things. It created economic uncertainty, which we are now seeing in terms of slower job growth and even potentially negative job growth. But at the same time, on the core issue families cared about, which was the affordability of everyday prices, he explicitly put a tariff or tax on those, on those issues and drove up the prices. It is like leaning into a left hook. And so what's happening now is that people are, you know, they're going to the grocery store and they're not only seeing that things are not getting better, they're seeing that things are getting worse, that many products they're paying are higher. And they're very well informed that this is because of the President's trade policy. It's stunning the degree of Americans who know.

What a tariff is that President Trump is putting the tariffs on and that that's why they're paying more prices. And he can call it hoax all he wants, but one lesson I've always tell anybody is every family is the greatest expert in the world on how they are doing. They know how they are feeling. And you did the polls. I'll just mention the Michigan consumer sentiment numbers. They asked people, what do you think about current economic conditions? And it's the worst it's been in its 48 years. Now, that can't seem right. Worse than 9 11? Worse than the great financial cris crisis. Worse than the pandemic. Yes, that's what the numbers are showing. So he can say hoax all he wants, but people are speaking their own pocketbook and they're not happy and they're laying the blame on his doorstep.

[Nicole Wallace]

Jean, let me ask you about layoffs as well. The Wall Street Journal reports this. This year's Layoff tally nears 1.2 million, highest since the pandemic. In January through November, firms have laid out plans to cut 1.17 million posts. That's what's the highest year to date level since 2020. I mean, in 2020, it was so stark. It was the pandemic. And there were, you know, there were, there were people lined up at Food. I mean, the job losses were so abrupt with the advent of the, of the pandemic. But that's a startling reference point, I think, for joblessness in America.

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[Gene Sperling]

Well, it is, and this is the problem with the policy is that it's both. It hasn't created what you would think of as a classic stagflation period where high, you know, we're in recession and inflation is soaring. But it's a stagflationary direction. You're driving prices up. At the same time through your policies you're creating so much uncertainty and cost pressure that you're hurting jobs. And a lot of economists I have talked to, neutral economists will say that companies don't know what to do. They don't want to raise prices because they know how unhappy that will make their consumers. They don't want to cut their profits so their stock market goes down. And so what you're seeing I think is that a lot of them are looking every which way to lay off or not hire or cut back. So this is a trifecta. I think the policies had is hurting on growth, it's hurting on jobs and it's clearly hurting on prices.

[Nicole Wallace]

Jean Sperling, thank you so much for making sense of some of these numbers for us. We have to sneak In a quick break. We'll be right back.

So I guess, Rick, the only update to it's the economy stupid is it's always the economy stupid.

[Rick Stengel]

It's always the economy. Economy is kind of a bad word. Affordability is a better word. But the dangerous place for a politician, and Donald Trump is in it now, is when he's telling voters, I know the circumstances of your life better than you do. I'm telling you that you're, you're doing great. They realize that, that they're not and that he's lying to them. He can say things about immigration statistics or Gaza or whatever, and they don't. Well, I don't really know. But when he says things are cheaper now, they know he's lying to them.

[Nicole Wallace]

And the thing is, his personal story he views as a political asset, the gold toilet, the plane from Qatar, the grift on crypto, it all hurts him even more in this area.

[Basil Smichel]

It does. And to Gene's point earlier, people are, people notice it and they're voting with their, with their, with their wallet in their pocketbook. So affordability is top of mind for voters and candidates. So things like universal childcare, that's why they're so popular, because it's like all of these costs are going up no matter what we do. Incredible statistic that the majority of people that migrate out of California move to Texas mostly because of housing. And so you would wonder why is Texas doing all this redistricting? Because there are probably so many Democrats.

[Nicole Wallace]

Moving to Texas, but you don't get health care anymore.

[Basil Smichel]

Yeah, that's it. And so here's the issue, right? Like people are trying to move and trying to do things based on their pocket, but if you can't, you have to live someplace where you're being affected by climate change, then what do you do? Right? So you to become housing insecure, food insecure. And all of these things are going to impact how you vote. And he knows that.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah. Basil, Rick, we never have enough time to talk to you, but thank you for being at the table today. When we come back, another potentially dangerous step in RFK jr's assault on vaccines in America with a CDC Pan panel did today. That's next.

Today, what feels like a defining moment for America's public health. CDC advisory panel stacked with anti vax activists and loyalists to RFK Jr voted to end their recommendation that all babies get vaccinated against hepatitis B when they're born. The decision follows contentious debates within the committee and three failed attempts at a vote. It will have to be approved by the acting CDC director. But if he accepts it, it will undo what has been the standard practice in our country for more than 30 years and a practice that NPR reports has been credited with dramatically lowering liver disease caused by the Hep B virus. Doctors now fear that more infants will accidentally contract Hep B, leading to incurable liver disease. One of those concerned liver doctors, Louisiana Senator Bill Cassidy, who cast the deciding vote to confirm RFK Jr. He tweeted out after the vote, quote, this makes America sicker. We'll stay on top of that. Who could have seen that coming, right? Maybe Cassidy could have. Oh well, another break. We'll be right back.

We're sort of bursting to tell you about the latest episode of the Best People podcast. My dear friend and colleague Rachel Maddow joins me for an in depth conversation about everything, everything we've been talking about all week long, everything happening in the world right now. But importantly her unbelievable new podcast, Burn Order, which is really, really, really must listen. My conversation with Rachel and the Best People will be available for our subscribers tonight and wherever you get your podcast starting Monday. Burn Order with Rachel is out right now. Listen to it wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for letting us into your homes for another week of shows. We are so grateful.

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