← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
"Everyone wants this to end"
00:42:47
Nicolle Wallace covers today’s high stakes White House meeting between Trump, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, and other European leaders.
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- [00:00]
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- [01:04]
Malcolm Turnbull
The next steps ahead are the more complicated ones. Now the path is open. You opened it last Friday. But now the way is open for complicated negotiations. And to be honest, we all would like to see a ceasefire. The latest from the next meeting on. I can't imagine that the next meeting would took place without a cease fire. So let's work on that and let's try to put pressure on Russia.
- [01:38]
Nicole Wallace
Hi again everyone. It's now 5 o' clock in the east where we are witnessing together an historic summit of world leaders coming together in the hopes of bringing about an end to the years long war in Ukraine. A multilateral meeting between Donald Trump, Ukrainian President Zelensky and several European leaders is currently underway at the White House right now. But before the leaders went behind closed doors, we heard that pointed message about a ceasefire from Germany's Prime Minister Friedrich a plea to reach a ceasefire very soon before another meeting to which Donald Trump responded, we don't need that. Trump did announce that the US Would help with Ukraine's security and that he would call Vladimir Putin to discuss everything that happened today and to hopefully set up a trilateral meeting with himself, the Russian President and President Zelensky as the next step. But as we digest some of what we just saw, to keep in mind that today's meeting was preceded by a rolling out of a literal red carpet and blue stage for Putin on American soil on Friday where no ceasefire agreement was reached. And notably, Donald Trump went from being for a ceasefire to indifferent to a ceasefire. As for how that was received by our friends on the other side of the Atlantic in an interview With German broadcaster ARD on Saturday, Merz said that Trump moved, quote, within the line we discussed together. And I think that is good progress from last night, despite the one or two disturbing images we may have seen, end quote. But then he noted, quote, the press in Russia is jubilant. A little less would have been enough, end quote. Marco Mikkelsen, the Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the Estonian Parliament, said on social media that Friday's meeting, quote, was no surprise. Putin wanted to humiliate the United States and he succeeded, end quote. Ahead of his appearance at the White House today, French President Emmanuel Macron made sure to underscore the need for strength against Putin. He said yesterday this, quote, if we are weak with Russia today, we'll be preparing the conflicts of tomorrow. And they will impact the Ukrainians and make no mistake, they can impact us, too. We're keeping an eye on the White House. We'll let you know when that meeting ends. But to take stock of all that we have lived through since Friday, this hour I'll be joined by three powerhouse guests, each hitting on different perspectives of this same story. Former Principal Deputy Director of National Intelligence Sue Gordon will be here. Former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations Susan Rice will be here. And we start the hour of former Prime Minister of Australia Malcolm Turnbull, who has in the past spoken about Donald Trump's admiration for and fawning over Vladimir Putin in meetings with world leaders. And now very publicly, former Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull. Thank you for being here.
- [04:33]
Malcolm Turnbull
Great to be with you.
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Nicole Wallace
What your observations I think brought maybe out of the shadows or out of the closed door meetings, was what the world saw on Friday, the fawning, the affinity and the affection, which is a perfect partner to the pronouncements and the policy. But I wonder if having shared what you've shared, if anything you saw Friday in Alaska surprised you.
- [05:03]
Malcolm Turnbull
Well, no, look, it was very disappointing. President Trump went to Alaska saying that there must be a ceasefire and if Russia did not agree to that, there would be severe consequences. And, you know, after meeting with Putin, he changed his mind. Excuse me. And it said that there should, there didn't need to be a ceasefire and that should just be a, you know, the war should continue effectively until there was keep fighting until there was a peace settlement. So, you know, Putin turned him around. He, look, he does admire Putin, he likes Putin, he's very fond of him. You can see that. That's not a secret. And he seems to have a better relationship with Putin than he does with any other world leader. Now, what we've all been praying for, Nicole, is that at some point the scales will fall from Donald Trump's eyes and he'll work out that Putin is not his friend. But he does. The affinity is very real. And he feels, for example, that he and Putin were both equal victims of the, what he calls the Russia, Russia, Russia hoax. So they have this bond. And therein lies the problem. Because the answer to this, the role America can play with this conflict, is to put real pressure on Russia to back down. But unless it's prepared to do so, the only leverage, if Trump is not prepared to use his leverage against Russia, then he uses his leverage against Ukraine, which is effectively pushing Ukraine into a, you know, into effectively a concession, a surrender, a defeat.
- [06:51]
Nicole Wallace
Mr. Prime Minister, there's a lot of effort in this country to analyze and understand the emotional bond that Donald Trump has with his base of voters, who for them, nothing is a bridge too far. Not a deadly insurrection at the Nation's capital, not 34 felonies convictions, not incompetent management of a deadly pandemic. The bond is visceral. And I wonder if the Europeans have somewhat of a similar mission in trying to understand Trump's bond with Putin, because unlike in the first term, Putin now seems to revel in humiliating Trump. I mean, there was nothing about Friday that made Trump look good. Trump looked like the subservient party and Putin looked dominant, being restored to polite society after an illegal invasion and a heinous war. And the war crimes in Bucha. He's a wanted war criminal by the icc. I wonder how our allies and how the leaders who are there today should or are approaching Donald Trump's seeming fact immune bond with Putin.
- [08:06]
Malcolm Turnbull
Well, everyone is trying to go on a charm offensive with Trump. And so they are being as respectful, constantly thanking him, flattering him. They're doing all of those things. And, you know, you look around that table, those European leaders, you know, there are some very, very experienced, very charming, very persuasive people there, but none of them seem to have been able to strike up the rapport with Trump that Vladimir Putin has. So it is, look, it's almost impossible to explain, but the problem is that if Putin gets what he wants, Ukraine will simply be the first step into the re establishment of the Soviet empire. And the next, you know, the next dishes on the menu will obviously be the Baltic states, the three Baltic states, and they're NATO members. So, you know, what is, what's Trump going to do about that? So this is a, it's a baffling situation, Nicole, because, you know, you can understand why Trump was impressed with Putin in his first term, but Putin has, in effect, unmasked himself. I mean, he has invaded Ukraine, he's undertaken this terrible war, a war that is horrifying everyone, including the first lady, Melania Trump, who's pleading with him to stop the killing. But the leverage. Trump does have real leverage on Russia. He said he does, but so far he is not prepared to use it. And until he does, Putin is going to keep going because he thinks he's winning.
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Nicole Wallace
Is he?
- [10:04]
Malcolm Turnbull
Well, you. On the battlefield, it appears to be gaining, but it is staggeringly expensive, both in lives and, you know, in blood and treasure, as they say. But he's, you know, he's. It is a much bigger. It's a much bigger economy than Ukraine. And unless Ukraine is provided with additional armaments, you know, Western, particularly American, capabilities, they're going to struggle. And you can imagine the morale. Imagine being a Ukrainian soldier in the front line, knowing that the democracies with which you have identified and which you aspire to be a part of and be partners with are not able to defend you. I mean, the Europe, you know, the. Look, a lot of what Trump says about the Europeans is right. You know, just because Trump says something doesn't mean it's wrong. The Europeans have neglected their defence. It is crazy, as the, you know, the Prime Minister of Poland, Donald Tusk, often says that 500 million Europeans need 330 million Americans to defend them against themselves, against 140 million Russians. But, you know, you can't live your life backwards. So, yes, the Europeans have to rearm. Yes, they have to be able to defend themselves. Yes, they can defend themselves against Russia, but they can't do it alone today. And so America has a vital, singular responsibility here. And if it doesn't step up to push Putin back, the consequence will be that his aggression will be rewarded and he will then be looking, you know, the crocodile will be looking for its next meal.
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Nicole Wallace
You know, one of the things that seems to advantage Trump is the laws of relativity. And of course, relative to the ambush of President Zelenskyy in February, where J.D. vance and Donald Trump seemed to take turns smacking President Zelensky around and enjoying it in front of the cameras. I mean, it was positive. Today was much more civilized. But I wonder where that leaves. Where that leaves the alliance, where that leaves intelligence sharing, something we've talked about before, where that leaves people feeling about America's allegiances and alliances.
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Malcolm Turnbull
Well, America is certainly seen by all of its allies as a less reliable partner, a less reliable ally than it was. But that is not a criticism of America. I mean, Donald Trump has made it very clear that, as has J.D. vance, that they are less to be relied on. I mean, J.D. vance not so long ago praised General de Gaulle, France's president, in the 1960s, for insisting that France retain control over all of its own defence capabilities and in particular, its nuclear deterrent, and for insisting on not being integrated in the NATO military command. Now, that caused a lot of angst to American Presidents Kennedy and Johnson at the time. But, you know, there's Vance saying, you guys should be standing on your own feet. You should not be perpetually vassals of the United States. So, you know, if America's allies feel lonelier and less supported, that's not a bug, that's a feature of the administration. And I think it has a lot of support from the MAGA base who say, why should we keep on solving all the problems of the world? But getting from, let's say it's ideal that the Europeans should be able to defend themselves against Russia, and they certainly have the economic ability to do so if they have the will. But the problem is they can't do that today. And yes, you can set that as a goal, but if the consequence of not being able to push back Putin is that you lose Ukraine and you embolden Putin to then go after the very exposed and difficult to defend Baltic members of NATO, well, you can see all of that potentially leading into a wider conflict and even a nuclear conflict. So this is really a point where Donald Trump has an opportunity to show the strength that he's so attracted to, but to show it against another strong player. See, it's not an act of strength to bully the weak. It's an act of strength to stand up to the strong.
- [14:59]
Nicole Wallace
Well, what's so amazing, I mean, you mentioned the MAGA base and its support for our NATO allies doing more. What's amazing is that it doesn't accept Donald Trump's subservience to anyone, certainly not to the Supreme Court, certainly not to any federal judge, not to any other Republican, not to any other branch of government. But it supports his subservience to Vladimir Putin. And some of our earliest conversations were about why that is. Do you have any theories today as you watched the relationship deepen?
- [15:36]
Malcolm Turnbull
Well, Putin has had. Putin used to have, and possibly still does had support from the, you know, parts of the MAGA base, but more generally from right wing, very conservative people in the west, generally because of he, you know, he, you know, he is very, you know, he's against homosexuality. He's claims to be, you know, for old fashioned conservative values. Those conservative values do not include abstaining from murder and invasion and kidnapping children obviously. But so he's very selective about the conservative values he supports. But he did, he did have some appeal. And there is, you know, there are people who are attracted to the strong man, you know, the tough guy. And so that is a, you know, there's no doubt. And you know, this is, this is one of the challenges. I mean, if you ask what can liberal democracies do to protect themselves against authoritarianism, the answer is they have to deliver. Because if you're not delivering on health, on education, on public safety, on affordable housing, then you lay yourself open to a strong man, quote unquote, coming along and saying, I alone can fix it. What do you have to lose? Vote for me. And so that's the, you know, the challenge. You know, Ezra Klein's written a good book about this abundance, talking about how liberals have failed in delivering the goods. And you've also had, I mean, referring to another book, you know, another Washingtonian, Edward Luce from the FT has written a very good new biography of Spigny Brzezinski. And you see there in the Brzezinski, Kissinger debates, Brzezinski was a man who believed in freeing the captive nations of Eastern Europe. Kissinger, much more like Trump, believed in spheres of influence. The great powers should have their own spheres of influence and was not at all troubled with the Soviet Union continuing to dominate Eastern Europe because that was his view of the world, was that everything was mediated between great powers. In that case Washington, Moscow and to a lesser extent Beijing. And I think Trump, I know Donald Trump and Henry Kissinger are very different people, but their view of the world is essentially this totally pragmatic, might is right view of the world, which, you know, has absent from it the sort of idealism and the passion for freedom that has always, you know, we would say as an American ally, characterized the best moments of American global leadership well.
- [18:34]
Nicole Wallace
And for now it lacks results. I mean, they're nowhere. And you could argue that after those see themselves as great powers, I'm sure Trump and Putin, they moved the end of the war farther away on Friday. We'll see if they've made advances today. I actually just heard that the meetings have wrapped up, but everyone is staying in town, so perhaps that's a good sign. Former Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull, we love getting to talk to you. Thank you so much for starting us off on this really important, historic day. When we come back, we'll have reaction to that news and to Donald Trump's meeting with President Zelensky and European leaders today from a top intelligence official from Donald Trump's first term. Former Principal Deputy Director of National Intelligence Sue Gordon will be here. We will also be joined this hour by former National Security adviser, former UN Ambassador for President Obama, Susan Rice. Deadline Whitehouse continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere today.
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Malcolm Turnbull
Hello.
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Susan Rice
Nice try.
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Malcolm Turnbull
I need a coffee.
- [20:15]
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- [21:07]
Donald Trump
Look, the war is going to end. When it ends, I can't tell you, but the war is going to end. And this gentleman wants it to end. And Vladimir Putin wants it to end. I think the whole world is tired of it and we're going to get it ended.
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Nicole Wallace
That was Donald Trump today sitting in the Oval Office with Ukrainian President Zelensky for the first time since their disastrous face to face in February, claiming that Vladimir really wants to end the war he started and seemed to accelerate after his meeting with Donald Trump in Alaska. Joining our coverage is former Principal Deputy Director of National Intelligence Sue Gordon. Sue, it's wonderful to see you. Thank you for being here.
- [21:50]
Sue Gordon
You bet. Great to see you, too. Big day.
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Nicole Wallace
What would you have sort of observed and assessed and told Donald Trump if you were in your old role after the Russian attacks in Ukraine, after the summit in Anchorage, Alaska?
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Sue Gordon
I think what I would have said. What data do you have that suggests that Vladimir Putin has any intention of doing anything other than he has said he was going to do? I'm going to say for the last decade, for the last six years, for the last 24 hours. I mean, there I. And then the second thing I would have said to him is, you have created this opportunity. The only way it is going to result in the peace you say you crave is for us to find a way to put pressure on. On Russia to be able to make a different decision than their preference.
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Nicole Wallace
And do you see any sign that any pressure has been put on Russia?
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Sue Gordon
No. I see aspiration. I see a president that wants to be able to say he has his seventh peace deal. I think. I think he is listening. I think there's a false narrative that there's some choice between people who want peace and people who don't, people who like war and people who don't. Everyone wants this to end. There isn't a party in the world that wants peace. There are just some realistic features to getting something that is lasting, that is more than just a sound bite that says we have it. So that's. That's one. And I think. I think the President would like. Would like peace. Not just because he said he could do it, not just because he thinks it might get him the Nobel Peace Prize.
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Nicole Wallace
But.
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Sue Gordon
But I think he does. I think it is a distraction. And I've said this before, he does not like needless killing. I've been in the room with him. That is not something that is comfortable for him. All that being said, Nicole, he basically walked into Alaska saying he was mad at Putin and he was expecting him to do a ceasefire or else he'd give him what for. And he walked out with, essentially, Putin's talking points. Now, he doesn't couch in the same terms of we need to resolve the root cause, but he did walk out saying, I don't know that we need a ceasefire. We can go directly to peace with an indeterminate timeframe. Someone's going to have to trade some land. Well, that's insane. Why is that a given then? Yes, we'll have some kind of security agreement. I think he walked in like a tough guy. He walked out with their talking points. And I think today's meeting was so careful. I think Trump was very care. The President was very careful to not deviate from those points. He said some nice, happy to glad things about security guarantees, but if you listen to him, they aren't predicated on any conditions. So it's a little bit thin gruel. He rebuffed several times any notion of a ceasefire and Chancellor Mertz was very strong on that and the President wasn't having anything of that. And he brought up the issue of land. And so if you think about was pleasant, he was careful. He did not counter what he walked out of Alaska with and he stayed with pretty much those talking points.
- [26:01]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah, I mean, let me just challenge you on one narrow thing if I dare. He didn't repeat the word root causes, but he basically championed Putin's position that you have to deal with the root causes, which is land. I mean, I said this on Friday. Trump's not talking about, well, if Putin doesn't stop, we're going to entertain NATO. I mean, just put aside what is right and what is just as a sheer negotiation. It was an absolute face plant. If you want to be strong to Putin because you love him or hate him. He didn't, he didn't even pretend to be strong. I mean, how do you assess all the, all the public weakness.
- [26:45]
Sue Gordon
Because he's a businessman trying to use leverage to get a deal, not a world leader who understands the reality of geopolitics or any consequence of history and choices. He over believes in himself and he just doesn't have the tools to deliver difficult outcomes. And I'll tell you, getting this done in this circumstance is a difficult outcome. So I agree with you, he didn't use the word root cause. But as I said, he walked out with Putin's talking points. He couched him in his terms. He wrapped him around peace. And we, we wanted the killing to stop. But if you take the peace parts, he said them all and the European leaders have figured out they need Trump and they can't offend him. So they were much like in a cabinet meeting, almost genuflecting. But in each person there was a mention of pieces that have to be done before they will get done. So there's a careful meeting. It was still Putin's talking points. They'll have another meeting. I'm not overly impressed with the promise of security agreements because there is no condition against which those agreements will be made. Why is he not stronger man? Because strength is a lot more than words.
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Nicole Wallace
Yeah, yeah, I Mean, let me put it the other way, too. Like, what hasn't Putin achieved and what has Zelensky achieved?
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Sue Gordon
There is nothing that Putin hasn't achieved. And he did a great job spinning up the President on the issue, on the issue of election insecurity and played to his. His lie about it was rigged, it was a hoax, all that. And let's be clear about who Vladimir Putin is. He's an intelligence officer. He is a careful, studied, practiced professional who knows exactly what he's doing and that words matter. And he went in prepared and got what he sought. He hasn't lost anything. He hasn't lost anything. And he's also then created havoc in the United States by now. The President is now tweeting about a constitutional ability. He doesn't have mail in votings. Zelensky, he's in a tough spot. I think the good things he got out of not having another shouting match or another repeat of the last overloshovic session, Oval session was I think, maybe, but who would trust it? The United States said that we would participate in any security agreements. I think he said that we would work with Europe because each one of those leaders did a different version of saying, we can't do it without you. Yet's another meeting. But I'll tell you what. Do you have any doubt that there's going to be more bombing tonight? No, I don't either. We basically put a nice face on Putin's talking points with the promise of nebulous outcome with no conditions stated for Zelensky and the European leaders. I think what they got is the opportunity to have another meeting to see if we can't do it. But I don't know how it turns around that the President finds the strength to put the pressure that needs to be put in order for President Putin to change his plans. Can I just. Marco Rubio said something on Sunday that I just can't abide. He said that no one in the United States life will be different if the war goes on. The notion that we consider ourselves so isolated and so smugly powerful that the world could endure a strong man taking the land of a sovereign nation just because he wanted it and we stood by and let it happen. And if I'm in Taiwan right now, I'm wondering what's going to happen there. This notion that this isn't an interest for the United States people, I think fundamentally misunderstands how connected we all really.
- [31:52]
Nicole Wallace
Are and our history. I mean, proud military families are proud of their grandparents service, a grandmother who was a nurse in some instances, if it was World War II or, or grandfather who fought. I mean, it just, it totally. Marco Rubio seeks to totally erase our history as the good guys. From Trump, we're all braced for it. I think in some ways those of us who've been watching closely and you who lived it. But from Marco Rubio, it's galling. Sue Gordon, we're gonna need you. I'm glad you're up and fighting for him. We're gonna need you. My friend, thank you for joining us today so much.
- [32:34]
Sue Gordon
Keep it up, Nicole.
- [32:36]
Nicole Wallace
Thank you, my friend. Ahead for us, when Donald Trump berated President Zelensky in the Oval Office back in February. Our next guest joined us the day it happened and said it was unquestionably a setup. We'll ask her once again, former national Security advisor, UN Ambassador Susan Rice, where we stand as a country today. She'll be our guest after a very short break. Don't go anywhere.
- [33:00]
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- [33:30]
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- [34:17]
Nicole Wallace
The last time President Zelensky was inside the Oval Office seeking peace and security guarantees for the people of Ukraine and for Europe, he was attacked and criticized by Donald Trump. When that happened, our next guest was here to call it out. She called it an embarrassing setup by Donald Trump to play to his base and to show loyalty to Russian President Vladimir Putin. We are so happy to have her back with us today. To talk about today's Oval Office goings ons, former United States ambassador to the United nations former national security adviser to President Barack Obama. Ambassador Susan Rice is here. Thank you so much for being here.
- [34:53]
Susan Rice
Great to be with you, Nicole.
- [34:55]
Nicole Wallace
I grabbed my phone because this isn't a setup, but I heard in my ear that the New York Times has just reported that Donald Trump left this meeting to call Vladimir Putin amid the goings ons. And I just wonder, again, we'll look for more reporting on that and I'll share it as soon as I have it. But what do you, what do you make of that? There was no reporting that he left the Anchorage summit with Putin to call Zelensky. What does this look like to you from the outside?
- [35:27]
Susan Rice
Well, Nicole, it's hard to be sure. He did indicate. Trump indicated earlier today that he intended to call Putin after the meeting with the Europeans in Zelensky. The fact that he interrupted the meeting to call him is a bit of a twist. It may suggest that he was trying to confirm a perspective or position that he thought he heard from Putin. It may suggest that there was some proposal he wanted to float by Putin. I don't know. But what I would say is important and concerning, although not surprising, is that today the Russian Foreign Ministry put out a statement pouring buckets and buckets of cold water on the whole question of security guarantees, which was allegedly the only positive point to come out of the Alaska fiasco. And the Russian Foreign Ministry completely ruled out any notion of Western personnel, Western forces, NATO member countries on the ground in Ukraine as part of any potential security guarantee, of course, without which there is no guarantee, even if one could be believed if given. So I wonder, maybe that was one of the things that Trump was calling Putin about. But we'll have to wait and see and learn. As the reporting continues, Donald Trump versus.
- [36:56]
Nicole Wallace
Donald Trump seems like the safest frame, right, to look at all this through for Ukraine and for those of us trying to cover it. And Donald Trump said publicly before cameras multiple times that a ceasefire was a condition and that there would be, quote, consequences. That's Donald Trump's word. And he said it so many times, up to and including on the tarmac where the meeting happened, in an interview with Bret Baer aboard Air Force One. And then after whatever happened with him and Vladimir Putin, he was no longer for what he had publicly been for in a ceasefire. Or again, we're outside looking in. What is your assessment about why that would be other than Putin demanding it?
- [37:42]
Susan Rice
Well, I think it's because Putin demanded it and Trump quickly ascertained that he wasn't gonna get a ceasefire out of Putin. And Trump always likes to put a positive spin on his own work, and even a dishonest spin in some instances, frequently. And so I think that he had said for weeks, if not months, that a ceasefire immediately was necessary and that that was what he sought in Alaska. And if he didn't get it, he was going to be very angry and there were going to be severe consequences. And he melted like a puddle of ice in the Alaska sunshine. I don't know if Putin just refused or if he manipulated him in some way, or Trump, as some people say, responds to the last person he spoke to. I don't know what justifies that. But here we are, days later, and even today, with Mertz and Macron of Germany and France, respectively, underscoring the necessity of a ceasefire to stop the killing before any serious peace negotiations can proceed. Trump refused to embrace that. He said, yeah, a ceasefire would be nice, like to see the killing stop, but I don't think it's necessary, and I haven't insisted on it in any of my other negotiations. Well, a ceasefire is essential because the Russians have escalated the killing in the last six months, seven months under Donald Trump. And, you know, Trump likes to say the war never would have happened if he had been president. Well, the war is at its most intense level while he is president. And without a ceasefire, it's going to continue to be. We can be confident of that.
- [39:33]
Nicole Wallace
I want to ask you about so much more that was said in Anchorage, and today I have to sneak in a quick break. We stick around through the other side. We'll be right back with Ambassador Susan Rice. Don't go anywhere.
- [39:49]
Donald Trump
I've always had a fantastic relationship with President Putin, with Vladimir. We had many, many tough meetings, good meetings. We were interfered with by the Russia, Russia, Russia hoax. That made it a little bit tougher to deal with, but he understood it. He's seen it all. But we had to put up with the Russia, Russia, Russia hoax. He knew it was a hoax, and I knew it was a hoax.
- [40:17]
Nicole Wallace
We're back with Ambassador Susan Rice. It's incredible how he still talks about Putin and about everything they've been through together. And when you look at everything that Putin got out of this trip on Friday, and so far, very little that America or Ukraine or our allies got. What do you make? I mean, how do you add up? Trump's talking about the Russia hoax with Marco Rubio and his cabinet, who assessed that it wasn't a hoax at all, that Russia interfered in 2016. What do you hear when you hear him say that in an 11 1/2 minute news conference.
- [40:57]
Susan Rice
I mean, really, Nicole, it's pathetic. It's been clearly and repeatedly established, including by the bipartisan Senate Intelligence Committee led by Marco Rubio, that Russia interfered in the 2016 election by disinformation campaigns, by social media efforts, by all sorts of means, short of manipulating the actual vote. And that's just a fact. Now, obviously Donald Trump doesn't like that fact. He doesn't like the fact that the intelligence community and the Senate bipartisan Intelligence Committee assessed that this interference was intended to not only sow distrust in our democracy, but to benefit Donald Trump. But all of that really is beside the point. We are in 2025 and Donald Trump professes to be committed to trying to bring peace to Ukraine in the wake of Russia's brutal years long invasion. And rather than put the sort of pressure on Putin and Russia that is necessary to move Putin towards peace, stronger sanctions, secondary sanctions on the major suppliers of Russia as well as the purchasers of Russian oil and gas, giving Ukraine the military hardware in the quantities with the reliability that it needs to strengthen its position on the battlefield. Instead of doing the things that would strengthen the Ukrainian, Western NATO, US partnership on their side of the table against Putin, he is rolling out the red carpet, doing military flyovers, giving him a ride in the presidential limousine and getting none of what he went to Alaska to get. No ceasefire, no imposition of tough consequences and sanctions. It was, as I said earlier, it was just melting. And it's very worrying, it's very discouraging and it calls into question, you know, the President's willingness and ability to achieve a just peace in Ukraine.
- [43:15]
Nicole Wallace
And to come out today against voting machines and mail in voting doesn't feel accidental either. What do you make of that?
- [43:23]
Susan Rice
Well, you know, Trump runs hot and cold on mail in voting. He didn't like it in one election and then he liked it in the next election and he apparently used mail in voting and in 2024. But Putin got to him and did, as Sue Gordon, your previous guest, said, the KGB two step of flattering him and saying to him what he wanted to hear. And now he's on again about mail in voting. Some 30 countries in the world have mail in voting and guess which one is one of them? Russia. So this is garbage. Seriously, this is garbage. But it is another way for not only for the President Trump to try to distract, but for him to undermine the potential for a free and fair election in 2026. He's doing it through multiple means And I think we have to view this as another attempt. It runs flatly against the Constitution of the United States. So it's hard to see how it can prevail. But it's yet another attempt to, to tilt the playing field in his favor and in favor of House and Senate Republicans when their policies and their one big ugly bill are just hugely, hugely.
- [44:42]
Nicole Wallace
Unpopular, like so unpopular even they seem to know it.
- [44:46]
Susan Rice
They seem to know it because it's a huge giveaway for the rich on the backs of working American families. It does whole horrible damage to Americans health care, their ability to get the food assistance they need and to so many other everyday priorities that Americans have. And all to line the pockets of the president and his richest cronies at the highest end of the income spectrum.
- [45:14]
Nicole Wallace
Ambassador Susan Rice, it's always a pleasure to get to talk to you. Thank you so much for joining us today.
- [45:20]
Susan Rice
Good to be with you.
- [45:22]
Nicole Wallace
One more break. We'll be right back.
- [45:26]
Malcolm Turnbull
This is not policymaking. This is vandalism. And that's part of what makes it so upsetting. It's not that they have some set of overarching goals. They are cavalier and glib about institutions they benefit from that provide data they benefit from that helps us understand the economy, understand our world. But in decadence, in cruelty, in wanting to own the libs, they are doing vandalism.
- [45:51]
Nicole Wallace
That was Pod Save America's Jon Lovett. He was extraordinary. He's channeling right there. I think what a lot of us feel like we're watching. But he does it better than just about anyone I've heard do it. He is my guest this week on the newest episode of the Best People podcast. His analysis is so spot on, not just about Donald Trump, but about what Democrats and the rest of us should be doing about the long shadow cast by the Jeffrey Epstein story over Donald Trump and the MAGA movement. If you want to listen, scan the QR code on your screen to listen to the whole thing or download this week's episode. Wherever you get your podcasts, quick break for us. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes today. We are grateful.