“Exclusive: James Comey’s first post-indictment interview”

Summary

---

Deadline: White House

Episode: "Exclusive: James Comey’s first post-indictment interview"
Host: Nicolle Wallace
Date: May 11, 2026

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, Nicolle Wallace hosts former FBI Director James Comey for his first interview since his second federal indictment under Donald Trump’s Department of Justice. The conversation centers on the charges against Comey, the impact on the Department of Justice (DOJ) and his family, the deeper consequences for American democracy, and reflections from Comey's new novel, Red Verdict. The episode explores the broader landscape of political retribution, institutional resilience, and personal resolve in the face of what many see as unprecedented attacks on the rule of law.

---

Major Discussion Points & Insights

1. Comey's Latest Indictment & the Shells Post

• Context: One year prior, Comey posted a picture of seashells spelling “8647” on a North Carolina beach, which critics alleged was coded as a threat towards Trump ("86" meaning "eliminate," "47" referring to the 47th President).
• Nature of New Charges: Comey faces his second indictment for “knowingly and willfully making a threat to take the life of and to inflict bodily harm on the president” and for allegedly transmitting this threat via interstate commerce.
• Both Comey and independent legal commentators widely consider the charges to be unsubstantial and politicized.

“Nothing has changed with me. I’m still innocent, I’m still not afraid, and I still believe in the independent federal judiciary.”
— Jim Comey (00:52)

2. Fallout at the DOJ

• The DOJ, especially the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Eastern Virginia, is described as “hollowed out” after purges and resignations linked to the pressure to prosecute Trump critics.
• Ongoing disarray is hampering significant cases and leaving the office short-staffed.

"More than a half dozen prosecutors have been demoted or pushed out ... major cases, including one involving a terrorist attack ... have been hobbled by the turmoil."
— Nicolle Wallace quoting The Washington Post (04:32)

3. Personal Impact on Comey and His Family

• Comey’s daughter and son-in-law (both former DOJ prosecutors) lost their positions due to association with him.
• The emotional burden is significant, but the family remains proud and resolute.

“It’s bad to be indicted. It’s bad when someone you love is indicted ... but they accept that. They’re proud that I act the way I do.”
— Jim Comey (05:40)

4. Culture Shift in the DOJ and Trump’s Retaliatory Focus

• Wallace and Comey discuss the transformation of the DOJ under Trump—describing the quest for staff willing to serve his personal agendas.
• The legal “bottom of the barrel” analogy illustrates the erosion of institutional standards.

“Donald Trump has a bottomless desire to gain revenge against those who’ve criticized him.”
— Jim Comey (07:57)

5. Comey’s Defense Strategy & Faith in the Judiciary

• Comey defers specifics on legal strategy, citing a commitment to court rules and his faith in the independent federal judiciary.

“I am not only not guilty, I am innocent … I believe in the independent federal judiciary.”
— Jim Comey (09:26)

• The judiciary is described as the main, if not only, remaining reliable pillar keeping American democracy balanced.

"It’s tough act to balance on one leg. But I believe the federal judges can ... we’ll get another leg.”
— Jim Comey (10:01, 10:39)

6. Legal Community Backlash and Unlikely Allies

• Noteworthy conservative legal figures (Jonathan Turley, Andy McCarthy) have denounced the case against Comey.

"Makes you a little nervous … I don’t know what he means by crawling inside one of my shells, but it's important that people speak in an honest, open way about these things."
— Jim Comey (11:30, 11:39)

7. The Chilling Effect on Past and Current Officials

• Wallace presses on the silence of figures like Merrick Garland, Lisa Monaco, Chris Wray—Comey expresses hope their silence is not due to fear and stresses the need for vocal opposition from all sides.

“Everybody who has a voice ought to be speaking up ... I am going to continue to speak up because I have grandchildren ... I want them to know what Pop did during this period.”
— Jim Comey (12:53)

8. Perpetual Pursuit & Retributive Politics

• Comey discusses the likelihood of future indictments and the relentless nature of Trump's personal pursuit.

"Donald Trump wakes up at three in the morning thinking about me. I do not. The vice reverse does not happen."
— Jim Comey (13:28)

9. Vindictive Prosecution as a Threat to Rule of Law

• The legal doctrine of vindictive prosecution is explained as a constitutional safeguard—Comey’s legal team attempted to use it previously and may again.

"It’s a violation of the Constitution for a federal prosecutor to come after a defendant for ... their exercise of First Amendment rights."
— Jim Comey (19:26)

10. Wider Consequences for Democracy & Business

• Comey puzzles over why industry leaders are not more vocal in defense of rule of law given their collective stake in a stable democracy.
• Wallace and Comey worry publicly about national numbness and shifting standards.

“There’s a real threat, real risk that we will all become numb to this, which has happened ... over the last eight years.”
— Jim Comey (26:05, 26:20)

11. Future of the DOJ and Country

• Comey remains optimistic about the long-term resilience of American institutions, comparing these times to post-Watergate and expressing hope for eventual recovery.

“I have great faith in this country … something remarkable is going to happen in two and a half years. People are going to flood back in, great people, and we will have the opportunity ... to build it in a healthier way.”
— Jim Comey (26:38)

12. Reflections from Comey’s Novel and Real-Life Parallels

• Comey discusses how characters in his writing embody the integrity he’s seen at the DOJ.
• The current climate is described as under “siege,” with dedicated professionals forced out or operating under threat.

“It gives me a chance to show people this is what it’s really like inside these organizations … but they’re under siege.”
— Jim Comey (34:45, 35:35)

13. Personal Resolve & Final Message

• Comey is “not afraid,” credits his understanding of the system, and urges listeners to speak out and vote as a means of defending democracy.

"Stand up and speak. Stand up most of all and vote this fall. Because just saying this isn’t who we are … doesn’t matter unless you vote."
— Jim Comey (34:06)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On DOJ Purges:
  “Good people sacrificing their careers to do the right thing. I’m inspired by that. But I feel awful that they have to do it.” — Jim Comey (05:13)
• On Family Impact:
  “My daughter was a superstar prosecutor ... fired only because she has my last name. Stupid. Immoral. Illegal, in my view, and painful.” — Jim Comey (06:17)
• On Trump's Retaliatory Agenda:
  “Donald Trump continuing to move through people until he finds those who will literally do whatever he says.” — Jim Comey (07:43)
• On Legal Defense:
  "I'm not only not guilty, I am innocent and we will pursue this fully." — Jim Comey (09:26)
• On the Rule of Law:
  "It is what separates us from authoritarian regimes...It's about understanding facts and treating people equally so we can achieve justice." — Jim Comey (24:02)
• On Numbness to Outrage:
  "It's a bad thing that it's happening at all ... there's a real threat, real risk that we will all become numb to this." — Jim Comey (26:20)
• On the Meaning of His Original 'Sin':
  “My original sin was doing that which any FBI director would have done... and then by speaking out after I got fired and honestly about what he is and the threat he is to the rule of law, I just made it an endless, endless pursuit by him for retribution.” — Jim Comey (22:39)
• On Fear:
  “Am I scared? I am not. Because I know the system. I know me. I know the facts. I know my lawyers. I know judges.” — Jim Comey (33:22)
• On Civic Responsibility:
  "Decide this is not who we are and do not become numb to it. Stand up and speak. Stand up most of all and vote this fall." — Jim Comey (34:06)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:52 — Comey's first post-indictment public statement
• 04:00 — DOJ turmoil and prosecutorial exodus
• 05:13–06:17 — Personal and family impact
• 09:46–10:39 — Comey on faith in the judiciary as democracy’s last line
• 11:30 — Comey acknowledges right-wing legal defenders
• 13:28 — Trump's obsession and perpetual pursuit of Comey
• 19:26 — Explanation of vindictive prosecution
• 24:02 — Authoritarian risk of weaponized DOJ
• 26:05–26:38 — Numbness, risk, and institutional hope
• 33:22 — Comey on fear and the DOJ/FBI under siege
• 34:06 — Message to listeners: speak up and vote
• 35:35 — Cultural changes in the DOJ and the “go bag” mentality

---

Tone & Language

The conversation is serious, unwaveringly candid, at times grim, but ultimately resilient. Wallace’s questioning is persistent but empathetic, and Comey’s answers convey a mix of legal precision, moral concern, and personal fortitude. Both frequently underscore the danger of normalization, the vital role of institutional backbone, and their hope for a future course correction.

---

Conclusion

This episode offers a highly personal and substantive view inside one of the most consequential political-legal dramas of the Trump presidency. It exposes the real-world effects on individuals, institutions, and democracy while affirming the importance of civic vigilance and judicial independence. It’s a striking snapshot of accountability, resistance, and hope in an era of fierce political division.

---

Transcript

[Thumbtack Advertiser]

Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start. Thumbtack knows homes so you don't have to don't know the difference between matte paint, finish and satin or what that clunking sound from your dryer is. With Thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro, you just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see price estimates and read reviews all on the app. Download.

[SimpliSafe Advertiser]

Today in the US there's a break in every 26 seconds. But when intruders step near SimpliSafe, home security steps up.

[Jim Comey]

Stop. This is Simplisafe. Police are on the way.

[SimpliSafe Advertiser]

Using AI alerts, US based live agents help deter break ins. SimpliSafe no long term contracts. Save 50% on your new system with professional monitoring at SimpliSafe.com sxm or with promo code sxm Outdoor deterrence requires a

[SimpliSafe Legal Disclaimer]

SimpliSafe Active Guard Outdoor Protection Plan starting at $49.99 a month. Visit SimpliSafe.com licenses for alarm license information. Tennessee 2012

[Jim Comey]

well, they're back this time about a picture of seashells on a North Carolina beach a year ago. And this won't be the end of it. But nothing has changed with me. I'm still innocent, I'm still not afraid, and I still believe in the independent federal judiciary. So let's go.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

This won't be the end of it. Hi again everybody. It's now five o'. Clock. It was almost exactly one year ago the former director of the FBI, Jim Comey, was on this program at this table talking about that picture of seashells that he came across on a walk on the beach. They spell out 8647. And he's continuing to stand by what he told us then, that at the time he didn't know there was any violent interpretation behind that commonly used restaurant term 86, and that he did not at any point intend for his post to be perceived that way, and certainly not for it to be viewed as a call for the assassination of number 47. But he deleted the post when he heard that those sorts of things were being alleged, including by Donald Trump and members of his Cabinet. Fast forward to right now with Donald Trump's Department of Justice eager to deliver on Trump's wish to prosecute his critics. Jim Comey is facing his second indictment from the Trump Justice Department in the last year. This latest one over that picture we just had up on charges that he was, quote, knowingly and willfully making a threat to take the life of and to inflict bodily, bodily harm on the president. And second, that he knowingly and willfully transmitted in interstate commerce a threat to kill the president. The federal judge has set a date for his trial of July 15. The case is so weak and far fetched that as we've reported on this program, even some of Donald Trump's staunchest legal allies have decried it as an unconstitutional attack. On on Free Press there was this from Fox News commentator Jonathan Turley, quote, I would prefer to crawl into one of Comey's conversant shells and write a column supporting him. However, here we are. The fact is that I believe that this indictment is facially unconstitutional absent some unknown new facts. End quote. Another Fox News fixture, Andy McCarthy, wrote this in the National Review this weekend. Quote, Nobody doubts that 47 refers to Trump, the 47th president of the United States. The question is what 86 means. On that score, Acting AG Todd Blanche is flailing. The term, as we shall see, is ambiguous and most commonly understood to be nonviolent. Countless others continue to go uncharged for the same conduct. This all out effort to target Trump's former FBI director is causing massive turmoil in places we can always see inside the Department of Justice. On that, the Washington Post writes this, quote, more than a half dozen prosecutors have been demoted or pushed out of the U.S. attorney's office for the Eastern District of Virginia due to fallout from the Justice Department's push to prosecute former FBI Director Jim Comey, leaving a key prosecutorial office understaffed and weakened. Other prosecutors have voluntarily decamped or scrambled to find new jobs, fearful they could be asked to work on cases that violate their principles. That's according to 10 current and former prosecutors familiar with the office in the case. Major cases, including one involving a terrorist attack in Afghanistan, have been hobbled by the turmoil. Washington Post adds this quote, as the Justice Department gears up for the second prosecution of Comey, the costs to the department of the president's crusade are mounting. The shockwaves rippling through the Justice Department underline the high price of the President's single minded pursuit of his adversaries to its personnel, resources and mission. That is where we begin the hour. Joining us for his first interview since he was indicted by the Trump Justice Department for a second time, former director of the FBI Jim Comey. His new book, Red Verdict, is his fourth novel. It's out tomorrow. I finished it this afternoon. We're going to talk about it. You dedicate it, though, to the men and women I just reported on that. The Washington Post reports on the men and women who've either been purged from or have left the Department of Justice.

[Jim Comey]

Yeah, there's a lot of pain in the department right now. Good people sacrificing their careers to do the right thing. I'm inspired by that. But I feel awful that they have to do it. And there are so many other good ones hanging on, trying not to have to leave the department. It's a time of pain and loss for a lot of good people. That's why I talked about them in my dedication and the acknowledgments.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

What is your family's pain like right now?

[Jim Comey]

Look, it's bad to be indicted. It's bad when someone you love is indicted. But they've kind of gotten used to the fact that because I've been a critic of Donald Trump, I'm a target. I'm sure John Brennan's family feels that way, Jim Clapper's family and lots of others. There's a cost to speaking up in this strange era, awful era we're in now. And I think they accept that. I think they're proud that I act the way I do. I'm not going to be quiet. I'm going to continue to speak about what I believe. But of course, it's a burden for a family. That, to me, is a part that I regret. But they're strong people.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

You had other family members, though, serving in the department, your daughter and your son in law, right?

[Jim Comey]

My daughter was a superstar prosecutor in the Southern District of New York and was fired only because she has my last name. That's stupid. That's immoral. That's illegal in my view, and painful. She'll be okay. I mean, she got a job at a law firm, and someday I hope she'll go back to the Department of Justice. My son in law, who was the deputy Chief of National Security at that Virginia U.S. attorney's office, quit the day they first indicted me. Also. Just a tragedy to have that apolitical talent leave the department. God willing, he'll be back someday. But it both tells you the quality of the people that this organization typically has and the cost with Donald Trump at the top.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

Do you know Todd Blanche? Did you ever run in the same stmy circles?

[Jim Comey]

I don't. I think he might have been a paralegal when I was the U.S. attorney there, but I don't know. Not saying that to be facetious. You started out as a paralegal, which is an important role, but you don't have much to do with the U.S. attorney?

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

I ask because I went back and looked, and Donald Trump first used Twitter to call for your prosecution in 2017 or 18, and some combination of Don McGahn, then the White House counsel, Jeff Sessions, then the US attorney, Bill Barr, who came next. There was one guy in between, and then Pam Bondi, I guess, who allowed this to go forward, but only at great cost to that office, which was essentially hollowed out. The variable isn't Donald Trump's desire to see you prosecuted, it's Todd Blanche. And so I wonder if you think there's anything personal there.

[Jim Comey]

I don't think so. I think it's just Donald Trump continuing to move through people until he finds those who will literally do whatever he says. Maybe he's found that with Mr. Blanche, maybe not. Maybe his standards will be too high, as apparently Pam Bondi's were, which is a bit of a shock.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

Just saying something.

[Jim Comey]

Yeah. And so she's apparently headed for some important private sector job we haven't heard about yet. That may be Mr. Blanche's future, or maybe not, I don't know. But Donald Trump has a bottomless desire to gain revenge against those who've criticized him. And I'm not gonna stop criticizing him because I think that's required if you care about America. And so it will just keep going. If he gets rid of Blanche, he'll try to find someone else. Look at the bottom of every barrel, there are still apples. And so he will find someone to do what he wants to do.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

Do you think that's where we are with Todd Blanche at the bottom of the barrel?

[Jim Comey]

Only time will tell when Pam Bondi, I thought, was not a good fit for the role, and her standards were apparently too high. So we'll see.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

What is it that you are accused

[Jim Comey]

of doing in the current indictment? Communicating, making and communicating a threat to assassinate the President of the United States.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

And what did you actually do? What is your defense?

[Jim Comey]

I'm not going to talk about that because I, as I've said many times, I believe in the independent federal judiciary. And the court rules require that if you're participating in a criminal case, you don't talk about it outside of court. And so we'll have a lot to say in the courtroom. But I want to respect the rules

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

and the court then absent any specifics. I mean, he has said to my colleague, Kristen Welker, that they're not investigating anyone else. Who posted this message 8647 just you. Were you aware that you were under investigation or are you aware of what the other evidence is they have, other than that message, which is on Amazon right now?

[Jim Comey]

For sale Yeah, I hate to stiff arm you, but I'm going to do the same thing. It's very important that we respect and obey the rules of the federal court in North Carolina and everywhere, even if others don't. And so I'm not going to talk about that, except to say, as I said earlier, I am not only not guilty, I am innocent and we will pursue this fully.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

The first time you were indicted, you released a video like that. And you, and I think you said it last time you were on the show, you talked about your faith in the independent judiciary. Do you think that is the only leg standing?

[Jim Comey]

Yes, with the exception of something that John Brennan mentioned in your last segment, that there are good people holding the line in the intelligence community, in the law enforcement community and among federal prosecutors at great risk to themselves. But because of the risk to themselves, it's not a reliable leg. The federal judges are a reliable leg, no matter who appointed them. They believe in something. And it's very different from the way that Donald Trump approaches justice.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

Someone made the point when you said that the first time that a stool can't stand on one leg. I mean, how long can we balance on one leg as a country?

[Jim Comey]

We're going to have to balance for another two years and I think we can do it after 250 years of doing that. The genius of the founders design is that federal judiciary really does stand apart. I've dealt with federal judges my whole career. There's a powerful culture that goes to bedrock there. They care about their reputation and reality to be people of integrity and people who wear a blindfold in deciding cases. And so it's tough act to balance on one leg. But I believe the federal judges can and we'll get another leg. I believe in November there'll be two legs on the stool after the coming wave, which I'm no expert, but I think that's coming. The American people feel this and have had enough of this.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

What is it like to see people who are your detractors, people like Jonathan Turley, defend you and basically denigrate the case that's been brought against you.

[Jim Comey]

Makes you a little nervous.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

I was sort of like, how bad is it that Jonathan Turley is now a Comey defender? But it's interesting.

[Jim Comey]

Yeah. I don't know and I'm not sure what he means by crawling inside one of my shelves or whatever, but I think that it's Important that people speak in an honest, open way about these things. Again, I don't want to talk about my case. They're chasing John Brennan just because he has spoken out and spoken the truth. I don't care where you are on the political spectrum. That should offend you, and you ought to stand your butt up and speak about it.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

Why do you think people like Lisa Monaco and Merrick Garland stay quiet?

[Jim Comey]

I don't know. I mean, I can't look inside someone else's life. I've not walked in their shoes at all, I think.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

But you have. Or Chris Wray. I mean, we've walked exactly in his shoes. Wouldn't it be helpful if he was out there as Chris Christie's former attorney, as a Republican president's handpicked replacement for you, defending the men and women of the bureau?

[Jim Comey]

Look, I would like to see it, but I don't know how he thinks about it. What I hope has not happened is that Donald Trump's aiming at people like me and Brennan and Clapper and others has chilled those people, made them afraid to speak. I hope we're not there because they strike me as people of character, but I can't judge them individually.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

Well, without judging them, would it be helpful to our democracy if people who have held these jobs before were telling the American people how far from normal we are?

[Jim Comey]

Yes. I think everybody ought to speak. Bill Barr ought to be on your show talking about the dangers he sees and that he thought that person should never be near the Oval Office again. And look what happened when we put him back. Everybody who has a voice ought to be speaking up. But again, I can't balance what they see risked by speaking up. I don't know what their family circumstances are or those sorts of things. I am going to continue to speak up because I have grandchildren and someday they will be old enough to understand this time. And I want them to know what Pop did during this period of time. I hope everybody feels that way.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

You said this won't be the last. Do you think they're going to indict you again?

[Jim Comey]

Oh, I don't. Maybe, yeah. I mean, I think Donald Trump wakes up at three in the morning thinking about me. I do not. The vice reverse does not happen. But I'm sure that if this case falls apart, they'll come with something else. I'm going to have to deal with this. As I've told my family, they're going to have to deal with this as long as Donald Trump is in the the White House thinking about me. In the middle of the night.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

Have you heard of other jurisdictions looking at trying different cases against you?

[Jim Comey]

I've read stuff in the media about it. I don't know whether it's accurate or not.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

Do you think that the case that fell apart in the Eastern District of Virginia is something that they're going to try to. That was about testimony to Congress?

[Jim Comey]

Yes.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

Do you think they're still pouring over? I mean, you testified before Congress dozens and dozens of times. Is that something that you think they're still scrubbing and trying to find something?

[Jim Comey]

I guess, maybe. But if there's a blessing, it's that the statute of limitations for alleged false statements is five years, so they had to hurry on the last one. They were running out of time. I haven't testified in front of Congress since the fall of 2020, so they're probably pouring over things. But there's not. First of all, there are no false statements, and I don't think that's going to be productive. But they'll continue working on it because that's what the boss wants.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

I remember when you were on book tour. I think that might have been the first time I interviewed you. But your first interview, I think, was with George Stephanopoulos, and you talked about the first time you were around Trump's first team, which I think is turned over entirely, with the exception of Jared Kushner. It reminded you of Cosa Nostra, of a mob family. That was such a better group of people, for lack of any other word. I mean, that first term included people like Jim Mattis and people like Jeff Sessions and people like John Kelly. I mean, what do you. What word would you use to describe this group?

[Jim Comey]

There doesn't appear to be anybody left who is willing to stand for institutional imperatives, norms, things like the rule of law in the face of a desire by the president. There were those people in the first term. Trump spotted it and wanted to make sure it didn't happen again. Apparently, it happened a little bit, at least, with Pam Bondi. So she's gone. What it tells me is that he has found the crew that he was looking for.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

What does that mean for the country?

[Jim Comey]

It's bad. You never want time to fly. But it means it's going to be a very difficult two years and whatever it is, two and a half years. Thank goodness for the elections this fall, thank goodness for the judiciary, but we're in for a rough ride, which really shouldn't shock anyone. Who knew what Donald Trump was, who knew about January 6th, about the 2020 election lives. All of this was in some ways predictable. And now we're going to have to live with to have to live with it.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

When he calls you a dirty cop, what is he talking about and how does that make you feel?

[Jim Comey]

I don't honestly, it's crazy that I'm in a place where I'm 65 years old and I actually find it a little bit humorous to have this obsession by this 80 year old man with me. I don't know. And I am an honest person. I am a person who was raised to stand up and speak out. I can't do any other.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

He is, based on media reports investigating a grand conspiracy. His press secretary, Caroline Levitt went to the podium of the White House briefing room, I think in the summer and described it as this Carrie Matheson. Like if Carrie Matheson wasn't smart scheme to cook the intelligence. And I don't know if it has Trump winning and then under. I don't know. But it involves you. I mean, do you think you will be investigated as part of their grand conspiracy investigation out of Florida?

[Jim Comey]

It's hard to say. That is really red string on the basement crazy wall stuff. And so it's hard to assess from a distance. I gather they found an 81 year old guy, Joe Digenova to come back to government for the first time since Duran Duran was on the charts and lead an investigation again. They're trying to find people who will do that, which principled people will not do. And so it's anything's possible with this crowd.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

I want to read a little bit from your acknowledgments. You write about how difficult this year has been and you write about, as we discussed, the men and women of the department. We'll turn to the book on the other side. You'll stick around?

[Jim Comey]

Of course. Thanks.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

Okay, we will be right back. Don't go anywhere.

[SimpliSafe Advertiser]

Traditional home security only alerts you after a break in. And that's too late. Simplisafe is changing that.

[Jim Comey]

Stop. This is Simplisafe. Police are on the way.

[SimpliSafe Advertiser]

We don't just alert, we stop crime before it starts. Simplisafe plans starting around a dollar a day. Save 50% on your new system with professional monitoring at simplisafe.com sxm or with promo code sxm Outdoor deterrence requires a

[SimpliSafe Legal Disclaimer]

Simplisafe Active Guard Outdoor Protection plan starting at $49.99 a month. Visit simplisafe.com licenses for lawn license information. Tennessee 21 2.

[Chris Hayes]

Artificial intelligence is moving very, very fast. And it's raising new questions just about every day about what it is, what it isn't. When all is said and done, what is the end game? I'm Chris Hayes, and as part of my podcast, why Is this Happening? I'm speaking with leading experts each week to help ground that conversation.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

We're right now in a situation where it's very difficult to understand what is real and what's not real.

[Chris Hayes]

Why is this Happening? The AI Endgame, a special miniseries from Ms. Now. Start listening today, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

We're back with Jim Comey. I feel like there is so much that people don't appreciate about what happened to the first case. I just want to ask you if you can you talk about that first case?

[Jim Comey]

Yes.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

So it's brought by Lindsey Halligan. Clearly, the direction of Donald Trump. Pam Bondi didn't like the case. Eric Siebert, who's a career prosecutor in that office, leaves, says there isn't enough evidence. But your lawyers were arguing that it was a vindictive prosecution. What does that mean? And did you prevail on that?

[Jim Comey]

There are court decisions that say going back 100 years, that it's a violation of the Constitution for a federal prosecutor to come after a defendant for reasons unrelated to the particular case as a retaliation for their exercise of First Amendment rights or some way come after them because they stood up and resisted something in a court of law. That case has been the Abrego case. That kind of claim is being brought. And so my lawyers argued that it's obvious I was only being prosecuted in Virginia because I was a critic of Donald Trump. And they laid out a call in response. Every time I criticized Trump, he called for my prosecution again and again and again. And so to prosecute me after all, that would be a violation of the Constitution. And so we didn't get that vindictive prosecution dismissal because there were all kinds of other problems with the case that got dismissed. First, for Lindsey Halligan's illegitimate.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

You had a fancy lawyer who would have argued that. And would you? I mean, I'm assuming without asking you to talk about this specific case that you're facing now that the facts are unchanged. I mean, Trump tweeted out the last conversation you and I had yesterday. I mean, he continues to attack you on a near daily basis. It would seem that any prosecution of you would be vindictive.

[Jim Comey]

Well, we'll certainly make all appropriate motions in the North Carolina case. And again, you're right. I have a great legal team. We have the Work that we did in Virginia, and I'm sure it'll play a role.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

Would that hold for everyone who he is working down on his list for. For political retribution? I mean, is vindictive prosecution something that would protect someone like John Brennan or any other critic?

[Jim Comey]

It would depend upon the facts of the particular case. You'd have to show there was a vindictiveness aimed at John if there were a case against John. But, yeah, the principle is the same, and it would be useful to them, I think, to establish in Virginia that I was vindictively prosecuted. We didn't get to do that. It's the same reason it's important for my daughter to continue to sue the government for firing her without cause. The president doesn't have that power. We need to establish that. She needs to establish that.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

So she prevailed in court to bring her case forward the same day you were indicted. Just a weird coincidence of being named Comey, I guess.

[Jim Comey]

In Trump 2.0, it's hard to believe there are coincidences, but that seems to me to be coincidental.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

What does it mean for her case? That it can go forward, that she

[Jim Comey]

can now press to the next stage, get an answer from the government and seek to get a ruling from the judge that the president does not have the power under the Constitution to fire a career apolitical person without cause.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

Does she feel like anything that happened to her is related to her role in the Epstein cases?

[Jim Comey]

I don't know for sure because she and I don't talk about the Epstein cases. I think we're both confident it's because she of the family she chose to be born.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

She obviously didn't have a vote.

[Jim Comey]

Bad judgment on her part.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

I want to ask you about whether she inspires Nora, your female protagonist. And this is the fourth novel, right? Fourth one. But I want to ask you one more question about the cases against you. What is. If you have to rewind the tape, really, what is Trump still so mad about? What is your original sin? In Trump's mind, what did you do? Not let flame go or what is it?

[Jim Comey]

I'm not sure. I think it was that the investigation, not of Trump, but the counterintelligence investigation, Investigation of people in the Trump orbit that we began in the summer of 2016, continued on my watch because I remember when he fired me. It's almost 10 years ago now. When he fired me, he talked about the pressure that had taken off. And so I think my original sin was doing that which any FBI director would have done, that is follow your career Folks saying we need to investigate this and then support the investigation and then by speaking out after I got fired and honestly about what he is and the threat he is to the rule of law, I just made it an endless, endless pursuit by him for retribution.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

When you look at how he acts and how there aren't any policies that he's enacted in his first term or in 15 months of a second that Putin doesn't like, do you think the questions were ever answered about his affinity for Russia?

[Jim Comey]

No, I don't know. And he's done things that are bad for Putin, Venezuela harming Iran, those kinds of things. But I can't explain his continuing apparent affection for a dictator.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

When you see things that are blatantly authoritarian, how central is his attack on the rule of law, on people like you, to moving us away from a rule of law based democracy and toward an authoritarian structure?

[Jim Comey]

Oh, I think it's really, really important that we recognize the danger to the rule of law that comes from this kind of vindictive prosecution. It is what separates us from authoritarian regimes that are statue of justice. We always depict her with a blindfold holding the scales. And so it's never about getting people. It's about understanding facts and treating people equally so we can achieve justice. We lose that we're not who we think we are.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

Why do you think the argument that we can't have a vibrant economy if we lose the rule of law doesn't include any of the titans of industry?

[Jim Comey]

Why they not participating in that?

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

Why aren't they in this fight with people like you who are facing your second indictment? Why aren't the people who've benefited the most from the fact that we live in a democracy, that they're based. They're big banks in the heart of our democracy, a lot of them in New York or some of them in Connecticut, where some of these stories play out? Why do you think that the rule of law is being defended by people like yourself and not the titans of business?

[Jim Comey]

I don't know. It's probably the roles and the kind of people. I chatted with Norm Eisen outside, who reminded me his mom was a Holocaust survivor who taught him that when bad things happen, you will be shocked by what people will do and what they won't do. And so I think it's a test of character and a lot of people are failing it.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

Do you want to name any names?

[Jim Comey]

I don't.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

Your legal team is sort of a who's who theirs is. I don't want to insult the bad News Bears because they're so cute, but theirs is pretty hapless. Are you worried, though, that the Overton window keeps moving? That at first it was you sat here and said, I can't imagine anything will come of the shell business when I asked you if you were worried. Here you are indicted over the shell business. Your video makes clear that you trust the judiciary to hold up that stool on one leg. Are you worried that the Overton window is moving to, I'm innocent, but I'm going to get indicted because DOJ is corrupt. I'm innocent, but I might have to go on? I mean, are you worried that we're shifting the window too far?

[Jim Comey]

Yes. Maybe. The most important respect in which that concerns me is a numbness that can creep in, that even I can feel it, like, oh, the second time. Eh, whatever.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

That's what you said to me when I said, how are you doing? You said, well, second time is less shocking. I mean, is that a good thing or a bad thing?

[Jim Comey]

It's a bad thing. First of all, it's a bad thing that it's happening at all that the Department of Justice is being weaponized in this way. But there's a real threat, real risk that we will all become numb to this, which has happened to us in so many ways with Trump over the last eight years.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

How do we guard against that?

[Jim Comey]

Talk about it, speak about it, pinch yourself constantly to say, this is not normal. This is not who we are. We're going to be okay because it is so fundamentally not who we are. I have great faith in this country. I think the Department of Justice faces a terribly difficult time, and something remarkable is going to happen in two and a half years. People are going to flood back in, great people, and we will have the opportunity, as you said in your last segment, to build it in a healthier way. It's a very exciting time. It's like post Watergate when Ed Levy became the Attorney General. What a time to be alive. We just got to stay alive through this two and a half years.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

You really believe that, like, you're about. You go on trial on July 15 for something that even people who don't aren't your fans said is insane.

[Jim Comey]

Yeah, but I'm not talking about me. We are in a very difficult time. We have to get through this. I never want to wish, especially as I look at grandchildren, I never want to wish time flying. I would like time to fly a little faster. But we are going to be okay because this is so obviously not who we are. The reason that cases are being criticized across the political spectrum is because of what they are. And that should tell us all a little bit about how we're going to be.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

Okay, I think I didn't get to the book yet, and I want to ask you about the director of the FBI who continues to make headlines for himself. We'll sneak in one more break. We'll be back on the other side.

[Jim Comey]

Yep.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

Okay. Stay with us.

[SimpliSafe Advertiser]

Traditional home security only alerts you after a break in, and that's too late. Simplisafe is changing that.

[Jim Comey]

Stop. This is Simplisafe. Police are on the way.

[SimpliSafe Advertiser]

We don't just alert, we stop crime before it starts. Simplisafe plans starting around a dollar a day. Save 50% on your new system with professional monitoring at simplisafe.com sxm or with promo code sxm Outdoor deterrence requires a

[SimpliSafe Legal Disclaimer]

Simplisafe Active Guard Outdoor Protection plan starting at $49.99 a month. Visit simplisafe.com licenses for alarm license information.

[Chris Hayes]

Tennessee 2012 Artificial Intelligence is moving very, very fast, and it's raising new questions just about every day about what it is, what it isn't. When all is said and done, what is the end game? I'm Chris Hayes, and as part of my podcast, why Is this Happening? I'm speaking with leading experts each week to help ground that conversation.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

We're right now in a situation where it's very difficult to understand what is real and what's not real.

[Chris Hayes]

Why is this happening? The AI Endgame, a special miniseries from Ms. Now. Start listening today, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

We're back with Jim Comey. The new book Red Verdict comes out tomorrow. I want to read what you write in your acknowledgments reflecting on the current Department of Justice. You write this quote. My characters, Nora and Benny, who are imperfect like all humans, but fundamentally honest and decent, represent the beating heart of the Department of Justice I know so well. In the past year, many people like them, including some in my family, have been fired without cause or forced to quit on principle. Many other good folks remain, trying to survive until the institution can be rebuilt. I'm grateful for the sacrifices and inspiration offered by all of them. Writing was a refuge for me during a difficult 2025, a year in which the idea of apolitical justice was under serious attack. Through it all, my family and friends were there with advice, support, laughter and love. I'd be lost without them. The book starts, as I said, with the dedication, basically to the Purged public servants and ends with that acknowledgement about how hard this year has been. The stories of the FBI agents who've been pushed out, some of them while their spouses were fighting, losing battles of cancer. Are these people that you know that work for you?

[Jim Comey]

Yes, many of them. A lot of them I don't know because of the size of the bureau, but they're all the same kind of people. They're the kind of people you would want in those roles because they don't care about politics. They want to try and get things right. And the idea that they've been punished, disciplined, forced out, or had to quit is just a tragedy. And they will recover. But it's so bad to have them have to experience this pain. I'm so sorry for it.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

What is Kash Patel's deal? He just was reported to have made Kash Patel with the S as a dollar sign, and his name is on an FBI emblazoned bottle of bourbon. Did you have bourbon?

[Jim Comey]

I did not.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

No.

[Jim Comey]

This is a nor a dollar sign in my name.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

This is what Kash Patel gives out on behalf of America's premier law enforcement agency. What. What signal does that send?

[Jim Comey]

I don't remember a lot from law school, but there was an expression, res ipsa loquator, meaning the thing speaks for itself. And so the thing speaks for itself. Your viewers don't need color commentary from me on Kash Patel. The thing speaks for itself.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

Michael Feinberg is a contributor to Ms. Now, and he's talked. He wrote about the culture that was ushered in. He was there for a little bit of it. And it was a use of polygraphs. You write in this fictional novel about how unreliable they are. So unreliable that they're not admissible in court. What does it do to a culture when polygraphs become the norm?

[Jim Comey]

Just further serves to corrode it and to discourage good people just trying to do their jobs. It becomes a poisonous place where people hide from each other, hide candid remarks from each other. The director of the FBI needs at all times to hear the truth about himself, about cases. And anything you do that puts a wet blanket on that creates a danger for the organization.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

What do you think the calculation is for agents that are asked to work on either the two cases that have been brought against you, or you said this won't be the end if there are more cases that they work on or try to bring against you.

[Jim Comey]

They have to decide whether they can participate in any role for the FBI consistent with the law and regulation and constitution that sits atop the organization and their personal values. And if you can't in any role, you ought to not be there any longer.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

And if you are working on the cases against you, what does that say?

[Jim Comey]

Not sure I understand you fully.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

I mean, they brought. They indicted you, right? They got somebody to work on a case against you. And no one has ever. Even your detractors do not believe there is anything that you've done that is illegal. Do you think the Bureau is capable of making things up against people who are their enemies?

[Jim Comey]

I would hope not. But it's a very large organization. Before all the purges, it was some 38,000 folks. So there's going to be a broad array of humans in there. And so it's hard to characterize them in a broad brush.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

Are you scared?

[Jim Comey]

Am I scared? I am not.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

Why not?

[Jim Comey]

Because I know the system. I know me. I know the facts. I know my lawyers. I know judges. It would be harder if it were someone in my seat who didn't have my background. Like John Brennan is a really honorable public servant, but he hasn't seen inside these worlds in the way I have. So they're probably a little bit more, by virtue of being strange, being a little more intimidating. But, look, I'm very concerned for the country. I'm very concerned for what's happening to the Department of Justice and the FBI. I personally am not afraid.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

What is your message to the country in terms of deciding whether or not this is who we are in November or two years later in the presidential.

[Jim Comey]

Decide this is not who we are and do not become numb to it. Stand up and speak. Stand up most of all and vote this fall. Because just saying this isn't who we are sounds wonderful at a cocktail party. It doesn't matter unless you vote that and we change the government.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

This is the fourth Nora story. How much of this is. I mean, you write in the acknowledgments that some of this was therapy for you, but Nora now has her own story and her own arc. How much are you surprised by what writing novels is like?

[Jim Comey]

It's much more fun and addictive than I expected.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

Because they live in your head.

[Jim Comey]

They live in your head. And it's easy because I've based my key characters on people that I know and love.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

And so do we know any of them?

[Jim Comey]

Yeah, I mean, my daughter. My oldest daughter, Maureen, is a big part of the inspiration for Nora. And then I took parts of the other four kids, so no one could be mad at me if they don't like something. And Put it all in there. Benny is based on my beloved friend Ken McCabe, the best investigator I ever knew who died in 2006. And so I hear his voice, his Brooklyn baritone, when I write those scenes. So it's an escape for me. And I'll tell you, the other thing I enjoy is it gives me a chance to show people this is what it's really like inside these organizations. And it ain't boring. This is exciting, but this is real.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

Do you think that it resembles your fictional version of the department, the SCMI office, and the FBI right now?

[Jim Comey]

No, because of the siege that the organization is under. The people exactly resemble the way I depict them, but they're under siege. They all have go bags either literally under their desk. They have to quit or get fired. That's a terrible place. It's a place to be. But, yeah, the people are the same. The environment in which they're working now is very, very difficult.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

That's amazing because I remember in sort of a post 911 time, they had go bags in case they had to get on a plane or a government to go somewhere for an investigation. They have go bags now in case they get fired or have to quit.

[Jim Comey]

Yes.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

It's extraordinary. Shim Khome, you never shy away from the conversation, even when you are the story. So we thank you for being here.

[Jim Comey]

Thanks for having me.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

Is there anything I didn't ask you that's on your mind?

[Jim Comey]

No, I don't think so.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

We got to it.

[Jim Comey]

You want me to name names of people? I'm not doing that.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

I had to ask. I had to ask. And I guess the last thing I would say, because it is out there. You wouldn't be surprised if there were another case brought against you somewhere else in the days or weeks ahead.

[Jim Comey]

I would not. I've told my family this is only going to go away when this administration leaves office because Donald Trump is obsessed with me and with others. I'm not alone in his wake up in the middle of the night. But he is not going to let it go because he's an empty narcissist who has suffered some wound he believes at my hand and so must avenge it, no matter what it takes. And so this will continue. We ought to steel ourselves for that.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

Steel ourselves. We will. The name of the book is Red Verdict. It is out tomorrow. I finished it this afternoon. It's a great read. Director Comey, thank you for being here.

[Jim Comey]

Great to be with you.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

When we come back from Donald Trump's revenge campaign against Director Jim Comey defeat, Heg says revenge or threats against Senator Mark Kelly. And just like the last time, he says seems to be coming up empty legally. That's our next story. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth is desperate to silence Democratic Senator Mark Kelly's warnings about his military leadership. After two courts denied his last attempt, Hegseth is now threatening new legal action for comments Kelly made over the weekend about how Donald Trump's war in Iran is draining US Weapons supplies.

[Jim Comey]

I think it's fair to say it's shocking how deep we have gone into these magazines because this press president got our country into this without a strategic goal, without a plan, without a timeline. And because of that, we've expended a lot of munitions and that means the American people are less safe.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

Hegseth publicly responded to that, to Kelly's warning, accusing Senator Kelly of quote, blabbing about a classified Pentagon briefing he received and promising the Pentagon's legal counsel would be reviewing whether or not Kelly violated his oath, to which Senator Kelly responded with video evidence. Quote, we had this conversation in a public hearing a week ago and you said it would take, quote, years to replenish some of these stockpiles. That's not classified. It's a quote from you. This war is coming at a serious cost. And you and the president still have not explained to the American people what the goal is. I want to bring into our COVERAGE Military analyst Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling. He served as the commanding general of the US army in Europe. General Hertling, as I was reading Hexa's attack, I was thinking, I feel like I watched this on tv. I mean they are sort of underneath an upside down Alice in Wonderland's looking glass. The testimony came from Hegseth about the stockpiles, right?

[Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling]

Yeah, there's not only that, not only the testimony, Nicole, but also it's stated in the National Defense Strategy, a paper that a document that Secretary Hegseth signed, it talked about the depletion of armaments and goods within the military. And that was one of four points which the Secretary said he was going to focus on. And going back to the testimony in both Congress and the Senate, Secretary Hegses said that and he has also been bragging about how many precision munitions have been used in this eight week war. You know, they've talked about 15,000 targeted strikes on Iranian facilities. Well, that's 15,000 precision weapons being used on the ground. And you also have to consider that with the amount of cruise missiles, other missiles going out of Iran into not only US bases, but also the Gulf States, bases. You got to consider that that's an awful lot of air defense pieces of equipment. So I didn't hear anything in Mark Kelly's comments that basically divulged any kind of top secret information or even classified information. It's well known, it's been in a lot of newspapers. It's obvious when you connect the dots. And by the way, if I can add one more thing to bridge from your conversation with Jim Comey. Mark Kelly is a good guy. I know him. And that's what Jim Comey was just talking about. The men and women of the FBI, he said they are all good people. They're not about partisan politics. They're talking about the security of the nation. And that's what Senator Kelly is doing because he is a good man worried about America.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

Well, I was thinking about the connection of the two stories myself. And what seems to be the same is that the appetite for retribution is insatiable. And so they went to a grand jury already to try to indict all six of the members, former members of the military or national security agencies, and not one grand juror agreed to indict them. So they seem now to be desperately groping around for something one of them says on a Sunday show or something that, you know, I don't know, happens in an interview forum. And I wonder what that means for the military. To watch former members of the military be basically hunted by the department to see if they can make something stick.

[Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling]

Yeah, well, you know, it was interesting a couple of months ago when I supported Senator Kelly on one of the programs and I can't remember which one it was. I got a text from him. We had met a couple of years ago here in Orlando. I got a text from him and he said, hey, thanks a lot, but be careful because they're out after everyone. And that's true. I mean, they're ignoring really important things like planning and operations and threats and in order to do this retribution campaign against their perceived enemies. When their perceived enemies are just talking about the strength and health of the United States, it is just so obvious. And again, going back to what Jim Comey just said, you know, you don't have to even speak for it. It speaks for itself. You can see what they're doing. And it is so friggin obvious that it doesn't need a whole lot of commentary. But here we are.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

Here we are together again. Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, thank you very much for being part of our coverage today. A quick break for us. We'll be Right back. This week's episode of the Best People podcast was a real treat for me. I got to speak in an extended way to my colleague Chris Hayes, who I usually only get to talk to on big news nights. But we got to dive in and go deep on his latest project. It's a deep dive into AI, but we also got to talk about all those things we don't get to cover when we're on TV together covering big election nights or special coverage. Take a listen to what he told me about this president's social media habits.

[Chris Hayes]

But I think that like when it was on Twitter, particularly when it was on Twitter, during peak Twitter pre crash when we were all there, when everyone's there, it was so. It was like being in a subway car with a person who's having a breakdown.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

Nice.

[Chris Hayes]

But then we all move to a different subway car just in there. And I think it's sort of, I think it helps him. I really do think it helps him because it's, it's like, and you're totally right that if that was, if that was more present, if it were, I mean, again, if anyone in your life, I mean, forget about, you know, first there's athletes or celebrities, but like if a co worker, if your boss, you

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

were posting all night.

[Chris Hayes]

I mean, I wouldn't, I mean it would be. No one would.

[Interviewer (Nicole Wallace)]

I would call Rachel and be like you call him. Little insight into the role Rachel plays here. The conversation was so fun for us. You won't want to miss the rest of it. Just scan the QR code on your screen or download wherever you get your podcast. Now to listen. One more break. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes tonight. We are grateful.

[SimpliSafe Advertiser]

In the US there's a break in every 26 seconds. But when intruders step near, simply Simplisafe Home security steps up.

[Jim Comey]

Stop. This is Simplisafe. Police are on the way.

[SimpliSafe Advertiser]

Using AI alerts, US based live agents help deter break ins. SimpliSafe no long term contracts. Save 50% on your new system with professional monitoring at SimpliSafe.com sxm or with promo code sxm Outdoor deterrence requires a

[SimpliSafe Legal Disclaimer]

Simplisafe Active Guard Outdoor protection plan starting at $49.99 a month. Visit simplisafe.com licenses for alarm license information. Tennessee2012.