Nicole Wallace (3:47)

Inflation has gone up. It's at 3% now, up from 2% in April when the tariffs were imposed.

Rick Stengel (3:55)

No, no, no, no, they weren't. So inflation hasn't gone up. And Kristen, the one thing that we're.

Alex Wagner (4:02)

Not going to do is do what.

Rick Stengel (4:04)

The Biden administration did and tell the American people they don't know how they feel.

Alex Wagner (4:11)

That soundbite is next to gaslighting in the dictionary right now. And you know what? You can kill all the data you want. People that go to the grocery store, people that shop for clothes, people that shop for goods, people that buy strollers, people that buy car seats, people that buy walkers, they know everything is more expensive. It's where we start the hour. Some of our favorite experts and friends with us at the table, Democratic strategist Columbia University professor Msnow political analyst Basil Smichels back and former assistant U.S. attorney president of the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights, Maya Wiley is back. Also joining us, Mississippi, now senior political analyst, contributing host on Pod Save America and host of the podcast Runaway Country. Alex Wagner is here for the hour. Alex, let me start with the erasure of data and facts. I think Rachel, in the or maybe the early months of the Trump presidency did a thing on what happens when a government tries to erase statistics. And I remember thinking what they doing that they have done that. And the whole bad bet on the economy is literally all you have to do. And it's clear that Trump and Besant don't do the shopping in their families or they're online or in the grocery store. But all you have to do, especially if you order online, you can see what you spend day to day, week to week and everyone's bills are up.

Nicole Wallace (5:33)

Yeah, I mean I just would really, I would hesitate to set, send Scott Besson out ever again to talk about price. Like every time he does it it's like in the encyclopedia under like out of touch billionaire. It's a picture of Scott Bessant. But I digress. I mean the issue, I hope they.

Alex Wagner (5:49)

Keep sending him out though because I think last time it was like, it was like it was about pumping gas. And I like, like, do you think he's ever, I mean if anyone sees him pumping gas, take a picture. Yeah, that's right. That's right.

Nicole Wallace (6:02)

Just, just, I mean, or keep doing it. Right. It's also so indicative of how this administration understands the plight of most of the country when it comes to costs. I will say erasing the numbers is the, I mean truly the ultimate head bearings in the sand maneuver. Just because people continue to spend money and don't have enough to buy the things that they used to be able to buy. And until and unless you're going to get rid of currency, which who knows with this administration, I think you have a there I will say, Nicole, the, the, the obsession with the cost of Thanksgiving turkey, which is something Trump has been talking about a lot lately and a lot of ink has been spilled about whether turkeys are more expensive or not. We are talking about big kind of structural problems within the American community, American economy that have so much more to do with things beyond like a, a piece of foul. We're talking about groceries writ large. We're talking about housing. Gen Z doesn it's ever going to be able to buy a house like it. Like an entire generation of Americans never believe they will be able to be homeowners. And health insurance, which was what the massive standoff and 40 odd day government shutdown was all about and for which Trump has like zero plan and the Republican Party has never had a plan. Those are three huge structural problems in the American economy that have bedeviled both Democrats and Republicans alike for some time. And now they're on the President's plate. He has done nothing but exacerbate them and make them worse. He has neither the skills, the smarts nor the people to address them. And so you can pretend like the numbers aren't numbering but the, the, the Issues that, that are plaguing the American public. The feeling of economic insecurity and anxiety. That is real. Regardless of whether you take, you know, a drug. You put the, the reality on a dry erase board and erase it or not.

Alex Wagner (7:51)

Okay, so you said turkey. I'm gonna do the turkey here, please. You're right. He's obsessed with turkeys. Okay. And it's a complicated story about turkeys. I'm gonna tell you the story. So these are the prices for everything but the turkey on Thanksgiving dinner. Okay. Cranberry Sauce is up 38.4%. Gravy, 31%. More expensive this year than last year. Stuffing mix, don't knock it till you try it. Up 13%. Buttermilk biscuits up 8%. Pastry pie shells up 7%. Whipped topping, 6.7%. Higher. Green beans, 3% higher. Sweet corn, 2% higher. Potatoes, 1% higher. Okay, here's the turkey story. A froz frozen young turkey is actually down 2.3% and pumpkin pie mix is down 5%. Here's the little asterisk though, on turkeys. It is despite a sharp rise in wholesale turkey prices, which are up about 75% over the past year to $1.71 per pound, according to Purdue University's College of Agriculture. Stores are offering holiday birds at bargain rates to bring customers in for other purchases, which as I just read, are all up. This aggressive pricing strategy known as turkeys as a quote loss leader means stores may actually lose money on each bird sold, but hope to make up the difference with other higher margin items in shoppers carts. As you just revealed, you may or may not be cooking a turkey tomorrow. That is the story on turkeys.

Maya Wiley (9:24)

My brother shows up at that turkey is getting cooked. But listen, this is the point is. And Besant was really beside himself and saying, you know, we're not going to tell you how you feel. The truth is, you can't lie to people what they're experiencing. You can't say and have a sound bite or talking point, no matter how many people will carry it for you, saying everybody's fine and your life is fine and you can afford everything when you have people in coats because they've had to turn because their electricity has been shut off and temperatures have dropped because you fall behind on your electric bill. I mean, I say that because it's in addition to food. I mean, we saw what was happening in what some have called the big beautiful bill and others have called the big ugly bill. That was making sure that the food pantry lines were growing and Food banks were raising the alarms about the fact that we've already had families, working people, children with working parents who were relying on federal subsidies to ensure they could eat. That's before this conversation that's been building for a long time. But I don't want us to lose the other point because we, you and I, when we were on and had Cornell Belcher on, you know, he reminded us after the last elections that people aren't unidimensional. And their insecurity about prices maps to their insecurity about democracy because. And we just did a poll with Cornell that shows that 74% of likely voters are actually concerned about federal overreach. Now, that's a broad category, but you pair those. It's also about trust in whether the country can be put back on the right track and whether this is the administration to do it. And it, I think, is in trouble on both those counts.

Alex Wagner (11:13)

Well, what's interesting is that, you know, and it's almost an anthropological point, but when you look back at the grip Trump had in 1.0 and his coalition, it is hard to overstate how much the perception of their personal economies was his bulwark. And the fact that the conversation day to day was about an assault, because he was assaulting the rule of law in the first term. He was under investigation for his campaign's alleged ties to Russia. He was, he was impeached for extorting the leader of Ukraine for congressionally approved funding for the military in Ukraine. And his coalition largely felt pretty good about their economy until Covid hit. No one, including the majority of his coalition, feels good about their economy. And so as a political point, tracking with people's worries about whether there will be elections again in the state of our democracy is a huge political flashing red light for him, regardless of how many statistics he eliminates.

Rick Stengel (12:17)

It's a flashing red light. He's not, he doesn't think much about policy, but he does focus on trends. So he's clearly, he clearly has to know that there's something bubbling. All the reports that it that Republicans are feeling like they're in trouble next year should be resonating with him. And any other president would be going out there and doing message events to actually address how their government is going to tackle the concerns that are top of mind for Americans. But he doesn't do that, or at least not in the way that would resonate with many of those Americans. And let me go back to Alex's point about structural problems, because as you talk about housing, the Stat that continues to stick with me that the median age of a first time home buyer right now is 40 years old.

Alex Wagner (13:01)

Yeah.

Rick Stengel (13:02)

When I graduated from college, it was 28. That means that I think in New.

Alex Wagner (13:05)

York it's like 56, which is extraordinary.

Rick Stengel (13:08)

And think about what that does that puts off not just the home buying, but it puts off potentially marriage, having children. So all of those life decisions. And this is like, it's beyond the numbers. When your behavior starts changing and you have to plan differently other than what you thought you were about to do coming out of college. And now you have a president and a government that's not addressing it. After they said that they would and they messaged to you, they sent social media algorithms to say to you that your life is not going the way it should and we're going to fix it. But yet he's planning 50 year mortgages so that you can't even build equity and create wealth to be able to get yourself back on track. So all of those things that he told the American public that he would do, he clearly has not done it. And the gap between wages and expenses and costs is just continuing to widen. And since we were talking about food, we don't do turkey so much at a Jamaican household, we do oxtail. And the prices of oxtail have skyrocketed. So, yes, well, you can bring the.

Maya Wiley (14:11)

Oxtail and my daughter will jam on that.

Rick Stengel (14:14)

There you go.

Maya Wiley (14:14)

But speaking to this point of affordability, because it's rents and ability to buy, but this is an administration that has chosen to try to divide people based on race, based on stereotyping people who are immigrants, based on cracking down on rights, trying to tell others this is your real problem. Not that you can't afford the rent, not that you're struggling to buy a home, not that you have to live with your parents, not that. And it's not working. It is not working because people know what they are experiencing and at a certain point they'll start to get. You're telling me who not to like. You're not telling me what you're going to do.

Alex Wagner (14:57)

Well, and I mean, on the structural point, Alex, the tariffs are his big bet. His, his big swing. They are structurally going to make things even more expensive. They haven't kicked in yet. So that is more pain to come. And the mass deportations have a terrible impact on the economy, not the positive one that they like to talk about in right wing interviews.

Maya Wiley (15:21)

Yeah.

Nicole Wallace (15:21)

And I mean, I would argue that Trump probably feels most confident in his immigration strategy right it's the one where he's, at least his, his deputies are on a strategy with very little thought to the political cost. And the reality is, Nicole, I mean, the two CO2 of the most important coalitions that helped Trump win in 2024 were young people who voted in larger numbers for him than they did in previous elections. The Gen Z cohort I was just talking about, that's not going to buy a house till they're 40 and when they do, they're going to get a 50 year mortgage and not pay it off till they're 90, if they're even alive, just set that aside. And then of course, Latinos who are, you know, now being terrorized in their communities by mass ICE raids, the job, is it like increasingly vanishing? And the, how, the affordability piece, the health insurance piece, I mean, all of this stuff is chilling the very coalitions that Republicans need to maintain in 2026 and 2028 if they have any hope of, of riding the, the, the, the, the coattails that Trump, you know, had in 2024. I mean, it's, it all spells disaster politically, to say nothing of what it does to the American public itself. You know, I mean, the idea that 36% of the country has no hope about the American economy, that rejects the president who is elected almost solely on his stewardship of the, or the idea of his stewardship on the economy, that they feel hopeless about their future in jobs, in housing, in pursuing the American dream. I mean, this is not like this is. None of these are good developments. None of them are good for the party. None of them are good for the country.

Alex Wagner (16:56)

It makes it all the more stunning that the Republicans in Congress keep going along with every dumb thing he asks them to do. It is, it's no wonder that Marjorie Taylor Greene in her resignation video talked about the certainty that they would be in the minority, that he would be impeached and that she would be asked to defend him in that impeachment. Everyone sticks around. We have much more with our first panel here. As Trump struggles to grasp what tens of millions of Americans are screaming from the rooftop is, is wrong. That daily necessities like groceries cost way too much and Trump's policies are making things worse. Also ahead for us, the Trump administration seems to be facing something else that's obvious to the rest of the world. Vladimir Putin isn't interested in peace, and especially not when he doesn't get everything he wants when it comes to Ukraine. The latest on some very dicey negotiations after the Trump administration tried to Sell Ukraine on a plan for their own surrender. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

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Maya Wiley (18:46)

So that means half day.

Rick Stengel (18:49)

Yeah.

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Maya Wiley (19:31)

The price sometimes is not really worth.

Alex Wagner (19:33)

The quality that we've been getting lately. So I'm just trying to have to jump around shopping shops to shops to be honest, like just regular day to day a week shopping is like 2 300. So depending on like how big the.

Maya Wiley (19:46)

Family is, it's going to be more.

Alex Wagner (19:48)

And I'm talking about I'm a family of six right now so I'm just trying to like make do. I remember having like a whole bag of groceries for like not even a hundred dollars. You could get like a big amount.

Maya Wiley (20:01)

Now I just feel like when you.

Alex Wagner (20:02)

Spend two $300 it's making mainly snacks or it's not even the essentials like meats or anything. The problems with knocking down the East Wing to build a ballroom and taking a jet from Qatar and throwing up in the West Wing for crypto is you can't unring those bells. You have signaled where your energies are. You have signaled who your people are. You have invited cameras and press in for all those events, including a Great Gatsby party. Trump cannot now dispel the image he created for him. So he's a branding guy, so you can't tell me he didn't know what he's doing associating with billionaires. He was inaugurated shoulder to shoulder with billionaires. Didn't have any, you know, Joe the plumber figures up there with him. He chose to surround himself with billionaires. He chooses to project opulence. Not even just the bubble that any American president is in, but opulence. The bubble wasn't good enough. He tore it down. He bulldozed it. On a Friday. We were sitting here, and this, to me is this gilded cage politically of his own making that will be fascinating to watch if he even knows he's in it or tries to get out of it.

Rick Stengel (21:15)

Yeah, I think he knows he's in it, but I also think he doesn't care. And I think for the voter, for his voters, they voted for him in part partly for status, but also in part because they felt that at least he cares about me, at least he's speaking to me. But I want to address what I think is a wraparound problem that the voter that you were speaking to earlier articulated. Smack the Soto in making decisions between quality and quantity because of prices, the moral hazard kicks in. Am I going to make unhealthy choices because I cannot afford the healthy ones? And that might be a significant wraparound problem in my view, because what did Trump do on Friday? He declassified certain professional as being, quote, professional. So it made careers like nursing and social work more expensive to be able to obtain. Now, if we have problems finding nurses, problems finding social workers and all these other careers that we deem to be essential during COVID and now we're disincentivizing the ability to get those careers, or even the desire to say, this is something on my bucket list, I want to be able to go do this and actually work for people and help people, if we start creating disincentives to get those careers, how are we creating a healthy society and then not even creating the opportunity to be able to afford healthy options? And so to me, the split screen, I always talk about split screen of the destruction of part of the White House, of that Great Gatsby Party, and the potential for people to become sicker, to engage in worse choices that they've ever had to make in the last decade or two because they, they don't, they can't afford it. And a Republican Party that doesn't know or doesn't want to actually push back on this president.

Alex Wagner (23:12)

And then you've got his love of Mamdani, who literally represents and campaigned on the opposite.

Maya Wiley (23:19)

I guess Donald Trump's still a New Yorker, even if he moved to Florida.

Alex Wagner (23:24)

Or wants to be. But he's right.

Maya Wiley (23:26)

Well, look, I mean, I think what's so fascinating about the interaction with Mamdani is in many ways, while Mamdani was able to get a big cross section of this city. Right. And it's a very diverse city. And Donald Trump was so proud of the fact that he was able to make some incursions even, although small, with Latinos and black men, made a lot of that. Everyone started worrying about the trend lines there. And then you get Mamdani, and Mamdani demonstrates that you can be hard left and win those same voters. Because at the end of the day, there is a link. Talk about the split screen. True. But part of that there's a different split screen, which is, do you see me and my experiences and will you do something vastly different with government? Remember the poll I mentioned, Our Civil Rights Monitor poll that we do at the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights has shown, you know, we look, and that's why I think we see, particularly in moderates, a real dissatisfaction and real dissatisfaction that is connected with how this federal government is behaving along with prices. So if you look at it that way, it makes sense that Donald Trump is looking at Zoramdani and thinking, I look, there's something we share. Maybe I can get a little bit of that to brush off on me because I'm not so bright and shiny right now. And it helps him be a little brighter and shinier, maybe. Except I would say Zaramdani won the day, but for sure. But if you think about where he sees himself and where he's finding himself and where he's trying to find his feet, I'm wondering if that's where it is and if that was part of the motivation. But I will just say this for histhere's a group of people in this country who in our poll we call threatened, right? That is, the folks who are struggling to make ends meet, were struggling before this past presidential election to make ends meet and they believed that it was reverse discrimination against people who are white. As long as Donald Trump keeps playing that race card, that hateful, divisive race card, I think we're going to see this grow because the vast majority of the country actually doesn't like it.

Alex Wagner (25:54)

I mean, there are a million things to say about Trump's reaction in the room and warm embrace and enthusiasm and exuberance for our mayor elect. Among them is that he is one of the most disciplined campaigners in a generation. I actually don't know who is even at the level that he, where he is and where he communicates. If you sort of take aside the caricature that happens at right wing media and everything it's about, he brings everything, everything back to affordability. Affordability. Oh, and some affordability. Alex.

Nicole Wallace (26:29)

Yeah, I mean, I have a sort of more basic theory about why the Trump Mom Donnie meeting went the way that it did, which is just Donald Trump wants to be liked. He likes people who are popular and he wants them to like that him. You know, I'm sure he understands that Mamdani is a brilliant political strategist and has a winning message that could help Republicans. I don't, I don't denigrate that, that theory, but I just think it's a basic thing of Zoram Mandani has Riz and Donald Trump so desperately wants to be associated with what is culturally relevant and has been basically shunted to the sidelines, which is why he had to have like meatloaf and, you know, a cast of like D List characters vouch for him at various conventions. But he desperately wants to be in the room with the people who are culturally ascendant and culturally relevant. And that's Zoramdani. And Mamdani did a brilliant thing thing which was to ask for the meeting, which wasn't kneeling to Trump and wasn't pledging fealty to him in any stretch of the imagination. But was the mayor asking the president for a meeting. And I think that kind of, I think that functioned as an almost ego stroke for Trump. And in that way, you know, I just think it's a basic, it's basic pathetic masculinity that draws Trump to people like Mamdani and not actually strategy, because if it was, it was strategy. He maybe wouldn't have jetted off to Mar a Lago before announcing a plan for health care costs that are going to skyrocket for 23 million Americans. Unless Senate Republicans in the two minutes they have before the middle of December after their Thanksgiving break can come up with a solution which they won't like. This isn't a person who substantly substantively cares about the issues at hand. He sure likes being in the room with people who have gold stars and halos next to them. And that's definitely Zohra and Mamdani right.

Alex Wagner (28:13)

Now, that is for sure. Bethel and Maya, thank you for starting us off. Alex sticks around a little bit longer. When we come back, Donald Trump is finding out how little Russian President Vladimir Putin cares about peace in Ukraine now or ever. But it's not on his terms. We'll have that reporting for you next.

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Alex Wagner (30:10)

Stop us if you've heard this before. Donald Trump's capitulation to Russia in this case at 28 peace plan that could have been written by Vladimir Putin himself met with further proof that Putin is not interested in peace. We've learned about new revisions to that proposal initially put together without input from Ukraine, so dangerous that the Wall Street Journal editorial board warned Donald Trump that it would, quote, haunt him for the rest of his presidency. The New York Times explains after meetings between the US And Ukrainian negotiators over the weekend, quote, the plan had shrunk to closer to 20 points, setting aside for future negotiations some of Ukraine's red lines, including capping the size of its military, a proposed ban on NATO troops inside Ukraine, and the boundaries between the two sides. Today, US And Russian officials are holding a scheduled meeting in Abu Dhabi led by US Army Secretary who Trump refers to as his, quote, drone guy as he nears. Two weeks into his side gig as an international negotiator and it doesn't look like it's going that well. The Times reports this, quote, some Trump administration officials believe that revisions to the peace framework that emerge could lead Putin to dismiss it out of hand. For Ukraine's part, President Zelensky appears ready to finalize a deal to end the war. A US Official tells Ms. Now there are discussions about a Trump Zelensky meeting in the US by the end of the month. Well, back in Ukraine, Putin launched a large scale missile and drone attack bombarding the capital of Kyiv overnight, killing at least six people, according to President Zelensky, which only adds to the point our next guest, Anne Applebaum makes about the original proposal, the capitulation made as part of US Foreign policy. Ann writes this, quote, it would not serve our economic or security interests, so whose interest would it serve? Which US Companies and which oligarchs would benefit are Trump's family members and political supporters among them. The arrangements on offer should be public knowledge before any kind of deal is signed. I want to bring in the aforementioned staff writer for the Atlantic, Anne Applebaum, and joining me at the table, former undersecretary of state for public diplomacy and public affairs during the Obama administration. Ms. Now political analyst Rick Stengel is here. Alex is still with us as well. Ann, you wrote a brilliant piece and we read from yesterday in our coverage of this conversation, but basically making the point not to snooze on who is involved in the crafting of the proposal and the negotiations. They are not. They are not representatives of the state. They are these individuals with other interests, private interests, economic interests, financial interests.

Anne Applebaum (33:00)

What was really disturbing about the 28 point plan was that it included some points that were clearly written to be appealing to US Companies and Russian companies who seem to be already negotiating deals. And this is their reference to deals in the Arctic over mineral rights, over data centers, over energy infrastructure. We already know, because it was leaked to the Financial Times some months ago, that there have been U.S. russian companies negotiating about the reconstruction or rebuilding of the Nord Stream pipeline that was part of which was blown up at the beginning of the war. All of these things are happening over the heads of the Ukrainians, over the heads of the Europeans, but also over the heads of Americans. It seems like that Steve Witkoff is in, you know, is traveling around the world, negotiating on behalf of perhaps himself. I mean, we don't know, perhaps other companies, perhaps companies close to the Trump family, but really not acting in the interests of the United States of America. The United States interest is that the war ends, that Russia ceases to be a threat to Europeans, to our allies, and to us, and not that the plan is some kind of gateway to a new set of lucrative deals.

Alex Wagner (34:25)

Let me read some more from your piece. You're right. The plan was negotiated by Steve Witkoff, a real estate developer with no historical, geographical or cultural knowledge of Russia, Russia or Ukraine, and Kirill Dimitriev, who heads Russia's sovereign wealth fund and spends most of his time making business deals. American citizens should be asking for the details of any business negotiations now underway. This plan has been proposed in our name as a part of U.S. foreign policy. I just want to hit pause on what is not normal, but what Trump is trying to normalize, and that is representatives from sovereign wealth funds negotiating foreign policy. It's a line that would have set off a million tripwires in any other normal administration, but it's one that they trample across so often. Jared Kushner is also involved, has been reported to be involved. He has no official role in government. We have no way of knowing if the CIA is briefing him in or debriefing him out. We have no way of knowing what other things are being discussed with him in the room. He's for all intents and purposes, a business guy.

Anne Applebaum (35:30)

He's a business guy who has strong links to Saudi Arabia as well. And so he may be compromised in ways that we haven't even imagined yet. We don't know what his financial interests are in the deal with Russia. I would also draw your attention to a story that broke today, which is a Bloomberg story that describes a telephone call between Steve Witkoff and some of the Russians who are negotiating this peace deal in which Wyckoff is offering advice to the Russians on how to talk to Trump. In other words, he says, make sure that Putin congratulates Trump on his Gaza success. This is from a few weeks back. Make sure he knows that Russia wants peace and so on. In other words, he's telling them how to convince Trump to see it their way, which is not really what the role of a U.S. negotiator should be in these circumstances. And again, this is a country that conducts information war against us. This is a country that conducts sabotage operations all over Europe. This is a country that competes with the US In Africa, all over the world. This is a country that has invaded a democratic country. It has occupied territory. It has kidnapped, tortured, imprisoned people. They've kidnapped many thousands of children who still haven't been returned. You know, this is not a country that Steve Witkoff should be cozying up to and helping them negotiate with the president.

Alex Wagner (37:01)

I have that story here. I'll read from it. I have to sneak in a quick break first. We'll do that. We'll bring Rick and Alex in on the other side. Don't go anywhere. We're back with Ann, Rick and Alex. So, Rick, I have the story Anne's talking about. This is what Bloomberg reported today. Wycoff advised Russia on how to pitch Ukraine plan to Donald Trump. In an Oct. 14 phone call that lasted a little over five minutes, Witkoff advised Yuri Yushov, Putin's top foreign policy aide, on how the Russian leader should broach the issue with Trump. His guidance included suggestions on setting up a Trump Putin call before President Zelenskyy's White House visit later that week and using the Gaza agreement as a way in.

Unnamed Expert/Guest (37:46)

Well, it's funny, because that is what he knows. He knows Trump. He knows nothing about Russia. He knows nothing about Ukraine. I mean, if we just put it on the other foot. If there was a Russian who came in and said, I want to buy some property in Hudson Yards and was negotiating with Wycoff, but he'd never been to Hudson Yards. He didn't speak English. He didn't know about New York City, didn't know anything of the history. That's what Wycoff is. And he's negotiating with these people who are absolute experts who have been negotiating for decades. I mean, I've been in the room with Putin, I've been in the room with Lavrov. They just say, no, no, they don't negotiate. They just repeat their demand over and over. And Witkoff was the guy. I remember when he first met Putin, he was effusive. It was like he was meeting his idol and he was raving about the portrait of Donald Trump that Putin gave him. I mean, that's how Putin operates. He' Switcliffe idolizes Trump. Trump idolizes Putin. What is he going to do? He doesn't know anything about the history and brilliant story makes clear that that first 28 point plan was essentially a Russian plan. And it's Rubio and others that are trying to walk it back because remember, the Europeans have to weigh in on it. The Ukrainians of course, have to weigh in on it. And now they're in a bad position because Putin obviously is going to nix this plan. He's going to say Nixon.

Alex Wagner (39:03)

So where does that leave Ukraine?

Unnamed Expert/Guest (39:05)

Ukraine is, I mean, Zelenskyy is in such an impossible position. He's of course going through a crisis now internally because of the corruption scam handle close to him. I was looking at Ukrainian polls today. You know, 70% of Ukrainians want to have a peace deal, but they don't want to have a peace deal where they necessarily give land back. It's a very three dimensional chess playing, chess game that Zelensky's playing. And it's a very difficult hand that he has to mix the metaphors there.

Alex Wagner (39:34)

I mean, Alex, I was thinking, and I actually said to Rick in the break that the conduct around Russia and the combination of corruption and incompetence that is a hallmark of his foreign policy team would be a lead story in any other time. But because he's threatening, because Alyssa Slotkin announced that the FBI's counterterrorism unit is investigating her because he's hollowed out the FBI and doj, it doesn't get the attention it deserves. But in normal times, if we were to level set, this would be the top story every day of the week. Right.

Nicole Wallace (40:11)

Also we have a Secretary of State. It's not like the position is vacant. The idea that like some developer that Trump's known for a bunch of years is going and freelancing with his son in law and putting God knows what sweeteners in a plan that there is some reporting was originally written in Russian and later translated to English to give you a sense of just how favorable these terms were to Moscow. You know, the idea that they're out freelancing with Kirill Dmitriev in Miami and that's our diplomatic process. I mean, you know, the corruption boggles the mind. And yet, of course this is how it goes. Of course this is how it goes. This is how it goes in corrupt, autocratic regimes. We have an entire diplomatic corps, we have an entire cabinet agency dedicated to diplomacy. But Donald Trump is, is a person that believes everything should be handled by the ultra rich and the ultra inside. And this is, this is the expression of his administration. Send Kushner out, send his buddy and his son in law out. Let them do it. What does knowledge matter? What is really, what do relationships matter? What does integrity matter? I mean, this is, this is why Jeffrey Epstein in his emails was also offering guidance on how to, how the Russians should approach Trump. Because Trump is someone who fundamentally, fundamentally only listens to and cares about the opinions of his stooges and allies and friends and people with money, which is why he's in the pickle that we discussed in the first half of this show, Nicole. He has completely lost touch with the, both the institutions that are there to serve the American public and the American public itself. And what is resulting from it. I don't know. I have no hope for a peace deal right now. Given the Russian bombings, the fact that Ukraine is now in, you know, there's a real back and forth, there are different plans circulating. You know, in the meantime, you know, Trump is at sea and America's reputation is in tatters. It's, it's, it is all extraordinarily depressing.

Alex Wagner (42:08)

I said the same thing on the break. It is so depressing that this is how we are treating our friend. And I wonder, in Applebaum, from Ukraine's perspective, how do they see America right now?

Anne Applebaum (42:22)

I mean, I think the Ukrainians are doing their best not to say anything that will create an outburst that will upset the President, that will just change the subject. I mean, you may have seen Zelensky at the very beginning of this story saying, of course we're going to try and work with these, with these points. We're going to find something. You know, he immediately had a lot of support from Europe and the, the Europeans have now been part of renegotiating this strange document that, as Alex said, hasn't even translated from Russian. It has some weird wording and language that you wouldn't use in English. I mean, I would draw everybody's attention to one aspect of the story that rarely gets reported in the US and that is that even as the Russians are pushing, even as they're attacking, even as they're just bombing Ukrainian cities. Cities. The Ukrainians are also every single night hitting Russian targets. They have this very extensive, very groundbreaking system of long range drone strikes. They are hitting Russian oil infrastructure, they're hitting Russian factories, they're hitting Russian military targets. And they do it every night. And so the Russians are suffering and they are paying a huge price for continuing this war.

Rick Stengel (43:37)

War.

Anne Applebaum (43:37)

And they will not be able to do it forever. And there is still the possibility that pressure on them, not pressure on the Ukrainians or pressure on Zelensky, would be able to end this war. And so all I can say is I hope someone in the US Administration sees that and understands it.

Alex Wagner (43:56)

Well, Marco Rubio used to, so we'll see. And Applebaum, Rick Stengel, thank you for joining us for this. Alex Wagner, thank you for spending a whole hour with with me. When we come back, how Donald Trump's immigration crackdown is actually making America less safe. There's new reporting to tell you about. Don't go anywhere. There's new reporting in the New York Times that illustrates just how the Trump administration is actually making us less safe amid their immigration crackdown. The New York Times reviewed internal government documents and found that while people arrested by Homeland Security special agents for civil immigration offenses went from roughly 5,000 to a record of more than 94,500, that massive increase coincided with an 11% drop in narcotics arrests, 15% fewer new investigations into narcotics crimes, a 73% drop in weapons seizures, from nearly 41,400 to fewer than 11,200. And despite a jump in human trafficking arrests, agents reported assisting 20% fewer victims. And the number of indictments for child exploitation crimes, well, that fell 28%. And agents identified or rescued roughly 300 fewer child victims. That is a 17% drop. What a tragedy. We'll stay on top of that. One more break. We'll be right back. We want to invite you this holiday week to listen to this week's episode of the Best People. It is a special encore presentation of my conversation with Epstein Surviv Jess Michaels. Just scan the QR code on your screen or listen wherever you get your podcasts. We thank you for letting us into your homes tonight. We're grateful.

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