← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
"For once, we agree with Kash Patel"
00:42:29
Nicolle Wallace on "genuine issues of misconduct" arising in the federal case against James Comey.
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- [00:00]
Andrew Weissman
It's time to save.
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Nicole
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Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
Buy two or more eligible tires.
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Nicole
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- [00:50]
Ken Burns
Our indictments speak powerfully in court.
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Nicole
If you don't believe us, just look at the response that the Eastern District of Virginia under Lindsey Halligan did to J and look at the notes and publication of evidence. That's the type of material we have. But we have to safeguard our prosecutions.
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Ken Burns
Because the ultimate accountability is with a.
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Nicole
Verdict in a jury room.
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Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
For once, we agree with Cash Patel. Hi again everybody. It's five o' clock now in New York meeting a strict new deadline just passed moments ago for the Trump Justice Department, whose indictments, as you just heard in their view, speak powerfully in court. Until they don't. Because this afternoon, in a rare and remarkable ruling, a federal judge in Virginia ordered the government, the Trump Justice Department, to hand over the grand jury materials, including audio, in the criminal case against former director of the FBI Jim Comey. Now why did the judge do that? Well, he explains, because there are evidently, quote, genuine issues of misconduct, end quote, issues apparently so serious that Comey could see his charges dismissed altogether. He in his ruling, for which the DOJ sought an emergency stay, US Magistrate Judge William Fitzpatrick noted how rare it is to allow a defendant access to grand jury materials. However, he says, quote, the record points to a disturbing pattern of profound investigative missteps, missteps that led an FBI agent and a prosecutor to potentially undermine the integrity of the grand jury proceeding, end quote. Of course, the official presiding over this, quote, disturbing pattern is the aforementioned interim U.S. attorney Lindsey Halleck, a Trump appointed official who had never prosecuted a case before prior to this one, when she overruled the objections of career prosecutors in that office. More from today's opinion from the judge. Quote, this unusual series of events, still not fully explained by the prosecutor's declaration, calls into question the presumption of regularity generally associated with grand jury proceedings and provides another genuine issue the defense may raise to challenge the manner in which the government obtain the indictment. All of this lines up perfectly with what is the most comprehensive reporting to date of the troubling atmosphere inside Donald Trump's Department of Justice right now. The New York Times interviewed more than 60 attorneys from the agency, either recently resigned or recently fired. The picture they paint is genuinely horrifying for anyone who appreciates the rule of law or appreciated A former lawyer in the Civil Rights division told the New York Times this, quote, I wouldn't even call it the Justice Department anymore. It has become Donald Trump's personal law firm. I think Americans should be enraged. We all deserve better than this. I keep telling my colleagues still working in the division that I'm holding the line with them from the outside, but I feel guilty that I'm not holding the line with them from the inside. That is where we begin the hour with some of our favorite experts and friends. Former assistant special agent in charge at the FBI and national security and intelligence analyst Michael Feinberg is back with us. He's also a fellow at Lawfare. Also joining us, former top official at the Department of Justice and legal analyst Andrew Weissman's here. Let me start with the judge's extraordinary wording, and this is something I delved into, I believe, with both of you last week on the questions around what was presented to the grand jury in the Comey case to reach an indictment after Eric Siebert, who was MAGA adjacent, MAGA in good standing with Pam Bondi and Todd Blanche, but resigned over this case, saying there wasn't enough evidence to take it to a grand jury and reach an indictment. Lindsay Halligan comes in. We played Cash Patel toasting her, feeding her and pointing to the results. The result of Lindsey Halligan so far from this judge is failing Marks. Andrew Weissman, explain.
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Andrew Weissman
Well, some of this is the result of in the grand jury, you would think that Lindsey Halligan, who has no criminal experience until she took on this role, you would think that somebody would have gone into the grand jury with her instead. We know from the judge's opinion that she went in alone. And so part of what the judge called out here was at least two things that she said that are partially redacted, meaning we don't see all of it that he says are highly problematic and thus justify giving the grand jury transcript to the defense so they can make motions about it. But that sort of like Keystone Cops stuff. The idea that we know that nobody in the Eastern District of Virginia was When a career person was willing to do this. But you think somebody at Main justice would have said, going to send somebody with some experience in there. Let's just for a moment think that we were dealing with a defendant who was guilty of something really serious, like a terrorism offense. Is this what you want from your FBI and your Justice Department is the kind of violations that the judge calls out here and says that there is probable cause to find. And you see this sort of, what I think is sort of reminiscent of what we saw with the Charlie Kirk investigation, where the FBI and the American public and Charlie Kirk's family got lucky. It wasn't because the FBI and the Justice Department were doing a good job. And you're seeing that play out here, which is just rookie mistakes and to be clear, rookie mistakes that this judge says have all of the look and feel of violating the Constitution and the attorney client privilege of James Comey. So this is the more to come but incredibly serious allegations by the judge here.
- [06:54]
Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
Is it enough, Andrew, to get the case dismissed?
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Andrew Weissman
It may be enough to dismiss the indictment. There are other grounds as well, such as the appointment of Lindsey Halligan. But it also signals to me that there are going to be at least very colorable, if not winning arguments to suppress evidence. The judge calls out a Fourth Amendment violation here. It remains to be seen how big a taint that is and whether the government has some arguments on the other side. But if the. If you get evidence suppressed and there isn't a lot of it here, there's very, very little evidence. That's why you have all these career people and even Mr. Seibert saying, we don't want to bring this case, but if you actually violated the Fourth Amendment, then the judge is free to say, we are suppressing that evidence and you need to have evidence in order to actually go to a go a trial.
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Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
Michael, let me read you the judge's own words on what Andrew's describing. After reviewing the grand jury materials himself, the judge wrote that Halligan appeared to make, quote, two fundamental misstatements of the law that could compromise the integrity of the grand jury process. As Andrew said, the specific statements are redacted in the opinion, but the judge noted that they gave grand jurors the wrong impression about Comey's legal rights. When we talked, the three of us talked last week and reporter Glenn Thresh was here as well. We talked about why that wasn't out yet. Where was the missing transcript? I mean, we now know that the judge knew what was in there and it wasn't a good story for the Department of Justice.
- [08:45]
Ken Burns
Yeah.
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Michael Feinberg
I don't think the Department of Justice or the FBI in terms of the investigation leading up to the indictment, neither of those organizations are exactly covering themselves in glory here. For those who haven't read the opinion, the order that came out today, and for those who may not be as familiar with the prosecutorial and the indictment process as Andrew and I, this was less a restrained memorandum than it was an utter evisceration of how the FBI handled evidence and then how that evidence was presented to the grand jury. And you know, at the end there is a numbered section. I think he gets up to about a dozen just mistakes that were made by the government in this process. And this is unfortunately, as career officials are driven out of DOJ and they're driven out of the FBI and you get lackeys coming in willing to replace them. We're going to see more of this.
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Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
Yeah. I mean, Michael, that is the subject of this broader piece of reporting today that we have in the New York Times. Let me read you some of that. This is about. Dina Robinson, a former lawyer in the Civil Rights Division, says our job wasn't to engage in fact finding investigations. Our job was to find the facts that would fit the narrative that the administration already had. That is not how the division worked. The My colleague told me that the experience demoralized and eventually broke them. It ended up being the reason they left the Justice Department. You, I think, left with a similar impression and wrote this incredible canary in the coal mine account of what was happening at the FBI about Polycrafts and Kash Patel. But I wonder what it's like to see the other pieces of the puzzle fall into place from literally every corner of the FBI and doj.
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Michael Feinberg
So I think that the article, which was incredibly powerful to read, actually understates the problem. That article was drawn almost entirely from individuals who sit at the main justice headquarters, the RFK building. I think there were three quotes from federal prosecutors and U.S. attorney's offices in the entire article. But it's important to remember that the Justice Department is a huge organization. It has dozens upon Dozens, I think 90 something U.S. attorney's offices whose personnel were not interviewed by the New York Times. And I know from talking to acquaintances and friends and former colleagues in those offices that they feel the same. And in addition to the U.S. attorney's offices, you have all the component agencies, not just the FBI, but the dea, the atf, the US Marshals, the Bureau of Prisons. This article could have been written about any of Those organizations. This is much more dire than people realize, not just because of the erosion of rule of law, but also because as these people flee the organizations, there's a real loss of state capacity, a real loss of people who know what they're doing. And that's why we find ourselves in situations like the one we're discussing about Lindsey Halligan.
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Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
Yeah, I mean, and Andrea, it's why you've got judges now carrying a load that branch of government was never intended to carry. I mean, the opinions are starting to read like a teacher grading middle school essays. You know, mistake here, mistake here. Except the mistakes are violations of a person's constitutional rights. I want to read some more of this reporting about why it matters. I don't think people will truly understand what's happening to justice in America until it happen, it impacts them. Even my family, my parents voted for Trump. I don't think they see it as a priority. I mean, they're not going to be criminally indicted anytime soon. When I tell them what's happening, I don't think they really believe me. It would take a lot of restraint not to retaliate in the next administration. A lot of career people are helping the administration now. I have a list in my head, and if we get out of this, some of them I'm holding to account. A lot could be validly criminally probed, but the back and forth will not be good. This feels like the elephant in the room, right? I mean, and this crosses from DOJ to dod and God knows what's happening at intel, where if the folks at the top are asking agencies to do legally questionable things and the internal struggle is, well, if I leave, somebody worse will come in. What sort of risk are all these people taking on to be part of this?
- [13:51]
Andrew Weissman
Well, I love that you're starting there, because let's just take that quote which stood out to me, which is sort of like, why would my parents care? Because they're not going to get criminally prosecuted. And this goes to Michael's point. It goes to what we're seeing with the FBI and Lindsey Halligan, which is if you have incompetent people and people with a lack of experience at the Department of Justice and the FBI, there is a reason to care. Not because as I do and Michael does and you do, which is that you are going to have rights of people violated. Here we have Lindsey Halligan and the FBI seemingly just trampling on the Fourth Amendment rights and potentially the Fifth Amendment rights of James Comey. It's because as is called out in the New York Times over and over again. You do not have competent people doing terrorism cases, corruption cases, drug cases. I don't mean like there's nobody there, but you are pulling experienced people off the line. It is that, as Michael knows, that is something that takes years to develop that kind of skill set. And you want for those kinds of crimes, you want the very best people. You do not want Lindsey Halligan learning on the job and going into the grand jury for the first time. You don't want agents who don't, who ignore a court ordered search warrant, according to the judge, and just go ahead and search for things that they're not authorized to search for. That's what he, that's what the judge found today. To me, it is both. Yes, people's rights will be violated, but we are not going to be safer. That's why I always go back to the Charlie Kirk incident, because I, as somebody who worked at the FBI and worked at the Department of Justice, justice was just shocked at the lack of competence in that investigation. And thank God we got lucky. But that's not how you run, you know, a railroad. That's not what you should be banking on. You want your very best people there. And that, that's why I think all of this fits together in terms of what is happening at the department and why should people should care about it.
- [16:09]
Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
Well, and Trump has run three times all three times on fighting crime. And I think our friend Liz Oyer talks about what happens when the nation's preeminent law enforcement agency can't fight cartels and terrorism and cyber and all of the crimes that people don't even think about being protected from by the FBI. Let me play you that.
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Nicole
It'S a.
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Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
Very scary time because the Justice Department expertise has been totally decimated.
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Ken Burns
And I fear that we may, we.
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Nicole
May not really see the full effects.
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Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
Of that until we have a major national crisis on our hands that we learn that we are not equipped to deal with. I mean, Michael, I hope that doesn't happen. Right. I hope it's just conversations like this one that the three of us say, like if it were to happen, we are, you know, not defenseless, but lacking in the defenses we had 12 months ago. But if something does happen, heaven forbid, in part, we'll have to look at the decisions to move agents into immigration to repel the most senior and experienced folks like yourself from jobs they've done for decades.
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Michael Feinberg
Yeah, look, there's a few things to unpack in what Liz was saying. The first is if there is some sort of mass casualty event, and I mentioned this and was dismissed by senior DOJ officials when we started moving people to immigration. If there is a mass casualty event, we're going to have to answer to Congress and to the American people, why one quarter of the FBI workforce to one third, depending on your what you're reading, has been moved to deal with immigration, which is primarily the purview of an entire different cabinet department. The FBI has not gotten an increase in resources. It has not gotten an increase in personnel. So by definition, just as a matter of math, if they're moving these people to immigration and there's nobody to replace them on counter terrorism or counterintelligence or white collar crime or public corruption, those things aren't getting worked. And there's such a blunderbuss approach to everything by this DOJ and FBI that they're not even going to be effective on their stated priorities. They say they want to crush violent crime and gangs. How do you get sources in those gangs when you alienate their entire communities by rounding up their children and grandmother for petty violations of immigration administrative regulations? We're just shooting ourselves in the foot in every way possible.
- [19:01]
Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
So interesting and worthy of a longer conversation. Michael Feinberg, Andrew Weissman, thank you both so much for starting us off this hour on this. When we come back, the Trump administration's deportation campaign moves to another American city, this time only 1600 miles from the southern border. Yet Border Patrol agents have descended on Charlotte, North Carolina. Our colleague Jacob Sobroff is there. And the arrests and detentions and fear is all ramping up. Also ahead, our dear friend Ken Burns will be right here. His new documentary series about the American Revolution is full of parallels to life in america today, nearly 250 years after the founders signed the Declaration of Independence. Ken Burns will be our guest later in the hour. Deadline White HOUSE continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
- [19:50]
Andrew Weissman
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Ken Burns
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Andrew Weissman
Visit kleenex.com to learn more and buy now for whatever happens next, grab Kleenex. BOB evans, Creamy Mac and cheese and buttery mashed potatoes are made for those holiday moments you just can't plan for, like when the neighbors burnt their holiday meal and you invited them over or that time when everyone's flights home were canceled and they stayed an extra two days. So when there is no plan, say.
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Michael Feinberg
Hello to Plan B. O B When.
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Andrew Weissman
You bring out the Bob, you can.
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Nicole
Take comfort this holiday season knowing you'll.
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Andrew Weissman
Always have something delicious on the table.
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Nicole
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Andrew Weissman
When you need comfort, bring out the.
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Nicole
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- [21:11]
Andrew Weissman
Prices and participation may vary while supplies last Taxes, tips and fees extra.
- [21:16]
Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
The Trump administration's immigration crackdown descended on a new American city over the weekend. Federal agents are now targeting Charlotte, North Carol, Carolina in full force, making more than 140 arrests over Saturday and Sunday. The operation is being led by Gregory Bovino, who has already led similar operations in Los Angeles and Chicago. This operation has been dubbed Charlotte's Web by DHS after the beloved children's book that preaches compassion. The author's granddaughter on that criticized the nickname, claiming the operation is antithetical to her grandfather's values. The crackdown has so far startled residents of the city because of scenes like this one. A US Citizen was stopped by masked agents two different times. The second time agents shattered the window of the man's truck. They forcibly removed him from his vehicle and threw him to the ground. DHS claims the man was interfering with their operations. Mississippi now had the chance to speak with the man Willie Assaytuna earlier today. Here's what he said when asked whether the operation was making his community any safer.
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Nicole
People it's scary in that moment, you know, because the Border Patrol don't respect if you are citizens or no citizens. In this case, I try to give my information but don't hear nothing about this. You know, in two time, in six, seven, ten minutes, I received two stops from Border Patrol. Probably because my truck is exactly target for Latinos on my face.
- [23:00]
Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
I'm going to bring in our senior political and national correspondent Jacob Sobroff. He's on the ground in Charlotte, North Carolina. I mean, let me just start with what he said, there, America, in 2025, an American citizen can say, my truck or my face got me targeted. Is this. I guess I know the answer already before the question comes out of my mouth. This is where we are.
- [23:20]
Nicole
I would say, Nicole, is unbelievable to watch that video, but it is so reminiscent of what we have seen, what we're seeing here in Charlotte. So reminiscent of what I saw in Chicago and what we saw in Los Angeles over the summer. And American citizens have been taken in every one of those cities. And frankly, without apology from the border patrol. And we made our way here to Charlotte because we wanted to see what Greg Bevino would do when he picked up his sort of cookie cutter plan to institute the largest mass deportation policy in American history and brought it here to yet another. Another blue city, another place that has drawn the ire of President Trump. Where we're standing right now is outside of the FBI field office here in Charlotte because we had heard some unconfirmed reports of. And by the way, let me just say there is a vast network now of people who are standing up to resist exactly what is happening on the streets of Charlotte in cities like Chicago still, and by the way, Los Angeles still, where every day these types of activities are still happening on the street. And so when I say that there's a group that is. Is forming to resist this, that includes monitors, people who are watching ice, Border patrol and those mass federal agents do exactly what they do. And so we came here because we heard unconfirmed reports that some of them were taken today and detained during those activities. And let me just show you quickly, Nicole. A very small group has started to assemble here because they heard that folks who do what they do are inside or were inside that building and including. I didn't catch your name. Sorry, tell me your name.
- [24:43]
Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
Name. It's Miriam.
- [24:44]
Nicole
Miriam. Miriam, you are one of the people who has been watching ice. I guess you call yourself ICE verifiers. Can you tell me what that is and what you're doing and why are you out here outside the FBI building right now?
- [24:54]
Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
Yeah, I mean, honestly, being an ICE verifier just means being a member of a community right now with eyes. So all of us are people that.
- [25:00]
Ken Burns
Live in Charlotte that care about our friends, care about our families, care about our neighbors, and are out here just trying to protect our city and protect.
- [25:05]
Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
People that we love.
- [25:06]
Nicole
And so for people that are watching us on Ms. Now, so they understand you're literally driving around following these agents as they are doing their enforcement activities on the streets Yeah.
- [25:15]
Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
I mean, when I heard about ICE being in our city, I wasn't sure how that would work exactly.
- [25:19]
Ken Burns
But honestly, just being a member of.
- [25:20]
Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
The community, being out and driving around, it's not hard to come across them.
- [25:23]
Ken Burns
They're in fleets of 10, 12 cars making a noise, making a ruckus.
- [25:27]
Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
And people are too, so it's pretty.
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Ken Burns
Easy to spot them.
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Nicole
Do you have a day job?
- [25:32]
Ken Burns
Yes.
- [25:32]
Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
Yeah.
- [25:32]
Nicole
So what do you do when you're.
- [25:33]
Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
Not doing this other social work and social activism stuff?
- [25:37]
Nicole
Thank you so much for talking to me. It's nice to meet you. I appreciate it. And here I know you got a lot of stuff, got your signs. But Nicole, Nicole, the point is people all across the country are mobilizing. People all across the country are coming out because these folks are showing up unannounced. Even the local officials here, the governor and the mayor of Charlotte, have said there hasn't been coordination between the federal government and the local authorities here. And there is a fog that hangs over all of this where people are uncertain if folks that do exactly what these people do are even detained or have been released from this FBI building here tonight.
- [26:09]
Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
Nicole Jacob, what is the legal rationale? I remember you giving me the convoluted legal rationale for being in Chicago because of Lake Michigan. I mean, you're 170 miles from the nearest part of the coast. Border Patrol isn't even supposed to be there, are they?
- [26:31]
Nicole
The hundred mile rule is what Governor J.B. pritzker told me that Border Patrol used to justify their presence in Chicago, even though Lake Michigan is not a border with Canada, nor does Lake Michigan, Canada whatsoever. So I did text Trisha McLaughlin today from the Department of Homeland Security, the Assistant Secretary for Public affairs, and asked her, under what authority is the Border Patrol operating in, running around, apprehending landscapers and people on their way to work. All these scenes that we've seen play out, breaking windows of American citizens. And she wrote airport as a response. And so I said, is an airport a border? She asked me to follow up with the Department of Homeland Security for a more robust statement. And in that statement, they cited all kinds of authorities that they say that the federal government has, including portions of the Immigration and Nationality act and other authorities. But I think that that is a. I'm not an attorney. I'm not going to say it's a legally dubious justification, but I certainly think it's going to. We have one right here. National lawyer, skilled observer. I may as well ask you, when you hear what I was Just saying about the border patrol operating here, what do you make of the authorities under which that they're operating here in the Charlotte area? Well, first and foremost, I'm a criminal defense attorney, but it seems, it seems like a spurious claim to say that any port of ent. Right. Because there' swe have airports in the middle of the country, all over international flights. To call that a border is a bit is pushing it. Well, don't take it from me. Take it from what's your name? Tim Emery. Take it from Tim, the criminal defense attorney who's out here with the National Lawyers Guild watching and making sure everybody stays safe.
- [28:01]
Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
Nicole, Jacob, have folks watched what has happened and what you've covered in Los Angeles and Chicago? And is it seeing those scenes in those cities that have them prepared if and when they came to their city, or was it sort of knowing that they were coming from their own networks or how did they how have they learned from and developed ways to protect their community from what's happened in LA and Chicago?
- [28:27]
Nicole
That's such a great question, Nicole. And actually I wondered that too on my way here. And I was asking some of the local groups that are that are on the ground. They had been preparing for this since 2017, since the first Trump administration in North Carolina for some of the promised immigration actions. And so they have been ready. I'm going to go to a training later tonight where people are literally showing up in I don't want to say sold out, they're not paying to go, but full rooms in churches and other sanctuaries to prepare to bring people to and from schools, to and from workplaces to make sure people are safe in the face of ICE and the Border Patrol being here. And every day, those training sessions are jam packed. I can't wait to see it tonight. And I'm going to share some of that reporting later on this evening. But I think that the idea that they weren't organized or were unprepared for this is something that maybe I had suspected, but I was wrong. They have told me they've been waiting for this moment for a long time and they're ready, obviously.
- [29:23]
Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
Well, you have to come back tomorrow and tell us what you learned tonight at that training. Jacob Sobroff, thank you so much for joining us today. On the Ground for us in Charlotte, North Carolina. Thank you. When we come back, at a time when Americans are increasingly divided about our own current and our own history, documentary filmmaker Ken Burns is out with what one reviewer called a sneakily provocative new series on The American Revolution Ken will be our guest right here after a very short break.
- [29:56]
Nicole
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Michael Feinberg
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Nicole
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Nicole
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Nicole
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Nicole
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Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
It's one of those rare water cooler moments for America. It's a powerful new documentary series airing this week made by our friend, the Emmy Award winning filmmaker Ken Burns. It examines how the American Revolution turned the world upside down, changed human history. It explores themes and lessons that Ken and I have been talking about for years that Ken says show the American Revolution is the key to how we survive today and tomorrow. Here's part of the trailer for the American Revolution. Watch.
- [31:57]
Ken Burns
To believe in America is to believe in possibility. Possibility worth fighting for. The possibility of a different kind of world. America is predicated on an idea.
- [32:16]
Michael Feinberg
Everything that we believe in comes out of the Revolution.
- [32:20]
Ken Burns
Our ideas of liberty, equality.
- [32:26]
Michael Feinberg
It's the defining event of our history.
- [32:30]
Andrew Weissman
The American Revolution movement served as a.
- [32:32]
Ken Burns
Model around the world.
- [32:35]
Michael Feinberg
These are not English liberties.
- [32:37]
Nicole
These are transcendent liberties. These are liberties that all individuals have.
- [32:42]
Michael Feinberg
By the nature of being human.
- [32:46]
Andrew Weissman
The American Revolution changed the world.
- [32:52]
Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
Finally, at long last, our dear friend Ken Burns is here at the table. I love this so much. I love everything that you make. But this feels so different. Why?
- [33:02]
Ken Burns
I don't know. It's maybe the moment Now I mean, we started it 10 years ago. Barack Obama had 13 months to go in his presidency. But I've felt, and I've said that I don't think I'm going to work on a more important film than this one. And I think a lot of it has to do with this sense. It's a Chicken Little sense that all of us have. When, you know, everything right now is always the worst it's ever been and everything's going to hell in a handbasket. And you really, it was really a lot worse during the revolution. It's a real civil war, a global war, as well as a revolution of ideas, of really, really earth changing ideas. And I've done Civil war, I've done World War II, I've done Vietnam. They're all very, very complicated and dark moments. And so I think there's a funny kind of optimism that comes out of the study of history, one that is not susceptible to cynicism. In a way. Cynicism is a luxury for other people to have and, and optimism is not a naive and pejorative state. It's something we can do. This story is a table around which we can all agree to cohere. This is our story. I did not make it for one group of people. I've made it for everybody. And the we is Sarah Botstein and David Schmidt, my co directors, and Jeff Ward, the extraordinary writer that I've worked with, with over 40 years to try to tell all these various stories. From civil war to baseball to jazz to the Roosevelts in Vietnam. This is as important a subject as we'll touch because it's our origin story. You know, the Bible, Ecclesiastes says there's nothing new under the sun. Well, there is actually something new under the sun here. It's really important. And I finally, a couple months ago, just out on the road, started saying, I think it's the most important thing since the birth of Christ. Not to be provocative, no, but this.
- [34:47]
Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
So you said this in our podcast conversation. And it has infected how I've thought about every news cycle that, that it's an idea. And when I covered last Tuesday's elections, I said, you know, in Virginia and New Jersey, they were people in California, they went out and voted for an idea.
- [35:04]
Ken Burns
That's right.
- [35:04]
Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
And this whole thing that, that is our history coming together around an idea is so it's everything.
- [35:11]
Ken Burns
We're the only country that has that kind of thing attached to it in such a obvious way. And last night, as I was watching, as I do broadcast television of the first episode, to hear these little girls at the time, to hear these young men, to these older men, older women, saying that it might be Abigail Adams. It might be, you know, Betsy ambler, who is 10 years old when the war begins. It might be Joseph Plumb Martin, and it might be John Greenwood, or it might be Benjamin Franklin. The idea that you could be animated by this idea of liberty, something new. And it is, as the historian Jane Kamensky will say later on, it's leaky. The liberty idea. People hear it. Everyone hears it. That the Declaration, which is tonight, will, you know, affect people at the margins, not just the people that it was written for. When he said all men are created equal, he meant all white men have property free of debt. Right? We don't mean that anymore. And at that moment that that sentence came out, no one, everyone understood it was for them. And that's the extraordinary magic. For all the flaws and the asterisks that you have to put there for all the undertow and the less than perfect behavior. I've yet to meet someone who's perfect. This is an amazing story of human beings. George Washington is the most important, and he's deeply flawed. And then you see the scores of people who made this revolution happen, the people who were opposed to it, and you could understand them and love them for that opposition. If you're a Loyalist, you're just essentially a conservative, saying, I like the British constitutional monarchy. All my education, my health, my literacy, my good fortune. The land I own has come from that. Why would I want to change it for an idea that's never, ever been proven? And yet people invested in that idea. The last line of the Declaration is, you know, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor. Now George Washington fires a gun in anger. He may be one of the richest men in America. He is one of the richest men in America. And he risks his life and his fortune. Now just stop and say, where would I have been? Would I be a Loyalist or be a patriot? Could I fight for a cause? Could I die for a cause? Could I kill someone I else for a cause? Would I be willing to give up for an idea? Would I be willing to give up my entire fortune? Is there anybody that we know in the sphere of the richest people who seemed willing to commit to an idea like this? And yet all of these people did. It's just a remarkable story, and we do not neglect all the people who are involved in it. The Native Americans on whose land this is being fought out the 500,000 enslaved and free black Americans, the half the population of women who don't have any rights. Right. But as Abigail Adams says, if you don't, you know, give us some representation, we're going to be likely to foment a revolution. She says, remember the ladies. And then she said, all husbands would be tyrants if they would.
- [38:08]
Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
What is it that you have figured out? To tell our story and not sugarcoat the truth.
- [38:16]
Ken Burns
You just tell it. I mean, it's so we have in our editing room, I told you this, this neon sign that says, you know, little cursive thing. It says, it's complicated and you don't want a sugar. Nobody wants a sanitized story. Nobody. Left, right, center, Somebody does.
- [38:32]
Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
Donald Trump is literally taking things out of the Smithsonian.
- [38:35]
Ken Burns
Autocrats need people. The whole idea of being a subject is to be uneducated, is to be superstitious, is to be distracted by conspiracies. But what our founders felt and the pursuit of happiness was not the acquisition of stuff in a marketplace of things. It's lifelong learning in a marketplace of ideas. So that if you. You could educate yourself, you could become more virtuous. That's the free electron word that is throughout this series. You have to watch it. It's going to dodge past you in every single episode. And if you're virtuous, then you begin to earn the right of being a citizen, which is an extraordinary thing. And I think one of the energies that we feel every once in a while is that palpable democratic energy when people go, wait a second. I need it to be the way we've been. And so one of the best ways to understand this is to go back to your origin story if you're troubled, to go back and say, where was I born? Who are my parents? What's my early life like? And this is a way to sort of say, there's not a person in this country that can't find purchase or entry or whatever you want to call it into the story that we're trying to tell. And that's exactly the way it should be. And not sugarcoat anything.
- [39:51]
Nicole
Right?
- [39:51]
Ken Burns
You don't have to sugarcoat anything. And it can be complicated, and everybody can be involved in it. You don't want to play the favorites of. Of one thing. It's not. I understand the ideas in Philadelphia are so powerful. We want to say it's not violent. It's not. This is a violent, violent war. And I think we're worried that it diminishes if we Tell the real story. Those ideas are even more inspirational when you understand that there's 14 year old boys and 15 year old boys are fighting on the front lines in the battle at Trenton, in the battle of Long island, which was the biggest battle of the thing all around, that there are. There's a moment in episode four or when a loyalist that we've been following kills his best friend growing up in the ramparts as that best friend is stabbing him with a bayonet. And then another moment at a lull in the battle of Saratoga where the Brits are hurling insults and jokes to the Americans. And suddenly a Brit gets up and runs down, jumps into the water and swims across the river and an American does the same thing. Two brothers, an Irish soldier named Roger Lamb reports to us. Two brothers who had no idea, hadn't seen each other in years and had no idea that they were not only an opposing arm armies, but in the a battle trying to kill each other. Which means those twin polarities of the sort of love that happens and then the violence that happened is where this revolution takes place. And does that take anything away from the second most important sentence in the English language? We hold these truths to be self evident, you know, the other is of course I love you.
- [41:28]
Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
I have to see. Get a break. I had so many questions for you that I didn't get to play any of it. So let me take a break and then we'll play some of it, okay? Okay. We'll be right back. Don't go anyone. We're back with one of my favorite humans. Here's a bit of what you'll see tonight.
- [41:48]
Ken Burns
Since no one had authority over anyone else by birthright, Jefferson was affirming that all legitimate power came from the people themselves. Even if he, the owner of hundreds of human beings, could never make that truth a reality in his own life, his relationship to slavery is foundational.
- [42:13]
Nicole
From the beginning to the end, this.
- [42:15]
Ken Burns
Institution bounded his life even though he.
- [42:18]
Nicole
Knew it was wrong. How could you know something is wrong and still do it? Well, that is the human question for all of us.
- [42:28]
Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
Wow.
- [42:30]
Ken Burns
So we can throw people out, right? We can just say, oh, you own slaves, so you're done, right? And that you only meant only white men. But Annette Gordon Reed, who is one of our great historians, understands it more deeply and gets to the place where we could get to as a country, not just as individual scholars as she is, where you are understanding the problem that attends to Jefferson. He knew it too. He knew slavery was wrong. You know, why do you do it. And then she says, well, that's the human question for all of us. She's not taking Jefferson off the hook. He's leaving him on the hook where he deserves to be for these inconsistencies and these hypocrisies. She's putting the rest of us on the hook. And she's reminding us that in this world in which we're willing to cancel people left, right and center for not being perfect, what is left? No one is left in that regard. And yet the stories that we've been told all our lives about heroes who are flawed have strengths and weaknesses, about all the people, they're not diminished. It just becomes human. So George Washington has flaws and is rash and owns human beings, but is able to inspire people in the dead of night. He can get them to. He picks subordinate talent without worry about whether they're going to overshadow them. They might be better generals, and many are better generals than him. He can defer to Congress. He can convince someone from Georgia and someone from New Hampshire why they're not from separate countries as they think they are, but Americans. And then he gives up power twice, twice his military command and then his, you know, the presidency. And this is the great example, the great American example. And it's still resonating to this moment.
- [44:18]
Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
Like maybe more than ever. More than ever. You're going to come back this week, right?
- [44:21]
Ken Burns
I am.
- [44:21]
Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
And this is so beautiful. I love this so much. I'm going to carry this home. I love it.
- [44:25]
Ken Burns
It's yours.
- [44:25]
Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
It's such a, an important thing. I'm so happy to have it as a viewer, and I'm so happy to have you here as my friend this week to talk about it. Thank you so much. Thank you, thank you, thank you. The American Revolution is airing right now on PBS all week. And Kim will be back this week, right?
- [44:40]
Nicole
It will be.
- [44:41]
Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
Okay. Quick break for us. We'll be right back. We are so fortunate around here to have voices of reason to bring us this important historical, historical perspective at a time like this. People like Kim Burns and people like Heather Cox Richardson. She's an American historian and an American treasure. She's generous enough to explain our political moment to us on a near daily basis in her daily substack. She's the most subscribed to person human on the platform itself, and she is my guest on this week's episode of the Best People podcast. Here's part of what she told me about what she thinks happens next. I think that we are seeing the.
- [45:23]
Nicole
End of at least a 40 year.
- [45:26]
Ken Burns
Era in American history. We are realigning in a lot of different ways. We're seeing dramatic changes in both political parties.
- [45:35]
Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
And I don't predict the future.
- [45:37]
Nicole
I predict the past, if you will. But where we are looks a great.
- [45:41]
Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
Deal like the periods in our history.
- [45:43]
Nicole
When we have reclaimed democracy and built.
- [45:46]
Host (possibly Nicole or another main anchor)
Something more inclusive on the other side. God. To watch the entire conversation with Heather cox Richardson on YouTube, just scan the QR code on your screen. You can also download the best people wherever you get your podcasts. One more break. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes tonight. We are grateful your home holds the.
- [46:09]
Ken Burns
Story of your life.
- [46:10]
Andrew Weissman
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- [46:15]
Ken Burns
They frame the little moments and the big ones from first steps to graduation to new beginnings. While life keeps moving, our windows stand.
- [46:28]
Andrew Weissman
Strong through every chapter.
- [46:30]
Ken Burns
Let Renewal by Andersen be part of your story.
- [46:32]
Andrew Weissman
Windows Built to last visit renewalbyanderson.com to learn more.