"Freeze-frame, record-scratch"

Summary

Deadline: White House – “Freeze-frame, record-scratch”

Host: Nicolle Wallace
Date: January 20, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode tackles the escalating constitutional, military, and societal crises stemming from President Donald Trump’s unprecedented foreign and domestic actions during his second term. Wallace and her panel—including national security expert Tom Nichols, retired Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, and Congressman Seth Moulton—discuss the hypothetical and very real dangers of Trump ordering military action against a NATO ally (Denmark/Greenland), how this threatens the very fabric of American alliances and democracy, and the legal and moral quandaries now facing military and congressional leaders. The second half pivots to aggressive new ICE tactics in Minneapolis and across the country, with field reporting by Jacob Soboroff and Antonia Hilton giving voice to those resisting federal overreach in immigrant communities.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. "A Freeze-frame, Record-scratch Moment" for U.S. Alliances and Military (01:06–17:10, 20:12–27:27)

Wallace sets the stage for an unprecedented crisis: the President openly discussing potential military action against Greenland (a Danish territory), risking direct conflict with NATO allies and profound ethical dilemmas for U.S. military personnel.

• Tom Nichols’ Analysis:

  • American military officers face orders contradicting everything their training has instilled: “They would have to decide that everything they've done was pointed in the wrong direction… now the Danes are the enemy” (04:10).
  • Emphasizes the “shocking level of betrayal” this represents for U.S. servicemembers and the “stunning silence of so many generals and admirals, active duty and retired, who know this and who know it better than anyone” (04:50).

• General Hertling’s View:

  • Recalls years of close military cooperation with European allies—“We know their government, we know both their strengths and some of their weaknesses” (05:28).
  • Highlights the legal and moral impossibility: “It would not only violate international law... it would also violate domestic law. All military officers who swear the oath... would have to question and would have to get legal advice on. But… I wouldn’t need any legal advice. I would say it's illegal...” (06:22).

• On Illegal Orders

  • Hertling: “If they were asked… to attack Greenland, that would be an illegal order… I'm hoping that [active duty leaders] are fighting behind the scenes to say, we can't do this, Mr. President, this is wrong.” (08:08)

2. The Congressional Dilemma: Will Anyone Stand Up? (09:48–18:16)

• Rep. Seth Moulton (D-MA):

  • Skeptical of Cabinet internal resistance: “If you think his Cabinet… is going to invoke the 25th amendment, you’re on cloud nine. You’re out of touch with reality.” (10:36)
  • Calls for impeachment debate: “We should actually have a debate about whether this president deserves to be impeached.” (10:50)
  • On GOP silence: “The question is just how many Americans have to die? …before they're willing to find the simple courage to risk losing their job, like losing their reelection, to do the right thing for the country?” (12:04)
  • Cites the stock market’s $1.5 trillion plunge as potential wake-up call. (13:15)

• Hypocrisy of Congressional GOP:

  • Moulton recounts how Republicans are privately critical but publicly silent: “I've had a lot of Republicans come up to me and privately say it is totally absurd that the President … would be talking about taking Greenland. …All of these guys are silent…” (14:18)
  • Adds: “[Republicans] privately decry this and publicly won't whisper a word.” (15:07)

3. International Alarm

• Ed Davey (UK MP):
  • “President Trump is acting like an international gangster. …He is a bully. He thinks he can grab whatever he wants, using force if necessary. And he is corrupt. The most corrupt President the United States has ever seen.” (15:33)
  • Concludes: “There are only two ways of getting him to back down: Bribing him… or standing up to him… That’s the choice.” (15:48)

4. Existential Threat to Democracy, Law, and the West (20:12–27:27)

• New Global Dynamic:

  • Wallace and Nichols discuss how close allies—Canada, Britain, Denmark, France—are now openly recalibrating relationships with the U.S., even preparing militarily.

    “We have the Canadians with NATO... talking about us as if we are a putative enemy… because of these deranged plans from one man that no one seems to be able to say no to…” —Tom Nichols (21:06)

• Nichols Warns:

  • “I think the American people don't realize the level of danger they're in and the level of danger… their way of life is in if all this comes apart.” (22:19)

• General Hertling’s Stark Assessment:

  • “We're close to an existential crisis because we're talking about the existence of… not only our major security alliance… but also the crisis between the government, the institutions of the government, the military, the courts and the people.” (24:06)
  • “I'm more concerned today than I have ever been before. And you know me to be an optimistic person. I'm starting to lose some of that optimism.” (25:27)
  • On rebuilding after: “If someone's not writing a Plan 2029 right now to say how we can fix all these damaged goods and right the ship, we're in more trouble.” (26:06)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You would be ordering [officers] to do something they have been trained never to do.” —Tom Nichols (03:35)
• “It would not only violate international law, invading another country, it would also violate domestic law. …I would say it's illegal to violate the oath and attack an alliance nation…” —Gen. Hertling (06:22)
• “This is what happens when you fail to discipline a child… you give in when he does thing after thing that just completely emasculates Congress…” —Rep. Moulton (12:24)
• “President Trump is acting like an international gangster. …He is a bully... only two ways of getting him to back down: Bribing him or standing up to him… That’s the choice.” —Ed Davey, UK MP (15:33–16:28)
• “We're close to an existential crisis… talking about the existence of a democratic nation.” —Gen. Hertling (24:16)

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ICE Raids in Minneapolis: Aggressive, Widespread Tactics & Community Resistance (28:00–43:31)

1. The Human Impact of “Federal Troops” in Cities

Wallace pivots to ICE raids and mass deportations, focusing on Minneapolis, where the killing of Renee Nicole Goode and militarized ICE presence have galvanized protests.

• Jacob Soboroff reporting from Minneapolis:

  • Community outrage “hasn’t stopped people since the killing of Renee Nicole Goode… They are emboldened. …Indiscriminate, widespread raids, masked, heavily armed federal agents taking largely nonviolent people off the streets. It's not the worst of the worst.” (29:36)
  • Local officials now face subpoenas for alleged obstruction; same federal playbook seen in LA and Chicago (30:55).

• Police Chief Mark Brulee (Brooklyn Park, MN):

  • “What we're hearing is they're being stopped in traffic stops or on the street with no cause and being forced to demand paperwork… Every one of these individuals is a person of color.” (31:44)
  • Off-duty police (of color) are also being stopped by ICE to “show their papers.” (32:27)

Community Voices:

• “It's absolutely terrifying… My whole body just freezes up… having to explain this to your children, who are worried about their friends.” —Jessica, Minneapolis protester (34:30)
• “If you're silent, you're not gonna make a difference.” —Jessica (35:07)
• Wallace: “Their indictment of people's silence is giving me life.” (35:34)

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2. Exclusive Reporting: Violent ICE Tactics Nationwide (36:10–43:31)

• Antonia Hilton on ICE/Border Patrol violence:

  • Houston case: masked, unmarked men (ICE/Border Patrol) violently stop, chase, ram car of undocumented father and 16-year-old U.S. citizen son; both tackled to ground—son held in a banned chokehold, needed hospitalization; father deported after agents allegedly threaten his son with juvenile detention (36:10–42:46).
    • “While the son ends up released, the father is taken to an immigration detention center… agents told him if he didn’t immediately sign his deportation papers, they would send his son to juvie.” (42:44)
    • “This is emblematic… as Donald Trump executes essentially this unprecedented mass deportation campaign.” (37:24)

• On the spread of border tactics into U.S. cities:

  • “Border Patrol… once upon a time was seen… as sort of the reckless little sibling… now promoted by Donald Trump, by Border Czar Homan. They have taken over roughly half of the field offices run by ICE and brought the culture and tactics that were once used in sort of cartel land into everyday cities and communities.” (41:34)
  • “Americans will start to see more and more of this as that culture spreads further into the interior.” (42:32)

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Additional Key Segments & Timestamps

• 00:00–01:04: Advertisements (omitted)
• 19:01–20:12: Commentary on global shifts — Canadian PM Mark Carney on the dangers of weaponized economic integration.
• 27:10–28:00: Transition into local impact (ICE protests).
• 43:32–44:25: Sign-off and upcoming Best People podcast (omitted for summary).

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Summary Table of Key Segments

| Timestamp | Topic | Speakers | |------------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|--------------------------------| | 01:06–09:48 | Military facing reversal: planning vs. allies, illegality of possible orders | Wallace, Nichols, Hertling | | 09:48–18:16 | Congressional impotence, impeachment, GOP silence | Wallace, Moulton | | 15:33–16:28 | International criticism—Ed Davey in U.K. parliament | Davey | | 20:12–27:27 | Existential crisis for democracy/alliance, need for future repair | Wallace, Nichols, Hertling | | 28:00–31:44 | Protests and aggressive ICE tactics in Minneapolis | Wallace, Soboroff | | 31:44–35:34 | Civil rights violations, police and citizens stopped for papers, community protester interviews | Brulee, Soboroff, Protesters | | 36:10–43:31 | Aggressive ICE/Border Patrol actions nationwide, family story in Houston, system-wide policy change | Hilton, Wallace |

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Tone & Language

• The discussion is urgent, somber, and direct, using vivid and sometimes hyperbolic comparisons (“existential crisis,” “international gangster”) but grounded in the expertise and lived experience of military and political leaders.
• Wallace maintains a facilitative and at times incredulous tone, giving space for experts and witnesses to deliver firsthand perspectives.
• Field reporting segments amplify outrage and resistance, with plainspoken, emotional language from citizens and local officials.

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Takeaways

• The Trump administration's actions have not only destabilized the postwar international order but place American military, legal, and ethical norms under direct threat.
• The chain of command, Congress, and the American people are being confronted with dilemmas and dangers few thought possible.
• On the domestic front, the mass deployment of ICE/Border Patrol with militarized tactics inside U.S. cities is generating unprecedented fear, protests, and community solidarity, but also chaos and potential rights violations.
• Both segments converge in depicting a country at a crossroad: law, democracy, and long-standing alliances are at risk from unchecked executive action, and the costs—economic, social, and human—are mounting visibly every day.

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Transcript

[A]

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[C]

Let me put this in words you.

[D]

Might understand, Mr. President. Off. Hi again everybody. It's at five o' clock in New York. One of those freeze frame record scratch moments. You're probably wondering how we got here. As the old saying goes, when those are the first words from the mouth of a Danish representative to the European Parliament, a far right one at that. Denmark, remember, lost more soldiers per capita in Afghanistan than the nation responsible for invoking Article 5 as part of that conflict in the first place. The nation it jumped to defend. The nation now threatening the sovereignty of its territory in Greenland. Yes, us, the United States of America. As we speak, our NATO allies who stood with us shoulder to shoulder in our hour of crisis and tragedy and need, are grappling with hypotheticals, scenarios they never dreamed of in their darkest nightmares, things they never thought they'd be forced to address and plan for. Sadly, they have that in common with American military leadership. As Tom Nichols writes in the Atlantic today, quote, american officers know what Trump is planning. The world knows it because Trump won't stop saying it. And their minds will rebel at directives to take everything they've prepared to do for years and apply it backwards against the people they have trained to work with and protect. The President, in other words, will be ordering them to do something they have been trained never to do. Should Donald Trump pursue this scheme of conquest, the military's training will have to be shattered and reassembled into a destructive version of itself. As if doctors were asked to take life saving medicines, reconstitute them as poisonous isomers and then administer them to patients. A former senior NATO and Pentagon official tells Ms. Now this Quote, any move touching Danish territory would immediately be framed as an alliance matter, pushing coordination through NATO with the eu, reinforcing the political and economic dimensions. And so our revered and beloved servicemen and women up and down the chain of command may soon be forced to reckon with what would be an historic betrayal of our very closest allies and friends, all in service of what Donald Trump describes as his own psychological need. That is where we start the hour with some of our favorite experts and friends. The aforementioned staff writer of the Atlantic, a contributor to the Atlantic Daily Newsletter, Tom Nichols is here. He's a professor emeritus of national security affairs at the US Naval War College, where he taught for more than two decades. Also joining us, Lieutenant General Mark Hertling. He served as the commanding general of the US army in Europe. Tom, I think you flesh out in really disturbing ways what people who have covered this understand to be the case. We would be at war with our allies. But you describe what that means for the men and women of the military, and I'm going to ask both of you to take me through what that means and what that looks like. But, Tom, you write about it, so tell me more.

[E]

They would have to basically decide that everything that they've done was pointed in the wrong direction, that after years of training with our allies, with the Danes, to fight against foreign threats, outside threats, to Europe, to Denmark, to the North Atlantic community of which we are all a part, to the United States, that we would have to stop all of that, turn around and literally do everything backwards and say, now the Danes are the enemy. We have to invade their territory in the way that we once assumed someone else would do that. And I think it's a shocking level of betrayal that we're asked, asking our men and women in uniform to do. And, you know, while I'm it's an honor to be here with Mark, I, I'm just stunned at the silence of so many generals and admirals, active duty and retired, who know this and who know it better than anyone about what a kind of, you know, mental and emotional reversal this would be for people that have trained never to do the thing that they're going to be ordered to do.

[C]

General Hartling yeah, I'll just add to what Tom said, is that when you're talking about Europe, which I spent about a quarter of a third of my career in Europe and working with allies across the board, there are 49 different countries in Europe, 31 of them are part of the NATO alliance with US and Canada. So that's 32. And what I'd say is my last year in command in 2013, Nicole, we did 435 multinational exercises of different types. So sometimes we would go with five countries, sometimes we would go with 10, sometimes it was just a one on one with another country. So Tom is exactly right. We have developed friendships, training, and exercised with these individual nations with their armies. We know their government, we know both their strengths and some of their weaknesses.

[D]

Their.

[C]

But this is just insane from the standpoint of what you're asking the military to potentially do against allied nations that are part of a security alliance that dates back to 1947. And I'd add to that, one of the factors in that security alliance is the fact that President Truman was one of the instigators of NATO. He signed the original document, and then a couple of months later, the Senate approved it by a vote of something like 86 to 13. So when you're talking about what the military might be asked to do, it would not only violate international law invading another country, the sovereignty of another country, it would also violate domestic law. And this would be something that all military officers who swear the oath to the Constitution would have to question and would have to get legal advice on. But, but truthfully, I'll tell you, I wouldn't need any legal advice. I would say it's illegal to violate the oath and attack an alliance nation unless some things have changed. And it doesn't appear anything has changed because Mr. Trump is playing ad hoc ism like he does quite a bit.

[D]

Well, I think you've pushed open a door that we cover here all the time in the menacing harassment now criminal investigation from DOJ and the FBI and for Senator Kelly from the Pentagon, of the six lawmakers who told the men and women of the military never to follow an illegal order, I mean, are you saying, General Hurtling, that if they were asked to get the words out of my mouth, attack Greenland, that that would be an illegal order?

[C]

Well, if it were to happen tomorrow, then yes, because Greenland by statute is part of Denmark, which is an allied nation, part of the 32 members of NATO. So you brought up at the top of the show about how it would institute a dynamic within the NATO headquarters, where the key questions of both Article 4 and Article 5 is, do you have to be protected from some type of foreign invasion if you're a member of NATO, and do you come together in Brussels to debate that? So any nation that might be attacked, in this case Denmark, one of their outlying islands, has been attacked. So they would immediately go to NATO headquarters and say, let's invoke those articles that NATO is so famous for. So, yeah, it would be illegal in my view to do that. Now, I'm not a lawyer or an international affairs guru in terms of the legal implications of something like that, but I gotta tell you, Nicole, if I was in command of a large organization and was asked to do that, I certainly would throw the question down. Tom was baiting me a minute ago. He knows to do that very well, saying, where are the rest of the military guys standing up to say this? Well, some of them will stand up and there have been several that have already retired. You're never going to see the active duty guys say this, but I'm hoping that they are fighting behind the scenes to say, we can't do this, Mr. President, this is wrong. And that's the kind of thing we saw in the first administration when General Milley and General Kelly and Secretary Esper were all telling him he could not do the kinds of things he wanted to do.

[D]

Well, and a lot of what he was, what Milley and Esper were telling him not to do, he steamrolled through and done in this second term, before the one year anniversary since his second inauguration. I want to bring into our ongoing conversation Democratic Congressman Seth Moulton of Massachusetts. He's a member of the House Armed Services Committee. He served four tours in Iraq as a United States Marine. Congressman in Trump 1.0 came on the air and described reporting about conversations among Trump's cabinet to invoke the 25th Amendment for a whole lot less than attacking Greenland. What is happening, if anything, in Congress around this issue?

[F]

Well, we're talking about what Congress can do, which is impeachment. Because if you think that his administration, his Cabinet, which is just a total bunch of lackeys in his second term here, is going to invoke the 25th amendment. You're on cloud nine. You're out of touch with reality here. What Congress should be doing is debating what we can actually do to stop what he's threatening to Greenland, what he's threatening to do to undermine NATO, what he's threatening to do to put 18 year old kids on the line on the beach in Greenland where they could get shot by allies. We should stop that and then we should actually have a debate about whether this president deserves to be impeached.

[D]

What is your sense of, I mean, every week there is some sealed document that is released that reveals that privately Lindsey Graham, for example, in the election interference cases in Georgia said that if Martians told Donald Trump that the election had been stolen, he would have believed him. But publicly, I think he actually carries his golf bag. I'm not insulting him right now, although I have no problem doing so. He actually carries his golf bag around. Kevin McCarthy picked his Starburst flavors and privately called for the 25th Amendment or impeachment. After the insurrection of January 6th, what is the actual prospect of any Republican acting publicly in line with their private condemnations of Donald Trump?

[F]

I mean, the question is just how many Americans have to die? How many American lives have to be on the line before they're willing to find the simple courage to risk losing their job, like losing their reelection, to do the right thing for the country? Because you already see several Republicans who are not running for reelection, people like Senator Thom Tillis, people like Representative Don Bacon, speaking out against these absurd ideas of this sort of man child president. But this is what happens, Republicans. This is what happens when you fail to discipline a child. When you all got together with the Democrats and said January 6th should never have happened and it should never happen again, and then a few days later, you give in when he does thing after thing that just completely emasculates Congress, that gives us the title of the weakest Congress in American history, and you do nothing to stop it. Now he's doing things that will really hurt the people you care about. It's kind of amazing that as Trump has gone through his terrorists, his one big beautiful bill, kids are starving, Americans are losing their health care. But these are all people that Trump doesn't really care about. All of a sudden now, with the stock market losing one and a half trillion dollars today, maybe these Republicans will wake up and say, Mr. President, it's finally time for you to stop.

[D]

As you said, the stock market had a calamitous day. It was all about this instability, manufactured instability. Stock's post biggest drop in months as tensions over Greenland mount. This is a story, though, more sort of farcical than the fictional version in Wag the Dog. He's fixated on, quote, ownership. He doesn't even own a house. He lives at Mar a Lago, a club, a membership club. What is your understanding as a member of Congress of what this is about? I mean, you've got Besant on the Sunday show saying, yeah, we got to have Greenland. I looked for all of Besant's career, he's never said anything about Greenland. I mean, to your point, he's almost hypnotized a cabinet and one of the two political parties in the country. Does anyone know why.

[F]

Not that I've heard. And I'm not a child psychologist, so I can't understand the mind of Donald Trump. But what I have heard from fellow Republicans is that they think this is ridiculous. I've had a lot of Republicans come up to me and privately say it is totally absurd that the President of the United States would be talking about taking Greenland. I've not had a single Republican make the case to me that it's a good idea. And yet all of these guys are silent, even over Venezuela, just over the boat strikes. Before we went in and risked dozens and dozens of American, well, a couple hundred American lives with the risky operation to take out Maduro, even just with the boat strikes, I heard Republicans say a lot of them, if Biden were doing this, we'd be raising bloody hell. So this is another story of congressional cowardice. And it's headlined by the Republicans right now who privately decry this and publicly won't whisper a word.

[D]

The willingness to speak out has not yet sort of frozen all critiques. Let me show you what Ed Davy, a British Member of Parliament and leader of the Liberal Democrats Party, had to say.

[G]

Madam Deputy Speaker, President Trump is acting like an international gangster.

[H]

Hear, hear.

[G]

It is time for the government to change course. We have to finally be clear eyed about the sort of man Trump is and treat him accordingly. He is a bully. He thinks he can grab whatever he wants, using force if necessary. And he is corrupt. The most corrupt President the United States has ever seen. So there are only two ways of getting him to back down. Bribing him with a new jet, perhaps, or a few billion his crypto account, or standing up to him like we would with any other bully, standing together with our European allies to make him back down. That's the choice. Which one, Foreign Secretary?

[D]

I mean, this isn't theoretical and I know we have sort of a self obsession here, but the world is making dramatic adjustments and it is not about going it alone as America. It is about being at odds with our allies. Has that changed any of what's happening in Congress among Republicans or Democrats?

[F]

You know, I think in the private confines of classified briefs on the Armed Services Committee, you'll hear Republicans say, this is nuts, this is crazy, this is not in our interest. But the question is, when will they say that on the House floor? And by the way, while the Europeans are debating exactly what their response will be, almost any response will raise prices for American consumers. In just the last day we've seen the stock market lose more value than the cost of Greenland and guess what? We don't have Greenland yet. So this is hurting a lot of American people. Why? Why couldn't the president actually focus on things like making sure people can afford health care, as Democrats are trying to do about lowering costs, like actually making sure that people can afford homes? Kids are graduating from college right now and not even dreaming of owning a home in the next decade. These are things that we should actually be focused on. And instead, the president is wasting trillions of taxpayer value, billions probably of taxpayer dollars and the reputation that America has earned since the greatest generation of World War II, all because he has a personal vendetta that he didn't get a Nobel Peace Prize. This is dangerous and it is not helping the American people.

[D]

And we should point it against the wrong country. I mean, it's clear that his vendetta isn't even directed in the right direction. Congressman Seth Moulton, thank you.

[F]

Oh, no, no. Geography was never one of his strong suits.

[D]

Nicole, I remember the hurricane map with the sharpie. So, yes, I unfortunately have covered the pattern of. Yeah, the arrows. Congressman, thank you for being part of our coverage today. I want to bring the general and Tom Nichols back in on this. I have to sneak in a break before I do that. We'll pick that up on the other side. Also ahead for us, the city of Minneapolis under siege by ICE agents who have used increasingly brutal tactics against migrants and asylum seekers and US Citizens alike. The community is fighting back today. In this hour. We're expecting a large protest against ICE there. A French Soboroff is there. Will join us and join our coverage later in the hour. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Stay with us.

[E]

As President Trump continues implementing his ambitious agenda. Follow along with the MSNow newsletter.

[D]

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[F]

Your inbox with expert analysis on the.

[E]

Administration'S latest actions and how they're affecting the American people.

[D]

The American people are basically telling the president that they are not okay with any of this.

[E]

Sign up for the Project 47 newsletter at Ms. Now. Project 47, Let me be direct. We are in the midst of a rupture, not a transition. Over the past two decades, a series of crises in finance, health, energy and geopolitics have laid bare the risks of extreme global integration. But more recently, great powers have begun using economic integration as weapons, tariffs as leverage, financial infrastructure as coercion, supply chains as vulnerabilities to be exploited. You cannot live within the lie of mutual benefit through integration. When integration becomes the source of your subordination.

[D]

We'Re back with Tom Nichols and General Hertling. Tom Nichols, that's Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney. And you're talking about a sea change. A sea change isn't the right word. Just this absolute upside down scenario for the men and women of the military up and down the chain of command. It's a sea change for our relationship with our closest neighbors. I think it was 10 days ago that we were all together, the three of us talking about the operation in Venezuela and the casual threat that maybe Mexico would be the target of an operation as well. To hear Canada talking about totally recalibrating its relationship with the United States of America has real impacts on the price of things, the security of things. And again, there are other reports that they're preparing for military action with and against us.

[E]

They're our sister nation. We have almost no closer relationships in the world. And I want to be clear about something I said earlier. You know, I think of General Hertling and a small group of officers as honorable exceptions. I wasn't trying to rib Mark or anybody else. They have really made an effort to explain exactly what this means to the American people. And there are a lot of other former military leaders who have served side by side with NATO, with the Danes, with the Canadians, with others who, who could be making this case. And at the very least, explaining this to the public where it would carry a lot of weight, as it does coming from people like Mark and others. And I wish that there were more of them because it is almost, I think, in part, I think people think, you know, we're not at the level of crisis yet, but we are. I mean, we have the Canadians with NATO, Great Britain, the Danes, the French talking about us as if we are a putative enemy at this point, all because of these deranged plans from one man that no one seems to be able to say no to because he is surrounded by these soulless careerists who just want to stay in the White House and stay in his good graces. And I think people don't realize, I think the American people don't realize the level of danger they're in and the level of danger that their standard of living, their way of life is in if all of this comes apart. And I think that's what Prime Minister Carney was trying to say that, you know, globalization has given us this immense standard of living and the advances we live under. And one person in Washington is threatening to tear all that apart because he simply. Because, as Congressman Walton said, because he's a man, child because he can't bear hearing the word no.

[D]

General Hartling, General Kelly, General Milley, Secretary Mattis are three voices that I think people hunger to hear from. And in their own way, they did confirm the worst suspicions about how Trump would govern in a second term. And they were right. Calling him, quote, fascistic to the core. Jim Mulkelly, going farther, doing a recorded interview with the New York Times saying he met every technical definition of a dictator and going through that definition. But it is also true that this is the break glass moment. And I understand all the reasons. No, I understand why they don't want to use their voices. It's not one. It's a variety of different reasons. But does this feel to you like the break glass moment?

[C]

It's certainly getting close. And let me elaborate, too. Cause Tom and I are good friends. When we're not together on TV and we talk about this a lot offline. What I'd say is, I don't mean this to sound hyperbolic, but if you take a look at what is happening in the past, the past 10 months, there have been various dangers that have occurred that we've anticipated. The courts or the institutions or the law firms or the media standing up to and the military, I'll put that in that category, too. What we are now nearing, I think, and I'm loath to use this word, the big E word, but we're close to an existential crisis because we're talking about the existence of not only our major security alliance, and that is NATO, but also the crisis between the government, the institutions of the government, the military, the courts, and the people. You showed earlier in the program, Nicole, the polling numbers. The American people don't seem to want anything that we're pursuing right now as an administration. When you lose the connection between the government and the people, that's dangerous. That brings about the potential for an existential threat when you lose, as Congressman Moulton was saying before, the willingness of elected officials who represent the people to not stand up because that's what Congress is. Or when you lose the potential for an alliance that a sent, that senators signed and it's law in the United States, we're talking about the existence of a democratic nation. So, yeah, I'm concerned right now. I'm more concerned today than I have ever been before. And you know me to be an optimistic person. I'm starting to lose some of that optimism. Not only that, if I can say one more thing, as we find our way through this, when it's time to start making the corrections as a Nation in two years or four years, if someone's not writing a Plan 2029 right now to saying how we can fix all these damaged goods and rewrite the ship, we're in more trouble. So we need to be looking ahead way beyond what's happening now. But first we've got to address the issues that we're facing today. We're in dangerous times.

[D]

Let me just press you. I mean, are people doing that? Are former military people looking at how you depoliticize what has been done to the military?

[C]

General I don't know. Truthfully, I don't. If it was, it would be taking part in small groups right now. But I'm talking about the kinds of think tanks that pull really smart people together, not just military, but diplomats and information people and the media and the kinds of folk, the institutional people, like from the courts and from the media. That's where it's got to be a whole of government approach, a term we often use but don't understand. This has got to be a hey, how do we fix the things that in a very quick period of time, the last 10 months have been broken and that have endangered our democracy and our sovereign ideas and our values as well?

[D]

Tom Nichols and Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, thank you for very frank conversation today. I appreciate both of you. To be continued. When we come back, we'll go live in Minneapolis where at this hour protesters are gathering to demonstrate against ICE and the brutal tactics that led to the death of Renee Nicole Goode. Our friend and colleague Jacob Soboroff is there among the protesters. He'll join us in a minute. Also, we'll look at how the violence being perpetrated by ICE has spread to cities and towns all across our country. There's new reporting on that from our friend and colleague Antonia Hilton. She'll be here as well. Don't go anywhere. As we stand against heavily armed masked.

[E]

Federal troops invading an American city.

[D]

And using estoppel tactics against our fellow citizens.

[E]

If you believe you don't deserve to.

[C]

Be murdered for exercising your American right.

[E]

To protest and send a message to this president.

[D]

And as the mayor of that city.

[E]

Has said, I should get the out of Minneapolis.

[D]

Not one to shy away from speaking out and against the Trump administration. That was the one and only Bruce Springsteen over the weekend denouncing the deployment of ICE agents and officers in American cities, especially Minneapolis. ICE protests are continuing across Minneapolis and the state of Minnesota for the third week, with more taking place this hour. Residents are showing up to protest because their Daily lives have been completely upended with masked federal officers roaming the streets and continuing to carry out raids at businesses and people's homes. Businesses have been forced to close as we've covered today, private homes where one US Resident seen here, an elderly gentleman, was forcibly dragged from his home at gunpoint wearing little more than a pair of shorts, no shirt and a blanket over his shoulder. I want to bring into our coverage senior national and political reporter Jacob Soboroff on the ground for us in Minneapolis. And with me at the table, my colleague, the week primetime co anchor and correspondent Antonia Hilton. Jacob, tell me what you're saying, that.

[E]

Borders and prophets matter.

[I]

Nicole, first let me just say the video you just showed of all those protesters on Saturday, I'm back here now. This is called Government Plaza. I am in the center of downtown Minneapolis. It's 8 degrees right now. It hasn't stopped people since the killing of Renee Nicole Goode and even before that when the president of the United States just called the Somali population in this country garbage from being out on the streets of Minneapolis. Greg Bevino, the commander at large of the Border Patrol, the man who has become the face of this operation despite the fact that he's not the chief of the border Patrol, he's not even a high ranking official in the border of patrol. He's a sector level official who has become basically a caricature of this operation. Gave a press conference today where he said, and he admitted the opposition here in Minnesota is the strongest opposition that he has seen yet. He touted the numbers, 3,000 people taken since the beginning of this operation at the beginning of January. They say they've taken 10,000 since the beginning of the Trump administration. And that has given people a new resolve. They are emboldened. They are out here almost every single day. And so that's why I'm here. I am watching the same scenes play out that we saw in Los Angeles. The same scenes we saw play out in Chicago over the summer, in Charlotte, in the hallways of 26 Federal Plaza. Now they are playing out here in Minneapolis. Indiscriminate, widespread raids, masked, heavily armed federal agents taking largely nonviolent people off of the streets. It's not the worst of the worst. The leaders here will tell you that. And now we're watching the leaders of this city and this state receive subpoenas for what the administration says is obstructing federal law enforcement. Same playbook that we heard Tom Holman tell me in LA about Gavin Newsom and about Karen Bass and about JB Pritzker who said, come and get me now. They're coming to get the local officials here. And we are watching the response to that, Nicole, in real time.

[D]

Jacob, let me play you some local law enforcement perspective. This is Brooklyn Park, Minnesota Police Chief Mark Brulee on ice.

[E]

We as law enforcement community have been receiving endless complaints about civil rights violations in our streets from US Citizens. What we're hearing is they're being stopped in traffic stops or on the street with no cause and being forced to demand paperwork to determine if they are here legally. As this went on over the past two weeks, we started hearing from our police officers the same complaints as they fell victim to this while off duty. Every one of these individuals is a person of color who has had this happen to them.

[D]

Do I understand that correctly? Police, off duty police officers are also being asked to show their papers in Minnesota?

[I]

That's what they're saying. That's what that officer there was saying. And we have heard that played over and over here in the local media, Nicole. And it matches sort of the adversary relationship we have continued to hear from from local police here in Minneapolis and the mayor and the federal government. And they are contending the federal government is that this mayoral administration, that the government that the governor, local police officers, look at what Stephen Miller is saying on social media, are not participating in their enforcement efforts. And by the way, they are not compelled to. That is not what local law enforcement is meant to do in a city like this. And just like we saw in la, just like we saw in Chicago, they are being put in between protesters like this who don't want to see these armed mass federal agents on the street and those very agents that have come here. I want it, Nicole, if I could for a second. This is about the people as much as it is about the politicians. And I want to show you a little bit. I was talking to some of these people earlier. Let me see if I can grab them. Hi, I know, I was sorry to interrupt you because I know that both of you are listening to what's going on here. I was just saying to Nicole Wallace, we're live on Ms. Now. This is as much about the people that are out on the streets as it is about the politicians. I wonder, can you just tell me a little bit about who you are? What brings you out here in 8 degrees right now? What's your name?

[J]

My name is Lindsay.

[I]

Lindsay, what do you do?

[D]

I actually work in real estate.

[I]

In real estate. How about you? What's your name? What do you do?

[D]

My name is Jessica, I work at a packaging firm in Plymouth.

[I]

So how often are you doing this, coming out onto the streets to protest what you're seeing happening in Minneapolis?

[D]

As often as we can. We obviously need to take breaks for ourselves and our humanity and our brains, but we are out here as much as we can be.

[I]

What does it feel like to have these armed mass federal troops, to know now that there are subpoenas issued to the mayor of this city, to the governor of this state by the federal government, Donald Trump? They have long said they consider invoking the Insurrection Act. We know that there are literal troops, army troops, that are on standby to come here. How's it feel to be citizens of Minnesota right now today?

[J]

It's absolutely terrifying. I am obviously not the target that.

[D]

They'Re going after, but anytime I drive.

[J]

By an ICE agent, my whole body just freezes up. It's just terrifying to know what they're doing and, you know, having to explain this to your children, you know, who are worried about their friends.

[I]

I think that's important to emphasize, Nicole, is that it's not unusual to see these agents out on the streets here. Have you seen them out and about?

[D]

Oh, yeah. I drove past one the other day. They haven't come to my specific neighborhood or my work yet, but I'm terrified that they would.

[I]

And yet you're out here anyway, even though they're not coming to your neighborhood.

[D]

Absolutely. And I would hope that anybody else would be as well. If you're silent, you're not gonna make a difference.

[I]

I appreciate talking to both of you. Thank you so much. We'll be here. We're not going anywhere. I'll see you in a little bit. Okay? Thank you very much, Nicole. So everyday citizens, you know, it's not happening to them. They're saying it's not happening in their neighborhood, but they're finding their way out here on an 8 degree evening in downtown Minneapolis.

[D]

And their indictment of people's silence is giving me life. Thank you so much for bringing me that. I needed that. Jacob Sobroth. Thank you. We're going to bring Antonia into our coverage. On the other side of a quick break. She has exclusive reporting on the brutal tactics ICE is using nationwide. We're going to fit in a break. We'll be back with that on the other side.

[B]

Home to the Rachel Maddow Show, Morning Joe, the briefing with Jen Psaki and more voices you know and trust. Ms. Now is your source for for news, opinion and the world. Learn more at Ms. Now.

[D]

The protests against the Trump administration's immigration policies that we are seeing all across the country are fueled in large part by the fact that the US Border Patrol is taking extremely aggressive tactics typically used at the border into US Cities. So we're seeing more of them. We're increasingly seeing car chases, smashed windows, people being dragged from their vehicles, scenes like this incident in Houston that my colleague Antonia Hilton has brand new reporting on. An undocumented immigrant was driving with his 16 year old son, who is a US citizen. They were approached by masked men with guns and the man fled before they were chased down and detained. Here's how the scene played out. Take a look.

[H]

We didn't know what was happening. They were still chasing us. And that's when they started hitting our car, trying to flip us.

[D]

We are here with Antonia Hilton. Tell us the story. What happened next?

[J]

Nicole? This has been one of the strangest stories I've reported in my career. But at the same time, it's actually emblematic of something we're seeing more and more as Donald Trump executes essentially this unprecedented mass deportation campaign. Agents are trying to meet these quotas and go very aggressively after immigrants and communities that they typically, historically would not have prioritized in enforcement. This story in Houston happened back in October. Father and son go to get breakfast one morning on the way to taking his son to school, and unmarked cars drive up behind them, turn the lights on. They pull over, thinking it's a local police officer, maybe he didn't have his blinker on. And the family says that men jump out of the car, guns already drawn, masks up on their faces, no commands. They didn't so much as say, you are under arrest. According to the family, they start banging on their windows, trying to open their doors. So the son actually thinks, are we being carjacked? Like maybe these are kidnappers. There are no badges anywhere for them to see. So the father flees, as you see there. And then as they're driving in the video that we exclusively obtained from this family, you see the agents strike their car, ram their car at least four times. And this is just really the beginning of a very violent encounter that shows you the increasingly aggressive tactics that federal agents are using at this time. So there's this car chase. They then eventually tackle both the son and father down in a depot, where they stop just a little bit down the road and they detain both father and son, even though the son is a minor and is a U.S. citizen. And that's where things get very strange, Nicole, because while the son ends up released, the father Is taken to an immigration detention center. And the son realizes that he does not have his iPhone and his AirPod headphones and that actually he believes the agents have them. Tracks it over the course of a weekend while his father is detained and he finds that his iPhone has been sold by someone he does not know who and we do not know who yet. Sold by someone to a tech for cash, pawn shop, atm that just so happened to be about two and a half miles down the road from the detention center where they take his father. We have spent the last several weeks reaching out to DHS about this case to try to understand the use of their tactics, the reason why they rammed the cars, the reason why they even precipitated this stop in the first place. Because this man has been in the country illegally since the 90s. He has a 2015 nonviolent misdemeanor, but doesn't fit the profile of someone who would typically be pursued by a multi agency team on the ground in a city. Can't get answers to those questions. Asked them about the boy's missing cell phone, they did not respond to any of those questions, but they did tell us, Nicole, is that any allegations that the officers assaulted the father and son are false and they described this father as a criminal, illegal alien. I want you to take a look at another clip from our documentary, the Story that's premiering this evening because as you hear what DHS has said that they were not assaulted, I want you to take a look at what the son experienced. When was the first time that you tried to tell them I'm a citizen?

[H]

When I was on the ground and I was in the headlock and he told me you're done, you're done. I was like, I'm under it. He told me you were citizen. And he choked me more so I guess I couldn't speak.

[J]

What kinds of things did you hear them say to you and your father?

[H]

Bunch of racist stuff like they were calling us criminals that we didn't serve to live in the US border hopper. Illegal like son of an alien. All that stuff, a dumbass, all that stuff.

[J]

Shortly after what you see happen there where the 16 year old and his father are down on the ground. And while it's hard to see there in that bystander video that we obtained, he's held in a very tight chokehold which many of the officials, sources that we spoke to who've worked at dhs, ICE and Border Patrol say is explicitly banned. Something that agents are told they're not supposed to do. Especially with someone like a minor. He ends up having to go to the hospital, Texas Children's Hospital, with damage to his neck and spine. He's given morphine. We obtained 911 calls where nurses call the police themselves to say that they believe the 16 year old has been choked and beaten. And when we asked, we even sent photographs of Arnaldo's injuries to dhs. They did not respond to those. In addition to the inquiries about the broader treatment and tactics you've seen there, and the experts, the former agents that we've spoken to, tell us that they believe that this is becoming more common. Scenes like this are playing out every day in American cities now because there is this tactical shift going on at DHS Border Patrol, which once upon a time was seen by insiders at DHS as sort of the reckless little sibling of the agency. It's now been promoted by Donald Trump, by Border Saar Homan. They have taken over roughly half of the field offices run by ICE and brought the culture and the tactics that were once used in sort of cartel land into everyday cities and communities. And they say, you know, Americans will start to see more and more of this as that culture spreads further into the interior.

[D]

What happened to his dad?

[J]

His father was detained at a detention center in Conroe, Texas. And he alleges that agents told him if he didn't immediately sign his deportation papers, they would send his son to juvie. So he signed his deportation papers. He's now back in Mexico and he has no idea when he'll be able to see his children again. So in the film that we're sharing this evening, you'll see a scene in which the kids are able to stay connected with their father through FaceTime, through calls. But we really wanted to get into this one story to show you how one family can be shattered by something. You know, behind every number that you see, there is an entire family and community that ends up broken apart by a single violent incident like this.

[D]

It's unbelievable. It's incredible reporting. I know how long you've been working on this. Thank you so much for bringing it to us here.

[J]

Thank you, Nicole.

[D]

Really, really, really important that everyone sees the whole story tonight. Thank you. Quick break for us. We'll be right back. My guest on this week's episode of the Best People podcast is truly in the league of his own when it comes to understanding the stories I am most curious about and covering the halls of power within the media industry and lately the C suite capitulation, over and over and over. Again to Donald Trump. Oliver Darcy has made that his bread and butter beat for years. I rely on his newsletter to understand exactly what is going on everywhere from my own company to boardroom meetings to Candace Owens livestreams. You can watch our conversation out now on YouTube by scanning the QR code on your screen or listen to it wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to let me know what you think of it on Instagram or bluesky. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes. We are grateful.

[B]

Home to the Rachel Maddow Show, Morning Joe, the Briefing with Jen Psaki and more voices you know and trust. Ms. NOW is your source for news, opinion and the world. Our name is new, but you'll find the same commitment to justice, progress and the truth that you've relied on for decades. Decades. We'll continue to cover the day's news, ask the tough questions and explain how it impacts you. Ms. Now. Same mission, new name. Learn more at Ms. NOW.