← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
“He shot the messenger”
01:22:57
Stephanie Ruhle – in for Nicolle Wallace – is joined by Peter Baker, Dan Nathan, Gene Sperling, Sen. Adam Schiff, David Enrich, Mara Gay, Sam Stein, Matthew Dowd, Rev. Al Sharpton, and Elizabeth Castillo.
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- [00:00]
Stephanie Ruhle
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- [00:50]
Peter Baker
Hello there Everybody. It is 4 o' clock in the east. I'm Stephanie Rule in for Nicole Wallace. And we start with breaking news. Following a disappointing new jobs report that showed cracks in the labor. Donald Trump decided he didn't like that message, so he went out and shot the messenger. Just a short time ago on social media, he made an alarming announcement that he directed the firing of the head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics. In his post, Trump attacked commissioner Erica McEntar McIntyre, excuse me. Claiming that the jobs numbers were, quote, being produced by a Biden appointee. He insisted without any evidence, quote, we need accurate jobs numbers. She will be replaced with someone much more competent and qualified. Important numbers like this must be fair and accurate. They can be manipulated for political purposes, end quote. It is here we should note that she was confirmed by the Senate in an 86 to 8 vote. Then Senator, now Vice President J.D. vance was one of those 86 as well. I want to share the moment. Our colleagues over at CNBC found out about this firing and tore the the President's reasoning to absolute shreds.
- [02:05]
Stephanie Ruhle
Let's. Let's tee up the most ridiculous conspiracy of all time. Okay, I got a few of the jobs numbers. I can assure you. No, let's. No, but let's. Let's do it. Let's do it. You have an election happening. I believe it was in November of 2024. Right. So if you're trying to be political and help out the Democratic Party and you're a Democratic statistician, tell me what the sense is to release In August of 2024 the idea that payrolls were 818,000 lower than previously reported. Would we be just idiots for doing that? The idiocy of the political conspiracy, it just defies the logic of even repeating it. I was going to use an expletive there, but it is really stupid. I don't even know, Steve, what the authority chain would be inside the labor coming. I don't think we've ever seen from the White House, at least not maybe back in like Harding's days or something, that there was some kind of order from 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue down to whatever street the Labor Department might be on. I mean, this is kind of an unprecedented move for an official that, let's be clear, 99.999% of us could not have identified on the street.
- [03:29]
Peter Baker
It is not hard to see why Trump was so upset with the jobs numbers. It was a double whammy for him. Not only did they show a turn in the labor market, just 73,000 jobs added in July, but they also issued newly revised numbers for May and June, which showed an even more pronounced deceleration in the jobs market, contributing to that dip, of course, Trump's tariffs. Just yesterday, he signed executive orders increasing rates on merchandise from about 70 countries. Most of those will take effect next week. And remember, when I say they're from 70 countries, those countries don't pay for it. We do. US importers, US companies will pay those tariffs and most likely pass that on to the U.S. consumers. And the markets know that that is why they reacted to all of this in a big, bad way. The closing bell moments ago was not pretty. The Dow tumbling more than 500 points on the day and the NASDAQ almost 500 as well. And that is where we start this afternoon with New York Times chief vitals correspondent and MSNBC political analys analyst Peter Baker, trader and investor Dan Nathan. He's the CNBC contributor and host of the on the Tape podcast and former director of the National Economic Council for Presidents Obama and Clinton, Gene Sperling. Gene, I start with you. It's no surprise that the President did not like these numbers. But as soon as I heard this news, I called two of the biggest investors I know on Wall street, both of whom are somewhat neutral on the president. And I got the same response. Somebody said, we are now operating like an emerging market. What is this, Argentina? And the second call, they said, this is how Stalin operates. Give us your reaction.
- [05:12]
Stephanie Ruhle
You can't underestimate how damaging this assault to the rule of law and our economic institutions are. Ironic, isn't it, Stephanie, that the Nobel economic prize in 2020 was exactly about the importance of the rule of law and economic integrity for growth and in our country. We are the country that's founding was based on Alexander Hamilton doing unprecedented things not just to protect our credit, but to essentially protect the financial word of the United States. And that has benefited us for generations. And I know all this stuff may seem complicated to people, but really not. You've got four or five people you could lend money or invest to. Four of them often lie, often fudge the numbers, often abuse the law. And one is always honest, independent with monetary policy, independent with the numbers they put out. Who are you going to trust? Who are you going to, you know, charge less to lend money? That is the benefit that we have received. And it's been not just in the dollar being the reserve currency, not just in our Treasuries being the safe haven of investment, but in people believing that the US was a place to make their future and invest. You now have not just this. You have this piling on an abuse and attack on the rule of law and economic integrity. You have the President constantly using the power of government to extort money from law firms, from private sector companies, from universities. You have an attack on the Federal Reserve that is unprecedented and could compromise its independence. And now our economic numbers may no longer be believed to be independent and with career excellent people. When I started in the Clinton administration, that's what people used to say about China's numbers. Now, as China's numbers gain more respect, President Trump hurts our respect more. This is damaging to our long term future, to investment, to lower interest rates, to jobs. And it's time for some serious Republicans and serious business leaders to say no more. Dan, through the lens of the market, this was the first time investors really started to pay attention to some of the funny business that's been going on. I think there was some cautious optimism about the potential for the labor market weakening. Way we saw, I don't think anyone expected the sort of revisions that we've had. Now, make no mistake about it, I mean, this weakness has a lot to do with the White House policy. If you think about the uncertainty in and around this trade war, and make no mistake about it, if you start to put these sorts of levies right on some of these countries that you really expected to have deals by now, that sort of uncertainty is going to cause the sea level suite in America to start laying folks off to be a lot more cautious about how they are spending money, whether it be Capex, an R and D. And then on the flip side of that, right, if you think about just what's been going on in the deportations and the just government job cuts and the like, Here there's just a lot of things that are pushing on economic growth or lack thereof. And then the last part about it is when you just think about where the government is on the spending front, we have this tax bill that's front end loaded. You could say, ok, well, we have the spending that's still going on. So there's an argument to be made that a lot of the offset that we have from the tariffs that you would have expected from this TAF bill have not hit and just the weakness in the economy that's going to happen here versus the risk of inflation, that's the thing that markets are going to start to have a hard time on. Today was the first time they've done that in three months.
- [09:14]
Peter Baker
Peter, what is the White House saying about this? I know this morning they had said that Scott Besant was leaving for vacation today. I got a sinking feeling he's going to come on back.
- [09:23]
Stephanie Ruhle
Well, look, they're saying that these are skewed numbers. They're following the the president's lead here and that these numbers can't be trusted. He's long criticized numbers that didn't go the he thought they ought to go. And he's threatened this in the past. Now he seems to be carrying it out. The larger implications beyond the economic points that we've just been talking about is to the quality of truth and facts in the government writ large. Right. If you're a government official, if you're a career official, you have just watched what's happening here and the message is don't produce facts or numbers that in any way contradictions or anger the president. Because if you do, you take a risk of losing your job. And that goes beyond the Labor Department, that goes beyond the economic sphere. That goes across the board. Look at what just happened the other day at the Smithsonian Museum of History. They took Donald Trump out of the exhibit on impeachments because they obviously knew that wasn't something he wanted to have highlighted in an American museum. And instead the exhibit now says there are only three presidents who were ever threatened with removal through impeachment. Andrew Johnson, Richard Nixon and Bill Clinton. Donald Trump, name not there, erased from the history of that moment. Did Donald Trump order that? We don't know that. But if you're a person working for the federal government, it might be in your interest, you think, to scrub history that way, to scrub the facts on labor statistics, to scrub facts on climate or name any other area. And it causes a ripple effect throughout government and it does cause a lot of questions about the information we're going to get now from the public sphere.
- [10:59]
Peter Baker
Dan, that begs the question, when are we going to hear from the business community say enough is enough? Right. You and I both talk to both investors, but people in corporate America who privately know that the tariffs have been a complete disaster know that the president's argument, how he views tariffs, is completely flawed. They laugh when they watch Scott Besant misrepresent trade policy because they know he knows the truth. But at some point are they going to step up and say, yes, the president will retaliate, he'll come for me if I speak out. But if they don't speak out and speak for the truth, what will it mean for the health of our economy?
- [11:37]
Stephanie Ruhle
Right. I think there's one man, and you know that man, his name is Jamie Dimon. He's the CEO of the largest bank on the planet. And you know, there's an article in the Wall Street Journal yesterday talking about how maybe there's been a little bit of a detente between Jamie Dimon and President Trump, that he has been to the White House two times in the last couple of months. It was also mentioned that back in April when things were going haywire in almost every risk market out there, Jamie Dimon went on TV and he talked about the potential of just this policy of really throwing the economy here, but also the global economy into a recession. They were talking about the volatility in the bond market, the volatility in currency markets. And supposedly that had an effect on President Trump. He pulled it back. He went full taco there. And so I think that someone like Jamie Dimon and a handful of other CEOs, I don't think the big tech CEOs, I think they've lost so much credibility. When you think about just how the they all lined up behind Trump on the dais at the inauguration. They all have a lot of self interest. But one of the hardest hit groups in the stock market today were the bank stocks. And when you think about that, that is a reflection of investor concern about future growth. And that's the one area where I would expect CEOs to come from the banking sector to really kind of lay it down on the line with all of this uncertainty in around tax and trade and all this other geopolitical stuff. Hey, it doesn't help. I saw a headline come out at like 230 that Trump is, I don't know, point some nuclear submarines over towards Russia for that to happen on a Friday afternoon after markets are already a bit Jittery. Those are the sorts of things that investors don't want to go home owning stocks or owning dollars and the like.
- [13:14]
Peter Baker
Peter we all know that the President wants to change the subject. So we're not talking about Jeffrey Epstein, but the headlines he's creating, the reality he's creating. He wants the world to share his worldview, and if we don't, he wants all of his messengers out of the building. I mean, that is truly how authoritarian regimes act. Are we going to hear from Republicans?
- [13:38]
Stephanie Ruhle
Oh, I don't know about that. There hasn't been much history of that in the last six months since he took office. Again, they've let a lot of these things pass. But, you know, the truth is you can change the numbers or change the official naming the numbers, and it won't change the reality in people's communities. Right. People know whether they've lost jobs or gained jobs. They know whether the economy is good or not. You know, one of the things that's in this job report that's fascinating is that manufacturing jobs have gone down now three months in a row. That's the area where President Trump has said he's most focused on restoring. And in fact, rather than restoring them, they're going the opposite direction. Now, that may be natural for all sorts of reasons, may not have anything to do with his policies, but he doesn't want people to know that. Well, guess what? If you're in a community where a factory is closing or not hiring or what, you're going to know that. And it's, you know, you can scrub the numbers all you want, but in fact, reality is still going to be reality.
- [14:29]
Peter Baker
Peter I know we're going to lose you, Jean and Dan, I'm not letting you lead just yet. Jean, I want you to, I want you to educate us because it's fair to say that lots of people, business leaders, investors, do get frustrated with the data, right. When we get these huge revisions month after month, it's a huge frustration. It does make people lose confidence or trust in these numbers. But that doesn't mean we should go fire the head of the department. Can you explain to us how the BLS works and why it is we keep getting these big revisions?
- [15:03]
Stephanie Ruhle
Well, you're absolutely right that when investors or ordinary people look at our numbers, they know that for technical reasons, adjusting for seasonality, sometimes going back and doing a better benchmark, which to compare the jobs to, can change things. We know that when we get our growth numbers, we actually get two revisions afterwards. So we know that there is that degree of uncertainty. But at the same time, what investors do know is that the numbers they hear are totally independent. They are the best possible numbers. Now, to improve our numbers, we should be doing the opposite of what Musk and Trump and Doji have done, which is to disinvest in our top career experts. We should be investing more so we could have a better payroll, a better household survey, see if we could make it more accurate. They're moving in the opposite direction. But I really have to say again that, that, you know, that caveat I mentioned is gigantic. And I don't mean to diminish either Peter's points that people will still understand how the economy feels to them or that Trump's tariffs have been bad for growth and bad for inflation. But if you get to the point, I mean, Stephanie, you know, you, your network, CNBC investors, they focus so much on those GDP and employment numbers. They give people the best available information on how to look at the economy, how to invest. If suddenly now, for the first time in our history, people look and say not only might there be a technical adjustment, but this might be political manipulated to serve the interests of the President. That does tremendous damage to our long term trust and economy. And I really want to say some of the other discussions are about the here and now. And the here and now is so important. But when you're doing things to damage the long term credibility of the US Word. The US as the dollar as the reserve currency, the US as the, as the safe haven trusted in a stor. When you're diminishing Alexander Hamilton's legacy, you're doing something that's going to hurt not just this month, but your children and your grandchildren.
- [17:39]
Peter Baker
And the bond market is going to be the one that tells us. Dan, I want you to explain this to us because there are some folks out there, put today's, the President's latest announcement aside, who have said when we heard about the tariffs months ago, we thought the markets were going to crack. They didn't crack. The economy seems resilient. I want you to explain to us, until now we haven't seen the market really crack because we now have trillion dollar companies in the market that overweight the market. But beneath them, we have all sorts of businesses that are suffering because of the tariffs. They're starting to suffer and it's going to get exponentially worse in the days and weeks and months ahead. When the President says he made a deal. Just because he made a deal doesn't mean it's a good deal. Certainly not for American companies or consumers.
- [18:25]
Stephanie Ruhle
Yeah, certainly not with China either. Right. When you think about some of those most important sectors, you're talking about those multitrillion dollar companies, a lot of them have to do with generative AI. Generative AI has been one of the biggest drivers from a capex standpoint in our economy over the last few years. So the China thing is important because we've gone back and forth with the largest market cap company in the world, that is Nvidia. They make the GPUs, the chips that go into these servers that train these models that everyone's going crazy about here. And so when you think about their AB to sell into China, this has gone back and forth. There seems to be a little bit of a tit for tat between China's rare earth materials that we need for a whole host of really important sort of things that we manufacture, or we need actually for our defense apparatus, or, you know, a whole host of other things and then access to our chips from Nvidia. Those companies have been driving the performance of the stock market for nearly three years. We're just getting through Q2 earnings season. Every publicly traded company reports their earnings four times a year. We're just getting through that. Other than the generative AI companies, there's been very few bright spots. We've seen autos that have been weighed down by the tariffs. We've seen airline stocks that have had a hard time from a growth perspective. We've seen defense stocks have had a hard time. There's plenty of other areas within technology. Retail is having a tough time. And the few instances where you've seen companies able to put up big numbers, it normally has to do with the fact that consumers are buying their products ahead of these tariffs that may come or may not come. There could be corporations that are buying inputs that go into their products before that. And we just saw that from the GDP print that came out a couple days ago, it was 3%. That was far better than the half a percent negative that we saw in Q1. That has to do with this pull forward. So again, if the tariffs are going to continue to weigh on growth, then we are going to have a situation where if yields stay kind of high and we have a weakening economy, it's going to be a real, really tough, tough back half of the year, I think for growth here in the US And I think you can extrapolate that if we were having a hard time, the rest of the world, which is also being saddled with these high taxes on their exports. We're going to see global growth really slow down in the back half of the year.
- [20:35]
Peter Baker
Get yourself in a time machine. If we find ourselves in slow growth with persistent inflation, you know what it's going to look like the 70s. The only good thing that happened in the 70s was disco. Gentlemen, thank you. We're going to leave it there. When we come back, more on the jaw dropping move to fire the head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Why? Because she accurately reported data about the President's struggling economy and he didn't like it. Senator Adam Schiff of California joins us for reaction. Plus, why on earth has Epstein associate Ghislaine Maxwell been moved from a prison in Florida to one down in Texas? Just days after meeting with Trump's former personal attorney, now the number two at the Justice Department? And later on in the program, a Republican congressman home for summer break might wish he was still in Washington after getting absolutely slammed by his own voters from what they are calling rubber stamping of a chaotic and cruel presidential agenda. We'll get into all of that and more when deadline what White House continues right after this.
- [21:42]
Stephanie Ruhle
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- [23:13]
Peter Baker
We are back with the breaking news we have been discussing since the top of the hour. Donald Trump today, in a stunning announcement, demanded the firing of the head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics after a weaker than expected jobs report. That is some economic numbers that he didn't like. As CNBC points out prior to Friday's report, Trump repeatedly has championed the strength of the labor market. After the June numbers had been released initially, the White House put out a statement calling it a June boom. Let's bring in Democrat from California, Senator Adam Schiff. Senator, the reason the United States is the envy of the world is because we have trusted economic data. It's because we had an independent central bank. And it's because we respect the rule of law. When that trifecta is put in question, it could send our economy and the respect we have from the rest of the world spiraling. What is your reaction to what happened today?
- [24:13]
Stephanie Ruhle
Well, I think that's exactly right. And I think we're already seeing that reflected in the job numbers. These are the worst three consecutive months, basically stagnant job growth, the worst since the pandemic. And if you go before the pandemic, the worst since the Great Recession. And what is Donald Trump's response? Let's fire the person who tells the truth, the American people, about the jobs numbers so that we can put someone else there who will lie on the president's behalf. Look, these tariff wars, tariffs on, tariffs off, have created such uncertainty that employers don't know whether to hire people. They don't know what their costs are going to be. And we haven't even felt the full brunt because Trump keeps pushing the can down the road even further. When those full tariffs are in effect, it's going to further suppress our economic growth and could send us into a recession. But on the good news side of things, Trump just got a third Air Force One. Trump is building a $200 million ballroom at the White House because the one he's got isn't big enough. So his personal economy is doing really well. But for average Americans, their prices are going to up. Their, their job prospects are going down. Our economic growth is not going anywhere. Manufacturing is not coming back. It is leaving. And more of the same is just going to be more hardship for the American people.
- [25:38]
Peter Baker
Sir, we know that President Trump is a showman. It's what he does. But we are talking about trust in economic data, trust in the US Government. When the likes of Argentina and Greece faked economic data, those moves led to major crises in those countries. Could that happen here in the United States? What are our checks and balances? We saw the president make this move today. Who knows who he's going to put in that seat? Who knows what information they're going to put out?
- [26:09]
Stephanie Ruhle
Well, that's exactly right. And this person that he just said he wants to fire was confirmed in an over overwhelming bipartisan vote. So what's going to happen now? Is he going to put someone there who's just going to tell the public what Donald Trump wants to have the American people hear, regardless of the truth? And are Republicans prepared to confirm such a person? Sadly, we have seen over and over again with the most unfit nominees that, yes, they're all too willing to confirm whoever the president wants. But once the country and the world lose confidence in the American economy, once they think we're making the numbers up, once they think we are no longer an ally because we're punishing them as we have been punishing Canada and so many other allies around the world, once they think investors around the world that they can't trust investments in the United States because our Justice Department only works for Donald Trump now, and he's vindictive and will retaliate personally, then the economy really suffers. You know, among the most extraordinary of these tariffs the president is imposing is a 50% tariff on Brazil, a country with which we have a positive balance of trade. Now, why is he doing that? Because he wants to support a fellow insurrectionist. In Bolsonaro, the former president is being prosecuted for trying to lead a coup. Is that how American economic policy is going to work now, as a lever to try to export, not democracy, but some kind of dictatorship? Our standing, sadly, is going to be impacted and is already around the world as people lose confidence in the economic and moral leadership, Democratic leadership of the United States of America.
- [27:57]
Peter Baker
What is it going to mean for our country if we see consequential position after consequential position after be filled by Trump loyalists rather than people who are loyal to the United States of America and our Constitution? It was during the transition that his now Commerce Secretary, Howard Lutnick, said, number one requirement for any job in this administration is loyalty to President Trump. That wasn't just talk. We're seeing it play out in real time.
- [28:23]
Stephanie Ruhle
Well, that's certainly true. I think what it's going to mean for the American people, among other things, among the hurt they'll feel in the economy, me is we'll feel a lot more like Russian citizens where we can't believe anything the government says, where we, you know, we essentially take the same view of administration officials as Russians take of the Politburo or Pravda. They know they can't believe anything from the state organizations. And it will mean that basically the civil service is eviscerated. We won't have professionals in different agencies. We'll have political hacks. And that is already manifesting itself as they roll out more and more of this project 2025. Frankly, I don't want to live in a thugocracy, a kleptocracy like Russia. We're going to see our corruption index go up and up and up as our rule of law deteriorates further.
- [29:18]
Peter Baker
Last question to you, sir. All of these things that the President is doing, he said he was essentially, he said he was going to do it on the campaign trail. The surprise is how many businesses, organizations, politicians, universities are capitulating.
- [29:35]
Stephanie Ruhle
Oh, it's so true. And this comes as, I think, a great shock to all of us that one after another, we see institutions folding. We saw ABC and CBS fold. We saw the Wall Street, I'm sorry, the Washington Post and the LA Times fold with its editorial policy. We've seen university after university fold. We've seen law firm after law firm fold. We're seeing our institutions giving way. And unless we find the collective strength to stand up and push back and fight back, there isn't going to be a university left or a lawyer left or anyone left, a media station left, willing to take on the administration if the administration can just bring the full force of the American government down on them. So we need to make no mistake about the path we're on. And frankly, what is so dispiriting to those of us in the Congress? The Congress could put a stop to all of this, to all of this. We have the power to do it, but it will take bipartisanship. And right now, Republicans remain in lockstep with this most destructive of presidents.
- [30:41]
Peter Baker
Sir, I'm out of time. But then I do have to ask, do you think the president's most recent announcement. Right. Firing this woman, do you think this will move the needle for some of your fellow Republicans in Congress to say, enough is enough?
- [30:56]
Stephanie Ruhle
Stephanie, Every time I've thought, okay, surely now Republicans will be moved to do something, say something they have disappointed. So I would hope so. But I think, frankly, it's going to take their constituents feeling the pain and when they get to the point where politically they fear their constituents more than they fear the president, that's what it's going to take for them, I think, to find up the, find the courage to stand up to him.
- [31:23]
Peter Baker
All right, sir, thank you so much for joining me. And it might not be taking on the president or the White House. Maybe it's just about telling the truth. I appreciate you joining me this afternoon. Still ahead for us, victims of the families of some of the victims of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell are reacting with horror and outrage that the government quietly moved Maxwell to a different prison, saying this thing reads just like a cover up. That story's next. If Maxwell were to receive a pardon at some point, what would that mean for you?
- [32:03]
Stephanie Ruhle
It would unwind everything that my sister and all the survivors fought for. It would be a disgrace of justice. It would be picking abusers over survivors Again.
- [32:25]
Peter Baker
In an emotional new interview, the family of Virginia Roberts Jaffrey, one of Jeffrey Epstein's most well known accusers, demanding justice and answers on the story that has embroiled Donald Trump in chaos and backlash for weeks now. Today, there are new questions. The attorney for convicted Epstein associate and longtime partner Ghislaine Maxwell says she has been moved from a low security federal prison in Florida to a smaller, less restrictive women's only federal prison camp in Texas where the majority of inmates are serving time for nonviolent offenses and white collar crimes. Jeffrey's family, along with the families of other Epstein and Maxwell accusers are calling it a clear message from Trump that, quote, pedophiles deserve preferential treatment and their victims do not matter. Meanwhile, Virginia Giuffre's siblings are asking how much Trump knew, outraged by this moment earlier this week when he suggested Epstein, quote, stole Jeffrey when she was just 16 years old as an employee at Mar a Lago.
- [33:24]
Stephanie Ruhle
I think she worked at the spa. I think so. I think that was one of the people. He stole her. And by the way, she had no complaints about us, as you know, none whatsoever.
- [33:36]
Peter Baker
What went through your mind when you heard that?
- [33:40]
Stephanie Ruhle
I think we were shocked by it, especially to use the term stolen because she's not an object, she's a person. And she was recruited by Maxwell. It wasn't stolen. A couple of years later, you know, he made a statement on Epstein and you know how he liked young girls. And so, yeah, it does make us question how much did he know.
- [34:17]
Peter Baker
Joining me now, New York Times deputy investigations editor David Enrich, a New York Times opinion writer and MSNBC contributor Mara Gay. David, your reaction to the comments from both Trump this week and the outrage and hurt from Virginia Jaffre's family?
- [34:33]
Stephanie Ruhle
Well, I mean, it is a very strange choice of words for someone to use in this context, and I can certainly appreciate and understand the outrage that her family must feel over that, especially since she died by suicide just a few months ago. And I think it is worth correcting the record that Trump's comments about what a terrific person Jeffrey was, I believe predated that happening. And so I might be wrong about that, actually. But I do think that there is. It's clear that there is a pattern here of Trump kind of changing his story and altering the fact a little bit. And he's clearly being very defensive, defensive about his connection to Epstein and his connection to the women and the girls who he was connected to through this.
- [35:18]
Peter Baker
Mara, your reaction to the pleas from Virginia's family?
- [35:24]
Stephanie Ruhle
Well, it's anguishing to listen to. First of all, her story is haunting, and there's just a sense, I think, for all of us watching this unfold and certainly for her family of. Of justice deferred or denied. There's still a lot of accountability that we've yet to see. And the questions remain about what the President knew about Epstein's behavior. I also think that I'm so grateful to her family for speaking out, and I'm glad that we're talking about her story today, because so much of the administration policies are dehumanizing and causing such violence and harm across the country, from the deportations just down the line to the attacks on government employees and national parks and so on. And it can be very easy to miss the actual human stories. And I think this is a case where you look at this family and you see the pain that they're going through. And it's very important, important to remember that Virginia was a human being. And the way the President is talking about her, as her family said, as an object, is really just at the heart of the cruelty of his administration and the way he conducts himself privately as well. And there's a long history of that. And so I'm sorry that we're having to talk about this. I feel grief for her family having to speak out. But I'm also grateful that we can restore this. This individual story and a sense of humanity here, because this does matter, it should matter, and the President wants it to go away.
- [37:15]
Peter Baker
David, what do you make of Ghislaine Maxwell, a convicted sex trafficker who committed these crimes for over a decade, suddenly getting moved to a less restrictive prison in another state after she spent nine hours meeting privately with the DOJ day.
- [37:31]
Stephanie Ruhle
Yeah, it really surprised me, to be honest with you. I mean, this whole sequence of events with Maxwell over the past couple weeks has really surprised me. And there is. If you had asked me a month ago if it was possible that the Trump administration would even consider becoming more lenient with someone like Maxwell, I would have said, you've got to be kidding me. And yet that's exactly what we're seeing. And it's very hard to avoid the impression that this, the move to a minimum security liberty prison is connected to the fact that she was having these talks last week with the top Trump administration official. And so I don't know if the connection is actually that or what was said in those meetings, but I think it's very hard for observers, for members of the public, and certainly for me personally to not see those two events as connected. And again, Maxwell is someone who's been convicted of helping Jeffrey Epstein sexually abuse girls. And that's the type of person that I think normally you would not think a politician would want to coddle or go soft on. And yet that's exactly what's happening. And I think it raises yet more questions about what is going on with the Trump administration in their handling of the Epstein saga in general and Ghislaine Maxwell in particular. And those are questions that Trump has obviously been trying very hard to kind of sweep away and move on from from. But this move to a nicer prison is only going to, I think, intensify those questions.
- [38:53]
Peter Baker
Her awful crimes now in the spotlight, and what happens after we're reminded of who she is and what she did? She gets moved to a lesser restrictive prison camp where you can get passes to leave and no electric fences. David and Mara, I want to continue this conversation. We have to take a quick break, but next we're going to have a little more of that interview with Virginia Jaffres family to remind you of what Ghislaine Maxwell did to this woman and so many others. A quick break. We'll be right back.
- [39:28]
Stephanie Ruhle
I'm a firm believer that you reap what you sow. If you're gonna put that kind of hate into this world, you should. It should be met with hate. And I'm sorry that she's uncomfortable, but she, she did that to herself.
- [39:50]
Peter Baker
That was the brother of Jeffrey Epstein accuser, Virginia Giuffre. Ghislaine Maxwell is now at a Texas prison, which is a different one from where she started her 20 year sentence, one where Elizabeth Holmes and one of the stars from the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City are also being held a very, very different place. We're back with David Enrich and Mara Gay. What is your reaction to that? Mara Ghislaine Maxwell, we said it before, is a convicted sex trafficker. She targeted and groomed vulnerable women. She committed these acts for over a decade. This is now in the spotlight again. And what happens? She gets moved to a place that's a prison camp with a real housewife from Utah.
- [40:33]
Stephanie Ruhle
I mean, I think we have a right as the public, as the family has a right to just ask why? What is the justification for this? You know, and we have to understand that America's prisons are their own byzantine system of justice and they are flawed as well. But the public deserves to know why. And, you know, one of the many traditions that Donald Trump has, has destroyed or damaged severely in this country is the public's right to know and the ability to get information from our government, which is funded with taxpayer dollars, to the American people. And so I just, as a, as a journalist, as a reporter, you just hope that this is something that the press corps doesn't let up about. Tell the American people why. What is the justification for this? And again, this family's anguish is hard to look away from.
- [41:32]
Peter Baker
It's not just this family's anguish. The public is demanding more information, David. And it's not just, you know, the president can go after what he calls the liberal media all he wants. It's his base. It's right wing media. They're the ones who have cared about this issue so much for so long, and they're not letting up. The fact that the president this week said he's allowed to pardon Maxwell, well, he just hasn't thought about it yet. How damaging would it be to him politically if he actually went through with it?
- [42:03]
Stephanie Ruhle
Well, before I answer that question, can I just say that in the previous block, I screwed up and I suggested that the chronology that the Giuffre family had said was wrong, and I was wrong. So, mea culpa, I think it is potentially very damaging for Trump to go soft on Maxwell at this point. And this is a woman who people across the political spectrum and certainly on the right have spent years treating like a villain because she was convicted of enabling Jeffrey Epstein's sex crimes against girls, and not women, but girls. And I think that it is going to be a really hard pill for a lot of people to swallow across the political spectrum if he, first of all the fact that he's already moved her to a nicer kind of country club prison. But I mean, the, I think, I think the concern that a lot of people have right now is that this might just be the first step. It's possible he will commute her sentence. It's possible he could pardon her. And first of all, if that were to happen, I think there would be a pretty severe backlash in a lot of quarters. And second of all, it would definitely raise a lot of questions that certainly we in the media would be demanding answers for about what she did to get that kind of special treatment in the first place. And I think we're already starting to ask those questions with today's transfer of her to a much nicer facility.
- [43:16]
Peter Baker
All right, David, thank you for joining us. Mara, great to see you as well. When we come back, a gut punch to journalism, children's education and rural communities. That's news coming up right after a short break. The Corporation for Public Broadcasting, which funds PBS and npr, announced today that they will be winding down operations just a month after Congress pushed through Donald Trump's request to spending cuts. Established by Congress decades ago as an independent nonprofit, its closure is expected to severely impact local member stations of PBS and npr, putting dozens of stations, particularly in rural America, at risk of shutting down completely. The CBP said they will begin, quote, an orderly wind down with the majority of staff positions eliminated by September 30th and a small transition team to remain through January of 2026. Many national PBS and NPR programs are expected to survive through once through other sources of funding, with PBS saying this shortly after the spending cuts were passed, quote, PBS News is not going anywhere. We will continue our work without fear or favor as we have for nearly five decades on the air. Up next for us, voter registration, excuse me. Voter frustration and anger may be reaching a boiling point point. We're going to show you what real outrage looks like at a Republican town hall when the next hour of deadline. White House continues right after this.
- [44:52]
Stephanie Ruhle
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- [46:23]
Peter Baker
I don't think he you're the right fit for us anymore.
- [46:28]
Stephanie Ruhle
I just said it's time to go. You just don't relate to most of.
- [46:36]
Peter Baker
Us anymore and you got to know.
- [46:37]
Stephanie Ruhle
When to step down. I think it started.
- [46:41]
Peter Baker
Hello again. It is five o' clock on the East Coast. I am Stephanie Rule and for my friend and colleague Nicole Wallace, a Republican congressman from Wisconsin, you might not know him, but now you will. Brian Style held an in person town hall last night and as you just heard, he faced a lot of angry constituents. He was met with boos and jeers from the crowd of about 250 people as the congressman voiced his support for some for for some of President Trump's key policies, things like tariffs, the budget bill and the administration's harsh immigration crackdown. And here's what an attendee had to say on the top the of of the deportation raids. Why are they wearing masks and why are they Unidentified.
- [47:30]
Stephanie Ruhle
What I see happening.
- [47:31]
Peter Baker
To our immigrant population embarrasses me and.
- [47:35]
Stephanie Ruhle
You have not raised a voice to complain about it.
- [47:38]
Peter Baker
Where do I see your leadership? I see no leadership.
- [47:42]
Stephanie Ruhle
I see following Trump 1% hundred, 100% of the time and Trump's lead.
- [47:49]
Peter Baker
We disagree to disagree. It was that last point, the following TRUMP 100% of the time that Style got the most heat for. Anger is boiling over with how congressional Republicans have completely abdicated their oversight responsibilities. They fall right in line with Donald Trump and his unpopular policies seemingly every single time, quote, quit rubber stamping a cruel and chaotic agenda, said Rebecca McCracken, a 68 year old resident of Salem, Wisconsin, as she and about 50 other demonstrators gathered outside the town hall. Stiles appearance last night was notable as the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel points Out for the fact that it was the first for a Wisconsin Republican since House GOP leadership in March advised members to avoid any of those in person events. Republican Congresswoman Stephanie Bice of Oklahoma actually faced backlash this week for holding a remote only town hall. A constituent called in and said, quote, without dodging my question or giving me the Okie dokie, can you tell me why you are not holding in person town halls where you can look your constituents in the face eye to eye and answer tough questions? These town halls, telephone town halls, are a joke and are screened, carefully screened. I had to pretend to be asking another question or I never would have gotten this question in bold. The congresswoman defended her choice to hold remote town halls. But what we're seeing is the anger and frustration of Americans reaching a potential tipping point. Here's more from last night's town hall in Wisconsin.
- [49:25]
Stephanie Ruhle
This is a listening session, and I came here with the understanding that maybe you could listen to me just for a quest, just for a statement. This is my opinion. I've been a resident of Walworth county for 13 years, and I have to tell you, I am so disappointed, I am so disappointed in how you represent us as the citizens of Walward County. Southeast Wisconsin has not been represented by you. President Trump seems to run southeast Wisconsin through you.
- [50:20]
Peter Baker
And that is where we start this hour with managing editor of the Bull Work and MSNBC contributor Sam Stein, plus MSNBC senior political analysis Matthew Dowd and host of Politics Nation, right here on MSNBC and president of the National Action Network, Reverend Al Sharpton. All right, Sam, let's start with you. As much as these Republicans wanted to hide from their angry constituents, they're always going to catch up with them. If these policies are so wildly unpopular, why on earth would these Republicans push them through? They won't get reelected.
- [50:57]
Stephanie Ruhle
Well, yeah, they're wildly unpopular. Part of the way to make them more popular is to show up and talk to your constituents and sell the policies. But they're not willing to do that, so they're forfeiting the real vehicle. They have to turn public opinion around. You ask the question of why would they do it to begin with? They do it because the constituents. Right. Because Donald Trump told them to do it. And this is what modern Republican is, is it's following what Trump wants. It's pushing the policies that he asked for. And what's terribly ironic, I suppose, is that the Republicans, we know that the Republicans know this is bad because on several occasions, Republicans are introducing legislation to undo the very things that they pass Primarily Josh Hawley, for instance, has introduced legislation to stop the Medicaid cuts from taking place, to help rural hospitals to give rebates to people who may be hitting from by the tariffs. This is all stuff that was because of what Trump did and what the Republicans in Congress supported. So they understand the unpopularity of the policies, but they're kind of hamstrung in how to deal with it.
- [52:02]
Peter Baker
But then the question is why are they doing it? Rev. Right. If Republicans realize going to town halls is bad for them and those town halls are their opportunity to sell their policies, policies isn't the result. Don't pass these policies. They don't work for your constituents.
- [52:19]
Stephanie Ruhle
I think that that's the logical explanation or one would assume would be where they would arrive. But they haven't. I mean you have to remember they are home a day early or so because Donald Trump wanted to have the House closed down so they could move on, hopefully move on in his mind Pastor Epstein situation. So these, it's like these people have, the Republican members of Congress have no, have no backbone at all. I mean you're going to close down the Congress. So a guy's name that may be or may not be on some papers of a scandal of the nature of Jeff Epstein and then you're going to go home having defended all of these deportations, having voted for that, having voted for this big beautiful bill that is an ugly bill that took away Medicaid from some of your constituents and snap and you thought you were going to get standing ovations and applause. I think that they went through the motions hoping for the best and got the worst and it's only going to get more worse. I think they're going to start shutting down having town hall meetings at all because I think they underestimated the kind of disappointment and outright anger their own constituents have.
- [53:38]
Peter Baker
Okay, then I'm naive because Matthew so let's say they shut down all town halls so they don't have to talk about their policies and let's say the president continues with what he did today, firing the commission of the bureau and labor statistics. So let's not show the American people accurate economic data. Let's hide the data, let's hide ourselves. It doesn't change the reality of Americans lives. We know how we're living. We know what our Medicare is like. We know what our education is like. You can't hide from that.
- [54:10]
Stephanie Ruhle
Yeah, I mean a couple of things on this first, I mean I think one, yes, they're following the bidding of Donald Trump. But I actually think it's worse than that. I think that takes responsibility, too much responsibility away from them as if Donald Trump wasn't there, they would be doing the right thing. I actually think these people want to get rid of Medicaid. Marijuana, get rid of Medicaid. It wasn't done. It wasn't like, oh, I don't to get rid of Medicaid, but I'm going to go ahead and do what Donald Trump wants. They wanted to give tax breaks to the billionaires. That's what they want. Even though Donald Trump is, yes, threatening them and telling them what to do. But it's also irresponsible leadership on their own part of supporting these policies and doing these things. So I think, yeah, we can blame Donald Trump. But individually these, these congressmen chose to do this and chose to make the policy choices that have the ramifications that they do. I mean, I think what Republicans are banking on are a couple of things in the course of this. First, if you're in a 30% Republican district, you don't worry about the unpopularity of, of the policy and you don't worry about what Donald Trump's done and you don't worry about that because you're likely to get reelected in a general election in a 30% or a 25% Republican district. The problem is for the Republicans is you're not, in my view, you're not safe anymore if you're in a 10% Republican district or even a 15% Republican district because we've seen, seen in a number of special elections, Democrats are overperforming by fit by around 15 points which means no one is safe in a 15% or less Republican district in the course of this. And so they, they are, they're, they're going to hide. I agree with the reverend on this and I agree with Sam on all what he said. They're going to hide. They're going to hope they could sort of do paid advertising, which is a total one way communication next fall and try to convince people of things otherwise. But the problem is, and I've said this before and I'll say it again, when you are supporting an unpopular president and being doing what an unpopular president is telling you what to do in a midterm election which is already perilous for the incumbent party and it's especially Paris is with a perilous, with an unpopular president on behalf of an unpopular political party and pushing an unpopular policy. It's a perfect storm of losing your election. And so they may Avoid town halls. And they may do all of that. That. But they may call a town hall an anecdote. And I'm not a supporter of determining what's going to happen by only anecdotes. But the anecdote follows all of the polling data, which is Democrats are upset, Independents are upset, Democrats have an enthusiasm over Republicans and that's the problem for next fall.
- [56:52]
Peter Baker
So rev elected Democrats right now, how should they play this moment?
- [56:56]
Stephanie Ruhle
I think that they ought to really put as much spotlight as they can on the fact that these Republicans are being treated in the way they are when they get home to these town halls without getting in the way of the spotlight. I think they have to be very strategic so it doesn't look like they are inciting the reaction, but they're making sure it's exposed. I had a mentor told me once, if you see a man at the edge of a cliff and he's about to go over, don't get close because you'll make a suicide look like a homicide. They've got to let them go over the cliff and make sure everybody knows that they went over the cliff without it looking like they pushed them.
- [57:37]
Peter Baker
Well, here's one way they're pushing themselves over the cliff. And the answer is tariffs. It was a hot button issue last night. Watch this.
- [57:47]
Stephanie Ruhle
My main concern is the tariffs that are coming up. I really feel that this is a terrible tax that's going to be placed upon the citizens of the United States. As we look at the broader tariff back and forth that's going on with the administration, this really, at its core, needs to be an opportunity to make sure that other countries are treating the United States fairly. The United States. I'm not looking. I want to be able to, want to be able to get through as many of your questions as we can. Work with our allies, put trade agreements in place. We've seen great success with this so far. When we talk about our allies, it seems we're alienate them beyond belief.
- [58:39]
Peter Baker
And a quick reminder, just because we sign or agree on a trade deal, just because you have a deal doesn't mean it's a good deal for the American people. And while people are celebrating, some saying, well, the tariffs could have been 40% and now they're 20, they are still significantly higher than where they were six months ago. And if you don't want to believe lawmakers, if you don't want to believe the media, well, then listen to Nike, Adidas, Procter and Gilmore, Walmart, Subaru, all companies warning that prices are Going up, Sam. Prices are going up. Republicans are going to have to answer for that, whether or not Donald Trump fires commissioners or the Bureau of Labor and Statistics or not.
- [59:17]
Stephanie Ruhle
Yeah. I think you're really wise to note, like the Overton window has shifted dramatically in the tariff conversation. Right. On April 2, we were looking at unprecedented historic levels of tariffs, and they've come down from there, but they're still pretty high. And that town hall was in Wisconsin, which is on the board, obviously, with Canada. And the tariffs level in Canada, correct me if wrong, is going to be 35%. That is an immense amount of trade that's going to be affected by Trump's economic policies. It's going to have directed impacts both in Wisconsin and nationally, obviously. And you're already seeing it. This is really a roll of the dice for Trump, a real roll of the dice. He won this election on two issues. One was immigration. The other was the cost of goods. The cost of goods, as you saw there in that town hall meeting, is top of mind for voters. But what was also top of mind for voters in those clips was immigration. And these two things are turning against the president. People are not happy with the tariffs. They're also not happy with the fact that ICE agents are going through communities, ripping people, affecting the economy in that way, too. So I think these are tool 2 dual threats to Trump's political brands. And these are going to be feeding a lot of voter anxiety and a lot of voter anger heading into the midterms.
- [60:32]
Peter Baker
Grev, you want to weigh in on this? I mean, at the end of the day, people vote on their economic health and wellness. People were frustrated with the handling of the economy during President Biden. Persistent inflation. It's only going to get worse. Worse.
- [60:47]
Stephanie Ruhle
It's only going to get worse. And I think what Democrats ought to be doing is really bringing the message home. They should get some of their financial supporters to put ads out on social media and on cable television having a particular product. This is what it cost before these tariffs. This is what you have to pay now. We need to drive the message home that you are paying for the tariffs. It's not about a foreign government. It's not about our allies. You're paying this because Donald Trump is picking and choosing based on his own personal whims, what countries he's going to have tariffs on, how high and how low. And at the end of the day, you're paying the tab. They need to drive that nail through the wood.
- [61:34]
Peter Baker
Matthew, what do you think?
- [61:37]
Stephanie Ruhle
Well, I'm glad we're having this conversation and Stephanie, you've been covering. There's no more perfect person to have this conversation about the economy than you. I mean, we had a lesson in this 100 years ago. It didn't work. Right. Smoot Hawley was 100 years ago. We're now in a global economy that is exceptionally integrated. Right. So this idea that one country can just make a decision and somehow not be impacted in a global economy is just fools. Aaron, in the course of this, we're already getting the receipts and I will add to what Rev said, where the receipts are, the prices are going up. They're going to continue to go up. We now have jobs report for the last three months, which was dismal. We, they actually retracted, they retracted the numbers from May and June by 200, 150,000 jobs that disappeared that supposedly were there, but now we understand they no longer are there. And I think that all of these receipts and a slowing gdp, I mean, this is Trumponomics. This is what's happening in the course of this. And all of these receipts were gathering and the jobs report showed that we're losing manufacturing jobs. So the whole idea that we're going to sort of impose these tariffs and bring businesses back here and they're going to hire people, they're not hiring people and we're losing manufactured jobs and the prices are going up. So I don't get what asset or what advantage they're going to sell. The Republicans are going to sell that Americans are achieving, achieving by this and that it's very clear at this point in time, Trump Trump's approval on the economy, on inflation and on tariffs. His disapproval is over 60% on all those issues. So the public's figuring it out and the receipts are coming in in Sam.
- [63:16]
Peter Baker
We'Ve seen industry after industry, you know, bend the knee or capitulate when it comes to President Trump. But as it relates to the tariffs, Scott Besson said just a few weeks ago, the American people don't necessarily, they're not necessarily going to pay the tariffs. Companies will decide whether they're going to eat the cost. Even if companies are holding it down for now, eventually they don't report to the president. Right. If you're the CEO of a company company, you've got your shareholders, you've got your debtors, you've got your customers and you've got your employees. The president of the United States, you don't want to piss him off. You don't want to get hit with regulations. You don't want to get hit with legal problems, but at the end of the day, they're not going to hold their prices down to please the president. Most companies can't.
- [64:02]
Stephanie Ruhle
Right. I mean, you yourself know that's not how capitalism works. Yeah. And it's not working right now. Right. I mean, there's been plenty of companies who've said they are going to have to increase prices because of tariffs. You can look online at a whole host of industries, coffee, clothing, retail. You see price hikes. I mean, it's like, it's not, we're not blind. You can see the numbers now. I, I have no doubt and that Trump will try to go out there and publicly shame, harass, bully companies into keeping prices low. That is his M.O. and I have no doubt that some companies will try to accommodate Trump to some degree by doing so. But the end of the day, say if it comes down to can we stay in business or not, they're going to choose to stay in business and they're going to pass the costs on to consumers and raise their prices. We went through this not so long ago, if you remember about a year and a half ago, maybe a little bit more, the Biden White House tried to shame corporations by saying that they were manipulating the post Covid economics and elevating prices. And it didn't work because ultimately companies had to answer to their shareholders. My guess is that the same is going to happen this go around as well.
- [65:12]
Peter Baker
Yeah, but there's one big difference, Sam. When the Biden White House tried to shame corporations for price gouging or overcharging people or not paying their Fair share, the CEOs of those corporations, I'm looking at you, Jeff Bezos spoke out and they went after Joe Biden and they said it was un American and they say he didn't support capitalism. Yet President Trump, who's doing significantly worse to these businesses, what are they doing? The writing of chapter checks. They're buying documentaries for $50 million starring his wife. So there's one thing that's happening that's very different now with corporations than did four years ago with Joe Biden.
- [65:48]
Stephanie Ruhle
Fair enough.
- [65:51]
Peter Baker
I like to end segments with Sam saying, fair enough. All right. Nobody's going anywhere. When we come back, erasing history. We need the Rev to weigh in on this. The Smithsonian removes references to Donald Trump's to impeachments. That story is next. And later in the program, when ICE came for her neighbors, she got involved. How one woman's story of activism shows how resistance to Trump's policies have evolved in his second term. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. We got a lot of news today. A respected American institution, the Smithsonian's National Museum of American History, has removed references to President Donald Trump's two impeachments from an exhibit. The Washington Post reports that the change was made after the Smithsonian did a content review after pressure from the White House and quote, the online companion for the display briefly mentions Trump's impeachments, but it does not provide any further information about the cases. A search of the history museum's collection For Impeachment yields 125Respond results for Johnson, Nixon and Clinton and a single impeach Trump button from a 2017 environmental protest. The Smithsonian said in a statement that, quote, a future and updated exhibit will include all impeachments. We're back with Sam Stein, Matthew Dowd and Reverend Al Sharpton. Rev. How can you tell the story of the American presidency without discussing the impeachment of Donald Trump?
- [67:26]
Stephanie Ruhle
You can't and you shouldn't when you think about the fact that if Bill Clinton or someone had done this, it would be the most outrageous scandal we could think of. But we've almost normalized Donald Trump just distorting history and telling lies about the present. The fact is this is American history. This is what happens happen, the good and the bad. And it ought to be that. And to in some ways compromise the integrity of the Smithsonian because this president doesn't want that in there is something that should be an outrage to all Americans.
- [68:09]
Peter Baker
Matthew, what's your reaction to the news?
- [68:13]
Stephanie Ruhle
I have two first is this reminds me of one of your kids. They put their hand in front of their eyes and say, you can't see see me. I mean, it's so adolescent. Like, I don't know, like, yeah, we know you got impeached. So just because. But he's really like an employee. He's like an employee that shows up, that's applying for an important job, right? And the, the, the employer does a background check on the guy and they interview the guy and the guy and the employee hands him a resume and he looked, the employer looks at the resume and he's like, well, weren't you convicted of, you know, three felonies? And the employee says, well, it's not on my resume. Well, weren't you arrested five times? We have this thing, well, it's not on my res. Resume. I mean, the reality exists regardless of what Donald Trump or his minions. And I'm sure this had to do. Somebody trying to impress Donald Trump at the White House, which is so, you know, ridiculous. Somebody's in there and say, hey, I got your impeachment removed from the Smithsonian, as if it didn't happen in the course of this. It, it is so, one, it's corrupt, but two, it's so incredibly adolescent that he thinks that somehow if he holds his hands over his eyes, guys, no one sees him.
- [69:20]
Peter Baker
It may be adolescent, Sam, but erasing history is also what happens in dictatorships.
- [69:27]
Stephanie Ruhle
Yeah, I mean, I totally agree with Matthew here. It's, it's ridiculous. As if, you know, everyone's getting their history on the American presidency from the Smithsonian and yet this matters, right? Like the idea that you can just erase or expunge records at institutions, you know, it is dictatorial. It is. And we're seeing this across the board, obviously, today with the firing of the BLS commission. I mean, this is just another example where if he doesn't like the data, if he doesn't like the history, what does he do? He goes and he tries to erase it, literally. And so I find this all very troubling. I find it rather pathetic, and I find the slippery slope we're on to be concerning, because what are we supposed to trust anymore? We have to have institutions in which we can trust, and Trump is systematically going and destroying them. And that's the Smithsonian, that's bls. What else? I mean, academia, law, it is very troubling pattern we're seeing here.
- [70:25]
Peter Baker
Well, I actually want to show that, like, if you look at sort of the big picture of what we're seeing happen, like, almost day after day, the institutions that are capitulating, the organizations that are bending the knee, we're seeing it at a steady pace since President Trump took office. Matthew.
- [70:44]
Stephanie Ruhle
Well, yeah, I mean, I mean, it's, yes, he's, he's being a dictator, and he's doing what dictators normally do, normally do in the course of this. But what's amazing is, is they, I forget that we're in the 21st century where, like, stuff's on video, like, where, you know, he actually signed his name to things or he actually is aware, maybe this worked in his real estate deals in the 1980s, where he could deny he ever said something or whatever, but we're in the information age. Yes, it's disturbing and yes, as I said, it's, it's the work of an autocrat in the course of this. But it's, what's amazing to me is they, and I guess that they, they, they think their supporters are so gullible, that they can just say that didn't happen. And when, like, their eyes say, you know, what are you going to believe me or your lying eyes? And a lot of his supporters are going to believe him.
- [71:36]
Peter Baker
All right, well, then let's look at this chart, the recount. Put together a chart that sort of shows all of the different organizations that the president has basically shaken down. Universities, law firms, media tech companies. Reverend, is there any sign that the president is paying a political price? Because this shakedown, if you total up the number of dollars he's brought in, that's a big point of pride for him. He's thrilled to, I think that there's.
- [72:04]
Stephanie Ruhle
No sign that he's paying a political price for it yet. But I think that as we begin to see people openly rebel at not only the town hall meetings, but in other ways, when they start filling their own pocketbooks, being in many ways reduced in terms of the kinds of monies they're going to have to spend. And when we see people questioning that now, the deportation, we've seen people in red states saying, wait a minute, we thought you were talking about criminals, not the guy that was working on the farm with us that we need. This may ultimately lead to a political price. We haven't seen it yet, but the whole show is not over for Donald Trump.
- [72:50]
Peter Baker
Certainly not. All right, Sam and Matthew, thank you for joining us this afternoon. Rev, I'm not letting you leave me just yet. When you come, come back. How ICE raids in Los Angeles that ripped families apart spurred activists across the city to get involved, activists who had never even held up a sign before. That story is next.
- [73:14]
Stephanie Ruhle
We are a group of people that for the most part grew up in Pasadena, if not living here, and noticed and felt the fear, felt the terror, felt the hostility that ICE was causing here. And so we decided to get up, get on our feet and go against.
- [73:36]
Peter Baker
Them, save our people, because only the people save the people. That is Elizabeth Castillo. And she and her neighbors have been organizing to protect their community outside of Los Angeles from, from Trump's mass deportation plans. The New York Times, Michelle Goldberg writes this about Elizabeth. Quote, elizabeth Castillo wasn't an activist until Immigration and Customs Enforcement started taking away her neighbors. It all began in June after Donald Trump directed Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents to sweep la, then used scattered violence at protests and of ICE tactics as a pretext to send in the military. Castillo felt her working class neighborhood in Pasadena was under siege. It was just chaos, she said. And you can see, you can hear, you can feel the Fear, the intimidation. You could feel the terror. This summer, when ICE started grabbing people from her community off the streets, she felt she had to act. She started getting up before dawn to patrol her apartment complex. Then she contacted the National Day Labor Organizing Network, which runs a nearby job center. Through it, she was plugged into a city wide network of people, people who are constantly tracking ICE's activities. Quote, Everyone is protecting each other right now, and we can see it, we can feel it, said Castillo. I don't know, we feel like we're the sheriffs in town. Joining me now, Grupo Auto Defense organizer Elizabeth Castillo herself. And Reverend Al Sharpton is back with us. Elizabeth, tell us about your decision to get involved. Political activism was certainly not in your normal history.
- [75:14]
Stephanie Ruhle
No, it wasn't. So what sparked me to get involved was, like I said, the fear, the hostility and the terror that you could feel, you can sense was different. Our streets were different, our neighborhoods were different. It was in the air. It just didn't feel right. It didn't feel normal. And so I kept seeing the new not, not even the news that you just hear words. Somebody got kidnapped around the corner, you would hear. You can hear the people screaming. And so I became angry and I just got up and started moving.
- [75:50]
Peter Baker
You've experienced firsthand how deportations tear families apart. Your husband was deported back in 2012. What was that like for you?
- [76:00]
Stephanie Ruhle
It was. It's a long lasting trauma, especially for my children, having to travel between two countries, countries not being able to understand why was the hardest part having two different homes, because we had our home here in California, in Pasadena. Them not understanding. We try to make it as peaceful as possible for them, but they still remember the long hours that we would spend crossing the border, the changes as soon as you cross the border, how different it is, and the separation from their father. It was difficult.
- [76:42]
Peter Baker
Elizabeth, we've seen ICE agents threatened bystanders who are filming them or who try to intervene. Are you afraid at all that your, your involvement could put you at risk?
- [76:54]
Stephanie Ruhle
Honestly, no, I'm not afraid. And I think that's one of the reasons that I became involved. I don't feel fear. I feel anger. I feel as if I need to do something. A lot of us are doing something and our voices are loud. Our voices are extremely loud. Our presence is known and our presence will continue to be known. I don't feel fear.
- [77:27]
Peter Baker
What do people who are trying to keep their families safe during this mass deportation period, what do they need to know?
- [77:33]
Stephanie Ruhle
Know they. That they belong in our community. We need to protect our community. There's a space for them in our community, and we will protect them and we will continue to take care of each other.
- [77:51]
Peter Baker
American support for the president's immigration policies have plummeted once they've seen the human cost of mass deportation. Our. Are you noticing a difference on the ground? Because when President Trump was running for reelection, immigration was, was a top issue for him, and he got a lot of support.
- [78:14]
Stephanie Ruhle
Here. We have, we have a lot of positive support. We have a lot of positive support from the community. We try not to listen to any negativity and, and to be honest with you, everything feels very organic. Everything feels very organic. Sometimes, as much as political as this may be, I feel that sometimes the community is so, so absorbed with stress and worry that they are just. A lot of us are just too busy protecting each other and keeping each other safe.
- [78:56]
Peter Baker
Everything feels organic. Rev, you know, activism best. Is that how activism works? Is that activism at its finest?
- [79:04]
Stephanie Ruhle
That's probably the most effective activism. Because if you take someone like Elizabeth, who doesn't have a political agenda, who doesn't even have a lot of known views before this involvement, it's hard to say she's doing this for this reason or those that are with her. And most movements that have moved this country forward have been organic movements, where you may have some that have been involved, like me out front, but it's the organic rising of people that really change things. And I think Elizabeth symbolizes that. And I think the purity of it, saying that I'm seeing something wrong. I'm not Republican, I'm not Democrat, I'm not forgetting against Trump, I see something wrong. That purity, I think, is what's going to turn this issue around.
- [79:53]
Peter Baker
All right, Elizabeth. Al, please stick around. We're going to take a quick break. Don't go anywhere. There'll be more. Deadline, White House. On the other side of the break, what did the bystanders do?
- [80:09]
Stephanie Ruhle
They were, I'm a New Yorker, bone on bone, and we're tough people here. But I saw cowards. And I hate to say that, as somebody who loves the city.
- [80:25]
Peter Baker
What did you want to see? And what, and what, what disappointed you?
- [80:33]
Stephanie Ruhle
Obeying to authoritarianism, to authority that was out of line, pissing on the Constitution. And I, they came up like, I don't care. I don't care.
- [81:00]
Peter Baker
That was Nicole's interview with New York City baseball coach Newman Wilder, who stepped in when ICE agents began to question members of his youth baseball team. We're back with immigration activists Elizabeth Castillo and Reverend Al Sharpton. Al, you have seen a lot in your life. That baseball coach right there, what he's experiencing, what his team is experiencing, what Elizabeth is working on in la. Did you think you would see this in your lifetime?
- [81:31]
Stephanie Ruhle
No, I didn't. And I am absolutely outraged that more of us are not involved, because I think the coach put it right. This is urinating on the Constitution. If we let ICE agents or any other department of law enforcement just openly decide they're going to violate everyone's rights, then when does it come to your door or my door? This is outrageous. This is not a immigration issue. It's a human rights issue. As far as I'm concerned, you don't have the right to violate people like that and say that you're guilty of being here illegally until you prove yourself innocent. And that's what they're doing. They're making anyone of a certain language or a certain color or coming from a certain place in the world prove their innocence. And we will take you from your families, we'll incarcerate you, will rob you of any kind of life you have until you prove your innocence. And that is not what this country should stand for.
- [82:35]
Peter Baker
Elizabeth, what do you say to people who want to make a difference and stand up for what they believe in, but they're afraid right now, justifiably afraid.
- [82:47]
Stephanie Ruhle
We can all make a difference. We can all make a difference. All we have to do is show up. All we have to do is show up. They will feel our presence. Presence. And we're proving it. I'm just an old kid. I'm not a kid anymore, but I'm just an old kid from who grew up in these streets, a vulnerable community. For what's going on right now and the amount of change that has happened since we've been involved. We're all members of this community. We're all community members. That group up here, we're born and raised in these streets. This is our home and we need to stand up and defend it. As shy as we can be, as afraid as some of us may be, the smallest presence will make a huge difference.
- [83:37]
Peter Baker
Rev. The President's not going to stop even when his poll numbers go down as it relates to immigration. Look at the big beautiful bill. Look at the amount of money they've just dedicated to ice despite its unpopularity. The President, Stephen Miller. They're going full steam ahead. Is there anything that is going to derail or slow down this mission from this administration?
- [84:01]
Stephanie Ruhle
I don't know that this administration will be slowed down, but I think that if we keep going that the Congress and others will have to get in step. We have the midterm elections next year. You know, the most successful, powerful, historic movements are those that have strong, immovable enemies. It took nine years from Rosa Parks sitting in the front of the bus in Montgomery, Alabama, to get the 64 Voting Rights Act. She sat down in 55. It didn't become federal law until 1964. So in order for movements to succeed, you need the Elizabeths. That's not counting votes, not counting ballots, but doing what is right. Right. And if those that are doing what is right are stronger than those that are depending on their power, it may take longer, but you're going to win right over always overpowers wrong.
- [84:57]
Peter Baker
The light always outshines the dark. Elizabeth, what's next for your organization?
- [85:03]
Stephanie Ruhle
This is just the beginning. We're just getting started. This is just the beginning. We're just getting started. They lit up a fire that they are not going to put out in us. Slowly but surely, more people are getting involved. We just had a huge block party where it, it was close to a thousand people showed up in our city and we experience a sense of joy, unity. That again, it's, it's a feeling that you feel that we can, it's, you have to be here, you have to be present, present to feel the difference of what can happen when we come together.
- [85:44]
Peter Baker
Amen to that. Elizabeth, thank you for joining us. We really appreciate you sharing your story. Reverend AL Always good to see you. We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back after this. At a time when we are bombarded by images of immigration raids on American streets. This one broke through a gardener in Southern California going about his day when he was forcibly detained by masked ICE agents. That man, a father of three U.S. marines, is Narciso Barranco. He was detained for three weeks. He has now been released. And he sat down with our very own Jacob Sobra for an exclusive interview. It is all part of next week's episode of the Best People. You can watch it starting today. Just scan the QR code on your screen screen and subscribe to MSNBC Premium. And a quick programming note, 9pm Eastern tomorrow night here on MSNBC, you can catch Nicole's the Best People interview with Bulwarks. Tim Miller.
- [86:39]
Stephanie Ruhle
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