"Hegseth is asking the Senate for money"

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Hegseth is Asking the Senate for Money"

Podcast: Deadline: White House
Host: Nicolle Wallace (MSNBC NOW)
Date: July 22, 2026
Episode Focus: Senate Hearing—Trump Administration Requests Supplemental War Funding

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the high-stakes Senate Appropriations Committee hearing where Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth requests $80 billion in emergency war funding for President Trump’s ongoing war in Iran. The hearing marks Hegseth’s first testimony before legislators in months amid mounting military casualties, a deepening budget crisis, and surging public disapproval of the conflict.
Nicolle Wallace anchors live coverage, joining a panel of experts as they dissect the testimony, scrutinize the administration’s strategy, and reckon with the war’s human and political costs.

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Key Discussion Points

1. The War’s Escalating Costs and Public Opposition

• Context: With the war in Iran deadlocked and increasingly unpopular (only 29% public support), the administration is seeking vast new appropriations as existing funds dwindle.
• Deaths and Casualties: Names of American service members killed are read aloud; over 18 deaths and hundreds wounded reported.
• Senate’s Mood: Bipartisan frustration erupted over murky objectives, funding misuse, and evasive administration answers.

Quote [11:20]:
“There's a herd of elephants in this room. And what we're seeing is just a horrible presentation by the secretary of Defense… instead, Secretary Hegseth is wanting to just basically do a hand wave about how important the president's priorities are and how bad the last administration is. This isn't the time or place for that.”
— Gen. Mark Hertling

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2. Hegseth’s Justification and Pushback

• “Peace through Strength” Pitch: Hegseth frames the request as part of a generational $1.5 trillion “America First” military investment (05:29).
• Senate Skepticism: Senators, notably Shaheen and Gillibrand, grill Hegseth for seeking new funds while billions from previous appropriations remain unspent.
• Evasive Answers: Hegseth repeatedly sidesteps direct queries about strategic goals, metrics for success, and accountability for past spending.

Quote [05:29]:
“This is a peace through strength package… a generational investment… to deter adversaries like Russia and China.”
— Secretary Pete Hegseth

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3. Undefined Strategy and Shifting Objectives

• Confused Endgames: Senators and commentators bemoan the shifting rationale for the war—initial regime change, now nuclear weapons containment.
• Senate Pressures for Clarity:
  • Sen. Chris Van Hollen [52:46, 53:29]:
    • “I think the American people to deserve a definition of what it means to win in Iran… The president said on March 24, and I'm quoting, We've won this war. This war has been won. Do you know what the president meant by that back in March?”
• Hegseth’s Response [55:06]:
  • “You asked me what the overarching objective is, and I would say ensuring Iran never has a nuclear weapon. That's been clear from the President from day one.”
• Panel Analysis:
  • Tom Nichols and Paul Rykoff underscore the administration’s narrative-whiplash and inability or unwillingness to define “victory” in tangible, strategic terms.

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4. Civilian Harm, International Law, and Lack of Transparency

• Civilian Targets: Probing from Sen. Merkley and Sen. Kaine about strikes on civilian infrastructure (e.g., desalination plants) leads to hedged answers and vague assurances about legal reviews.

• International Law Questions (24:25):

  • Kaine presses: “It'd just be nice to have you say yes, because this is international law. If you understand international law.”
  • Gen. Dan Kaine: “I've got a lot of lawyers that help me understand.”

• Injury Reporting Shortfalls: Coverage of NYT reporting reveals potentially dozens of unacknowledged US casualties with the Pentagon accused of underreporting (71:40).

Quote [27:55]:
“He was hesitant to say the real things we all suspect. He feels because he knows that big boss is watching. And I was especially concerned… about those answers on civilian targets. Not that General Kane gave the wrong answers, but the hesitation demonstrates…that there's clearly tension behind the scenes.”
— Miles Taylor

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5. Erosion of Civil-Military Trust and Expert Critique

• Culture War Rhetoric: Both expert guests and senators show dismay at Hegseth’s conflation of military service with political loyalty—contradicting US military ethos.
• Expert Consensus: Multiple commentators, including Mark Hertling and Tom Nichols, stress that the administration lacks the institutional seriousness and transparency required in matters of war.

Quote [13:52]:
“Most of these Cabinet secretaries, they're not good at their jobs. Most of them are not qualified for their jobs. And Pete Hegseth…is showing us yet again a staggeringly unqualified for his job.”
— Tom Nichols

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6. Senators Demand Accountability and Clear Metrics

• Budgetary Concerns: Persistent questioning about why unspent funds can’t be used; calls for justification amid looming shortfalls in operational funding.
• Demand for Realistic Options:
  • Sen. Mike Rounds (56:12):
    • Expresses lived experience of sending troops to war. Insists on options that bring troops home quickly rather than open-ended presence.

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7. The Human Cost and National Morale

• Reading the Names: Wallace and Rykoff list the names of the fallen, spotlighting the breadth of loss across America (65:30).
• Public Backlash: 70% opposition among Americans; commentators draw comparisons with the Vietnam War’s gradual souring, noting this war’s rapid plunge in public support.

Quote [70:19]:
“It means they don't support what we're doing. I mean, it's so basic, but still so outrageous…Even this hearing today pisses me off because…they’re not even talking about casualties. …They’re not transparent about the objectives or the casualties that have been suffered.”
— Paul Rykoff

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8. Panelists’ Memorable Insights

• On Governance and Oversight:
  • “First you commit the country, then you commit the troops. If you're going to do it right. Today is what happens when you commit the troops first and you don't commit the country and you don't commit Congress.”
    — Paul Rykoff [61:47]
• On Process and Accountability:
  • “If you can't answer [what winning means], then you don't know what you're doing and you don't know why you're putting people's sons and daughters in harm's way.”
    — Tom Nichols [74:49]
• Critical of Process:
  • “They circumvented the entire system. And now…they're there next to the Agriculture Secretary talking about meatpacking. Like this is how broken our system is…”
    — Paul Rykoff [70:19]

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Notable Quotes & Timeline

• Hegseth's Defense of Massive Funding:
  • [05:29] “This is a peace through strength package. That's what 1.5 trillion has always been about...” — Hegseth
• On War’s Lack of Clear Endgame:
  • [53:29] “I think the American people to deserve a definition of what it means to win in Iran…” — Sen. Chris Van Hollen
• Senate Exasperation at Evasion:
  • [76:08] “You said that you made the missile program…made combat ineffective Iran's entire ballistic missile production capacity…So why are there missiles left to hit Jordan and result in the loss of life of our brave men and women?” — Sen. Gillibrand
• On Civilian Target Legality:
  • [24:25] “It'd just be nice to have you say yes, because this is international law. If you understand the international law.” — Sen. Kaine

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | Notes | |-----------|----------------------------------------------|--------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:00 | Wallace sets the scene | Background on Hegseth’s testimony, war status | | 03:56 | Hegseth describes blockade, military ops | Iran, MoU, ship seizures, tactical benefits | | 05:12 | Debate over new funding | Hegseth, Kaine, funding rationale, AI, deterrence | | 07:57 | Pushback on spending and accountability | Sen. Shaheen challenges Hegseth | | 13:52 | Tom Nichols: critique of Hegseth’s skills | Panel expert sharply dismisses SecDef credentials | | 21:00 | Gen. Kaine grilled on risks, civilian targets | Senator Kaine on law and target selection | | 27:55 | Miles Taylor: Politics over substance | Observes White House instructions overshadow truth-telling | | 41:36 | Sen. Schatz: “tell my constituents why” | War objectives unfulfilled, rising costs, still at stalemate | | 55:06 | Hegseth pivots to nuclear rationale | Objective redefined from regime change to nuclear containment | | 65:30 | Wallace reads name of the fallen | Memorializing individual lives lost in the war | | 70:19 | Rykoff: On military morale & transparency | Laments lack of accountability for wounded/dead counts | | 75:10 | Gillibrand presses Hegseth on contradictions | Challenges on changing war messaging |

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Conclusion & Panel Reflections

• Theme: The key motif is a striking disconnect between the administration’s unmoored, politically-driven war rationale and the Senate’s growing bipartisan demand for oversight, strategic clarity, measurable outcomes, and basic transparency about costs—both human and financial.
• Panel’s Tone: Candid, exasperated, and deeply concerned. The prevailing sentiment: the administration’s approach “lacks seriousness” and exemplifies how not to run a war or treat a democracy’s obligations to its troops and people.
• Public Backlash: The military cost mounts as public patience vanishes. Experts warn of a war continuing “on autopilot” unless Congress acts—with the hope that transparent hearings, like this one, might finally force the administration to reckon with political and ethical realities.

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Transcript

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[Nicole Wallace]

Hi there everybody. It is just after 4pm in the east. We are going to return to Capitol Hill to watch what is taking place there in just a moment. Pete Hegseth is testifying. He is before the Senate Appropriations Committee asking for money for Donald Trump's deeply unpopular and deadly war with Iran. As that war appears to be spiraling out of the Trump administration's control, its popularity plunging and and money and munitions for it running low. Pete Hegg says testimony today represents the first time he's answered senators questions about the conflict in months, and it comes amid a rather dire budget crunch. The Washington Post reports this quote the Pentagon faces an urgent budget shortfall caused largely by the war in Iran, with some critical lines of funding set to run out within weeks, even as Donald Trump escalates the conflict with Tehran. That is according to lawmakers and current and former U.S. officials, the Trump administration is seeking $80 billion with a B to cover the cost of fighting and to replenish the depleted weapons supplies. Despite Donald Trump's money problems, he is still eyeing a potential escalation of the war with Iran. On that, Axios reports this quote Trump is nearing a decisive fork in the Iran war, with US and Israeli officials envisioning only two viable endgames. Option one pursue a new 10 day ceasefire aimed at reopening the Strait of Hormuz. Option 2 Launch a massive joint military campaign with Israel to force Tehran's capitulation. Trump hasn't made a decision yet, but officials believe the next few days will determine which path prevails with little room left for the grinding open ended conflict now paralyzing the Gulf. And while Donald Trump contemplates getting us into or trying to get us out of the kind of forever war he vowed never to involve the United States in without any money to pay for it, American troops and their families are paying the ultimate price, making the ultimate sacrifice. Sergeant Michael Emanuel Swinton, 30 years old of Fayetteville, North Carolina, has been identified today as one of the soldiers who was killed in action over the weekend. His mom spoke to local news yesterday and said this, quote, he loved his job, he loved his country, and he loved the leadership in this country. He deserves to be honored. He loves his children and he loved his wife, she said. Pete Hegseth on Capitol Hill today being forced to answer for Donald Trump's growing quagmire is where we begin today. Watching along with us for the duration, staff writer at the Atlantic, Tom Nichols is here. He's a professor emeritus of national security affairs at the U.S. naval War College. Also joining us, military analyst Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling is here. He served as the commanding general of the US army in Europe. I'm going to come to you in a second. Let us listen in for one more second here.

[Senator Kaine]

The pressure on and achieve our objectives. Tell us where we are in getting that accomplished.

[Secretary Pete Hegseth]

Senator, I think that's a really good point. That's effectively what we did to create the pressure that led to the circumstances of the mou, which was we're running that, running a route where ships and we did it covertly in cooperation with Gulf countries and others who were willing to take some of the risk with our protection and then maintain the blockade. So effectively oil is coming in and out, oil prices are coming down, but our blockade is staying. And the pressure is mounting on Iran. That's something we have done and can continue to do. We moved into an MoU where Iran said we won't shoot at shipping. And then they turned the IRGC turned around and decided to start shooting at commercial shipping again, at which point the president, I mean as he should, cannot tolerate that. And so we respond as he said 10 times you shoot at ships, we're going to shoot at you overwhelmingly, which we have been doing now for, I believe it's a tenth consecutive evening. So consequences come with the willingness to shoot at commercial shipping. Our blockade has been reimposed and is effectively impenetrable. We seized a ship inside the Arabian Gulf as well. So there's a lot of different angles to it, a lot of levers we can pull. And ultimately a lot of the strikes that Admiral Cooper and CENTCOM have been undertaking are taking Iran's ability to see and sense away in the Strait of Hormuz, which has tactical benefits for us.

[Senator Kaine]

And that's what this funding is about. This funding is about making sure that we and our allies can operate in the Strait of Hormuz, which helps bring down energy prices for every single American consumer, and that we force Iran to meet our objectives. Isn't that what this package is all about?

[Secretary Pete Hegseth]

This is a peace through strength package. That's what 1.5 trillion has always been about, a generational investment. As the Chairman alluded to a step change moment. We need to be able to do it at speed, at scale, with autonomy, with AI, with exquisite high cost and low cost, to be ahead and stay ahead so that you're not just able to do what we need to do in the Strait of Hormuz, but deter adversaries like Russia and China from getting involved in future contingencies.

[Senator Kaine]

And just General Kaine for any follow up that you would like on that issue.

[General Dan Kaine]

Sir, I wouldn't have anything to add.

[Senator Kaine]

Okay, again, thank you. And thank you to all of our men and women in uniform. We appreciate them so much.

[Senator Shaheen]

Senator Shaheen. Thank you, Madam Chair. Secretary Hegseth, since you last testified before this committee, we finally received the spend Plan for the 400 million FY26 appropriation for Ukraine security assistance. This funding was passed back in January and now there are only three months left in this fiscal year. And while I appreciate that we now see what most of the funding is intended for, I just heard from the CEO of one of the manufacturers of the defense articles that are contained in the SPIN plan that they not only haven't received funding, but they haven't even seen a contract. So when are we going to see a contract for those defense articles that are contained in the SPIN plan? For Iraq? I'm sorry. For Ukraine.

[Secretary Pete Hegseth]

For Ukraine. Senator, I'll have to get back to you on the specifics of the timeline of that. I'll talk to our policy shop as well as the EUCOM commander, determine where that's at.

[Senator Shaheen]

Well, you've told this committee that you've barely spent half of the $150 billion in reconciliation funding. And if you still have 75 billion available, why are you asking the American people to absorb the cost of a war they don't support instead of asking for transfer authority for unspent reconciliation funding? Especially if you can't even get $400 million in Ukraine funding at the door.

[Secretary Pete Hegseth]

As I mentioned earlier, Senator, that money from the one big beautiful bill is otherwise allocated to the rebuilding of our military with priorities of the president like Golden Dome for America and hypersonics and other munitions investments that we made up front as we tried to adjust the Biden budget into an America first budget. And so reallocating that away from those priorities is Robin Peter to pay Paul. Those are allocated to rebuild.

[Senator Shaheen]

But my point is, and ultimately we're committed, if you can't stick on a timeline that makes sense, why do you need to come back and ask for more money? Wouldn't it be better to spend money that you already have? And one of the things I noted was, or at least I think that this supplemental doesn't include funding to repair damage to our bases or to our military infrastructure in the region. And I have not heard that we've gotten the full extent of any of those damage estimates. So should we expect another request to address that? Military construction costs? And at what point do you stop asking Americans to foot the bill for a war they don't support on top of an inflated budget request and billions in reconciliation funds that you still haven't spent?

[Secretary Pete Hegseth]

Well, Senator, I obviously don't agree with your characterization of that.

[Senator Shaheen]

I appreciate that, but you didn't ask. But I want you to answer my question. I know you don't agree with my characterization. I don't agree with yours either.

[Secretary Pete Hegseth]

Well, one of the reasons I take issue with that characterization is something that Senator Durbin said when he talked about Ukraine and he talked about winning. And I appreciate as much as anybody winning a war. But I sit in front of a committee that wants to talk about winning a war that's been going on for four years and talks about strategic defeat of a conflict that's been going on for four months to prevent Iran from getting a nuclear bomb. I would hope for some perspective in this town of the historic nature of what President Trump is undertaking. Do you want radical Islamists to have this?

[Senator Shaheen]

Because I have limited time I don't understand. So if you can't answer my question, then I will move on to my next question. Secretary Rollins, the timber industry has also been hard hit, as you know, by trade wars, by drought, by wildfires, by other natural disasters that are increasingly common in New Hampshire, which is the second most heavily forested state in the nation. This one of the things that we really need, as you know, because we've had this conversation, is a research program and Forest Service staffing on the ground in a variety of ways, but particularly at Bartlett Experimental Forest. These small investments in research and staffing and sound management help make the forest economies healthier and more competitive. I very much appreciate your having staff visit Bartlett last week with my staff and with staff from the governor's office. But can you commit to restoring staffing at Bartlett and to keeping the facilities there open now that you've seen the critical nature of that research?

[Secretary Rollins]

Why don't I follow up with you?

[Nicole Wallace]

We're going to dip out of this for just one moment to check in with our friends and experts. General Hertling, he takes it as, to use a technical military term, on his best behavior. But there's really an elephant in the room for me here watching this. I mean, the American people have opined on what they have seen Pete Hegseth and Donald Trump do over the last six months in Iran, and 70% of Americans disapprove of the war. And as Senator Sheheen says there, why are you asking the American people for more money when you haven't spent the money that's already been allocated? Your thoughts on how this is going to be that.

[General Mark Hertling]

Well, I don't know what a group of elephants are called. I think it's a herd. But there's a herd of elephants in this room. And what we're seeing is just a horrible presentation by the secretary of Defense. He's obfuscating every single question with insults to the previous administration, tap dancing around the key questions he's being asked by both sides, by the way. And you know, every war, Nicole, requires some type of supplemental funding. That's normal. But the more important question is not how much or what's it for? It's what's the strategy? What are you trying to do? What conditions define success? What metrics tell us we're making progress? What could trigger escalation or de escalation? What's the duration? He's not doing any of that. He's just asking for a chunk of change, a huge chunk of change, almost triple what the normal defense budget is. And what he's basically saying is, we need it. We haven't spent what you've given us already. It's for a bunch of things we haven't explained and we haven't spent yet. So there's an issue of, and Tom Nichols knows this, constraints, restraints, the kinds of effectiveness and efficiencies that you're supposed to see inside of the budget process in the Department of Defense. And none of that is happening. And instead, Secretary Hegseth is wanting to just basically do a hand wave about how important the president's priorities are and how bad the last administration is. This isn't the time or place for that. It should be going to Congress, a Congress he ignored when they went to war and saying we need more money for the war and and other things that we haven't told you about when the budget cycle started. It to me, Nicole, it's contrary to everything I ever learned in the budget process and sometimes those processes are draconian and it just seems willy nilly in what he's trying to portray in this hearing.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, Tom Nichols, you don't have to be expert to know that it lacks seriousness to utter this sentence. He Donald Trump should be putting praised. You know, that is not what you say if you're a serious leader of the Pentagon. That is not what you say about a serious president or commander in chief of the United States of America. And that is what Pete Hegs has said about Donald Trump to questioning from Senator Jack Reed.

[Tom Nichols]

That's all they know how to do. Most of these Cabinet secretaries, they're not good at their jobs. Most of them are not qualified for their jobs. And Pete Hegseth, I think, is showing us yet again a staggeringly unqualified for his job. I mean, even very simple aspects, the kind of things that Mark was just talking about about the realities of the budget process, you know, things that I saw from the other side as a Senate staffer, for example, Pete Hegseth has no experience with any of this. He has no idea what he's talking about. And he also has no idea what he's talking about. Clearly when it comes to the military realities of this situation, the part that jumped out at me was when he said, well, I mean, Jack Reed asked a great question basically, how did you miss that they were going to close the Strait of Hormuz, like everyone in the world knows that was going to happen. And he said, well, that's why we sank their navy. Well, that's a great way of saying that you don't really understand that situation, that you've never sat through a war game about this. You've never seen anything about it. Because sinking their navy was not going to be the thing that was going to stop drone and missile attacks, which is what everybody else in the world knew that the Iranians would do. And instead we got all of this kind of, you know, vaporous nonsense about Joe Biden and Lloyd Austin and, you know, other things that don't really matter. And I think especially in this hearing you know, just to emphasize Mark's point, you're supposed to be sitting there saying, this is what we've done, this is what we've spent, this is what we're achieving, this is what we hope to achieve. This is what we need the money for. And Pete Hegseth just he, this isn't a TV show. It's not, you know, another 20 minutes on the couch at Fox and Friends. These are people who are asking you how you're going to spend loads of money in an active war. And he can't answer any of those questions because the guy has no idea what he's doing.

[Nicole Wallace]

We believe that Senator Jeff Merkley of Oregon will be the next questioner. One of these 17 casualties, one of the lives lost in this war is someone from his home state. General Hertling, your thoughts about what it means for military families watching both the insults for President Joe Biden, former President Biden, which seemed totally out of place and out of tune, especially in the same news cycle where we're learning the names of another person who lost their life over the weekend.

[General Mark Hertling]

It continues. The destruction of trust within our governments and our institutional trust.

[Senator Kaine]

Nicole.

[General Mark Hertling]

I mean, the old guys did it all wrong. We're doing it all right, so be with us. And the military, as we've said so many times on this show, doesn't belong to a political party. You know, Secretary Hegseth is trying to associate himself because he spent a limited amount of time in a combat zone with people who understand what war requires and what the military culture is in our country. So again, it's insulting to many, I won't say all of those who wear the uniform. It's insulting to me that he would try and use the shield of the uniform to proclaim what he's doing is right and everybody else is wrong. Especially in the case of Secretary Austin, who was a four star general and spent probably 12 years in combat commanding at every level. Again, this is personal. And that's all he has because as Tom just said, he doesn't understand the processes and the systems and the theory and the doctrine and how war is waged. He wants to act tough. He wants to be strong. And, and by the way, the other thing I'd point out, you know, he also admitted to two senators that I saw that they are disobeying the law by not passing the $400 billion package to Ukraine at a critical time. You know, they've basically just blown off what the Congress has legislated. So again, all of this compounds that. But from the standpoint of those who we've seen lose their lives and the hundreds who have been injured. You know, there doesn't there's the comments about them, but I'm not sure it's as important to them as winning in this case, and that's unfortunate.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, it's interesting to me that there was no sobering up in light of the tragic news over the weekend, in light of the plunging approval rating. Interestingly, Fox News is not carrying their former colleague. The weekend Morning show anchor Pete Hegseth will listen in to Senator Merkley of Oregon. Join me, Cyndi Lauper, with chef Michelle Bernstein and Dr. Panico to talk about psoriasis and psoriatic arthritis, the potential connection and risk of developing permanent joint damage.

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[Senator Heinrich]

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[Senator Kaine]

Move this process.

[Secretary Rollins]

Yes, absolutely. It is a paramount importance, especially in the middle of fire season right now.

[Senator Kaine]

Thank you. Thank you so much.

[Secretary Rollins]

Thank you.

[Senator Kaine]

And Chairman Kaine, I think there was a sense that the President expressed at the start of the war that the US military power was overwhelming and would likely produce unconditional surrender quickly by Iran. And that obviously hasn't happened. Was it your opinion as well? Did you feel like our military force could produce an unconditional surrender in quick order?

[General Dan Kaine]

Sir, I won't. With due respect, I won't share my private advice to the President. What I will assure you and the American people is I always speak truth to power and offer an accurate assessment of what my assessment is of both our readiness, the plans and activities that might be undertaken, the associated risks and the secondary and tertiary considerations that go with those opinions or options.

[Senator Kaine]

Thank you. So you feel like the various risks that Iran could possibly close the strait despite the destruction of their navy, that the possibility of assassinating their political leaders and their military leaders could produce a strengthened hard line and weaken the reformers, that Iran would have the ability to sustain its ability to attack sites throughout the Middle east, that the initial requirements of the war could certainly deplete our basically high end standoff munitions, that this could affect our relations with our allies. All those were factors well considered in this decision to go to war.

[General Dan Kaine]

Sir, as I said, I won't opine on or share my private advice to the President.

[Senator Kaine]

Yeah, I'm not asking about your Vice President. I'm asking you. Did you understand these issues or have these become revelations as the wars unfolded?

[General Dan Kaine]

Sir, my job is to understand all of the considerations that go into the carefully considered use of military power.

[Senator Kaine]

Let me ask you you this then.

[General Dan Kaine]

Yes, sir.

[Senator Kaine]

I understand why you don't want to respond. But these are all massive risks that seem to be poorly weighed in the beginning of this misadventure. Currently there are reports that we have hit the Banji desalination plant that provides water to about 20 villages or about 10,000 people. And we also damaged the desalination plant at Kesham Island. Were these deliberate targets by the United States?

[General Dan Kaine]

So I'm not aware of those as being particular targets, nor am I aware of those reports. And I'll have to go back and get back to you on that.

[Senator Kaine]

If you could, I'd appreciate that you are aware that infrastructure that civilians rely on to survive is not generally considered legitimate military targets.

[General Dan Kaine]

Sir, as you know, we have a robust process which considers a target that goes through a system that looks at a variety of considerations to include what you're alluding to around both purely civilian or dual use targets. Trust and confidence in centcom that they're looking at the range of those things on a daily basis.

[Senator Kaine]

It sounds like you are assuring us that we will, the United States not target, even in retaliatory sense, infrastructure that is generally considered to be primarily for civilian survival.

[General Dan Kaine]

Sir, as I mentioned, we have a robust process and we have the most professional military force.

[Senator Kaine]

It'd just be nice to have you say yes, because this is international law. If you understand the international law.

[General Dan Kaine]

I do, sir. I've got a lot of lawyers that help me understand.

[Senator Kaine]

Thank. Thank you.

[General Dan Kaine]

Yes, sir.

[Senator Kaine]

Will you get back to us on that question of whether we targeted the desalination plants? If so, why? My time's up. But I do want to express encouragement to look at what the negotiators have put forward or advisors as to whether a 10 day break could facilitate returning to dialogue that might. Might find a path forward.

[Nicole Wallace]

Senator Hyde Smith.

[Senator Shaheen]

Thank you, Madam Chairman.

[Nicole Wallace]

And I want to thank all three of you for being here today.

[Senator Shaheen]

I am going to direct my first question to Secretary Rollins. And again, I want to commend you

[Nicole Wallace]

publicly for the outstanding job you're doing at usda. You know, this is my world as

[Senator Shaheen]

former AG Commissioner, I hear from a lot of producers in Mississippi, and they are.

[Nicole Wallace]

We will duck out of this for a moment. Tom Nichols, let me ask you to weigh in on that exchange between Senator Merkley and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Dan Kaine, about commitment to not commit war crimes. Essentially, I didn't hear yes or no. I simply heard about a system or a sieve through which targets are pushed at centcom. I didn't hear an affirmative no, we will not commit war crimes in the war in Iran. What did you hear?

[Tom Nichols]

Well, just before that, what I heard was, I'm not going to share what I said to the President, but boy, am I worried about the same things you are when it came to what kind of actions Iran could take and whether General Kaine had thought those things through. I mean, in a way, you know, Senator Merkley's question was a little unfair. Did you really think these things through? Of course, I think the answer in reality is that General King really did think those things through and then had to be really careful about what he was going to say sitting next to the guy who, according to reports, was the one cheering on, you know, ignoring everybody else and going to war with the desalinization plants and the War crimes targets. Again, General Kaine, I think carefully threading that needle to say, I haven't heard about whether we hit those. I don't know if we hit them or hit them on purpose. And then just defaults to what I think is a. Both a safe and a sensible answer to say there is a process for discriminating targets. That's pretty much the best I can do here. I think the other problem, though, is that, yes, it would have been nice to hear the chairman of the Joint Chief say, in general, of course, we follow international law. Of course we try to avoid anything that could, that is in our own law, is our own rules and regulations. But that's, I think, for General Kaine, that would have been a restatement of the obvious. I think what Senator Merkley wanted to do was just get it out there on the record and then set up General Kaine having to come back to Senator Merkley. You can bet that there's going to be a staffer or somebody as soon as this thing is done to say, now give us that answer that you couldn't give us in public.

[Nicole Wallace]

General Hartley, I know you're leaving us. I want to give you a last word. And I want to ask you, with all that Hegseth has put into the system, the toxic introduction of testosterone for the military, the optics of essentially doing jazzercise with the men and women of the military, to not take the opportunity to express his condolences to Senator Merkley, whose state actually he represents one of the 17 individuals who lost their life in this war. Just feels like the focus is, is. Is elsewhere. Your thoughts?

[General Mark Hertling]

Yeah, it. When he used the word woke again early on in the testimony that told me where he was, he was asked questions by Senator Reid, West Point graduate Senator Reid, who spent time in the service concerning some of the implications of the things he was doing. I think if, if I were him and going before the Senate, that would be the one individual I would not want to go up against. And when he started trying to pontificate to Senator Jack Reid, it fell through. What you're seeing now, too, I'd kind of comment on the fact that most of the Democrat questions are going to General Kaine. Most of the Republican questions are first going to Secretary Rollins. And so they seem to be kind of bypassing the Secretary of Defense because they know what he's going to say and it's not going to be answering their questions.

[Nicole Wallace]

General Hertling, thank you so much for watching along with us and for being part of our coverage today. You make us all smarter. Let me quickly bring into our conversation former chief of staff of the Department of Homeland Security during Donald Trump's first term, Miles Taylor. Miles, I am mostly over wanting these people to be anything other than who they are, but I did think in the wake of tragic loss of life, in the wake of the Eric Schmidt reporting in the New York Times about many, many more injuries than are known, that there might be a moment of transparency. And that is not how today's testimony began.

[Miles Taylor]

No, it's not. And you know how these hearings play out, Nicole. And I've been in hearing prep with Cabinet secretaries in a Trump administration. And the first thing that they're warned by the White House, and they don't really need to be warned this, but if they have to be told the audience is not the American people, the audience is not the senators. There's an audience of one. And he often tunes in to watch his Cabinet members testify. And you could hear that in these responses, even though the chairman of the Joint Chiefs is supposed to be immune from those sort of political debates. You saw a chairman of the Joint Chiefs who was hesitant to say the real things we all suspect. He feels because he knows that big boss is watching. And I was especially concerned, Nicole, about those answers on civilian targets. Not that General Kane gave the wrong answers, but the hesitation demonstrates, and this is my opinion, that there's clearly tension behind the scenes over civilian targeting. Look, the president himself has threatened genocide. He's threatened civilian targets. It's clear he wants to keep targeting them. It's clear that his general is dragging his feet.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, I mean, Trump keeps posting that, right? This isn't speculation. Let's listen in to Senator Coons who

[Senator Chris Coons]

have been wounded and injured in this war in Iran. General Kaine, your observations about how our adversaries are aligning more and more closely. Technology is accelerating, and cheap and lethal and easily accessible drones pose greater and greater risks to our troops, our homeland, and our security. And Secretary Hegseth that we need to protect our troops wherever our president directs them, that we need to protect our partners and allies, and that the dangerous radical Iranian regime should never possess a nuclear weapon. I think we agree on all of these core basic points. Where I think we may disagree is on this supplemental and on the strategic choices made to achieve some of these core goals. We're 143 days into a war with Iran, a war of choice that we started with Israel, but did not include, consult or incorporate our core allies, our NATO allies, our regional allies, the American people and Congress. And the reason to consult and include our allies and Congress and the American people is so that when the costs and the length of a war extend beyond what we'd initially imagined, the American people and their representatives in Congress understand that sacrifice and can continue to support it. I think your first strategic mistake was to not consult the American people in Congress and make a clear case for the reasons behind this war. There have been many lots offered, and I think our military has executed on the core missions, attack ballistic missile sites, sink the Blue Water Navy, attack their proxies, constrain their capacity. But I frankly think it was entirely foreseeable that Iran would close the Strait of Hormuz, would use cheap, lethal, widely available shahed drones, that they've led the world in manufacturing to attack our bases, our troops, our partners and allies, and impose real costs. Higher costs in fertilizer, in fuel, higher costs for the world and tragically, increasingly higher human costs for us and for our troops. So two questions, the two general lines of questioning, if I could. Mr. Secretary, your question says without these supplemental funds we will face critical shortfalls that threaten our ability to pay our service members and sustain global operations without disruption. You've been asked repeatedly, there's $75 billion appropriated, but unobligated, can we really not avoid critical short term shortfalls? What does that mean about the budget management within the department in terms of unexpected and unbudgeted wars? First Operation Southern Spear and then Operation Epic, fearing

[Secretary Pete Hegseth]

I would just note, I was sort of updated, 95% of that one big beautiful bill funding will be allocated by the end of September in accordance with congressional intent. So these are things we said we would spend and we told you we would spend them on, and we plan to spend them on those things by the end of September. So this is a new request based on new realities of a world we face. Stepping up to meet that moment, Secretary,

[Senator Chris Coons]

but that's news to me, that that 75 billion will be out the door, appropriated, sorry, allocated and spent by September. And I was simply questioning how we have ships running out of fuel in the open seas and planes being grounded.

[Secretary Pete Hegseth]

And I didn't say ships were running out of fuel in open seas or planes were grounded. I'm saying we have to make trade

[Senator Chris Coons]

offs and maintenance accounts are everything our

[Secretary Pete Hegseth]

troops need on the battlefield. They're getting in spades and beyond. It's ultimately looking into the future. Can we invest above and beyond that, the types of munitions fast enough as we upgrade and modernize our force? That's what's at issue here in this 1.5 trillion, this supplemental and any other additional funding that comes, two quite different things.

[Senator Chris Coons]

A $1.5 trillion base budget request and a now $76 billion supplemental. And I was simply going to point to a Department of Homeland Security is sitting on nearly 100 billion in unobligated funds. You haven't requested reimbursement for the millions of, frankly, billions of dollars the department has spent on law enforcement.

[Secretary Pete Hegseth]

Second, we requested reimbursement and are getting a substantial reimbursement from dhs.

[Senator Chris Coons]

That's good news and that's news to me. And frankly, as we reflect on the service and sacrifice of those who put their lives on the line of this war, one of the things I've raised over and over and over is the ways in which this administration has dragged its feet on partnering with Ukraine in order to deploy the best in class sensors, detectors and counter drone systems to protect everything from Dover Air Force Base to our bases in the region, to our troops, to our partners. I want to see you focus on accelerating the defense of our troops and our nation. Focus on accelerating the defense of our troops and this region and a strategy that has a real chance at succeeding at the goals that we agree on because the strategy followed, I think, has no credible likelihood of success.

[Nicole Wallace]

Senator Britt, thank you, Madam Chair. Appreciate all of you being here today. So since the beginning of Putin's aggression into Ukraine, this body has passed five supplemental bills. Miles, let me quickly, Miles Taylor, let me quickly ask you about that point that Senator Chris Coons of Delaware just made that using the military as law enforcement does put in motion the need to seek reimbursement from dhs. I thought that was the first time we were hearing that. That hasn't taken place. Just talk about, can you talk one of the sort of back office consequences, to say nothing of all of the problems to society and for the men and women of the military, of allocating so many of your military resources to law enforcement and now being they're asking for $37.5 billion for the Pentagon for this war.

[Miles Taylor]

Well, this should get a lot of attention. Nicole, I'm glad you keyed in on it. And Senator Coons keyed in on it. It was something that we worried about in the first term because when Donald Trump didn't get the money he wanted from Congress for his border wall, what did he go do? He reached over to the Pentagon and raided Pentagon funds for sensitive projects to go spend it on the border wall. And naturally our worry at the time was, look if something happens and those funds are needed for lives and to protect the United States, is that going to blow back on this administration? Now there didn't end up being an immediate conflict like that, but here we are and the Pentagon is asking for more money. It's basically running out of money for the Iran war and yet has been spending so much money on DHS priorities. That was also the first I've heard that the Pentagon is seeking reimbursement. The big question hovering over this now is how much money is the Pentagon seeking out of this hundred billion dollar DHS pot? And that should be something that the administration frankly already considered before it asked for this supplemental. It should have considered where else inside the administration is money already owed to the Pentagon, how much and how can that cover the shortfalls? There's no reason to think that the Pentagon couldn't go get those reimbursements tomorrow. And that's the type of thing that would be driven from the White House. The fact that they haven't done that, the fact that those numbers weren't presented, and the fact that senators didn't know about it is a big problem.

[Nicole Wallace]

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[Julian Barnes]

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[Senator Shaheen]

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[Nicole Wallace]

We are watching Alabama Senator Katie Brick question Pete Hagseth. He looks pretty animated. Important to note that one of the lives lost is from her State. That's Major John A. Kleiner. He was 33 years old from Auburn, Alabama. He died in the March 12th aircraft crash in Iraq. In Iraq. We are going to sneak in a break. We will be right back with our experts and friends watching Pete Hegseth, Dan Kaine testify on Capitol Hill. Don't go anywhere. We are back. Let's listen in to questioning from Democratic Senator Brian Schatz of Hawaii.

[Daniel (Pretty Litter Founder)]

Missile capability. It's also true that anything the Department of War sets out to do, it usually succeeds at. So the question is not do we kick ass? It's when do we decide to use kinetic engagement to extend our power across the globe? And it's clear that Iran still retains enough conventional missile capability to attack our bases and our interests in the region. Now, it's true that the Blue Water Navy is destroyed. It's also true, and you know this, that the IRGC has something that you may not call a navy, but it's got capabilities to touch us with drones and missiles and lay mines in the Strait of Hormuz, preventing their nuclear capability. It's also true that if you bomb the crap out of a place, they're going to have less capabilities by the end of it. But it's also true that we have not eliminated their nuclear capability. And whatever duration we've set them back actually pales in comparison to the, and I'll say it, the Obama nuclear deal, which we did without having to put our people in harm's way. And then the last objective, which has become a new objective, is open up the Strait of Hormuz. But the Strait of Hormuz was open before this war started. And so you tell my constituents why this war is going so well.

[Secretary Pete Hegseth]

I think you did accurately portray me as a reformed neocon. And members of our generation in Iraq and Afghanistan watched administrations on both sides try to project some remaking of a society in the image of America that spent thousands of lives. I mean, in Iraq, you know, 15, I don't know the exact number, but tens of thousands between Iraq and Afghanistan, men and women lost. President Trump said we're not fighting stupid wars like that again. And he hasn't. That's why we haven't been trying to remake Iranian society, but simply in a realist America first way ensure they never have a path to a nuclear bomb, full stop. And he has said as a candidate and he said for as a private citizen, Iran can never have a nuclear weapon because radical Islamists with nuclear weapon will wield it over our head in perpetuity. SECRETARY so President Trump ran on fighting wars differently, and we're doing so overwhelmingly. And he was very clear as a candidate that Iran can never have a nuclear capability. So I think he's directly on par

[Daniel (Pretty Litter Founder)]

with let me get a question back in here. I think we're, I think we're understanding the limits of air power here

[Senator Shaheen]

because

[Daniel (Pretty Litter Founder)]

we're basically at a stalemate. Someone says the Strait of Hormuz is closed, and we say, well, we've got a naval blockade and we're just going to see who blinks first. And the truth is, in order to change the balance here, change the equation here, some kind of escalation would have to be considered. And if you're taking that off the table, then we are in a holding pattern. And I go back to the original five objectives and none of them have been met. Some of them have changed, but none of them have been met. And with Gas at now 402, with the Brent crude hit 90 today, up from 70 two weeks ago, gas up about a buck nationwide, about a buck 50 in the state of Hawaii, people want to know why are we even doing this?

[Nicole Wallace]

Senator Fisher, go ahead.

[Senator Shaheen]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[Nicole Wallace]

Secretary Hagseth, I appreciated your perspective on the focus. Tom Nichols, importantly, we were in break, but Senator Brian Schatz took a moment to honor Tyler James Feehan of his state, who lost his life over the weekend in the war in Iran, in a strike on housing units based in Jordan. Absolutely no attempt to debrief, at least in this hearing, that we've been taking on what led to those deadly strikes, what is being done to prevent further loss of life on American bases and really to miss the opportunity as the secretary of defense to offer his condolences again, in this case, it was a Democratic senator, but there are people who've lost their lives from other states as well is just shocking to me with the country feeling as badly as it does about this war. And the military, as is always the case, paying the ultimate price.

[Tom Nichols]

But all of these appointees, especially Pete Hegset, they're straight jacketed by what the president wants to hear and by what the president's already said. So, you know, if you're going to say, for example, yeah, you know, Iran still has a missile capability and they're going to get through sometimes. And this is how, you know, the lieutenant died. Donald Trump started this by saying, they have no more capability. They've got nothing left. This is over. And then Trump last month, a few weeks ago, said, well, you know, it wouldn't be fair for Iran not to have missiles. So what are you going to say? Well, you know, the president made it clear that Iran should have some missiles, and some of those killed some of our people. The problem is that because Trump wants absolutely perfect adherence to a narrative, nobody can express any regret. They can't express any failings. They can't express the idea that war is complicated and some bad things are going to happen because of the kind of systems. They can't say any of that. They have to stick to the narrative. And there's one other thing that is just so amazing about this, that Hegseth really went off on this gaslighting about we're not the nation builders. We don't do that kind of neocon stuff. But that's exactly why we're in this position, because that's the war Trump thought he was going to fight. He thought he was going to win this thing, remake Iran. Remember on the first night of the war, he said, when we're done, he said to the people of Iran, when we're done, come and take your government. It'll be yours for the taking. That is a classic. I said it at the time. That was about the most neo con thing that any neocon could say, right, we're going to destroy this bad regiment, going to give it back to you. And now Hegseth and Trump are acting as if no one ever said that no one ever thought of it. This is all about a nuclear weapon. That's nonsense. The nuclear weapon argument has really been kind of tacked on here as a way to kind of try to get people to shut up about this war, when in fact it was begun on the premises of a regime change war. And that has gone completely sour on them for. So now they're all just kind of tap dancing around it. And that's why Pegseth can't answer these questions like a normal human being, because that puts him sideways with the president.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, and let me just come back to the nuclear rationale, because this was the rationale until it wasn't the rationale, because reporting suggested that if they were going to pursue the nuclear material, that would require ground troops on the ground, which someone put a poll in front of Donald Trump and he seemed to rule out as quickly as he ruled it in what is your understanding, Tom Nichols, of the stated purpose from this administration for the war in Iran?

[Tom Nichols]

Depends on, you know, let me check my watch. Depends on what day it is. I think now they've settled on. Our brave men and women are risking their lives to prevent the emergence of a nuclear Iran. And if there were evidence that a nuclear weapon, that Iran was imminently about to explode a nuclear weapon, that would be a good argument to make. And I think he would have had, the president would have had a lot of support, certainly from me and from a lot of other people to say we have to do anything we can to stop, you know, Iran from having a nuclear weapon in the next 72 hours. But that to me is just at every other domain ass covering at this point to say we thought we were going to topple this regime. We didn't. So now it has to be about nuclear weapons. And as you pointed out, Nicole, we have to have that nuclear material. Well, it's, we'd have to send in troops. All right, fine. We don't have to have it. You know, it's worthless, right? At one point the president said it's just worthless. Well, I mean, weeks ago it was invaluable. What happened to that? And this is. They're just dialing through rationalizations, all of which proceed from the same flawed assumption that when that comes from when Trump went into this war, that there were going to be parades in Tehran and a statue of Donald Trump in downtown Tehran after a week of fighting. And everything we're dealing with now is because the President of the United States cannot admit that he was wrong and that he screwed this up.

[Secretary Pete Hegseth]

Get together in the coming weeks.

[Nicole Wallace]

Let's listen in to Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen.

[Secretary Rollins]

Absolutely. Yes.

[Senator Chris Van Hollen]

Thank you, Madam Secretary. Let me turn to the Iran war. We recently lost three American heroes. That brings the death toll for American soldiers to 18. One is still missing. Hundreds have been injured. That's on top of the civilian death toll throughout the region that now stands at several thousand, including the over 150 people killed in the bombing of an elementary school in Minab in Iran. Meanwhile, the Strait of Hormuz is closed. Gas prices today in the United States again spiked above $4 a gallon. And that will also continue to push up costs for groceries and other things that families buy. Secretary Hexseth, you said in your opening statement the best way to ensure peace is to prepare for war. And I agree with you about deterrence. I would also submit that the best way to ensure peace is not to start wars because wars are a lot easier to start than they are to end. General Kaine, I heard your testimony saying Iran will continue to be a challenge. And I think it's pretty clear that that is, in fact the case. And General, in order for you to develop a military strategy to accomplish a particular objective, you obviously need to know what those objectives are, right?

[General Dan Kaine]

Yes, sir. It all. It all starts with what is the political objective. And from that we derive military objectives that support whatever that end state.

[Senator Chris Van Hollen]

And as you say, that is a political objective.

[General Dan Kaine]

Yes, sir.

[Senator Chris Van Hollen]

So, Mr. Secretary, you've talked a lot about winning, talked about winning in your testimony today. You've talked about winning throughout the Iran war, and we all like winning. But I think the American people to deserve a definition of what it means to win in Iran because this war has dragged out for a lot longer than certainly the President of the United States indicated. Indeed, the president said on March 24, and I'm quoting, We've won this war. This war has been won. Do you know what the President meant by that back in March?

[Secretary Pete Hegseth]

Well, Senator, I would just note that militarily, I mean, Iran has been completely overmatched and crushed from the beginning. Militarily, their capabilities are nowhere near ours. I would take issue with your characterization that we didn't start to. That we started this war. Iran started this war 47 years ago and they've killed thousands of Americans, including our brothers on the battlefield in Iraq. Iran has been targeting us.

[Senator Chris Van Hollen]

Secretary. Secretary, we didn't start. Let me just ask you this. Since you said that, what the President meant by his statement on March 24, I think that we had sort of defeated Iran militarily, but that is not the entire objective of this war. I don't think there was ever a question about whether the United States, with its superior military, could destroy a lot of Iranian assets, military assets or other assets. That was never a question. But when most people think of winning the war, they think that that means the war is going to come to an end because we've won. And the President said back in March that we'd won. So I guess my question to you is how are we going to define winning? I hear back in March you said about the Iranians, and I quote, whether they will have a ceremony in Tehran Square and surrender, that's up to them. So my question to the Secretary, reopening the Strait of Hormuz is necessary in order for us to win. Right? That's just a simple yes or no question.

[Secretary Pete Hegseth]

You asked me what the overarching objective is, and I would say ensuring Iran never has a nuclear weapon. That's been clear from the President from day one. That's why Midnight Hammer was undertaken, to obliterate their nuclear sites. That's why we're watching their nuclear sites. That's why that was a part of negotiations ensuring that the next generation of Americans don't have to deal with an Iran that wields a nuclear.

[Senator Chris Van Hollen]

Since that's what you're doing, leading with. Mr. Secretary, let me just say this. You said after Midnight Hammer, and I'm quoting, our bombing campaign obliterated Iran's ability to create nuclear weapons, unquote. Clearly, that is not the case, based on your testimony today. It's also a fact that the dni, Tulsi Gabbard testified in front of the Intelligence Committee that it was our assessment that Iran did not intend to restart its nuclear program. The President, United States, just about a week ago said Iran has committed not to develop a nuclear weapon, which, of course, is a commitment they've made for many years. We need to enforce that. That's what we are doing under the jcpoa. Thank you, Madam Chair.

[Nicole Wallace]

Senator Rance,

[Senator Mike Rounds]

thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. I had the opportunity to serve as governor, South Dakota, for eight years. During that time, we deployed over 5,000 young men and women into harm's way, National Guard members from South Dakota. I attended their departure ceremonies. I attended their welcome home ceremonies, and I attended 31 funerals. One of the main reasons that I decided to come to Washington was because I never wanted to see young men and women going into harm's way again if they didn't have the best leadership, the best training and the best equipment possible. Now, this body, the Senate, with regard to the Iranian war. To date, this body has chosen not to impose war power limitations on the President, nor have we pushed for the withdrawal of forces from the theater. I think the decision to take out Iran's nuclear program and their missile production capacity was the right one. And it should have been done a long time ago. But when the President did that, we also assumed that there would be risk involved. And when you put young men and women in harm's way, you want to do everything you can to make sure that you get in, you get the job done, and you get out. I think that's what we talk about now today. It has been since February that we now have the Iranians that are shooting back. We haven't finished the job. I think the question that the American people have is when the difficult decision comes, because I don't think diplomacy is necessarily working. And I think most people would say we've got more issues in front of us before this is complete. For General Kaine, when the time comes and the president is asking for the decisions about the options available to him to appropriately end this war favorable to the United States and to take care of this problem permanently, are you prepared to provide him with the appropriate options that he is going to have to make a decision to choose from?

[General Dan Kaine]

Sir, I always provide the president with appropriate options and risks that he can choose from.

[Senator Mike Rounds]

And those options that he will have to choose from will cost money. And that's our role here. Because if we don't do it right, young men and women die.

[General Dan Kaine]

Yes.

[Senator Mike Rounds]

Question to you, sir, is this. You've offered a supplemental request and I recognize that it's part of a 1.5 trillion overall. But is this enough money to get the job done or is this going to just get us far enough until we've got to come back in here? And in the meantime, we may very well not have these young men and women out of harm's way yet. That's my question, sir.

[General Dan Kaine]

I want to first start with recognizing your 31 fallen from home and mourn their losses.

[Nicole Wallace]

Thank you for watching along with us. You are watching questioning here from Republican Senator Rounds of North Dakota. We are watching as from South Dakota, Pete Hegseth requests $37.5 billion from Congress for a war that Senator Jack Reid described as, quote, unauthorized after Pete Hegseth told him he should, quote, praise Donald Trump. That's about how it's going. For Pete Hegseth and the others testifying, we have a rare moment of public exasperation aspiration from a Republican. This is Senator Kennedy. Let me show you this.

[Senator Mike Rounds]

Would they try to, to, to redevelop to commence development again of a nuclear warhead?

[Secretary Pete Hegseth]

Part of the reason President Trump had to have the courage to do what he did after Midnight Hammer is that they didn't give up their ambitions even though their nuclear sites had been obliterated. So this is a regime hell bent on nuclear ambitions and President Trump and will go after.

[Senator Chris Coons]

We need straight answers.

[Senator Mike Rounds]

Do we have the ability to destroy

[Secretary Pete Hegseth]

whatever is underneath Pickaxe Mountain? A lot of Senator, A lot of our capabilities are classified.

[Nicole Wallace]

Texif has said Midnight Hammer so many times, I'm beginning to suspect the job he has there is to name the military operations. Joining our live ongoing coverage is Paul Rykoff. He's the host of the Independent Americans podcast. He's the founder and CEO of Independent Veterans of America. Also joining our ongoing coverage, senior national security reporter David Rode. Tom Nichols is still with us. We've lost Miles Taylor for the moment, but let me bring you in Paul Rykoff on what we've been watching,

[Paul Rykoff]

the country's exasperated welcome to our newest quagmire, unpopular, unauthorized, unencumbered. Until now. We're going to hear a lot about financial figures, but I want to keep coming back to the most important piece, which is the human cost of war. Pete Hegseth didn't have an accurate number of how many were killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. It's about 7,000. And I think we don't talk enough about the human beings who are impacted by this. Three now service members were killed just over the weekend. The Department of Defense just named the latest casualty, Sergeant Michael Emanuel Swinton, who was killed in Iraq, not even in Iran, and two others were killed in Jordan. He was from North Carolina. He was 30 years old. He had a wife and a young daughter. The human cost is what should be first and foremost on the minds of most Americans. I hope members of the Senate, I don't think we've heard enough about the people who are impacted. Roughly 50,000 U.S. troops are in harm's way, 40% of our Navy, and there's no end in sight here. There's an old saying that first you commit the country, then you commit the troops. If you're going to do it right. Today is what happens when you commit the troops first and you don't commit the country and you don't commit Congress. So now here is Hegseth in a different kind of posture than we've seen him before. His shoulders are a little lower with his hat in hand asking for money from Congress after he said he didn't need Congress. So maybe this is an overdue time for the Senate to have some spine and implement checks and balances. But this is an example of how not to do things, and our country doesn't learn its lesson. So the Senate should have voted no on the war if it had a chance when it started. They didn't. But they should vote no now because that's where the country is and more and more by the day, especially as American men and women continue to die.

[Nicole Wallace]

We have the names of all the men and women who have lost their lives in this war. It's interesting to me which senators do and do not mention those who have lost their lives from their own states and their questioning with Mr. Hegseth. I want to dip back in and listen for another moment this is questioning from Senator Senator Heinrich of New Mexico.

[Senator Heinrich]

And I hope we can achieve that kind of strategic objection on the timeline that obviously avoids the worst impacts of the limitations of commercial oil supplies right now. Secretary Rollins, I want to shift gears. One of the things that you mentioned in your opening statement that we appear to agree on is that there is simply too much consolidation and in a number of agricultural sectors you mentioned fertilizer and seeds. But in particular I want to talk about the meatpacking industry because in a previous Trump administration bailout about $90 million went to the corrupt Brazilian meatpacker. JBS I think that Congress really intended those funds to go to American ranchers. So I want to ask you, what are you going to do this time around to ensure that the proposed relief dollars that we're talking about today, that those funds go to American producers instead of to the very foreign corporations who have created the business model where ranchers bear the risk and meatpackers reap the profits?

[Secretary Rollins]

Well, that's right and we're obviously at a 75 year herd low. There are a lot of reasons for that but working to solve for that. Number one, the Department of Justice is investigating right now significantly the four, but especially the two foreign owned. Number two, USDA is investing significant funds in deconsolidating, packing and supporting mid sized and smaller.

[Nicole Wallace]

David Rowe Let me take Paul Rykoff's point and note and correct for what he rightly points out is missing. These are the names of the United States service members who've been killed in Donald Trump's war in Iran. Sergeant Michael Emanuel Swinton, 30, a fake Fayetteville, North Carolina. First Lieutenant Tyler James Feehan, 25, of Hawaii, Private Isabella Gonzalez, she was 19 years old. Of Carrollton, Texas, Major John A. Kleiner, 33 years old, he was from Auburn, Alabama. Sergeant Ashley Pruitt. She was 34 years old. She was from Bardstown, Kentucky. Captain Arianna Savino. She was 31 years old. From Covington, Washington, Captain Seth Coval. He was 38 years old. From Ohio, Captain Curtis Angst. He was 30 years old. Also from Ohio, Sergeant Tyler Simmons. He was 28 years old. Also from Ohio, Commander Gabriel Edwards. From Oakland, Oregon, Sergeant Benjamin Pennington. He was 26 years old. He was from Glendale, Kentucky, Major Jeffrey O'. Brien. He was 45 years old, he was from Iowa. Chief Warrant Officer 3 Robert Marzon. He was 54 years old. He was from Sacramento, California, Sergeant Nicole Amore. She was 39 years old. From Minnesota, Sergeant Declan Cody. He was 20 years old. From Des Moines, Iowa, Captain Cody Cork, he was 35 years old from the state of Florida. And Sergeant Noah Tietens, he was 42 years old from Bellevue, Nebraska. I read that he loved martial arts and was going to open a facility to teach. All those lives cut short, all those lives deserving of transparency, all those lives deserving of answers, all those lives lost in this war that the American public has rendered deeply unpopular and registered. There's only a 29% support from the American people. All those lives sacrifice. This the first testimony under oath. Donald Trump's cable network of choice has made the coverage choice. I just point this out because it's interesting to me. After all of Trump's strong feelings and big feelings about his speech last Thursday night, Fox News has chosen not to cover today's hearings. I your thoughts? Statement.

[David Rowe]

Thank you for reading those names. And I agree with Paul. We lose the names of these individuals. And what was so, you know, striking is they span the country. They spanned age groups. They're all at different stages of their lives, but they're all gone. And all of the dozens, if not hundreds of people that surround each one of them is, you know, carry their is going to carry their loss forever. And I, you know, there's nothing more serious that a government can do, any government, you know, than go to war, than put the lives of its service members at risk. And so much of this strategy has been a I just want to say that the hearing and others have made this point a positive sign was that you played this. The comments from Senator Kennedy, the real frustration there. And Senator Mike Rounds, the Republican of South Dakota. I mean, I was impressed. He said, we haven't finished the job. And he's notyou can see that as he's, you know, calling for more attacks. But he's rebutting what essentially Pete Hegseth has been doing all day. And it's sort of these talking points where Hegseth just claiming, no, we've won because we sunk their navy. No, we've won, and he'll make some wild claim. And it's Hegseth's sort of better at kind of waging culture war or rhetorical war, it seems, than actual war. So it's stunning to, you know, have those lives lost, to have a Republican Mike round saying, we haven't won, we have not won. Secretary Hegseth, you know, I reject your claim. And I think that just shows the fatigue that's growing in the country. And again, the I just feel so much for these families of these soldiers who've lost their lives.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, Paul Rykoff, we covered this reporting yesterday about the American people's judgment. They have decided, I think the Atlantic story said Tom Nichols, maybe you wrote this story, that it took the American people six years to revile was the word used in the Atlantic, the war with Vietnam as quickly as they have come to revile the war against Iran in less than six months. What does that mean inside the military to have 70% of the American people oppose the war?

[Paul Rykoff]

It means they don't support what we're doing. I mean, it's so basic, but still so outrageous. Even this hearing today pisses me off because the they're there next to the agriculture secretary talking about meatpacking like this is. This is how broken our system is, is that they circumvented the entire system. And now we've got this joint hearing next to the agriculture secretary. They're not even talking about casualties. They're not even, you know, Hegseth, you can't believe anything Hegsett says. Like, let's just talk about that, right? He's spinning. He's doing the culture war stuff, but he's also not transparent about the objectives on the ground or the casualties that have been suffered. What I'm waiting for a senator to ask him is about the New York Times reporting that revealed that they're under counting the wounded. They're not being transparent about the wounded that they're posting online. They even got the numbers of KIA wrong. And some of the government sites that they've been posting, they're not getting the wounded and the dead accurate. And that is maybe most fundamental to why we can't trust them. We know we can't trust this government on ice. We know we can't trust them on crowd numbers. You can't trust him on anything. But you also now know you can't trust him on how many American men and women are being wounded and potentially killed. That's what I want someone to put the pressure on Hegseth about today and if he won't answer it, pivot and go to General Kaine and ask him that question. Why can't they get the numbers of wounded right? That's something all Americans need to know.

[Nicole Wallace]

Tom Nichols, for reviewers of this program. And again, interestingly, Fox News is is not carrying the hearings so those viewers will not hear answers to the questions that Paul Rykoff is pointing out. But I'll share with our viewers what the New York Times has reported on this question under the headline Pentagon withheld dozens of US Military injuries on Iran War. Eric Schmidt who is one of the five New York Times reporters who's been subpoenaed by the Trump administration, reports this quote. In the week leading up to the two Iranian to the Iran Iranian attack on Friday that killed two U.S. soldiers and left one service member missing in Jordan, Iran carried out three other strikes against US Forces in the country. Those attacks injured dozens of US Service members and damaged several helicopters, according to several US Officials who spoke anonymously. The Pentagon did not disclose the earlier strikes nor the casualties and damage they inflicted. Yet later on Monday on social media, its chief spokesperson said that the number of US military casualties from Iranian attacks since July 7 had risen to nearly 100. The episode from the weekend is the latest example during the Iran conflict of the tension between what the Pentagon says is the need for operational security and the government's obligation to inform the public about the conduct of the war. Interesting to me as well, this question about what sounds to me like a cover up hasn't come up today yet.

[Tom Nichols]

Well, first, of course, if you're Fox, the last thing you want is to have Pete Hegseth out there in an unscripted environment looking, as he does here, doltishly incompetent and lost even to answer, you know, very simple questions. Because again, he's always worried about either he doesn't know what he's talking about or he's trying not to get sideways with the president. I think the other problem, this New York Times report, you know, Paul, I think Paul hit it on the head. There's a lot of kabuki going on here where they've sort of, you know, stacked the table with an extra person with the agriculture secretary so that it just chews up time. And people, you know, will hear meatpacking and, you know, Brazilian firms and just sort of tune out and go somewhere else on the just to avoid this problem of what happens if someone actually asks us this question. There are two things that are very striking here. One is that nobody's really asked this question and why is the Pentagon, I don't think they're hiding this, but they're slow rolling it. They're putting all this to a database that they're not updating because they don't want want this to be the narrative. The narrative is we're winning, we're doing great, nobody's really getting hurt. There are a couple of, you know, as the president says, a couple of people died. It's very sad, but they don't want to have to stand behind a podium and say, yes, these are the number of people, people that were injured just since July 7th. The other problem is a. Pete. And I don't think we should skip by this. Pete Hegseth was asked a very simple question by Chris Van Holland. What does winning meet? And he can't answer that question. Well, they don't get a nuclear weapon.

[Julian Barnes]

Well, that.

[Tom Nichols]

Okay, thanks.

[Secretary Pete Hegseth]

But that.

[Tom Nichols]

Then by that reasoning, we should have just pulled out and come home. Which it seems like Mike Rounds was perilously close to saying at one moment. But if you can't answer that question, then you don't know what you're doing and you don't know why you're putting people's sons and daughters in harm's way.

[Nicole Wallace]

Let's listen to Senator Gillibrand of New York.

[Secretary Pete Hegseth]

American people, not unlimited bombs. Senator, I'm asking for the right bombs at the right time to ensure we can deter our adversaries into the future. And that's why this is a generational investment. And with the previous administration.

[Senator Gillibrand]

Why they are so upset with you and this administration is because the words you have used in the past don't add up About Iran specifically. You said that we had obliterated, quote, unquote, Iran's ability to create nuclear weapons. The President made the same claim. Yet eight months later, in February of 2026, the President launched an act of war claiming Iran was within two weeks of having a weapon. So when you say two very different things, the American people don't know who to believe or what to believe. They just know they can't afford their health care, they can't afford their food, they can't afford housing, and our farmers are continuing to suffer. So which is true? Was it obliterated or wasn't it? What's the status?

[Secretary Pete Hegseth]

The nuclear sites under Midnight Hammer were obliterated, but Iranians foolishly continued to attempt to pursue nuclear capabilities, which is why we destroyed their defense industrial base and so many of the other capabilities to ensure they can't get to a nuclear weapon. See, we're staying laser focused on the objective, and you're trying to make campaign commercials.

[Senator Gillibrand]

No, we're not.

[Secretary Pete Hegseth]

And that's fine.

[Senator Gillibrand]

So listen to this. You also say that you made the missile program, quote, destroyed and made combat ineffective Iran's entire ballistic missile production capacity, every company that builds every component of those missiles has been functionally defeated and destroyed. And that the missile program, existing stockpiles, were depleted and decimated, almost completely ineffective. So why are there missiles left to hit Jordan and result in the loss of life of our brave men and women?

[Secretary Pete Hegseth]

As we stated from the beginning, the Iranian defense industrial base is effectively gone. But they do have underground facilities. Facilities because they're the world's leading state sponsor of terrorism and they've spent 47 years trying to hide their missiles under mountains just like their.

[Senator Gillibrand]

Thank you.

[Nicole Wallace]

Thanks.

[Secretary Pete Hegseth]

Just like their nuclear capabilities. Cuz they would like to get a

[Senator Gillibrand]

nuclear weapon to wield it against us. Of the war. To believe because it's either over or it's not over. It's within two weeks or it's not two weeks. We have no missiles or we have missiles. And that consternation is why so many New Yorkers are perplexed, stressed out and find this war to be incredibly unpopular. Cuz they don't understand the choices that the President's making. Agree with those choices. Secretary Rollins, so you have cut over 160,000 New Yorkers have been kicked off snap. What do you have against hardworking New Yorkers? Children who need SNAP and seniors who need SNAP.

[Secretary Rollins]

Well, first of all, diesel is down under Biden versus today 581 versus 480. Gas is down from Biden today from 484 to 386 today. Fertilizer is down 56% from Biden highs

[Senator Gillibrand]

prices are higher than when you took office. Well, all of those prices are higher than when you took office. So you are not.

[Secretary Rollins]

That is better for New York. That is not true, Senator. And let me tell you what New York is stressed out about is the fact that your state is taking prime farmland and turning it into a solar farms. That is absolutely inexcusable. I have visited the New York farms two times.

[Nicole Wallace]

Two times has expired. Thank you Senator Bozeman.

[Secretary Pete Hegseth]

Thank you Madam Chair very much.

[General Mark Hertling]

And thank all of you all for your service to our country and our national security. And I think it's easy for the

[Tom Nichols]

public to understand how you.

[Nicole Wallace]

Paul Reich off some sharp questioning there from Senator Gillibrand. Your thoughts?

[Paul Rykoff]

The outrage is appropriate and overdue. I think Americans across this country are outraged by this war. They didn't support it in the beginning, they're supporting it less and less by the day. I think the politicians are actually behind where the country is on this, especially some of her Republican colleagues. I think the question for all of them now is okay, what if they keep going forward and you deny them this funding? How are you going to stop the war? Can you stop the war? Because I've said for months that Trump's been all gas, no brakes, he's just going to keep going until he stopped. So even if he doesn't get this funding that is in part to replenish munitions and weapons that they're using on the battlefield, he's going to still keep going. So I think the question for every senator is how do we stop him? He circumvented the process. We don't have a declaration of war. They passed the War Powers Act. But here we are now. And this could drag on until the end of his presidency. I mean, if there's not a change of course, I could see this being a top, top topic for the next race for president. We've been here before and that's maybe what's most infuriating for most Americans is it feels like deja vu all over again. Here we are again, another quagmire and another Congress that doesn't seem to be able to stop it.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah. Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut is still to question. He tags Seth, as is Georgia Senator Jon Ossoff. We're going to sneak in a break. We'll head back up to Capitol Hill on the other side with our friends and experts. Don't go anywhere. We've been the trusted experts since 1960 because nobody knows tires better than we do. And with over 90 tire brands, we have an abundance of options in stock for your vehicle. Buy and Drive [e-mail] Let's get you taken care of.