“Halligan was unlawfully appointed”

Summary

Podcast Summary: Deadline: White House

Episode: “Halligan was unlawfully appointed”
Date: November 24, 2025
Host: Nicolle Wallace
Main Guests: Carol Leonnig, Michael Feinberg, Claire McCaskill, General Mark Hertling, Jen Psaki

Overview

This episode of Deadline: White House centers on the explosive dismissal of criminal cases against former FBI Director Jim Comey and New York Attorney General Letitia James. The court found that prosecutor Lindsay Halligan, who brought the charges at Trump’s direction, was unlawfully appointed—a blow to Trump’s perceived attempts to politicize the Justice Department. The panel analyzes the ruling’s legal basis, broader themes of rule of law, the judiciary’s precarious role, and Trump administration efforts to target political opponents, including new investigations into Senator Mark Kelly. The episode ultimately questions whether the public, legal community, and the Republican Party are “awakening” to the erosion of institutional norms.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Dismissal of Cases Against Comey and James

[01:08–03:50]

• Judge Cameron Curry dismissed criminal charges against Comey and Tish James, ruling that special prosecutor Lindsay Halligan was “unlawfully serving in that role.”
• Halligan was appointed after former acting U.S. Attorney Eric Siebert refused Trump’s directives and was terminated. Halligan’s subsequent actions were deemed constitutionally invalid.
• Efforts to retroactively legitimize Halligan’s standing (like naming her special attorney) were rejected.
  • Quote:
    “This case presents the unique, if not unprecedented, situation where an unconstitutionally appointed prosecutor... acted alone in conducting a grand jury proceeding and securing an indictment.” — Judge Cameron Curry [01:50]
• Charges were dismissed without prejudice, but in Comey's case, the statute of limitations has expired.
• Comey’s legal team argues he cannot be re-indicted due to this expiration.

2. Reactions from Comey and Tish James’ Attorney

[04:56–06:12]

• Comey hails the outcome as a “win for the rule of law,” emphasizing the need for an independent judiciary.
  • Quote:
    “A message has to be sent that the President... cannot use the Department of Justice to target his political enemies... you have to see that as fundamentally un-American and a threat to the rule of law.” — Jim Comey [05:40]
• Tish James’ lawyer, Abby Lowell, highlights the court’s recognition that the prosecutions were political, not legal.
  • Quote:
    “The president went to extreme measures to substitute one of his allies to bring these baseless charges after career prosecutors refused.” — Abby Lowell (statement read by Wallace) [03:35]

3. Weaponization of the Justice Department & Norm Erosion

[06:12–14:29]

• The panel (Carol Leonnig, Michael Feinberg, Claire McCaskill) dissects Trump’s “obsession” with using the DOJ against enemies.
• Comey is lauded for championing the rule of law, with panelists noting that even Trump-appointed judges are rebuffing the conduct.
• Carol Leonnig draws a historical parallel to the “wrecking ball” Trump took to DOJ norms (“malevolence and incompetence”), referencing her book Injustice.
• Discussion of the lack of mobilization from big law firms in Trump’s second term, contrasting with the first.
  • Quote:
    “Big law has chosen big partner bonuses… over the risk of toying and tangoing with Donald Trump in Trump 2.0.” — Carol Leonnig [12:14]
  • Eric Holder is cited: “America is slow to rouse, but when she does… watch out.” [13:09]

4. Consequences for Prosecutors and Accountability

[16:31–19:54]

• Trump’s team (Halligan, AG Pam Bondi) may face disciplinary actions for their roles in unlawful prosecutions.
  • Quote:
    “There's no way that any seasoned prosecutor could say this was done according to Hoyle.” — General Mark Hertling, quoting Ty Cobb [16:58]
• Leonnig warns lawyers that serving Trump for political errands spells professional danger—unpaid bills, reputation damage, and possible bar sanctions.
• DOJ described as in chaos—no clear plan or communication in critical moments, unusual White House interference.
  • Quote:
    “The office was pretty much in chaos… The first person to register for DOJ that there might be a motion to appeal… was Carolyn Levitt from the White House. Very unusual.” — Carol Leonnig [17:42]

5. Reliance on the Judiciary; Implications for the Rule of Law

[22:35–29:02]

• Comey expresses faith in the “one remaining leg” of the three-legged stool of democracy: the courts.
  • Quote:
    “If you come into [judges’] courtroom, heaven help you if you're not telling the truth. That still exists in this country and should be a source of great comfort.” — Jim Comey [23:12]
• Wallace and panelists warn it’s abnormal for democracy to lean so heavily on the judiciary, as Republicans flirt with ignoring court rulings.
  • Quote:
    “A stool cannot stand on just one leg. That's a matter of math, a matter of physics. But… the judiciary may in fact have been that bulwark that saved us.” — Jen Psaki [24:44]
• The panel contemplates public “awakening”: while some signs exist in recent election results and anecdotal outrage, a broad mobilization remains elusive.

6. Emerging Investigations Into Political Rivals – Focus on Mark Kelly

[33:23–39:38]

• Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth and the Pentagon launch an investigation into Sen. Mark Kelly and five Democrats who reminded military personnel to refuse illegal orders. Trump called the six “traitors” and said they “should be in jail.”
  • Quote:
    “Secretary Hegseth’s tweet is the first I heard of this. I also saw the president’s post saying I should be arrested, hanged, and put to death... I’ve given too much to this country to be silenced by bullies.” — Sen. Mark Kelly [34:10]
• General Mark Hertling explains that Kelly’s message echoes bedrock military law—service members must obey only legal orders.
  • Quote:
    “Illegal orders are those that violate the Constitution, federal statute, the Uniform Code of Military Justice... I'm confused. And as I'm sure Senator Kelly is.” — Gen. Mark Hertling [35:25]
• The Pentagon’s response is seen as intimidation, not legal process.

7. Moral Reckoning: Republican Silence & Political Violence

[39:38–43:31]

• The Trump administration’s rhetoric and investigation threats have sparked new security threats against political opponents, including Kelly and his wife, Gabby Giffords (herself a shooting survivor).
  • Quote:
    “As the husband of Congresswoman Gabby Giffords, I understand what political violence is… [Trump] should understand that his words have serious, serious consequences.” — Sen. Mark Kelly [40:11]
• Wallace and Hertling decry a lack of Republican response—even after Trump alluded to executing sitting members of Congress.
  • Quote:
    “We're in a time, Nicole, of moral injury and moral cowardice, a lack of ability to really see what our values and our ethos are…” — Gen. Mark Hertling [41:48]
• The show interrogates what this means for democracy and the willingness of Republican officials to push back.

8. Wider Political Context: Cracks in Trump’s Republican Support

[25:49–27:16, 28:27–31:35]

• Marjorie Taylor Greene’s exit and dissatisfaction among Armed Services Committee members hint at some GOP fracturing.
• Yet, panelists express skepticism over whether this translates to tangible opposition or is mere grumbling in the face of electoral consequences.
  • Quote:
    “They're going to keep trying to blow past the guardrails of the law… but I don't think it's going to work. I do think the judges will hold…” — Political Analyst (Claire McCaskill) [27:15]
• Carol Leonnig underscores public anxiety, noting anecdotally that many Americans compare the times to pre-fascist 1930s Europe.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Rule of Law:
  “Big law has chosen big partner bonuses… over the risk of toying and tangoing with Donald Trump in Trump 2.0.”
  — Carol Leonnig [12:14]

• Comey’s Rallying Call:
  “It's time to stand up and show the fools who would frighten us… that we're made of stronger stuff, that we believe in the rule of law, that we believe in the importance of doing things by the law. So stand tall, shine, and keep the faith.”
  — Jim Comey [06:52]

• On Imposing on the Judiciary:
  “A stool cannot stand on just one leg… but the judiciary may in fact have been that bulwark that saved us.”
  — Jen Psaki [24:44]

• On Moral Responsibility:
  “You stand up for someone who's being bullied. … That's what I think a lot of these people who are not standing up for the moral right are experiencing right now.”
  — Gen. Mark Hertling [43:08]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:08] — Main story: Judge dismisses Trump’s prosecution of Comey & James
• [04:56] — Comey’s Instagram statement, rule of law warning
• [06:12] — Panel: Legal and political analysis
• [11:15] — Big law’s changing role, “malevolence and incompetence”
• [16:58] — Consequences for Halligan and Bondi—bar complaints
• [22:35] — Comey’s faith in the judiciary
• [33:23] — Pentagon initiates investigation into Sen. Mark Kelly
• [36:29] — Discussion: Trump's antagonism toward military honor
• [40:11] — Kelly on threats, Giffords and political violence
• [41:48] — Hertling’s reflection on moral cowardice in politics
• [43:31] — Preview: Maddow interview with Mark Kelly

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Conclusion

This episode provides a granular, insider’s look at the unraveling of Trump’s effort to use the DOJ as a political weapon, underscoring how courts, lawyers, and vestiges of institutional resistance have thus far stymied the worst abuses. Yet, the tone remains sober: the “one remaining leg” of democracy—the judiciary—is under immense strain, with questions lingering about whether other pillars (Congress, legal community) and the public will step up to reinforce bulwarks against creeping authoritarianism. Panelists call for renewed moral courage, both inside and outside government.

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This summary captures the central content, key quotes, tone, and flow of the episode, omitting all advertisements and peripheral material.

Transcript

[Jen Psaki]

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[Nicole Wallace]

Hi everyone. Happy Monday. It's 4 o' clock in New York. The wheels have come off Donald Trump's retribution campaign, at least temporarily. And this time, Donald Trump has only himself to blame. A judge today dismissed the criminal cases against two of Donald Trump's perceived political enemies, the former Director of the FBI, Jim Comey, and New York's Attorney General Letitia James. The the judge ruling that the prosecutor who brought the cases was improperly appointed Judge Cameron Curry, ruling that the interim U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia, one Lindsay Halligan, quote, has been unlawfully serving in that role, end quote. You may recall that the first Trump appointed acting U.S. attorney, Eric Siebert, was fired after he refused to bring the case against Jim Comey and Tish James. He believed that there was not enough evidence to charge them with crimes. So then Halligan was appointed 48 hours after that now infamous Truth Social post from Trump directing AG Pam Bondi, calling her Pam and calling for charges for Tish James, Comey and Senator Adam Schiff and demanding that Bondi put Halligan in place. Bondi complied and within days of Halligan's appointment, she took the Comey case and then the James case to a grand jury, presenting both of them herself. Halligan was appointed despite the fact that Siebert had already served the 120 day interim appointment that is allotted for any acting U.S. attorney. That's why the judge today is ruling this way that Halligan was unlawfully appointed. The judge writing this in his decision to dismiss the Comey case, quote, this case presents the unique, if not unprecedented situation where an unconstitutionally appointed prosecutor exercising power she did not lawfully possess, acted alone in conducting a grand jury proceeding and securing an indictment. The judge also didn't buy the Trump administration's belated after the fact attempt at cleanup by somehow retroactively naming Halligan a special attorney. He wrote this in his decision to dismiss the Tish James case. Quote, I reject the Attorney General's attempt to retroactively confer special attorney status on Ms. Halligan. Regardless of what the Attorney General intended or could have done. The fact remains that Ms. Halligan was not an attorney authorized by law to conduct grand jury proceedings when she secured Ms. James indictment. In other words, Donald Trump's own insistence to rush to prosecute Comey and Tish James turned out to be his prosecutor's undoing it. In a statement, Tish James attorney Abby Lowell says this, quote, the court's order acknowledges what has been clear about this case from the beginning. The president went to extreme measures to substitute one of his allies to bring these baseless charges after career prosecutors refused. This case was not about justice or the law. It was about targeting Attorney General James for what she stood for and who she challenged. We will continue to challenge any further politically motivated charges through every lawful means available. The charges were dismissed without prejudice, meaning that they could be refiled by someone else or somewhere else. But in the Comey case, the statute of limitations expired in September, and that is why all those posts from Trump came. It's why Halligan was put there and rushed in to charge Comey in the first place. Comey's attorneys have said that they plan to argue that he cannot be re indicted because the statute of limitations has now run out. In a video posted to Instagram, Comey says this dismissal is nothing short of a win for the rule of law. Watch.

[Jim Comey]

I'm grateful that the court ended the case against me, which was a prosecution based on malevolence and incompetence and a reflection of what the Department of Justice has become under Donald Trump, which is heartbreaking. But I was also inspired by the example of the career people who refused to be part of this travesty. It cost some of them their jobs, which is painful, but it preserved their integrity, which is beyond price. And I know they will serve again. I was very lucky that some of the best lawyers in America stepped forward to represent me. I hope they serve as an example to more and more lawyers, especially at some of the big firms, to participate in protecting our liberty, protecting the rule of law. And my family and friends were always with me, and luckily for me, include some of those great lawyers. This case mattered to me personally, obviously. But it matters most because a message has to be sent that the President of the United States cannot use the Department of Justice to target his political enemies. I don't care what your politics are. You have to see that as fundamentally un American and a threat to the rule of law that keeps all of us free.

[Nicole Wallace]

A judge dismissing two cases that epitomized Donald Trump's obsession with weaponizing the Justice Department is where we start today. Senior investigative reporter Carol Lennig is here. She broke a lot of stories along this journey. We're so lucky that she's here today. Also joining us, former assistant special agent in charge at the FBI. Now a national security and intelligence analyst, Michael Feinberg joins us. He's also a fellow at Lawfare, and former senator and political analyst Claire McCaskill is here. Claire, let me you one more chunk of what Comey said about how he's under no illusion that this is the end of the road.

[Jim Comey]

I know that Donald Trump will probably come after me again, and my attitude's going to be the same. I'm innocent, I am not afraid. And I believe in an independent federal judiciary, the gift from our founders that protects us from a would be tyrant. When I was a kid, my parents would wake us up for school every morning by snapping open the shades and saying, time to rise and shine and show the world what you're made of. Well, it's that time, America. It's time to stand up and show the fools who would frighten us, who would divide us, that we're made of stronger stuff, that we believe in the rule of law, that we believe in the importance of doing things by the law. So stand tall, shine, and keep the faith.

[Nicole Wallace]

Claire. Quite a moment. It may be just a setback in Trump's eyes, but he has given Comey a voice and a seat at the table in championing the rule of law in America at this crucial moment, at a moment of incredible political weakness for Donald Trump.

[Political Analyst]

Yeah, you know, let me nerd out for a minute. This case was dismissed without prejudice, which means that it could be brought again. It's a little complicated, though, because the way this case came about, it came about right on the cusp of the statute of limitations running out. So the appeal could toll it. They could say there's a savings clause that tolls it. But at the end of the day, what this decision says is they're up to nonsense at the Department of Justice. And they're not following the law. I mean, if we can't have a Department of justice that knows what the law is and knows how to follow it, we're in real trouble here. And that's, in fact, what has happened here. They did not follow the law on the very basic premise of how you appoint a U.S. attorney.

[Nicole Wallace]

Carol Leonig, you just wrote a whole book on this. But Comey calls it the combination of malevolence and incompetence.

[Carol Leonnig]

And.

[Nicole Wallace]

And that is exactly the brand of Trump's Department of Justice. And I don't know if that's how Todd Blanche wanted his legacy to be written, but it is judges, some of them appointed by Donald Trump, who are writing that story.

[Carol Leonnig]

Absolutely, Nicole. And you know what I thought was really compelling about former FBI Director Comey's Instagram post or statement, I guess is the best way to put it. He sang out to different constituencies. One, the checks and balances of our tender democracy and the fact that he's hanging a lot of faith on the judicial system, the judiciary, rather than Congress or the executive. He also sang out to members of the Department of Justice and FBI family who saw their jobs and careers torn in half and shredded when they did not agree to follow the orders from Donald Trump to bring criminal charges against his enemies. I don't think Comey meant just against him, but against others that Donald Trump decided should face some sort of criminal penalty, despite career prosecutors repeatedly saying there's no case here, including with Letitia James, including with Senator Adam Schiff, where an investigation continues. And the third group he sh. He shouted out to were lawyers in Big Law. And it was almost a very polite scold of. I had some of the best lawyers step forward for me, and I think he means Pat Fitzgerald and Mike Dreben and some of his family members. But what about Big Law? Where are they in this moment when Jim Comey is snapping the shades and saying, rise and shine and show the world what you're made of? Our book, Injustice was about how the rule of law has had a wrecking ball taken to it by Donald Trump. And here's Jim Comey saying it's time for people to show up and do something about it.

[Nicole Wallace]

Carol, explain that more deeply to us, because this is opaque, I think, to a lot of people. But in Trump 1.0, I think it starts with the Muslim ban, right? Big law firms poured their most brilliant, brilliant, young and experienced attorneys into cases to protect people trapped up or sort of entangled in the arbitrary Muslim ban. And then they rewrote it when it was struck down. And sort of the best and the brightest rushed in to help people who were targeted by Donald Trump. This time it started with Paul Weiss, but that certainly wasn't the end of it. Law firm after law firm after law firm, some of the biggest and some of the firms that had done the most and best work in 1.0 capitulated in the earliest months. What is Comey calling out? What is the delta between how many people from private law helped in 1.0 and how many people have been sidelined in 2.0?

[Carol Leonnig]

I think what Comey is saying and what sources have said to me who are close to him is he's infuriated, as are many that are DOJ alums and FBI alums that big law has chosen big partner bonuses and huge, huge annual salaries and profit sharing over the risk of toying and tangoing with Donald Trump in Trump 2.0, the folding that began with Paul Weiss. And by the way, Paul Weiss folded, as I think many of your viewers know, when another law firm had just gotten an injunctive relief and had had a TRO issued to stop the same kind of executive order and penalty from being imposed by Donald Trump. And people around Comey and many others I've spoken to are just saying, why are you choosing what appears to be your bottom line instead of fighting for the rule of law? As one associate said so famously, and I believe this was a person at Scadden who went on to work for Abbey Lowell. She wrote a note to her partners and said, and I paraphrase here, Nicole, but, you know, it would be beneficial if you let your clients know that you actually believe in the law, because the law was on the side of these law firms. I think it's also, I want to take a little moment to say one other thing. I was at a event recently, a conference on journalism that ended up focusing a great deal on rule of law. A lot of literary giants and actually a lot of details, DOJ giants. And Eric Holder gave a speech where he said, you know, America is slow to rouse. And he essentially said, but when she does, when she is going to get angry about this attack on the rule of law, watch out. Again, I'm paraphrasing just a little bit, but America is slow to rouse is interesting to me because it's very similar to Comey's message now. He's saying he's, he's exhorting people it's time to do something. And as for opaque I am so glad you use that word, Nicole. The rule of law is not some academic phrase.

[Nicole Wallace]

I think we lost Carol Lennox. Michael Feinberg, can you hear me?

[Jen Psaki]

Yes, I can.

[Nicole Wallace]

We've got some gremlins. Pick this up, because you and I have talked about this on and off tv. You were an early voice really speaking out and fleshing out the story that I think watchers of the FBI and DOJ worried was happening. You know, you put a klieg light on it and underscored it. But this idea that Comey's calling out, I think former President Barack Obama called it out. He made a kind of comment about, you know, if you have to remodel the Hamptons house, you know, down the road because you have to forego some of those clients, it's worth it. Do you agree with Carol's assessment that people are awake and they're aware and they see all these signs of what Comey calls, quote, malevolence and incompetence inside Trump's doj?

[Jen Psaki]

I think we're getting there. I think that the rule of law is still in an incredibly precarious position in our country right now, and there is a tendency among Americans, and none of us are immune to it, to believe that we are sort of exempt from history and that what has happened in other countries where rule of law is deteriorated cannot happen here. I think the Trump administration has leaned a little bit too forward, and people are finally starting to see that there are real dangers down the road we are currently traveling on. But as Carol so ably pointed out, we need our institutions, like the big law firms, to stand up and do what's right. And I think it's still an open question whether they're going to forego their bottom line in order to do that.

[Nicole Wallace]

Carol, I hear that you are back. I want to come back to you. I want to show you. I mean, it goes beyond damage to the brand, a missed opportunity to aid the rule of law and protect American democracy. Donald Trump's former lawyer, Ty Cobb, thinks that there may be some exposure for everyone involved in this weaponization and politicization of the rule of law right now. Let me show you what he said.

[General Mark Hertling]

Well, I think Halligan and Bondi for sure could face disciplinary action because Bondi has twice affirmed the purported legitimacy of Halligan's grand jury presentation before the court. And, you know, those affirmations were false. There's no way that any seasoned prosecutor could say this was done, according to Hoyle. No way. And Halligan definitely.

[Nicole Wallace]

You can almost feel sort of a balloon being popped. There are consequences if you do something knowingly unlawful before judges and in a court of law.

[Carol Leonnig]

I think Ty's got a decent point. And there is certainly going to be a stream of lawyers willing pro bono to file and groups to file complaints to the bar associations where those individuals have their licenses. I think a really important warning for people is a warning that lawyers got in Trump 1.0, which was lawyers who agree to saddle up for Donald Trump's political errands end up not being paid, having their reputation in some question or under a shadow, and may face worse. And many, many lawyers that Donald Trump basically interviewed to represent him in the Mueller probe were shying away at the time because of that fear of that three pronged damage to their careers. And we'll see what happens with bar council referrals that are made. There are several that have already been made for other people. It is an issue. But I want to underline one other point that came from Comey, which that language, malevolence and incompetence. We don't know what motivated Lindsey Halligan. We know what motivated Donald Trump and made her the instrument for doing what he wanted done. But on the incompetence, it continues. We're hearing from sources inside the Department of Justice now that three hours went by before Lindsey Halligan or her first assistant were available to describe what their plan was. And that's just sort of surprising. A federal judge said last week, week, I'm going to probably rule next week. You would think your Department of Justice would kind of be ready for catching and receiving whatever they learned. But the office was pretty much in chaos because there was no communication. The first person to register for the Department of Justice that there might be a motion to appeal or in this case, stay. The judge's ruling was Carolyn Levitt from the White House. Very unusual.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, unusual is a diplomatic word for it. Totally inappropriate for the. This isn't the White House's case. Cases are brought by the Department of Justice. So unless the White House counsel was bringing a case, it isn't the White House press office's job to talk about her case. I want to bring Claire back in and press all of you on. I think what Michael and Claire are getting at, I mean, Carol are getting it. I think the Washington Post has reported that the justice department is down 5,000 lawyers. So this combination of malevolence and incompetence that Comey presented also scratches the surface at, I think, a bigger question of paralysis. We'll talk about that on the other side of a break. Also ahead for US Senator Mark Kelly finds himself under investigation now by the Trump administration. It comes after that video that he and other lawmakers made in which he simply reminds the men and women of the military that they should always only follow orders that are legal. It's an extraordinary step that Pete Hegseth has taken and it follows threats and directions from Trump over the weekend. Plus, he was once the face of Donald Trump's MAGA movement. Now Marjorie Taylor Greene is exiting and there are new signs of the power that Trump holds over some members of his party. Some of that power is in question later. Trump's new pressure campaign to put an end to Russia's aggression aimed squarely at Ukraine, a critical moment for the war. All those stories and more when Deadly in White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

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[Jen Psaki]

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[Nicole Wallace]

The American people are basically telling the.

[Carol Leonnig]

President that they are not okay with any of this.

[Jen Psaki]

Sign up for the Project 47 newsletter at Ms. Now Project 47.

[Nicole Wallace]

Do you worry that his people will not treat you fairly now that you're under scrutiny?

[Jim Comey]

Sure. But we live in a reality based world where people, if they're going to make accusations, have to make them in front of judges, have to put evidence forward, have to swear that things are true. I believe in our judiciary. I believe in that one remaining leg of our three legged stool, that independent judiciary is alive and well and gives me great comfort.

[Nicole Wallace]

Is that what you think will backstop whatever comes at you from the Trump Justice Department?

[Carol Leonnig]

Sure.

[Jim Comey]

I don't wouldn't expect anything to come at me from the shell business. But anything that did come at me, if I get more audits, more investigations. Yes, our saving grace, we still have a leg on our stool. If we Lose that. I don't know where we are, but we have judges appointed by all different presidents of different parties who believe in the rule of law. And if you come into their courtroom, heaven help you if you're not telling the truth. That still exists in this country and should be a source of great comfort.

[Nicole Wallace]

We're back with Carol Michael and Claire. Michael, I just don't want to normalize what he's saying there as anything sustainable or comforting. I mean, it is not normal that the, quote, one remaining leg of our three legged stool is the courts. That is an extraordinary pressure to place in the judiciary. You've got some people close to Trump, Steven Miller and others talking about whether or not they will abide by judges, but it is the case. And that was after they followed Jim and his wife, Patrice Comey home through multiple states after they posted a picture of seashells on the beach. So that wasn't what he ended up indicted for. But as he said today, they will come after him. He said today he'll probably come after me again. Your thoughts on, on all that we are putting on the judiciary today?

[Jen Psaki]

It's a lot. And to the extent I want to feel hope in it, I approach it a little bit different than former Director Comey. A stool cannot stand on just one leg. That is a matter of math, a matter of physics. But I think what we're seeing is, is at least some bulwark, maybe temporary, maybe small, I genuinely don't know. But some bulwark that is going to shore up the rule of law while hopefully what Eric Holder predicted that the rest of America rouses from its slumber occurs. And if the people who care about rule of law can make their case to the American people, and the American people realize how ridiculous it is that through some magic coincidence, every opponent of Donald Trump ends up getting indicted and they can realize how abnormal that is and start to demand change, then the judiciary may in fact have been that bulwark that saved us.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, I mean, Claire, the other piece of this is Trump's own political standing is not a fixed point in time. It is dynamic and it is descending. And I wonder what you think about all the calculations that all the Republican cowards have made that it's going to look good or it's going to be a good look to go before their voters, especially for senators having done nothing as Donald Trump, as Michael just said, sicced his Justice Department on his perceived political enemies.

[Political Analyst]

Yeah, there's definitely some cracks in the foundation as it relates to the Republican Party or The new Republican Party, the MAGA Republican Party. Marjorie Taylor Greene's resignation. Trump trying to tell everyone that the guy he said was a communist and should be a traitor and so forth, saying he's gonna be a great mayor for New York. You've got people who are really mad at the Trump White House also of the way they're being treated. The members of Congress. The Republican members of Congress have been treated with great disrespect by this administration. I'm not talking about Trump himself. I'm talking about the people around him. And I can tell you for a fact that the Republican members of the Armed Services Committee are not happy campers right now. They are very upset. And this will. Why don't they do something about Mark Kelly later?

[Nicole Wallace]

But why don't they do something? I mean, I've heard that they're unhappy for nine years.

[Political Analyst]

I agree. No, Well, I will tell you that I think some things will begin happening. And what really broke this open, in my opinion, is not that they've all of a sudden decided Donald Trump is a bad guy. It's because they got their, you know, what's kicked at the ballot box the first Tuesday in November and they see what's coming and the redistricting thing is blowing up on them. You've got, you know, now they are going to keep trying to blow past the guardrails of the law, whether it's in the military or in our court, because now they've taken the case down to Florida so they can get it in front of that joke that messed up the case on the records in his bathroom. So they're going to do every trick they can to bend the law to their will. And I don't think it's going to work. I do think the judges will hold, but I couldn't agree more with Michael. You can't go a stool can't stand on one leg, and we barely have two at this point. So we'll see what happens. But I am more optimistic today than I was six months ago.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, Carol, I mean, you and I had this conversation at the 92nd Street Y about, well, just about the lack of this being a fixed thing. The fact that it is more like an ekg, right? It's beating and it's alive. And to Eric Holder's point, which is a beautiful way to think of this, we are slow to be roused. Do you see the country as awakened to this or starting to be awake or less asleep or how do you assess the country on these issues?

[Carol Leonnig]

Nicole, it's hard for me to say with real surety. And it's going to be anecdotal, so apologies in advance for not being mathematically correct here. But what I pick up in the tours that we've been doing, including graciously with you and talking to other folks about our book Injustice, which is about the attack on the rule of law that Donald Trump began in his first presidency and succeeds in implementing to a great degree in his first 10 months in office. What I am hearing from readers and viewers is that they're beside themselves, very disturbed that this feels to them like a time period in Europe that in the 1930s that Michael's referencing, where, you know, Americans don't want to believe that we will go back to that time. But the people I'm interacting with and talking to about rule of law fear, that's exactly where we are, where people can be hoovered up off the streets with men who allegedly work for the US Government but are wearing masks and balaclavas, that we're in a place where people can be charged. How coincidental. Over and over again, because they happen to be Donald Trump's perceived enemies or very vocal critics. Let's go through the list. Adam Schiff, who led impeachment proceedings John Brennan, who presented evidence involving Donald Trump's campaign's routine contacts with Russian operatives during the 2020, 2016 election campaign. Jim Comey, who refused the loyalty pledge and continued with an investigation of the aforementioned Russian contacts with Trump's campaign. And, of course, Letitia James, the one person who somehow succeeded in getting first, getting him found to be responsible for an extensive, rather circuitous level of fraud in the Trump organ, where he elevated or diminished the value of his company and its holdings in order to benefit from tax relief or from some other method. It's just sort of the quick answer to your question is I see it anecdotally. I don't know if it meets what Eric Holder, our former attorney general, predicts.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, I mean, we kind of have two data points, right? We have the results, the sweeping sort of running of the tables of the American people saying, I don't think so. In the elections. We have the anecdotes. We don't really have the meaning over this big question we're talking about and we spend so much time on, and that is the weaponization and politicization of the rule of law. I'm Caroline Michael Feinberg. Claire McCaskill, thank you so much for starting us off today. After the break, another investigation made up to intimidate Members of Congress and anyone question the Trump administration. Today, Pete Hegseth announced he's looking into the conduct of Senator Mark Kelly. We'll bring you that story next.

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[Jen Psaki]

Mississippi now presents season two of the Blueprint, hosted by Jen Psaki. In each episode, she talks to leading Democrats about how they plan to win it, including Texas Congressman Greg Cassar, who chairs the Progressive caucus, Congresswoman Sarah McBride of Delaware, the first openly trans person elected to Congress, and more who are helping to shape the future of the party. The Blueprint with Jen Psaki Season 2 All episodes available now.

[Nicole Wallace]

Today, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, who has presided over a series of deadly military strikes in the Caribbean of the highly questionable legality, announced that the Pentagon will initiate an investigation into Senator Mark Kelly, one of six Democrats who participated in a video simply reminding active duty service members of their duty to refuse illegal orders. In a statement posted on social media, the Pentagon cited the Uniform Code of Military justice and federal law prohibiting actions, quote, intended to interfere with the loyalty, morale or good order and discipline of the armed forces, insisting, quote, orders are presumed to be lawful. Over the weekend, Donald Trump once again berated the six lawmakers, called them, quote, traitors, saying, quote, they should be in jail right now, quote, it was sedition at the highest level. Senator Mark Kelly, a former Navy fighter pilot and astronaut, responded this afternoon. Quote, Secretary Hegseth's tweet is the first I heard of this. I also saw the president's post saying I should be arrested, hanged and put to death. If this is meant to intimidate me and other members of Congress from doing our jobs and holding this administration accountable, it won't work. I've given too much to this country to be silenced by bullies who care more about their own power than protecting the Constitution. I'm going to bring into Our coverage retired U.S. army Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling. General, let me just ask you a strategic question. If you, as a commander in chief only intend to order the military to do things that are legal, why wouldn't you just, just repost the video and say, I concur. All my orders will be legal.

[General Mark Hertling]

I think that's what most sane people would do, Nicole. But that's not what we're dealing with here. We're dealing with people who want to intimidate. And what's interesting, as I was asked to be on today, I realized that what Senator Kelly is doing is something that every drill sergeant does in basic training. You, you know, whenever you introduce me, Nicole, you always talk about my last command of US Army Europe, but before that, I was in charge of all basic training in the United States Army. We wrote a book that is this. It's called the Soldier's Blue Book, and it's a representation of what Baron von Steuben did in the late 1780s when he was working for General Washington. And in this book, just like it did back then, saying, obey the orders of the Continental Congress, this one says, obey all legal orders. Do not obey any illegal orders. That's not just to officers. That's to everyone who wears the uniform. So I'm not sure what they're trying to do with Senator Kelly, what kind of intimidation. But illegal orders are those that violate the Constitution, federal statute, the Uniform Code of Military justice inside the military, the laws of armed conflict, or anything that's within the authority of an officer to give an order. So, again, I'm confused. And as I'm sure Senator Kelly is.

[Nicole Wallace]

As well, let me show you an image Senator Kelly posted today on his Instagram account. This is who Donald Trump is fighting with, someone who General John Kelly. But it heads with because of his constant insistence on referring to men and women of the military as, quote, my generals, his off the rails tweets about little rocket man Kim Jong Un. Donald Trump repelled Secretary Mattis, who I believe became the first Cabinet Secretary in 1.0 to leave for cause over Trump's decisions around the Middle east treatment of our allies. General Mark Milley was someone that Donald Trump repelled because he refused to sort of sit down and be quiet. What is it about the honor of men and women in the military that so triggers a man like Donald Trump?

[General Mark Hertling]

Wow, that's a philosophical question. I think it's likely because he has never experienced it. He doesn't understand the code of ethics, the values that are taught in any military service. When you look at Senator Kelly's uniform that he posted right there, you see the rank of a captain. I saw the Defense Superior Service Medal. On that row of ribbons, I saw a combat star. And that's not even including the fact that I think he still holds the record for most time in outer space as a shuttle astronaut and a member of the space station. I'm not sure about that, but I think he does. So all of those things are. And he also has obviously the gold naval aviator wins not pilot wings, but naval aviator wings, which means I think he's flown close to 5,000 combat hours as well. Well, so this is a, an individual who from his youth, 21, 22 years old, he signed up to join something that's bigger than he is, bigger than himself. And he's given selfless service to the country over those last X number of years. And yet you have a secretary of defense saying that he's going to bring him up on charges for saying things that every single drill sergeant teaches young recruits and which is reinforced continuously through a career of service. Again, I just go back to the point that I'm baffled by all of this. It was a reminder from the so called seditious six, as I think someone's calling them, to tell soldiers to remind soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines to obey legal orders and to not obey illegal orders. And soldiers have that requirement to do. Again, Nicole, I can't offer any more than that. It's the right thing to do. It's the harder right as opposed to the easier wrong.

[Nicole Wallace]

And Donald Trump, of course, is someone who the Atlantic first reported described the men and women who are injured or lose their life serving their country as, quote, suckers and losers, something that his former press assistant, Sarah Matthews admitted on my air. She was, was told to say wasn't true. She would later come to know that that was true. That was what he thought of the men and women who made the ultimate sacrifice. Jim, we're going to ask you to stick around. We have to sneak in a quick break. We'll be right back on the other side.

[Jen Psaki]

Because of what he says, there is now an increased threats against us. I'm not going to get into, you know, details on my personal security, but as the husband of Congresswoman Gabby Giffords, we, I understand what political violence is. The president should as well, just like Gabby, somebody tried to assassinate him. And he should understand that his words have, you know, could have serious, serious consequences.

[Nicole Wallace]

And I remember just weeks ago hearing from the president and other Republicans about the need to dial back the rhetoric after the tragic shooting of Charlie Kirk when it comes to. Yeah, what happened to that? I mean, that was two months ago. Where are they now?

[Jen Psaki]

We've heard very, very little. Basically crickets from Republicans in the United States Congress about what the president has said about hanging members of Congress.

[Nicole Wallace]

Just let that sink in in terms of where we are. A man who you just went through what all of those muddles and pins mean in terms of what he's given to the country in his own words, talking about what his wife, Congresswoman Giffords, sacrificed in service of our country. And then to end with this, where are they now? We've heard very little, basically crickets from Republicans in the United States Congress about what the president has said about hanging members of Congress. Where are we when we're talking about hanging a sitting US Senator who served his country?

[General Mark Hertling]

We're in a time, Nicole, of moral injury and moral cowardice, a lack of ability to really see what our values and our ethos are, how we treat one another, the respect we pay our fellow citizens, whether they're senators or congressmen of the other party or not. You know, for Senator Kelly specifically to be part of allegedly the world's greatest deliberative body, to have no one standing up for him on the other side, to me is just, it's craziness. It's, it's part of something I can't understand. You stand up for someone who's being bullied. You prevent them from being assaulted, you prevent insults from being thrown at you. That, I mean, this is what we learn in second and third grade and we try to apply it through the rest of our lives. But it doesn't seem to be that a lot of people. Well, it does seem that a lot of people have misplaced that moral responsibility with just being on a certain side of the aisle in politics for power authorit authority. I don't know. You know, I, I've had a great life, Nicole. I've, I've spent a lifetime in service to our country. And the thing that I kept coming back to throughout that life is, you know, I read in a book one time when it comes to a choice between being a great soldier or a great human being, be a great human being, because that will make you a great soldier. That's what I think a lot of these people who are not standing up for the moral right are experiencing right now.

[Nicole Wallace]

There'll be much more coverage from us on this story when Senator Mark Kelly sits down with our colleague Rachel Maddow tonight for an exclusive interview. That's at 9:00pm Eastern. Of course, our thanks to General Mark Kirtling. He will be back with us us in the next hour. After the break. For us, Donald Trump's treasury secretary has some practical and realistic advice for those who feel that inflation is too high. We'll show it to you next. Polls continue to show that the American people do not approve of Donald Trump's handling of the economy. A new CBS News YouGov poll over the weekend shows that 60% of Americans think that Donald Trump makes prices and inflation sound better than they really are. 40% of Republicans agree with them. But here's the advice that Treasury Secretary Scott Besant offered. We warned you. Listen, we have slowed inflation and we.

[Jen Psaki]

Are working very hard to bring it down.

[General Mark Hertling]

Chris. And I can tell you that the.

[Nicole Wallace]

Council on Economic Advisors has a study.

[General Mark Hertling]

You know the best way to bring your inflation rate down?

[Nicole Wallace]

Move from a blue state to a red state.

[General Mark Hertling]

Blue state inflation is half a percent higher.

[Nicole Wallace]

Just move. Because that's not more expensive than just about anything else you do as a family. Great. We'll just order our boxes now, pack it up and move. Okay. And now Moody's top economist is warning that the affordability crisis is about to get worse as Donald Trump's tariffs and Donald Trump's immigration inflation crackdown send inflation soaring ever higher, not lower. We'll stay on top of Besson's just move plan after the break. For us, what the losing of Marjorie Taylor Greene means for the MAGA movement. The next hour deadline White House starts after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

[Political Analyst]

Home to the Rachel Maddow Show.

[Carol Leonnig]

Morning Joe, the briefing with Jen Psaki and more.

[Political Analyst]

Voices you know and trust. Ms. Now is your source for news, opinion and the world. Our name is new, but you'll find the same commitment to justice, progress, and the truth that you've relied on for decades. We'll continue to cover the day's news, ask the tough questions and explain how it impacts you. Ms. Now. Same mission, new name. Learn more at Ms. Now.