“Fealty won out”

Summary

Deadline: White House - Episode Summary: “Fealty Won Out”

Release Date: July 4, 2025

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Introduction

In the episode titled “Fealty Won Out” of Deadline: White House, host Nicolle Wallace delves deep into the tumultuous passage of President Donald Trump’s signature tax and spending legislation. Drawing from her extensive experience in political communications, Wallace provides a comprehensive analysis of the bill's passage, its implications for American society, and the potential political fallout heading into the 2026 midterms.

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The Passage of Trump's Spending Bill

Alicia Menendez opens the discussion by highlighting the arduous journey the bill took through Congress, marked by intense negotiations, last-minute debates, and significant concessions. Wallace underscores the contentious nature of the bill, emphasizing the deep-seated concerns it raised among both Democrats and Republicans.

Notable Quote:

“Fealty won out, even among Republicans who've spent their careers shouting about the very measures they just voted to approve.”
– Nicole Wallace [02:30]

Wallace cites Politico, which critiqued the bill as lacking "ambition and vision," signaling potential limitations to the Make America Great Again (MAGA) movement. The bill is characterized as a reiteration of longstanding Republican policies, primarily offering tax relief to the wealthy while imposing cuts to essential programs like Medicaid.

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Impact on Medicaid and the Affordable Care Act

The discussion pivots to the bill’s substantial impact on healthcare. Wallace points out that the legislation threatens to strip Medicaid coverage from nearly 12 million Americans and slashes food assistance programs, exacerbating the affordability crisis faced by many families.

Notable Quote:

“Republicans just did nothing to help you out of that affordability crisis. Your utility costs will likely go up as a result of the Republican attacks on some of the Biden energy programs...”
– Nicole Wallace [07:45]

This approach is criticized as both morally wrong and politically short-sighted, especially during a period when access to affordable healthcare is paramount. The potential increase in national debt by $5 trillion further complicates the bill's ramifications.

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Political Fallout and the 2026 Midterms

With the bill now signed and set to be enacted, Wallace and her guests explore the anticipated political consequences. House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries’s record-breaking eight-hour speech against the bill is highlighted as a strategic move to galvanize Democratic voters by underscoring the bill’s harmful effects.

Notable Quote:

“We are going to press on until victory is won.”
– House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries [04:36]

Democrats plan to focus their campaign on the bill's unpopularity, portraying it as a "pinata" that slashes healthcare and food assistance, thereby energizing their base to oppose Republicans in the upcoming elections.

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Internal Republican Dynamics and Fealty to Trump

Wallace analyzes the internal dynamics within the Republican Party, noting that despite vocal opposition from some members, the majority aligned with Trump’s directive to pass the bill. David Jolly, a former Republican Congressman now running as a Democrat, highlights the disconnect between Republicans' public statements and their voting behavior.

Notable Quote:

“Republican math never works, and secondly, they always fold.”
– David Jolly [07:23]

This fealty to Trump, even at the cost of alienating constituents in swing districts, suggests a significant fracture within the party that could be exploited by Democrats.

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Elon Musk’s Opposition and the Rise of the America Party

The episode also touches on high-profile opposition from Elon Musk, who threatened to create a new political party if Republicans proceed with the bill. Wallace discusses the potential impact of such a move, though she remains skeptical about its immediate feasibility.

Notable Quote:

“With 218 members of the House, to say nothing of the Senate, obviously would be quite expensive.”
– Nicole Wallace [24:43]

Musk's threat underscores the growing dissatisfaction within certain segments of the Republican base, potentially leading to further fragmentation and providing Democrats with an opportunity to appeal to disenchanted voters.

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Conditions in Detention Centers and Immigration Policies

Shifting focus, Wallace addresses the humanitarian concerns arising from the Trump administration’s immigration crackdown. The new ICE facility in Florida’s Everglades, dubbed “Alligator Alcatraz,” is criticized for its inhumane conditions and inadequate preparedness for Florida’s weather.

Notable Quote:

“It's a very callous stunt... we are about to see this question.”
– Nicole Wallace [34:35]

Democratic lawmakers attempt to tour the facility but are denied access, raising questions about transparency and the treatment of detainees. This situation is juxtaposed with the broader narrative of Republican policies prioritizing enforcement over community safety and humane treatment.

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Economic Implications and the Jobs Report

The conversation also covers the recent June jobs report, which, despite exceeding expectations with 147,000 new jobs, reveals underlying economic uncertainties. Wallace connects this to Trump’s trade policies and anticipates that the Fed, under pressure, will maintain or increase interest rates, further impacting sectors like housing.

Notable Quote:

“Chair Powell is going to hold steady, not move rates down.”
– Nicole Wallace [42:56]

The bill’s cuts to Medicaid and food assistance are expected to strain the labor market by reducing disposable income and increasing living costs for working-class Americans.

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Democratic Strategy Moving Forward

Wallace emphasizes the need for Democrats to effectively communicate the detrimental effects of the bill. By sharing personal stories of those affected and highlighting the contradiction between Republican promises and actions, Democrats aim to resonate with voters on a human level rather than relying solely on statistics.

Notable Quote:

“Put it in those everyday terms, letting the American people speak to what's happened to them.”
– Nicole Wallace [64:54]

This approach is deemed essential for countering the entrenched narratives propagated by MAGA media, ensuring that the real-life impacts of the legislation are front and center in political discourse.

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Conclusion

In “Fealty Won Out,” Nicolle Wallace provides a critical examination of the Trump administration’s latest legislation, dissecting its immediate and long-term effects on American society and the political landscape. With anticipated challenges in the upcoming midterms and internal divisions within the Republican Party, Wallace underscores the precarious balance between policy enactment and political sustainability. The episode serves as a somber reflection on the intersection of policy, politics, and the lived experiences of everyday Americans.

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Notable Quotes Recap:

1. Nicole Wallace [02:30]: “Fealty won out, even among Republicans who've spent their careers shouting about the very measures they just voted to approve.”
2. Nicole Wallace [07:45]: “Republicans just did nothing to help you out of that affordability crisis. Your utility costs will likely go up as a result of the Republican attacks on some of the Biden energy programs...”
3. Hakeem Jeffries [04:36]: “We are going to press on until victory is won.”
4. David Jolly [07:23]: “Republican math never works, and secondly, they always fold.”
5. Nicole Wallace [24:43]: “With 218 members of the House, to say nothing of the Senate, obviously would be quite expensive.”
6. Nicole Wallace [34:35]: “It's a very callous stunt... we are about to see this question.”
7. Nicole Wallace [42:56]: “Chair Powell is going to hold steady, not move rates down.”
8. Nicole Wallace [64:54]: “Put it in those everyday terms, letting the American people speak to what's happened to them.”

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This summary encapsulates the key discussions, insights, and conclusions presented in the episode, providing a comprehensive overview for those who have not listened to the full podcast.

Transcript

[Nicole Wallace]

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[Alicia Menendez]

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[Nicole Wallace]

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[Alicia Menendez]

Hey there everybody. It is four o' clock here in New York. I'm Alicia Menendez in front of Cole Wallace and the word of the day is opportunity. Like the one in front of Democrats this afternoon or the one Republicans might have just squandered. Because today, after weeks of hemming, hawing, flipping, flopping deals, threats, changes, carve outs, concessions, bargains and all night debate and a last minute, hours long filib Donald Trump's signature tax and spending legislation, it is on his way to his desk to be signed into law tomorrow. Its path here it was not pretty deep seated concerns about what the bill will do to Medicaid, for example, or the national debt. Those persisted throughout the process, even among Trump's most vocal supporters in Congress. But in the end, after applied pressure, fealty won out, even among Republicans who've spent their careers shouting about the very measures they just voted to approve. In other words, it's not all that hard to shove a square peg through a round hole if you're holding a sledgehammer. Politico asserts Trump spent every cent of his political capital on a bill marked by its lack of ambition and vision, suggesting real limits to the MAGA movement. Quote there's no Nixon goes to China policy. Surprise. No dramatic break from the familiar. Nothing bold to suggest the unique populist coalition he has assembled or to cement in the decades ahead its signature idea, tax relief is meaningful and shouldn't be minimized. But that's always been a core GOP tenet. So has a centralized commitment to growth and prosperity. Spending on border security addresses a critical need, but isn't inherently additive. Much of the bill smacks of a reassertion of decades old Republican policies and an embrace of party orthodoxy, it is easily caricatured as a giveaway to the wealthy that also slashes health care. A pinata for Democrats to bash and ride back to a House majority. Perhaps that ride began today when House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries wrapped up the longest House speech ever. There were those moments.

[Nicole Wallace]

Watch. So as I take my seat, I just want to say to the American people that no matter what the outcome is on this singular day, we're going to press on. We're going to press on for our children, press on for our seniors, press on for our veterans, press on for our unions, press on for our farmers, press on for our dreamers, press on for working class Americans. Press on for the middle class. Press on for all who aspire to be part of the middle class. Press on for the poor, Press on for the sick. Press on for the afflicted. Press on for the least. Press on for the lost. Press on for the left behind. Press on for the rule of law. Press on for the American way of life. Press on for democracy. We're going to press on until victory is won. I yield back.

[Alicia Menendez]

That moment, an homage to Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. And his famous phrase, press on. A moment that brings us back to where we started. Opportunity. As one party turns away from it, another aims to take advantage. How far they take it, well, that is entirely up to them. And that is where we start today with NBC News Capitol Hill correspondent Melanie Zenona. Also joining us, former Republican Congressman David Jolly. He is now a Democratic candidate for governor in the state of Florida. And Sirius XM host and political analyst Zerlina Maxwell is here. All right, Melanie, the vote, it is over. What happens now on Capitol Hill? Well, now that this is over, it's going to go to President Donald Trump's desk by his self imposed July 4th deadline. There is going to be a bill signing ceremony tomorrow and he wanted this big symbolic victory which is why the GOP leadership with pushing through through the night. There's a lot of twists and turns throughout this whole saga. At some moments it didn't look like it was actually going to get done. But ultimately almost everyone fell in line. In the end, it was just two Republicans who voted no. That was Thomas Massie of Kentucky. He's a conservative, a libertarian, he's often considered a sort of independent thinker, has bucked the GOP leadership on a number of votes. So he was not terribly surprising. But then there was Brian Fitzpatrick, Pennsylvania. He's a moderate he represents one of the three districts that Kama Harris won in 2024 that is represented currently by a Republican. So he's going to be in a competitive race. And the reason, according to the statement he put out after the vote that he voted no, was because of those cuts to Medicaid. And so that is going to be a centerpiece of the battle to win back the House Democrats already previewing what that playbook is going to look like. They said they're going to be in all these different districts throughout the whole summer, hammering this bill, highlighting Republicans who voted for it and what they say are the damaging consequences for millions of Americans who are going to lose their health insurance, are going to lose food stamps. GOP leadership, though, in the moment, dismissing those concerns, they feel like they have a winning message. They're taking a victory lap. Speaker Mike Johnson had a press conference moments ago where he talked about how this is such a historic moment, such a big victory, no doubt a huge sigh of relief for the leadership because, again, it did not look like it was going to get done. But now the even tougher job begins for GOP leadership because they're going to have to go back home and sell this bill in their districts and across the country. They are betting that they'll be able to do that, but we'll see who's right. No doubt this is going to be a huge centerpiece of the 2026 midterms. So, David Jolie, I just want to make sure I'm getting this right. House Republicans, they talk tough about how this legislation's bad and they need to have all these changes made in order for them to vote on it. And then they get none of those changes and almost all of them. Vot. Am I getting that correct? David Jolly?

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah. Two truisms from my time in Congress. One, Republican math never works, and secondly, they always fold. And I think we got to see all of that happen. Here's the most fascinating thing, Alicia. It is really odd. Not only is it a moral wrong, but it is politically odd to attack affordable health care in the midst of an affordability crisis. Right? The city election we just saw in Manhattan, my race down in Florida, states across the country where families are suffering from an affordability crisis. One of the components is access to affordable health care. And the Republican bill actually decided that the single place they were going to look for savings is to attack affordable health care in the midst of an affordability crisis. Now, here's the fascinating thing, right? Budgets are values, and I'm not sure what Republicans now have to sell to the American people because the biggest thing that they kept in place were existing tax rates. Existing tax rates. So it's not as though there are a lot of huge tax cuts for the American people in this. Now. I would suggest we should keep the current tax rates for working class families, but instead of attacking affordable health care to try to pay for it, they could have let the tax rates for the wealthiest Americans actually expire. And in the end, none of the math works because it actually drives up the debt by $5 trillion, which was why Rand Paul said, I'm not there. So I'm not sure truly, Alicia, what they're really going to sell. We kept your tax rates the same, but we attacked affordable health care in the midst of an affordability crisis. Look, that does give Democrats an opening. I would say very cynically. One of the things Republicans did is most of the Medicaid cuts, most of the affordable health care cuts don't actually occur until 2027 because Republicans know that it's a political loser for them going into the midterms.

[Alicia Menendez]

Jelena, speak to the lack of ambition, the lack of vision that we see in this legislation and the lack of reverence for the coalition that actually brought Donald Trump to power.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, it's not just a lack of reverence, Alicia, but I think it's actually abject cruelty.

[Alicia Menendez]

It's ignoring what people said that they were voting for Donald Trump for they.

[Nicole Wallace]

As David just pointed out, it was an affordability issue.

[Alicia Menendez]

It was about the cost of living.

[Nicole Wallace]

The cost of groceries, the cost of housing.

[Alicia Menendez]

And so if you are going to make all of those things more expensive, plus remove the access to essential health.

[Nicole Wallace]

Care like reproductive health care. This bill also defunds Planned Parenthood. Everything for Americans families and working families.

[Alicia Menendez]

Is going to become more difficult.

[Nicole Wallace]

I think that when you look at.

[Alicia Menendez]

What people are struggling with and what they're concerned about on a day in and day out basis, this bill will make their lives harder. And that is not a good selling point. I don't even know how they're going to sell this other than try to spin what they have done here and make it sound good when none of it is good. Melanie, I have now heard something twice that I think we're going to continue to hear from Republicans, most recently heard it from Representative Ralph Norman of South Carolina. And that is this idea that somehow this legislation which is on its way to the president's desk, can be fixed in post, that with executive action or that with tinkering on the margin, somehow the worst parts of this legislation can be fixed. One that's not how the legislative process works. I wonder if you are hearing rumblings of that from Republicans on the Hill who know that they have just swallowed a political poison pill. Yeah, I'll say a couple things about that. I mean, number one, I think a lot of that is just things that are members telling themselves at night to make them sleep better about having to vote for this bill. Ralph Norman and a bunch of other Freedom Caucasians members spent all week trashing this bill saying it was a disaster, it was trash, and then they end up voting for it. Now they did, I'm told, get some assurances behind the scenes that how this bill is going to be implemented aggressively, including some of the rollbacks of the clean energy tax credits, including some of the new work requirements and other restrictions for Medicaid. And they also had some discussions about future potential action to address some conservative priorities, whether that's with executive action, other reconciliation bills, perhaps other forms of legislation. There is a big spending fight coming up. But the reality is, especially now that the leadership has seen that the Freedom Caucus is willing to fold. They don't have a ton of sway or credibility in these negotiations anymore. And so if they're banking on a future fight, I mean, this was the moment if they really wanted to enact generational change in terms of reining in government spending. This is the biggest piece of legislation and their biggest opportunity to do that. But in the end, the pressure to fall in line behind Trump was just greater than anything else. Well, David Jolly, he had an arbitrary deadline because he wanted the fireworks and here they are. He's going to get that at the price of millions of Americans losing their health insurance. I want you to take a listen to something that DNC Chair Ken Martin said today on Morning Joe.

[Nicole Wallace]

This is not going to go well for Republicans. And someone said this earlier, they are handing us a gift on a silver platter. But the problem with all of this is while it might be good politically, it's going to be disastrous for the American people who are going their lives are going to be shattered and communities are going to be afflicted with a lot of pain over the coming years because of this bill.

[Alicia Menendez]

So, David Jolley, going back to this idea of this legislation being a pinata that Democrats are going to have the opportunity to take a stick to over and over again between now and midterms, what is the framework they use to explain to their voters and to the American people exactly what it is Republicans have done here?

[Nicole Wallace]

Listen in the midst of an affordability crisis. Republicans just did nothing to help you out of that affordability crisis. Your utility costs will likely go up as a result of the Republican attacks on some of the Biden energy programs, the clean and renewable energy programs, your access to food security programs if you're in a family in need, and certainly your access to affordable health care, not just Medicaid, but attacks on those participants in the ACA program, which on the exchange in Florida is nearly 5 million people. And so who is that community that this attacks? It is nearly half of the state of Florida. It's just a Florida perspective right now where nearly half of the state is what we term, Alice, asset limited, income constrained, but employed working class people who are living paycheck to paycheck. They cannot handle a disruption of their personal economy. And what Republicans just said is, listen, if you need lower utilities, sorry, we're going to disrupt that. If you need access to food security, sorry, we're going to disrupt that. If you get your health care through Medicaid or the aca, sorry, we're about to disrupt that. We're about to make your life more expensive. I think that's what Chairman Martin is getting to. And that is the singular message. Listen, it amazes me politically why Republicans kind of whistle past the graveyard and ignoring the affordability crisis that is hitting Americans from all walks, all walks of life, in every corner of our state, every corner of the country, but they're ignoring it. And that is why you're seeing the resurgence of Democrats this cycle.

[Alicia Menendez]

Well, you know, Zerlina, I love when David Jolly talks about Florida, because I actually think Florida is in so many ways ahead of the curve on this, given that it has been governed by Ron DeSantis who has made himself in Trump's image. And so, so many of the policies that we're watching play out in Florida in some ways are precursors to what we are all going to experience as a nation. It strikes me you've worked on political campaigns, you look at polling. There's one question that always stands out. Which party, in some cases, which candidate understands my life? And that is where the affordability question comes in. Right? Do people understand the way in which me and my family are hurting? Just how difficult it is to put groceries on the table right now, how difficult it is to fill up my, my car with gas? They had an opportunity here, Zerlina. They could have delivered something that was legitimately populous, and instead they went back to old school orthodoxy and they told Americans what we are all going to have to sacrifice in order to give an enormous tax break to the wealthiest among us. They had an opportunity to state their priorities, Orlena, and this is what they said. So then, one, do you believe they pay a political price for that? And two, how do you think Democrats sharpen their message to make sure that between now and Election Day that broken promise is front and center? I think the Democrats need to focus.

[Nicole Wallace]

On the impact of the policies in this bill. So you heard that today during that.

[Alicia Menendez]

Marathon speech, record breaking speech by Hakeem Jeffries. I think that you need to tell the stories about the policies in this bill and how they're going to actually impact American families. That means that, okay, you have an aging parent that requires long term care or nursing home care or even nursing care in the home. How are you going to be able to pay for that when you have.

[Nicole Wallace]

To pay for your groceries and your housing and all of the child care.

[Alicia Menendez]

Costs for your own family that's living with you already? And when you cut billions of dollars from Medicaid, now you're going to have to foot the bill for that aging parent and somehow make it make the math, math. And it's not going to work for so many people.

[Nicole Wallace]

This bill is cruelty disguised as lawmaking.

[Alicia Menendez]

And if Democrats can focus on the impact and not list off a bunch of numbers and tell the stories and.

[Nicole Wallace]

Show the faces of the people who.

[Alicia Menendez]

Are going to be directly impacted by the policies in this bill, I think that that will be deeply effective for them in terms of their messaging. But I think if they focus on stats and statistics, that's going to be a lot less effective. Alicia, the numbers always lose. Me, too. Zerlina, Melody, help me understand something. This was supposed to be Donald Trump's signature piece of legislation. The lawmakers, they're all headed home. They're going to hear from their constituents when they return. What remains on the docket? Well, there's going to be a huge government funding fight in September, end of September, September 30th. That's when the next deadline is. And I do think that is going to be a huge showdown because on both sides of the political spectrum here, there is immense pressure for Democrats. There's pressure to stand up to Trump. If you remember, earlier this year, there was another funding deadline and Chuck Schumer ultimately decided to play ball and help fund the government. He got a ton of backlash from the base. And so I don't think Democrats are going to be willing to play ball, especially after this big bill passed that cut health care and Medicaid for so many Americans. I just don't see them necessarily willing, being willing to give up the votes in that scenario, Republicans are going to have to pass a bill entirely with Republican votes. And as we've seen, that is really, really tricky to do. And if these conservatives feel emboldened about needing to rein in government spending and they didn't get everything they wanted in this bill, they're also going to feel like they need to fight. And so we could absolutely be headed for a government showdown. Other than that, there's not a whole lot on the legislating docket. It's pretty much 2026 is going to start to take center stage pretty quickly here after the reconciliation bill. It all, David reminds me of when I was younger and I would read like YA books and they all kind of end the same way. But you, you, like, hold your breath midway through as though maybe this one is going to have a different ending. And like Melanie is doing the correct reporting. That is what all her sources are saying. That is exactly what Republicans on Capitol Hill will tell you. But then they go into these fights, David, and at the end of the day, they don't get much in return and they end up casting their votes for legislation that they themselves have told you is bad. Right. So, like, maybe there's a protracted fight, but do you really see any universe where there is delivery either on this question of the deficit, this question of government spending, or do we just end up with more money for Donald Trump's mass deportation plan?

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, I think that's it. And I would offer Alicia, in that book, there's a chapter on Susan Collins and a chapter on Lisa Murkowski and a chapter on a lot of people that Americans have put their hope and faith in. But look, the reality is Democrats should not and will not give a single vote in the annual budget process, the appropriations process to Republicans. And Republicans won't be able to do this. This will get kicked sometime into next spring. But what they will make sure the money is there, because we just saw it in this tax bill, is for, you know, the president's war on communities. I don't even say war on immigration. He is fighting communities and going looking for crime. He will continue that war on communities and they will continue to attack affordable health care in the country. And I think, look, this is a very important, important thing, right? We're going to get into some wonky conversations. Republicans will tell us about Medicaid and formulas and taxes. This is about affordable health care, depending on your generation. You view the Medicaid program somewhat differently. But today Medicaid covers over 40% of childbirths in states like Florida. It covers really end of life care in memory care and long term nursing facilities where people have no more assets. It covers health care for families who are just over the poverty line. So I don't want to hear from the pro life party that somehow. So you're ripping money from childbirth care and from end of life care and from families who need to provide health care for their children that somehow this is a good political question for you. It's a wrong political question. I think there are some more colorful words we could use in this moment, but that essentially is what they're going to end up running on. We attacked affordable health care and we're attacking communities through increased funding for the president's anti immigration program. And along the way, we added $5 trillion in debt for your kids and your grandkids. And we can't even pass an annual budget because even though we control everything, the House, the Senate and the White House, we actually can't actually get governing done. That's a Republican message going into 26.

[Alicia Menendez]

Well, I'm going to layer onto that. They're going to be extra pissed when they realize that the reason they're losing their Medicaid is because they have changed deadlines and paperwork and made it absolutely impossible for people to access these benefits. Melanie Zenona, Zerlina Maxwell, thank you both so much for starting us off. David, you are sticking with me when we come back.

[Nicole Wallace]

Back.

[Alicia Menendez]

The passage of Trump's spending bill is expected to trigger Elon Musk's promise of a new political party. Despite his earlier promise of stepping away from spending his money on politics, the reality is whatever that is next. Plus, the first wave of detainees arrived at the president's new ICE facility in Florida. You know, the one surrounded by alligators and pythons. Now it's also the one that reportedly has been hit by flooding, even though there's been just a few summer showers in that area. More questions today about the humane treatment those being sent there. And later in the show going on offense. More on the opportunity Hakeem Jeffries laid out in his record breaking floor speech today. Congressman Jamie Raskin is going to join us. All of that and more when Deadline White has continues after this.

[Nicole Wallace]

As President Trump continues implementing his ambitious agenda. Follow along with MSNBC's newest newsletter, Project 47. You'll get weekly updates sent straight to your inbox with expert analysis on the administration's latest actions and how they're affecting the American people.

[Alicia Menendez]

The American people are basically telling the President that they are not okay with any of this.

[Nicole Wallace]

Sign up for the Project 47 newsletter at MSNBC. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access, ad free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace, why is this Happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddows original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.

[Alicia Menendez]

As Republicans in Washington scrambled to meet Donald Trump's July 4 deadline to pass his mega bill, his former ally and major donor Elon Musk has spent the week looking to derail it. Musk has sent a barrage of posts on the platform he owns, X threatening to primary any Republican who supports the bill that he has called a quote, disgusting abomination. Going on to say that a new political party called the America Party would be formed the day after this bill passes. Musk has already publicly pledged to back Kentucky Republican Thomas Massie in his next election, who Donald Trump has called to be primaried for his opposition to the bill. Massie was one of two Republicans to vote against the bill today. Joining us now, New York Times correspondent Teddy Schleifer. David is back with me as well. Teddy, what is Elon Musk actually doing here?

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, I mean, just wait, wait just nine hours until the clock strikes midnight and we got to see the America Party file with the Federal Election Commission. In all seriousness, I mean, I have not detected any serious momentum toward doing this. You know, we always run the risk like we do with Trump, of taking Elon too seriously. You know, he obviously bends reality to his fate in the business world, but I have not detected, as I said, any kind of momentum toward doing this. I do think he will probably support, you know, primary challengers to some Republicans. I'm sure he'll support Doug, Thomas, Massie and maybe Representative Fitzpatrick of Pennsylvania. But to primary 218 members of the House, to say nothing of the Senate, obviously would be quite expensive.

[Alicia Menendez]

But tell me something, and I want to make sure I'm understanding this properly, Teddy, which is one could argue that Elon Musk is actually not totally ideologically aligned with the Republican Party as it stands today. If what he wanted to do was mostly to express his discontent, isn't there as much an opportunity for him to do that, perhaps a better opportunity for him to do that by backing candidates in a general election, given the amount of power and persuasion and hold that Donald Trump has over Republican primary voters.

[Nicole Wallace]

Sure. I mean, that's a, that's a, you know, age old question. You know, for people who want to effectuate change, is better to kind of compete in primaries or in general elections. I mean, the counterargument is there are fewer general elections that are competitive in the House, especially given kind of the way gerrymandering works these days. But, you know, if Elon Musk wanted to support some moderate Democrats who are competing against moderate Republicans, you know, like David Valdeo, who supported this bill, maybe there's a Democrat who Musk might support who would oppose the bill. But, you know, the reality is there's a lot of, a lot of opportunities in primaries and you know, that tends to be where a lot of the action is in terms of changing the members. Members of Congress is through, is through primaries and House members up every two years. Elon Musk has 218 people that he could target if he chooses to.

[Alicia Menendez]

So, David, to the point we were talking about a little bit earlier, we have watched a version of what has just played out on Capitol Hill play out before, where Republicans express discontent, ultimately come around and vote for Donald Trump's legislation. This time, something did feel slightly different in terms of the fracture or fissure lines that we saw within the MAGA coalition. Yes, that may not have manifested in the way that folks actually voted, but certainly in the way in which they were articulating. Hey, I thought this is what we stood for. Am I right or am I wrong? The fact that you have Elon Musk, that you have Steve Bannon coming out and talking about the fact that whatever was sold as faux populism has been on paper abandoned, does feel like a shift, David. And I wonder, just given that we're talking about folks who have moneyed interest here, if there then is a way in which that becomes a cross pressure going into midterms.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, I think you're right, Alicia. The submission seemed a lot more painful this go round for members of Congress. Right. And in part though, I think we have to recognize because of the presence of Elon Musk, and this is really odd, but if you look at the people who stood up to Donald Trump the last go round, they were politicians like myself. They were even within some appointments within his own cabinet, but they were not the wealthiest man in the world. And by the way, somebody that Donald Trump had courted and probably is very jealous of because of his wealth, somebody with unlimited means to reach people through messaging. And then you bring in the Steve Bannons and the others that hold a certain command within the MAGA light or whatever you want to call that lane. And there is a real contest. And this is also a president who now will not be on the ballot. So a lot of these members who walk the plank today, they're on their own now. They're on their own now. And so that will be interesting. Here's what's fascinating, though, about, you know, Musk's flirtation with the new party. You see this a lot of times. Politically, I've engaged in organizing the independent space. Here's the most important lesson for Democrats, Democrats, frankly, and Republicans. But I'm speaking to Democrats now. When you see these moments, it is true the independent voter is one of the fastest growing electorates in the country. But those voters are available to us as Democrats just as much as they are available to Elon Musk in this moment.

[Alicia Menendez]

Right.

[Nicole Wallace]

It is not something that we should just wish away, that somehow a new party will never happen or the independent movement will never mobilize. We actually need to recognize those voters are available to us. And if we talk about our values, that an economy should work for everyone, the government should serve its people and everyone should be lifted up and protected. Regardless of who you love, the color of your skin, where you were born, or who you worship, those voters are available to us just as much as they're available to Elon Musk today.

[Alicia Menendez]

Wait, can I just ask you real quickly to clarify something for me, though, David Jelly, by that, do you mean the irregular voters that we have seen coming out and voting for Donald Trump, or do you mean more regular voters who are perhaps not as calcified in their partisan position?

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, I think we will see a boost in turnout by calling traditional Democratic voters in this environment. It's an affordability crisis, a change environment. Republicans just showed you their values. But the registered independents or the no party affiliates, which in some states are 40% of the state or 30% of the state, sure, they are sometimes asked to choose between two parties because that's all they see on the ballot. But that is a coalition of voters that are always looking for change, Right? They're suspicious of the major parties. They're suspicious of incumbents. They don't think government works for them. They don't trust politicians. And so what Elon Musk is trying to seize on is. Wait a minute. MAGA broke promises. Donald Trump broke promises. This isn't a working class Bill, and he's exploding the debt for your kids. Well, that's going to be a message that Elon Musk or others take to these, these independent voters who are looking for something different. Democrats have the opportunity to go to those voters today as well and say, we understand the affordability crisis and we're a party with solutions. Come be a part of our coalition.

[Alicia Menendez]

Teddy, part of what I find so fascinating is that House Republicans were very much in lockstep with Elon Musk, as Joe Negus recently pointed out. Take a listen.

[Nicole Wallace]

I'm sure you saw Elon Musk has been very vocal about his opposition to this bill. You're aware of that? I am aware of that. And sincerely held convictions. You disagree with. You think he's wrong? No, I think he has sincerely held convictions about the runaway spending. But then why not follow his. I mean, he has encouraged everybody to. I don't follow any man. You don't follow any man? I follow my content. Let me read you a quote. This is from your website on May 29, quote, this is the headline, Arrington applauds Elon Musk's leadership. And the quote here is, we should not only appreciate Elon's courageous leadership, but follow it by holding Washington accountable, rooting out waste, restoring fiscal sanity before the debt burden crushes the future of this great nation. So I don't. Sounds like you were telling people about a month ago that folks should follow his lead on debt reduction, but it's a different tune. No, it's not.

[Alicia Menendez]

So on one hand, Teddy, my temptation is to ask you the question, like, what happens to Republicans now? Given that they built an entire committee as homage to Elon Musk. But. But perhaps the better question is what happens to all of us, right? Like his vision, this idea of Doge, the idea of cutting government spending by actually just axing a bunch of hardworking federal employees. Republicans bought into that wholesale. They did it. And now they are left with a government that is not functioning at top speed. But the person whose lead they were following is now Persona non grata inside of MAGA world. So, like, I get that they have no clear ideology here, but I don't know how they reconcile the bait and switch.

[Nicole Wallace]

I don't think it's that hard. They just won't talk about it as much. I mean, Republicans can talk about. People can talk about whatever they want, right? I mean, I mean, you know, they could talk about Elon Musk and Doge for the first four or five months, the administration, and then this bill passes and they'll go talk about something else. Like, I don't think there needs to be this. It's not a big deal if things are so incongruous because this is politics. And, you know, Elon Musk is out of the picture as far as they're concerned. I mean, and clearly, you know, the budget hawks that were might be aligned with Elon Musk just lost. Right. I mean, normally two votes against us in the Republican conference, the fealty to Trump and to the pressure to kind of get along with Trump outweighed the pressure to get along with Musk. And that's kind of that. I'm not trying to be flip. I just don't think there needs to be this consistency in the year 2025. People can get away with whatever they want.

[Alicia Menendez]

Fortunately, that is a sad state of affairs. I am old enough to remember when incongruency actually mattered. Teddy Schleifer, thank you so much for joining us. Up next, a new detention center in the swampy Florida Everglades has started housing migrants rounded up by the Trump administration as new questions are raised about whether the facility can withstand Florida weather. Got more on that story just ahead. The first group of immigrants arrived late last night at the new makeshift ice detention center being called Alligator Alcatraz, given its location deep in Florida's Everglades. When they arrived, there were still outstanding questions about the facility's preparedness given that within a day of its opening, Donald Trump's touring of the facility started flooding. While state and local officials have tried to assure the public the $450 million a year operation is state of the art, The Miami Herald reports that, quote, shortly after President Donald Trump left the brand new detention facility, a garden variety south Florida summer rainstorm started. The water seeped into the site, the one that earlier in the day the state's top emergency chief had boasted was ready to withstand the winds of a high end Category 2 hurricane and streamed all over electrical cables on the floor. Joining us now, NBC News senior national politics reporter Matt Dixon. And Florida's David Jolly is back with us. I know we say all the time, David Jolley, that the cruelty is the point. The terrible conditions that we are now reading about, they are clearly the point here. What do you make of this? Is it a stunt, a grab for attention? What is it?

[Nicole Wallace]

Sure. I mean, it is a very callous stunt. I think what is so unsettling to people is that they see the merchandise, the cruelty, the callousness, the celebration as somehow Hollywood theater and people are just rejecting that Republicans, Democrats alike, Look, I think the governor, Governor DeSantis executive order, emergency order should be rescinded. The airstrip should be returned to Miami Dade county under local control. The Everglades and the Miccosukee land should be protected. And we should be a state that commits to fighting crime and not fighting communities. And I think what we are about to see unfold is this question. I know, Lisa, you had a conversation yesterday on set. Who exactly is going to be housed here, Right? Because if these are violent criminals, listen, they should be held accountable, they should be deported. But this is not a maximum security facility. It's a chain link fence with about 20 cots in each cage. So are we talking about simply undocumented individuals whose only crime is trying to put food on the table by working a day's wage for a day's labor for a day's wage? Because I think we're seeing too many stories of that, right? The grandfather who's picked up or the mom whose daughter is ripped from her arms or the person who's doing nothing more than trying to come comply with their immigration enforcement officer being picked up. And I think this is where, look, I'm still a part of what I used to think was the Republican language of finding a pathway to people, for people to work. If that is the only thing that they are guilty of is trying to work to put food on the table for their family. I'm not sure that's the proper exercise of law enforcement resources. Maybe we should be going after drug running and violent crimes and frankly, politicians who steal $10 million from the state Medicaid program. Maybe that's where we should be focusing our criminal enforce. But instead we're watching this play out with theater. And what is unsettling again is this notion that somehow it's being celebrated by the president, our governor and others. I think people see through it for what it is.

[Alicia Menendez]

Matt, you had some great reporting. That really pulls back the curtain on some of that theater and the frustration that the Trump administration had with Governor DeSantis decision to give Fox News a tour of this facility. You write DeSantis upset Kristi Noem and Corey Lewandowse Lewandowski with his Fox News tour of the detention site. A Republican operative familiar with the process said Nome wanted an event for Tuesday and didn't want anyone having eyes on the site and needed to push until Tuesday because she was traveling. The DHS team asked DeSantis not to do his Friday event. The person added DeSantis did what was best for DeSantis and got out in front, angering both Noem and Lewandowski. Why that push and that pull, Matt Dixon.

[Nicole Wallace]

So there's, there's a few things to talk about here. There was zero pushback on that reporting in the sense that initially we were not sure, you know, if we totally had it. We reported that we really nailed it. And there's, there's been zero pushback from the White House, DHS or state level officials. So I think to some degree there is an actual sort of forward facing rift between DHS and DeSantis. I think they will get over it. I think the Trump administration truly supports what is happening in the Everglades. But Governor DeSantis really, really wanted to sort of take credit for it. He wanted, as part of his branding, the fight against illegal immigration, the fight against undocumented immigrants has been part of his political DNA. So I think he wanted to capture that for himself. So we did the Fox and Friends interview and it caught both federal officials, Kristi Noem, as you mentioned, but also some state officials we've talked to completely off guard because the roundtable was supposed to be at the roundtable last Tuesday when President Trump was there was supposed to be sort of the big rollout where everyone wanted to sort of take credit for this. So there's many layers to this. Obviously, the things we are talking about, about the humanitarian conditions and what this represents is is a huge conversation and it should be. But from the pure political side of it, I do think there was some of Governor DeSantis in Florida may be getting ahead of the feds and that has caused some degree of tension.

[Alicia Menendez]

So, Matt Dixon, there were some Democratic lawmakers headed to the facility. They're going to try to tour it today. Any update on whether or not they were allowed in?

[Nicole Wallace]

They were not. They were kind of expected. We've seen this in the past where members from, you know, a minority party we've seen at the federal level a few times where they go to tour a facility and don't get allowed access even though law allows it. Florida law, to be very clear, allows elected members of the state legislature to do unannounced tours of law enforcement facilities. It happens regularly at state prisons. It happens here all the time. But on this one, they cited they have not given specific law or statute reasons. They simply said it was an issue with security. And we don't have a lot of information yet as to what that security concern was. But the Democratic lawmakers I've talked to said, you know, basically their pushback was, well, if it's not safe for us to walk through it, why is it safe for undocumented immigrants being housed here? And so that's going to be sort of an ongoing, ongoing fight, ongoing struggle here. But, but those Democratic lawmakers, I believe there was five or six of them were not to the facility.

[Alicia Menendez]

Exactly why that oversight is necessary. Matt Dixon, David Jolly, thank you both so much for joining us. Because when we come back, a rosy headline out of the jobs report. But a peek inside the numbers shows economic uncertainty remains high as Donald Trump continues to attack Fed Chair Jerome Powell. We're going to get to all of that after a very quick break. A better than expected June jobs report today as employers added 147,000 new jobs, higher than expected and showing that the economy is holding steady despite self imposed headwinds from Donald Trump's trade policies. But that data still showed some signs of strain. As the Wall Street Journal notes today, quote, there were caveats. Job growth was heavily concentrated in state and local government and in health care. A number of other sectors, including manufacturing and professional and business services, were flat or shed jobs. Now, that's notable because, quote, President Trump has said that his tariffs will make America richer and bring back manufacturing jobs. Joining our conversation, Alex Haquez, the chief of policy and advocacy at Groundwork Collaborative. He previously served as the special assistant to the president for economic development at Biden's White House National Economic Council. Alex, good to see you. Your takeaways from the data today.

[Nicole Wallace]

Thanks for having me. So I think you're exactly right to say that on the face of things, this jobs report beat expectations. Wall street was anticipating about 110,000 jobs and the price private sector ADP data yesterday which showed a downturn in private employment had some people worried. But if you look under the hood here, you see real signs of weakness for the labor market going forward, particularly in the private sector. Almost half of the gains came from state and local government and a big chunk of them, nearly 40,000 job gains, came from health care. And President Trump has probably promise to bring back manufacturing, promise to bring back production jobs. And we've seen manufacturing jobs fall three out of the last four months, stagnating. And so if you're relying on health care jobs and the public sector to be picking up the slack in your labor market, the big ugly bill that Republicans just passed through the House and the Senate makes deep, deep cuts to state payments for Medicaid and food assistance. And I think those are going to be real headwinds for the labor market.

[Alicia Menendez]

Going forward, you have those headwinds. You have the headwinds that come with immigration. I want to talk to you about the relationship between Donald Trump and Jerome Powell. He's continued to rail against the Fed chair this week, urging him to resign because he's not cut interest rates. Today's job report, the fact that it was stronger than anticipated, does that have any impact on Powell's thinking?

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, relationship is a funny word. It seems to go mostly one way. I don't think that Chair Powell is going to be very focused on Trump's truth, social posts urging him to resign, but he is in a very difficult spot. The Fed will meet again at the end of July. Today's jobs report shows a labor market that again is still chugging along, although there are signs of weaknesses and the tariff headwinds, they persist. I saw Rafael Bostick, he's the regional federal governor for the Atlanta Federal Reserve today, saying that he expects persistent price pressures due to tariffs and other factors in the economy. And so where you have inflation, that's sticky and the labor market that's still doing well rolling along, it's going to be hard for the Fed to make cuts, especially when they don't know how trade policy is going to resolve. We're looking at a July 9 deadline to make some deals. Who knows what will happen by then? But I believe that Chair Powell is going to hold steady, not move rates down. And that's going to have impacts for those highly rate sensitive sectors like housing, which is already a real drag on the economy.

[Alicia Menendez]

How? Alex Hawkez, thank you so much for talking us through this jobs report.

[Nicole Wallace]

Thanks for having me, Lisa.

[Alicia Menendez]

Up next, what will likely be a very closely watched case in front of the Supreme Court next term. We're going to tell you what that is next. We are already planning for the next Supreme Court term because right out of the gate, the justices have agreed to wade back into the battle over transgender rights, taking up cases involving two trans students out of Idaho and West Virginia who challenged their state's bans on transgender athletes participating in girls and women's school and college sports. More than half the 50 states now have bans just like that. But legal challenges have not been decisively resolved and many are currently at least partially blocked by court order. If we're reading the tea leaves, just two weeks ago, the conservative majority delivered a major blow to trans rights by upholding a law that bans gender affirming care for young, young people. Oral arguments will likely take place later this year with a ruling expected next year. Stay on that. Still ahead for us, the opportunity for Democrats Congressman Jamie Raskin is going to be among our guests when the next hour of Deadline White House starts Right after this quick break.

[Nicole Wallace]

MSNBC presents the chart topping original podcast the Best People with Nicole Watts. This week, Nicole speaks with American soccer legend Abby Wambach and her wife, best selling author Glennon Doyle.

[Alicia Menendez]

We are in the middle of amazing dehumanization, so staying human and feeling it all and witnessing it all feels like the only antidote right now.

[Nicole Wallace]

The Best People with Nicole Wallace Listen now. For early access ad free listening and bonus content, subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Start your day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter. Each morning, read sharp insights from the voices you trust. Catch standout moments from your favorite shows. The second Trump administration has gone to.

[Alicia Menendez]

Unprecedented lengths to radically transform America.

[Nicole Wallace]

Stay up to speed with our latest podcasts and documentaries and get fresh perspectives from experts shaping the news. It's everything you love about MSNBC delivered to your inbox. Sign up [e-mail] how can you prepare to celebrate legislation that will undermine the quality of life of everyday Americans? It's not just a hypothetical. It's not just hyperbole. It's not just hype. It will happen everyday. Americans will be hurt by the one big ugly bill.

[Alicia Menendez]

Hi good everyone. I'm Alicia Menendez in for Nicole Wallace. It is now 5 o' clock here in New York. In the face of a Republican majority which was just about to pass Donald Trump's spending and tax bill, House Democrats did the only thing they could do. They stood up and they spoke out for the American people. That meant Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries taking his, quote, sweet time calling out the bill that would, among other things, force nearly 12 million Americans to lose their health care. Jeffries broke the record for the longest speech on the House floor, coming in at a full 8 hours and 44 minutes. The record was previously held by former Speaker Kevin McCarthy. The House has since voted on the bill since Jeffries finished speaking. The legislation did pass and it will head to Donald Trump's desk for signage tomorrow. Axios reports about Jefferies marathon Speech One of Jeffrey's central motivations, numerous Democratic sources told Axios, was to ensure that Republicans were forced to pass the bill during daylight hours and not in the dead of night. Here is a little more from his record breaking speech.

[Nicole Wallace]

I asked the question, if Republicans were so proud of this one big ugly bill, why did debate begin at 3:28am in the morning? People will die tens of thousands perhaps year after year after year as a result of the Republican assault on the health care of the American people. I'm sad. I never thought that I'd be on the House floor saying that this is a crime scene and House Democrats want no part of it. No part of it. The American people will not get over it. But they will get even next November. That's what's going to happen.

[Alicia Menendez]

The House minority leader's speech was an answer to what Democratic voters have been begging their leaders to do now for months. Fight harder. Get on offense. The Washington Post reporting that Democrats now plan to focus on the bills deeply unpopular spending cuts as they try to take back the House in 2026. Quote, Democrats who uniformly oppose the legislation said their message is simple. Republicans are offering tax breaks to billionaires on the backs of working class Americans. Democrats said many of Republicans own statements will feature prominently in their ads and on the campaign trail as they seek to define the bill to voters. Congressman Jamie Raskin said we're just going to try to get the message out to the country about what's in this monstrosity of a bill and we could do no better than to quote the Republicans who said they'd rather leave politics than to have anything to do with it. People like Thom Tillis from North Carolina, Don Bacon from Nebraska, even Elon Musk who says it's an absolute monstrosity will start a new political party if they really go forward with this. That is where we start this hour with Democratic congressman from Maryland, Jamie Raskin. Congressman, let's so let's start with what this means for the American people and then what this means for both political parties.

[Nicole Wallace]

It's a nightmare. 17 million people are going to lose their health insurance overwhelmingly within the Medicaid program, but some also from the Affordable Care act. And everybody's co pays, deductibles and premiums are going to be soaring after this. It's been predicted that there will be hundreds of closures of hospitals, mostly in rural areas. There will be hundreds of nursing homes that are forced to close too because they are so dependent on Medicaid. Basically the Republican Party just pulled the plug on a whole public health ecosystem organized around Medicaid and people who depend on it. And that's millions and millions of people. At the same time, they are dismantling large parts of the SNAP program and nutritional benefits that, you know, the working poor get. And that also is going to be very punishing for tens of millions of people across the country who are looking at Either a complete cutoff or a dramatic reduction in the food assistance that they get. So we see it as an act of mass cruelty and collective punishment for no reason. All of it is to fund the huge tax breaks to the wealthiest people in the country while they add three and a half trillion dollars or four trillion dollars to the debt. And Democrats said repeatedly throughout the debate over the course of today, but also this last week and the last several weeks, we never want to hear the words debt or deficit out of your mouths again. We're not going to entertain any more lectures from you because they are the biggest budget busting, deficit doves adding to the national debt that anybody's ever seen.

[Alicia Menendez]

Well, to your point about. I don't want to hear it. Let's take a listen to some of the Republicans who talked about how terrible this bill was, got no changes to it and then voted for it anyway.

[Nicole Wallace]

What the Senate did is unconscionable. What they did to our bill was unconscionable. I'll vote against it here and I'll vote against it on the floor. You're going to hear a lot about the tax cuts, but the deficit. Nobody's talking about the deficit.

[Alicia Menendez]

Nobody.

[Nicole Wallace]

I got it. The tax cuts are important. We are going to get the tax cuts done in some fashion. But we cannot saddle our children and our grandchildren with an exploding national debt. Do I like this bill? No.

[Alicia Menendez]

Because I tried to take care of the Alaska's interests. But I know, I know that in many parts of the country there are Americans that are not going to be.

[Nicole Wallace]

Advantaged by this bill.

[Alicia Menendez]

So the ad, it writes itself, right? You split screen what they said and then them casting their vote in favor of this legislation. How do Democrats seize the opportunity here to hold Republicans actions against against them?

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, I think our minority leader showed us how to do it today. He was super effective when he actually called out the names of Republicans like David Valadao in California, for example, or Chip Roy or others who had attacked the bill and said it was, you know, different forms of indigestible or unconscionable and then went ahead and voted for it. Particularly egregious were the Republicans in the more moderate swing districts who are terrified that they're going to be facing a political tidal wave coming in 2026. And for good reason. I think it is coming. But what they did was they put their names on a whole bunch of letters beseeching the Senate Republicans to remove the Medicaid provisions or make this less harsh on working people and hakeem pointed out the absurdity of this. It passed by one vote in the House. Any one of them could have stopped the entire bill. Instead, they voted for it. It goes over to the Senate, and then they sign these just completely performative letters so they can show them during the campaign saying that they begged the Senate to remove the provisions that they had voted for when it came out of the House.

[Alicia Menendez]

I hope they didn't waste money on stamps for those letters. You know, what's interesting to me is people have been following along with what's happening on Capitol Hill, and there's been quite a bit of coverage of this in local markets. Let's take a listen to how it's being framed. We're talking about the most vulnerable patients.

[Nicole Wallace]

In the state of Maine, and if.

[Alicia Menendez]

They don't get their bills paid, then.

[Nicole Wallace]

We can't take care of them. North Carolina Governor Josh Stein blasting the bill, which is said to have deep cuts to the state's Medicaid program and could potentially slash SNAP benefits for 1.4 million North Carolinians.

[Alicia Menendez]

I think this bill is horrible for Alaskans. She says the bill reaches beyond health.

[Nicole Wallace]

Care, will affect health care.

[Alicia Menendez]

It will affect our economy. This federal bill has energy aspects reducing the use of solar and wind, which benefits Alaskan's energy bill. I also just want to highlight the last person you heard speaking there is the Senate speaker out of Alaska. She's a Republican. She's not even coming at this from a partisan lens. She's simply saying, I looked at this and it's no good. Listen, I think part of the reason that the narrative matters here and the media coverage matters here is because Republicans did stack this legislation so that the tax breaks come first and then a bunch of the cuts to the social safety net come later, such that people will begin to feel the worst parts of this bill likely after midterms. Right. Make sure one, that I'm getting that right. And two, how you break through if the experience isn't immediate.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, there's so many different elements to the bill, and you're right, that they definitely, in deference to some of these nervous Republicans, had said, okay, we'll make sure the really catastrophic stuff happens right after the 2026 election. But there's enough dire things that are going to happen before that that people are going to get the idea. And that's our job to go out and educate. But your point is correct that there are a lot of red states and red districts that are suddenly put into play as contested terrain Right now. The Louisiana Legislature, which is not only Republican controlled, but has super majorities to basically do whatever they want, wrote a resolution of protest against what was happening, saying that Louisiana is a state that depends on Medicaid and they shouldn't do this. It's like what's happening in Alaska. So we've got to make sure that we're doing everything in our power to recruit and then back those Democratic candidates in those red districts and red states. We cannot yield a single inch of the United States of America to the people who would do this to our country.

[Alicia Menendez]

Congressman Jamie Raskin, your colleagues are currently taking planes, trains and automobiles in order to get home. It is one of those days when being a representative from Maryland has its perks. Thank you so much for spending some of your time with us. We appreciate it.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yes. And I look forward to seeing everybody on the fourth of July parades.

[Alicia Menendez]

Thank you, sir. Let's bring into our conversation President of Media Matters for America, Angela Carson and former HUD secretary under President Obama and MSNBC political analyst Julian Castro. So, Angela, you and I spoke earlier this week about the fact that Fox News has kind of been hiding the ball on the Medicaid piece of this. They know it is not going to be popular with their viewers. When does it become real? And how surprised are they to learn what is actually in this legislation?

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, there's going to be a deep skepticism and I think what you just said at the end of your conversation with Congressman Raskin is probably the most important thing looking ahead, which is that the narrative matters and that so much of the real harms and consequences that are reflected in the polling and in the optimistic assessments of how people are going to naturally vote or respond to the, to the effects of this bill because they're backloaded after the midterms. We have to be really deliberate and intentional about that because part of what's going to happen is that the very same engine, the narrative engine that, you know, MAGA media that sort of functioned as a real whip here to keep Republicans in line and sort of salted the earth or at least helped create some, some ability for them to politically move it, even vote this in the first place, by denying, by lying, by saturating the landscape with misinformation about this bill or getting people to just accept it, especially Republicans, it's going to do the exact same thing going forward. Because once even the slightest bit of consequences start to kick in, that MAGA media and that large narrative engine is now going to switch from boosting the bill to deflecting those consequences onto anything and everything else. And that's the part that's so key about this. People are going to start to feel effects, and like the congressman said, they're going to certainly feel some of the effects well before the midterms. But then the real thing, and this has been the case with the Trump administration the entire time so far, is how is that harm going to be connected to the actions of the Republicans or to the. Or to the Trump administration? That's the piece that's always missing, and it gets very fuzzy when they talk about it. I promise you, ad are not going to do that. We live in an environment right now where the right gets to control the terms of most of the discussions. And that deflection mechanism that's about to spin up is the most. Is the most critical thing here. And I really worry about that because I haven't seen a seismic shift let yet in the larger structures of the information landscape or in MAGA media's inability to execute on that very function. So I'm not trying to be pessimistic about it, but I think we really need to be a lot more precise about how those harms are going to be connected to the actions that Republicans took in the last 24 hours with passing this legislation.

[Alicia Menendez]

Julia, I think what Angelo is referencing is the fact that we now live in an attention economy and a fractured media environment where getting any of these messages to break through becomes additionally complex. I want to take a listen to just a little bit more what Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries had to say today, and then we'll talk about it on the other side.

[Nicole Wallace]

Incredible. To me, all of the promises that were made by some people in this town that the top priority was going to be to lower the high cost of living in the United States of America. And then all of last year ran away from Project 2025. Come on, come on. Acted like it didn't exist. And then, Mr. Speaker, people come to town. They're in the majority now. And every single part of the extremism that we've seen unleashed on the American people is connected to Project 2025.

[Alicia Menendez]

So I have two questions for you, Julian. One is a tactical question about understanding the attention environment we are in, which is, I think it is telling that Hakeem Jeffries thought it was important enough to make sure that this conversation extended into the morning, that this vote did not happen in the dead of night, that he understood there had to be an element of theatrics in order to break that dynamic. But I Think the substance of what he is saying there is also interesting, right? This is what you were promised. You were promised an emphasis on affordability. What you are getting Instead is Project 2025. Talk to me about both pieces side by side, the tactic and then the actual narrative that you're beginning to see emerge from Democrats.

[Nicole Wallace]

Both of those are going to be fundamental to Democrats succeeding in 2026. And look, I think it's a good sign, right, that, that, that Hakeem Jeffries and others have the sophistication and the sense of nuance of the attention economy that we're dealing in. And also the fact that, look, today people find the news that they want on so many different platforms, not only TV and social media, but others. And you have to speak to that. You have to be savvy about that. And Democrats, let's face it, had not been that great about that compared to the Republican right wing ecosystem that's out there and that Angelo spoke about. And so that's going to be a challenge for Democrats. They're going to have to go everywhere, they're going to have to strengthen their own channels and platforms to be able to deliver that message. And then when it comes to the message itself, you've got to put it in the terms that people understand. And you know, today watching msnbc, one of the things that I was really impressed by were the stories that were told by everyday people out there, how they're affected. That's what the Democrats have to lead with. Not the words of politicians, not put in partisan terms, not, not even to talk about Project 2025, that I think most regular people don't even know what that is. But you know, the, the adult daughter who cannot afford to have her mom in a nursing home anymore, somebody that loses their health care in a dire emergency situation, someone who can't afford a college opportunity that they've been waiting for because look what they did to PE grants. Putting it in those everyday terms, letting the American people speak to what's happened to them, what's going to happen. You also have the challenge of timing. Of course, that's been pointed out. And that's, I think, Alicia, you know, I really want people to focus on that. Why in the world, if they Republicans really thought that they were helping people, would they have made really the effects of this on the working class, the middle class, happen after the 2026 elections? It's because they know that they're pulling a fast one and they're harming the American people. That's the best evidence that Democrats also have. And then finally there's nothing new. This is the same old, same old for Republicans. They've been serving their corporate masters for a very long time. For all of the talk about Donald Trump being a working class president and this and that, that is a bill of goods. They have always first and foremost served big corporations and the super wealthy. And they showed that again today.

[Alicia Menendez]

I will layer in there. I heard one sort of echo from Democrats, almost a call to people who might have voted for Trump to say, we understand this is what you thought you were voting for. This is what you are getting instead. If you want to come home, we are here. Angela Corazon, thank you so much for joining us. Julian, you are sticking with me when we return. You might have missed it, but Donald Trump is once again betraying the ideals of America. He did it in an interview over the weekend. And next guest calls it insulting and an embarrassing attempt at moral equivalence between democracy and authoritarianism. What Trump said, why it matters. That's next. Also ahead, outrage over conditions inside Seekat the maximum security prison in El Salvador where Trump is sending migrants. Lawyers for Kamara Brigo Garcia saying he was beaten and tortured while he was in custody, a far cry from what justice in America should look like. And inside the Trump Justice Department's new efforts to potentially use criminal charges to prosecute election officials. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Stay with us. With a shrug and a smirk, Donald Trump said something so deeply un American that it briefly left FOX FOX News host Maria Bartiroma speechless. Watch as he downplays tensions with China and smears the country he's supposed to lead, making what our next guest says is a moral equivalence between the United States and authoritarian regimes.

[Nicole Wallace]

We did just arrest three or four Chinese nationals who tried to bring a.

[Alicia Menendez]

Pathogen into the country that gets people sick and destroys food supply.

[Nicole Wallace]

We've got hacking. You don't know where that came from, though. I mean, did that come from the country or is that three wackos that happen to carry something, you know, you just don't? Well, there was one that he signed that he would be one of them.

[Alicia Menendez]

Signed a paper saying that he would value Mao Zedong's value system.

[Nicole Wallace]

So there was that and then they hacked and they hack into our telecom system.

[Alicia Menendez]

They've been stealing intellectual property. They fentanyl Covid. I mean, you know, all of this stuff. So how do you negotiate with obviously a bad actor?

[Nicole Wallace]

You don't think we do that on economics? You don't think we do that to them? We do. So we do a lot of things.

[Alicia Menendez]

That's the way the world works.

[Nicole Wallace]

That's the way the world works. It's a nasty world. And then you just do it. We do. Well, we made a lot of money with this trade deal. You know, I do a trade deal, if it works. We made a lot of money with the trade deal.

[Alicia Menendez]

Tom Nichols writes in the Atlantic. It is a familiar narrative from Trump, showing zero interest in leading with a national sense of pride and presenting great danger to our democracy. Quote, he tells Americans that because the world is nasty, all that shining city on a hilltop, it's just stupid. And all that matters is making some deals to get them stuff they need. Meanwhile, he paints America as something out of a medieval woodcut of hell, implicitly warning that he can't really extinguish the lava and the fires, promising to at least put on a show of punishing some of the demons. This nihilism and helplessness is poisonous to a democracy, a system that only works when citizens take responsibility for their government. Joining our conversation, staff writer at the Atlantic and a contributor to the Atlantic Daily Newsletter, Tom Nichols. Julian is back with us. Tom, thank you so much for. For being with us, for bringing us your writing. Talk more about this danger, this Trump creating a narrative of despair. What happens then to our democracy?

[Nicole Wallace]

The idea is to get people to disengage and to say everything's terrible. The only thing that can fix it is, you know, a strong man with dictatorial powers. You know, the country's going to hell because it's all crime and misery and drugs. I mean, he really has no interest in telling Americans that they live a good life, that they live in a free and safe country, that we live in a country with high standard, with a very high standard of living. Because if he says all that, then what's the argument for giving him the kind of dictatorial powers that he wants? He has to engage in this narrative. And the other reason he does it is because, in a way, it's because he's lazy. If he admitted that China is a problem or that Russia is a threat, then he would have to do something about it. And it's easier to just say, well, we all suck, we're all terrible, and we do bad things, too, because then that gets him off the hook for doing his job, which is to be the President of the United States and defend this country.

[Alicia Menendez]

Well, let me pick up Tom on what you're saying there, because to your point, it isn't the first time that we have heard Donald Trump liken the United States to authoritarian regimes around the world. Just watch.

[Nicole Wallace]

Do you respect Putin? I do respect him.

[Alicia Menendez]

Do you?

[Nicole Wallace]

Why? Well, I respect a lot of people, but that doesn't mean I'm going to get along with him. He's a leader of his country. I say it's better to get along with Russia than not. Putin's a killer. A lot of killers. We got a lot of killers. Why you think our country's so innocent?

[Alicia Menendez]

Right. Echoes there of what we just heard with Maria Bartirumo. But that was 2017. It was about two weeks into his first term. What, when you listen to him in interviews now, is different.

[Nicole Wallace]

One thing is that he's, I think he has trouble kind of following this narrative. I mean, he needs to just get out of the conversation and win the moment. Because when Bartiromo says, well, we have all these issues with China and all these things going on, he doesn't really want to kind of pursue that because it's almost like he's not able to follow the conversation. So he just says, you know what? We're terrible, too. And that kind of ends it. So I think the thing you see in both of those clips is fear. He doesn't want to cross Putin, he doesn't want to cross xi. But also this time around, there's almost a tiredness to it of, you know, I don't care about this stuff. I just need to kind of win this moment in the argument with you, the journalist, you know, with you, Maria, and get out of this, because I don't want to talk about all this stuff because I can't really follow it.

[Alicia Menendez]

Well, there's that, Julian. Tom also writes this. If Trump admits that the United States is a far better nation than Russia or China, with a heritage of liberty and democracy, democracy that imposes unique responsibilities on America as the leader of the free world, then he would have to do something. You'd have to take the hard path of working with a national security team to forge policies that are in the long term interests of the United States rather than the short term interests of Donald Trump. What does that then mean, Julian, for American foreign policy?

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, I think all of those things that Tom pointed out, the laziness, I think the false moral equivalence, and when it comes to foreign policy, really, the, the refusal to articulate a robust foreign policy, a logical one, and to put mainstream American values right at the center of that. And look at how much time he spent attacking NATO and here at home, what he's done with an anti, with an authoritarian impulse to it. Here's a president that. That every day, it seems like every day these days, we read about a new political opponent that he's creating, whether it's threatening to deport Zoran Mamdani or Elon Musk, you name it. And so whether it's foreign policy, whether it's here at home, he doesn't live up to those values. This is not a president that concerns himself with that.

[Alicia Menendez]

I always. We sort of talk about this, Tom Nichols, as though there is the period of Trump and then there is potentially the after times when we will have to reckon with what Trumpism has done to America. And I think this question of having a national leader who refuses to assert that America has an important role to play on the national stage, even if we survive into those after times, that seeps into the American psyche. And I don't know one, how you undo it and how you then rebuild this sense of national pride in who we were, who we are, and who it is that we can be.

[Nicole Wallace]

The damage here is generational. It's going to take a long time, because Donald Trump has convinced a lot of people, and I think a lot of people agree with Donald Trump because they feel they have to as well, but he's convinced a lot of Americans that we really are just no better than China or Russia or any other terrible dictatorship in the world. And you're right, that does kind of just seep into you and stay there for a long time. But I think the hope at least, is that after Trump leaves office, that a new generation of leaders step forward and put these values again at the center of our foreign policy. You know, the United States went through a terrible time in the 1970s. A lot of people lost faith in the country. And through the 1980s and into the 1990s, we had presidents and leaders of both parties stepping forward to say no, that we are a noble and good country, we are capable of doing good things in the world. We are always mindful of our own shortcomings, but they don't define us. It can be done, but it takes a long time, and it's going to take a long time after this, because Trump has made this kind of central to his political movement that, you know, sort of, although his slogan is Make America great, there's also kind of central to this movement. Always remember that America is terrible. And that's going to take a while to dissipate.

[Alicia Menendez]

Tom Nichols, the moment we all read this piece that you have written, we wanted to speak to you about it. So thank you so much for making the time to be with us. Julian Castro, my friend, thank you as always. When we return, we're learning more, hearing more about the brutal conditions inside C cop prison in El Salvador. But Camaro Brego Garcia's attorney says he was subjected to severe beatings and psychological torture. Got those new details after a very short break. We're learning new details today about the horrifying and inhumane consequences of Donald Trump's immigration crackdown. Attorneys for Kilmara Brego Garcia say he suffered severe beatings and psychological torture during his weeks long detention at the notorious Sicat prison in El Salvador when he was mistakenly deported from the United States. In a new complaint, the attorney say Abrego Garcia was, quote, kicked in the legs with boots, struck on his head and arms to make him change clothes faster, struck with wooden batons with visible bruises and lumps all over his body the next day. And along with 20 other Salvadorans, quote, forced to kneel from approximately 9pm to 6am with guards striking anyone who fell from exhaustion. With prison officials repeatedly telling Abrego Garcia they transfer him to the cells containing gang members, but they assured him would tear him apart. The new details were filed as part of a federal lawsuit filed by Abrego Garcia's wife against the Trump administration which just yesterday disparaged Abrego Garcia. Suggested that his lawyer's claims were a, quote, false sob story. Joining me at the table, NPR's immigration correspondent Jasmine Garsd. Also joining us, founder of Define American and author of Dear Notes of an Undocumented Citizen, Jose Antonio Vargas. Jose, let's start with you. Your reaction to what we are learning about what Abrego Garcia says he suffered after being being mistakenly deported.

[Nicole Wallace]

Horrible. Just absolutely horrible. And you know what I keep thinking about is that's just one example. And with what happened in Congress today, imagine what's going to be happening in detention centers. Of course, that was in El Salvador, but here in the United States, what's going to be happening under our watch? And what are we not going to know?

[Alicia Menendez]

Yeah, what are we not going to know? The fact that DHS was so upset about this. This is what they posted. Once again, the media is falling all over themselves to defend Camaro Brigo Garcia. This illegal alien is an MS.13 gang member, alleged human trafficker and a domestic abuser. The media's sympathetic narrative about this criminal illegal gang member has completely fallen apart. Yet they continue to peddle his sob story. So lots there. I mean, there is new reporting about the fact that they are actually extraditing Ms. 13 gang members, leaders back to El Salvador as part of a deal with Bukele. This has never actually been about national security, keeping America or El Salvador safe for that matter. But you've done lots of reporting on detention centers. We might be talking about what is happening in CECOT and El Salvador, but it has shades of what happens here in the United States.

[Nicole Wallace]

Oh, absolutely.

[Alicia Menendez]

I mean, first of all, with seekot, what is surprising about the brutality is that it's not surprising anyone, anyone who has covered CCOT knows about CKOT's brutality. We've known for years. And there's absolutely echoes of that here. I mean, new data shows that there are 56,000 people in detention, in immigration detention approximately right now, about half of those people don't have a criminal conviction. That is 30,000 people who are in immigration detention right now who do not have a criminal conviction. Now, of the other half who do have a criminal conviction, one of the major crimes listed is traffic offenses. And we are seeing that as this.

[Nicole Wallace]

Push to put more and more people.

[Alicia Menendez]

In detention continues, conditions, it might not be seekot, but conditions in detention centers, immigration detention centers throughout the US are horrific. Jose, you've recently returned to your 2018 book, Dear America, writing that Trump's second term promises to be even worse. This is what you write. Meanwhile, it's hard to imagine the American economy without undocumented immigrants. Look around you. Construction, agriculture, hospitality, manufacturing, food, service. America runs on undocumented labor. We do the jobs that Americans don't want to do, and we do them largely without a safety net. You and I have had many conversations. Immigrants are more than their labor. We are members of, of community. We are members of faith group. We are the families your kids go to school with. And at the same time, the economy is in some ways the easiest way to articulate the lie.

[Nicole Wallace]

And you know what I keep thinking about is especially with what just happened in Congress today. What is the cost of your protection from day laborers, farmers, college students? Because, you know, we've shackled and locked up dreamers. College students were arrested also for traffic offenses, right? With what happened today, $45 billion for building new detention centers, in addition to 14 billion more for deprecation operations. How much more money are we going to spend? And you know what I'm, you know what I'm not hearing, Alicia, is how do we solve this? How do we actually, how do we actually. Are we as taxpayers because undocumented people also pay taxes, Right?

[Alicia Menendez]

Are we just going to keep spending.

[Nicole Wallace]

And spending and spending without actually asking ourselves what the solutions are or as journalists. And by the way, kudos to all the journalists doing this work. All you have to do is follow the money. Right? Follow the money. Who is going to be benefiting from the fact that we're spending billions of dollars more? We're going to lock up from 56,000 people, we're going to have 100,000 detention bets. Private, private prison firms are going to reap major financial benefits from all of this spending.

[Alicia Menendez]

You, you have a political moment where the conversation is not about how you fix this. And even Democrats who might be interested in having the conversation that Jose just laid out are very busy playing defense. Andrea Flores from Forward US posted this today on X. If Chris Van Holland had not gone to El Salvador, defying the political wisdom at the time, Kilmar wouldn't be back in the US and we wouldn't have confirmation of the torture at sicot. Now the question is who will fight to save the lives of the 200 plus men still trapped there? Who will have that fight? And who will fight for everyone who's being round up in Los Angeles right now, in some cases nannies, people who sell flowers on the street streets who to your point have no criminal record? Is there the political will to make sure that those people are not forgotten? I'm glad that you read that tweet.

[Nicole Wallace]

That brought up those other 200 plus men.

[Alicia Menendez]

I have a name written down in my notebook. Andri Jose Hernandez Romero. He is a gay makeup artist from Venezuela who presented himself he's in his early 30s.

[Nicole Wallace]

He presented himself as at the San.

[Alicia Menendez]

Diego border where I've worked a lot.

[Nicole Wallace]

In he was asking for asylum because.

[Alicia Menendez]

He is a gay man leaving persecution in Venezuela.

[Nicole Wallace]

He is one of the men who was sent there.

[Alicia Menendez]

And of those 200, by the way, we now know that they mostly don't have criminal offenses, proven criminal charges. I think about Andri a lot and.

[Nicole Wallace]

What he must be going through if.

[Alicia Menendez]

Somebody like Kilmar went through that. What is Andre going through? If I recall correctly, it's been about 110 days since he was disappeared. His family has not heard from him and they are right to have many questions. Jasmine Garz, Jose Antonio Vargas, thank you both so much for joining us. Jose's book Dear America is out now in paperback. When we return, how the Trump Justice Department is looking into bringing criminal charges against state and local election officials, all in service of a conspiracy theory with no basis in fact. That new reporting after a short break. New reporting from the New York Times on the Trump administration's weaponization of the doj. Now looking at ways to go after election officials if the administration, quote, determines they have not sufficiently safeguarded their computer systems. That's according to people familiar with the discussions who spoke to the Times on the condition of anonymity to describe internal discussions. They go on to report that, quote. In recent days, senior officials have directed Justice Department lawyers to examine the ways in which a hypothetical failure by state or local officials to follow security standards for electronic voting could be charged as a crime, appearing to assume a kind of criminally negligent mismanagement of election systems. Already, the department has started to contact election officials across the country asking for information on voting in the state. Those sources also told the Times that this move is not based on any new evidence, but rather on Trump's unsubstantiated and we should note, legally disproven claims of voter fraud and foreign manipulation. With us, former US Attorney and former Deputy Assistant Attorney General Harry Littman. All right, Harry, just so that I am clear, this entire idea is predicated on a hypothetical, is that correct?

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, that's a nice way to put it, Alicia. It's predicated on a canard, a false claim of widespread fraud that they've been trying to propound since before 2020. Honestly, I think the biggest risk to the survival of our democratic system is if Trump can somehow do, by corrupting the legal machinery at his disposal, what he tried to do illegally in 2020. And this is a first step to doing just that. And he's putting pressure notice on third parties, the way he has done in with universities, the way he has done with law firms. And these are, you know, the retirees who police our polls and are civic minded. They're going to get the message. Well, you better be careful, careful, because if there's any allegation of fraud, you're, you're in big trouble. Personally. It's just putting pressure and from one side only, but yes, absolutely, 100% the same false claim. And one final point, it's not even happening in DOJ. This is somewhere in the, the catacombs of Project 2025. They've cooked this up, they've ordered DOJ to try to substantiate it. But I know the code book DOJ works with, what could be the possible crime, as you say, if someone makes a mistake somehow, which we know again and again is not happening, there wouldn't be a crime there. So this is really a way of intimidating and taking a first step to trying to commandeer the elections themselves. My number one fear on the horizon.

[Alicia Menendez]

Let me just underline something you said there in the form of the reporting from from the Times about what lawyers are currently doing. A number of lawyers have struggled to find a criminal statute to match the Trump administration's demands. Some of the department are already beginning to reach out to election officials across the country. Late last month, prosecutors from the criminal division contacted at least two states with broad requests about information sharing, according to a person familiar with the request. I mean, if you are election officials, do you have any choice but to comply for this request for information, understanding what it is they are looking to do?

[Nicole Wallace]

You sure do. But it's hard to assert it in the dynamic that we have and the sort of bullying of the federal government. But Alicia, you know that there's a principle that says A, state and localities manage elections, not the feds, and B, more generally, the feds can't try to commandeer is the legal word. But for states to kind of play ball with them on their programs. So anybody would be would be justified in saying, no, I don't think so. You go get a court order that tells me I have to cooperate with you, but that's not how it will work. Is the fear on the ground where, you know, state election officials are going to be cowed and worried, oh, we better sort of lean in that direction or we could be looking at trouble.

[Alicia Menendez]

Where do you think this is headed, Harry?

[Nicole Wallace]

I fear that it's headed toward a broader attempt to commandeer elections to make. My number one fear that keeps me up at night is the Supreme Court greenlight some emergency powers for the president that they give him deference so they don't second guess the predicates and he somehow makes the toe totally bogus assertion that the elections are fraudulent, etc. And then as a first step to literally taking them over. Where this is headed, I think is exactly nowhere. There is no crime in the federal books that you can bring against these people. But it's this is Project 2025. It's in the reporting there, Lisa. And it's just step one in how do we do legally what we weren't able to manage to do ill illegally in 2020. That's how I see it.

[Alicia Menendez]

Harry Lippman and that highlighter you keep flashing around at me, I want to know what that highlighter is for. Thank you so much for spending some time with us.

[Nicole Wallace]

You almost went to law school.

[Alicia Menendez]

I love it and I am flush with highlighters. We're going to sneak in a quick break. We'll be right back. The thing about the MAGA movement is they're the worst winners in human history.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, you're like a world class athlete.

[Alicia Menendez]

Have you ever seen anyone win and act like such a jerk as the MAGA people?

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, I've seen it, but they're not my friends. Right. They're not my people.

[Alicia Menendez]

Yeah.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, the lack of humility in the winning of, of the election and where we're at right now is astounding. And it's just, it's giving me the.

[Alicia Menendez]

Big old ick is what I would say. That was global soccer icon Abby Wambach. She and her wife, the best selling author Glennon Doyle, are Nicole's guests on this week's episode of the Best People. You can hear their whole conversation by scanning the QR code that's right there on your screen or by going to MSNBC TheBestPeople. You can also watch this week's episode on YouTube. And tomorrow night at 8 Eastern, a special TV presentation of the best people right here on MSNBC. You can watch Nicole's conversation with our friend and colleague Rachel Maddow. That is tomorrow, 8:00pm Eastern right here on MSNBC. We're going to sneak it, sneak in one more quick break. We'll be right back. Thanks for spending part of this Thursday with us. We are so grateful.