← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
“Fork in the road”
00:43:52
Nicolle Wallace covers today’s high stakes White House meeting between Trump, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, and other European leaders.
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- [00:01]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
Hanaday presents in the red corner, the undisputed undefeated Weed Whacker guy, champion of hurling grass and pollen everywhere.
- [00:11]
Donald Trump
And in the blue corner, the challenger.
- [00:14]
Nicole Wallace
Extra strength Hataday eye drops that work all day to prevent the release of histamines that cause itchy allergy eyes.
- [00:23]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
And the winner by knockout is Patternay. Patternay. Bring it on.
- [00:30]
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- [01:01]
Nicole Wallace
Foreign hi there, everyone. It's four o'clock in the east. At stake today, nothing less than the very future of Ukraine and America's standing in the world, because the meetings with European leaders happening at the White House right now as we come on the air stand to potentially reshape the global order for better or depending on how things go for worse. At the moment, there is a multilateral meeting underway in the East Room with a number of European leaders in attendance. They are essentially there as backup for Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky, following that travesty of an embarrassment, the ambush on Donald Trump's part back in February of President Zelenskyy earlier this year. Earlier today, though, Donald Trump and President Zelensky appeared together in the Oval Office. Trump largely behaved himself. That counts as news. He did, though, either wittingly or unwittingly, make some news. It had to do with the necessity for a ceasefire between Ukraine and Russia. Listen to what Trump had to say on the topic throughout last week and how something seemingly changed on that topic this afternoon.
- [02:10]
Donald Trump
It could be a good meeting and we'll go a step further. We'll get it done. I'd like to see a cease fire very, very quickly. I want to see a ceasefire rapidly. I don't know if it's going to be today, but I'm not going to be happy if it's not today. So we'll see what happens. I'm going to be. I won't be happy if I walk away without some form of a ceasefire. I don't think you need a ceasefire. You know, if you look at the six deals that I settled this year. They were all at war. I didn't do any ceasefires and I know that it might be good to have, but I can also understand strategically why. Well, you know, one country or the other wouldn't want it. You have a cease fire and they rebuild and rebuild and rebuild and you know, maybe they don't want that. But if you look at the six deals that we made peace, you know, long term, long running wars, I didn't do any ceasefires.
- [03:05]
Nicole Wallace
It's not just one country that wants a ceasefire. It's, well, it's flag by Putin's Russia. So all of a sudden a ceasefire. I don't do ceasefires. We don't need those. Then about an hour ago, Donald Trump shared this news on a key piece of any negotiations, security guarantees for Ukraine.
- [03:26]
Donald Trump
The Alaska summit reinforced my belief that while difficult, peace is within reach. And I believe that in a very significant step, President Putin agreed that Russia would accept security guarantees for Ukraine. And this is one of the key points that we need to consider and we're going to be considering that at the table also, like who will do what. Essentially, I'm optimistic that collectively we can reach an agreement that would deter any future aggression against Ukraine. And I actually think there won't be. I think that's even overrated, largely overrated. But we're going to find out and I think that the European nations are going to take a lot of the burden, we're going to help them and we're going to make it very secure.
- [04:14]
Nicole Wallace
Of course, everybody, everybody at the White House today, vast majority of Americans, vast majority of Ukrainians want peace for Ukraine. The real rub, though, at least for the US is how we get there. In one possible scenario, America stands proudly with her allies, working in coordination with like minded democratic nations to apply pressure on Russia, the aggressor, the instigator of the war in Ukraine. Lest anyone involved forget that in another, the US moves toward Russia and more fully embraces the aggressor and the instigator, advocating for Russia's desired position, Russia's desired concessions from Ukraine against the wishes of some of our allies who came to our aid. Not for nothing in the aftermath of September 11th as our NATO allies, without question. It's worth noting that ahead of today's meetings, after Donald Trump met with Putin on Friday, Russia was seemingly militarily, at least emboldened, launching a deadly assault on Ukrainian cities near the borders, including Kharkiv. Ukrainian officials say 10 people died in those attacks. This live and ongoing and still deadly for the Ukrainians at least. Geopolitical fork in the road is where we begin today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. Former U.S. ambassador to Russia, MSNBC international affairs analyst Ambassador Michael McFaul is back with us. Also back with us, retired U.S. army Lieutenant General Mark Hertling's here. And rounding out our group, former Democratic senator, MSNBC political analyst Claire McCaskill is here. Ambassador McFaul, I'll start with you just on what we've laid out. Where are your thoughts, where are your hopes and where are your fears?
- [06:03]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
Well, I think last Friday that Alaska summit was one of the most disastrous summits that I can think of. Did no good in terms of advancing America's interests. The interests of our allies are Ukraine. And we treated this horrible dictator who terrorizes Ukrainians every single night, as you just showed by killing them through these attacks on civilians. We treated him like he was some special friend of the United States. Today's been a correction to that. There was a good meeting so far, at least the optics, we don't know the substance yet. It's too early to tell. But President Zelensky came. That was smart, whoever's idea that was. And then adding the Europeans, that was a brilliant move. Whose ever idea that was? If that was somebody on Trump's team, I don't know who it was. But it was brilliant because it set the context into something bigger than just about Trump versus Zelensky and that just for Trump, that just reminds them of 2016 and impeachment. The conversation they just had with the cameras on just a few minutes ago put it in a much wider context and secondly, began to correct the framing that Putin had trapped the president into on Friday, this notion that we can't have a ceasefire until we have a full agreement. Where in the diplomatic books does it say that? I've been a diplomat and I've studied diplomacy. All hundreds of years of American diplomacy I studied for my last book. There's no rulebook that says that that was a Putin line, just as you were discussing. I'm glad. Especially the chancellor from Germany said we can revisit that. And then secondly, talking seriously about security guarantees that might include European soldiers in Ukraine, that is progress. I would like it to be a NATO security guarantee rather than a NATO light security guarantee. But if you have to settle for something, that's much better than no security guarantee at all, I saw that was progress. The hard part, of course, comes whether when we get to the issues of territorial land swaps or where the lines will be. But this was a little bit of progress today.
- [08:14]
Nicole Wallace
Let me play Donald Trump on that topic of exchanging territory.
- [08:22]
Donald Trump
We also need to discuss the possible exchanges of territory, taking into consideration the current line of contact. That means the war zone, the war lines that are pretty obvious, very sad actually, to look at them and negotiating positions. President Putin.
- [08:43]
Nicole Wallace
What does that mean? Ambassador McFaul, can you translate that for us?
- [08:47]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
Yes. Well, to the extent I understand President Trump, but when he's talking about exchanges of territory, let's just be crystal clear. He's talking about exchanging Ukraine territory for Ukrainian territory, not talk about Russian territory. He's not talking about Russia leaving maybe these little pieces up in sumi little, little pieces they might leave, but the big swaps are Ukraine for Ukraine. More over to remind everybody from Friday, Putin is demanding that Ukraine leave part of Donbas that Ukrainian soldiers currently control. That is his negotiating position right now. And the idea that we would help to mediate that is completely absurd. And so I hope that that will be one of the ridiculous maximalist points of Putin that might be retired after today's meeting. But it wasn't retired in Alaska. It was alive and well on Friday.
- [09:48]
Nicole Wallace
And just I went in and looked at some maps and tried to remind myself of what the Donbas region is, why it's so bitterly fought over how much of it Russia controls, how much of it Ukraine controls. Can you just talk me through, what is Ukraine's position on any and all of Ukraine's territory?
- [10:13]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
Well, Ukraine's official position, President Zelenskyy's official position, of course, is to restore their territorial integrity to their 1991 borders, which includes Donbas, which includes Crimea. All that WR you're showing, that's, that's should go back to Ukraine. That's their official position. When I talk informally with people in Ukraine, including those close to the president, I think they're ready to concede some control of their territory. They're not going to give it over, but they might agree to this formula that we will only try to reunite our country through peaceful means as long as we get real security guarantees from the west, from NATO, from our European allies and from the United States. And that's a formula that I think is the substantive piece that they should be talking about today. And in my view, the talk about land pieces, that should be between Putin and Zelensky, mediated by us. But that's not our conversation. But then the security guarantee part should be between Ukraine and NATO allies, including us, without Putin at the table. The idea that Putin gets to decide what the security guarantees are. I think that would be a big, big strategic mistake. Keep those conversations separate.
- [11:37]
Nicole Wallace
Jim Hartley, let me bring you in on this. We were all on the air together Friday night. I think everyone was aghast at how far below Trump and the White House's own expectations. Trump and the White House seemed to fall on Friday. The White House had projected a six to seven hour meeting with a sort of state dinner, and the White House ended those meetings with Vladimir Putin hours, hours early. There was a lot of talk, though, on Friday about optics. And I wonder if you compare apples to apples, what strikes you about the optics and the substance of today's meetings?
- [12:21]
Lieutenant General Mark Hertling
I wouldn't compare apples to apples between Friday and today. I'd compare apples to tennis rackets on this one. Completely different. You have a bunch of Europeans sitting around a table who are trying to reframe, as Ambassador McFaul said, what Putin told Trump on Friday. They are playing the gambit of reinforcing what Zelenskyy wants and having Trump understand the implications of first of all giving away territory to Russia, but also the implications long term for Europe, what that might mean in security guarantees. I find it very fascinating that the majority of the folks around the table, Macron, Starmer, others are the usual subjects in these kind of meeting. They're the suspects. I'm sorry, but you now have President Stubb from Finland. This is a guy that has a large border with Russia, didn't have to join NATO, but he did because he saw it as an act of necessity, not something that he wanted to continue as an independent. And the president likes him. I guess they played golf together once or twice, so that's a good thing. He can tell them after a 40 year friendship treaty with Russia, between Finland and Russia, what it's like now to fear the potential of future activities of Russia and how territorial integrity is critically important. When we're talking about the Donbas region, as you just asked Nicole, it's an area that's about the size of the state of New York, Donetsk and Luhansk. It is about 8% of the total territory of Ukraine. But before the war started, they were producing about 16% of the GDP. You then also have to consider in terms of not only the territory, but what does a security guarantee look like if that territory of the Donbas is given back to Russia. I'm old enough to remember doing border patrols between east and West Germany, between the old Czechoslovakia and West Germany, and I know what that entails. It is going to be worse once more when you have a border between Russia, if they cede that territory to them, and an independent Ukraine. Russia is going to continue to try and make mischief like they've done in several other countries throughout Europe. And I can name them. Romania, with election interference, Estonia, with a major cyber attack that shut down all of their systems for over a month Moldova, where they still have troops in a small strip of land called Transnistria, and between Armenia and Azerbaijan, which did just sign a cessation of hostilities after multiple peace treaties or ceasefires. You also have two provinces in Georgia that Russia attacked and in 2008. So you can go through the years and say, here is what Russia has done based on what they said they wouldn't do, in terms of the territorial integrity and the government integrity of a variety of states within Europe. That's what the Europeans around that table with Mr. Trump and Mr. Zelensky are talking about. They know Russia. They fear Russia. They especially fear Russia if they're given a pass on some of the things that, that Mr. Putin is asking for, which puts Zelensky in a distinct disadvantage without a ceasefire and the opportunity to talk more about some of the things that he wants to put on the table.
- [16:08]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, General Herling, correct me if I have this wrong, but the Anchorage summit between Trump and Putin seemed to move Trump and America off the necessity of a ceasefire. And Putin's now negotiating from a better position than he was in before Friday. Is that correct?
- [16:29]
Lieutenant General Mark Hertling
Oh, absolutely. You know, ceasefires are imperfect, Nicole. They're fragile. They're often violated. But they matter because they create breathing space for negotiations. They slow the cycle of vengeance long enough to make words and, and documents matter more than bombs. To skip that step, which is what Putin wants to do and what he's asked Trump to sign up to, is it allows Russia to negotiate while brutalizing Ukraine. It turns diplomacy into a shield for aggression, and that's very, very bad. And it's a very precarious movement for President Zelensky.
- [17:10]
Nicole Wallace
Claire McCaskill. I went back and watched the meeting in the Oval Office, which I've never been able to get through without starting to sweat. It's so bad for America. It's so awful to just sit through and watch. But the thing that sets Vance off is that Zelenskyy hasn't said thank you enough. But the thing that seems to set Trump off, and it's not even clear if you watch it, whether he understands what this position is about. But it's about security guarantees, and Putin has absolutist opposition to what Zelensky means when he talks about security guarantees. What are your thoughts on the substance of what's being discussed and debated today?
- [17:56]
Claire McCaskill
Well, I think, obviously, as, by the way, what an honor it is to be on a panel with General hertling and Ambassador McFaul, a really smart men who have given so much of their lives to the protection of the things we hold dear in this country. And what the substance here, as they've said and laid out very well, is, ceasefire versus territory versus security agreements. It seems to me those are the three legs of the stool. And Trump clearly folded to Putin after Friday on ceasefire. It's very obvious. And he's lying. He's bragged about all these things. He's supposedly peace he's brokered. The White House itself bragged about a ceasefire with Cambodia and when they were talking about the conflict of Cambodia and Thailand. So, you know, and I don't think that Trump can lead this meeting today without a realization that there's the thug and the despot and somebody who doesn't respect democracy or human rights versus all of our friends. I mean, when you are facing someone who has been as inappropriate as Trump was with Zelensky a few months ago, you bring your friends, you bring the democracies of the world, you bring the nations that have always been standing by us. We have stood by each other. And the west respects democracies. They respect the rights of their citizens and the idea that they're all there. And it's Trump and Putin versus all of the good guys. And I just think the optics are great for Zelensky and for Ukraine. And by the way, Ukraine is attacking Russian refineries while Russia is attacking residential buildings. I mean, all you have to do is look at where the line of attack and realize which side is the good guys and which side is the bad guys. And by the way, Russia's got, you know, you talk about a set. They want to give land. They want Ukraine to give them land. They don't even control. They. They don't control all of Donbas, and they're asking for all of Donbas. So rather than Trump saying, are you kidding? He comes back to the White House saying, well, no ceasefire, and we need to talk about giving away all the territory to Russia. I'm really glad Europe's there. I think it could make a difference.
- [20:38]
Nicole Wallace
All right, no one's going anywhere. We have much more on what is happening right now live in this meeting of our traditional Western allies and Ukraine and Donald Trump at the White House. We'll Talk about the view from Ukraine a bit more. Countries still reeling from devastating attacks day in and day out, including the strikes we're talking about from last night. Former National Security Advisor Susan Rice will join us later in the program on what today's meetings say right now about America's place in the world under Donald Trump. Quick break for us. We'll be right back.
- [21:14]
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- [22:15]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
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- [22:44]
Donald Trump
Today.
- [22:46]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
We were able to win the following concession that the United States could offer Article 5 like protection, which is the effect, which is one of the real reasons why Ukraine wants to be in NATO.
- [23:00]
Donald Trump
We sort of were able to bypass.
- [23:02]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
That and, and get an agreement that the that the United States could offer Article 5 protection, which was the first time we had ever heard the Russians agree to that.
- [23:13]
Nicole Wallace
We're back with Ambassador McFaul, General Hartling, former Senator Claire McCaskill. Ambassador, so Russia has said yes to Article 5 protections for Ukraine. Is that something that Russia has confirmed?
- [23:27]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
No, they have not. In fact, they just put out a statement in between the break saying they're categorically against any European soldiers in Ukraine. And just two. I'm sorry, I'm shaking my head about Mr. Witkoff, but I just feel, well, just two factual things. First of all, why are we asking Putin's permission for what we do with the sovereign country Ukraine? What? You know, we didn't ask Khrushchev, are you okay if we create a NATO? President Bush didn't ask Putin, are you okay if we expand NATO to the Baltic states? He didn't do that. He said, we are doing this. It's none of your business. You're not, you are not involved in this. And this linking of what Ukraine is doing with the west to the debates about territory I just think is just such a bad diplomatic move. But the second thing is they didn't agree. They literally just put out a statement contradicting what Mr. Witkoff said. So I don't know who he was listening to. You know, sometimes they don't get it right. But that is not the official, that that concession was not delivered in Alaska, at least according to the Kremlin. Maybe, maybe they're lying, too, but they just put out a statement categorically denying that they had agreed to that.
- [24:48]
Nicole Wallace
Ambassador Faye, you talked about a reframing. I mean, what is the prospect of getting back to where we were before Friday afternoon? I mean, it sounds like Putin succeeded in reestablishing himself. Those pictures will live forever. Walking down a red carpet, shoulder to shoulder. Well, I guess he's shorter than Trump, but next to Donald Trump, glad handed, sort of giving new meaning to the word glad handed. Trump touched him several times with what looked at least to the eye, like affection and affinity. Getting in the beast, getting in the presidential limo, which, as we discussed at the time, if not unprecedented, is exceedingly rare. And then having Mr. Witkoff, who I guess values his credibility on the world stage, I don't know. Being called out as a liar by the Kremlin in his first television appearance after the summit. How much damage did Trump and his national security team do to themselves and America's credibility on the world stage Friday?
- [25:56]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
Well, the short term damage is enormous in my view. Accepting Putin's talking points, talking about trying to convince Zelensky to give up the parts of Donbas that are currently occupied by Ukrainian soldiers. That's a ridiculous place to be in. Moreover, in terms of the short term, I just don't, you know, I've read Art of the Deal a long time ago. I don't understand President Trump's negotiating style. Overnight on Truth Social, he gave away, and I'm using his kind of language, not mine. Two of his strongest cards. When he said Zelensky has to recognize Crimea and Ukraine cannot be a part of NATO. Now, I don't think those cards should ever be played, but if you have those cards, you should play them to get something, Mr. President, from those cards. Okay, we're going to keep them out of NATO. What do we get from you, Mr. Putin, in return? So the short term, I just think, is damaging. The longer term, however, Nicole, might be a good news story for America. You and I have talked a lot about autocrats versus Democrats on this show over the last several years. And you know what? Most Americans agree with you and me. Most Americans know who's good and evil in this conflict. How many polls do we see where 80% of Americans agree? Very rarely. But they agree that Putin is a bad guy. They don't trust Putin. And I think Trump is underestimating the American people on this. My next book is called Autocrats versus Democrats, by the way, partly inspired by our conversations. And it's a book not written for American foreign policy officials, but to the American people, to try to make the argument why this fiasco in Alaska is not the American way, it's not in American values, and it doesn't serve America's national security interests. And I think Putin, I think Trump may have overreached on this case, and I think that in the long term, could be good for getting us back on track after the Trump administration is over.
- [27:59]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah, I mean, General Hartling, there's all of the geopolitics. There's life and death. I mean, every. Every minute that Ukraine is living, that its civilians are living in terror and its soldiers are fighting valiantly for every inch of their own. All this war is being waged inside one country, inside Ukraine, and there are some audacious strikes in Russia, but these are Ukrainians defending their own territory. Trading that to an autocrat is unpopular. If you can package some sort of achievement, trading that for an autocrat, when you deliver, nothing is a face plant, even by MAGA media standards. I mean, what is your sense of how much leverage America has right now?
- [28:42]
Lieutenant General Mark Hertling
Well, we should have a whole lot of leverage, Nicole. That's the unfortunate part. But I'm going to go to the press conference that occurred in the Oval Office. Before the meetings took place, two things were said, one by the President, another by a reporter. The president said this was Biden's war. No, this was not Biden's war. This is not Zelensky's capability of stopping this war. This was Putin's war. He decided to do it. He was thinking about it for a very long time, probably over 10 years. And he conducted it even after he was warned not to do it. The other thing that was insulting to me was when a reporter, and I don't want to name the name of the guy, but he asked President Zelensky as the first question, how many more people are you going to send to their death before you really go toward a peace conference? This is a guy who's been fighting for his life, whose citizens support him, whose army continues to fight because they know the importance of what's going on. They are looking for territorial integrity and sovereignty of a nation. Those are important things. Doing anything else is just contrary to the reasons you have an army. Unfortunately, President Trump is susceptible, as we said already many times, to Putin's framing. He's eager for shortcuts. He's inattentive to the very hard realities of what a nation will continue to fight to defend. And all of that is dangerous when you're talking about life and death situation, and especially the number of people on both sides, Russian and Ukrainian sides, who have sacrificed their lives for what at least one side believes in, and that's the Ukrainian side of continuing to fight for what they know is right.
- [30:40]
Nicole Wallace
Claire McCaskill on Friday, Donald Trump used some time at a very short press conference. I think it was about 11 and a half minutes long. But he talked on multiple occasions about going through the Russia hoax together with Vladimir Putin. How much of a sort of subtext or overt text is his perception that there's something between him and Putin, some bond? How much do you think that is weighing on the world order? I guess if that's what's at stake in terms of how the war in Ukraine ends.
- [31:15]
Claire McCaskill
Well, it's pretty obvious to everyone from the first term and now the second term that Donald Trump sees Putin much differently than most of the good guys in the world do, and frankly, much differently than most of America does. Now, let's be political here for a minute. Donald Trump's base is split on whether or not we should be helping Ukraine. But once you take off the folks that think we should help Ukraine and add all the independent voters and the Democratic voters, you get the vast majority of Americans who understand that Putin's the bad guy and he attacked Ukraine and is trying to go after their territory and their sovereignty, and that's just pretty simple. But I think it's important to point out, too, Nicole, the insidious thing that's happened with the press corps in the White House watching that press conference today. I think everybody needs to realize how Donald Trump has shaped the people who are asking questions. That guy who looked at Zelensky and said how many people you sending to their death when everybody in America knows that it was Zelensky that is trying to defend his people from an attack of Russia. I mean that guy is from this right wing media and he's shaped the press corps. So the questions are being asked and therefore the tone of the press conference is pro Putin. That's really dangerous and people need to pay attention to what's going on because that's not the press corps that the White House has typically had. It is being skewed towards the propaganda of Putin.
- [32:56]
Nicole Wallace
It is indeed. And Donald Trump is furious at anyone that covers the truth about this story and any others. I witnessed that firsthand myself. Ambassador Michael McFaul, Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, thank you both so much for starting us off once again. Claire sticks around for the hour after the break for us. Journalist Simon Schuster joins us on how Ukrainians are reacting to how Donald Trump is handling negotiations potentially to bring an end to the war. Stay with us. So first of all, you know, we live under each day attacks. You know that today been a lot of attacks and a lot of wounded people. And the child was dead small 111 year and a half. So we, we need to stop this war to stop Russia and we need support American and European partners. We will do our best for this. And I think we show that we are strong people and we support the idea of the United States personally of President Trump to stop this war, to make a diplomatic way of finishing this war. And we are ready for trilateral. That was President Zelensky in the Oval Office today reminding Donald Trump and the world of the barrage of attacks that Vladimir Putin is still launching on his country and the human toll. He talked about a one and a half year old child who was killed. President Zelensky is describing a strike last night that killed 14 Ukrainians. Actually there were two children among those killed. As we said earlier, that attack took place after Zelenskyy arrived in Washington and of course after Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin Anchorage summit attacks like that one add to growing skepticism from the Ukrainian people that today's White House summit will be productive for anyone other than Vladimir Putin. More from the Times reporting on that quote, Kyiv residents said they feared that Mr. Trump would use the meeting on Monday to put pressure on Mr. Zelensky to accept Mr. Putin's demands to end the war, including that Ukraine cede all of its eastern Donbas region, including. Including areas that its troops still control. Joining our conversation is senior correspondent for Time magazine covering Russia and Ukraine and President Zelensky. Simon Schuster is here. Thank you so much for joining us today.
- [35:25]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
Thank you.
- [35:26]
Simon Schuster
Thank you.
- [35:27]
Nicole Wallace
Take me inside President Zelenskyy's strategy for dealing with a post Anchorage Trump White House.
- [35:38]
Simon Schuster
Yeah, it's been pretty consistent. I spoke to him just a few weeks after the big blow up in the Oval Office at the end of Febr. That was, of course, a big setback for his relationship with Donald Trump. But since then, he's been very consistently trying to get it back on track by convincing Trump of a couple of very simple ideas that Putin cannot be trusted. He will not negotiate in good faith, and the only way to reach a reasonable end to this war is by showing strength, by putting pressure on Russia and continuing to arm Ukraine. He's delivered this message very consistently through quiet conversations, back channels and through direct talks, phone calls with President Trump. That's what he's doing again today. And it seems to be working, at least when the Russians are not whispering in Trump's ear. When the Alaska summit happened, Trump came out of there with some strange ideas about, hey, we don't actually need a ceasefire. But now Zelensky has the room with Trump, as do Zelensky's and Trump's European allies. So they're trying to pull him back to reality and clear out some of the ideas that Trump, excuse me, that Putin was trying to plant in Trump's head.
- [36:50]
Nicole Wallace
When you mentioned reality, if you think about how many times Donald Trump said on camera, we played it at the beginning of the hour, including in an interview sitting on Air Force One right before meeting Putin, to Fox News Bret Baier, that he needs a ceasefire or he's, quote, going to be very unhappy. Trump's over and over again, need a ceasefire, need a ceasefire, need a ceasefire, meets with Putin and no longer needs a ceasefire. What does Zelenskyy do to navigate the lack of rigor in the intelligence process and the lack of Trump's ability to stand strong in the face of Vladimir Putin?
- [37:27]
Simon Schuster
He presents the arguments and it seems that Trump is susceptible to reason. He at least changes his mind depending on the last person he spoke to.
- [37:37]
Nicole Wallace
But President Zelensky, that's true.
- [37:40]
Simon Schuster
Yeah, it's a clear tendency. And President Zelensky, he presents the facts on the ground. You played this clip of him talking about the attack that happened just as he arrived in Washington. And that, of course, Trump hears that. He sees those images and he has trouble Understanding why Putin cannot stop the attacks on civilians, the bombing of civilian areas, even for a couple of days, to let that peace process take root for a while. Trump seemed to get quite frustrated with that and in the beginning of August, even began to apply sanctions pressure to impose tariffs on Russia's allies who were buying Russian oil. That is when it seems Putin put up his hands and said, hey, let's have this summit in Alaska. And after that, Trump again backed away from his threats of sanctions and really all other means of pressure on Russia. We haven't come back to that yet. I don't know. One thing I'm looking for today after these talks in the White House, is to see whether the Europeans, as they've been trying to do, and President Zelensky can really encourage Trump to consider applying the economic might and power that the United States has to get Putin to negotiate to make him stop bombing those civilian areas in Ukraine.
- [39:00]
Nicole Wallace
What is Zelensky's thesis on all of the actions meant to favor Putin, not just his position in these negotiations, but elevating him to the world stage, removing all of the things inside the U.S. department of justice, the U.S. department of State? I mean, we had a government that recognized Russia as an adversary and a threat. We do not under Donald Trump. What is Zelensky's thesis on why that is?
- [39:26]
Simon Schuster
Yeah, I put that question to him soon after that blow up in the Oval Office at a time when President Trump was having quite intense direct talks with Putin on the phone and inviting Russian envoys to visit the White House. I mean, Zelenskyy said it appears that Russian propaganda, Russian messaging is getting through to some members of the White House team, and it's influencing them. It's making them accept the Russian worldview and the Russian vision of this war. He didn't name any names, but there have been officials like Steve Witkoff, who has come back from the Kremlin, visiting and talking to Putin in Moscow and other parts of Russia, where he's come back really repeating a lot of the Russian talking points. And of course, he comes back to the White House and he makes those arguments to President Trump so often. Like I said, it depends on who was the last person that Trump spoke to. President Zelenskyy didn't have any better explanation than that. Of course, he can't see into Trump's soul, into his mind. He doesn't know what ultimately drives him, but that was his best theory.
- [40:35]
Nicole Wallace
Sami Schuster, thank you for joining us with your reporting and your keen insights on all the players coming up for US Donald Trump uses a high profile meeting with global stakes to rant about mail in ballots. We'll explain the connections next.
- [40:57]
Donald Trump
Mail in ballots are corrupt. Mail in ballots. You can never have a real democracy with mail in ballots. And we as a Republican Party are going to do everything possible that we get rid of mail in ballots. We're going to start with an executive order that's being written right now by the best lawyers in the country to end mail in ballots because they're corrupt. And, and you know that we're the only country in the world, I believe I may be wrong, but just about the only country in the world that uses them because of what's happened.
- [41:31]
Nicole Wallace
We're going to just cut it right there because all of that is completely false. The United States is one of many countries that uses mail in voting, including Canada, the UK, Germany, Australia and Switzerland. Also important to note, there's zero evidence of widespread, widespread voter fraud. And Trump has been looking. But that is how Donald Trump, the current President of the United States, who as the New York Times reports, has himself voted through mail in voting, chose to spend his time today in the middle of what we've been talking about, this high stakes diplomacy, promising an executive order to address one of his longest standing and most dangerous unfounded delusions that he didn't actually lose the 2020 presidential election. Another fact check. Trump literally does not have the power to do any of this. According to the Constitution, the power to set the, quote, times, places and manner, end quote, of elections lies with the states. And only Congress has the ability to override state laws on voting. We're back with Claire. I mean, let me just point out what happened just today. Trump tweets, I'm going to lead a movement to get rid of mail in ballots. And also while we're at it, highly inaccurate, very expensive and seriously controversial voting machines. Well, those voting machines prevailed today. At least one of those companies, Dominion against Newsmax, winning millions of dollars to settle the lies told about Dominion voting systems, at least. I mean, what is this obsession and delusion at this point about Claire and where is it heading?
- [43:06]
Claire McCaskill
You know, it's just fascinating to me because I think Putin did this. I think our last guest talked about whoever talked to him last wins. And I think Putin said something about mail in ballots and that's where this is coming from. And by the way, do you remember during the election, Nicole, that he, at the beginning of the campaign was saying, oh, mail in ballots are terrible. And then Susie Wiles and Chris Evita and all of them that are doing the public say, you've got to quit saying that we have to have mail in ballots. We have a lot of elderly voters that use mail in ballots and have for years quit saying that. And then Trump began to talk about going ahead and voting early and using mail in ballots. And I could make the argument that had he not turned that around at the end of the campaign, some of those really close margins in those swing states could have gone against him. So he can say this all he wants. All he's doing when he says this is convincing his voters not to use mail in ballots. That's not very smart. That is not very smart. Because I got news for him. I do not think there's any way the Constitution is going to allow him to do away with either mail in voting or election voting machines. And as you said, Nicole, if there was fraud there, don't you think they would have found it by now? They've been looking for it for how many years? Right?
- [44:35]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah. I mean, inappropriately. Bill Barr went out looking for it because Trump was ranting about it in an unfounded manner. Claire, it is never dull and it is always a gift to have you here with us. Thank you so much for spending the hour with us. You bet. Another break for us. We'll be right back.
- [44:54]
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- [45:25]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
MSNBC presents the chart topping original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. Each each week, Nicole speaks with some of the people who inspire her the most. This week she sits down with podcaster John Lovett. The more you can make that big group of pro democracy Americans feel like they're part of one big movement, the more powerful that gets and the more success we'll have. The best people with Nicole Wallace. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts. Start your day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter each morning. Read sharp insights from the voices you trust. Catch standout moments from your favorite shows.
- [46:04]
Nicole Wallace
The second Trump administration has gone to unprecedented lengths to radically transform America.
- [46:10]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
Stay up to speed with our latest podcasts and documentaries and get fresh perspectives from experts shaping the news. It's everything you love about MSNBC delivered to your inbox. Sign up now@msnbc.com.
- [46:27]
Nicole Wallace
The Democratic lawmakers from the state of Texas have returned home after a weeks long standoff with Republicans there over their blatantly partisan redistricting effort that comes at the request of Donald Trump. They had prevented Texas Republicans from passing this redrawn map during a first special legislative session, and their efforts likely spurred California Democrats to counter the Republican effort with their own redistricting proposal. But now a second special session has been called and with enough Democrats present, Republicans will be able to advance their new mid decade map. The chair of the Texas House Democrats said this in a statement, quote, we killed the corrupt special session, withstood unprecedented surveillance and intimidation and rallied Democrats nationwide to join this existential fight for fair representation, reshaping the entire 2026 landscape. We are returning to Texas more dangerous to Republicans plans than when we left. Our return allows us to build the legal record necessary to defeat this racist map in court, take our message to communities across the state and country, and inspire others how to fight these undemocratic redistricting schemes in their own state houses. Coming up for us in the next hour of deadline, White House will return to our big story, the summit of world leaders at the White House right now. After a quick break. Don't go anywhere.