“Hello White House? Your panic is showing”

Summary

Podcast Summary — Deadline: White House

Episode: “Hello White House? Your panic is showing”

Host: Nicolle Wallace (MSNBC)
Date: September 5, 2025

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Overview

In this episode, Nicolle Wallace and a panel of reporters, analysts, and political figures dissect the growing political crisis around the Jeffrey Epstein files, the Trump White House’s controversial response, and how bipartisan momentum is shifting within Congress. The conversation expands to examine the wider implications for Trump’s political standing—particularly among women and independent voters—his misalignment with popular opinion on key policy issues, and the growing influence of far-right figures on U.S. intelligence oversight. Senator Mark Warner joins in the final segment to address the extraordinary sway of Laura Loomer and threats to the independence of the intelligence community.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Epstein Files Crisis and Bipartisan Congressional Pressure

Timestamps: 01:09–08:47

• White House Backlash on Transparency:
  Nicolle Wallace reveals that the Trump administration is aggressively working behind the scenes to prevent bipartisan support for disclosing the full Epstein files, even as most Americans—including MAGA voters—want transparency.

  • “Apparently the White House is privately trying to tamp down any support for transparency around the Epstein files, even though that is what an overwhelming majority of Americans, including MAGA voters, want.” (Wallace, 01:26)

• Survivors Take a Stand:
  Epstein survivors issue a public challenge to Trump's claims that the scandal is a "hoax."

  • Survivor Statement: “We are tired of looking at the news and seeing Jeffrey Epstein's name and saying that this is a hoax. We are tired of it. We are done, we are not gonna be silenced.” (Wallace, quoting survivors, 02:04)

• Bipartisan Action:
  Marjorie Taylor Greene, along with Republicans Lauren Boebert and Nancy Mace, joins Democrat Ro Khanna and Republican Thomas Massie’s discharge petition to force a House vote on the files. Greene and Massie consider using their Speech or Debate immunity to “name names” publicly.

  • “Survivors at our press conference announced that they are privately compiling their own Epstein list… but Marjorie Taylor Greene and I are willing to name names in the House… under the constitutional speech or debate immunity.” (Wallace quoting Massie, 03:24)

• Gender Dynamics in Republican Dissent:
  Notable that the GOP resistance is led by women, echoing earlier gender divides in controversial nominations.

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2. Political Fallout for Trump: Vulnerability Among Female Voters

Timestamps: 06:24–10:42

• Political Crisis Escalates:
  Glenn Thrush (NYT) frames the Epstein case as a political crisis that outreach and containment tactics have failed to control, highlighting Trump’s historic weakness with female voters.

  • “This is a political crisis that has just expanded, has just broken through every containment that the White House has put up around it.” (Glenn Thrush, 06:24)

• Republican Women: Pragmatism or Principle?
  Wallace pushes panelists to debate whether the few GOP women breaking with Trump are acting on conscience or seizing a unique political opening.

  • “It doesn't represent any political courage… but it is still an outlier.” (Wallace, 08:47)

• Supermajority Means Little Without Action:
  Majorities support file release, but Thrush notes this may remain symbolic—“These super majorities don't necessarily amount to anything.” (Thrush, 09:55)

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3. Trump Administration’s Mishandling of the Epstein Files

Timestamps: 10:42–15:34

• Broken Promises on Transparency:
  Trump’s campaign promise to release Epstein materials morphs into stonewalling after discovering sensitive connections. Rick Stengel criticizes the administration’s incapacity and cynicism.

  • “First, they campaign and say, we're going to release everything… Then they went back on it. Once they reviewed it, they saw [Trump’s] name was in it… then said, we're not going to release it.” (Rick Stengel, 11:29)
  • “Both sides of the aisle should be saying, shame, shame. Like this is terrible… What he is doing is retraumatizing these victims.” (Stengel, 12:49)

• Cabinet Ironies:
  Wallace highlights contradictions, such as Trump appointing Alex Acosta—architect of Epstein’s “sweetheart deal”—to his cabinet.

  • “Why does the lawyer who does the sweetheart deal for him end up in Trump's first cabinet if they believe that?” (Wallace, 13:38)

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4. Why Epstein Is a Political Minefield Unlike Any Other

Timestamps: 14:51–17:09

• Beyond Partisan Lines:
  Survivors emphasize their issue is bipartisan; the scandal resists being shoehorned into normal party squabbling.

  • “She had nothing derogatory to say about Republicans and nothing laudatory to say about Democrats. This is not going to easily be shoved into the sort of brokenness of our partisan politics…” (Wallace, 14:51)

• Perpetual Scandal:
  Matt Dowd notes that, like many Trump controversies, this is “the crime that never ends”—especially given the abundance of public evidence.

  • “If you saw a picture of Calvin Coolidge with Al Capone, he would have been hounded out of office. We know a tremendous amount about it.” (Dowd, 15:34)

• Paradox of Transparency:
  Debate about whether everything of substance is already known, but official refusal to release files suggests otherwise.

  • “Then why not release all the files?” (Wallace, 16:45)

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5. The Broader Problem: Trump’s Policy Positions Are Deeply Unpopular

Timestamps: 20:23–27:42

• Public Opinion Is Against Trump (and GOP) on Major Issues:
  Wallace and panelists break down how Trump finds himself on the losing side of supermajorities across the Epstein case, vaccines, immigration, tariffs, and more.

  • “He's positioned himself alongside the fringiest of fringe, the vocal minorities within his MAGA coalition and in direct opposition to the overwhelming number of people in the public.” (Wallace, 20:23)
  • “Democrats have all the issues on their side… How do you bridge that gap between the Democrats being where the public is and the Democrats still acting like they're trying to get their swagger back?” (Wallace, 22:34)

• The Problem of Democratic Messaging and Energy:
  Cornell Belcher argues Democrats need to show more passion and values, not just policy specifics.

  • “If you want to stop being unpopular, you have to stop doing things that are unpopular, start doing things that are really popular.” (Belcher, 22:49)
  • “Many times… Obama wasn't like this and Clinton wasn't like this… both very good at connecting to people's hearts and their guts… Democrats talk too much about issues and not enough about values.” (Matt Dowd, 27:45)

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6. Chaos vs. Order: Why Trump Remains Dominant Despite Poor Polls

Timestamps: 33:03–36:42

• Why Trump Still Dominates:
  Matt Dowd and Rick Stengel discuss how Trump’s chaos keeps the GOP in line and opponents off-balance.

  • “He has a servile, monolithic GOP that won't stand up to him. Historically, when presidents are unpopular, their own party goes against them… That's not happening with Republicans.” (Dowd, 33:26)
  • “The trait is chaos 100%… It's hard to argue with chaos. It's hard to argue with irrationality.” (Wallace, 34:08; Stengel, 34:25)

• Democrats Need to Be the Party of Change:
  The panel insists that passion and a pro-reform agenda, not status quo arguments, are required for Democrats to win.

  • “…Democrats have to move from the party of preserving the status quo… to a party that says, yeah, you're right, we need to change. And here's our pro reform strict change.” (Dowd, 30:38)

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7. Erosion of Institutional Norms: The Loomer/Warner Intelligence Scandal

Timestamps: 38:25–46:51

• Laura Loomer’s Outsized Influence:
  Senator Mark Warner’s oversight visit to an intelligence agency is abruptly canceled after far-right influencer Laura Loomer’s online campaign. Loomer, despite holding no official post or clearance, appears to dictate access and even policy within intelligence circles.

  • “This is the kind of thing that happens in authoritarian regimes. You purge your independent intelligence community and make them loyal not to a constitution, but something else.” (Sen. Warner, 40:04)
  • “How she is eight months in now, what appears to be calling the shots… if it doesn't scare the hell out of you, I don't know what would.” (Warner, 41:51)

• Breach of Security and Normal Order:
  Loomer's access to classified schedule information is a major red flag, underscoring how political loyalty is overtaking institutional norms.

  • “This is the crowd that says, you know, they're going to pursue any leak… But the hypocrisy here is gagging.” (Warner, 43:21)

• Broader Threat:
  Warner warns redefining loyalty within intelligence agencies as a loyalty to an individual over the Constitution is a dangerous, authoritarian step.

  • “Getting rid of the independence of the intelligence community makes every American less safe.” (Warner, 45:36)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On White House Panic:
  “Hey, White House, your panic is showing.” (Wallace, 01:09)

• On Bipartisan Unity Among Women:
  “Marjorie Taylor Greene and I are willing to name names in the House… What a moment on the House floor that would be. I’d like to see that.” (Wallace quoting Massie, 03:24)

• On Trump’s Political Weakness:
  “Trump’s enormous vulnerability with female voters and women in general in this country… I think is now extending, will now extend beyond his political career.” (Thrush, 07:33)

• On Democratic Messaging:
  “Many times… Obama wasn’t like this and Clinton wasn’t like this… both very good at connecting to people’s hearts and their guts… Democrats talk too much about issues and not enough about values.” (Dowd, 27:45)

• On Loomer’s Influence:
  “How she is eight months in now, what appears to be calling the shots… if it doesn’t scare the hell out of you, I don’t know what would.” (Warner, 41:51)

• Final Sobering Assessment:
  “We are in a post-checks and balances moment.” (Wallace, 38:25)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Epstein Files/National Panic: 01:09–08:47
• Political Fallout/Republican Women: 06:24–10:42
• Administration Handling of Files: 10:42–15:34
• Broader Popularity Issues for Trump: 20:23–27:42
• Democratic Messaging Gap: 27:45–31:29
• Trump’s Chaos Strategy: 33:03–36:42
• Laura Loomer and Institutional Crisis: 38:25–46:51

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Tone & Style

As always, Nicolle Wallace threads urgent, dry wit (“your panic is showing”) through wonky, hard-edged analysis. Panelists speak candidly and are deeply critical of both Republican tactics and Democratic timidity, with a clear-eyed urgency about institutional decay and the extraordinary reality of far-right influencers undermining intelligence oversight.

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For Further Reference

• New York Times reporting: Glenn Thrush’s parallel between the Epstein case and previous gendered GOP divides
• Survivor press conferences: Quotes and personal accounts offering rare nonpartisan clarity
• Sen. Warner’s warnings: A key segment on how institutional norms are being rapidly rewritten in real time

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This episode is essential listening for anyone tracking the intersection of political scandal, gender dynamics, institutional decay, and the looming battle over public trust and truth in American democracy.

Transcript

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Do you expect you're going to get.

[Senator Mark Warner]

A little pushback from the administration for getting involved in this?

[Nicole Wallace]

Oh, I got a lot of pushback. I got phone call after phone call last night. You know, they don't want, didn't want me to sign the discharge petition. They want to focus on the oversight investigation. They hate Thomas Massie more than they can hate any, any Democrat, which, which makes no sense to me. And they don't want any, they don't want to work with Democrats at all. Hi again, everybody. Yes, it's that point the Trump administration where we lead with Marge. It's five o'clock in New York. Hey, White House, your panic is showing. Yesterday, Marjorie Taylor Greene, typically a stalwart Donald Trump action ally, called out the Trump administration for attacking her over her support for what she just said there. The discharge petition in the House, an effort put forward by Democrat Ro Khanna and Republican Thomas Massie, who she also mentioned, that would force a vote on releasing the full Epstein files. Just transparency, basically. Apparently the White House is privately trying to tamp down any support for transparency around the Epstein files, even though that is what an overwhelming majority of Americans, including MAGA voters, want. Publicly, we're hearing Trump's newest tactic to try to make this issue go away, calling the whole thing a, quote, hoax to watch the survivors and their families of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell's crimes say this. We are tired of looking at the news and seeing Jeffrey Epstein's name and saying that this is a hoax. We are tired of it. We are done we are not gonna be silenced.

[Senator Mark Warner]

Mr. President. Donald J. Trump, I am a registered Republican. Not that that matters, because this is not political. However, I cordially invite you to the Capitol to meet me in person so you can understand, this is not a hoax. We are real human beings. This is real trauma.

[Rick Stengel]

This is the leader of our nation. This was no small thing. It wasn't irrelevant. It's not a hoax. There's testimony after testimony. Ghislaine Maxwell was convicted. To hear the leader of their nation say things like that for us, it's gut wrenching.

[Nicole Wallace]

Those who have already been through so much trauma yesterday said that if no one else will, they'll name names. The government refuses to do that. Congressman Massie saying this, quote, survivors at our press conference announced that they are privately compiling their own Epstein list. They would be sued into homelessness for naming names, but Marjorie Taylor Greene and I are willing to name names in the House of Representative under the constitutional speech or debate immunity. What a moment on the House floor that would be. I'd like to see that. As for Republicans signing onto Massie's petition, Marjorie Taylor Greene is one of three Republican women backing the effort. She, along with super Trump allies Lauren Boebert and Nancy Mace, who we saw leaving a meeting with Epstein survivors on Tuesday in tears, it looked like, are forming the GOP resistance from within. From reporting in the New York Times, quote, the gender divide within the House GOP on the Epstein case echoes one that emerged earlier this year in the Senate during fraught confirmation hearings for Pete Hegseth, the defense secretary who faced his own accusations of having abused women, all of which he denied. Then, as now, the women were under immense pressure from the vengeful White House to fall in line. In both cases, most of their male colleagues who have previously expressed hints of concern cited what they said were equally compelling reasons not to act on those concerns. Massey and Khanna say they are confident they will get the required 218 votes to pass their petition by the end of the month. That's where we start the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. New York Times Justice Department reporter Glenn Thresh is here. Joining me at the table, former Criminal Division deputy chief at SDNY, MSNBC legal analyst and host of a new YouTube show, Courtside. Christy Greenberg's here. And former undersecretary of State for public diplomacy and public affairs during the Obama administration. MSNBC political analyst Rick Stengel's here. Glenn Thrush, it's such an interesting piece of reporting from the New York Times to draw the parallel to Hegseth he was accused of rape by someone at a conservative conference. The Monterey Police Department came out and reported it out or investigated it. And the pressure campaign against Jenny Ernst was immense. She's now retiring. Are there, I hate to ask if MAGA Republicans are learning lessons from something like that, but is there a sense that they will not be bullied the way Joni Ernst was? Do they seem to be finding some political safety in their numbers between Marjorie Taylor Greene, Lauren Boebert and Nancy Mace?

[Glenn Thrush]

Well, this is a political crisis that has just expanded, has just broken through every containment that the White House has put up around it.

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Right.

[Glenn Thrush]

This looked initially when we were first writing about this, as if it was a pretty big embarrassment, but a survivable embarrassment for Trump's law enforcement appointees because they had pushed all these Epstein conspiracy theories. Now, what's going on and it's happening at a point in time where Democrats are being pulled by the momentum of the midterms as opposed to the gravitational pull of the last election. And Republicans and I think the Marjorie Taylor Greene position on this is extremely noteworthy because she is clearly looking towards a life after Donald Trump and a position in the party after Donald Trump, maybe the biggest position in the party after Donald Trump. So they are acting within their own post Trump interests and they are from a political perspective, I think, seizing on an opportunity in addition to their, to their heartfelt feelings about this particular issue and their own personal experiences with this sort of trauma. But they are also, I think, seeing what Democrats have seen for years, which is Trump's enormous vulnerability with female voters and women in general in this country. He has a history that I think is something that very nearly cost him the election the first time he was elected, drag on his majority the second time, and I think is now extending, will now extend beyond his political career. And I think Democrats are now there's been a lot of talk about what issues are the Democrats going to seize going forward. You know, we saw in the RFK testimony today a ready made TV commercial for the midterms for the Democrats on those issues. But I think Epstein case has moved beyond sort of a boutique issue about conspiracy theories and the MAGA base into something much broader. And it is not good for the White House to have women from both parties standing at a podium criticizing a president whose principal political vulnerability is with female voters.

[Nicole Wallace]

Super interesting. I just want to say there are no courage parades that we're going to throw for any of these women because they have 90% of all Democrats agree with their position, 86% of all independents agree with their position, 83% of all Republicans agree with their position, and 82% of all MAGA Republicans agree with their position. So it doesn't represent any political courage, Glenn, to your political points, but it is still an outlier. I mean, Megyn Kelly, who Donald Trump famously said that blood was coming out of everywhere it was coming out of her eyes, is now so on board with MAGA and Trump that she accompanied RFK Jr to your point to his confirmation hearing. I mean, even the women who themselves were smeared by Donald Trump have come back into the MAGA fold. And I wonder if your reporting suggests that these three women are viewing this as a single issue departure from Trump or if they're making a more significant break.

[Glenn Thrush]

Who knows? I think what they're doing is what every politician does, which is they're taking advantage of a tailwind and seeing how far it takes them. Now, when we're looking at those numbers, if you blur your eyes, those numbers are very similar to the approval rating for gun control, for expanded background checks, and look where that went. So these super majorities don't necessarily amount to anything. But I think it is noteworthy. And I think you're going to see more and more of this, much to the disgust and anxiety of the White House, which is people, individual parts of the Trump coalition are starting to again, see over the horizon beyond Trump and trying to figure out how it is that they're going to be able to leverage these issues when he's gone.

[Nicole Wallace]

You know, what's interesting about this, Christy, is there are some questions where the answer isn't knowable. This isn't one of them. It's all knowable sitting. I mean, and the reason we know about the gigabytes that Massie was talking about yesterday at the press conference is because Kash Patel went on Joe Rogan's show and talked about how many gigabytes and terabytes of evidence, including videos and video testimony and photographs, existed. And that is one of the things that fuels Joe Rogan's interest in the disclosure promised by Donald Trump as a candidate. And it's where he comes to, quote, draw a line in the sand because we're not babies, was his rhetoric on this. These questions are knowable. What is in the Epstein files is something that arguably Pam Bondi and Todd Blanche already know the answer to.

[Rick Stengel]

Yeah. And how we got here is so troubling. Right. So first they campaign and say, we're going to release everything. They have that ridiculous press conference at the White House, most transparent administration in history, giving out binders to influencers, all which no lawyer would ever say, we're going to show you everything if they hadn't reviewed it, like, you're just an idiot at that point. But they did. Then they went back on it. Once they reviewed it, they saw his name was in it. And then once you find somebody's name is in a criminal file, whether they committed a crime or not, you don't go running to that person and telling them what's in it. And that's what they did with Donald Trump. They found his name in the file, they went and told him about it and briefed him. And then beyond that, they then said, we're not going to release it. And then they had an audience. The number two at the Department of Justice had an audience with a convicted citizen sex trafficker and released that interview transcript, but not anything of the accounts of the victims. How do you possibly justify it? And then we get distraction after distraction, right? We get, oh, let's go after the grand jury materials, which were a tiny little piece of the puzzle, right? And you have the judge saying, well, you could release these files anytime. The grand jury's secret. We can't. We're bound by rules not to release that. But you could release everything else and nothing's stopping you. You've got them bringing in all of these people to testify who don't know anything, no information or anything. They are saying they're releasing documents, but they're already public. And then you've got the President of the United States calling this a hoax. I mean, it's so outrageous. Like, both sides of the aisle should be saying, shame, shame. Like this is terrible. And the idea, even his own Department of Justice doesn't believe that. In the filing to release the grand jury transcript, you had Todd Blanche and Pam Bondi, who signed it, saying, jeffrey Epstein is the most infamous pedophile in U.S. history. And his, the facts of his case are a tale of national disgrace. They don't believe the garbage that Donald Trump is saying. Republicans don't believe it. And yet no one is calling him out. And what he is doing is retraumatizing these victims who are standing up on the steps of the Capitol because this government won't stand up for them.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, even the statement, though, about Epstein being the most infamous and heinous child sex criminal history. Why does the lawyer who does the sweetheart deal for him end up in Trump's first cabinet if they believe that? I mean, did they believe that then when they picked Alex Acosta for the Trump Cabinet.

[Rick Stengel]

It's a great question. So after. So this all is sort of described in my former boss Jeff Berman's book. He talks about this episode, how they at sdny, when they were investigating Epstein, were really keeping everything on a close hold on a need to know. And they didn't tell Bill Barr, they didn't tell a lot of people about their investigation because they were very worried about the fact that Acosta was in the Cabinet and that people at the White House would not look upon this investigation favorably. So they found out about it when Epstein was arrested.

[Nicole Wallace]

And then a week, they kept the raid secret.

[Rick Stengel]

The raid was secret. The investigation was secret. A week later, after Epstein is arrested, Acosta resigns and Trump. Trump gave a statement saying how great Acosta was and how this was a real shame. So, you know, who knows what Trump knew about this at the point, but even when he found out that Acosta was connected with this kind of sweetheart deal, he didn't seem to care.

[Nicole Wallace]

This is a story, Rick, around whichand I read the Berman book and I covered it at the time, that it was a crime story. But I miss the years where it became a political story fueled by. By conspiracies of the COVID up, largely on the right. But I'm so struck by how apolitical all the victims are in their public statements. And I spent an hour with one of them. She had nothing derogatory to say about Republicans and nothing laudatory to say about Democrats. This is not going to easily be shoved into the sort of brokenness of our partisan politics with that stipulated, what happens next.

[Matt Dowd]

Well, I thought it was very powerful, their press conference and how poised all the women were. They were obviously grief stricken by the whole thing. They were not political, as you said. But it also comes back to what is his immunity with this? I mean, he famously said, I could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and no one would care. But this could be ultimately his kryptonite. It's the one thing that doesn't go away. It's the crime that never ends. But it's paradoxical because we know a gigantic amount about it. I mean, how many pictures have we seen of Trump and Epstein? I mean, if you saw a picture of Calvin Coolidge with Al Capone, he would have been hounded out of office. We know a tremendous amount about it. And I think part of the problem and maybe part of the opportunity is that with a conspiracy theory, the beauty of a conspiracy theory is that it never goes away. If nothing turns up, the conspiracy theorists go, well, they're hiding it. So that's why this will always be something that harms him. I do think there's a possibility, and you would know more about this than I do, that there may be that everything may have been exposed already. I mean, you had Jeffrey Epstein, but.

[Nicole Wallace]

Then why not release all the files?

[Matt Dowd]

Well, I'm all for that, too. But you have the 2010 deposition of Jeffrey Epstein asked, did you and Donald Trump consort socially with underage women? And he took the Fifth Amendment. I mean, it's incredibly incriminating. I mean, and the fact that he has both survived that and that it never goes away is part of the paradox of Donald Trump.

[Nicole Wallace]

Glenn Thresh, thank you for your reporting on this story. Christy, thank you for starting us off on this and for all your insights on this. Rick sticks around a little bit longer with us when we come back. It's not just this story. It's not just questions about the Epstein files on which Donald Trump finds himself on the other side of more than 80% of the American people. He's on the wrong side of public opinion on issue after issue after issue, including things that used to be superpowers for him, politically speaking issues like immigration and the economy and his own role in the COVID vaccine, how Donald Trump is falling further and further out of step with his own voters and the broad swath of American voters who will determine the outcome of the midterms. Also ahead for us, call it a big beautiful facelift. Donald Trump's signature piece of legislation is so politically toxic, such a political debacle, branding wise, that Republicans are giving it a name change what they've come up with. And we'll ask how that could possibly help when 11 to 18 million people stand to lose Medicaid access. Also ahead, more evidence of far right activist Lara Loomer's outsized influence on Donald Trump and his administration. The top Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee will be our guest after his routine visit to an intelligence agency was abruptly canceled after Laura Loomer intervened. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

[Rick Stengel]

What's poppin, listeners? I'm Laci Mosley, host of the podcast Scam Goddess. The show that's an ode to fraud and all those who practice it. Each week I talk with very special guests about the scammiest scammers of all time. Wanna know about the fake errors? We got em? What about a career con man?

[Kelly Ripa]

We've got them too.

[Rick Stengel]

Guys that will wine and dine you and then steal all your coins. Oh you know they are represented cause representation matters. I'm joined by guests like Nicole Byer, Ira Madison iii, Conan O Brian and more. Join the congregation and listen to Scam Goddess. Wherever you get your podcasts, On Deck.

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[Nicole Wallace]

I need a coffee and you need.

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[Nicole Wallace]

Might seem counterintuitive, but in following through on promises he made to essential elements of his own political coalition, did Donald Trump unwittingly seal his own political fate and that of the Republican Party? Perhaps you've noticed that again and again lately. He's positioned himself alongside the fringiest of fringe, the vocal minorities within his MAGA coalition and in direct opposition to the overwhelming number of people in the public. We just talked about the Epstein files. Two thirds of registered voters disapprove of Donald Trump's handling of that controversy. And on vaccines, a matter where, frankly, the Trump administration is actively now casting doubt. A full 70% of Americans are believe the federal government should be encouraging parents to vaccinate their kids. What about immigration issues like deportation? 59% of all Americans disagree with what he is doing. That's the highest disapproval I think he's seen on that issue. More than half of Americans believe Donald Trump has, quote, gone too far on tariffs. Politico issued an irony alert today pointing this out. Quote, trump loves to gloat about Democrats putting themselves on the wrong side of an 8020 issue. Is he about to fall into the same trap? Joining our coverage pollster and president of Brilliant Corners Research, MSNBC political analyst Cornell Belcher is here. Also joining us, MSNBC senior political analyst Matt Dowd is here. Rick is with me as well. So, Cornell, this is where my life as an ex Republican limits sort of my ability to understand. The Democrats have all the issues on their side. The Democrats have example after example of Trump double doubling and tripling down where he's on the other side of the vast majority of Americans, including people that voted for him less than a year ago. How do you bridge that gap between the Democrats being where the public is and the Democrats still acting like they're trying to get their swagger back?

[Podcast Advertiser/Announcer]

That is a really good question. I wish you hadn't asked me that. Tough question at the top of the hour. I'm going to give you something for free that I usually charge clients for. And it may seem really simple, but, you know, if, if you want to stop being unpopular, you have to stop doing things that are unpopular, start doing things that are really popular. And if you look at where most of the Americans are, there's a reason why Donald Trump is increasingly on unpopular and his approval ratings are growing and he's, and he's dragging the Republican brand down with it because as you just pointed out, he's doing things that, that the vast majority of Americans don't want. And the only reason those numbers are even, are not even higher than they are is because when you get underneath that, you still have his core base supporting him no matter, no matter what. So Democrats problems are largely of our own making to a certain extent. Right? And I said this before, if you, you know, Donald Trump and Republicans, they've lost most of the major elections over the last, you know, five, six, 10 years, right? They've lost, certainly lost more elections than they've won. But at no point in time did Republicans say, you know what, everything that we sort of stand for and we value, we've got to reconsider and think about what we fight for and what we represent. And you know this well, Nicole, no matter what voters want to believe and fight for someone who actually believes in what they're fighting for. And I think Democrats have strayed away from or even sort of try to push back away from values that have been central to them. And by the way, values that the vast majority of Americans are for, look, you just showed those numbers, right? We should be on the right side of most of those issues. But when I do focus groups, and I do focus groups, often with the younger voters, right, These voters who were a crucial part of Democrat success in the Obama era, they are just as likely to be unfavorable to Democrats as they are to Republicans. And Democrats are far more closely aligned with their issues, be it education, be it student debt, and especially around the environment. But they don't see Democrats sort of representing and fighting for any of those things. And I know it's frustrating to a lot of House Democrats would argue that they go to the well of the House all the time and try to fight for those things.

[Nicole Wallace]

So how do you fix it, Cornell? I mean, I think as an ex Republican it is not welcome or constructive for me to tell any Democrat how to fix it. I am like a pound puppy. I'm happy to be in the pro democracy coalition and like a rescue dog, I'm wagging my tail. I'm like super happy to be here. But my observation is that what you just said is the part where Democrats spend their energy on the policies and what is not translating is the energy. I mean, Matt Dowd and I crafted a line in 04 that said you may not always agree with me, but you'll always know where I stand. And on election day in 04, the vast majority of Americans didn't agree with really much of what we were doing, but we had credibility because we were. It sounds insane, but we were forcefully defending that which was unpopular. Why can't the Democrats, it's like they've run 25.1 miles. How do you push them that last mile in terms of fighting for these things that are already popular?

[Podcast Advertiser/Announcer]

It's funny you should bring up Bush and you guys time kicking our butts a couple decades back because. Because I began my sort of my national political career because you all had kicked our butts. And it gave rise to a guy by the name of Howard Dean who came chairman of the Democratic Party as an outsider and said we're going to fundamentally start doing things differently. And we started doing these crazy things, Nicole, like, can you believe this? Like trying to compete and putting organization and funding in all 50 states and building neighbor neighbor programs in all 50 states and engaging and doing party building in all 50 states. When we came into the DNC at that time, look, Karl Roll was talking about a permanent Republican majority. Check my notes. There wasn't a permanent Republican majority because we got about party building. And if you look at what we're doing right now, I think Republicans have done a much better job at party building and registering their voters and engaging their voters at the grassroots level than Democrats have done. And that's a remarkable turnaround from where we were in 2006, 2008.

[Nicole Wallace]

Matt Dowd, your thoughts?

[Cornell Belcher]

Well, I mean I don't disagree with anything and anything that's been said. I at least though I work for Bush, I at least done Democratic campaign campaigns in Texas where we, I ran the last one that won here. So I, I hope I have a little credibility on this part of the problem. I mean Democrats have a playing field on one hand that you couldn't ask for better of going into 2026. A president with horrible approval ratings, a president with on every single major policy the voters disapprove of, even on crime and immigration that voters disapprove of. Donald Trump, he's got a negative 20 on the economy, he's got a negative 30among independent voters on inflation and is. So on one hand you have that. The problem is on the, the structure of our democracy today does not allow vast huge amount of changes. One, the United States Senate now where Republicans have more states because of people's patterns of movement and where they now associate is it's you have less of ability to sort of change a bunch of states and then what's happening on redistricting, what they did in Texas and all of that. But I will say this, Republicans I think may be outthinking themselves on this because as of right now, the Republicans think they can make a bunch of new seats that are 10 to 15% Republican states where Donald Trump carried them by 10 to 15%. The problem they have is that the average of 30 plus special elections since election day in November of 2024, Democrats have overperformed by 16 points. And so when they create an 11 point district thinking they're safe, they're not going to be safe if this continues to hold. My only advice, and I've given this before to Democrats is they oftentimes talk too much about issues and not enough about values and they think elections are decided by issues when they're not. Issues are indicator for bigger values. We understand, we understood that in 2004 with Bush is that we would, we would talk about values. People wanted in, in a leader. What you know, whether they wanted strength, whether they wanted empathy, whether they wanted authenticity, all of those sorts of things. Democrats think elections are decided by people's heads and oftentimes they're great on policy, they speak great on policy and they'll go through all the numbers and they'll give you arguments on that. But many times, and Obama wasn't like this and Clinton wasn't like this, who are both very good at connecting to people's hearts and their guts. And I think that that has to be the transfer Democrats do. It's it, they're ahead on policy. Great. Now make an argument that strikes people's values on those things. And I think oftentimes Democrats are over cautious in, in how they talk about this. They don't want to offend the groups. They think they need the middle of the road group and all of that. And what people want, especially in today's politics, is they want passion and they want strength, even if they disagree with you. They want passion and they want strength. And part of that is showing and is taking on Donald Trump, is taking on the Republicans and all that, but also having a pro reform agenda. And I often say this is candidates. I mean voters will vote for a candidate of change even if they have questions about the change over a candidate of the status quo. And too often Democrats argue for the status quo, especially with Donald Trump. They, they talk about their institutions are under attack, they talk about the structures are under attack. They talk about all of that when voters are like, yeah, they're under attack because we don't want them or we don't think they're working on our behalf. And so I think Democrats have to move from the party of preserving the status quo or what had existed before Donald Trump to a party that says, yeah, you're right, we need to change. And here's our pro reform strict change.

[Nicole Wallace]

All right, we'll keep this going. I have to sneak in a quick break. More on the other side.

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[Nicole Wallace]

How bad is it? Well, things are so bad for Donald Trump and the Republicans that they're looking for a new name for Donald Trump and the Republicans signature domestic spending bill. You know, the one they used to call the Big beautiful something. It's now being called the Working Families Tax cut bill as if. We're back with Cornell, Matt Dowd and Rick. Rick, your thoughts?

[Matt Dowd]

That sounds like a Democratic bill. You know, the question is, here's the question, what we're talking about. When he's underwater and his polling is so bad, why is he still so dominant?

[Senator Mark Warner]

It.

[Matt Dowd]

Right. Part of that is that he has a servile, monolithic GOP that won't stand up to him. Historically, when presidents are unpopular, their own party goes against them. LBJ and the Vietnam War, the Democratic Party vote against them. That's not happening with Republicans. The other point is that he's so much more nimble and faster than everybody. Every day there's a whole new story that everybody has to reckon with and Democrats have to reckon with and they're playing catch up all the time. But I'm going to go back to something.

[Nicole Wallace]

Can I just jump in on one of those? I mean, it's not that he's. I mean, because nimbleness is an attribute. It's chaos. And some of the problem is that the coverage and the analysis is always of astute acumen. And it's not. The trait is chaos 100%.

[Matt Dowd]

And it's hard to argue with chaos. It's hard to argue with irrationality. It's hard to argue with illogical. That is part of the problem. And that's part of thei mean, that's one of the things that Matt was saying. The Democrats are playing by an old playbook. When you have this chaotic agent, this cue ball that's breaking up the table every day in a different way, you can't react in that same way. But to also go back to something Matt said, he said voters want passion and strength even though they object to all those Trump policies. They see Passion and strength in. In Donald Trump. Maybe the passion is madness, but they will vote for change over someone. The status quo. And again, the Democratic Party has to reimagine itself. It can't be the party of the status quo. It can't be perpetuating these institutions, as great as they may be, because people.

[Senator Mark Warner]

Don'T care about that.

[Nicole Wallace]

Matt, what does this look like in practice?

[Cornell Belcher]

I mean, what it looks like in practice is candidates begin to emerge that have this voice. And I will give credit to, to Mondame in New York is a voice of passion and a voice of reform. And there's people I know that disagree with what his reform is, but he's a voice of passion and a voice of reform in this. And they need more leaders that are willing to take a chance. And I'll go with something that Rick just said, and I think about this as you do this. If anybody's gone through trauma and how do you come out of trauma? And one of the ways you come out of trauma, and I think our country has been through trauma, is you have to begin to look at life with new eyes. You have to begin to look at a new path and a new vision and not imagine your life as it was before. And the more leaders that emerge that basically can begin to look at America with new eyes and enunciate a new vision that is reformed, that says we do need to change our institutions, that our institutions aren't working and they haven't been working, and enunciate that policy with passion and strength. And I would say you may not agree, again, you may not agree with the socialist Democrat Mandami, but he is a passionate person with a pro reform agenda. And right now he's 16, 17 points ahead in a city I know that is Democratic, but he is somebody, a young leader that has enunciated that. And the more Democrats do that, the more the path will emerge.

[Podcast Advertiser/Announcer]

Cornell, you know, I can't disagree with any of. Any of that. And I think you will see candidates who come to the forefront of Democrats, Democratic Party being a lot more passionate, you know, tackling things differently. I mean, if you look at what Governor J.B. pritzker and Newsom are doing, right, they're certainly thrown out the playbook. And what way Newsom is actually trolling Trump right now and getting a lot of attention. It does seem passionate and it does seem new. And I do think Democrats do have to be about fundamentally about change. However, here is the pickle. The pickle is this right? Trump has ignited something in this country that I was fearful about. And that was something that I think I helped brought on with the election of helping the electoral Barack Obama. Right. It is the fear of change, right? We're talking about change, but it's also the fear of change and change that looks different and that you don't understand and a fear of the other which we, which we don't like to talk about. But come on, we know it's all. That dog is always hunted in American politics. Right. Especially in the South. And I think at the same time, Democrats need to talk about how either we're all going to get along. Whether you're black, brown, yellow, green, you're all going to be Americans. Like Ronald Reagan said, only America. Can someone from Japan be an American, someone from France be an American. We're all going to have to be Americans and get along, or none of this is going to work for any of us. We're all in this together.

[Nicole Wallace]

I want to continue to convene all of you because I think the piece we didn't get to is, is this trauma and this binary choice, right? I mean, I think what you are both saying, Matthew and Cornell, is that the country that we thought we were, it's sort of like the sixth sense, right? Like it's the past is over, he's dead and he doesn't know it, but the little boy knows it. And so the way things always were, the clinging, the turning back, the institutions will save us, the checks and balances will hold. That is over. We are in a post checks and balances moment. And I wonder if we can next time talk about how culture, how things like south park and the social media account of Gavin Newsom and the moments that a lot of artists are seizing. Dave Matthews was the one I saw this week to say this is wrong to say, which is you see with your to turn what Trump did, which was to say, don't believe your eyes, don't believe your ears, only believe me. Around with voices all across culture and the arts and politics saying, I see what you see and it's effed up. So put a pin in that. We'll have that conversation next. Rick Stengel, Cornell Belcher, Matt Dowd, thank you for spending time with us, for starting this conversation today. When we come back, the top Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee Committee will be here. He says his routine visit to a key intelligence agency was abruptly canceled and it happened after far right activist Laura Loomer got involved. Senator Mark Warner will be here. Don't go anywhere. The Immense influence that right wing conspiracy theorist Laura Loomer holds over the United States intelligence community is on full display again this week. The top Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee, Mark Warner, was set to visit a major US Spy agency tomorrow as part of his routine oversight duties. But after a series of posts from Loomer criticizing the long scheduled visit, it was canceled abruptly. In a statement, Senator Warner revealed that the meeting was unpublicized and classified. So these are now new open questions as to how Laura Loomer, who holds no official post in the Trump administration and no known security clearances, even knows about it. Speaking to a group of reporters, the Senator warned this, quote, this is the kind of thing that happens in authoritarian regimes. You purge your independent intelligence community and make them loyal not to a constitution, but something else. Senator Mark Warner joins us now. Senator, is there any update? Have you been invited back to carry out your oversight duties?

[Senator Mark Warner]

Well, we heard from DOD at some point today that, oh, we can reschedule the meeting, but, and one of the things I've done in these meetings, and I do them with all the intelligence installations, not just in the D.C. area, but I, whenever I travel, I visit, whenever I'm traveling abroad, I visit with CIA stations. But they're saying, but if you actually want to talk beyond to this, the leadership and do the town hall, and this is particularly, this one was in Springfield, Virginia. So these are my constituents as well, you've got to do it with a Republican as well. Now, I've done this with Marco Rubio, I've done it with Richard Burr, but I've never had this precondition. And I raised it in the Intelligence Committee with my Republican colleagues that, hey, do you really want, if you go see a facility in Arkansas or Oklahoma or wherever, do you really have to bring along a Democrat if you want to talk to the workforce? It's absurd. This is, you know, at the end of the day, where you started this, this Laura Loomer is so far outside the mainstream that no one in the Trump administration even wanted to hire her. How she is eight months in now, what appears to be calling the shots. And she tweets and Pete Hegseth or Tulsi Gabbard jumps is if it doesn't scare the hell out of you, I don't know what would. And again, she does. It's not just against Democrats. I mean, remember she was the person who claimed to throw out Republican Congressman Mike Waltz as the first National Security Adviser. She threw out uniforms. General Tim Hawk, who was the head of the nsa. She recently claims that she helped influence Gabbard on taking out 37 career professionals, some congressional staff, getting rid of their security clearances. If now she is going to be the vetter of whether we do oversight. You got to pass a Laura Loomer test to do your job. This is beyond belief.

[Nicole Wallace]

This is where we, where we are, it would appear, based on this incident. Do you know how she learned of the existence of your appointment? And is it true that that was classified?

[Senator Mark Warner]

We did not publicize this meeting at all. The contents of the meeting were all going to be classified. I don't know for sure whether, you know, whether NGA put it on any schedule, but it was sure was. He was not supposed to get to anybody in the media or anyone else. But, you know, I, I did see. My staff told me that she claimed, Ms. Loomer claimed that she got this from someone from the intelligence community. So it again begs the question what you did in the setup. She didn't have any clearances. And this is the crowd that says, you know, they're going to pursue any leak. They're going to go after Jim Comey and John Brennan and former officials and what have you. But the hypocrisy here is gagging that, you know, the Tulsi Gabbard PDXF crowd, they, they want to go after folks when they have views different than them or the president, but they don't bother about their own personal security or confidentiality. We saw that with Signal Gate, we've seen that with continued abuses of security processes and how this individual, of all people, I challenge anyone to go. I won't cite all the things she said or done, or just look at what my friend Thom Tillis, the Republican senator from North Carolina, said about her. You know, it's volumes. If this person is calling the shots at DOD and the intelligence community, we got more problems than even I thought we had.

[Nicole Wallace]

What is your sense of what is going on inside the intelligence agencies? And is it one of your theories of the case that she doesn't really want you to know the answer to that question?

[Senator Mark Warner]

I think she doesn't want any pushback. I don't think she wants a independent intelligence community that speaks truth to power. And the thing that just mind blowing to me on this is, you know, I obviously don't agree with the Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, in a whole series of things. But the one thing I think, you know, she served in the military. I think she was completely suspicious and turned away by what happened. With the Iraq war. We got into the Iraq war in the first place because people tried to cook the books on intelligence. And if she's allowing a Laura Loomer or on her own volition trying to cook the books again to make sure that nobody says anything out of the intelligence community that ever contradicts with the president's position, then we could find ourselves in harm's way and Americans could be in harm's way. Getting rid of the independence of the intelligence community makes every American less safe. And I fear that's really what's happening because inside the community there is fear that is running rampant. You're seeing professionals pushed out. You know, the news picks up about a third of the ones that are actually pushed out. We've seen identities of CIA agents that have been classified for decades exposed. We've seen recent reports of some of the top people who are involved in the intelligence community briefing. President Trump before he met with Putin, kicked out after the so called summit. Folks, this is what happens when you don't have an independent intelligence community and people are loyal to an individual, not to rule law or the Constitution.

[Nicole Wallace]

A key step in every authoritarian march that's ever happened in human history. Thank you for speaking out about all this and thank you for doing it here with us. Senator Mark Warner. Thank you for your time.

[Senator Mark Warner]

Thanks so much.

[Nicole Wallace]

One more break. We'll be right back. It is as American as apple pie. An American president who summons our better angels with eloquence and wisdom and a little bit of humor. Kennedy, Reagan, Clinton, Obama, and also this guy.

[Cornell Belcher]

We hold these truths to be self evident.

[Senator Mark Warner]

They said that all men are created equal. Strange as it may seem, that was the first time in history that anyone had ever bothered to write that down. Decisions are made by those who show up. Class dismissed.

[Cornell Belcher]

Thank you, everyone. God bless you.

[Senator Mark Warner]

God bless America.

[Nicole Wallace]

So that, of course, was legendary actor Martin Sheen in his iconic role as President Jed Barlett on the West Wing. I am thrilled to announce here today that Martin Sheen will be my guest on Saturday, October 11th for a live in person taping of the Best People podcast during the morning session of the MSNBC Live 25 event. For tickets, just scan the QR code on your screen or go to msnbc.comlive25. And don't forget this week's episode of the Best People. And this week's best person is Ken Burns. It's available on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. We will be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes today. We are grateful.

[Kelly Ripa]

Hey there, it's Kelly Rupa. And if you've been listening to my podcast, we are knee deep in Season three. And if you haven't heard it, it's time to get on board. After years of interviewing celebs on camera, I finally get to bring you the real conversations that take place when the cameras aren't rolling. Where else are you going to hear Michelle Obama talk about keeping her girls out of Page Six? Hilaria Baldwin's hilarious reaction to Alec running for office, or Jeremy Renner's lucid hallucinations about Jamie Foxx? Nowhere else. It's raw, it's honest, and best of all, it's off camera. And believe me, that's where you get the good stuff. So download. Let's talk off camera with Kelly Rabba now. Wherever you get your podcasts.