“Giving them nightmares”

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Deadline: White House" - Episode “Giving them nightmares”

Released on August 5, 2025

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Introduction

In the episode titled “Giving them nightmares” of "Deadline: White House," host Nicolle Wallace delves deep into the tumultuous intersection of politics, legal battles, and public outrage surrounding former President Donald Trump's handling of the Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell cases. Drawing from recent developments, interviews with experts, and firsthand accounts from victims, Wallace provides a comprehensive analysis of the current political climate and its implications for American democracy.

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Trump's Maneuvering Around the Epstein Files

Nicolle Wallace opens the discussion by addressing Donald Trump's continued attempts to deflect criticism regarding his association with Jeffrey Epstein. At [01:04], she states:

"Donald Trump’s usual tricks of attacking his critics and filibustering through live call-in interviews do precious little to paper over the gaping questions about his handling of the Epstein files."

Despite Trump's efforts to distract the public through various means, the underlying issues remain unresolved, prompting increased scrutiny from both the media and the public.

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Unemployment Data and the Firing of Labor Statistic Chief

At [01:46], Chris Hayes highlights a significant move by President Trump:

"By firing this woman, you added to the unemployment rate."

Wallace elaborates on this point, suggesting that Trump's decision to terminate the labor statistic chief was a strategic move to divert attention from rising unemployment figures, exacerbating economic concerns.

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Victims' Letters and DOJ's Response

A pivotal moment in the episode revolves around the letters penned by Epstein's victims, which criticize the Trump administration's handling of the grand jury transcripts. At [03:22], Wallace emphasizes:

"Many of the victims themselves are pleading for more transparency."

These letters condemn the government's decision to release only certain parts of the transcripts, leaving victims feeling re-traumatized and marginalized. The Department of Justice responded by asserting that the released information contained no new revelations, a stance met with substantial backlash.

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Ghislaine Maxwell's Security Reclassification

Tara Palmeri discusses the controversial reclassification of Ghislaine Maxwell's prison security level at [09:34]:

"This is not the place where you put a sex trafficker. This is not the place where you put a pedophile who was not just an enabler for Jeffrey Epstein."

Maxwell's move to an even lower-security facility has sparked outrage, with experts like Palmeri questioning the rationale behind such a decision, especially given her conviction and the nature of her crimes.

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Impact on the DOJ and Government Transparency

Wallace highlights the systemic issues within the Trump administration's approach to justice and transparency. At [03:22], she notes the administration's inability to foster trust among victims:

"The Trump administration's attempt to brand their weird moves as transparent just is not working."

The persistent leak of information and contradictory actions have only deepened public mistrust, bringing to light the administration's flawed strategies in handling high-profile legal cases.

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The Transformation of the White House Press Pool

Claire McCaskill addresses the significant changes in the White House press pool at [40:00]:

"Those responsibilities were ripped away from the Correspondents Association and now run by the White House."

This shift has led to a more partisan press dynamic, allowing Trump to receive questions predominantly from friendly, conservative journalists, thereby minimizing critical scrutiny of his actions.

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Deteriorating Trust within the MAGA Movement

Angelo Carusone and Charlamagne Tha God discuss the internal fractures within the MAGA movement due to Trump's distraction tactics and handling of the Epstein files. At [24:10], Carusone states:

"America is watching Donald Trump pardon all these criminals... it is going to have an impact on the rule of law in this country."

Their analysis suggests that Trump's attempts to control the narrative are backfiring, leading to waning support and increased skepticism among his base.

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Republican Town Halls and Voter Discontent in Red States

The episode also sheds light on the growing discontent among Republican voters in traditionally red states. Featuring footage from Nebraska's red district at [52:00], Wallace illustrates how constituents are increasingly critical of their representatives:

"These voters in Ruby Red Nebraska are not happy with the Republican brand... This could be a harbinger for next year's midterm elections."

Town hall meetings have become battlegrounds where voters express frustration over issues like immigration, veterans' care, and fiscal policies, signaling potential challenges for the Republican Party in upcoming elections.

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Texas Legislature Crisis and Democratic Resistance

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to the constitutional crisis unfolding in Texas, where Democratic lawmakers have refused to comply with redistricting efforts led by Governor Greg Abbott. At [83:17], James Talarico remarks:

"They're trying to rob Texans of the ability to select the representatives of their choice... This is a page out of an authoritarian playbook."

The standoff has led to threats of arrest for Democratic legislators, underscoring the extreme measures some are willing to take to preserve democratic processes against perceived authoritarian overreach.

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Playbook of Authoritarianism and Media Silence

Chris Hayes discusses the alarming parallels between Texas' actions and historical authoritarian tactics at [89:03]:

"The American people are being lied to by this administration about who they are going after and why."

The administration's use of state machinery to suppress dissent and manipulate electoral outcomes has been met with minimal media resistance, raising concerns about the erosion of democratic norms.

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Democratic Party's Communication Challenges

Matt Dowd and Molly Jong-Fast explore the Democratic Party's struggles in effectively communicating with voters. At [62:34], Dowd observes:

"35% of Democrats disapprove of the Democratic Party."

Wallace and her guests argue that the Democratic Party needs to shift its communication strategies from appealing to the "head" to connecting with the "heart" and "gut" of voters to rebuild trust and mobilize support.

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Conclusion and Implications for Future Elections

Nicolle Wallace concludes the episode by emphasizing the critical juncture at which American politics stands. The mishandling of high-profile legal cases, internal party discontent, and aggressive authoritarian tactics by opposition parties threaten the very fabric of democracy. As midterm elections approach, the outcome will significantly influence the balance of power and the future direction of the nation's political landscape.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• [01:04] Nicolle Wallace: "Donald Trump’s usual tricks of attacking his critics and filibustering through live call-in interviews do precious little to paper over the gaping questions about his handling of the Epstein files."

• [03:22] Nicolle Wallace: "Many of the victims themselves are pleading for more transparency."

• [09:34] Tara Palmeri: "This is not the place where you put a sex trafficker. This is not the place where you put a pedophile who was not just an enabler for Jeffrey Epstein."

• [24:10] Angelo Carusone: "America is watching Donald Trump pardon all these criminals... it is going to have an impact on the rule of law in this country."

• [40:00] Claire McCaskill: "Those responsibilities were ripped away from the Correspondents Association and now run by the White House."

• [52:00] Representative Mike Flood: "We can't afford that. Yes, you can."

• [83:17] James Talarico: "This is a page out of an authoritarian playbook that we've seen in other countries, and it should be alarming to all of us, not just Democrats, but independents and Republicans, too."

• [62:34] Matt Dowd: "35% of Democrats disapprove of the Democratic Party."

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Final Thoughts

“Giving them nightmares” serves as a compelling examination of the intricate and often troubling dynamics within American politics. Nicolle Wallace effectively brings to light the pressing issues that could reshape the nation's future, urging listeners to stay informed and engaged as the political landscape evolves.

Transcript

[MSNBC Announcer]

Deadline. White House is brought to you by Progressive, where drivers who save by switching save nearly $750 on average. Plus auto customers qualify for an average of 7 discounts. Quote [e-mail] to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates national average 12 month savings of $744 by new customers surveyed who save with Progressive between June 2022 and May 2023. Potential savings will vary. Discounts not available in all states and situations. Saturday, October 11th from New York City, it's MSNBC Live 25. Join your favorite MSNBC hosts Rachel Maddow, Joe Scarborough, Mika Brzezinski, Nicole Wallace, Ari Melber, Alicia Menendez, Simone Sanders Townsend, Michael Steele, Chris Haynes, jen Psaki, Lawrence O', Donnell, Stephanie Ruhle and more. Visit msnbc.comlive25 to buy your tickets today.

[Nicole Wallace]

Hi there everyone. Happy Tuesday. It's 4 o' clock in the east. Donald Trump flailing today. His usual tricks of attacking his critics and filibustering through live call in interviews do precious little to paper over the gaping questions about his handling of the Epstein files. One day after being singled out by Donald Trump for saying that the Epstein case could break Donald Trump's grip on his base of supporters and the Republican Party radio and podcast host Charlamagne Tha God fired right back.

[Chris Hayes]

My fellow Americans, we are in a strange time right now, a time we have never seen because authoritarian strategy is being used against anyone who speaks out against this administration.

[Nicole Wallace]

We saw what happened Friday. President Trump orders the firing of labor statistic chief after data shows unemployment rates are higher. I don't know if you know President.

[Chris Hayes]

Trump, but by firing this woman, you added to the unemployment rate. But that, along with his reaction to.

[Claire McCaskill]

What I said on Lara Trump, shows.

[Chris Hayes]

How authoritarians will attempt to bully people into pushing false narratives.

[Nicole Wallace]

Whenever you see Trump trying to deflect from what's important, keep him focused.

[Chris Hayes]

Ask two simple questions.

[Nicole Wallace]

What about the economy?

[James Talarico]

What about the Epstein files?

[Nicole Wallace]

So what about it? Especially the second one, what about the Epstein files? So actually a question that a lot of people across the country are asking right now. And unease and anger over the Trump administration's handling of both issues, but especially the Epstein files, is being felt deeply across the country. It even came up at a rowdy and at times hostile town hall meeting being held by a Republican congressman in deep red Nebraska. Why are you covering up the Epstein files?

[MSNBC Announcer]

Be very clear. At the next pro forma session of the Congress, you'll find my name as a sponsor on a resolution from the House Rules Committee to release the Epstein files to protect the victims and not re victimize them again.

[Nicole Wallace]

As for those victims, many of the victims themselves are pleading for more transparency. As we reported yesterday, two victims wrote new letters to the federal court and the Justice Department ripping the government for its handling of the case and the administration's request to release grand jury transcripts in the Epstein and Maxwell cases. One of those letters says, quote, I am not some pawn in your political warfare. Another says that the Trump administration is, quote, asking to release these transcripts, exhibits, etc. Of which the victims are not privy to. While they have concluded that there is nothing more to see on the files they hold, yet no one has seen them but them. I am beside myself. Well, it turns out those grand jury transcripts contain no new information. That's according to an admission from the Trump Justice Department. In a letter to a judge filed this morning. DOJ says this, quote, much of the information provided during the course of the grand jury testimony, with the exception of the identities of certain victims and witnesses, was made publicly available at trial or has otherwise been publicly reported through the public statements of victims and witnesses. Now, on the whole, the Trump administration's attempt to brand their weird moves as transparent just is not working. It's being undermined by a steady drip of revelations that only add to the questions around Trump, Jeffrey Epstein and their years long friendship. Last week, you'll recall, Trump said this about kicking Jeffrey Epstein out of Mar? A Lago.

[MSNBC Announcer]

He took people that work for me and I told him, don't do it anymore. And he did it. And I said, stay the hell out of here.

[Nicole Wallace]

Trump later said that one of the employees Epstein, quote, stole from him was Epstein accuser Virginia Jeffrey. She met Epstein's longtime girlfriend and accomplice Ghislaine Maxwell at the spot in Mar? A Lago in the year 2000. Now this is important because that version of events from Trump contradicts years of reporting from the Washington Post and other news outlets that makes clear that Trump's story before this was that he and Epstein fell out of a real estate deal in the year 2004. Today, the Daily Beast adds new and further complicating data points. They point this out, quote, epstein was a member of the club until October 2007, more than one year after he was indicted and released on bail, according to the book the Grifters Club, Trump, Mar A Lago and the Selling of the Presidency. And while it is possible that Epstein was already banned from physically walking inside the club, the Daily Beast notes this Quote, in the footnotes of their book, the team of Miami Herald journalists Sarah Blasky, Caitlin Ostroff, Nicholas Nehemias and Jay Weaver report quote, the authors viewed a membership list showing that Epstein's account had been closed in October 2007. Donald Trump finding himself on the other side of survivors and a majority of the American public regarding showing that he's interested in being transparent in the Epstein case as questions about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein refused to die down is where we start today. Podcast host and author of the Red Letter on Substack. Tara Palmeri is back with us. She has hosted two investigative series on the topic called Jeffrey Epstein and the Maxwells. Also joining us, former Democratic senator, MSNBC political analyst Claire McCaskill is here and former criminal division deputy chief at STMY MSNBC legal analyst, host of a new YouTube show Courtside. Christy Greenberg is here. Tara, I read your new reporting today and was mind my mind was blown by your reporting and sort of weaving together the Ghislaine Maxwell story. I want to ask you to take us through it, but I first want to get your reaction to these two letters from victims to the judge and the Department of Justice really calling out the handling of the political firestorm in a way that completely neglects the victims of Epstein and Maxwell's.

[Tara Palmeri]

It's been a mess and it's been a disgrace and it's consistent with everything I've heard. They keep telling me over and over again they feel left out. They're out of the loop. They're wondering why they're not getting a call and why it's Ghislaine Maxwell. And they also feel re traumatized by this, the idea that there may be some sort of deal happening behind their backs with Glenn Maxwell after all those years of testimony of having to tell their stories over again and being traumatized. This is really consistent with what I have been hearing over and over again about feeling like they are about to be let down again. And let's not even go back to, you know, 2008 when that sweetheart non prosecution agreement came out and Jeffrey Epstein got a slap on the wrist. He was, he was supposed to get 60 federal crimes against him and it went down to zero. And he spent 13 months in a county jail with work release half the time and an ankle bracelet and was called a sex offender. So this is giving them nightmares, deja vu and they don't trust the government which is supposed to be looking out for them and for all of us.

[Nicole Wallace]

What is their understanding of why or the circumstances around what happened between Friday and our broadcast yesterday that Kendall Laney and Lisa Rubin at our network reported that Ghislaine Maxwell was moved from a low security prison to an even lower security prison, and that there was a rather unusual or unprecedented waiver granted by the Bureau of Prisons, something that an expert said he'd never seen for sex offenders.

[Tara Palmeri]

It's. It's unheard of. And I was speaking to Maria Farmer, you know, who went to the FBI in 1996 to report Jeffrey Epstein and then again in 2004, and has been cooperating the entire way. And she called me yesterday and she was like, I'm worried. The next step is house arrest. That's what it feels like. I mean, this is a place where Elizabeth Holmes is. She's about to get out in 2032. She's got visitation rights because she has a toddler. They have fences here. This is not the place where you put a sex trafficker. This is not the place where you put a pedophile who was not just an enabler for Jeffrey Epstein. And that's why I wrote that piece, Nicole, not for you, because I know you're aware of that and you understand that she was a predator herself. She had the psychology of a psychopath, the type of person who could manipulate while pretending to show care, emotional detachment and where she learned it. And I think they're terrified that this person is going to be let loose again because she should be looked at as someone who could be let loose as a predator.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, something that people don't understand. And I run into people, and I'm often listening to your podcast or listening to something old that I missed from Julie Brown or really trying to educate myself. A lot of people don't know or understand that she participated in the sexual abuse. Can you just remind folks what Ghislaine Maxwell has been convicted of?

[Tara Palmeri]

Well, in the case of Virginia Giuffre, who Glenn Maxwell, by the way, found in the spa at Mar a Lago, Jeffrey Epstein couldn't get into a lady's spa, right, and find the attendant there. And she. She found her. She brought her to Jeffrey Epstein's house, said, I will make you a traveling masseuse. That was Virginia's dream at the time. She was reading a book about how to do it. And when she got into the house, it was Glenn Maxwell who took off her panties before Jeffrey Epstein touched her. You know, in the case of Annie Farmer, it was Ghislaine Maxwell who fondled her breast when she was 16 years old, isolated on the Zorro ranch in New Mexico, where Jeffrey Epstein dreamed of turning it into a place to breed children. This is a sick, depraved woman who not only enabled this, created a pyramid scheme, by the way, in a local high school, managed it, which took a lot of work, believe it or not, shuttling these children back and forth, making sure they all came so that Jeffrey Epstein could get his three orgasms per day. I mean, this was a sophisticated operation. It required pilots, chefs, chauffeurs, cooks moving around, and she ran it all. She was a lady of the house and she engaged in the abuse at the same time. Now, that's why so many of the victims feel like she's even worse. They feel even more betrayed by her. Because in the case of Annie, I mean, she told me in an interview that she said, you know, when Jeffrey, when I first met him, I thought, who's this guy? You know, he feels a little weird. But when she heard, when she heard that her. That his girlfriend Glenn was coming with him to this ranch, she thought it would be okay. And it was Glenn who called her mother and said it would be okay. So she opened doors for Jeffrey to children that he would have never gotten.

[Nicole Wallace]

What, Tara, in your brain explains the lack of a media firestorm around the way they're talking about Maxwell Todd. Blanche's two visits to Maxwell in prison and the move that's been described as unprecedented by an expert from the Bureau who consults folks dealing with the Bureau of Prisons for Ghislaine Maxwell being moved from a low security facility to an even lower security facility.

[Tara Palmeri]

I just, I wonder if the outrage is just not there. I mean, I. Maybe they think she's just some sort of accomplice. She had this minor role. I mean, obviously President Trump has nothing terrible to say about her, right? He said he wished her well and his followers clearly don't see the depravity of what she did. And maybe they don't understand her and where she came from. I mean, the way that she spoke about these girls. One of her friends that I interviewed, Christina Oxenberg, said she was, that she would say they are nothing, they are trash. I mean, this is a twisted, sick person. And, you know, she was actively participating in the abuse. I just don't think there's enough of an outrage about her involvement in the sex trafficking ring. And perhaps that's why this is all happening and it's happening so quickly. Nicole, I don't blame them for being worried that the next week she's going to be in house arrest. What is the next step after this.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, let me pull you into this, Kristi Greenberg. What is a judge likely to do in response to these two pretty harrowing and devastating letters from victims yesterday?

[Kristi Greenberg]

Well, I am sure that the judge is looking at those letters and saying, why isn't the government talking to the victims? Why isn't the government communicating? And the obvious answer as to why there is really a lack of communication here is because the line prosecutors aren't involved. These filings from the government. There's no line prosecutor on that signature block. You've got Todd Blanche, Pam Bondi, and you've got Jay Clayton, who's the U.S. attorney, but there's no line prosecutor. And it's the line prosecutors who have the relationships with the victims, who would have prepared those victims to be able to testify at trial or at a bare minimum, give them information that they could use to investigate, and they're gone because they fired them. They fired Maureen Comey, who was the lead prosecutor on this case. They got rid of Andrew Rohrabach, who is another prosecutor who was on this case. So that is key here. The other thing that is fascinating to me, and I'm sure the judge, in addition to really looking at how the victims are feeling, is we got a filing today in the case from Maxwell in which she's opposed to unsealing the grand jury transcripts. And she, in that filing which was so striking, she says she is a scapegoat. Today she said she is a scapegoat for Jeffrey Epstein's crimes. She said there was a media firestorm and that the trial mischaracterized the evidence against her. This is someone who to this day has not admitted her guilt, who is not showing any remorse. So of course, the victims feel betrayed when the number two of the Department of Justice sits down with that person and says, I'm open to hearing your account. I'm open to hearing what you have to say in that you may be credible. When she's still denying that she did anything wrong. That is unheard of. When you sit down as a government prosecutor with someone, they have to be the first step is to be able to say, yes, I am guilty. I did it. Here's what I did wrong, and here's how I'm going to try to make things right. And the fact that she hasn't even taken that step is extraordinary. So I don't see beyond anything that's already public, the judge in this case looking to make any of these, any of these parts of the transcript public against what the victims and what the defendant in the case are asking for.

[Nicole Wallace]

Claire, let me bring this back to the victims again by showing you what Virginia Giuffre's brother said about, again, another part of the story that Trump himself elevated and platformed with his bizarre comments on Air Force One about stealing women from the. They weren't women. Girls from the spa. Mar A Lago. Here's, here's Virginia's brother.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

When you said the president invoked your.

[Tara Palmeri]

Sister'S name, he said specifically that word.

[Nicole Wallace]

When he described her as being stolen, having been, quote, unquote stolen.

[Tara Palmeri]

What went through your mind when you heard that?

[Nicole Wallace]

I think we were shocked by it, especially to use the term stolen.

[MSNBC Announcer]

Because.

[Nicole Wallace]

She'S not an object, she's a person. She's a mom, she's a sister. And she was recruited by Maxwell.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

It wasn't stolen.

[Nicole Wallace]

She was recruited at Mar a Lago.

[Claire McCaskill]

His property place where she was looking.

[Nicole Wallace]

Forward to having fun that summer.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

And it just kind of makes us.

[Nicole Wallace]

Wonder.

[Claire McCaskill]

I mean, how much he knew.

[James Talarico]

You know, especially.

[Claire McCaskill]

And it's in our statement that a couple of years later, you know, he.

[James Talarico]

Made a statement on Epstein and, you.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Know, how he liked young girls.

[James Talarico]

And so, yeah, it does make us.

[Claire McCaskill]

Question how much did he know?

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, Claire, what is the difference between knowing that young girls are being, quote, stolen from your spa and knowing that young girls are being trafficked?

[Tara Palmeri]

Well, not much.

[Angelo Carusone]

And, you know, the short answer as to why the victims haven't been consulted and why the victims have been left out of this sordid affair is because the people who are doing this don't care about them at all. Donald Trump doesn't care about the victims of these crimes. Pam Biondi doesn't care about the victims. None of them care about the victims. So that's one big problem. You know, the other thing I would say here is if they do anything to pardon this predator, this person who looked at these victims as trash, sexually assaulted children, if they do anything to lessen her sentence. I think we haven't spent enough time, Nicole, talking about the impact that has on juries in other cases, because America is watching Donald Trump pardon all these criminals. I mean, people who have been convicted, people who pled guilty to serious crimes in serious time, and he is pardoning them with one simple rule. If they're my friends and they support me or they're connected to somebody who's given me a lot of money, that's what cheapens our system. And if you're sitting on a jury and you're presented with strong evidence that someone has committed fraud or someone has robbed a bank or someone has trafficked drugs. You're thinking in the back of your mind, well, you know, this kid doesn't know anybody. And if he did, Donald Trump would let him off. Should I really even convict him? It is going to have an impact on the rule of law in this country and it's going to have an impact on public safety, to say nothing on what it does in terms of cheapening. The Justice Department, which used to be the crown jewel, the FBI and the DOJ had professionals, not politicians, professionals that were looking after your well being. They are being kicked to the curb in favor of political sycophants.

[Nicole Wallace]

It's just I have tried so hard to sort of travel to the center of the political moment. And even in that centered moment, those politics do not suggest that rewarding leniency for Maxwell is the right thing to do. I mean, even at the bottom of the looking glass, if we're in Alice in Wonderland's world, which is what it feels like most days, it makes zero sense to listen to hours of Kash Patel and Dan Bongino and Joe Rogan and others and Laura Loomer who have talked about this issue. So we'll stay on this. Since we've been on the air, there is another letter from another victim. I'll get that. I'll share that with all of you and with our viewers. Also ahead, if Donald Trump is expected to answer for a lack of transparency on Jeffrey Epstein, certainly he's got to be asked about it right from a normal press corps. We'll examine why that isn't happening. We'll examine this new era for White House reporters and their new constitution in this Trump 2.0 media world. Also ahead, anger and betrayal at the grassroots. We'll show you more from congressional town hall meetings with Republican lawmakers across the country. The latest instance of regular voters, ordinary Americans sharing a bit of what's on their minds with their elected leaders. Also ahead for us, the GOP's ongoing election related misbehavior. What Donald Trump believes he's, quote, entitled to. First Texas and then what? We'll have all those stories and more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

[MSNBC Announcer]

MSNBC Films presents Season 2 of Leguizamo does America, an NBC News Studios production hosted by John Leguizamo. On the final episode, John travels to San Antonio, Texas, the birthplace of Tex Mex cuisine.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

And guess what? It's also considered the cradle of Latin civil rights movements.

[MSNBC Announcer]

Leguizamo Does America season finale Sunday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC and streaming on Peacock.

[Chris Hayes]

Hey, everyone, it's Chris Hayes. This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening? Journalist and author E. Jean Carroll.

[Angelo Carusone]

I came to love the process of the judicial system, and I found it very exonerating. I got to tell my story in court. I got to tell my story when thousands of millions of people called me a liar. So it was very satisfying.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

That's this week on why is this Happening?

[Chris Hayes]

Search for why is this Happening? Wherever you're listening right now.

[MSNBC Announcer]

And follow Start your day with the MSNBC daily newsletter. Each morning, read sharp insights from the voices you trust. Catch standout moments from your favorite shows.

[Nicole Wallace]

The second Trump administration has gone to unprecedented lengths to radically transform America.

[MSNBC Announcer]

Stay up to speed with our latest podcasts and documentaries and get fresh perspectives from experts shaping the news. It's everything you love about MSNBC delivered to your inbox. Sign up [e-mail] I think people get the point that Donald Trump is madly pointing his fingers in 500 different directions to try to distract everybody from the Epstein investigation, where he's been completely hoist on his own petard. I mean, he was the one who mobilized everybody's attention to Epstein. And then everybody's saying, great, release the files. But suddenly he knows what's in the files because they had a thousand FBI agents pouring over them looking for his name, looking for photographs, looking for video. And guess what he comes back and.

[Chris Hayes]

Says, nothing to see here, guys.

[MSNBC Announcer]

Forget about that whole Epstein thing.

[Chris Hayes]

Let's talk about Joe Biden.

[MSNBC Announcer]

Let's talk about Barack Obama.

[Chris Hayes]

Let's go after some people about the.

[MSNBC Announcer]

Russian investigation again, which they have investigated and reinvestigated a dozen different times.

[Nicole Wallace]

We're back with Tara, Claire and Christy. So, Tara, this has happened since we've been on the air. A new letter from attorneys for Annie Farmer. Now, she and her sister are both, they are both accusers. I believe Annie testified against Ghislaine Maxwell, is that right, Tara?

[Tara Palmeri]

Yeah, yeah. Annie testified in the 2021 case. She was molested on the ranch when she was 16 years old. They brought her across state lines and she has not been able to get in touch with the prosecutors. The line prosecutor Maureen Comey, I mean, that was her contact and she has been frustrated. I've been talking to her every other day and her sister Marie Maria, at least every day. And that's, that's a really big frustration for them is they want to have a dialogue. They want to be able to stop this from happening. But they feel like it's a train that's already left, you know, the station and they can't stop it. So this is what they're trying to do right now. It's a really horrifying thing and it's sort of like what happened with the non prosecution agreement. It was signed without the knowledge of the victims and that's why they fought for their crime victims rights in 2008. They fought bitterly for that because they signed the sweetheart deal that people who were co conspirators, named and unnamed would never be prosecuted. That included Ghislaine Maxwell, by the way. And once the victims found out that they were not notified about that, they fought so hard to have that non prosecution agreement overturned. And it was like it was, it was a really, really tough fight. And so to see this happening again, I just don't think people understand how hard they have been fighting against the Justice Department that should be fighting for them.

[Nicole Wallace]

So let me read from their new letter. This is I guess the third letter in 24 hours to a non anonymous victims filed letters yesterday. This is from lawyers for Annie Farmer to Judge Berman and Judge Engelmeier. And they write this. Dear Judges Berman and Engelmeier, we write on behalf of Annie Farmer in response to the belated notice that we received from the Department of Justice advising that the court is seeking letters on behalf of victims setting out their positions in the proposed disclosures of Jeffrey Epstein's and Ghislaine Maxwell's grand jury transcripts. By the government's admission, over 1,000 victims suffered from Epstein's and Maxwell's actions. To date, however, the combined forces of our country's law enforcement agencies have only ever arrested these two individuals in connection with crimes committed against countless young women and girls. And the government's recent suggestion that no further criminal investigations are forthcoming is a cowardly abdication of its duties to protect and serve. It's obviously impossible for two people to conduct a decades long sex trafficking enterprise involving thousands of victims without other individuals who participated in and facilitated these unspeakable atrocities. They also reference something that Kash Patel and Dan Bongino talk about at length in their appearances before they joined this Trump administration. Tara, this is back from the letter. Quote, while it was not the victim's decision to seek disclosure of the grand jury transcripts alone, as opposed to the much larger volume of information available in the quote, more than 300 gigabytes of data and physical evidence in the government's possession that should be Disclosed as well. The instant motion for unsealing will help expose the magnitude and abhorrence of Epstein's and Maxwell's crimes. The idea that the only people sort of holding the line against this, what is now an inconvenient fact for Trump and Patel and Bongino and Bondi is Joe Rogan and the victims themselves is insane. I mean, this has been, this is, this is sort of the foundational fact of the conspiracies around the Epstein story, that these 300 gigabytes of data have been hidden and that if Trump is reelected, they'll be released. I mean, Trump is now single handedly able to release them if he wanted to today and make all this go away. Why isn't that the single call from Trump's base?

[Tara Palmeri]

That is, that is the crux of this all. I mean, even before Pam Bondi said case closed, I went back to senior law enforcement source and I asked about these, the gigabytes, the files, the footage, the video. When you looked at the New York Times story where they showed inside of the townhouse, you saw there are little cameras everywhere. They had surveillance everywhere. And the victims knew about it as well. That was a huge part of the operation. And they, and they said, we passed it on to Pam Bondi. Right? We passed it on to her. Well, she has it. They're sitting on this evidence. And I remember Virginia Giuffre told me that, that she went to the FBI headquarters with Stan Pottinger to look at pictures of her through pictures of Johns and, and girls and just try to see if she could identify her body. And she couldn't identify her body. None of the bodies were hers. But they're sitting on this. They have this, they have evidence. And I know that that kind of evidence, it's difficult to release, but they should. There's a case there, there is more to this story. It's not case closed.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, Kristi Greenberg, how is this not the issue that forces Trump to appoint a special counsel or someone to reexamine what is now sort of the center of both the victim's request and his own supporters request. And that's the, quote, more than 300 gigabytes of data and physical evidence, end quote.

[Kristi Greenberg]

So the memo, that two page unsigned memoirs said that there was all this evidence and then said, look, but we, you know, as Tara said, it was, well, case closed. We're not going to, we don't see anything there to investigate or prosecute anyway, even to investigate anyone else, even to open. We don't see anything There, that seems pretty extraordinary. And I don't know why Congress is not seeking to have Pam Bondi testify, have Todd Blanche testify, have Kash Patel testify. But rather than go back years and years and years, go to the people who reviewed all of that data, who oversaw the review of all of that data and concluded that there was no investigation to be brought because it defies common sense. If There are over 1,000 victims and these victims are saying there are other people who abused them, then yes, you would think that there were other avenues for investigation that could be opened. And I don't understand for the life of me why the again, the deputy attorney general decided that his time was best spent sitting down with a proven liar in Galen Maxwell rather than actually engaging with the victims lawyers. If you, if you fire the line prosecutors, then at least you, and you're taking on that role yourself, then you can at least engage with the victims attorneys, hear what they have to say. We should be hearing from the victims and not the proven liar who victimized them. And the one other point that I would just want to make here today, there was some reporting that Maxwell's interview, the one that she had with Todd Blanche, that there may be either audio or a transcript of that that may become public. Again, this person is a liar and anything she said during that interview view is going to be completely self serving again. She just filed in court today of something that said she's a scapegoat and that the evidence against her was mischaracterized. So nothing that she says there is going to do anything other than paint her as the victim. Which has been the right wing talking point that Gillan Maxwell is somehow the victim and she's not. And so the idea that we may not see what is in the grand jury transcripts which is going to be to paint her as the monster that she is and instead we're going to hear her self serving version of it. That's a con. I mean just plain and simple. That is they are not telling you the truth. They are telling you what their version of the truth is and they're certainly not going to appoint a special counsel because then again that person presumably would have some level of independence. Trump wants Bondi and Blanche who as soon as they found out that Trump's name was in the file went and reported that back to him. They're not independent and that's exactly what he wants, someone who will protect him and his interests, not the interests of the victims.

[Nicole Wallace]

Claire, we're in year nine of watching Donald Trump Play a character in a lot of instances, particularly in the middle of a crisis, if you were playing a person who's innocent, who wants to be responsive to his base's fervent desire to be transparent, he would treat Ghislaine Maxwell like what he describes as, quote, the worst of the worst, and send her to seekat. I mean, what do you ascribe Trump's conduct to?

[Angelo Carusone]

Well, this is not a well person, obviously. And by the way, can I just point out one of my favorite quotes of Mark Twain, a great Missourian who said, if you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything. Look at how Donald Trump has stepped. Look how Donald Trump has stepped all over the timeline. Look how he has lied repeatedly about his relationship with Maxwell, his relationship with Epstein. When things happened, how they happened, why they happened. All of that can be disproved by evidence, clear, uncontradictory evidence. So not only is Donald Trump a liar, he's a really bad liar. He's almost as bad at lying as he is at being president. So it is really, I think, important to remember that when you can show, as Tara well knows, and as my colleague who spent time in a courtroom like I did prosecuting sexual assault cases, your timeline is essential to proving to the jury what happened when he clearly kept this guy in the rolls at Mar a Lago after he's indicted for having sex with children. Give me a break. This is ridiculous. Release the files. Let us see what's in it, and let the chips fall where they may. And if you're so innocent, Mr. President, then you will be vindicated. My guess is you won't.

[Nicole Wallace]

Tara Palmieri, Claire McCaskill, and Christy Greenberg, thank you for answering my endless questions about all of this. We are grateful. Coming up next for us, the Trump administration is working overtime to convince Americans to move on from wanting these questions answered about Jeffrey Epstein. Is he getting some help in trying to run from this story? Well, ask that question next.

[Kristi Greenberg]

Not lowering interest rates again. Many people say that he's playing politics with the futures of millions.

[MSNBC Announcer]

Well, he is.

[Nicole Wallace]

We call him Too Late.

[MSNBC Announcer]

He's Too Late. It's his new nickname.

[Nicole Wallace]

Hillary Clinton finally be investigated for election fraud?

[MSNBC Announcer]

I hope so. I hope so. I know. Don't know whether or not that'll happen, but I hope so.

[Nicole Wallace]

Actress Sydney Speedy came out this weekend that she was a registered Republican. Any thoughts on that?

[MSNBC Announcer]

That who was?

[Nicole Wallace]

Sydney Sweeney. She's like a very hot actress right now.

[MSNBC Announcer]

She's a registered Republican. Oh, now I love her aunt is that right is Sydney Sweeney. You'd be surprised at how many people are Republicans.

[Nicole Wallace]

Is it True you weigh 195? Now in the middle of the Epstein scandal, a scandal that has consumed the White House, frankly, more than any other that Donald Trump has faced as a politician or president. Those are the questions that Trump is fielding from what is now a hand picked, totally transformed MAGA friendly press corps. Whether intentional or not, it is assisting Donald Trump tremendously in the distraction campaign when he has not asked any questions about why he is making convicted sex offender Ghislaine Maxwell more comfortable by moving her to a lower security prison. The Trump administration is also escalating this distraction campaign. As we first reported on our broadcast yesterday, Attorney General Pam Bondi has ordered a grand jury investigation into whether officials in the Obama administration committed federal crimes when they assessed Russia's influence in the 2016 election. Assessments that have been corroborated by two Republican led investigations, including by Donald Trump's Secretary of State, Marco Rubio. Joining our coverage and our conversation on these topics is White House correspondent for the New York times, author of 2024, Tyler Pager is here. And the president of Media Matters for America, Angelo Caracon is here. So, Tyler, I'm so glad you're here. Vaughn Hillyer painted a really important picture for me yesterday when I'm a million years old. But when I worked in a White House and there was a scandal, it didn't matter if the journalists worked at Fox News or MSNBC or NBC, if there was a scandal, the journalists from all those networks had questions about the scandal engulfing the administration in which I served. I find it perplexing that Donald Trump is on, Frankly, CNBC for 32 minutes and isn't asked a single question about the scandal that by his White House's own admission has engulfed the West Wing. And I wonder if you can just paint a picture for me of the dynamic and the relationship between Donald Trump and what is a pretty transformed White House press corps.

[Claire McCaskill]

Yeah, I think one of the noteworthy things that we've seen this administration do is play a bigger role in selecting the journalists that get to cover the president. We've seen many legal fights over this very matter after the administration banned the Associated Press and Nicole. This is more intricate than maybe some people realize, but I do think it has real implications. As you just outlined, there is a group of journalists that rotates through who's with the president in confined spaces, whether that's the Oval Office or on Air Force One. It's called the White House Press pool, and normally the people who are selected to be filling those roles is run by an independent organization of White House correspondents, the White House Correspondents Association. Those responsibilities were ripped away from the Correspondence association and now run by the White House. So each day, the journalists that are in the pool, some of those are handpicked by the White House, and those are the journalists asking those questions that we heard that are large, largely off topic or friendly toward the President. And it allows him to create and drive news cycles in largely conservative spaces unrelated to some of the most pressing issues of the day. So it's absolutely true that the changing press pool, led by the White House changes, has resulted in the President receiving questions that he's more eager to answer. And we've seen him often call out these journalists and say, who are you from? From, you know, I love you. We should be taking questions just from them. And it's often from clearly partisan, conservative.

[Nicole Wallace]

Outlets, which makes it all the more amazing that these are his approval ratings. Let me read this to you guys. According to the Washington Post, Trump's handling of the Epstein files Among MAGA Republicans, 43% approve, 17% disapprove, 39% have no opinion that even with the deck stacked that much in his favor, where he has basically tossed out the kind of press corps that covered him in the first term, at least in numbers that I understand there are still actual journalists in the White House press corps. Is that fair to say, Tyler? I mean, you cover. Absolutely.

[Claire McCaskill]

We are still there and we are still asking the tough questions when we have the opportunity to do so, and don't want to diminish the fact that there are real journalistic outlets that still do have access. It's obviously changed and diminished from previous administrations, but absolutely, when we get the opportunity to ask the President questions, as I have, we absolutely do do that.

[Nicole Wallace]

And when you've asked them for information, or I should ask you, have you asked the White House why Ghislaine Maxwell was moved from a low security prison to a lower security prison?

[Claire McCaskill]

Yeah, those are questions that have been asked. I don't think we've gotten a real answer on that. I mean, you know, it's something that that is. Obviously the press corps is very energized and focused on, but I don't. I haven't seen for myself a real substantive answer on that decision.

[Nicole Wallace]

And when his Cabinet officials go out on other programs or avail them themselves, are they pressured to answer these questions? Or what is the dynamic with his Cabinet, which is more politically aligned with him than, I think, any cabinet in any presidential history.

[Claire McCaskill]

Yeah, I mean, I think it has become clear that for many of these Cabinet officials, the most important thing is to be aligned on the message front with the President. The President is a, you know, avid watcher of tv and very much so will often call members of Congress or Cabinet officials after they appear on tv. He's keenly aware of what they're saying and what they're doing. I mean, just for an example, yesterday we saw the Pentagon post on social media a picture of Pete Hegseth walking down the steps of his plane wearing jeans and sort of riffing on the Sydney Sweeney ad that the President jumped on after he was informed that she was a registered Republican. So, so we are seeing, I mean, Nicole, this is sort of the broad answer to your question, is they are going to stay in line and repeat the talking points from the President and from the White House. And ultimately, we're not seeing a lot of daylight or distance between the President and any of the senior Cabinet officials or White House officials.

[Nicole Wallace]

It's super important to appreciate the circumstances and the challenges that you guys have. I appreciate you entertaining these questions. I'm going to ask both of you to stick around through a quick break. We'll have much more on this on the other side. We're back with Tyler and Angela. So, Angelo, you have me fixated on this measure of narrative dominance. And it feels that the dynamic that Bond talked about yesterday and Tyler's describing goes a long way toward aiding Trump in securing news cycle after news cycle of narrative dominance. And, and I think what makes this story so interesting is the gigabytes that the victims are writing about in the letter today to the judge are the same gigabytes that Cash Patel and Dan Bongino and Joe Rogan have been on the airwaves, the podcast airwaves, talking about, for years now. Just talk about how this story is different and sort of eludes their control measures. Yeah.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

And I think that what you did, part of that distinction, even what you just said there when you pointed out the fact that, that it's podcasters. Because one of the crucial things that separates this from, say, other instances and why Trump's sort of control over the narrative is kind of unspun, is because. And it sort of gets into something Telly mentioned before. Trump watches tv. He's not really tapped into this larger ecosystem. So even though he's been able to demonstrate real downstream effect over it, you know, and control it essentially by just by having, you know, so this gravitational force. This is one instance where his lack of connection to what's happening in the space is leading him to do things that are actually furthering his effort to lose control. He's losing more and more control because even just picking this, let's point out here, he's using an old standby, which is this Russia, which was this Russia conspiracy theory. The podcasters don't care about that. They recently joined right wing media. They're not, they're not really folk fixated on this. It's actually really old news for them. And to the extent they ever cared, it's done. I mean, this is something that was really part of Fox News and the FOX ecosystem and talk radio for so long. Sort of the traditional thing that you'd expect Trump to consume. That is what he's tapping into. But by doing that, what he's effectively doing is one, he's picking a story that has almost no traction in the very podcast ecosystem that has helped fuel not just Trump's ascent during the campaign, but has helped him reinforce his narrative dominance because they have been echoing the story that has been coming out of right wing media. So what he's actually done here is he is one tapped something that's not interesting to them. So they're not going to pick it up. Yeah, sure, Fox News is going to talk about it. They're happily going to talk about this. This is the greatest thing that's ever happened to Sean Hannity. He gets to break open the Russiagate conspiracy all over again. He has come out of the woodwork. I mean, it's hard to overstate how irrelevant and disconnected from the story Sean Hattie has been. And now, you know, he bursts in because this is it. This is his moment.

[Nicole Wallace]

He's got all the ethics of the Mueller investigation. It's such a smart point, Angelo. I mean, you're so right. And if you listen, I mean, this is when I realized how central the Epstein stories are to Trump's support in the MAGA adjacent manosphere. And they're not maga. And I'm not talking about the Megyn Kelly's and the Ben Shapiro's and the Andy Kirks, Charlie Kirks, whoever those are. Those are, those are MAGA spokespeople who will be interchangeable with Caroline Leavitt and the White House propagandists. I'm talking about the people who really swayed the folks that don't vote all the time. Joe Rogan's audience and then Joe Rogan's community of comedians. Shane Gillis, who hosted the ESPYs and made a joke about the Epstein files. He said, I had an Epstein joke, but it must have been deleted. I mean, this influence on culture aiding Donald Trump is to me still this untold political story. And to lose that, I think has seismic political impact on the MAGA movement.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

It does, because one of the effects, and you know, I get this question sometimes in my friends, look, so what? Right? I mean, so, so they're not, so they're, they're mad at him about Epstein. So what, what does that matter? And again, I won't overstate it, but there is one immediate effect, and it points to the politics you're talking about, is that they're not just criticizing Trump and the way that he's dealing with this Epstein stuff. It's all the second. You sort of, and they're not just not echoing what's happening in the right media. Those are two bad things alone. But the third thing is that it's also created some space where now their own individual gripes are starting to come out. They're criticizing him more on immigration or the economy or other policies. And that's where you go from them not toeing the line anymore to softening the ground for a political change. A disaffected of the very audience that he, for that he, that he recently captivated, that to me is the political. So what is that they're criticizing him more.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah. And they don't need to become Democrats. They just need to tune out of politics altogether and he loses that big sway. Angelo, stick around with us a little bit longer. Tyler Pajard, thank you for having this conversation with us. Super important for our ability really to understand and appreciate everything you guys are able to do. Thank you so much. Up next for us voters confronting their lawmakers about all of this, well home for summer break not working out too well for some of those Republican lawmakers. We'll show you what that looks like when the next hour deadline White House starts after a very short break. Don't go anywhere.

[MSNBC Announcer]

Saturday, October 11th from New York City, it's MSNBC Live 25. Join your favorite MSNBC hosts, Rachel Maddow, Joe Scarborough, Mika Brzezinski, Nicole Wallace, Ari Melville, Alicia Menendez, Simone Sanders Townsend, Michael Steele, Chris Haynes, jen Psaki, Lawrence O', Donnell, Stephanie Rule and more. Visit msnbc.comlive25 to buy your tickets today. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access, ad free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace. Why is this happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddows original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. I want to ask, why does it seem like when you make your voting decision they're based on capital rather than the working class? Billionaires and corporations got their tax issues enshrined in the law forever, but the working class gets a no tax on tips or overtime. That only applies to some of us. And now we wind up in a situation where we are, with all due respect, sir, the Republican Party now more than ever represents the heart and soul of the working class.

[Nicole Wallace]

That's about how it's going to be a Republican right now in America. Not just in America, but in Ruby red Nebraska. Hi again everybody. It's five o' clock in the east. That was a little peek into a red district in Nebraska, Congressional district number one where the Republican there, Mike Flood, who you saw scrolling through his notes looking for how to answer an angry constituent, one with 60% of the vote. We showed you a little bit in the last hour. But last night at an in person town hall, Flood's constituents took him to task over and over. It only took two minutes for tensions to heighten, particularly over new Republican spending bills.

[MSNBC Announcer]

I want to go right into this bill because I know this is something a lot of people have questions about. And quite frankly, from where I sit, there's been a lot of misinformation out there about the bill.

[Nicole Wallace]

The crowd of about 750 people in attendance voiced its discontent on a variety of issues, from the ICE detentions to veterans care to the nation's debt. But health care was a huge part of their discontent.

[MSNBC Announcer]

Would you sign on or write up a bill for Medicare for all we've got Medicare now, we can start rolling back the age 5, 10 years at a time. Would you support that? We can't afford that. Yes, you can. One of those changes is that if you are able to work and you are able bodied, you have to work. If you choose not to work, you do not get free health care. You do not get free health care. Okay, okay. So here's a question. So here's a question. Do you think that people who are 28 years old that can work and refuse to work should get free health care? I don't think that a majority of Nebraskans agree with you. I truly believe this bill protects Medicaid for the future.

[Nicole Wallace]

The message coming from these town hall attendees, loud and clear. There heard it for yourself. These voters in Ruby Red Nebraska are not happy with the Republican brand, the Republican Party, the Republican representative and his practice of blindly rubber stamping all of Donald Trump's policies and practices, especially the parts that undermine American democracy. Watch this. With 450 million FEMA dollars being reallocated to open alligator Alcatraz and 600 million taxpayer FEMA dollars being used to now open more concentration camps and ice burning through, $8.4 million a day to illegally detain people. How much does it cost for fascism? How much do the taxpayers have to pay for a fascist country?

[MSNBC Announcer]

Americans went to the polls in November and they had a choice between a Democratic candidate that had an open border, no enforcement, fentanyl drugs, human trafficking, and they had a choice between that and a candidate that said, close the border, get illegal immigrants out of our country.

[Nicole Wallace]

It is notable that the Congressman held an in person town hall meeting at all after facing a tough one back in May and after leaders of his party advised Republicans against holding town hall meetings. But what we saw is symptomatic of a larger dynamic all across the country, that the party in power, the Republican Party and the president who leads it, Donald Trump, are deeply, deeply unpopular in deep red parts of the country. What we saw could be a harbinger for next year's midterm elections. Here's how Flood's town hall meeting ended.

[MSNBC Announcer]

It is an honor to serve you and a privilege to serve you in the United States Congress. Thank you very much and have a safe drive home.

[Nicole Wallace]

It's where we start the hour with some of our favorite experts and friends. Host of the Fast Politics podcast, Vanity Fair special correspondent MSNBC political analyst Molly Jongpast is here. Also joining us, MSNBC senior political analyst Matt Dowd is here. And lucky for us, the president of Media Matters for America, Angelo Caracson, is still with us. Matt Dowd, I start with you because I feel like you and I have sat at this uncomfortable corner between trying to understand public opinion that exists and in a campaign context, trying to move public opinion around where it could be moved. It feels like Trump and the Republicans have entered a cul de sac. And where public opinion exists is that the voters have woken up to not all of them, but a lot of voters have woken up to the fact that Donald Trump's doge cuts are bad for everyone, including veterans, that Donald Trump's big beautiful bill kicks a whole bunch of people off of Medicaid and hurts a whole bunch of people and that the Epstein conspiracy theory was peddled for political gain and there's no plan to be transparent about it. You pick up those three things loud and clear from this town hall. They are known by the voters. They are known by Republican voters. And it's, it feels like it will be very difficult for Republicans to put the toothpaste back in the tube. What do you, what do you hear from watching these town halls?

[Chris Hayes]

Well, you know, I'm always a believer, you know, that anecdotes are interesting and fun and a town hall is an anecdote and it by itself, I would say, oh, the town hall is a bunch of people showed up and were mad. But the anecdote matters when it's combined with data. And so the town halls that we're seeing that the Republicans are having to face with all of this anger is a reflection of all of the public opinion polls and all of the public opinion polls show Donald Trump the most unpopular president at this point in time in his history. The Republican Party is unpopular and in fact, that they took an unpopular president with an unpopular party and then pushed an unpopular bill, a highly unpopular bill. What did they think was going to happen when they did that? And that's what the fascinating thing about this and so the outcome of all of that is these town halls and the Republicans that do, God bless them for doing, for holding a town hall in the midst of this, they're holding these town halls and they're seeing the reflection of where the public is on this. The other thing I think that a town hall shows and to me it reminds me a little of what happened in 2010, where there was a lot of town halls that showed up at Democrat in Democratic districts with Democratic politicians that began to reflect and, and you basically understood what was about to happen in November of that year, which was a horrible election for Democrats in 2010, and they lost the House in that election. That's what we're beginning to see in the, the piece of data I think a town hall can tell you about is enthusiasm. And what I think all of the things you mentioned ice the bill, everything that's happened and now Epstein is, it's, all of it is a deflating mechanism for the Republican Party and an inflating mechanism for the Democratic Party in the course of this. And there we see a town hall that basically shows all of that in spades.

[Nicole Wallace]

Matt, what do you, I agree with you about and I think what's so precious when you hear voters in their own words confronting the people that they may have voted for. I mean, at the Grassley town hall meetings, they were calling him Chuck. I mean, he's represented some of his constituents for decades. They were confronting him about Kilmart, Abrego, Garcia, and they seem to not believe his stories around immigration. When you hear the voters in their own words talking about their discontent with the overreaches of ice, when you hear them talking about the cuts to the government and services and when you hear them talking about the Epstein scandals, do you hear a bigger do you hear sort of like a breaking off of the coalition or do you hear members within the coalition simply expressing discontent?

[Chris Hayes]

Well, it's a great question. And I think what I'm hearing is how far ahead voters are from their politicians and how far ahead Democratic average voters are ahead of many of the Democratic elected officials. In the course of this, Democratic elected officials have started figuring out and I know we'll have this we'll talk about this topic in a bit about the redistricting in Texas are starting to catch up to where voters are. But that to me is what we're seeing. I mean, we've seen this before. You and I have seen this in the midst of campaigns where you can be tepid in the midst of a campaign or a politician be contempt and then they figure out how far voters are ahead of them and then they have to run and catch up to where voters are. I don't think there's any division in the Democratic Party right now within among the millions of millions of Democratic voters. They oppose all of everything that Donald Trump does. They can't stand all the stuff that happened to ice. They're upset about the Epstein stuff. They're upset about what the judiciary branch has been doing. They're upset about all of it. What the Democratic part, what the Democratic voters are also upset about, is why haven't more Democratic politicians stood in the breach and felt the same emotional way they do. And that sort of division, there's not a division among voters. There's a division between voters and some Democratic politicians.

[Nicole Wallace]

Let me ask you this then, Matt, and then I want to open it up to the others. I mean, do you think when you look at the record low approv rating for the Democratic Party, that it's Democrats who are not happy with the lack of fight among Democratic leaders that are making those numbers so high?

[Chris Hayes]

I was going to mention that. Thank you for asking, 35% of Democrats disapprove of the Democratic Party. Think about that. 35% of Democrats and the reason why, when they ask them follow up questions is because they're not standing firm and tall enough in the moment that we're in. They believe that we're in the midst of authoritarianism. They believe that Donald Trump is acting like a dictator. They believe their lives are going to be worsened in the, because of the policies in the course of this. And they don't understand why so many Democratic elected officials can't see what they see and aren't doing enough to stop it.

[Nicole Wallace]

Let me ask you this. You've got Charlamagne, the God making this point. He's on his, he's attacked by Trump yesterday. Trump certainly has the ability to harass him or sic the IRS on him or do, I mean he's, he's, he's deployed authoritarian tactics to all sorts of high profile people. Jim Comey and Andy McCabe have been subjected to incredibly invasive audits. We don't know for sure that Donald Trump was involved, but he was president at the time. You've got Bruce Springsteen standing up using his platform. You've got a smattering of people standing up to him and you can count Cory Booker and those numbers and Chris Murphy, but not the whole of the Democratic Party. Do you think this is a moment where culture is going to lead politics or do you think there's a different economic explanation for why Democrats aren't the tip of the spear and fighting back against Donald Trump?

[Chris Hayes]

Well, if you look at our history, culture has almost always led politics. It's always been the artists and the people that are involved in a cultural way, writers that have led us to where it's what led the civil rights movement. The civil rights movement was led for a long period of time by faith people and people of culture, long before politicians got on board and said we need to do something about this. And so I think we're in that moment. But I think actually the culture and the artists and all the writers and all the people that are in that are actually more in tune with the voters than many of the politicians who go seek the voters vote. They're much more in tune with where we are. The people that write songs, the people that speak out at different places, they are way more in tune with the average voter than many of the politicians are.

[Nicole Wallace]

Molly, John, Fast, Annie Carney was covering this town hall meeting and she posted this on X quote, I've never seen a crowd like this for a town hall for a house member line snaking around for blocks for Representative Flood. Looks like a presidential campaign event. Again, you know, we spent years talking about how many people go to Trump rallies. At least as much attention due to the people going to Republican town halls six months in to Trump 2.0. Yeah.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

You know, it's funny. I was talking to James Talarico from my podcast, the Texas State Houseman, and he's actually mulling a Senate run. And what I thought was interesting was he said he had a town hall and he couldn't believe how many people were there. And then I saw this reporting from Annie, and I wondered if we are in a moment where the mainstream media is so small and there's so little report reporting that it's possible that we don't have the full picture of just how angry voters are. And I actually was thinking about that because, you know, I traveled a bunch for my book, and I would go and do this. You know, my book is about dementia. It's not about, you know, politics. But people would come to me and they would talk. You know, they'd want to talk about how furious they were at Democratic leadership. And I just wonder if that's the story. We're not totally getting, that if there is this really. A bunch of really, really, really angry voters, like what we saw in these clips. And I do think, you know, when you see Flood, it's very hard to defend. Right. I mean, what's he saying? Well, we're growing the deficit by $4 trillion. We're cutting food stamps and Medicaid, and also we're doing it because we want to have a tax cut for very wealthy people. I mean, I just don't know how they thought they were going to message that as a popular thing. And, I mean, it sort of shows the kind of cognitive dissonance that this party is in right now, that they are both trying to sell a message and also trying desperately to redistrict because they know this dog won't hunt.

[Nicole Wallace]

Angela, let me show you more of the Flood town hall. This is an attendee talking about his complaint, US A Day.

[MSNBC Announcer]

There's a saying that silence is complicity. Your silence tells us that you have no problem with the January 6th attack on the Capitol, the pardoning of all those involved, the big lie about the 2020 election with absolutely no evidence. These are all markers. These are markers of fascism. I have read a dozen or so books on authoritarian fascism. You said in Seward that you were not a fascist. Your complicity says otherwise. Have you ever. Have you ever spoken out against this administration and its Project 2025, which is a fascist machine? What is wrong with you? What is Wrong with you. Fascists don't hold town halls with open question and answer series.

[Nicole Wallace]

I know something from my own time in government and politics. Process doesn't address substance. Right. So he's correct that he is holding a town hall, but that's a process answer to a substantive question, not just about the Trump policies. I mean, he had a point in terms of what people voted for in November when it came to the border. But what people are responding to with rage is fecklessness and weakness. Republicans have never been for tariffs before and they're now signing up for everything at Walmart being more expensive. Republicans have never been for impeaching judges who disagree with them before. Mitch McConnell was against that. Now they're all rolling over. What the Republicans don't seem to understand is they are underwater in part because of their own flaccid response to things that Trump does that they know are unpopular with their own. Own voters.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Yeah, I mean, that is, you know, a couple of things on that one. I mean, as he pointed out when.

[Claire McCaskill]

I would say fascism is theater. So holding town halls can definitely be.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

An example of it. But beyond that, you know, as you noted in the intro, his colleagues are not actually holding town halls. They are actually engaging in the very anti Democratic actions of small D that are the hallmarks of a burging authoritarian regime. They're trying to avoid engaging with the very people they're supposed to represent because they don't seem to care. And when the rules, or when it seems like they may lose politically, they start to take these other maneuvers like we're seeing in Texas, right, to, to avoid any of the consequences of what the public would actually want so that they can essentially rig the outcome in some way that they don't lose power. And ultimately, that's not about those individuals. It's about some of those people are willing to sacrifice their own, their own political futures so that Trump not just can stay in power, but that he can avoid any accountability or check on his power. And at its core, you know, and I think a lot of this is about the narrative. You know, you can talk to people in three ways. You can talk to their head, their heart, or their gut. And the majority of Democratic communications and messaging, when it exists, is often to people's heads. And so much of Republican messaging is to people's guts. And why it cuts against them in such a visceral, visceral way right now is that that when your relationship to the people that you build and organize power on is visceral. So the gut, it can lead to really positive outcomes like those long lines for Trump's rallies. They feel that connection. It makes them energetic and energized. It has the opposite effect too. When they're mad, when they're happy, it's great. When they're mad, it's very unpleasant as we're seeing at these town halls. And that is it is a feature of Republican communication and messaging, is that it's to the gut. But the consequence is that when you break that bond quickly, when you do the things that are opposite of what brand, what the impression, the vibe is, you get a powerful visceral reaction in the opposite direction. And then more broadly, you know, a lot of people are going to ignore the day to day policy things of Trump or they don't know all the nuance of it. But the effect of this, the cumulative effect is unclear. Something unsettling and uncomfortable is happening and Democrats aren't doing enough and people at least want to hold on to that onto a chance that there could be some accountability.

[Nicole Wallace]

I have to sneak at a break. I want to come back and follow up with all of you about how Democrats rewire their bond to voters from the head to the gut because that feels like the $64 million question. No one goes anywhere. We have much more to show you from voters around the country speaking out in their town hall meetings against Donald Trump and his policies. Also had Donald Trump says he's quote, entitled somehow to five more members of Congress from Texas and he might not stop there. 1. That's ridiculous. We'll ask what Democrats name nationwide are doing and can do to push back against Trump's attempt to rig the midterms. Texas State Representative James Tallarico will join us here later in the hour. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. We're back with Molly, Matt and Angelo. Angelo, I want to show you this from a town hall in Wisconsin. This is Representative Brian style. I don't think you, you're the right fit for us anymore. I just think it's time to go. You just don't relate to most of us anymore. And you got to know when step down. I think it's time.

[MSNBC Announcer]

I've been a resident of Walworth county for 13 years and I have to tell you, I am so disappointed.

[Nicole Wallace]

I.

[MSNBC Announcer]

Am so disappointed in how you represent us as the citizen of Walworth County. Southeast Wisconsin has not been represented by you. President Trump seems to run southeast Wisconsin through you.

[Nicole Wallace]

Angela. Again, this is about weakness. This is about viewing Republicans as weak. As under the command and control of Donald Trump and not responsive to their voters anymore. Yeah.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

And I would, I went to law school, Wisconsin. So I was really appreciated listening to that because it's hard to emphasize that those statements that seemed anger than the flood, even though the flood, even though it didn't seem that way. I mean, a Wisconsin person telling you they're disappointed is like so devastating for that, for that elected official.

[Nicole Wallace]

Because there is an expectation, you know.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

And it's just, wow. Like, I mean, I mean, that is, I mean, that's intense. And it's, it's because it is authentic. They're not mad about a specific policy. It's a feeling, and it's a feeling that there's a total capitulation to Trump. And the point that I would just take away is that, you know, we were told stories throughout our lives. You know, there is three branches of government and they're co. Equal and checks and balances. Everybody knows that. And they have all these disagreements, but there's a couple of things that make us all American. And yeah, a bunch of us have gone away and gone awry. And that's why it's anti Democratic. It's why they're pushing ahead with deeply unpopular policies. They always knew no one liked Project 2025. They still implemented 40% of it already so far. They knew there was going to be backlash and unpopularity. They don't care, but people care. And when you abdicate your responsibility as an elected official, I mean, they're doing it so brazenly. It's not just that they're, they're toeing the line. There's a lot of leeway. People expect Republicans to support Republicans and vice versa, but they don't expect the entire branch of government to subjugate itself to, to the president in a way that is so, so obvious and also detrimental to their own local needs. And I think that is what that, to me illustrated there is that they're not mad about a specific policy thing. It's that they, they're mad and disappointed that somehow the story is being broken, that they're giving up on just being a branch of government and in effect, on representing them.

[Nicole Wallace]

Molly, I want to come back to your point about us, the media, missing the anger out there. This is from someone that we sort of COVID as part of the manosphere, podcaster Andrew Schultz. It's a Daily Beast report because it was an Instagram story that isn't available anymore, but I'll read you the Daily Beast story. Schultz and his wife became parents in 2023 using IVF, a topic discussed in his recent Netflix special, Life on his Instagram account. On Sunday, Schultz reposted that day's Washington Post article about Donald Trump backing down on a promise to require health insurers to provide coverage for IVF services. The comedian added the caption, you don't break your word. Your word breaks you. In a follow up post, he slammed Trump, saying, donald Trump flip flopped once again on a campaign promise. I've watched his special. I mean, it's a little too PG13 rated to play here, but, you know, the whole thing is, you know, he's in the hospital, his wife's giving birth. I mean, in his support of Trump in 2024 had a measurable benefit to Donald Trump. He's broken with him on Epstein on IVF now and seems to be emboldened in a way that elected Republicans. I can't imagine ever being. I mean, just say more about your earlier point about folks who are more in touch with where the country really is.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

So I think there are two different groups here that are turning on Trump. And the manosphere is really part of the Trump base. Those are the younger people, the lower frequency, the ones and twos, the people that Trump got out, the hickory hidden Trump voter, for lack of a better word. They came out in 2016 because Trump made promises to them. They came out again, baffling late in 2020 because Donald Trump said he was gonna lower prices. And he also said no. He had a bunch of campaign promises that were like, no tax on tips. I'm gonna pay for ivf. I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that. But the big thing was he was gonna make things cheaper. And I think you have that crew, those manosphere guys, those sort of, they are, you know, they're low frequency voters. They're not Democrats, they're not Republicans. That base is very invested in Epstein.

[Nicole Wallace]

Right.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

And having the Epstein files, they're furious that none of that's getting released. And then they're also very invested in some of those campaign promises. But, and I think that, you know, we spend a lot of time talking about things that Trump does that are perhaps beyond the pale. But it's, it really matters when it's these people because these, you'll remember Tony Fabrizio, Trump's pollster, says that like about 10% of his people are sort of qanon curious. So that's a lot. That's a large margin. And you can see a way in which that, you know, that is a big percentage of his base.

[Nicole Wallace]

Matt Dowd, get back to what Democrats can take from all of this and how they can rewire their connection to their supporters, voters and their voters for some of the swing voters, from a message to the head to a message to the gut.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah. And as you know, I co wrote a book about this very topic after the 2004 race that we did together called Applebee's America, where a huge part of it was all about this idea of gut and heart connection versus head connection. In this. I don't get why Democrats don't get it completely. Some do. Aoc, I think, gets it. Gretchen Whitmer gets it. Governor Pritzker gets it. There's a number that get it, but so many don't. And then when they don't get it, they constantly keep thinking they'll say, I gave this person the 10 logical points of why they shouldn't. And I just can't convince them. I gave this person these five points, these five bullet points, and I just can't convince them in the course of this. And they don't understand that people establish a heart or gut connection first and then they want something for their head to sort of fill in the blanks once the heart and gut connection is. But the successful politicians in the last hundred years, and it's Democrat or Republican, have all seemed to understood this at the presidential level. Bill Clinton could be as intellectual as anybody, but he understood that he had to have. He had to relate to people. He had to be where they were. He had to sort of connect with them. He had to be seen as understanding where they were in this. Barack Obama had a heart connection with a number of voters. LBJ had a heart connection and a cultural connection with people. And when you don't understand that, when you don't understand that and get that from a communication standpoint, you misread that. Policies they think are unpopular are actually popular just not being communicated and connected well to people. For example, progressive policies, by and large are very popular in this country, exceedingly popular. But you have a segment of the Democratic Party that keeps trying to convince progressives were losing elections because their policies need to be more moderated. Nothing could be further from the truth. What they need to be is the moderates of the Democratic Party have to understand that the way to communicate is a, is the way at people's heart or gut level and whether it's progressive or not. And the Democratic candidate for mayor of New York is a perfect example of that. He's I in my view he's going to win. And all these sort of other Democrats saying, I'm worried, I'm worried about his progressive policies, policies. His progressive policies are supported by 70% of the voters of New York City. So policy, progressive policy is not the problem. It's the communications to people's heart and guts that's the problem.

[Nicole Wallace]

That feels like something worthy of much more in depth conversation. So we'll pick that up again. Molly and Matt, stick around a little bit longer. Angela, thank you for spending the two hours with us. We are grateful to you. When we come back, Democrats are promising to fight fire with fire as Donald Trump claims he's somehow entitled to five more Republican congressional seats from the state of Texas. One of the Texas Democrats leading the fight against that, against Donald Trump's power grab will be our next guest. State Representative James Talarico will be here after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

[Chris Hayes]

We should have many more seats in.

[James Talarico]

Congress and we have an opportunity in.

[MSNBC Announcer]

Texas to pick up five seats.

[James Talarico]

We have a really good governor and we have good people in Texas. And I won Texas.

[Chris Hayes]

I got the highest vote in the.

[James Talarico]

History of Texas, as you probably know. And we are entitled to five more seats.

[Nicole Wallace]

You can always count on Donald Trump to eventually give away the game, saying that Texas should disenfranchise millions of voters because why try to win over voters when you can just rig the map instead? Democratic Texas lawmakers have left the state of Texas to prevent that from happening, to prevent the new maps being drawn at Trump's urging from being passed, leading Texas Governor Greg Abbott to order their arrest. The Texas Legislature attempted to gavel into session today, but did not have the quorum necessary to reconvene. The legislature will reconvene Friday, August 8th. That is the date that Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton set for the lawmakers to return or he will attempt to have the courts declare their seats vacant. Lawmakers have pledged to stay out of the state until the session expires on August 19th. In the last hour, Governor Abbott told Fox News that state law enforcement was in the process of tracking down Democratic lawmakers. Take a look.

[MSNBC Announcer]

As we're talking right now, Texas Department of Public Safety officers are on the streets looking for those Democrat House members.

[Nicole Wallace]

To arrest them and to take them.

[MSNBC Announcer]

To the Texas Capitol and hold them there until a quorum is reached.

[Nicole Wallace]

What better way to prove the point that Democrats are making than that? Joining our coverage is Texas State Representative James Talarico. Thank you so much for coming back and talking to us.

[James Talarico]

Thanks for having me back.

[Nicole Wallace]

Tell me your understanding of what happens now with the threats of arrest levied and publicized. What's the plan?

[James Talarico]

Well, like you said, they are being consistent because with these rigged maps, they are trying to rob Texans of the ability to select the representatives of their choice, the most fundamental part of our representative democracy. And now they are threatening to literally remove. Remove elected officials from their positions, remove the people's representatives from those positions of public trust. This is a page out of an authoritarian playbook that we've seen in other countries, and it should be alarming to all of us, not just Democrats, but independents and Republicans, too.

[Nicole Wallace]

Representative, what is the plan for Democrats? How do you hold the line?

[James Talarico]

Well, we've all committed. There are 57 of us that have committed to staying out of the state Capitol until the end of this special legislative session. That's two weeks from now. And that way we can kill these corrupt maps and stop this sham process. We're trying not to get too caught up in hypotheticals. We don't know what will happen after that. Governor Abbott could call us back for another special session. These blue states with a Democratic trifecta may try to retaliate, and some of them are moving forward in that process. And there are also court challenges. So there are lots of things that could happen. But all of us have made that commitment to at least stay out of the Capitol for this special session and stop this power grab.

[Nicole Wallace]

What are you hearing from your constituents, from Texas voters?

[James Talarico]

I mean, the response has been overwhelming. Thanking me for fighting for our community, for fighting for free and fair elections across the state, across the country. And, Nicole, it's not just Democrats, Democrats. I've heard from some Republicans, too, who don't want this midterm election stolen. They know they may lose some seats because Donald Trump's popular policies have been pretty unpopular. But they do want the process to be fair. Texans don't like cheating, and that's why we have walked out of the special session. I think most folks know that at the beginning of the decade is when we adjust district lines after we get a new census. And the Republicans in Texas did that in 2021. But this is different. Trump is now asking them to redraw those maps in the middle of the decade because he's worried about losing his majority. It's like two football teams coming out of the locker room at halftime. The team that's ahead says, we want to change the rules for the second half so that we can win the game. All of us would recognize that as blatant Cheating. And if they're going to cheat, we're not going to play.

[Nicole Wallace]

What would you like states like California to do?

[James Talarico]

Well, this is a tricky strategic and moral question because I believe we need to get gerrymandering out of every state. Politicians shouldn't be choosing their voters. Voters should be choosing their politicians. And it's why I filed a bill in Texas to create an independent, citizen led redistricting commission in our state. That bill hasn't even gotten a hearing. But if one side cheats, the other side has to respond. If one side cheats, all bets are off. And I don't think Democrats should unilaterally disarm. I remember growing up when there was a bully on the playground. I learned that you have to look that bully in the eye and not blink. If you lay down and play dead, it's not going to work. And the reason you look them in the eye is because bullies are weaker than you think. And that is true here too. And I'm hopeful that with these blue states responding and with Texans and Americans rising up because of the spotlight we've shined on this power grab, we're going to see them reverse course or pay consequences at the ballot box.

[Nicole Wallace]

You were just on with Joe Rogan who said you should, quote, run for president because you're a good person. Have you asked for his help in raising public awareness? I mean, in the minority, that's really, I assume your best tool is the public's resistance to this power grab in Texas. Have you asked, asked to come back on and make your case against the Texas maps?

[James Talarico]

I haven't, but hopefully when I get to go home. I'd love to join his podcast, but we have had so much attention, again, not just from Democratic or left leaning outlets, but even from right leaning outlets. And I think that spotlight is putting a lot of pressure on my Republican colleagues back home, which is is necessary because if this power grab succeeds, it'll be a fundamental disruption to our representative democracy and that should be unacceptable to all of us, regardless of our political affiliation.

[Nicole Wallace]

Texas State Representative James Talleriko, please keep us posted on how your efforts go. Thank you very much for joining us today to talk about it.

[James Talarico]

Thanks, Nicole.

[Nicole Wallace]

We're going to bring our panel back into our coverage after a very short, short break. Don't go anywhere. We're back with Molly and Matt. Matt, I don't know if people appreciate how tense things could get for these Texas Democratic lawmakers. This is what John Cornyn has asked Cash Patel to do. Quote, this is a letter From Senator John Cornyn of Texas to FBI Director Cash Patel, quote, out of state actors have made public comments about protecting the Texas legislators who are currently hiding out of of state from any accountability for their actions. I request the FBI's assistance as federal resources are necessary to locate the out of state Texas legislators who are potentially acting in violation of the law. The FBI has tools to aid state law enforcement when parties cross state lines, including to avoid testifying or fleeing the scene of the crime. If only they were that interested in the men who move young girls across state lines in the Jeffrey Epstein investigation. I mean, the hypocrisy and the politics here are not just insanely hypocritical, but potentially dangerous.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah, reading that statement is incredibly dangerous and scary actually. I mean the problem is that for Texas and I've been very involved in redistricting. The last time Democrats had the redistricting hand in 1991, I was very involved in it in the course of this, that there's not a criminal, this is not an act act, a criminal act that they're doing. It's. There's a civil penalty that they're four or five hundred dollars a day, I think that they're subject to that they'll have to pay. But there's no criminal act. So I don't know how he thinks the FBI can get involved when no criminal statute, especially even a state statute has been broken in a criminal way. One thing I would like to say that, that I think people need to understand of how bad this map is that they're drawing. In Texas, 60% of the population population is non white and for less than 40% is white. In the course of the population, 25% of the population of Texas are Republican white voters. 25%. They want to draw maps that give Republican white elected officials 75% of the seats. Think about that. They want to draw a map that gives 75% of the seats to 25% of the population of the state while 60% of the population is non white in this. And so not only this is undemocratic and not only goes against the sort of good government's idea that we need is it's incredibly racist in the courses and it, and as the representative said, it delegitimizes and takes away the right of vote of so many voters in this state. When you give the advantage to Republicans in such a stunning stark way that you left it with voters completely unrepresented.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, Molly, that's what the Voting Rights act, that's what the Justice Department. That's what the Supreme Court used to be charged with protecting. This is what it looks like when all those players are off the field.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Yeah. I also want to add that I think what's happening here, which is really important to remember, is that Cornyn is worried about a primary challenge from Ken Paxton. And so he's sort of trying to out MAGA him. And part of why the Texas legislature looks, is acting, is behaving so badly in such an anti democratic way is partially because they want, they're sort of competing for Donald Trump's endorsement. And so Cornyn, who is generally thought to be a little less, I want to say, a little closer to operating in our normal democratic system, is now in a sort of primary race against MAGA to win Donald Trump's endorsement. So that is, I think, part of why we're seeing this pageantry. And I do think it's pageantry because as we said before, as Matt was saying before, there is not, there's no there there. I mean, it's not what they're doing is not illegal. What is good is that you, they are really organized and they're, you know, they are doing exactly sort of, they know what they need to do in order to stay out of Texas and in order to, to shut down the legislature right now. And they're doing it.

[Nicole Wallace]

We'll stay on top of it. Molly darn Fast and Matt Dow, thank you for spending the hour with us. One more break. We'll be right back.

[Chris Hayes]

Here's the bottom line. The American people are being lied to by this administration about who they are going after and why. And how.

[James Talarico]

And all you got to do is.

[Chris Hayes]

Open both of your eyes and watch.

[James Talarico]

Television, listen to your broadcast and you.

[Chris Hayes]

Realize that these are families. These are fathers and daughters and mothers and sons and all of it who are caught in the middle of this. Not not only and not primarily the.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Worst of the worst.

[Nicole Wallace]

That was MSNBC senior national and political correspondent Jacob Soboroff. He is my guest on this week's episode of the Best People podcast, fresh from his exclusive interview with Narciso Barranco, the father of three U.S. marines whose detention by ICE agents in southern California sparked national outrage and condemnation. My conversation with Jacob at his powerful interview with Mr. Barranco are part of the podcast. They're available now on YouTube. Just scan the QR code on your screen or download this week's episode. Wherever you get your podcasts, one more break for us. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes. We are grateful.