“Endowed by the founders”

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: Deadline: White House
Episode: “Endowed by the founders”
Host: Nicolle Wallace, MSNBC
Date: September 18, 2025

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Overview

This episode examines the chilling and rapid decline of free speech in America following a series of unprecedented government interventions against media and comedians critical of President Donald Trump. Nicolle Wallace and guests dissect the forced removal of Jimmy Kimmel from ABC after controversial comments, explore the broader context of censorship and attacks on the press, and discuss the mounting hypocrisy of the current administration regarding the First Amendment. The episode features in-depth analysis and emotional reactions from major media voices and reporters, highlighting how these actions not only threaten the media landscape but the fabric of American democracy itself.

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Major Discussion Points & Insights

1. The State of the First Amendment under the Trump Administration

[00:51 – 04:52]

• Nicolle Wallace opens with a somber tone, noting a profound shift in the meaning of the First Amendment.

• The recent government-approved removal of Jimmy Kimmel from ABC, ostensibly for offensive remarks about Charlie Kirk, marks a new low for free speech protections.

• Trump and his administration have openly celebrated media crackdowns, betraying prior claims to defend free speech.

  “It is abundantly clear to everyone... that the First Amendment in the hands of this current administration isn’t what it used to be.”
  — Nicolle Wallace [00:51]

• Chair of the FCC, Brendan Carr, threatened punitive action against Disney/ABC over Kimmel’s comments, underscoring direct government involvement.

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2. The Sequence of Crackdowns on Media and Comedians

[05:07 – 13:43]

• Michael Grimbaum details a pattern of multi-pronged attacks on media: lawsuits against the New York Times, suits involving the Wall Street Journal, settlements with ABC/Colbert, and now pressure on late night comedy.

• Brendan Carr’s signaling on right-wing podcasts catalyzed pressure on Disney and local station owners to yank Kimmel.

• Oliver Darcy reveals the behind-the-scenes chaos at Disney; executives and Kimmel himself struggled with how to respond, but business interests and government pressure ultimately prevailed.

  “Donald Trump is abusing the power of government to go after critics. And that’s not something we’re used to in this country.”
  — Oliver Darcy [09:39]

• This attack strategy follows the script of Project 2025, with the administration systematically weaponizing regulatory and legal levers.

• Reports of chilling effects: protests in LA, subscription cancellations, industry-wide anxiety.

  “There is a chill ... Trump today said Jimmy Fallon and Seth Meyer are next. And you don’t think that’s going to land somewhere with people?”
  — Dominic Patton [12:08]

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3. Escalation and Erosion: Consequences and Metaphors

[13:43 – 20:05]

• Nicolle Wallace recaps a growing list of media casualties: large legal settlements, canceled shows, significant newsroom overhauls (e.g., Washington Post’s opinion section), new lawsuits.

• Trump’s intimidation of journalists extends internationally, threatening diplomatic consequences for unfavorable coverage.

  “He is seeking to chill journalism around the world as an extortion tactic for good diplomatic relations with their governments.”
  — Nicolle Wallace [15:08]

• Grimbaum highlights how Trump has moved from rhetoric to effective, unchecked use of obscure but powerful regulatory levers.

  “In this term, President Trump has been incredibly efficient… at finding these obscure levers of government to really enact immense pressure on his political enemies.”
  — Michael Grimbaum [15:19]

• Panel notes that the outrage is palpable among press and entertainment but recourse is limited given the administration’s unchecked power.

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4. Media’s Surrender and Response Options

[20:05 – 29:56]

• Stephen A. Smith and others draw comparisons to Hungary’s Viktor Orban and Putin’s Russia — warning of how quickly autocratic crackdowns can unravel democracy.
• Discussion of potential pushback: comedians finding new platforms (as Megyn Kelly and Tucker Carlson did), solidarity within the entertainment community, and the limits of corporate compliance.

  “Perhaps don’t fight them where they think the battle is. Create a new battlefield.”
  — Dominic Patton [21:44]

• President Obama’s statement is read: he explicitly calls out the administration for escalating cancel culture to dangerous new levels.
• Hope that “signs of life” (e.g., Jon Stewart’s return to The Daily Show, industry protests) could snowball into meaningful resistance.

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5. The Suddenness and Fragility of Democratic Norms

[26:34 – 32:25]

• The acceleration is noted (“it happens all at once”), with even right-wing media figures and some Trump supporters expressing unease.
• Trump’s pattern as a “trampling guy”: deals with the administration earn no lasting protection for anyone, not even close allies.

  “He’s suing Rupert Murdoch, who basically helped put him in office... You’re not gonna get him to be your buddy, for God’s sake.”
  — Stephen A. Smith [29:59]

• Potential for fissures inside the Trump coalition to gum up the crackdown.

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6. International Perspectives and Authoritarian Playbook

[36:13 – 38:52]

• Ann Applebaum draws explicit parallels to Putin’s early moves in Russia, especially targeting comedy as a form of resistance.

  “What’s happening here right now... looks a lot more like what Vladimir Putin did when he took power in Russia...” — Ann Applebaum [36:13]

• Wallace and guests agree that “free speech” is now selectively applied, with egregious right-wing rhetoric given a pass (see Brian Kilmeade’s “just kill them” comment on Fox).

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7. Media Coverage, Narrative Control, & the Informational Ecosystem

[42:44 – 44:55]

• Oliver Darcy laments major media reluctance to call out bad actors in clear language, resulting in a diluted public understanding of events.

  “I think one of the things I see from just mass media is a reluctance to call things as they are when they’re happening.”
  — Oliver Darcy [42:50]

• The right-wing media ecosystem is recognized as far more robust, influential, and unconstrained by facts than any left-wing equivalent.

  “There is no left wing equivalent of Fox News.”
  — Oliver Darcy [44:19]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The First Amendment in the hands of this current administration isn’t what it used to be... It is diminished today.”
  — Nicolle Wallace [00:51]
• “Donald Trump is abusing the power of government to go after critics. And that’s not something we’re used to in this country.”
  — Oliver Darcy [09:39]
• “This is how a four year old mourns a goldfish.”
  — Commentator/Analyst, about Trump’s response to Charlie Kirk’s death [03:56]
• “Mark Twain is rolling over in his grave, as is Dorothy Parker.”
  — Stephen A. Smith [12:08]
• “Our democracy is being eroded before our eyes. If this was a foreign country, we’d be a lot more clear eyed about what’s going on.”
  — Oliver Darcy [18:22]
• “What’s happening here right now... looks a lot more like what Vladimir Putin did when he took power in Russia.”
  — Ann Applebaum [36:13]
• “There was no Biden government censorship. I mean, this was an entirely fake narrative.”
  — Ann Applebaum [38:52]
• “I think liberals tend to hew to fact based media and that’s not sticky.”
  — Oliver Darcy [44:12]

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Key Timestamps

• 00:51: Nicolle Wallace frames the episode's central question—has America’s free speech tradition collapsed?
• 02:00: Trump’s inauguration pledge on ending “government censorship.”
• 04:32: Trump celebrates Jimmy Kimmel’s indefinite suspension.
• 05:07: Oliver Darcy on the government’s posture towards regulating broadcasters.
• 08:12: Behind the scenes at ABC as Kimmel’s fate is decided.
• 12:08: Stephen A. Smith on historic parallels—Smothers Brothers, Bill Maher—and current protests.
• 13:43: The list of recent media casualties under Trump.
• 15:19: Michael Grimbaum on Trump’s efficient deployment of obscure bureaucratic powers.
• 17:06: Wallace and guests on the press as the most vital democratic institution.
• 18:22: Oliver Darcy’s blunt assessment: “Our democracy is being eroded before our eyes.”
• 21:44: Dominic Patton suggests comedians and critics “create a new battlefield.”
• 27:37: Oliver Darcy: “It’s happening all at once.”
• 36:13: Ann Applebaum compares U.S. crackdown to Putin’s Russia and the targeting of satire.
• 38:52: Applebaum debunks the narrative of Biden-era government censorship as “entirely fake.”
• 42:50: Oliver Darcy on media’s reluctance to call out bad actors.
• 44:19: No equivalent to Fox News exists on the left.

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Episode Tone and Style

The episode is urgent, direct, and unapologetically critical—with a mix of analysis, informed outrage, and historical context. The language is impassioned and sometimes darkly witty, as panelists express shock, indignation, and resolve.

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Closing Thoughts

This episode serves as a stark warning: American free speech and press freedoms are under direct threat, not theoretically, but right now and in plain sight. The consensus among Nicolle Wallace and her guests is that government weaponization against critics—especially comedians and journalists—guarantees a climate of fear, shrinking platforms for dissent. The question is not when these changes may come, but what those committed to truth and free expression will do next in the face of accelerating autocracy.

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For more analysis on legal and political developments, subscribe to the Deadline Legal newsletter or tune in to future episodes of Deadline: White House.

Transcript

[Stephen A. Smith]

It's Stephen A. Smith here. You want sports. SiriusXM's got it all. Every game, every team, all season long. Debates, rants, hot takes and no filter whatsoever. Trust and believe. You don't want to miss what I have to say this week on the Stephen A. Smith show, only on SiriusXM.

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[Nicole (Deadline White House Host)]

Hi everyone. How are we doing? It's four o'clock in New York. Anyone? Anyone with the profound privilege of sitting in a chair like this one felt something shift over the last 16 hours? Because this afternoon it is abundantly clear to everyone, not just people who sit in chairs like this one, but every single American, that the First Amendment in the hands of this current administration isn't what it used to be. It does not protect an individual's right to speak freely. That right, endowed by the Founders, enshrined in the Constitution, fought for, bled for over the course of centuries, is markedly different. It is diminished today, leaving everyone, journalists and citizens alike, to wonder, where are we and what happens now? Just as importantly, right now there are ruptures of trust, some visible, some loud, some some particularly notable, between Donald Trump and some of his most ardent supporters who believed him when he said this in his inaugural address.

[Donald Trump]

After years and years of illegal and unconstitutional federal efforts to restrict free expression, I will also sign an executive order to immediately stop all government censorship and bring back free speech to America.

[Nicole (Deadline White House Host)]

Today, nine months after he said that Donald Trump and his administration are cheering the decision of Disney's ABC to pull Jimmy Kimmel live off the air indefinitely for comments the late night host made about the motivations of the man accused of murdering right wing activist Charlie Kirk. Before we play those comments that ended Jimmy Kimmel's run at abc, understand the context and the background. Hours before we learned that Jimmy Kimmel would be forcibly thrown off the air, Federal Communications Commission Chair Brendan Carr threatened to, quote, take action against Disney and ABC over Jimmy Kimmel's remarks. So here they are, words the FCC deemed so offensive that the government felt comfortable enough cracking down on a major broadcast company.

[Commentator/Analyst]

We hit some new lows over the weekend with the MAGA gang desperately trying to characterize this kid who murdered Charlie Kirk as anything other than than one of them and doing everything they can to score political points from it. In between the finger pointing, there was grieving. On Friday, the White House flew the flags at half staff, which got some criticism. But on a human level, you can see how hard the President is taking this.

[Stephen A. Smith]

My condolences on the loss of your friend Charlie Kirk.

[Donald Trump]

May I ask, sir, personally, how are.

[Stephen A. Smith]

You holding up over the last day and a half, sir?

[Donald Trump]

I think very good. And by the way, right there, you see all the trucks? They've just started construction of the new ballroom for the White House which is something they've been trying to get, as you know, for about 150 years. And it's going to be a beauty.

[Commentator/Analyst]

Yes, he's at the fourth stage of grief. Construction, demolition, construction. This is not how an adult grieves the murderer of someone he called a friend. This is how a four year old mourns a goldfish.

[Stephen A. Smith]

Okay.

[Nicole (Deadline White House Host)]

So those comments are apparently in this country right now, grounds enough to ban a TV show from the airwaves, quote, indefinitely. Donald Trump predictably celebrated ABC's decision rather gleefully last night and then again today. Watch.

[Donald Trump]

Jimmy Kimmel was fired because he had bad ratings more than anything else. And he said a horrible thing about a great gentleman known as Charlie Kirk. And Jimmy Kimmel is not a talented person. He had very bad ratings and they should have fired him a long time ago. So, you know, you can call that free speech or not. He was fired for lack of talent.

[Nicole (Deadline White House Host)]

Perhaps just as concerning is that this is not the end of anything but the beginning of the beginning of a broader publicized assault. Just listen to FCC Chairman Brendan Carr.

[Oliver Darcy]

If you have a broadcast TV license, that means that you have something that very few people have and you're excluding other people from having access to that valuable public resource. And it comes with an obligation to serve the public interest. We are in the midst of a massive shift in dynamics in the media ecosystem for lots of reasons, again including the permission structure that President Trump's election has provided. And I would simply say we're not done yet with seeing the consequences of that.

[Nicole (Deadline White House Host)]

We are not done yet. Day one of what appears to be a crackdown on the First Amendment and free speech in America is where we start today with some of the most experienced and wise voices on this topic, some of our favorite reporters and friends. Dominic Patton is here, executive [e-mail], also joining me at the TABLE Oliver Darcy. He's the author of the newsletter Status, which covers all things media brilliantly and fearlessly. Also joining us, media correspondent for the New York Times, Michael Grimbaum, who's had the job of covering your own institution this week. So I start with you. They're not even bookends. They're two things that happen in the middle of the week.

[Michael Grimbaum]

Yeah, my week began reporting on a lawsuit that President Trump filed against the New York Times and four of my colleagues, essentially accusing the paper of defaming his reputation as a successful businessman. In a series of articles, the New York Times has said the suit is meritless and that we plan to fight. Also in some ways felt inevitable. Since the very start of this term in office, the President has launched a multi pronged attack on media institutions, be it from broadcast networks to newspaper. Rupert Murdoch's Wall Street Journal just a couple of months ago over Jeffrey Epstein coverage. So three days later, really the media and political worlds were stunned by this decision by the Walt Disney Company to temporarily pull Jimmy Kimmel off the airwaves. And it's amazing to look at sort of the series of events that led to that, most prominently Brendan Carr, the FCC chair, appearing on a right wing podcast with Benny Johnson and you know, basically suggesting that he was going to take punitive action against ABC on account of these comments. I saw this bubbling up in kind of right wing.

[Nicole (Deadline White House Host)]

How'd you see it bubbling up?

[Michael Grimbaum]

Yeah, it came up init was on social media in sort of right wing political circles. My reporting shows that Johnson himself was also loudly boasting about the fact that Carr had made these comments on the interview. But I have to say, even as an experienced media reporter, I was surprised when a news alert came up on my phone. It was the Wall Street Journal that first broke the news that ABC was actually cited to pull that night's episode.

[Nicole (Deadline White House Host)]

I mean, Oliver, you have an incredible TikTok of how this went down at abc. Will you take us through that?

[Oliver Darcy]

Yeah. I mean, it starts with Brendan Carr going on Benny Johnson's podcast. And that sets off a cascade of events inside ABC News or ABC and Disney. There were emergency meetings convened. Bob Iger, the head of Disney, was part of these meetings. Dana Walden, the head of Disney Entertainment, she was part of these meetings. And my understanding is Jimmy Kimmel was a part of some of these meetings. And they were trying to figure out how to respond. Kimmel wanted to go on air last night. He wanted to go on air and address this. He actually penned a script. Disney wasn't comfortable with the script he penned. And ultimately Bob Iger, Dana Walden and a few others at Disney decided that for now it was best to bench him because they were facing a rebellion from some of these local stations who Carr had also basically called on to reject Kimmel. And Nexstar had said, and Nexstar has this huge $6.2 billion deal. Before Carr, they had said they were going to preempt Kimmel indefinitely. Then the right wing station owner, Sinclair, said that they were not going to air him. And so Disney was under pressure and they decided, for now, while the temperature's hot, let's bench Kimmel.

[Nicole (Deadline White House Host)]

It's not the first action, though, taken by abc. It obviously comes after the settlement with ABC News. And it was visible. I was once on the View. Those women are fearless. And the story didn't come up. I mean, it's obviously being felt and acted upon at abc more broadly.

[Stephen A. Smith]

Yeah.

[Oliver Darcy]

I mean, we are seeing Donald Trump weaponize the federal government to punish critics, to silence critics. And it's leaving businesses in a very tough position because they have a lot of business that needs to be cleared by the federal government. Donald Trump can make their lives very painful. He can exact a lot of damage against these companies. And so if you're Bob Iger, you're looking at the fact that you have an NFL deal before the government, they could sue to stop that. If you're Nexstar, you have this $6.2 billion deal with Tegna. Donald Trump's FCC can stop that. And so when it comes to Kimmel, he is, in terms of business, much smaller than the other deals they have going before the government. But we shouldn't be, we should be very clear. Donald Trump is abusing the power of government to go after critics. And that's not something we're used to in this country. And it's also something that stands in direct contrast to what these people have claimed for the last several years. They claimed they were against cancel culture. They claimed they were pro free speech. And now they're being exposed as just plain hypocrites.

[Nicole (Deadline White House Host)]

Ascend as I've never ever uttered before. But let's look at what happened over on barstool today. Do we have that?

[Stephen A. Smith]

But this is now more just like, hey, like, let's get our revenge against the left, these, these liberal by being bigger. And if they just came out and said that is a revenge guy is somebody who's petty, I'd say, great, love it. Great, great. I'm with you. Like, that's pathetic. It's Weird. But they're not doing that. I'm getting the Jerry Callahans and the. And the Matt Walshes of the world and the Mama K's of the world telling me like, no, but what they did was we're telling is the true. What they're doing. It's like, man, you know, look, I like Trump sometimes. I don't like Trump sometimes. This is.

[Nicole (Deadline White House Host)]

Oh, come on. We had to bleep the best line this, Dominic, is. This is news. Because I think it's obvious what an anchor at MSNBC thinks about stifling a comedian right now. Ukraine, a country that embodies, you know, fighting for its independence and a democracy, literally fighting to survive, has as its leader a comedian. I mean, comedy is historically of epic importance to a country's sense of self, to who it sees itself as. Is it a strong enough and confident enough and mature enough country to let comedians make fun of its leaders? The answer in America right now is no.

[Stephen A. Smith]

I would say, for lack of a better expression, Nicole, Mark Twain is rolling over in his grave, as is Dorothy Parker. I think that we are in a very dark time here. And I think Oliver put it in the best terms possible. There was a lot of meetings, and Dana Walden had to make a call and tell Jimmy Kimmel this. Now, as we reported at Deadline, there is some hope that they can find a pathway back. Jimmy Kimmel is still hosting who Wants to Be a Millionaire? But it's going to be a hard road because we've seen the repercussions of this. There are protests happening outside the Disney offices in Burbank. There are protests happening on Hollywood Boulevard. Are they massive? No, but they're there. There are people canceling their Disney plus subscriptions. Are they massive? No, but they're there. The fact of the matter is, is there's always been a tendency in American life. We saw it with the Smothers brothers in the 60s. We saw with Bill Maher in 2002, who got canceled because he said that he could not accept calling the 911 terrorists. Cowards, though he called them terrorists, but not cowards. That, in fact, was how Jimmy Kimmel got his show in 2003 because of that irony of iron, unfortunately. But I do think what we're seeing here is there is a chill. And let's remember, Trump today said Jimmy Fallon and Seth Meyer are next. And you don't think that that's going to land somewhere with people. We saw this in the 80s. You remember Falwell used to talk about wanting to buy cbs. So he could fire Dan Rather. That is this is a conservative instinct that has been there. It comes up, goes down right now, though it's coming from the White House, and that gives it much more power.

[Nicole (Deadline White House Host)]

Michael, let me put up some of those other examples. I think you've reported on all of these. The $16 million 60 Minutes settlement, Stephen Colbert's program canceled. Jimmy Kimmel suspended indefinitely, the $15 million defamation settlement from ABC. At the post, Jeff Bezos has, to put it, generously overhauled the opinion section. He's repelled a lot of stunningly brilliant journalists from that institution. The Times in the Journal, as you mentioned, sued the Wall street, restricting the Associated Press's access to the pool, I believe, because they refused to rename the Gulf of Mexico. And then this is how he attacked an Australian reporter. I think this is, I think this is from today. Let me show you this.

[Donald Trump]

That is an appropriate president's club, that a president in office should be engaged in so much business activity. Well, I'm really not. My kids are running the business. I'm here. You know what the activity. Where are you from? I'm from the Australian Broadcasting Corporation. Four Corners program by the Australians. You're hurting Australia right now, in my opinion. You are hurting Australia very much right now. And they want to get along with me. You know, your leader is coming over to see me very soon. I'm going to tell them about you. You set a very bad tone.

[Nicole (Deadline White House Host)]

So this isn't just our problem. I mean, he is seeking to chill journalism around the world as an extortion tactic for good diplomatic relations with their governments.

[Michael Grimbaum]

Well, I zoom out and look at the way that in this term, President Trump has been incredibly efficient and you have to say, clever at finding these obscure levers of government to really enact immense pressure on his political enemies. And I count cutting federal research funds from private universities, going after private white shoe law firms by threatening their ability to work with the government. I mean, these were not tactics we saw in the first term. Trump, he railed against all these organizations, but what the difference is, he now has wheeled these levers of government against them. And everything we're seeing now with the media. Brendan Carr, the chair of the fcc, is often talking about broadcast licenses. Now, this is really sort of an obscure part of the bureaucracy in America. I mean, this is about broadcast networks need a federal license to operate their business because of the nature of public airwaves. But FCC chairs have never used that in a punitive way. In fact, his predecessor, Jessica Rosario Warsaw, was very clear that it was not the place of the FCC to police content, to police the political views of programming when it comes to these licenses. What we're seeing with Trump and his administration is a willingness to just shatter these norms, to be quite brazen, as it were, in going after their enemies. And I'm kind of waiting to see. I mean, there was outrage in Hollywood, there was outrage from Democratic lawmakers about what happened last night. But I am curious what the recourse will be. The Democrats don't have power in either house of Congress. They could haul in Brendan Carr for a hearing, but the truth is his power is really rather unchecked in this regard. So I'm sort of curious to see, you know, what are the challenges that emerge out of this?

[Nicole (Deadline White House Host)]

Well, I admire your curiosity. I think most people with the platform feel something different. I mean, they feel the fear of a dying democracy. I think if this isn't as closely associated, and the reason the press is in the First Amendment is because the founders found it not among the vital freedoms to have a democracy, but the most important one. And I think watching what happens next is all of our job. But I think understanding that it may be a clever deployment of tactics, but it's also all been written down and shared publicly in Project 2025. I mean, this was the plan, this was on paper. This is what he ran on. And the folks that are in the most, I guess, humiliated postures today are all the free speech warriors who thought there was something for them in the second Trump presidency.

[Oliver Darcy]

We also often think about what's happening next. Let's see how the story evolves. Let's think about what's happened already.

[Nicole (Deadline White House Host)]

Right. It's happened.

[Stephen A. Smith]

It's already happened.

[Oliver Darcy]

The comedians are being thrown off the air.

[Nicole (Deadline White House Host)]

Right.

[Oliver Darcy]

The tech overlords are bowing before Donald Trump.

[Nicole (Deadline White House Host)]

Right.

[Oliver Darcy]

You know, the news organizations, at the very least, there's an incredible chill going through every single one of them.

[Michael Grimbaum]

It's happening.

[Oliver Darcy]

Our democracy is being eroded before our eyes. If this was a foreign country, we'd be a lot more clear eyed about what's going on. I think, honestly, they're probably looking at America like that democracy is rapidly slipping away.

[Stephen A. Smith]

Yeah.

[Oliver Darcy]

And so I understand the temptation to see how the story evolves. Hopefully it doesn't get any darker, although I fear it will.

[Nicole (Deadline White House Host)]

Yeah.

[Oliver Darcy]

But where we are right now is a very, very dark place.

[Nicole (Deadline White House Host)]

Say more about that. Because I think there's this adaptive human trait to, you know, follow the facts, see where they lead. There's also a denial in that. I mean, they have led to this. Two of the three late night hosts.

[Oliver Darcy]

Are gone and we haven't even thought about Jon Stewart, who has his contract expiring in a few months. And, you know, when I was over at the Paramount press conference, asked them if they were going to renew him and there was no answer. And so I think it's very possible in a year that Jon Stewart, Stephen Colbert and Jimmy Kimmel, three of the big comedians who are critical who Neal Trump could be off of the air. And again, that's what Donald Trump wants. And he's getting exactly what he wants. He's getting the ability to eliminate criticism, to scrub it off of the air. And he's doing it through a variety of ways, whether it's lawsuits against the New York Times, lawsuits against the Wall Street Journal, threats of lawsuits, threats of bureaucratic action from the fcc, threatening law firms. He is getting what he wants, which is the ability to operate more freely without criticism and honestly to some extent in the shadows. Because when comedians stop pointing out what he's doing, when news organizations stop reporting on him the same way, he gets to operate a lot more freely.

[Nicole (Deadline White House Host)]

Dominic, what are you seeing in terms of signs of life, of people waking up from sort of a sleepwalking that's gone on for most of the last nine months?

[Stephen A. Smith]

Well, Nicole, I'm going to talk about two leading men. One, Viktor Orban, the prime minister of Hungary, who clearly wrote if Brendan Carr wrote the Project 2025 portions on media, this overall dash towards authoritarianism was a lot of it was in a blueprint from what's happened in Hungary. Another leading man I'll bring up, and I brought him up before on the show, is President Barack Obama, who today spoke out in perhaps the strongest terms he has since Trump returned to office about what's happening in relation to Jimmy Kimmel. And I think there, there lies an opportunity because I think that there is a lot of talk about if you have a Jimmy Kimmel illness alienates one half of America and a Megyn Kelly alienates another or something like that. In actual fact, I don't think that's true. I think people disagree on particular things. I think extremists always disagree on everything. But I think there is a potential here for people to say, as the barstool guys did, which is, hey, hey, enough's enough. This is not what we were talking about. And I think in that President Obama is someone who can really take the lead here. It'd be interesting to also see what Stephen Colbert does tonight. Stephen Colbert got pink, slipped by Paramount, CBS. But he's on the air actually until mid-2026. And the recent Emmy winner is certainly going to take every opportunity possible. And then of course, there's another thing that I would look at and you guys might laugh at me about this, but I will talk about Meghan Kelly and Tucker Carlson, who both lost their jobs in mainstream media for very different reasons and now blossom in non traditional. Perhaps that is the place, perhaps that is the place for Jimmy Kimmel. These are guys who cut their chops in the clubs. Maybe it's time to get a little punk rock and hardcore about it and take it back to that. Because in many ways we know in a cord cutting universe that that is a new leg of media and it's becoming incredibly strong. So perhaps don't fight them where they think the battle is. Create a new battlefield.

[Nicole (Deadline White House Host)]

Yeah, I love that. I'll read as we go to break up President Obama's statement on the Kimbel News. Quote, after years of complaining about cancel culture, the current administration has taken it to a new and dangerous level by routinely threatening regulatory action against media companies unless they muzzle or fire reporters and commentators it doesn't like. I'm going to ask all of you to stick around. We have to sneak in a break, but we have much more ahead on what was once one of the norms, as Michael said, one of the tenets of our country, free speech and the hypocrisy on the right. We'll show you exactly what they said, show you their faces. Plus what Democrats are saying today pushing back forcefully against the Trump administration's abuse of power. And one of those Democrats we'll be speaking with is Senator Jackie Rosen. She's a personal friend of Jimmy Kimmel. She'll tell us how she and her colleagues are demanding answers today from the fcc. We'll have all those stories and more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

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[Nicole (Deadline White House Host)]

These are protests that have broken out in Los Angeles. Dominic, this is, this is larger than it was this morning. Certainly a crowd and growing. We're back with Dominic, Oliver and Michael. What do you expect the reaction among entertainers to be? Dominic, do you expect Jimmy Kimmel to show up on Seth, on Jimmy Fallon? Do you expect some solidarity among this very small group?

[Stephen A. Smith]

I think we're, I think we're already seeing it, Nicole. You know, in fact, we just recently published a story in the break that in fact Jon Stewart is making a rare Thursday night hosting appearance on the Daily Show. Now, I don't think John's coming back to talk about the trade deal with the UK if you know what I mean. So I think we're definitely gonna see something about that. I think a lot of this is, I think there's a little bit of a shock, clearly and there's a little bit of a wait and see. There is, as Oliver mentioned and as I mentioned and as Deadline is reported, there is talk in Disney about making this a short term thing of finding a way back. Whether or not that happens is altogether different. But I think that there's also the feeling now that the threat against Fallon, now the threat against Seth, I think that there's a feeling that people are getting it, it that they're under threat, that this is real. As you said, it's happened here. It's not happening. It's not won't happen. It's happened. As Oliver said, there's a sense of a little bit of what we used to call a banana republic emerging here or as I would say, Viktor Orban 2.0. So I think that there's a real sense that there has to be some sort of pushback. And I will point out that I think is the is what you're gonna see hopefully soon, because as anyone who's ever dealt with a schoolyard bully knows, they don't like it when you push back and they don't have a backup plan for that. It can't help but be ironic on all levels that the one outlet that has pushed back, besides you guys, of course, is the Wall Street Journal, owned by Trump best buddy Rupert Murdoch. But now they're suing each other for billions, though he was at the dinner in the uk so perhaps they only sue in the daytime and not over dinner.

[Nicole (Deadline White House Host)]

I mean, Oliver, this is an interesting contrast though. I mean, even folks who have studied Orban, and I believe this includes the publisher of your paper, would posit that it didn't happen this quickly in Hungary. I mean, there was a pretty functioning and free press for many years in Hungary. We're in month nine. Two organizations have capitulated sort of in advance, sort of Timothy Snyder's Obeying an advance theory. First page of On Tyranny. Murdoch is fighting the birthday book, perhaps because it's something you can hold in your hand. And the conspiracy theory that it's fake is so audacious. In 2003, Trump was a Democrat, so someone made up. I mean, it's so outrageous that even Trump can't think he'd prevail there legally. But what does this point mean for media executives who think they're just going to go along to get along? What would be left? I mean, what is a value inside a media organization if all these top tier talent has been purged?

[Oliver Darcy]

Yeah, I mean, I think there's a saying, right? It's slow and then it happens all at once. And I feel like we're starting to see it's happening all at once. It's happening very fast, faster than we can keep up with. I mean, like you said, the New York Times got sued earlier a few days ago. That's a huge story. And now we're talking about Jimmy Kimmel being thrown off the air. I do think though that the issue with executives is they can't. They've been trying to obey the schoolyard bully and schoolyard bullies rule out of fear. Right. They know they can't take on everyone at once, but they can isolate people and they can make an example out of them and that's how they rule the playground. And as long as executives are going to go along with that, as Long as they're going to be in line, Trump is going to grow more and more emboldened. He's not going to, it's not going to go the other way around. I think when the media executives, when technology executives start actually showing some backbone, start acting like they are the billionaires that they are, that they have power and pushing back, I think that's when, you know, you'll see more, you know, they'll come together and it'll be much more difficult for Donald Trump to get away with this. But right now, he's sort of isolated them all and they're all operating out of fear.

[Michael Grimbaum]

I think Trump himself has seemed almost, almost stunned that he's been as successful as he has been with all these efforts. I mean, I think after ABC first capitulated on the George Stephanopoulos suit last year, I'm forgetting the exact quote, but Trump sort of expressed like almost surprise that all of a sudden that had, you know, Disney had given in to him. And I thought even Brendan Carr, I mean, if you actually look at what he said on Benny Johnson's podcast, yes, it was specific to Jimmy Kimmel, but I would say it was really very similar rhetoric that he's been saying in public for months. I mean, everything about broadcast licenses, about the, you know, community interest of local stations, I mean, we've heard that from him again and again. But something happened yesterday. I mean, it went like lightning around the right wing blogosphere. And when I saw him on Sean Hanney last night, I'd love if, Brendan, I'd love to interview you and ask you about this, but he seemed almost a little surprised that Disney actually had taken the guy off the air. So I would put the question back as Oliver did to the media executives. You know, yes, there's a lot of pressures on them, but, you know, there are some media corporations that have not given in so quickly that are pushing back. You know, when will we see some more of that backbone from the larger media corporations?

[Nicole (Deadline White House Host)]

When or will we? DOMINIC?

[Stephen A. Smith]

Well, I don't know, Nicole. I mean, I will say this, though. All of those media executives and media corporations should wake up a little bit because the reality is if they think that you make a deal with Trump or the Trump, admit the MAGA crowd and then they get off your back, think again, because it doesn't work like that. If you're thinking, you know, we used to refer to Trump as being a transactional guy, but he's more of a trampling guy, trampling over all this stuff, the norms and the Institutions and the Constitution. In many ways, you're not gonna win. You're not gonna get him to be your buddy, for God's sake. As I said, he's suing Rupert Murdoch, who basically helped put him in office. So I think that what has to happen here is there needs to be. You guys might laugh, but there needs to be more barstool. There needs to be. Joe.

[Nicole (Deadline White House Host)]

I'm not laughing. I agree. That's why I played it. I agree. Yeah. I mean, it's the Fishers. Yeah. In their own coalition. I mean, Megyn Kelly notably warned him against going into Chicago. I don't want to give her all the credit, but he didn't go into Chicago. I mean, it is the ruptures in his own coalition that seem to get their attention.

[Stephen A. Smith]

Exactly. And I think this is a man who is obsessed with his base. Whether or not he hopes to get reelected in 2028 or obey the Constitution or not, he responds to the base instinctively. He responds to the base when he thinks he's losing them. As we saw the months of Jeffrey Epstein files, distractions going on and on and on and on. The base can rise up. And I think again, and I am not an optimist in any ways, I am a natural born cynic. But I will say, people know when they're being sold a raw deal. We heard people like Andrew Schultz say, this is not what I voted for. You know, now I believe in that particular case, he was talking about immigration and the mass ice abductions. But I think that this is part of it because, remember, it doesn't stop. They don't stop with one guy or one institution. They keep going and going. Their strength right now is based on the weakness of their eminent enemies. As they used to say about Margaret Thatcher and to some degree, Ronald Reagan. Once they find an enemy who might be amongst their own, who decides that he's not going to let them, or he or she is not going to let them punch is going to punch back. You might see a whole different game. And remember, too, Brendan Carr used to be the guy back in 2020, in 22, who said President Biden's right. Political satire should never be touched. It's a fundamental part of who we are. A lot of these sicko fans are just running to be close to the Golden Throne. As soon as the throne is gone, they're going to be running for the hills.

[Nicole (Deadline White House Host)]

Dominic Patton, thank you so much for starting us off today. Everyone else sticks around. Up next for us all, we'll show you what some of this hypocrisy looks and sounds like it's incredible to see. Quick break. We'll all be right back. As we played at the top of the show, Donald Trump thought promising everyone the First Amendment would be protected and his words restored was so important it is. Near the beginning of his inaugural address from earlier this year, he started his second term as president pledging to champion the free speech rights of all Americans. All Americans. It wasn't just him, it was something that some people voted for him because of. It's something conservatives once claimed was fundamental to a politician they would support and to their political beliefs.

[Stephen A. Smith]

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[Michael Grimbaum]

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[Stephen A. Smith]

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[Oliver Darcy]

Fantasy football is fun.

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Winning is even more fun. And our listeners do both. Listen to the Fantasy Footballers podcast right now on the SiriusXM app. Just search Fantasy footballers.

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[Oliver Darcy]

There is a new sheriff in town and under Donald Trump's leadership.

[Stephen A. Smith]

We may disagree with your views, but.

[Oliver Darcy]

We will fight to defend your right to offer it in the public square in America.

[Michael Grimbaum]

We have the right of free speech.

[Ann Applebaum]

We have the right to offend, to provoke, to annoy and to stand up for what we believe in, even if you find it controversial.

[Oliver Darcy]

This is just a classic left wing hypocrisy. They want to push their ideological agenda and they want to silence and punish conservatives.

[Stephen A. Smith]

It's unbelievable and we just have to stand up and say no. I just believe in freedom. Why are liberals so afraid of freedom.

[Donald Trump]

And freedom of speech.

[Michael Grimbaum]

I don't get outraged.

[Stephen A. Smith]

You can turn off the tv, turn off a radio dial, turn off a.

[Donald Trump]

Podcast, walk out of a commencement.

[Nicole (Deadline White House Host)]

Couldn't have said it better myself. Joining our conversation, staff writer for the Atlantic and Applebaum has joined us, and we're lucky that she's here in person today. She's going to be at the Atlantic Festival, which begins today and includes conversations with a remarkable, remarkable, remarkable rundown of guests, including Ann, and politicians and entertainers and business leaders. Oliver and Michael stayed with us. We're so grateful for that. Ann, I just invoke something that you have said to me before that startled me when you said it, but it stayed with me. And I think your publishers made the same point that people point to Hungary. But we're moving a lot quicker than Orban ever did.

[Ann Applebaum]

Oh, no. Orban took many, many years to buy up newspapers, to get his friends to take over television stations. You know, it was a very long, careful process. He didn't want to scare people. He didn't want to create a backlash. What's happening here right now actually looks, I'm not the only one who's been saying it. Garry Kasparov said it yesterday. It looks a lot more like what Vladimir Putin did when he took power in Russia. And one of the first things he did was he took over a television station. That was critical. And as he was doing that, one of the things he insisted on was that they eliminate a comedy show that he didn't like. It was a puppet show. It was called Kukli. And the various political figures in Russia were parodied in different ways as puppets. And he didn't like the Putin puppet. And he sent a letter to the producer of the show, told them to take it off the air. I think they played around with it for a little while and they put a Putin thing with instead of Putin, they put a cloud or a sort of. And then they, you know, and then that, then it just disappeared altogether. So this is a, there's a long tradition of authoritarian leaders not liking to be mocked and not getting the joke.

[Nicole (Deadline White House Host)]

What's amazing and what makes it undeniable that this is what's happening is that it's not about speech. It's not about free speech for anyone other than the folks who are agree with them. And I want to show you something that Brian Kilmeade, a host over on Fox and Friends, said last week.

[Stephen A. Smith]

Either you take the resources that we're going to give you and, or you decide that you're going to be Locked up in jail. That's the way it has to be now. Or involuntary lethal injection or something.

[Oliver Darcy]

Just kill them.

[Nicole (Deadline White House Host)]

They were talking about homeless people. There are millions of homeless people in America. And his quote was, involuntary lethal injection or something. Just kill them. He apologized. He said, we were discussing the murder of Irana Zarudska in Charlotte, North Carolina, how to stop these kinds of attacks by homeless, mentally ill assailants. He says, I apologize for that callous remark. He's still on the air. So speech calling for the murder of millions of people is about as callous and over the line as it gets. It came with an apology. Jimmy Kimmel also sought to contextualize and wanted to go on the air and apologize. There's no denying that freedoms only apply to one class of Americans and they are Trump supporters.

[Ann Applebaum]

No, there's a lot of hypocrisy in this administration. And it actually goes back, I think you played earlier in the show, you played the clip of Trump saying there had been Biden government censorship, and now he's going to reverse it. There was no Biden government censorship. I mean, this was an entirely fake narrative. It emerged from, if you remember the whole Twitter file story, there was a fake allegation that the Biden administration had censored 22 million tweets. And this was a misreading of an academic report that was put out by Stanford that said that an academic group had looked at 22 million tweets. And. And this became a thing that was repeated over and over and over again. And actually, one of the things I've been thinking about is how rarely that was challenged. In other words, while they were creating this fake narrative about how they were being censored and they were creating this sense of resentment and anger, it was very rarely exposed that this feeling of resentment and anger was almost entirely invented.

[Nicole (Deadline White House Host)]

Well, it was rarely pushed back. And then. And I think it also. I remember that. And it also highlighted the dominance over sort of narrative control, that the dissemination of the disinformation was so far and wide that even the people that were trying to fact check it, it was such a feeble attempt compared to how far and wide it had spread.

[Stephen A. Smith]

Yeah.

[Ann Applebaum]

And it was a complicated story. You had to go back to the report and you had to explain why they were wrong and how it was and how the story was badly told. And that takes a long time, you know, and people. People just moved on quickly. And meanwhile, the MAGA group were focused on that, getting ready for their revenge, preparing to have the FCC be the kind of tool that it is. And thinking about how they were going to take over the media, I had.

[Nicole (Deadline White House Host)]

To sink in a break. I'm going to ask all of you for advice for anyone doing any of these jobs on the other side of a break. So I gave you a warning. I gave you the test. You have three minutes. We'll all be right back. We're back with Ann Oliver and Michael. In the year 2022, someone said this quote, if the idea of free speech enrages you, the cornerstone of democratic self government, then I regret to inform you that you are a fascist. But that someone was Stephen Miller. Does that surprise you?

[Michael Grimbaum]

Hard to be surprised anymore these days. I mean, a driving force of the MAGA movement was, as you said, an emphasis on free expression. They really felt that the left had censored their views in their media outlets. And it's interesting because there is a younger generation that I think sort of sees politics really as this point scoring game, right, where you're kind of dunking on the opposite. And the barstool clip you showed was very intriguing to me because, I mean, free speech is so fundamental to this country. People. I think Americans really do feel it in their bones. And look, it's hard not to be discouraged by sort of these events over the last 24 hours. But I want to see, as you said, what would even someone like Tucker Carlson say about this or Megyn Kelly, or people who many on the left find repellent but really have bank their careers on the ability to be provocative and say what they mean? In the past, they've claimed that they meant it. I think this is a real litmus test for them as well.

[Nicole (Deadline White House Host)]

What are you seeing? I feel like you sit on high and have this completely. You do too. But you are in an organization being sued right now by Donald Trump. You've had to cover yourself. And I guess what are you able to see as someone who sort of made that transition to subscriber, your relationship is, is directly with your subscribers. Do you want to say who they include and do you want to say what you're seeing from your perspective now?

[Oliver Darcy]

Yeah, I think one of the things I see from just mass media is a reluctance to call things as they.

[Nicole (Deadline White House Host)]

Are when they're happening, when they're happening.

[Oliver Darcy]

And you see a lot of watered down copy. I mean even, let's take Elon Musk, okay? This is a man who has spread countless conspiracy theories that we can point them all out. He spreads misinformation regularly, but you never see a story that Says conspiracy theorist Elon Musk. Right or right wing misinformation artist Elon Musk in the mainstream press, in the mass press.

[Michael Grimbaum]

And I think there's a reluctance to.

[Oliver Darcy]

Call things as they are. These things just get diluted and we pay attention every single day. We are studying this stuff. This is our job. I often think about the people who just absorb news through the evening news and these stories don't come through to them. They don't actually understand who is controlling the information ecosystem because they're not described to the regular viewer. They're not even covered. Someone like Charlie Kirk wielded enormous, enormous influence in American politics. Was he ever covered on the abc, on World News or NBC Nightly News or even really in some of the major institutions? Not really. I mean, these people go under the radar. And I think if you want to understand what's happening in America, you have to understand the polluted, toxic information ecosystem. And the only way to understand that is by covering these right wing media figures who are dumping toxic waste in it every single day. And they just do not get enough coverage and the people who enable them do not get enough coverage.

[Nicole (Deadline White House Host)]

Why isn't there a left wing media ecosystem?

[Oliver Darcy]

I think liberals tend to hew to fact based media and that's not sticky.

[Nicole (Deadline White House Host)]

And that's not appealing.

[Oliver Darcy]

It's not that there isn't a left wing media. Yes, there is a left wing media media ecosystem. It's just not as robust as the right wing media ecosystem and it's far more tethered. We're talking broad strokes here, but it's far more tethered to reality and to reporting that the New York Times does. Whereas Fox News, they just invent things out of thin air at times. We saw that with the Dominion documents. You can see that the most senior executives of the company, the most senior talent, was comfortable putting stuff on air that wasn't true. That doesn't generally happen anywhere on the left. There's no left wing equivalent of Fox News.

[Nicole (Deadline White House Host)]

Thank you guys so much for being here at the table. I hope this is a conversation that can be continued. Oliver Darcy and Michael Grimbaum leave us and sticks around with me at the table for a little bit longer. Up next, some moves around the Supreme Court today on two of Donald Trump's biggest hurdles when it comes to his favorite economic policy tool bringing that reporting. Next, the United States Supreme Court today followed through on its promise to move quickly on Trump's tariff cases. Scheduling arguments for November 5th. The case sets up another major test of Donald Trump's use of executive power. The cases both challenge Trump's use of emergency powers to impose the tariffs, which without approval from Congress. Also today, Trump is asking the court to take up his latest economic fixation, the firing of Federal Reserve Board member Lisa Cook. It is part of his broader effort to remake the Fed. It's a lot to keep track of. So to stay up to date on all the key legal developments, make sure you are subscribed to the Deadline Legal newsletter by scanning the QR code on your screen right now. Insight and analysis from our very own Jordan Rubin will be delivered to your inbox every video Friday. We'll stay on those cases. When we come back, how Democrats are planning on pushing back against the FCC chairman and his threats. They've been coming in fast and furiously since we've been on the air for the last 56 minutes to continue to target the media. Brendan Carr promising that last night was just the beginning. The next hour of Deadline White House starts after a very short break. Don't go anywhere today.

[Stephen A. Smith]

Hey, this is Jeff Lewis from Radio Andy live and uncensored. Catch me talking with my friends about my latest obsessions, relationship issues and bodily ailments. With that kind of drama that seems to follow me, you never know what's going to happen.

[Nicole (Deadline White House Host)]

You can listen to Jeff Lewis live at home or anywhere you are.

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