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Deadline: White House
“Epstein's victims demand accountability”
00:42:24
Nicolle Wallace covers the stark difference between how the UK’s government has responded to the latest information uncovered by the Epstein files and how the US has responded. Where high-ranking officials in the UK are resigning in protest after US ambassador Peter Mandelson was found to be in the files, the United States government has largely remained mute after prominent names in the US government were found in the files. One name that popped up often – in more than 250 documents – is Howard Lutnick, the Trump administration’s commerce secretary.
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- [00:00]
Host 1
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- [00:28]
Announcer/Reporter
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- [00:57]
Host 2
Hi everyone, it's four o'clock in New York. There's a dramatic split scream playing out when it comes to the issue of accountability over connections to the deceased sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. On the one hand, the revelations from the Epstein files are roiling the UK Government. Prime Minister Keir Starmer is facing mounting calls to resign over having ever appointed Peter Mendelsohn. Peter Mendelson is under investigation over his ties to Jeffrey Epstein. He was the Ambassador to the United States. Additionally, Starmer's communications chief and closest aide have both resigned in recent days. On the other hand, accountability here in the US Pales in comparison. There was an attempt by the House Oversight Committee to question Epstein's co conspirator Ghislaine Maxwell today. But appearing by video from her minimum security prison cell, Maxwell pleaded the fifth in her depot refusing to answer any questions. Here's what Congressman James Walkinshaw says was made clear from Maxwell's appearance.
- [02:00]
Announcer/Reporter
What we did get was another episode in her long running campaign for clemency from President Trump. And President Trump could end that today. He could rule out clemency for Ghislaine Maxwell, the monster. He could rule out a pardon for Ghislaine Maxwell the monster. The question for all of us today is why hasn't he done that and.
- [02:28]
Political Analyst
Why won't he do that?
- [02:33]
Host 2
Ghislaine Maxwell, of course, a convicted child sex trafficker. Also today, some members of Congress are starting to view the unredacted material in the Epstein files and they'll be able to determine if the Department of Justice under Pam Bondi improperly withheld anything. Congressman Jamie Raskin had this to say after viewing some of that unredacted material.
- [02:54]
Announcer/Reporter
I went over there and I was able to determine, at least I believe, that there were tons of completely unnecessary redactions. I think that the Department of Justice has been in a cover up mode for many months and has been trying to sweep the entire thing under the rug. The more that I've gotten into it, the more I believe that the survivors here, the victims who are now active citizens for justice, really are leading the way. And we need to be having hearings with the survivors to hear from them about their experiences so they can explain what happened and so they can begin to set forth a theory of what took place.
- [03:41]
Host 2
We're going to have a chance to talk to another member of Congress, a lawmaker who viewed the unredactive material, material in the Epstein files in our next hour. Meanwhile, though, more is continuing to come out about people inside Trump's cabinet and administration who had ties to Jeffrey Epstein. Like the years long relationship that Donald Trump's Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick had with Jeffrey Epstein despite making these claims in a TV interview a few months ago.
- [04:08]
Announcer/Reporter
The guy's gross, right? With my wife, he's grow. The guy's gross. This was not, oh, the deep nuance of Howard Lutnick. This guy's gross, right? So how come Bill Gates and all these other people could hang around him and not see what you saw? Or did they see it and ignore it or. No, they participated, right? That's what his M.O. was. You know, get a massage. Get a massage. And what happened in that massage room I assume was on video. This guy was the greatest blackmailer ever.
- [04:40]
Host 2
He was so gross. It was so gross. But New York Times is reporting this on what the Epstein files released by DOJ about Letnick and Epstein's relationship. This is what's in there. Quote, they invested in the same privately held company together. They dealt with one another on neighborhood and philanthropic issues and appear to have socialized in New York and in the Caribbean. The records show Mr. Epstein at one point sought to meet with Mr. Letnick's nanny. Mr. Letnick's name appears in more than 250 documents in the Epstein files released by the Justice Department. According to a review by the New York Times, there are some calls for Ludnick to resign, including from Republican Congressman Thomas Massie. There are few if any signs that the Trump administration is interested in holding anyone accountable. Gross. For the survivors of Epstein's heinous crimes, though the accountability they are seeking has barely begun. Here's the powerful message a group of survivors put out to Attorney General Pambandi yesterday.
- [06:04]
Political Analyst
After years of being kept apart. We're standing together, Standing, standing together because.
- [06:10]
Host 2
This girl deserves the truth, because she deserves the truth, because we all deserve the truth. So where we start, we're lucky to get to bring in Dani Bensky again. She's one of the Epstein survivors. She's in that ad. She's been bravely sharing her story and advocating for transparency. Nothing more, nothing less from the Trump administration. Also joining us, political analyst Molly Zhang Fast. She's the host of Fast Politics. She's a New York Times contributing opinion writer with an incredible new piece out on this topic. Also at the table, former U.S. attorney, former Deputy Assistant Attorney General Harry Lemons. Here. Let me deal with what's happening abroad first. It feels like that's a normal reaction to the material in the Epstein files. And rather than being, I mean, it just seems like a sign of how broken our politics are, that there's no laws of gravity apply. What's happening in the UK feels like a normal reaction to frequent appearances in the newly released files of a dead, convicted child sex trafficker.
- [07:29]
Epstein Survivor (Dani Bensky)
Yes, well, there are investigations. Right. And so even, like, I'm getting interview requests from Norway because Norway is taking this so seriously. And it just shows all of the flaws that are happening within our government right now. It's sort of just like when Ghislaine is pleading the Fifth. That almost feels like such an admission of guilt. It doesn't almost. It does feel like an admission of guilt.
- [07:50]
Host 2
Trump thinks so, too. Trump said that about people that take the Fifth.
- [07:53]
Epstein Survivor (Dani Bensky)
Yeah, and it's all about, like, seeking clemency and not saying anything and all that. And it just feels like, you know, we're just continuing to double down on the COVID up. And that's what it feels like our DOJ is doing. I feel like incompetence is the strategy here. It has been from the beginning. It was said by Jess Michaels. And I was like, oh, well, you know, if they forgot to redact a few things. And then we saw the pages come out with our names all over and our information all over. And then they had to pull them all down and then they had to put new things up. And so, like, we don't even know what's coming down and what's going up at this point. So it's all part of this cover up. And we're feeling like, man, I wish that we could get the same accountability that we're seeing in the UK and the UK Just keeps pushing for more. And we just. It's really amazing to feel, feel seen. And the brave Virginia Duffre really led the way there.
- [08:42]
Host 2
Do you think there's any way that the investigations they're pursuing in the UK will reveal the actors here that our own DOJ won't?
- [08:52]
Epstein Survivor (Dani Bensky)
We certainly hope so. We certainly hope that the more countries investigate, the more they'll find this sort of coercive control and foreign leaders that are involved and be able to really dig in and see the scope of what we're talking about. I do want to mention we talk a lot about the participants right now. We're talking about a lot of foreign leaders and domestic leaders. But I want to talk a little bit about making sure we're getting the inner workings right. So making sure that we are looking at the co conspirators right here in this story. Because we saw 3 million pages, we know that there are more. But instead of focusing on the 3 million that we don't have, I think it's really important to look at the 3 million that we do and remember that this enterprise absolutely did not run by itself. Indyke and Khan are going before the House Oversight Committee. Les Wexner will be in front of the House Oversight Committee. And I think our fear is that they follow what Ghislaine did today and plead the Fifth. And we don't see, see any real information. But again, that's an admission of guilt in its own right.
- [09:55]
Host 2
So say more about that. So your worry is that the conversation about everything that has not been released is going to obscure all the new information. We have the tens of thousands of mentions of Donald Trump and others.
- [10:10]
Epstein Survivor (Dani Bensky)
We have so much information and it needs to be investigated. And I find right now the focus has been on, you know, survivors wanted everything out there. They wanted the transparency out there, and now they want to walk it back because all their information is out there. When it's really about the bigger picture here, right? It's about the fact that we are not investigating perpetrators, whether they were internal or participants. We need to go after them.
- [10:35]
Host 2
Molly, this is the substance of what you write about. Talk about it.
- [10:38]
Political Analyst
Yeah. So look, I'm so grateful to the survivors because we would have none of this if they had not put them, you know, they've been so traumatized.
- [10:49]
Host 2
They're the reason the law exists in the past.
- [10:52]
Political Analyst
And the reason that we know any of this is because these women kept saying for decades to the FBI, please, please, please listen to us. Right? More than 1,000 women. This is probably like the largest sex trafficking in hopefully in American history. Hopefully there aren't larger than this. And we have almost zero accountability. And I think one of the worst moments was Cash Patel sitting up there saying that the only person involved, you know, that ever trafficked was Jeffrey Epstein himself. When we knew that wasn't true.
- [11:21]
Host 2
And Kash Patel knew that wasn't true because he said on Joe Rogan's podcast that there were mountains of evidence.
- [11:28]
Political Analyst
It's just incomprehensible to me. So the thing that I have written about and that I continue to write about and that I hope that I won't eventually have to write about is the fact that these women, this is just, you don't even need the big conspiracy here is that these women were not listened to, that we did not, you know, that they did not trust them, that they just ignored them, that they did not investigate. I mean, the thing that you see with the redactions is that there's so much cover up of just the inability to do their jobs right, where they didn't follow leads, where they didn't investigate, they didn't search properties that they didn't investigate. You know, even with the unredacted images, Right. They put these, you know, the Wall Street Journal reported that 43 names of victims were in those files. So they didn't redact those names. They didn't redact a lot of im that was, you know, I talked to a reporter from the Times who said that they had to call the DOJ and tell them that these unredacted images of these women who may have been children at the time were in these files. So there was just, it was incompetence, it was neglect, but it was also, I think. And we'll see more of this, but we'll understand more of this. But there were redactions of likely men that were involved in this too, who are being protected and then not redacting the victims names, who should be protected.
- [12:48]
Host 2
Incompetence and neglect if it was so perfectly covered up for the men.
- [12:53]
Political Analyst
Yeah, well, I think that's a real question. It's like so obviously I think it was both. But yes, the COVID up of the men. And I want to know, I also want to know, like, who are the men in the videos? Right. Who are the men in the photographs? Because there are tens of thousands of photographs and videos that were clearly kept for blackmail. Right? I mean, that's part of this scam. And I think there's other stuff too, other financial malfeasance, but we need, like if we can't, for example, I was talking to members of oversight and saying, like, why can't you release the financial documents? Like, where are all the financial documents? And they were saying that there's some like, law against financial, you know, releasing financial documents. Okay, then explain them, then explain them to us with hearings. Like, we need transparency. This is like one of the biggest, I think, crimes that our government has, like covered up and not explained. And we need, we deserve the American people, the victims. We deserve to see what went wrong so it doesn't go wrong again.
- [13:53]
Host 2
Harry. I think it's also important to point out how many times they've gone through every piece of paper because the first time it was publicly reported that they went through all the files was when multiple news organizations reported that they went through looking for Donald Trump's name in them. And then they reported to him. So it's not neglect. They've been very, whatever the opposite, diligent in combing through them, at least on that read. And then they went through it again and appeared to have redacted a lot of participants where the neglect is. And I guess my question for you is whether it's neglect or intentional. Was leaving Danny's name unredacted and her address in there?
- [14:31]
Host 1
Yeah, it seems at least to be a combination. But remember, first there's an abiding mystery. Before this all happened, the president was totally on the warpath to keep it from happening, woodshed at different allies to say, don't vote here. And then it was just an overwhelming vote and he had to. That was before anything happened. But the act said December 19th, give us everything. What did they give us? 100 pages that basically said Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton. You can't find those by accident. So that was obviously something that involves some kind of wholesale looking. And then a kind of classic defense strategy is the Friday data dump. Here's some 3 million more you guys figured out. And yet, notwithstanding all the protests about how hard they've been trying, et cetera, there were just so many screw ups there. I think the administration is hoping. Now, one quick point about England, the prosecuting agencies are looking there. We know here that won't happen. Pam Bondi's Department of Justice won't ever do anything that makes it a political issue.
- [15:34]
Political Analyst
But SDNY might.
- [15:37]
Host 1
I think not. But, but, but fair enough. And remember, they already prosecuted Gillian Maxwell. But there's a couple. Berman and Engelmeier have some part of this. There are many different parts around. But nothing has really gone to the Tippy top. And yet the kryptonite status that the story had, it now has. But around the world, and it certainly seems is not beyond a reasonable doubt. This is just me looking at it, that there's an overall kind of Machiavellian strategy to hopefully just make it die down among many people. Obviously, the sponsors of the act itself, including Representative Massie, the survivors and others who are are still very focused on it. But I think from Todd, Blanche and others, there was every apparent suggestion that enough is enough on this stuff. Notwithstanding, there are 3 million. Notwithstanding, they've never done a single redaction where they've explained that the redactions are a huge scandal in and of themselves. But I think they're kind of rolling the dice and thinking that the hubbub maybe will die down, but maybe it won't.
- [16:45]
Host 2
Yeah, go ahead.
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Epstein Survivor (Dani Bensky)
Oh, yeah. Harry makes an excellent point. And I think that something that we're hearing right now, you know, a bunch of us are headed to the Hill this week to hear the Bondi hearing. And something that we've been hearing through the grapevine is that Massie is the only Republican who will be questioning Bondi about files. And that's really disheartening because I was so. You know, survivors have always said this is not political, it's not partisan. I don't know how many more ways we can get more creative in saying that we are human first. Right. And we've met with a lot of Republican congressional leaders, every one of which.
- [17:20]
Host 1
Voted for the Epstein Transaction Act.
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Epstein Survivor (Dani Bensky)
That's what I was gonna say is they really showed up for us for the Transparency Act. And it was just so incredible to see, like, the aisles cross, you know, and just for really, for humanity. It felt like a moment. And so now it's really incredibly disheartening to hear that they might not be questioning Bondi, because I think she has a lot to answer for right now. And survivors are really tired of being re victimized over and over. There's the abuse that happened, and that was a horrific experience. And now we're being re victimized by the doj. I mean, it's just. It's exhausting for survivors everywhere. And it's like, well, what else can we do? Push a psa, do whatever we possibly can to say that this is not acceptable from your government.
- [18:05]
Political Analyst
Yes. What is.
- [18:06]
Host 2
I mean, is the government arguing that your personal information should be made public and the people accused of crime? I mean, what is.
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Epstein Survivor (Dani Bensky)
I mean, we wouldn't even know because I haven't been in contact with anybody.
- [18:21]
Host 2
So they still haven't talked to you? Does anyone. Did anyone apologize for releasing your address?
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Epstein Survivor (Dani Bensky)
Nothing. Absolutely nothing.
- [18:28]
Host 2
Has your lawyer been in touch with the Department of Justice?
- [18:30]
Epstein Survivor (Dani Bensky)
They have, yes. They have only to make sure that the redactions are happening now. For we've. Girls overseas have faced a ton of retaliation. And yeah, I mean, there have been some horrible threats that we have received. And so we just wanted to make sure to get the Jane does redacted as quickly as possible. So I think that's been the focus.
- [18:51]
Host 2
Why couldn't Alvin Bragg open up a New York investigation?
- [18:55]
Political Analyst
He could.
- [18:56]
Host 2
He should.
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Host 1
Now, of course, that wouldn't be federal. Right?
- [18:59]
Political Analyst
Yeah.
- [18:59]
Host 1
Well, could, should and must. There you go.
- [19:01]
Political Analyst
Well, so, I mean, go ahead. What kind of world are we living in, right? That this is not the biggest scandal going, that Democrats are not. By the way, Massie was saying that that Latinx should resign. That should be the message from everyone. Right? These are. I mean, this is the difference between laws and norms.
- [19:18]
Host 2
Right.
- [19:19]
Political Analyst
It's in the rest of the world, the norms are that if you're involved in this, you're out of government. Because the government is supposed to be better than this, better than hanging out with a sex trafficker. And it's not illegal, but it's what we see in most governments. But because America has gone so beyond norms, at this moment, we're just here with these people who are. Who clearly, like Lutnick has clearly lied and he's just gonna go along with that.
- [19:47]
Host 1
Very quick point on Breck. He doesn't have the evidence. Right. He's not. And I don't think the feds are gonna give it to him. It's like Minnesota in miniature.
- [19:54]
Host 2
But Maureen Comey's been fired from the Justice Department. Why couldn't she be subpoenaed and asked about her cases?
- [20:01]
Host 1
She could, but her cases, remember the DOJ was. Oh, yes, let's reveal those. They were very self contained. And basically about Maxwell and Epstein only. So that grand jury, the motherlode, is really in Main Justice. One more quick point about Maxwell. That she takes the fifth today with a conviction final and that she sang like a canary to Blanche really brings home the kind of gamesmanship of this. It's not.
- [20:29]
Host 2
Is it gamesmanship or is it corruption? Both same.
- [20:33]
Host 1
Yeah, well, corrupt, you know, gamesmanship can be corruption. But yes, it's absolutely Blanche playing a role he had no business playing. That's corruption. Not doing the Deputy Attorney General of the United States working for Trump, not the Constitution. That's corruption, but the kind of suggestion that, oh, this is the truth. Can you please help tell us the truth now? Oh, I take the fifth. That's gamesmanship and corruption.
- [20:57]
Host 2
All right. No one's going anywhere. Obviously. There's much more to get to when we come back, much more about what's happening overseas. As Molly mentioned, we'll talk a little bit more about what she describes as the Epstein class inside our government. Plus, one of the lawmakers who is right now looking at the unredacted material in the Epstein files, Congressman Ro Khanna, will join us in a little bit. Plus chaos caused by Donald Trump and his aides at the institution responsible for doing the right thing on this issue and many others upholding the rule of law in America. We'll examine the implications with one of the reporters on that story ahead. And later in the broadcast. Bad Bunny's halftime extravaganza. He took the country by surprise. His critics said he would divide. Instead, he left the whole country on its feet, rooting for unity, maybe learning some new dance moves in the safety of their own living rooms. We'll get to all that and much more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
- [21:55]
Announcer/Reporter
Subscribe to Ms. Now Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access, ad free listening and bonus content to all of Ms. NOW's original podcast including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace, why is this Happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite msnow shows ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series including Rachel Maddow Presents Burn order. Subscribe to MSNow Premium on Apple Podcasts.
- [22:27]
Former DOJ Official / Reporter
We know that there are multiple administration.
- [22:30]
Political Analyst
Officials including Howard Lutnick, Elon Musk who served as the appointee for the DOGE efforts in the White House. We know that the Secretary of Navy we know that there that Steve Bannon. We know that there are more than three dozen associates, family members and individuals directly associated with Donald Trump named in those files. Now there are now at least nine.
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Former DOJ Official / Reporter
Or 10 other countries across the world.
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Political Analyst
That have opened investigations or forced their leaders to step down because of their mere association with Jeffrey Epstein. And the United States government is engaged in an active cover up of the largest sex trafficking scandal and influence peddling scandal in the history of the United States. And Donald Trump is right at the center of.
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Host 2
Is an undeniable truth that we are not handling this the same way every other government whose leaders and powerful people are mentioned in the files. I think we all know here that our politics are broken. But why is there not in the private sector an effort to distance themselves from people mentioned in the files like Elon Musk or Steve Bannon or Howard Letnick?
- [23:54]
Political Analyst
Yeah, and I think that's a real question. And what I would go back to is the boycott of Target. Like, people don't like this stuff. They don't like the divisive stuff. They don't like, you know, this sort of MAGA world stuff. You know, the kind of angry anti dei. That was what that protest was about, that boycott. And it actually really affected Target. And we saw this with the canceling of Jimmy Kimmel. Right. People didn't like that they were having their, you know, their favorite late night host take taken off the air because Trump didn't like him. Right. That was sort of kind of nuts. And so here we are in a moment where this is the largest sex trafficking ring in American history. These you have countless survivors, you have more than a thousand. And they are asking for accountability. And it's the least we can do. And we're seeing it around the world and I hope that we will see it in America in our government and also in our corporate sector.
- [24:54]
Host 2
So countries that are acting normal at the revelation of their leaders and powerful people being in the relationship released files of a dead convicted child sex trafficker. What will those investigations look like?
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Host 1
I'll just point to norms and laws. As Molly put it first. There'll be some that without investigations, people will resign in shame.
- [25:15]
Host 2
Shame, right.
- [25:16]
Host 1
And shame. There was a really good piece by Asha Rangapa today about shame and that feature that's left, aside from so much that we're talking about. But besides that, there are laws and there are also gonna be civil lawsuits. I think there's a little bit of abeyance right now as people are wondering what's gonna happen in Congress. What will Bondi say Wednesday? But I know there are suits being prepared, so I think it's gonna be sort of all hands on deck. The weird aspect, if I can call it that, is as Raskin and others are saying, there is. There seems to be parts of this that potentially go right to the heart of the administration. People want to ferret that out first if they can. But I think in normal countries where especially you have some measure of prosecutorial independence, you'll find certain crimes depending on statutes of limitations and that kind of legal feature. Absolutely. Going forward. It's ironic that this started out of great, you know, was the kryptonite issue that was sticking to Trump and Now, he may hope that he's in the process of shirking it off while it goes not just within the United States, but around the world. This really has become a global issue and a scandal of unknown and growing proportion.
- [26:36]
Host 2
What do you think it means that Donald Trump, Steve Bannon, Elon Musk, Howard Letnick, you know, the President, United States and three very close associates are so frequently mentioned in the files.
- [26:51]
Epstein Survivor (Dani Bensky)
I mean, Trump is mentioned more than Harry Potter is in the entire Harry Potter series. So he's in there a lot. And at the very least, you start to wonder, even if he wasn't complicit in anything, is he a co conspirator or, you know, the mind starts to wonder. Right. And I think for everybody involved, you know, if anybody was in. Was in Epstein's mansion, it would be hard for them not to know what was happening. Right. And so I think at least be brought in for questioning. And I guess that's why survivors are so upset, to be honest. Like, of course we endured the abuse. In 1996, Maria filed, Maria Farmer filed her report. It went completely unanswered. My abuse happened in 2004 and 2005 when I was 17 years old to 18. And my abuse would never have happened if it weren't for Maria or if anybody listened to Maria. Right. And I'm one of. And so that is the beginning, the very beginning of Systems failing in 1996. And now we bring it all the way through. You know, I sat at the House Oversight Committee. We told our stories in succession. It's this big, powerful moment. You know, politicians are shaking their hand. Thank you so much for being so brave. And we never see any accountability, even from that room. Right. And there are some politicians that are really working well with us, but we're not here to make it political. And it's just we never know how to get it out of the political arena. So it's that and then it's also just feeling this massive amount of just injustice in our world. For survivors as a whole, it's not about an Epstein and Maxwell survivor. It is about the little girls that are watching. It is about the survivor from the 50s, from the 70s, from the 80s. Right. And so it just like this, we are setting an example right now and it needs to change.
- [28:42]
Host 2
I'm always blown away. Not that you can go public, but that you can talk about it on live tv. Thank you so much for being here.
- [28:49]
Epstein Survivor (Dani Bensky)
Thank you.
- [28:50]
Host 2
Thank you so much. Can't have these conversations without the women. So, Danny, thank you Harry, Molly, thank you for being here too. Can't have these conversations without you either. After the break, Trump's purge at DOJ and DOJ's demand for loyalty as a predicate for being hired is actually causing real problems now for anyone left trying to uphold the rule of law in America. We'll bring you that brand new reporting in the New York Times next.
- [29:20]
Announcer/Reporter
Hey everyone, it's Chris Hayes. This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening? I'm joined by Ms. Now's Jacob Soboroff and Alex Wagner to discuss what we saw in Minneapolis.
- [29:29]
Former DOJ Official / Reporter
It was so emotional to see the goodness and the organization and the bravery of these strangers, hoping that they can help someone in a way that will maybe redirect the course of their life or their immediate, you know, next couple weeks.
- [29:41]
Announcer/Reporter
As much as the Border Patrol has evolved their tactics, I've seen them evolve on the other side of the nonviolent resistance since la. That's this week on why Is this Happening? Search for why Is this Happening wherever you're listening right now and follow.
- [29:57]
Host 2
There is some blockbuster new reporting today in the New York Times about Donald Trump's efforts to gut the rule of law in America completely and replace it with a system of political prosecutions and prosecutorial leniency for his partisan allies. There's evidence in this story that they may have broken the Department of Justice. The New York Times reveals that given the choice between serving Donald Trump's petty, vindictive, conspiratorial interests and maintaining their own integrity, the country's top lawyers, both inside DOJ and those considering a career in federal service, are choosing their integrity from that report. Quote, the intermingling of law enforcement and political goals has made the department long a magnet for platinum legal talent, an unappealing landing spot. According to current former officials who spoke anonymously, the number of applications is down significantly from previous years. Some of those applying are generally not as qualified as those who sought the positions. In recent past, several federal prosecutors offices around the country have suffered debilitating losses from firings and resignations, many stemming from efforts by senior department leaders to push career prosecutors into doing Trump's bidding. The New York Times reports that US attorneys offices lost a whopping 14% of their headcount in 2025, a one year drop unlike any in recent memory. The Times adds that those that are joining the Justice Department are effectively taking a loyalty test. More from the Times Report Quote, how would you help advance the president's executive orders and policy priorities in this role? Read one of the queries on an application for a job in the U.S. attorney's office in Minnesota. In fact, Team Trump has made it explicit. Work in the Justice Department and you work for Donald Trump. One former aide to Attorney General Pam Bondi tweeted this quote, if you are a lawyer and interested in being in a USA and support President Trump and anti crime agenda, DM me that's real not the Onion I want to bring in. New York Times Justice Department reporter Glenn Thrush. His byline is on that reporting we read from. Also joining us, former Department of Justice pardon attorney Liz Oyer is here. She was fired by Donald Trump's Justice Department last March after refusing to reinstate gun rights for actor Mel Gibson. Glenn, this is a pick your job off the table piece of reporting. Take us through it.
- [32:24]
Announcer/Reporter
Well, I think and you know, Liz, being here is is pretty emblematic of what has happened in this administration with the Justice Department. I think when you look at that number 14%, 14% reduction year to date in U.S. attorney's office offices. I think it's important for viewers to understand U.S. attorney's Office offices are the front line in the law and order agenda that Donald Trump ran and was elected on. Okay. And 14% may not seem like the end of the world, but it really is. First of all, it's targeting a lot of the highest profile offices around the country, New York, Washington, D.C. now Minneapolis, Los Angeles, because these are the places that Trump has targeted for what I describe as this tornado of intrusion by Main Justice. And it's not only in bringing cases against his political enemies, it's about blocking cases against political adversaries. The this all started at the beginning of the administration with the strong armed attempt to drop charges against Eric Adams in New York City. So what has happened is you have a perfect storm of problems. A lot of people in Main Justice, a lot of career officials got out of dodge before Trump was even sworn in or shortly thereafter. They took the fork in the road because they didn't want to be called upon to do things they didn't like. And when you add to that 14% that it's the cream of the crop, people like Liz who are at the top of their game, who have risen in the department leave because typically they have more options on the outside. So the bottom line is you start seeing these desperate reachouts, including from Rosen, who's the U.S. attorney in Minneapolis, begging Main justice to send bodies because they're not able to do basic cases, both in civil and in their criminal divisions. It has been described to us as a complete disaster.
- [34:23]
Host 2
Liz, I imagine you read a lot of this with a mix of sadness at this department. I mean, in my experience in government, it is, as Glenn writes, the best of the best that chooses these career paths, that chooses to protect their country. So all this national security work that we didn't even talk about yet, but there's also this intentional destruction of the department that is now undeniable on the part of Donald Trump.
- [34:53]
Former DOJ Official / Reporter
Yeah, it's really just shocking to see the extent to which the Department of Justice has been diminished. It's not just the attrition, the loss of people, but it's also the loss of the basic competence and credibility of the institution. The people who are going out the door are. Are experienced attorneys who know how to handle complex cases. This administration is claiming that it wants to pursue these complex cases, cases involving massive frauds, for example, that are being prosecuted in Minnesota. But they are losing the experienced people who know how to do these cases. And even if they could be readily replaced, their replacements would be people who need a great deal of training and experience before they can get up to speed, speed on how to do prosecutions of this level of complexity. There's also the issue of the blow to the institutional credibility of the Department of Justice in the eyes of the outside world, including courts. We've seen it documented now that there are hundreds of examples in which courts have found that representations made by Justice Department attorneys are not credible or believable. That is really just a shocking change from the reverence that the Department of Justice is storing historically has been given by courts. Their word is essentially gold, unimpeachable, and now their credibility is in the toilet. The experts who manage the most important, most vital cases to our national security and public safety are leaving in droves. And that leaves the American people in, frankly, a very dangerous and alarming situation.
- [36:32]
Host 2
Glenn, there's some incredible reporting about what's happening in Minneapolis that I want to ask you about. I have to sneak in a quick break first. We'll all be right back. On the other side.
- [36:43]
Host 1
We got immediately to work. On day one, we dismissed about 100.
- [36:47]
Announcer/Reporter
People who we thought were working against Donald J. Trump. Over the course of the next several.
- [36:52]
Political Analyst
Months, thousands of people from DOJ who.
- [36:55]
Host 1
Honestly looked themselves in the mirror and said, we cannot enforce this policy, they left.
- [36:59]
Announcer/Reporter
And, Steve, I have a lot of.
- [37:00]
Political Analyst
Respect for them because that's how government should work. It should work that if you can't follow the wishes of the duly enacted.
- [37:07]
Host 1
Or the duly elected President of the.
- [37:10]
Announcer/Reporter
United States, Then you need to leave, I guess.
- [37:14]
Host 2
Glenn, the problem with that message from former DOJ Chief of staff Chad Mazel is that it's never happened before, that the agenda was so offensive that many people left. And let me just read an example in your reporting. You write this. Prosecutors began investigating Renee Goode's killing. Washington told them to stop. Quote, over the next few days, top DOJ officials presented alternative approaches. First, they suggested prosecutors ask a judge to sign a new search warrant for the vehicle, predicated on a criminal investigation into whether the U.S. immigration and Customs Enforcement agent who shot Ms. Good, Jonathan Ross, had been assaulted by her. Later, they urged the prosecutors to instead investigate Ms. Good's partner, who had been with Ms. Good on the morning of the shooting, confronting immigration agents in their Minneapolis neighborhood. Just take us inside this one office.
- [38:06]
Announcer/Reporter
Yeah, the first thing. But before I do that, I just want to. What Chad Meisel said wasn't accurate. Thousands of people did not surprise. Thousands of people did not leave because they sat squarely looked in the mirror and said, I can't execute this policy. They left because they thought what the new administration was going to do is at variance with the Justice Manual, which prescribes that you go after crimes, not individuals. And most. And many of them were forced out in the belief they were put in positions they couldn't work. And I just want to sort of clarify his comments, but thank you. But it's a great extension into what's going on in the Minneapolis office. Look, we broke very early on in this process, and I was shocked when I started making phone calls right after the Good. The awful videotape of. Of the Good killing surfaced. The immediate response, and I mean immediate. Within an hour, the response I was getting from people in Minnesota, federal officials in Minnesota and in Washington was there. This was a clean shooting. And that there was no way they were going to bring any sort of investigation. A lot of us who covered this spent a lot of time. There's a large alumni association from New York City. We covered a lot of police violence in the 90s. And so many of. Many of these shootings have very similar patterns. And even back then, before a lot of reforms were instituted, there were protocols. People would be put on leave indefinitely until an investigation finished. All of the guns would be sequestered. We do not, at this moment in time have any sense whatsoever that any of these basic investigative procedures were followed. So what is happening inside the Minneapolis office is an extension of what happened in EDVA and in New York. People are being asked to make decisions and in this case, to investigate family members and the wife of the deceased and also to examine, quote, unquote, financial networks of antifa that may have contributed to this, rather than looking into the individual who was the trigger puller in this case. So you put people under that kind of pressure. Oh, and. And the other thing is straight out of the box, the strangest thing that I've ever seen on one of these investigations happened, and that was the FBI and DOJ ceased cooperation with local authorities. So everything was completely upside down here.
- [40:42]
Host 2
Liz, can you put it back together?
- [40:45]
Former DOJ Official / Reporter
Doj so I am hopeful that there is an opportunity to rebuild DOJ back better and stronger than it was before this administration started to dismantle it. I came into DOJ having spent 10 years as a federal public defender, and I had some notes about things that could be done differently and better. But the degree of damage that has been done so quickly by this administration is going to be very hard to repair. It's important to remember that this started on day one when Pam Bondi told the entire workforce of the Justice Department that we were all now working for the president of the United States. That has never before been how the job of Justice Department attorneys has been conceived. We work for the American people. We are lawyers for this country, not for any one man. And that message reshaped the Justice Department almost instantly and forced people into positions where they had to choose between maintaining their own ethics and integrity, abiding by the law, or pleasing their boss. And that is just an incredibly unfair and inappropriate position to put people in. And that is one of the things that caused so much attrition. The attrition is not normal. Normally, when an administration turns over, the overwhelming majority of the career staff of the justice department, which is 95% of the workforce, stays in their jobs. So what we're seeing now is incredibly unusual. And I think it can be fixed, but it's going to take a long time and a lot of work.
- [42:22]
Host 2
It's unbelievable. Glenn, incredible reporting. Liz, incredible insights. Thank you both for joining me today.
- [42:28]
Former DOJ Official / Reporter
Thanks.
- [42:29]
Host 2
When we come back, there's a brand new plea from our friend Savannah Guthrie to the public as another ransom deadline approaches. We'll tell you about it next. Nine days into the desperate search for Nancy Guthrie, and now with another purported ransom deadline approaching, Nancy's daughter, our friend and colleague Today show host Savannah Guthrie, shared another video in the last hour pleading for help. She was taken and we don't know.
- [43:00]
Former DOJ Official / Reporter
Where, and we need your help.
- [43:07]
Epstein Survivor (Dani Bensky)
So I'm coming on just to ask.
- [43:08]
Host 2
You not just for your prayers, but no matter where you are, even if you're far from Tucson, if you see anything, you hear anything, if there's anything at all that seems strange to you that you report to law enforcement. We are at an hour of desperation. Over the weekend, the FBI and sheriff's deputies were seen once again at Nancy Guthrie's house near Tucson, Arizona, as well as at the home of her daughter, Annie Guthrie. The sheriff says investigators are continuing to conduct follow up searches. Authorities say they still have not identified any suspects or persons of interest asking that anyone with any information call 1-800- call FBI. You could also call 911 or the Pima County Sheriff's Office. That number is 520-351-4900. After the break, how Bad Bunny ignored the haters and scored big last night. All in the name of unifying all of the the next hour of deadline White House starts after a quick break.
- [44:20]
Announcer/Reporter
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Host 1
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Announcer/Reporter
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- [44:50]
Host 1
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