“Getting their mojo back”

Summary

Podcast Summary: Deadline: White House – “Getting Their Mojo Back”
Release Date: August 13, 2025
Host: Nicolle Wallace, MSNBC

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Introduction

In the August 13, 2025 episode of Deadline: White House, hosted by Nicolle Wallace, the discussion centers on a significant resurgence of Democratic momentum in the United States political landscape. Drawing from Wallace’s extensive experience and featuring insights from key political figures and analysts, the episode delves into the strategic battles over redistricting, the Democratic Party’s evolving tactics, and the ongoing challenges posed by former President Donald Trump’s disinformation campaigns.

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The Redistricting Battle: Texas as the Epicenter

The episode kicks off with Nicolle Wallace highlighting the critical role of grassroots enthusiasm in political success. She emphasizes that without genuine grassroots support, political parties are vulnerable in electoral contests. Currently, Democrats are regaining their "mojo" thanks to intense battles over redistricting, a process that shapes congressional districts and can significantly influence election outcomes.

Governor Greg Abbott of Texas is at the forefront of this struggle. He is actively pushing for a special legislative session aimed at redrawing Texas’s congressional districts to favor Republicans, following pressure from former President Donald Trump. Despite Democratic lawmakers fleeing the state to deny Republicans a quorum, Abbott asserts, “once the legislature special session ends Friday, he plans to immediately begin a new one until he can push through his new, even more Republican-friendly map” (01:17).

Representative James Talarico, a Democrat currently outside Texas, appeared on Fox News discussing gerrymandering. The exchange underscored the contentious nature of redistricting:

• James Talarico [02:36]: “In my view, what has happened here is...”
• Gavin Newsom [03:31]: “We have never gerrymandered in the middle of the decade at the request of the president of the United States, nor would we.”

These interactions illustrate the deep divisions and the high stakes involved in the redistricting battles.

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Democratic Strategy: Fighting Fire with Fire

Democrats are not standing idly by as Republicans attempt to reshape the political map. California Governor Gavin Newsom has been actively countering Abbott’s efforts by organizing the state’s redistricting process to favor Democrats. In a notably aggressive online stance, Newsom tweeted:

“donald Taco Trump missed the deadline! California will now draw new, more beautiful maps. They will be historic as they will end the Trump presidency. Dems take back the House.” (05:32)

Congressman Robert Garcia of California, ranking member of the Oversight Committee, elaborates on this strategy:

“People are energized. If Texas is going to punch, California is going to punch back harder. We support the governor's effort. We just have to match that level of energy in our own different ways.” (06:39)

Garcia emphasizes that the Democrats' approach has shifted from seeking respectability to adopting a more aggressive posture to secure electoral victories. He asserts:

“We have to lean in hard. Never forget the kitchen table issues that people care about. It has to be an all of the above strategy.” (30:34)

Pollster Cornell Belcher, president of Brilliant Corners Research, shares his enthusiasm for the renewed focus on gerrymandering, noting that it has brought a typically niche topic to the forefront of national political discourse:

“It's a drip, drip, drip [...] that is wearing thin the American people and the public.” (25:22)

Belcher stresses the importance of educating voters on how gerrymandering impacts their representation and the broader democratic process.

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Trump's Disinformation Campaign: Undermining Democratic Gains

Amidst these strategic battles, Donald Trump’s attempts to sow disinformation continue to pose significant challenges for Democrats. The episode features an in-depth discussion with New York Times investigative reporter Mike Schmidt and MSNBC legal analyst Andrew Weissman about Trump’s recent moves to cast doubt on the integrity of the 2016 election and various intelligence assessments.

Mike Schmidt highlights the discrepancy between public statements made by Trump’s allies and the actual findings of intelligence reports:

“Tulsi Gabbard making claims of treasonous criminality by Obama and his intelligence community officials, but not doing that based on anything that really moves the ball in terms of proving that conspiracy.” (37:40)

Andrew Weissman echoes the difficulty in prosecuting such high-profile cases, pointing out the high bar required for criminal charges and the historical ineffectiveness of previous efforts to indict Trump-related figures.

James Talarico adds to the discussion by framing Trump’s actions as part of a broader disinformation campaign aimed at destabilizing trust in democratic institutions:

“Donald Trump, remember, is not new to this. [...] and this cavalier attitude about things that are there to make Americans safe.” (43:05)

The conversation underscores the persistent threat of disinformation and the necessity for Democrats to remain vigilant and proactive in countering false narratives.

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The Path Forward: Unity and Aggression

Rob Lowe’s brief advertisement segments are interspersed throughout the episode, but the core discussions remain focused on the Democratic Party's strategic responses to current political challenges.

Robert Garcia and Cornell Belcher advocate for a united, aggressive Democratic front to effectively combat Republican strategies and Trump's ongoing influence:

“We have to be in every space talking about every single issue and pushing back every single time.” (30:34)

Garcia further emphasizes:

“We have to move forward and focus on all of it.” (31:36)

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Conclusion

The episode of Deadline: White House titled “Getting Their Mojo Back” provides a comprehensive analysis of the current political battleground, highlighting the Democratic Party’s strategic adaptations in response to Republican redistricting efforts and the enduring challenges posed by Donald Trump’s disinformation campaigns. Nicolle Wallace, along with her panel of experts, paints a picture of a party that is revitalizing its strategies, fostering voter engagement, and preparing to counteract adversarial tactics with vigor and unity.

The discussions underscore the critical importance of grassroots enthusiasm, strategic aggression in policy battles, and the relentless pursuit of democratic integrity in the face of ongoing political maneuvering.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Gavin Newsom [03:31]: “We have never gerrymandered in the middle of the decade at the request of the president of the United States, nor would we.”

• Robert Garcia [06:39]: “People are energized. If Texas is going to punch, California is going to punch back harder.”

• Cornell Belcher [12:28]: “What we have to do is basic one on one, right? Show Americans that they have skin in this game.”

• Robert Garcia [25:22]: “This is not just a silver bullet, Nicole. It’s a drip, drip, drip that is wearing thin the American people.”

• James Talarico [43:05]: “This cavalier attitude about things that are there to make Americans safe.”

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For those interested in political analysis and the shifting dynamics within U.S. politics, this episode offers insightful perspectives and comprehensive coverage of pivotal issues shaping the current electoral landscape.

Transcript

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[Nicole Wallace]

Hi there everyone. It's four o' clock in the East. For better or for worse, it's not the sort of thing you can fake. There's no substitute, no alternative, no replacement. But without it, political parties of any and all stripes have learned again and again, perhaps some more recently than others, that without genuine grassroots enthusiasm, authentic excitement among the vast majority of your voters electorally, you are toast. So you can understand why Democrats are starting to feel like they've got their mojo back today, the wind back in their sails thanks to a rather unexpected issue, what NBC News calls the quote, burning hot center of Democratic politics right now, the battle over redistricting. It started in the state of Texas, where today Texas Governor Greg Abbott is is once again threatening the Democratic lawmakers who fled that state in order to deny Republicans a quorum as they endeavor to rip up Texas's congressional districts mid decade. Abbott says once the legislature special session ends Friday, he plans to immediately begin a new one until he can push through his new, even more Republican friendly map. A special request from Donald Trump. One of those Democrats outside of Texas state lines right now is Representative James Talarico. Fox News invited him on their air yesterday to talk gerrymandering and this is how it went. You gave the ball game analogy.

[James Talarico]

In my view, what has happened here is you've done something in certain states and you don't like it when it's.

[Gavin Newsom]

Done in Republican states.

[James Talarico]

And now you're saying you've done the.

[Nicole Wallace]

Same thing as us, you've done the.

[Gavin Newsom]

Same thing as us.

[James Talarico]

And we are going to, by the.

[Nicole Wallace]

Way, if you do it, we're going to ratchet it up in the even.

[Gavin Newsom]

More in the words we have in Newsom. We, we. My party has never gerrymandered in the middle of the decade at the request of the president of the United States, nor would we. The only way this is going to happen in blue states is if Texas executes this power grab. You mentioned Massachusetts. Do you know the party of the governor that signed that map into law? He was a Republican. It was a Republican governor that signed that map into law. So I just want to be, I want to be clear with our facts. And I don't want to muddy the waters. All of us, whether we're Democrats, Independents or Republicans, we should to politicians who don't want to face accountability at the ballot box. That's exactly what's happening here. And I asked you, if Republican policies are popular, why do they need to redraw these maps? Why can't they just run on their policies?

[James Talarico]

I'm getting wrapped on time. I'm enjoying this conversation. I want to let it go on.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, Cain looks like he needs a lifeline. But it isn't just Texas Democrats who are now vowing to fight fire with fire in what Democrats see as what it is, a Republican power grab. But their party allies, other Democrats, have entered the fray as well. California's Governor Gavin Newsom, for instance, has spent the better part of the week masterfully trolling Donald Trump online. It culminated in an all caps threat written in very Trumpian style to make sure he understood it, I guess, quote, donald Taco Trump, as many call him, quote, missed the deadline, exclamation point. California will now draw new, more beautiful maps. They will be historic as they will end the Trump presidency. Dems take back the House. Big press conference this week with powerful Dems. And Gavin Newsom, your favorite governor, that will be devastating for maga. Thank you for your attention to this matter. Now, whatever happens in California or Texas or Illinois or anywhere else, it's clear Democrats have some momentum back. They're energized not just by the issues, but by their own voters who are all too eager to see them fight. And it's where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. Managing editor of the Bulwark, MSNBC contributor Sam Stein's here. Also joining us, pollster and president of Brilliant Corners Research, MSNBC political analyst Cornell Belcher is here. And we start with Democratic Congressman Robert Garcia of California, ranking member of the Oversight Committee. Congressman, I like the translation feature and I feel like, among other things, what Gavin Newsom has cracked the code on is that translation into Donald Trump's social media posting language, quite an epic troll of him. But on the substance of this, where do you see this fight?

[Robert Garcia]

Well, I think first, I think you're absolutely right. I mean, people are energized. And it's if Texas is going to punch, California is going to punch back harder. And people are right now in a fighting mood. You, this has united the party. We are ready to push back. And this is, this is the way Donald Trump have made it clear that how he wants to rig the 2026 election. A lot of us have been kind of contemplating how he's going to try to rig the 2028 election. No, it's the 2026 election is how he's going to plan on doing it. And so we support the governor's effort. He is punching back just as he should be. We are all behind this effort. And what we're going to do in California is not just match Texas seat to seat. We're going to ensure that all of our members that are in tougher seats are also in bluer seats. And so we're going to build a firewall in our state. And we, we're in this fight because Donald Trump wants to be in it. And the only thing that Donald Trump understands is brute force. We've got to take him for his word that he's going to try to do this across the country. And Democrats have got to go state to state and do the same thing.

[Nicole Wallace]

Let me ask you this. I mean, mostly for better, but I guess in some instances for worse. The Democratic Party is not the Republican Party. The Republican Party doesn't ask why. The Republican Party doesn't say, oh, I've never been for this before. The Republican Party does what Donald Trump wants it to do. The Democratic Party isn't like that. Do you have unity among elected Democrats? And have you seen data that suggests this is what the majority of your voters want?

[Robert Garcia]

Welcome to the new Democratic Party. I mean, the reality is that we can no longer, we can no longer play the respectability game. We can no longer be always try to be the good guys. We can no longer always try to do the right thing at the right moment and pull test everything that we do. We have tried to do the right thing. We've supported independent commissions. We've always followed the letter of the law, which we should always try to do. We have tried to always be that party that brings people in and that does it in a way that is respect and commands, I think a large coalition. We've been losing elections. We lost a presidential election. We don't have control of the Congress. It is time for us to dig in deep and to match whatever the Republicans throw on us and then some. And it doesn't mean we got to lose our values. Our values are still about inclusion, supporting those that need help the most, bringing folks in, growing the country, supporting working class folks. That is still who we are. But the way we get to those majorities, the way we win elections has to change. And I've not heard one Democrat or voter on the ground ever tell me once, hey, can you please dial it.

[Cornell Belcher]

Back a little bit?

[Robert Garcia]

Or hey, can you being a little bit too aggressive? I am glad now that the party is finally in an aggressive posture and we are not going to let the foot off the gas.

[Nicole Wallace]

What is the process like? I mean, because of all the things you just nodded to, the norms and respect for institutions in some blue states, there are steps that Democrats have to take that someone like Governor Abbott doesn't have to take in Texas. Can you just take me through what happens now in California?

[Robert Garcia]

Absolutely. So in California, the process is a little bit more complicated, but we're going to get it done. I mean, we're essentially the legislature right now is, is developing these maps, obviously with, with, with Congress and the governor. The governor's the driver's seat. These maps will go in front of the legislature. The legislature will vote to put the maps in front of voters. That election is going to happen in November, likely. And so the whole process of actually getting on the ballot will happen in the next two weeks. Voters will then vote on the new map in November. And then that map will be the map that folks run for in these new seats in 2026. Now, the process in other states like New York or Illinois, they're all a little bit different. But I've been encouraging governors, legislators across the country. If you are in a blue state or if we have some control over the redistricting process, the time to act is now. Do not wait for the Republicans to start rolling out their next list of states. The planning has to start immediately. If California can do it and we're going to take it to the ballot, it's going to be very expensive and very difficult to do, but we are going to get it. Every other state that has the ability to do so needs to do the same thing immediately.

[Nicole Wallace]

Let me read you one more tweet from Governor Newsom and then I want to bring my other panelists into this conversation. He added this quote when Speaker Little Man Johnson is standing in the unemployment line. He can thank Donald Taco J. Trump. Trump missed a simple deadline, something he has often done with his many failed businesses. Now California will fire him with new, more beautif maps. Highly anticipated historic press conference. And this is with your, with your favorite governor. Is this a tone that you would like to see all your fellow Democrats adopt?

[Robert Garcia]

Look, yes. I mean, look, I think what the governor is doing here is being more aggressive as far as people's tones or how they, how they, you know, how they take on Republicans in their state or their governors or the president is up to them. But the governor is doing exactly what we need to do and a true model in the way to take on Donald Trump. Donald Trump only understands brute force. He only understands someone actually standing up to him and pushing back aggressively. And I think the governor has captured the moment and he's leading the country in putting these maps in front of voters. And as for the rest of the party and members of Congress and leadership and all of us that are involved, we just have to match that level of energy in our own different ways. You've had incredible guests and conversations, Nicole. You just, obviously in Texas and across the country, people are pushing back and these folks need to continue to do so, not just against Toronto Trump, but Republicans in their own states.

[Nicole Wallace]

Let me bring my other guests into this conversation. Cornell, we have bemoaned, I think, for the better part of 6 months how dispirited the base of the Democratic Party. Not just the base, but the entire pro democracy coalition. I'm not sure on November 6th, they thought this would be the fight. Maybe they should have. I think folks like Marc Elias would say they should have, that this is where this was heading. But, but a fight is what they have been hungering for. And I'm sure all of us anecdotally encounter this feeling as well. What are your thoughts about the aggressive tone and tenor and this fight in particular?

[Cornell Belcher]

Well, I think, look, I think it's the congressman's right. And for too long, Democrats have try to play fair and play by the rules and we're going to take the upper road. While it's clear that Republicans are just out to hold and grab and power. And look, so at some point, I'm actually excited about this because, because you have a nerdy topic like gerrymandering is now front and center of sort of the political conversation.

[Robert Garcia]

Right.

[Cornell Belcher]

And, and Americans are beginning to sort of say, oh, well, what is gerrymandering? And all of a sudden people are, are googling Gerrymandering. And, but we, but Nicole, what we have to do is basic one on one, right? Show Americans that they have skin in this game. Now this is simply not some part Democrat versus Republican so they can just throw their hands up and go, always politics as usual. No, we have to show them that they have some skin in the game, right? Ask them why is it that the vast majority of Americans want common sense gun reform, but we never get common sense gun reform. How is it that the vast majority of Americans don't in fact want more tax cuts for wealthy people and corporations, but time and time again we get more tax cuts and for wealthy people and corporations and none of the things that the vast majority of Americans want to do actually happens. It's because of gerrymandering. Because, Nicole, that 90 some percent, over 90% of incumbents don't lose elections, they get reelected. It's not a free market system. And we everywhere in this country, we believe in free markets, free markets, especially our Republican friends. Free markets, free markets. Everyone except for in politics where they don't want a free market. And the way that most of these districts are drawn, you're not getting competition. And so when you look at why so much of politics is not working for the American people, American people have to understand that this is why the things that you want done oftentimes don't get done. Because it is a rigged system where incumbents are drawing lines that protect incumbency. Look, I do a lot of congressional races and I do independent expenses for congressional races. And you notice, Nicole, most of these elections control the House is determined by less than 40 congressional districts across the country. That's insane. We've got to have more competition if we want the voice of the people to be a part of this process. So I'm glad this is becoming a conversation and I'm very happy that Democrats are fighting this way.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, and Sam Stein, you look at the surging number of people registering as independents, the vast majority of states leave them out of primaries, right? A lot of places don't let you participate. So there is this hunger to change politics. And I think that this is, this is a democracy argument, but it is tangible. And I wonder what you think of how. Actually, let me show you how Governor Pritzker is talking about it in Illinois. That's where a lot of Texas Democrats have gone to avoid being in Texas to deprive Republicans of a quorum.

[Sam Stein]

You talked about how rare it is to do what he's doing. Yes, it is. What's even Rarer is to do it at the behest of the president, President of the United States, who's clearly attempting to and says that he deserves to have five more seats. He's wrong. And he's attempting to change the game because again, he passed this big, ugly bill. It's hyper unpopular in Texas, among people in Texas and across the country. And he knows he's gonna lose the Congress in 2026. That's why he's going to his allies and hoping that they can save him. And we've all got to stand up against this. It's cheating. Donald Trump is a cheater. He cheats on his wives, he cheats at golf, and now he's trying to cheat the American people out of their votes.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, Sam, one of my favorite interviews that I've done in the last nine years was with the author. I think it's Rick Riley, who wrote a book about Donald Trump cheating on golf. I mean, Donald Trump does cheat on golf. Donald Trump was willing to have his vice president hung to cheat in the 2020 election. This message about cheating, super easy to understand and bolstered by lots of facts when it comes to Donald Trump.

[Unknown Guest]

I would second Rick Riley's book on Trump and golf. It's a must read. The guy does cheat. He was caught red handed on video the other day, but that's neither here nor there. I get what you're saying.

[Nicole Wallace]

He still cheats at golf. That's amazing.

[Unknown Guest]

There's video from Turnberry. Yeah.

[Nicole Wallace]

What a loser. Really? Why isn't he better than golf? Why isn't he better? Because this is not like running the country. Why isn't he better at it? I mean, I know golf's hard, but.

[Unknown Guest]

Well, since you invited the question, he's actually okay at golf. He just likes to cheat. I mean, if you look at his swing and if you look at the results, he's actually fairly good at it. But he just cheats all the time at it. And there's actually video evidence of it from his recent trip to Turnberry where the caddy actually does drop the ball for his. For his benefit.

[Nicole Wallace]

I'm going to find it and play it.

[Unknown Guest]

All right, fine. Fair enough. I didn't prepare for this conversation. Back to the other conversation. Look, I think there's. There is obvious appetite among Democrats. The governors are channeling it for people to just stand up and say, enough, we're gonna fight as they bar the cliche fire with fire. And they're gonna do it to the best they can. Of course, as the Congressman said there are certain restrictions in different states that might make it so that Republicans ultimately do end up better off in this redistricting process. But there is also a tension here that we're talking about that we get at, which is if we do, and I think we across the board believe that elections shouldn't be racist to the bottom, that there should be more general elections, that the primary election shouldn't be the end all be all for every single house, minus a couple dozen here or there. They want independents to be participating in this process. You want all those reforms. This is not necessarily the way to go about doing it. And Democrats are now in this place where they have to argue, and it's not the easiest argument, but they do have to argue that, hey, we have an immediate crisis at hand. We cannot let Donald Trump and Greg Abbott get away with redistricting. We have to stop this at its moment or else we can't go back. But once we do get power, we can pass these types of reforms that can institutionally make things better. I don't know if that's a saleable argument, a salient argument for Americans, but that is the argument that Democrats have been reduced or forced, I should say, to make.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, I think you just answered your own question, though. I mean, they have to make it because they're dealing with someone that's, that's literally no one who cheats in front of other people at golf has ever been trusted with the presidency. I mean, to be so flagrantly devoid of morals or integrity scrambles the circuits. We got detoured a little bit. Congressman, can I ask you to stick around through the break longer than you planned? I want to give you the last word, but I have to sneak in a quick break. When we all come back, we'll hear from the Democratic legislators who started it all this time, the Texas lawmakers who left their home state to protest the Republican power grab about what's next for them and what options remain. Also ahead, we'll show you how the Trump administration's distraction game is still very much in overdrive. And in some circles, I guess you can say it's working for now, however hypothetical and lacking of substance and facts it may be. That's thanks to his most senior intelligence officials working overtime to avoid ever saying the words Jeffrey Epstein. And later in the show, Donald Trump's broken promises to the American people of making the country great again and lowering the price of eggs. Where and who he is failing the most with. We'll show that to you. And much more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

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[Gavin Newsom]

And when we first started this journey, we talked about the fact that eventually they still might pass these maps, but we're going to do everything we can to 1. Wake up America to try to reignite the fire that is the American people, for us to fight again for what we believe in and what we want. I am so happy to be here today because in the past last week we have heard from California, we have heard from New York, we have heard from Illinois that people are ready to stand up, people are ready to fight back.

[Nicole Wallace]

So that's the minority leader of the Texas State House, Gene Woo, a little over an hour ago speaking at a press conference. The latest reporting from NBC News this afternoon on what is next for him and his colleagues, the other Democratic Texas lawmakers and when they might return home to Texas is the this quote, Texas Democrats met late into the night Tuesday and then again Wednesday, including breaking into smaller groups to discuss their next steps and what their ultimate exit strategy looked like after spending the last 10 days out of the state. That's according to four sources close to the discussions. But the sources said the lawmakers did not yet have full consensus on an exit plan Quote, it's hard to get folks on the same page, said one of the sources who was granted, who spoke anonymously to speak candidly about internal party strategy. They're beginning to describe their ability to block Republicans from passing their new map that could net the party as many as five seats in the US House during the first special session as proof of victory. We're back with Sam Cornell and Congressman Garcia. Congressman Garcia, how would you define victory?

[Robert Garcia]

Well, look, I think already what Texas Democrats have done absolutely has been a shot in the arm for Democrats across the country. And so there is already heroism and victory that's happened there. Look, they don't have the majority. You know, Governor Abbott, of course, is going to do everything he can to get those maps through the legislature. But their actions have not only slowed the process down, hopefully made an impact on their overreach in Texas, but certainly has galvanized the population of Texas, but also, as importantly, fired up people across the country. What happened in California is directly in response to what's happening in Texas. What's happening in New York is a direct response to the heroism of what's happening in Texas. And so I think they are all heroes, should be commended and are truly leading the way as us here in our home state take our next steps, which we're going to hear about in the next few days. I think very clearly from the governor.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, Cornell, this is where I always wonder if at any point Democrats will fight political messaging the way Republicans have. I mean, the smash mouth response to Abbott is really, really the first special session after the tragedy of the floods. And this is what you did over and over and over and over and over again for a gosh darn cheater. Okay. I mean, that seems like a devastating political figure nationally, a devastating brand for MAGA and the Republican Party. Is that on the radar or in the discussion?

[Cornell Belcher]

You know, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a good question. And, but what I will say is, look, I had the opportunity to speak to one representative, Lulu Flores, who was, who was, you know, representative from Texas. And they are determined and they are determined to fight this as long as they can. And they're missing their families and their homes. But I think there's a bigger, there's a bigger picture here and the things that are most, that are more fundamentally important to our, to our democracy. And look, I think history will show that these Texas representatives were patriots, that they're, that they, that they fought for this country. And to the minority leader's Point, they, they have succeeded in bringing national attention to this. And I think while they in fact understand they may lose this, this battle, I think they're going to win the war. I think in the long term, the way we're galvanizing the public's attention to this and the problems that it is, I think in the long term, I think democracy is going to win, win this war. And Americans, to your point, what's happening now is patently absurd. And it's kind of hard for Republicans to messages, as you saw, Will on his own show, had to cut it short because quite frankly, they don't have a big pushback. Part of our challenge, and you see some of this fighting within the party right now is some progressives going, this is a distraction. Oh, you know, the National Guard and D.C. are a distraction. Let's just talk about the economy and pocketbook issues. And part of the problem, actually part of the brilliance of what Republicans are doing is flooding the box. They're giving us so much crazy stuff every day to talk about that it's hard to focus on one thing now. Is this a silver bullet, Nicole? I'm not sure this is a silver bullet, but I think it's a drip, drip, drip, drip, drip that's happening with this outrageous things that are happening in our country that's wearing thin the American people and the public. And I think you see some of that in Trump and Trump's polling numbers right now.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, I mean, Sam, what they're missing this time around, and I don't even know how we count what this is like. Deflection and distraction. 746 is the. But he's good for XYZ, right? Like the first four years, there was an all out assault on the rule of law. There was the not so perfect call. There was, you know, taking congressionally approved money for our ally in Ukraine and, and trying to extort Zelensky. I mean, there's all that. I mean, we'd be here for the next seven hours if we ticked through it. But there were enough voters that said, but I feel better about the economy in his hands. That's gone. Right? 33% of Americans approve of Trump on the economy right now. 80% of Americans are concerned about the price of groceries. 81% of all Americans, according to the UMass poll, think that Donald Trump is hiding something in the Epstein files. 71% of all Americans think Pam Bondi is hiding something in the Epstein files. 36% of Americans like what he's doing on immigration and immigration as an issue is more popular than it's been in a generation, with 79% of all Americans saying immigration. I like it. So at a substantive level, I mean, I take Cornell's point about there being too much, but it all sucks. And so I wonder what you make of the opportunities politically for Democrats.

[Unknown Guest]

Well, I think you hit the nail on the head in that the real power for Trump's first term was that he could. Look, he could point to the economy, he could point to the stock market, he can point to public receptions of both and say, look, I'm good for your 401, I'm good for jobs. I'm good for the economy. He didn't want to talk about 2020, mind you, because even though that was part of his presidency, he pretended his presidency ended at 2019, but he was able to point to that and this go around. That is absolutely not the case. Perceptions of the economy are not good. Perceptions about inflation are not good. The numbers are middling at best. And so he does have real vulnerabilities there. Which raises the question, and this is such a Democratic question, do you focus squarely on that and make the messaging around economic matters, or do you fight a host of different battles as they come before you? And I just don't see how at this juncture, the party can't fight all the battles at once, or at least try to. Right? I mean, what are you supposed to do? Are you supposed to cede immigration to the president again? Didn't we just witness what happened in 2024 where Democrats disengaged from that topic and allowed Trump to run just freely on it? It was a disaster for them. I think the lesson really is that you have to fight all the battles as best as you can, all the time. And one of the things that we've noticed when we've been writing about this to Bulwark is that Democrats are finally getting that. They get that you have to be in the conversation. They get that you have to be on different mediums on different channels. I think the fact that James Tellari was on Fox arguing about redistricting is a real tell. Right. I think the fact that Gavin Newsom is writing in Trump's voice and also running his own podcast is a real tell. They recognize that this is not. It's not about picking your battles, it's about fighting them when they are in front of you.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, fighting them and winning them. And I wonder, Congressman, I'll give you the last word, but your thoughts on.

[Robert Garcia]

All of this, I think that's Absolutely right. I think we have to be in every space talking about every single issue and pushing back every single time. I think early on there was discussion, well, we should be focused on health care. I heard from other Democrats, oh, you know, the message has got to be just focus on the tax cuts, just focus on health care. The Epstein thing is a distraction. This redistricting is a distraction. And I couldn't disagree with that more. I think that the American public understands that there are a lot of issues on the table. And when something can break through, whether it's his betrayal and Jeffrey Epstein to his base in the public, whether it's what's happening through his cheating and trying to create essentially his own election wins through redistricting, we have got to lean in hard. Never forget the kitchen table issues that people care about. That it has to be an all of the above strategy. And I'm glad that we've moved beyond this idea that we can only focus on one or two things that's got to end. We've got to move forward and focus on all of it.

[Nicole Wallace]

Okay, let me see if I can bring back the. Do we have the cheating? Did we find that? We're going to look for the cheating. We'll try to, we'll try to live this multitasking moment as well. We're going to find it. I'm on for another hour and a half. Sam Stein, Cornell Belcher, Congressman Robert Garcia, thank you all for being so real with us, with me. I appreciate all of you. Up next for us, Donald Trump today. Got a question at a press avail on Russian hacking, but not the one we think he was probably hoping to get. We'll explain next.

[Rob Lowe]

Hey, everybody, it's Rob Lowe here. If you haven't heard, I have a podcast that's called Literally with Rob Lowe. And basically it's conversations I've had that really make you feel like you're pulling up a chair at an intimate dinner between myself and people that I admire like Aaron Sorkin or Tiffany Haddish, Demi Moore, Chris Pratt, Michael J. Fox. There are new episodes out every Thursday, so subscribe, please and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Nicole Wallace]

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[Robert Garcia]

This is another nail in the coffin for the intelligence community who sold out their.

[Nicole Wallace]

Expertise for political expediency.

[James Talarico]

And we see it across so many issues.

[Unknown Guest]

The experts are willing to sell out.

[Robert Garcia]

Everything they've worked for and built trust.

[James Talarico]

In just to help Democrats win elections.

[Nicole Wallace]

They were all over Trump every single.

[Cornell Belcher]

Day, the incoming trying to delegitimize him.

[Nicole Wallace]

In every possible way. But this is these are the seeds.

[Cornell Belcher]

Of the whole Russia mess, all of it. And you can tell in my opinion, that he's guilty.

[Nicole Wallace]

This is just a little bit of what it looks like on the other side of the information spectrum when folks are desperate to talk about just about anything other than Donald Trump's plunging approval rating over his handling of the economy and immigration and especially Jeffrey Epstein. And that was just a snippet from Newsmax, a network more than happy and willing to carry Donald Trump's water, finding new ways to avoid addressing Donald Trump's Epstein problem, which matters a lot to their viewers. By continuing the absurd and unfounded claims made by Donald Trump's new Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, claims that go something like that former President Barack Obama and members of his intelligence team committed acts of what they call treason regarding the handling of intelligence about Russia trying to meddle in the 2016 election. Joining our conversation is New York Times investigative reporter MSNBC national security reporter Mike Schmidt and former top official at the Department of Justice, MSNBC legal analyst Andrew Weissman. Mike, this is the topic of the Daily Today on the New York Times and I wonder if you can take us through how they are navigating the fact that Marco Rubio, who has at least two or three jobs in the Trump Cabinet, is the author of the most damning report on Trump's ties to Russia.

[Mike Schmidt]

Well, they don't really obviously talk about that that you're talking about the Senate Intelligence Committee report that was released in final weeks before the 2020 election and above the reports about Trump's ties to Russia. It is, it is one of the, the harshest by far. It includes a lot, a lot of things that go far beyond what the Mueller report said. And it really not only backs up what the intelligence community did under the Obama administration, but it shows the larger connections between Trump's orbit and, and Russia and, and dating back, not just from the 2016 election. You know, in looking at what the Trump administration has done in the past few weeks, the most significant thing that I saw was this gap. And there's a massive gap between what these intelligence officials claim is in these documents that they are releasing publicly and what they actually say. And what happens is, is whether it's Tulsi Gabbard or CIA Director Radcliffe or Cash Patel, they go out and they make these massive claims that they say truly unlock the Russia conspiracy. And, you know, they're hoping, apparently, at least it looks like that, that their supporters aren't going to go and read the actual materials that they're putting out. But when you read them and study them and look at them, they're not what they claim to be. But, but at the same time, they're making massive claims, you know, Tulsi Gabbard making claims of treasonous criminality by Obama and his intelligence community officials, but not doing that based on anything that really moves the ball in terms of proving that conspiracy.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, and with Ratcliffe, he orders the CIA to examine the assessment. The CIA examines the 2016 assessment, confirms the underlying intelligence, has a few notes about tradecraft, and Ratcliffe goes out and lies about what his own workforce found. What is the Gabbard example look like? Is a similar playbook.

[Mike Schmidt]

The Gabbard example is similar. She puts out a report that had been completed by House Republicans during Trump's first term that came to a different conclusion about whether that assessment was accurate or not. And she puts it out and claims that it shows a treasonous conspiracy by Obama and setting up these referrals to the Justice Department and the Justice Department, you know, going ahead to take, you know, some sort of investigative moves to more move towards a criminal investigation. And the thing that, that we noticed when we looked at this is that there's a level of sophistication to what the Trump officials are doing that is different than Trump's first term. If you think about retribution and weaponization of the. In Trump's first term, it was largely Trump jumping up and down publicly and privately trying to get the Justice Department to investigate his enemies. A lot of times they were investigated. They never move forward with prosecutions. He was very frustrated about that. In this second term, no one really needs to be told what Trump wants. It is pretty clear what Trump wants. And the officials that he has working for him are of the same mind. They, they, they all see the world the same way. And what them doing is moving the ball around the court and teeing each other up differently. You know, to, to get them to some sort of criminal investigation. You have the intelligence community taking the fruits of what it does or whatever classified stuff that it has, declassifying it, sending referrals to the Justice Department and putting the department in a place to go forward and say, okay, we are looking at this and using the specter of criminality to, to examine Trump's foes, the original foes like Obama, Brennan and Comey.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, Andrew Weissman, I don't know what moves the men in the manosphere, but it looks so freaking lame and weak to be so obsessed with Obama. I mean, what is this really about in your view?

[James Talarico]

Well, I think this is an enormous amount of disinformation. I mean, it is, and that is a polite term for a bunch of lies. I want to make it clear what the two stories are because they're completely inconsistent that the administration is coming up with. The first is that Obama changed deliberately the intelligence because Russia did not in fact interfere in the 2016 election. That's the claim. And what they use for that is statements that the intelligence community found that although Russia actually had a huge troll farm trying to win the election for Donald Trump and against Hillary Clinton, although they hacked into the DNC and released damaging emails at opportune times for the Trump campaign and against Hillary Clinton. They said the intelligence was that the Russians, although they tried to get into actual election voting machines, did not do that. And Tulsi Gabbard has taken that last statement out of context to say, see, they knew that Russia didn't meddle. That is just false and misleading. That's step one. The second and inconsistent position is that they say that the Russians did meddle, but all they wanted to do is just interfere in general with, and sort of dissent in general and distrust, but not for or against any particular candidate, that is also false. And you can read in black and white, whether it's in the Mueller indictments, whether it's in the Senate intel report that they are explicit in black and white. It's not something that is subject to sort of opinions. It is absolutely one sided on this. And so this is just really a disinformation campaign for its base.

[Nicole Wallace]

John Durham, I think, reaches the same conclusion. I want to show both of you what Donald Trump had to say about Russian hacking today. I have to sneak in a quick break first. We'll all be right back. On the other side.

[Gavin Newsom]

There'S a new reporting that the Russians have hacked into some computer systems that manage US Federal court documents. I wonder if you've seen this reporting and if you plan to bring it.

[James Talarico]

Up with Putin when you see him.

[Gavin Newsom]

Later in the week.

[Nicole Wallace]

I guess I could. Are you surprised? You know, he's surprised.

[Robert Garcia]

They hack in.

[Nicole Wallace]

That's what they do. They're good at it. That was a weird, one of the weirdest things I've ever heard him say. I mean, Andrew Weissman, the last time he brought up anything like this was Helsinki. And we know how that ended. What, what did you hear there in that response?

[James Talarico]

So, you know, we, you and I talked about how Tulsi Gabbard, according to the reporting, overruled career CIA people who are raising the concern about methods and means and that she was saying we're going to release things, even though career people were saying, if you do this, you're going to endanger our intelligence and our ability to keep the country safe. What I am hearing is when you hear that anybody, including an adversary like Russia, Russia is able to hack into the court system where there are numerous documents filed under seal related to law enforcement concerns about intelligence, about methods, about sources that should raise for anybody who has been in the law enforcement community. And Donald Trump, remember, is not new to this. He was president for four years. The idea that he has such a cavalier response when, and anybody who has been in the intelligence community or in law enforcement is going to be reacting to this in the same way, in a bipartisan way to understand the danger to American interests. And so you have, I think, with Tulsi Gabbard, now with the president, this cavalier attitude about things that are there to make Americans safe from a person who is the head of a party that says we back the blue. You want to back the blue that makes sure that the law enforcement is safe and that the country is safe. And this is having sort of an insecure system is something that his job is making sure that doesn't happen.

[Nicole Wallace]

Mike, where does this end.

[Mike Schmidt]

The Trump Russia story?

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, do you see them mustering or fabricating enough to actually indict anybody? Or, I mean, what is their aim? What is their end game?

[Mike Schmidt]

Look, I think that, as Trump has seen in the past when he's pushed really hard for retribution. This came up around Andy McCabe getting someone indicted and getting criminal charges to move forward is a really, really high bar. While indeed it is a significant thing when the Justice Department is using its criminal powers to investigate, it's at a totally different level to move forward with the prosecution before a federal judge. Look, you know, who knows? And they certainly are going to try and seem to be putting a lot of effort into it. But if we look back at the first term, the first term is a lot of investigations. It's a lot of different examinations of the same question, the same exact questions that we're seeing here. And those never led to what Trump wanted. And the holy grail for them is a criminal prosecution like this. But they have never gotten there. And I think someone like Andrew would say, look, you know, like, yes, you could indict a ham sandwich, but it is really, truly difficult to really prosecute someone on these types of charges.

[Nicole Wallace]

Mike Schmidt and Andrew Weissman, thank you both for spending time with us on this. We're going to sneak in one more break. We'll be right back. A $500 million settlement between Harvard University and the Trump administration is on the table, according to reporting from the New York Times that negotiators for the White House and the university have made significant progress toward that in their closed door discussions over the past week. That is according to four people familiar with their deliberations, despite being more than double what Columbia University paid to the Trump administration. Part of the reported framework for this deal is that Harvard would spend the money on vocational and educational programs and research, and they would also avoid the appointment of a monitor hoping to preserve academic independence. We'll stay on top of that for you. Up next for us, broken promise after broken promise after broken promise. Donald Trump's failure to launch and deliver for the American consumer, the American people. That's our next story. Don't go anywhere.

[Rob Lowe]

Hey, everybody, it's Rob Lowe here. If you haven't heard, I have a podcast that's called Literally with Rob Lowe. And basically it's conversations I've had that really make you feel like you're pulling up a chair at an intimate dinner between myself and people that I admire, like Aaron Sorkin or Tiffany Haddish, Demi Moore, Chris Pratt, Michael J. Fox. There are new episodes out every Thursday. So subscribe, please, and listen wherever you get your podcasts.