“Having the courage to speak up”

Summary

Podcast Summary: Deadline: White House

Host: Nicolle Wallace, MSNBC
Episode Title: "Having the Courage to Speak Up"
Date: January 26, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on an extraordinary moment of civic action and protest in America, tracing the courageous response of ordinary citizens—and eventually public figures and institutions—to the federal killings of Renee Nicole Goode and Alex Preddy in Minneapolis by federal agents under the Trump administration. Nicolle Wallace and her guests examine the cultural shift where sports figures, celebrities, and everyday people choose to speak out, analyzing the deeper implications for democracy, civic virtue, political power, and the global image of the United States.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Power and Contagion of Courage in Civic Protests

• Nicolle Wallace begins by framing the protests as acts of "courage that frankly we don't see outside of the American people." She underscores that the widespread silence, especially from institutional leaders, is no longer sustainable given the urgency on the streets ([01:12]).
• Anne Applebaum calls it a "watershed moment," emphasizing how "courage...is always contagious" and noting the historic pattern of bravery influencing broader sectors of society ([09:36]).

Key Quote:
“That kind of courage, that demonstration of civic virtue and civic willpower, that is always contagious... They understand that something important has happened.”
—Anne Applebaum ([09:36])

2. Athletes and Celebrities Break Their Silence

• Nicolle highlights the impact of NBA figures, recapping statements from coaches and players, and the NBA Players Association's call to action:

"NBA players can no longer remain silent. Now more than ever, we must defend the right to freedom of speech and stand in solidarity with the people in Minnesota protesting..." ([03:21])

• She also shares how Hollywood shifted from previous silence to public condemnation, citing Natalie Portman, Olivia Wilde, and Ed Norton at Sundance ([06:13]).

Memorable Moment:
“It doesn’t matter [because] they are following what we described Friday as an act of historic bravery—historic, it will be studied for hundreds of years..."
—Nicolle Wallace ([06:34])

3. Presidential Response: The Obamas Weigh In

• Nicolle reads from the Obamas' statement, calling the killing a "heartbreaking tragedy" and warning of core values "under assault" ([08:09]).
• The statement underscores the need for citizen engagement at every level and hails peaceful protest as a defense of democracy.

4. The Nature of Sustaining Democratic Action

• Anne Applebaum urges translating protest energy into political participation: "What matters is participating in elections, making sure you have good candidates, maybe being a candidate yourself, being involved at every level..." ([10:42])
• She argues local politics are just as critical as national, citing Minneapolis as proof.

5. Regular Americans as the Agents of Change

• Mitch Landrieu reflects on disillusionment with institutional responses, recalling his post-Katrina experience and stressing, "the people that are going to save this country are regular folks on the street... If you're waiting on the senators... evidently they have told you they're not coming."

Key Quote:
"Donald Trump will not be stopped unless you stop him and the only thing that's going to make it happen is the might and the cumulative power and courage of regular American citizens to stand up and say, hell no, not here, not in my country."
—Mitch Landrieu ([12:50])

6. Refusing Consent: More Americans Make a Choice

• Eddie Glaude notes the crucial moment as "a crossroads," insisting, "everyday ordinary people are forced to make a choice... even if you refuse, you're making a choice" ([14:44]).
• Tom Nichols adds: "What we're seeing in the Twin Cities is a refusal to consent... they are calling for rolling civic power outages" ([14:44]).

7. The Power of Irrefutable Evidence

• Nicolle and Mitch discuss the potency of phone videos that contradict official narratives, noting "this is one you can't look away from" ([16:21]), and how even steadfast supporters can’t ignore undeniable imagery.

8. International Repercussions and the 'Shining City' Fades

• Anne Applebaum details how protest visuals juxtaposed with events like Davos have shattered the U.S.’s image abroad:

"They look like democracy protests in other places we know... all of this is having a profound effect on the image, and maybe even the power, of the United States" ([23:02]).

• Mitch laments, "It's hard to even state how much confidence the world has lost in the United States' ability to be a cohesive force" ([24:44]).

9. The Deepening Fault Lines in Right-Wing Politics

• Nicolle explores how the killings have sparked rifts among right-wing groups—most notably the NRA—in reaction to Trump’s shifting rhetoric on guns, exposing hypocrisy ([18:32], [31:03]).
• The administration's double standard is scrutinized: law-abiding gun owners at protests are condemned, even as similar conduct by MAGA supporters went unpunished ([32:10]).

10. Gaslighting and Propaganda

• Eddie Glaude and Tom Nichols dissect the "Orwellian" tactics of the Trump administration, noting the replacement of truth with purposeful "bullshit" (referencing philosopher Harry Frankfurt):

“Calling hypocrisy, calling lies—it doesn't matter because they want to soak us, they want to drown us in bs." —Eddie Glaude ([33:51])

11. Confronting Cognitive Dissonance

• Tom Nichols explains, "ordinary citizens need to call out that cognitive dissonance among each other"—refusing to accept revisionist history or gaslighting from political leaders ([39:21]).
• The panel agrees that calling out lies and hypocrisy remains crucial, even when supporters seem unmoved.

12. The Necessity—and Limits—of Hope

• Eddie Glaude cautions that exposing lies is necessary, but more is needed:

"We also have to understand that this is not just simply about cognitive dissonance and ignorance. There's something deeper at work in the psyche of the MAGA base..." ([42:13])

• Mitch adds, "They think it's okay if someone opposes them... to take them out. They think that's their prerogative... That should scare the crap out of everybody in America" ([43:20]).

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Notable Quotes, Moments, and Timestamps

• Anne Applebaum:
  "That kind of courage... is always contagious." ([09:36])

• Michelle & Barack Obama (read by Nicolle):
  “[This is] a wake up call to every American... Every American should support and draw inspiration from the wave of peaceful protests…” ([08:09])

• Charles Barkley (quoted by Nicolle):
  "Two people have died for no reason and it's just sad." ([02:47])

• Eddie Glaude:
  "Everyday ordinary people are forced to make a choice—they're forcing Americans to make a choice: which side are you on? And it's momentous." ([14:44])

• Tom Nichols:
  "The most powerful tool against that is people's phones and the ability to document what is actually happening." ([16:21])

• Mitch Landrieu:
  "America's heart and soul is right now [with] teachers and construction workers and nurses... it's going to be necessary in order to get our country back." ([24:44])

• Eddie Glaude:
  "They think that's their prerogative... That in fact American citizens who are protesting are in fact enemies, not fellow patriots arguing over the future of democracy. That should scare the crap out of everybody." ([43:20])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Courage and Public Protest: 01:12 – 09:36
• Celebrities and Athletes Speak Out: 03:21 – 06:34
• Obama Statement on Democratic Values: 08:09 – 09:36
• Anne Applebaum on Democratic Action: 09:36 – 11:49
• Mitch Landrieu on Ordinary Americans Leading Change: 11:49 – 13:51
• Eddie Glaude on Civic Organizing and the Crossroads: 14:44 – 16:21
• Irrefutable Evidence & Division: 16:21 – 18:32
• International Reactions and Shattered Image: 23:02 – 24:41
• Future of People Power & Boycotts: 26:33 – 29:12
• Right-Wing Hypocrisy Exposed: 31:03 – 32:39
• Gaslighting and “BS”: 33:51 – 36:24
• Hope vs. Cynicism: 42:07 – 44:45
• Susan Rice: Authoritarian Intimidation & American Resistance: 45:38 – 47:23

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Language, Tone, and Final Thoughts

The episode is urgent, passionate, and clear-eyed. Nicolle Wallace and her panel balance moral outrage, analytical rigor, and calls to courage. They emphasize the relentless need for truth, vigilance, and participation, while warning of the dangers of complacency and the normalization of authoritarian tactics.

Final Quote (Susan Rice):
"I believe that the vast majority of Americans are not interested in surrendering our constitutional rights... and the people of Minneapolis and Minnesota more broadly... are showing us the way.” ([44:45])

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Recommended for listeners seeking clarity, context, and hope amid a watershed American crisis.

Transcript

[Nicole]

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[Anne Applebaum]

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[Nicole]

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[Tom Nichols]

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[Tom Nichols]

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[Mitch Landrieu]

One another and to recognize what's happening we are we're being divided.

[Nicole]

Hi again everybody it's now five o' clock in new york what we have been watching unfold in minneapolis in the wake of the tragic killings of now two people at the hands of donald trump's federal agents is courage courage that frankly we don't see outside of the american people outside of people showing up for each other and their neighbors to protest and speak out against donald trump the power of the thousands of ordinary people who have taken to the streets in minneapolis is forcing the question upon other parts of society that have chosen to remain quiet it is now unsustainable for the leaders in this country to keep their silence are they going to do it anyway in the sports world the answer to that question became clear over the weekend and it was no here's how nba figures reacted to the killing of alex preddy and the postponement of the saturday basketball game between the minnesota timberwolves and the golden state warriors because of.

[Tom Nichols]

It watch for the second time in less than three weeks we've lost another beloved member of our community.

[Anne Applebaum]

In the.

[Tom Nichols]

Most unimaginable way you know as an organization we are heartbroken for what we.

[Nicole]

Are having to witness and endure and.

[Tom Nichols]

Watch there's so much out there that.

[Mitch Landrieu]

Is really difficult for all of us.

[Tom Nichols]

To sort of reconcile and so you.

[Mitch Landrieu]

Have to in times like these you have to lean on values and who you are and who you want to.

[Tom Nichols]

Be either as an individual or as a country going back to i think her name is renee good and today man it's it's just sad man it's it's scary it's sad it's and i don't know how you know it's gonna end bad it's already ended badly twice and somebody's gotta step up and be adults because man two people have died for no reason and it's just sad.

[Nicole]

So if you're not a big basketball fan like i am i'm sad for you no i'm kidding i want to explain why that matters who those people are so that was charles barclay at the end and millions of people listened to his broadcast they're usually about basketball sometimes about life but rarely about ice practices in the city of minneapolis he opened a floodgate of sorts the first two were the coaches of that game that was postponed was to be played in minneapolis first one was the head coach of the timberwolves chris finch and the second was steve kerr who's more outspoken about issues like gun violence but after or around the same time the coaches one of the most prominent and watched broadcasters and beloved former players at the same time they speak the nba players association also released a statement and it was it was extraordinary it was an urgent call to action for the players from the players after the killing of preddy it reads in part quote following the news of yet another fatal shooting in minneapolis a city that has been on the forefront of the fight against injustices nba players can no longer remain silent nba players can no longer remain silent now more than ever we must defend the right to freedom of speech and stand in solidarity with the people in minnesota protesting and risking their lives to demand justice the fraternity of nba players like the united states itself is a community enriched by its global citizens and we refuse to let the flames of division threaten the civil liberties that are meant to protect us all two time nba all star tyrese halliburton was one of the first players to speak out over the weekend he wrote this on social media quote alex preddy was murdered in the wnba two time mvp brianna stewart held up an abolished ice sign to a crowd in miami ahead of a game with her unrivaled league team stewart telling reporters this quote when human lives are at stake it is bigger than anything else end quote meanwhile a story we covered around here with a lot of blowback from hollywood california two weeks after the notable silence at the golden globe awards ceremony here's how some of the most prominent and celebrated and accomplished celebrities entertainers in the world in our country use their platforms at a film festival and sundance this weekend to speak out what's going on in our country right now is absolutely horrific with what the federal government trump's government kristi noem ice what they're doing is really the worst of the worst of humanity and then we also have the best of the best of humanity for the way people are showing up for each other this country is hurting.

[Anne Applebaum]

And it's a appalling i'm appalled i'm.

[Nicole]

Sickened and we can't go another day.

[Anne Applebaum]

Just sort of accepting this as our.

[Nicole]

New norm it's outrageous people are being.

[Anne Applebaum]

Murdered and i don't want to normalize seeing people being murdered on the internet on film i'm sitting here talking about.

[Tom Nichols]

Movies while.

[Nicole]

An illegal army is being mounted against us citizens so that was the actors natalie portman olivia wilde and ed norton again just two weeks after some of the most prominent people in entertainment it was the day after i think renee nicole good was killed didn't say anything something has shifted and then all three of them and others said something at a film festival now why does this matter doesn't matter because they're famous it doesn't matter because they have money and standing it matters because they are following what we described friday as an act of historic bravery historic it will be studied for hundreds of years with the ordinary people the nurses the teachers the moms and the dads are doing in minneapolis minnesota but again it comes against the backdrop of something we've covered every day frankly for the last fifteen months the silence and complicity of the most powerful law firms the most prominent and prestigious universities and the biggest and most lucrative media companies it is remarkable then that people are speaking out right now someone who has spoken out repeatedly and tried to warn the country rather desperately and urgently about donald trump and the dangers of a second presidency president barack obama and his wife michelle obama they also spoke out over the weekend in a statement it reads in part quote the killing of alex preddy is a heartbreaking tragedy it should also be a wake up call to every american regardless of party that many of our core values as a nation are increasingly under assault for weeks now people across the country have been rightly outraged by the spectacle of masked ice recruits and other federal agents acting with impunity and engaging in tactics that seem designed to intimidate to harass to provoke and endanger the residents of a major american city every american should support and draw inspiration from the wave of peaceful protests in minneapolis and other parts of the country they are a timely reminder that ultimately it's up to each of us as citizens to speak out against injustice protect our basic freedoms and hold our government accountable that is where we start the hour atlantic staff writer anne applebaum is with us a new season of her timely podcast autocracy in america is out right now also joining us staff writer at the atlantic and a contributor to the atlantic daily newsletter tom nichols is here he's a professor emeritus of national security affairs at the us naval war college where he taught for more than two decades former senior advisor to president joe biden and vice president kamala harris the former mayor of new orleans mitch landrieu is back he's now the co chair of american bridge twenty first century also joining us princeton university professor political analyst our friend eddie glads here he's the author of the book where are the leaders we have been looking for soon to be out we are the leaders we've been looking for talk about timely soon to be out in paperback anne applebaum let me start with you and ask you how you see this moment.

[Anne Applebaum]

It looks like a watershed moment not because of what ice did but as you've just said because of what so many citizens in minneapolis have done you see people now standing against not just men who are armed and intimidating but men who have now killed two people and yet you see people continuing to protest and continue to say that what they are doing is wrong that kind of courage that demonstration of civic virtue and civic willpower that is always contagious it doesn't surprise me that hollywood celebrities are now speaking out or that some republican politicians are beginning to speak out because when people see that and this is a pattern we know from many other countries they understand that something important has happened and so i think that's the shift you've seen in the last few days and how do.

[Nicole]

You sustain it how does a country that doesn't want to fall to autocracy sustain and bolster the people in the streets of minneapolis well first of all.

[Anne Applebaum]

It'S important to remember that we still have democratic institutions and people should use them so protests are a step protest mobilize people protests express emotion and make people feel inspired but ultimately what matters is participating in elections making sure you have good candidates maybe being a candidate yourself being involved at every level of the political process i mean actually minneapolis is a great example of why local politics matters so much it matters who your mayor is it matters who your local councilors are being involved in understanding that politics is not just running water it's not just something that happens and you just turn it on and democracy comes out the tap it's actually something that requires effort it means that people have to go and be involved and the more people can i would also say that once you are involved once you've begun to work with candidates work with advocacy groups organize your neighbors organize discussion groups then you will begin to see other things that you can do and i'm sure that's what's happening in.

[Nicole]

America right now so the one former mayor on the panel mitch lander how do you see this moment.

[Eddie Glaude]

Well it's just it's just incredible honestly what the country is going through at the moment and it seems in this instance that people are waking up a little bit and it's a crying shame that it took the deaths of renee goode and alex preddy to get people really in a position where they know that nobody's coming to save us and i think this statement of president obama is probably correct eddie glaude will speak to this a little bit later i'm sure i experienced this after katrina that the people that are going to save this country are just regular folks on the street because if you're waiting on the senators who are republican are you waiting on the tech leaders you're waiting on you know other folks they evidently have told you that they're not coming donald trump has also told you to be very clear about this because this is where it's coming from bovino is executing it homan's executing it stephen miller is the architect of it but donald trump is the power behind it and through the words of jd vance they've said very clearly to the american people in a very direct way i am the power i will do what i want if you get in my way i will give those who work for me the license to kill you that's the message that is exactly what has happened here now we can argue about training for ice we can argue about whether they did the right thing or the wrong thing which from my perspective is inarguable but don't forget that the directive has come down and unless you stop that from happening it's going to continue donald trump will not be stopped unless you stop him and the only thing that's going to make it happen is is the might and the cumulative power and courage of regular american citizens to stand up and say hell no not here in my country we're not doing this anymore and i hope that you see a sustained effort over time because unfortunately that is what it's going to take.

[Nicole]

So eddie glad where does that come from i mean i would go further to say that what trump has signaled going back to his first term is that i in the power do what i want you to do and i'll pardon you that's not i'm not projecting that on him that is what he has said i mean it's not just act with impunity he has a pattern and practice of pardoning people who act in his name and do the things that he wants them to do so where does it come from that in response to the killing of renee nicole goode a mother of three more people went out peacefully to protest and in response to a second shooting seventeen days later of alex preddy even more people were out and then followed by some of the most powerful and to this point silent pockets and corners and parts of our society well first of all.

[Tom Nichols]

It'S great to see you nicole i think large segments of minneapolis and saint paul are committed to the idea that this democracy is predicated upon the consent of the governed that they themselves understand that the country and our democracy stands on the precipice you ask where we are we're at the crossroads to use a blues metaphor and there's something there's a verb you used at the beginning as you set up the segment you said that they forced a choice and what you see is courage what you see is organization and what you see is deliberate deployment of the skill set of this particular generation everything is being videoed everything is being circulated and that circulation of image challenges the lies the bs actually of the trump administration and so part of what we know is that if it's true that democracy is american democracy is predicated upon the consent of the governed what we're seeing in the twin cities is a refusal to consent and what they called for in terms of the minnesota ice out others are calling for i think we need rolling civic power outages i agree with ann political process is important but this cuts even deeper and so i think nicole at the end of the day everyday ordinary people are forced to make a choice they're forcing americans to make a choice which side are you on and it's momentous you can't opt out all of us have to make a choice at this point even if you refuse you're making a choice tom nichols.

[Nicole]

It is amazing that in twenty twenty six i think one of the most searched words is orwell right i mean what the trump administration is doing out loud and in public is telling you not to believe your eyes not to believe your ears and to eddie's point the most powerful tool against that is people's phones and the ability to document what is actually happening.

[Mitch Landrieu]

Yeah and it's interesting because sometimes the constant hyperconnectivity of american life puts us at each other's throats and makes us argue and fight with each other but what an incredibly powerful tool simply to have the images that are irrefutable and i think this is one reason that so many people who support the president simply refuse to watch the news now they don't want to know they're and i think a lot of this is breaking through even to those folks but certainly to their neighbors to their families and other people that you can't this is this is one you can't look away from i think the president has been the beneficiary for years of people including at the very top of the government who say well i didn't see that or i didn't hear about it or i didn't hear him say that this video evidence not just of the brutality of ice and the brutality of this government but of the bravery of hundreds of thousands of people people going out in subzero weather as anne points out it's contagious courage is contagious and i think that that's really causing a kind of watershed moment here because this is no longer a division between liberals and conservatives or right and left this is sort of die hard supporters of the president who are going to claim you know that these people were terrorists or agitators and sort of everybody else in america who now has been put you know eddie was talking about people having to choose sides it's put everybody kind of on the same side of saying i can see this with my own eyes no matter what anybody else is telling me and that's really powerful yeah i mean.

[Nicole]

On that point the nra actually quibbled with something that the trump administration was saying and if you'd told me i don't know sixteen months ago i'd be covering a divide or a debate between the nra and trump two point zero i would have told you to you know pass me whenever you were drinking all right everyone sticks around i'm going to tell you about that part of the story also ahead how the brutal killing of alex preddy is revealing this deep hypocrisy in right wing politics gun rights advocates as we said are outraged by donald trump's defense or story that he and his administration is telling that preddy was killed in part by because he was carrying a gun he was legally permitted and authorized to carry why those officials are saying now is a complete one hundred eighty for what they have fought for for decades deadline white house continues after a quick break don't go anywhere.

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[Eddie Glaude]

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[Tom Nichols]

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[Eddie Glaude]

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[Mitch Landrieu]

I'M a veteran i swore an.

[Nicole]

Oath back in nineteen sixty nine to protect this country against all enemies foreign.

[Tom Nichols]

And domestic this is unbelievable people this.

[Nicole]

Is the third person that's been shot.

[Tom Nichols]

As a result of this how many more bodies do we have to have in the state of minnesota how many.

[Nicole]

More how many more before somebody is responsible or held responsible for this it's a question that people are grappling with in minneapolis and far beyond that's a veteran speaking out in minneapolis but as i said beyond minneapolis large protests erupted all over our country i want to show them to you here they are from hawaii to boston thousands of americans taking to the streets to show their outrage at donald trump and his administration over the shooting death of another us citizen by his federal agents agents deployed by donald trump in many cities braving the dangerous freezing temperatures didn't seem to slow or shrink any of those turnouts this was the scene in chicago on sunday protesters marching despite single digit wind chills just hours before the massive winter storm hit more than one thousand people rallied saturday afternoon in new york city's union square in sub zero temperatures people across maine protested the deadly shootings and ice's operations in their own state which are ramping up hundreds more marched through downtown los angeles a city that's already known trump's immigration enforcement a banner about reading from los angeles to minneapolis stop ice terror and this video from the washington post a massive crowd formed on saturday booing and chanting shame outside of dhs headquarters in washington dc we're back with our panel and i feel like i've tried to will you into saying you know the tide is turning so many times i don't want to ask a leading question but i want to understand how people around the world see this moment when you take those images of protest and you smash them up against davos.

[Anne Applebaum]

I think for people around the world the scenes from minneapolis combined with the the the bizarre series of events that unfolded in davos are a kind of it's a shattering of an image i mean the funny thing is not even people who didn't like the united states or who didn't like american fore had some idea of american democracy and how it was supposed to work and had a vision of the united states as the leader of the democratic world or of a kind of democratic alliance in europe and asia and elsewhere and i think the combination of these events has really made people begin to think differently i mean so you're hearing conversations in europe about new kinds of alliances new ways of thinking about power you heard mark carney the prime minister of canada say exactly that that smaller nations now need acknowledge that this world has changed and they need to behave differently you hear that in asia and elsewhere i actually have lots of foreign journalists calling me and asking me what's going on or could i comment on what's happening and it feels very peculiar this is something i've been asked for many years to talk about protests in russia or protests in iran and never really before protests in the united states and that's i think because they they look like democracy protests in other places that we know and that we've seen before and all of this is having it's too early to say where it's going but it's having a very rapid you know very i think it'll have a very profound effect over time on the image and maybe even the power.

[Nicole]

Of the united states mitch i saw.

[Eddie Glaude]

You nodding well ann is one of the preeminent international journalists and i trust that she'll confirm what i'm telling you there was a time when the united states was a shining city on a hill for people around the world as they look to us as the beacon of democracy it's hard to even state how much confidence the world has lost in the united states ability to be a cohesive force in europe and in the united states and people are calling scratching their heads wondering when is america going to rebalance itself and you see that all the time on the streets of america what you see is people losing confidence that the government is here to protect them they've lost the confidence law enforcement really can't protect us if we don't have confidence in them and if it's not transparent if there's no accountability if they're given to violating people's first amendment second amendment now fourth amendment evidently which is astounding that they think that they can go into people's homes without a warrant people then have no confidence so they take things into their own hands and that is the definition of when you know really terrible violence will occur so i am really heartened that the people are taking to the street i'm tired of waiting on some republican senators that can't find their courage or tech executives that won't or business leaders or law firms that have bent the knee to donald trump i'm pretty well convinced that they're not coming until the american people give them confidence but it does not surprise me that it's going to come from the street from teachers and construction workers and nurses that's where america's heart and soul is right now and that's what you see and i hope that it will continue because it's going to be necessary in order to get our country back i mean.

[Nicole]

Tom the next question though is what do the people do with their power right i mean the people could as in the firing of jimmy kimmel cancel subscriptions to media companies that are viewed as complicit and bring to kimmel back in short order the people you know people are organizing boycotts at different companies that are viewed as too cooperative with ice i mean what do you see as the next phase of people understanding the power they have in their peaceful.

[Mitch Landrieu]

Protests that's such a hard question i think the way you phrase that is really important people understanding the power they have i think part of the way that donald trump came stampeding back into government was to try to get people to embrace a kind of learned helplessness to say we're in charge we're in charge of everything there's nothing you can do about it this is just how it is and what we're finding is that donald trump actually while his aspirations are pretty lofty in terms of fascism he's act his government is actually quite weak i mean he's lost on a whole bunch of issues starting with his own party turning out the epstein files which i think has been a you know spur to him losing his his composure for months now but you know he's underwater on all these issues his polling numbers are are failing the economy isn't doing what he wants and then he goes into the foreign realm as autocrats often do to try to rack up some cheap wins in foreign policy and he's not getting any boost out of that and i think you know what we've been seeing over the past day is the white house and the people around him they're worried and i think people need to keep speaking up keep protesting the next city that ice goes to people should exercise their first amendment rights and say that kind of lawlessness is not welcome here and it's really a tragedy because america we need a professional immigration service and the the term ice now has become synonymous with a paramilitary force that answers only to donald trump so it's no wonder that people are raising their voices about it but they have to keep doing that they have to keep contacting their legislators and i'm just going to you know emphasize right behind dan again about this they have to vote and be involved in the process at every single level not just national politics city politics state politics that's one of the lessons of minnesota there's a lot of civic involvement there at every level of government and that is one of the strongest defenses of american democracy there is such such.

[Nicole]

Such good points i want to pull eddie into this i have to sneak in a break and we have to say goodbye to anne applebaum but thank you so much for starting us off today tom mitch and eddie stick around when we come back the killing of alex preddy in the streets of minneapolis is revealing a rift on the right that i want to tell you about it casts some serious doubt over whether the trump administration seemingly drunk on its own power or oblivious which is always possible cares at all about even pretending to care about the constitution and the second amendment will have that conversation ahead why have we asked our contractor we found on angie dot com to be our kids legal guardian because he took such good care when redoing our basement that we knew we could trust him to care for our kids we only.

[Tom Nichols]

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[Nicole]

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[Mitch Landrieu]

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[Tom Nichols]

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[Eddie Glaude]

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[Nicole]

Now for people who are second amendment absolutists what's it all been about if not this one could rattle off the names of republicans elected or otherwise who built up entire careers and political profiles around this idea that the purchase and possession of firearms and the right to carry them that is essential to that is in the constitution and it's essential because it discourages wait for it a tyrannical government that's the whole reason it's there republicans who have in many cases rejected in the wake of horrific gun violence any common sense safety reforms in our country they do that in the name of preserving the right to bear arms against a tyrannical government they do it in the name of preventing exactly what happened this weekend in minneapolis remember part of donald trump's pitch to voters was protecting that right from any infringement and yet in shocking but not surprising fashion here's how donald trump and his administration addressed the gun issue this weekend.

[Anne Applebaum]

I don't know of any peaceful protester.

[Nicole]

That shows up with a gun and ammun rather than a sign you cannot.

[Eddie Glaude]

Bring a firearm loaded with multiple magazines.

[Mitch Landrieu]

To any sort of protest that you.

[Tom Nichols]

Want it's that simple i am sorry that this gentleman is dead but he did bring a nine millimeter semiautomatic weapon with two cartridges to what was supposed to be a peaceful protest i've been to a protest guess what i didn't bring a gun i brought a billboard.

[Nicole]

Scott besant sends me photo evidence that he's actually been to a protest i'll send him a year's supply of dunkin donuts i swear i swear someone tell him but back to the more important larger point we'll note there are countless examples from the last few years of maga adjacent groups doing precisely what those trump administration officials just condemned on tv carrying with a permit openly at a protest we're back with tom mitch and eddie eddie it doesn't even seem worth our time to call them hypocritical but i think this is more in the orwellian category of don't believe your eyes don't believe your ears i remember sitting through the secret service audio tapes as part of the january sixth select committee hearings and listening to them just naming all the weapons i can name a bow and an arrow or a gun but i can't tell you what kind of gun any of them are big ones long ones and little ones i mean i don't know anything but they're going through and they're naming all the guns and describing what they're wearing and those people were heroes just celebrating who all got pardoned i mean it's a story yes it's about the second amendment and their hypocrisy but it's also about the desperate need to gaslight even their.

[Tom Nichols]

Own base right and i think we need to make two quick points nicole one is that what applies to them doesn't apply to their enemies right we've been talking about over for a long time now earth one and earth two the rules that apply to earth two don't necessarily apply to those of us who inhabit earth one and i want to say that i use the language enemies on purpose because remember donald trump talked about the enemy from within as being more dangerous than russia and china and the enemy from within took the form of adam schiff for a moment but it was really democrats and anyone who opposed his agenda and so it's really important for us to understand that when it comes to immigration and ice donald trump and stephen miller and others they're engaged in an existential battle for the soul of america and so what applies to them doesn't necessarily apply to those who are perceived as enemies and let's be clear renee goode and alex they were considered enemies i want to just be on and then the second point is this there's a difference between lies and bs you know the philosopher harry frankfurter wrote a book entitled on bullshit lies tend to they seek to steer us away from the discovery of truth bullshit has no concern for truth whatsoever its aim it's simply the pursuit of his own purposes and ends so we have the bser in chief and all of his minions they don't care about the truth so calling hypocrisy calling lies it doesn't matter because they want to soak us they want to drown us in bs that's the heart of their propaganda and their attempt to seize the imagination of the american people i.

[Nicole]

Mean eddie i just want to follow up with you because i think that's right and the language of hating his enemies is language that donald trump chose to amplify at charlie kirk's memorial service of all places someone who seemed to make a career engaging people with different views but the idea of drowning people in bs it's evolved or devolved as all trump stories do there's no consumer right among the people that he has said he hates his political enemies it's now all directed at his own voters bs about voting bs about vaccines i mean no one on earth one believes any of it that's why he has a thirty four percent approval rating based on the new polling that's why he's underwater on immigration way underwater on the economy underwater on four percent of americans want to use the military to take greenland i mean there is no public support for his agenda so he's now feeding i'll quote you bullshit to his.

[Tom Nichols]

Own base absolutely and i guess the billboard or the way in which you sell it is that i'm gonna give you another means another way of owning those liberals i'm gonna give you another way of owning those folk who want you to announce your pronouns those folks who are who are talking about transgender athletes those folk who want to take government thumbs and put it on the scale to benefit all of these folk who are not working hard who are lazy who want to be on the government dole that's the tyrannical government right and so he's going to sell them that bill of goods while he engages in his grift and his corruption and the like but it's all bs and what it does in the end it delegitimizes the basic norms that allow our.

[Eddie Glaude]

Democracy to function mitch well eddie's reminding me of james baldwin and he's a james baldwin expert but james baldwin said i criticize my government precisely because i love her so much he considered himself to be a patriot as did the founding fathers you have a right to redress your grievances against the government because it keeps the government accountable and it makes us better donald trump fundamentally does not believe that you can see this in the death of renee good if you happen to get in my way and you protest me we have the power to take your life they did it with alex preddy i have personal experience with the lie that eddie is calling out when we took them to monuments in new orleans we had protests we had individuals show up with very big guns and we had a police department who understood that protected people's right to bear arms made sure everybody was safe when heather heyer was killed you may recall and the president said there were good people on both sides there were pictures of american citizens basically going into the capitol of that state strapped down and they were allowed to protest so this idea that came out of miller's mouth or holman's mouth or bovino's mouth or whoever's saying and patel that no you can't bring a gun to a protest because bassett you know that boy is a lost ball on high weeds on this stuff and i know.

[Mitch Landrieu]

He'S.

[Eddie Glaude]

To kind of sling that at us from him you gotta really be kidding me i mean i might have been born at night but i wasn't born last night.

[Nicole]

It'S so crazy and i don't mean to laugh the world breaks my heart right now but there is something so sick about how much they disrespect their own voters tom and the lies that besant told they don't make me sad because i don't believe anything he says like he's never been for tariffs and he's now out selling the tariffs i've scanned his whole life of public statements he's never said anything about greenland and he goes on tv and says we must have greenland with a straight face and i'm laughing at him but the sad thing is this is how much they now hate their own voters.

[Mitch Landrieu]

Oh the contempt and let me say i wish i had a really cool new england kind of expression but i'm not gonna compete with mitch on the cool regional expression there's no hope for that but they really do despise their own voters and they really do treat them with utter contempt but i want to go back to what you said at the beginning of this nicole you said it's almost not worth the time to point out this hypocrisy no it is absolutely worth the time to point out this hypocrisy and i think this links back to something you asked earlier about what can people do i think this is a time now as difficult as it can be when your friend a relative someone says well you know and they repeat this party lawyer you don't show up to a you know to a protest with guns to turn to them and say what was january sixth what were these COVID lockdown protests what were these second amendment protests you know are we capable of even having a discussion about what's real anymore because i think one thing you're seeing is that trump and the people around him not so much trump i mean trump lives in the moment but i think one of the reasons he's trying to shore up his coalition is they are starting the cracks that you're seeing i think are people suffering from an immense case of cognitive dissonance that they know they've been taken they know these are lies they know nobody cared about you know when somebody comes out and says you know i've been thinking for years about greenland everyone knows that's a lie and i think it's important for people to start saying it out loud to say look you don't believe that i know you don't believe that you know this is wrong this is a moral question and you can't just revise history and reality and you know jump into the transporter to get back to earth two to eddie to eddie's alternative world you know that i think that's starting to crack and i and it goes back to the video evidence the inconsistencies of the administration's people but but ordinary citizens need to call out that cognitive dissonance among each other instead of saying all right well if want to believe that nobody brought a gun to a covid protest fine no that's a lie and you need to say.

[Nicole]

That it's a lie yeah and i think for a lot of people for whom that is more than we cover it as an issue that is an ideology that people feel so strongly about this is a real effort to rewrite that history and those sort of rules of engagement all right no one's going anywhere to sneak in a very short break we'll all be right back.

[Anne Applebaum]

We'Re.

[Nicole]

Back with some of my favorite friends eddie is it safe to feel hope.

[Tom Nichols]

Right now you have to you have to we have to have faith and hope and the capacity of human beings to be otherwise otherwise we would drink too much irish whiskey so it's absolutely necessary for us to believe that human beings can be better but i would want to say something in response to what tom said at the end of the last segment web du bois the great african american scholar who graduated first phd from harvard dedicated his early part of his career nicole to dispelling the ignorance around black folk he thought that at the heart of racism was the fact that white america didn't know anything about black folks and then he confronted the lynching of sam hoes and he realized that this wasn't a matter of convincing them what was right of telling them that they were ignorant around a certain issue something else was going on and that we had to get at that so i agree with tom that we have to expose the lies but we also have to understand that this is not just simply about cognitive dissonance and ignorance there's something deeper at work in the psyche of the maga base that we're going to have to unpack.

[Nicole]

Mitch you want to take a stab.

[Eddie Glaude]

At that yeah because i think it's insidious the idea that doctor glaud is talking about is an insidious idea it's not that they're going to admit that they made a mistake because they maybe ran up on them too fast or they didn't know that he had a gun that's not what they think they think it's okay if someone opposes them either in word or deed physically or by vocal thing to take them out they think that's their prerogative that in fact american citizens who are protesting are in fact enemies not fellow patriots arguing over not the future democracy that should scare the crap out of everybody in america you can see it in the cool calculating way that greg bevino talks with such great confidence knowing that he's got complete and total protection from tom holman from stephen miller and right to the president of the united states because the idea of is that they have power and stephen miller said it as clearly as he possibly could see it on another network that power is the coin of the realm that is not what america is about america is built on the idea is that we are all equal and that we are a nation of laws not of men and that we are a civil society and a pluralistic society where those of us because of our differences can live peacefully that is why we have a constitution and a bill of rights and they basically are telling you they don't believe in that anymore that's the insidious part.

[Nicole]

Of what's going on so can the three of us have that conversation i feel like that's the piece of it right can we do that tomorrow or on the podcast i need to do i think somewhere where we can all use the f word tom nichols mitch landrieu eddie or at least me i'll speak for myself thank you very much for spending the hour with me one more break we'll be right back back so while i try to wrangle tom and eddie and mitch for next week's episode of the best people this one is the perfect person at the perfect moment i got to speak to susan rice she is a lifelong public servant she served in senior positions under presidents clinton obama and biden listen to what she told me about what's happening right now in minnesota i think the point of all of this is to intimidate is to quell legitimate first amendment dissent and to make it difficult for everyday americans much less corporate leaders and university presidents and leaders at law firms to speak up and oppose what is clearly a widening authoritarian power grab but i believe that the vast majority of americans are not interested in surrendering our constitutional rights we're not interested in surrendering our right to free speech to free assembly to worship as we will to exercise our legal right to vote and i don't think at the end of the day we will stand idly by and let all of those rights be taken away from us before our very eyes and the people of minneapolis and minnesota more broadly when they are peacefully organizing and peacefully demonstrating to stand up for those very rights that we all need and cherish are showing us the way to hear the entire conversation just scan the qr code on your screen one more break we'll be right back i know the news is a lot for most of you the weather is a lot so i want to thank you for letting us into your homes we are grateful why have i asked my h vac guy i found on angie dot com to change my grandpa's trachea tube because i was so amazed by how quickly he replaced our air duct.

[Anne Applebaum]

I knew i could trust him to.

[Nicole]

Change pop pops tube while i was on vacation make it quick young man aw see pop pop trusts you i.

[Mitch Landrieu]

Think we should call a doctor connecting.

[Tom Nichols]

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