← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
"I am not fearful, I am fearless"
00:54:14
Nicolle Wallace and panel continue coverage of the indictment of New York Attorney General Letitia James.
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- [00:00]
Nicole Wallace
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- [00:54]
Carol Leonnig
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MSNBC Host or Announcer
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- [01:01]
Nicole Wallace
Hi again everyone. It's five o' clock in New York. We continue with the breaking news that today New York Attorney General Letitia James, a major foil of Donald Trump's, has been indicted on at least one count of bank fraud. A grand jury in Virginia reached this indictment on the first day they were seated by the newly installed interim U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia, former Trump personal attorney Lindsey Halligan. Halligan is the same in attorney who just obtained a criminal indictment against former Director of the FBI Jim Comey exactly two weeks ago. He has pleaded not guilty. Today's development follows immense public pressure from Donald Trump to investigate and indict Attorney General Tish James. MSNBC is reporting this, quote, trump has demanded that Attorney General Pam Bondi prosecute James. Last Saturday, the President called James, quote, scum in a truth social post and said she should be removed from her job. He also railed against her, quote, witch hunt against President Donald J. Trump and others, referring to himself in the third person. Tish James prosecuted the Trump Organization in a blockbuster civil fraud suit. She won a judgment of more than $300 million. That judgment was overturned in August. Here's what she said about Trump in the wake of that civil fraud trial.
- [02:25]
Letitia James
The scale and the scope of Donald Trump's fraud is staggering and so too is his ego and his belief that the rules do not apply to him. Today we are holding Donald Trump accountable. We are holding him accountable for lying, cheating and a lack of contrition and for flouting the rules that all of us must play by, because there cannot be different rules for different people in this country. And former presidents are no exception. This decision is a massive victory for every American who believes in that simple but fundamental pillar of our democracy, that the rule of law applies to all of us equally, fairly and justly.
- [03:23]
Nicole Wallace
New York Governor Kathy Hochul just released a statement on social media. It says this quote, new Yorkers know James for her integrity, her independence, and her relentless fight for justice. What we're seeing today is nothing less than the weaponization of the Justice Department to punish those who held the powerful accountable. This is where we begin the hour. I want to bring into our conversation, legal correspondent Lisa Rubin with us here at the table. Lucky for us, after being asked on live television to do so, we succeeded in holding on to some of our favorite experts and friends. Still with me, voting rights attorney, founder of democracy docket, Mark Elias is still here. Also still here, Puck News senior political columnist, MSNBC national affairs analyst John Heilman, former top official at the Department of Justice, MSNBC legal analyst Andrew Weissman is still here and former director of the CIA. Now, MSNBC senior national security analyst John Brennan is still with us. Lisa, you've been covering this breaking story for us all afternoon. I have.
- [04:22]
Lisa Rubin
And Nicole, you know, I would like to say that I'm surprised, but I'm not at all surprised by this development, particularly that it follows on the indictment of somebody else who's mentioned in that supposed private direct message to Pam Bondi that made its way onto public Twitter. That message mentioned not only Jim Comey, but also Letitia James and Adam Schiff as being people who were within Donald Trump's campaign of retribution. And, of course, Tish James, her biggest crime of all is not one we recognize as actually a crime of law. It was having the temerity to prosecute Donald Trump in a civil fraud case brought by her office, the New York attorney General's office, where he was investigated and then prosecuted for essentially habitually inflating and deflating the value of various properties in order to get favorable treatments from mortgage lenders and or insurers. I sat through nearly every day of that trial, which lasted, and we could have a long and fruitful discussion about whether the penalties in that case were fair. But I will tell you, having sat there, there's no question in my mind, based on the evidence marshaled by Tish James and her team, that there was a deliberate attempt afoot by people within the Trump Organization to pull a fast one on the lenders and insurers of.
- [05:40]
Nicole Wallace
New York State and Donald Trump's own public statements about following laws or that it's, quote, smart not to pay any taxes. I mean, he. It is his brand not to play by the rules.
- [05:52]
Carol Leonnig
Yes.
- [05:53]
Lisa Rubin
And the whole trial was about the fact that Donald Trump was essentially involved in a conspiracy with other people in his organization, including some of his children, to avoid playing by the rules. Why do you try to inflate the value of certain properties to get better treatment in your mortgages or in your insurance? Because you expect that there's going to be favorable tax treatment associated with it to minimize your tax burden from year to year. And so, based on sort of what he felt was the right amount of taxes to pay in any given year, there was wild vacillations in the valuation of different properties within the Trump Organization's orbit. But of course, you and I both know that everything that is held by the, quote, Trump Organization rolls up to a single person. That's the beneficiary of the Donald J. Trump revocable Trust, AKA one President, Donald J. Trump.
- [06:46]
Nicole Wallace
Lisa, what about this Rubicon that was crossed when Jim Comey was indicted over the objections of lifelong Republican prosecutor Eric Siebert? We now have a second person on Donald Trump's perceived enemies list indicted by that office.
- [07:01]
Lisa Rubin
We do. And morale in that office, according to our colleagues Carol Linnig and Kandelinian, is not exactly high. This is an office that's seen its National Security Unit decimated in the last few weeks.
- [07:13]
Carol Leonnig
Why?
- [07:13]
Lisa Rubin
Because in addition to firing Eric Siebert, they also fired a high ranking career official named Maya Song. They've recently fired a National Security prosecutor who did a detail to an office at Main Justice. Not a partisan nominee or appointee, but somebody who just did a career detail. By the way, the Office of the Deputy Attorney General and the oag. The Office of the Attorney General, every administration, as you know, are filled with detailees, people who have subject matter expertise that those offices desperately need. The Office of the Deputy Attorney General in particular, is where people with national security expertise are asked to go. Michael Ben Ari somehow fell afell of the MAGA sphere because he was in that office. So he too, got ax from the Eastern District of Virginia. And now, of course, you have this second prosecution being brought by this office. And one of the biggest questions for me is, in whose name? We know that Lindsey Halligan was the sole person who signed the Comey indictment. She was the only person to appear before the grand jury. She interviewed a single witness identified as an FBI case agent. So they didn't bring any of the people who may be witnesses at trial to appear before the grand jury, and they only got 14 of the grand jurors to vote out two of the three proposed counts. That's not a ringing endorsement if, as the saying goes, you can indict a ham sandwich. There were certain people in that room that didn't have an appetite for indicting the ham sandwich. So I'll be very interested in seeing when we get a transcript of today's proceedings before a judge we understand to be Magistrate Judge Ivan Davis. How many grand jurors voted in favor of the counts against Tish James and whether or not they voted a true bill, meaning they voted to indict her on all of the proposed charges. Nicole.
- [09:00]
Nicole Wallace
Director Brennan. Lisa brings up some of the recent individuals purged from the Department of Justice, either fired or resigning over principal. One of them, Mr. Ben Ari. Michael. Michael was detailed to, I believe, Lisa Monaco's office. One of the things Lisa Monaco spent a lot of time doing was some national security work. And one of the greatest threats facing our country and Donald Trump himself is a threat from Iran over the killing of Soleimani. I think Lisa Monaco had in her portfolio protecting not just Trump, but Pompeo and Bolton and Milley and everyone that was on Iran's sort of hit list for.
- [09:42]
Andrew Weissman
I'm just looking above now.
- [09:43]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah. And so the purging of expertise, of national security expertise makes Trump and his Cabinet less safe. It's so surreal that I'm trying to take Mark Elias note and describe it as real, but it's so shortsighted. It's so stupid. It's so dangerous.
- [10:02]
It is. And people like Lisa Monaco and others, the professionals who have served both Republican and Democratic administrations, they've tried to carry out their responsibilities blind to a political party or partisan interests. And this effort to try to uproot find individuals who might have played some role in the previous administration just carrying out their work and then firing them. Those that were detailed to Jack Smith's effort and others. Again, if individuals are going to say, no, no, I'm not going to carry out very legitimate responsibilities because of the fear that they're going to be tainted by it and therefore held accountable for it. We really are in a much, much different era than we ever been before. And as Mark said, the era of the Department of Justice in previous times is gone. Now we have a Department of justice that purely is being, again, exploited, manipulated. And unfortunately, the people that are leaving either being fired or just Leaving because they don't want to be part of this really is just hollowing of the tremendously important institutions of our government, that which keeps the rule of law above and beyond these partisan interests. And it's just again, it's so appalling that the Republicans have allowed this to happen and continue to see. And we're just not even one year yet into a four year presidential term.
- [11:23]
Andrew Weissman, we're learning a little bit. The judge that has this case is a judge appointed by former President Biden. Lindsey Halligan's name is the only one that appears on the docket. We are still awaiting the actual indictment. We expect to see that shortly. Your thoughts?
- [11:45]
Andrew Weissman
Well, just to continue for a moment on what John was saying, which is another area which we are seeing, the hollowing out that is very dear to me from my brief time in the intelligence community, but obviously with something that John feels deeply based on his experience, is the politicization of intelligence. And sort of the reporting is overt efforts by the dni, that is the person who's the head of the intelligence community, to alter intelligence to seemingly just align with what Donald Trump wants. That is not how the department, that is not how intelligence works, where you have to have objectives of fact finding. And so to me, this is all very much of a piece. Now we've learned the name of the judge, Judge Walker. He is a relatively new judge. He's young. He is a former federal prosecutor from that very office. So he is going to be, as is very true of the judges in districts, they're very aware of what is going on. And also the mood within the federal defenders, those are defense lawyers and the federal prosecutors in terms of what is happening, he has to be aware that no federal prosecutors from the Eastern District of Virginia are on the James Comey case. The reporting is they would not do it. They refuse to be part of that case. And so you have prosecutors from another office. That does not happen. That is abnormal. And so it remains to be seen whether the same thing, the same phenomenon will happen in this case, which will be another sign of a real dearth of evidence in the case. The one thing we know, we don't know what all the evidence is, that obviously is something remains to be seen. But we do know that there's targeting. And so to me, that is the story, because this is clearly a sign to me that there is not. The rule of law applies to everyone. This is an example of the rule of law applies to those people who Donald Trump says it applies to.
- [14:14]
Nicole Wallace
Well, Senator Schiff made a point this week with Pam Bondi that it's not just the targeting and then subsequent resignations, firings, political interim appointments and then indictments. It's also the pardoning of the January 6th insurrectionists. It's the dropping of the case against Mr. Homan. I mean, it is the two halves of weaponization and politicization.
- [14:41]
Carol Leonnig
Yeah. And that's the reason why I made the point that I did earlier. We need to stop viewing this as the outlier and recognize this is now the norm. This is normal. Like what is normal at the Department of Justice in October of 2025 is that the President of the United States will order the Attorney General or suggest to the FBI who wants investigated and indicted, and they will comply. And, you know, again, not to be the difficult one here, but if you're sitting. But if you're sitting, you know, as a line assistant in the Eastern District of Virginia, I don't want to hear about the fact that you disagree. I don't want to hear that you refuse to be in the grand jury room. What the hell are you doing in the office? You know, what you're doing in the office is you are still conveying a legitimacy to an office that is run by a woman right now who is, I think, probably been in grand jury rooms twice in her life. Once to indict James Comey and once now to indict Tish James. So the authoritarians don't just rule by the handful of people at the top. They rule through the compliant, go along, get along of a whole lot of other people. And yes, I was one of those people who said, if you are a good government employee, don't resign. But the assumption was that they were going to stand up and they were going to speak out. They weren't going to sit quietly at their desk and try not to get called on. And right now, there are a whole lot of people in the executive branch who are just trying to keep quiet and not get called on. And those people need to either stand up and follow their oath or else they need to get the hell out of the government.
- [16:10]
Lisa Rubin
Can I push back on that for a second, Nicole?
- [16:12]
Letitia James
Please.
- [16:12]
Lisa Rubin
You know, I spend a lot of time talking to people in these offices or people who are veterans of these offices, and particularly at a time where we're in a government shutdown and people all over the country are suffering economically because they're not getting their paychecks, including furloughed employees who don't expect now to get back pay because the president has indicated he's going to violate that law as well. I do have some empathy for people who are the sole supporting member of their family's income. They have mortgages to pay. They have kids to put in daycare. There are a lot of people who want out desperately, that there's a reason that people talk to people like me and Carol Leonig and Kendallane, and it's because they do want out. They want to do the right thing. And at the same time, they're struggling to figure out how they're going to pay their bills day to day if they leave the Department of Justice. Because I don't know if you've noticed this, but the climate for law firms right now, other than yours and a few others, is not the greatest place in America to be. It's not easy to find a job, particularly if you're a person who resigned from the Department of Justice on principle. You are wearing a badge that makes you off limits to a whole lot of legal employers in this country, or at least one that signals to some legal employers you might be the albatross around their neck one day. And so I do have some empathy for people who are trying to figure out how to do the right thing. I agree with you that in principle, we should be encouraging people to get the heck out of the Department of Justice, particularly one that functions like this. And yet at the same time, I know in this economy and this country, given the way that Trump has also weaponized his administration against the legal profession writ large, it's a very difficult position to be in.
- [17:49]
Carol Leonnig
Look, I have empathy for everyone who is looking for a job in this economy. I will say my empathy for lawyers is less than my empathy for the people who are the receptionists.
- [18:00]
MSNBC Host or Announcer
Just on the principle.
- [18:02]
Carol Leonnig
Well, I mean, you know, look, I mean, there are. It is a hard economy for lawyers, but it is. But lawyers are not suffering the worst of the worst in this economy. And I would feel better about this circumstance if we were still in March or April or maybe. But we have known this is coming for a long time. I would come on your show in March and April and May and say that Paul Weiss is an absolute disgrace. And why are the partners staying there? And some of them privately would call me and be like, I'm looking. Well, here we are, everyone. It's now October. There are still a law firm full of partners. And so, yes, may it take some time. We've had two indictments in the Eastern District of Virginia for those folks to find jobs. Sure, let's Give them some time. But I will be back on your show in a few months and say, what are those people still doing there?
- [18:47]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, this is the tension of the Trump story. And in Trump 1.0, I think I still have some of their messages on my signal app. You had to download every encrypted messaging service, and they would ping all day with people inside the White House, inside the National Security Council, inside the Department of Justice, inside the Pentagon leaking about what they were doing to rein in Trump and how if they left, he would be so much worse. I had no sympathy for those people. I remember the day he went on the air and attacked Mika, saying, how does any woman stay there? We're now seeing what it's like without those people. I mean, it is the central tension animating the Trump era. Right. You know, how does Millie stay after he is forced to walk around like he's in Fallujah? Millie went out on to apologize and has become a critic. But it is the central tension at the heart of the Trump story.
- [19:45]
Carol Leonnig
Right. But again, I want to be clear. I didn't say that every federal prosecutor in the country needs to resign. I said that if you're in an office that has now indicted James Comey and Tish James, to say that, well, I wouldn't go into the grand jury room. Well, that's kind of cold comfort. If you're James Comey or Tish James, that office is. Is still able to function because there are a lot of lawyers in that office, and they need to recognize their time will come. You know, the person who I have the greatest and utmost respect for was Skoton. I'm trying to remember what is that.
- [20:23]
Nicole Wallace
And Daniel Sassoon.
- [20:24]
Mary McCord
Yeah.
- [20:25]
Nicole Wallace
And, you know, I'm sorry, Federalist Society Republicans.
- [20:28]
Carol Leonnig
Federalist Society Republicans who are like, they saw that come in early in the truck. Administration got out.
- [20:34]
Nicole Wallace
Right.
- [20:34]
Carol Leonnig
And so, you know, again, I'm not trying to be unsympathetic or not empathetic, but they're not putting any. That tension is not existing in this office.
- [20:43]
Correct.
- [20:43]
Because in this office. Correct.
- [20:44]
Nicole Wallace
It's not existing in this term. It's not existing in this term because I think to your first point, these are not. These are not anomalies. This is now the central mission of the Department of Justice. And they told us that when 25% of the FBI agents have been deployed or detailed, speaking of detailees, not to counter terror, and when the top tier prosecutors, the best prosecutors in the country have all been purged because they refused, you know, who wanted in on January 6th cases. Emile Bove. Emil Bove.
- [21:15]
Carol Leonnig
Yes, you do.
- [21:16]
Nicole Wallace
Wanted in. He was at sdny and he wanted in on the righteous prosecutions. He said, give me some.
- [21:22]
MSNBC Host or Announcer
That dude just was like this. He thought the wind was blowing one direction and then it blew the other direction. He was like, I'm going over there. Man of principle. You know, I think about all this in the context and we think about what's going on in some of these agencies, and this is kind of a. Not a total tangent, but I just keep trying to process this reality, which is that the guy who runs the border czar took 50 grand in a kava bag. In a kava bag.
- [21:49]
Nicole Wallace
Kava bag. Obviously, I don't eat a lot of salad.
- [21:51]
MSNBC Host or Announcer
They stung the dude. I mean, in the perfect, you know, the fall that's become a big Trump administrator, they get him on camera or on audio or video. I'm not sure which it is. I'm not sure we know. I'm not sure we ever will know. Because wherever the Epstein client list is, where that tape is, it's in the same spot. It's like the Raiders of the Lost Ark thing. You will never see that thing.
- [22:08]
Carol Leonnig
It was on her desk and now it's gone.
- [22:10]
MSNBC Host or Announcer
Right. But they got 50 grand in a kava bag, and that guy is never going to be prosecuted. We're never going to know where that money went. They're never going to answer the question.
- [22:20]
Nicole Wallace
Well, not for the next three and a half years, for sure.
- [22:22]
MSNBC Host or Announcer
And the. The FBI and the DOJ along the way, before we knew about the Tom Hammond thing, disbanded their public corruption units, because at some point along the way, Emil Bove involved in one of those things and Cash Patel on the other. It's like, this is kind of embarrassing. We don't want this public corruption unit could actually find some people guilty of public corruption. And public corruption is what the whole Trump administration's about. So they just disbanded. If you're sitting in the FBI or the DOJ and you're seeing this, the guy with $50,000 in the Kaaba bag who's not getting prosecuted, the case was shut down. And in the process, they've shut down the public corruption units in the DOJ and the FBI, I bet your morale is pretty low. I mean, it's just. It's not Adam Schiff. I started by saying, you know, wasn't surprised at all about Letjust James. Adam Schiff is just the over under. Adam Schiff's gonna get indicted. He's gonna get indicted. There's not. I mean, it's not that you're not surprised. It won't be surprised. It's like, I think it's almost all but inevitable. My question to the lawyers around here is if there is a large presumption. Lisa, all of you, Andrew, everybody's going to have a position on this. There is a consensus that the Comey case is unlikely to ever see a courtroom because of the variety of problems that Pat Fitzgerald is going to make mincemeat of over the course of the next few weeks in these motions. But this elective prosecution thing, the message itself that Trump sent, not only ordering her to prosecute, indict Comey, but saying he's guilty as hell. Well, all three of those people, those names are on that list, including Tish James. So my question to the lawyers is, are we, is there not is there going to be a similar legal consensus that if Comey is likely to never see trial, that Letitia James is also unlikely ever to see trial? Because if you would think that the primary piece of evidence there is what Trump did in sending that message and what he said in that message, he said the same thing about her and he said the same thing about Schiff. So is she basically, in that sense, at least regardless of what the details are on the mortgage fraud question, is it not the case that the same arguments are going to get deployed? And probably, again, not to make light of what's happened to her, it's horrifying. But is that where we're going to go with this case next?
- [24:30]
Lisa Rubin
Yes. And also the same motion that Fitzgerald is going to make about Lindsey Halligan's unlawful appointment, her lawyer is going to do the same thing, going to do the same thing here. And it's going to sit differently than the Alina Haba and Seagal Chadha motions, because in their case, they had other assistants working under them who are willing to prosecute cases they indicted here. Lindsey Halligan stood alone. She signed the indictment alone. If she's unlawfully appointed, then that instrument as a criminal charging document is so fundamentally flawed that there's nothing that can be done to cure it. So if I'm Abby Lowell, who's Tish James lawyer, I am going to make like Pat Fitzgerald, and I'm going to make that motion, too. But when we talk about selective prosecution, I want to talk about one other person that we haven't talked about, and that's Lamonica MacGyver, because on October 21st, there will be oral argument on her motions to dismiss, which include a selective and vindictive prosecution motion of her own. And you know who she draws the parallel to. You know, you were drawing the parallel to Tom homan and the $50,000 in the Cava bag versus Tish James, who says later in communications to her bank, actually, this is not my primary residence. Well, Monica McIver says, well, wait a second. If I assaulted a federal police officer, what about all the guys you pardoned on January 6th?
- [25:45]
Nicole Wallace
Let me just hit pause for a second. We are learning more about the indictment itself. I want to bring back to the conversation my colleague, MSNBC senior investigative correspondent Carol Lennig. Carol, what are you learning?
- [26:01]
Carol Leonnig
Well, heartened to see that we now have confirmation from the court about what we reported about an hour and some and change ago, which is that the grand jury returned an indictment against Letitia James, New York Attorney general, one count of bank fraud, but also an additional count of false statements. These things are interlocked, although not spelled out in great detail, but they all relate to the case we've been talking about for a while, which is the allegations that Bill Pulte made, that James had somehow defrauded a bank in some of her forms and in her attempt to help her niece finance a home.
- [26:49]
Nicole Wallace
Carolina, this is also, at this point against Lisa Cook. What is your sense of the targeting of perceived political enemies with the same attack?
- [27:05]
Carol Leonnig
I have so many thoughts about why there is this sort of drum roll that has followed Donald Trump's tweet to Pam Bondi, indict these people, essentially. His tweet essentially said, do it. Charge them. They're guilty as hell. And we know that there are questions about the facts being used to bring these charges against them. But we know the laundry list essentially, of humans that Donald Trump is angry with and wants some retribution from and some payback from. That includes Adam Schiff, Democratic senator who led the impeachment trial. That includes Letitia James, Democratic attorney general, who humiliated and cost Donald Trump a lot of money in legal fees by bringing a civil fraud case against him, in which she was successful in holding him liable for basically being a serial fraudster as the head of the Trump Organization, misleading the irs, misleading his clients, et cetera. Who else is on the list? James Comey, who refused to meet Donald Trump's loyalty test when he was his FBI director in Trump's first administration and also refused to, you know, basically absolve Donald Trump publicly. That's what Trump asked Jim Comey to do. Just let people know that I didn't do anything wrong and also let that guy, Michael Flynn, my former national security guy. Go. A guy who had lied to the FBI and also lied about the money he had received from the Turkish government to lobby on their behalf and illegally failed to disclose that to the federal government. Who else is he angry with? And has on his list anyone who has, in his view, questioned his imperial authority? Let's add John Brennan, your guest, to this group, who has been fairly unflinching in his description of why he feels so strongly that Donald Trump's method of governance is equal to a dictatorship. Who else is on the list? The one thing they have in common is these people have made Donald Trump uncomfortable. They've investigated him. They've put on sort of flashcards for the American people. This is a person who is either a fraudster or leading the country in a dangerous direction. Those claims by all of those individuals, some of them very factually detailed, have landed them on a list, which means they are now vulnerable to criminal prosecution.
- [30:02]
Nicole Wallace
Well, I mean, you add Mark Milley, Mark Esper, John Bolton, Mark Elias. Mark Elias, Andrew Weissman. You've got all kinds of people on.
- [30:09]
MSNBC Host or Announcer
The show here, too.
- [30:11]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, I think Mary and Andrew make the crossover enemies list with Kash Patel and Donald Trump and Steve Bannon, I believe, Andrew McCabe, Pete Strzok, Lisa Pate. I mean, it is, it is a list of people that weren't just critical, but that were advocates for the truth and the rule of law and sort of verifiable U.S. intelligence. Mary McCord, your thoughts on today's indictment of Tish James.
- [30:42]
Mary McCord
I mean, I can't say it's unexpected, as Carol and everyone else has been talking about. As soon as that directive came out to Pam Bondi and Eric Siebert was fired and Lindsey Halligan was put in his seat, you know, it was sort of inevitable this was going to happen. And, you know, one of the things I'd like to know, we were talking a minute ago, you were talking with the guests about motions to dismiss on the grounds of selective and vindictive prosecution and frankly, just outrageous government conduct in violation of due process. One of the things I'd like to see and that I think Pat Fitzgerald in the Comey case and Abby Lowell in this case will want, is some discovery related to the vindictive prosecution, including what Lindsey Halligan said to this grand jury. You know, grand jury proceedings are normally secret, and there's no, there's no judge in there who's determining whether what is being presented is being presented fairly obviously. Andrew and I presented lots of cases to grand juries in our time. And, you know, because people out there may be thinking you all can be talking about vindictive prosecution, but a grand jury returned an indictment. We know from the Comey indictment that they barely returned that indictment and declined to return it on one count. We don't know yet what the vote was, as we've been discussing earlier on this. But it's also about how was it presented. Yes, the standard is low. It's only probable cause. And so I could see grand jurors, particularly, if I heard correctly, this was their very first day of service being sworn in, maybe the first case. So they haven't had any sort of framework of comparison about what's the, what's the quantum of evidence that really meets probable cause. You know, if they're, if they're a brand new grand jury, but how was it presented to them? I'd be very curious to know that. I don't think it would have been presented in a necessarily vindictive way, but just what kind of instructions were given right where they read the elements of these crimes that they needed to find probable cause for. And even if they could get over that probable cause hurdle, because as we talk about all the time, rangers at least are sometimes accused of and would be willing to indict a ham sandwich, there's a much higher burden to come if this case ever gets to trial. And that's beyond a reasonable doubt. And it can't be 14 out of 23. It's got to be all 12 jurors unanimous. And it's hard to imagine, based on the facts that have become publicly reported about this investigation of mortgage fraud, it's hard to see how jurors could ever get there. But again, if it ever gets there, there are a couple hurdles. There are going to be these motions and there's going to be a motion to disqualify Lindsey Halligan. I feel certain about that.
- [33:19]
Andrew Weissman
And these are times for courts to.
- [33:21]
Mary McCord
Stand strong and apply the law. And it's hard to get a case thrown out on vindictive prosecution. But we just saw a judge in Tennessee ordered discovery with respect to the criminal prosecution of Kilmara Abrego Garcia, because judges are not having the kind of shenanigans that this, this Department of Justice is trying to pull in terms of the misuse of the criminal enforcement mechanism that is so powerful that they wield.
- [33:48]
Nicole Wallace
I want to bring into Our coverage the Rev. Al Sharpton rev. We just have a statement coming in from Attorney General Tish J. She says this is Nothing more than a continuation of the President's desperate weaponization of our justice system. I am not fearful. I am fearless. We will fight these baseless charges aggressively, and my office will continue to fiercely protect New Yorkers and their rights. Actually, we just got the video and let me play it for you.
- [34:16]
Andrew Weissman
Rev.
- [34:19]
Letitia James
President's ACTION this is nothing more than a continuation of the President's desperate weaponization of our justice system. He is forcing federal law enforcement agencies to do his bidding, all because I did my job as a New York State Attorney General. These charges are baseless, and the President's own public statements make clear that his only goal is political retribution at any cost. The President's actions are a grave violation of our constitutional order and have drawn sharp criticism from members of both parties. His decision to fire a United States attorney who refused to bring charges against me and replace them with someone who is blindly loyal not to the law, but to the President is antithetical to the bedrock principles of our country. This is the time for leaders on both sides of the aisle to speak out against this blatant perversion of our system of justice. I stand strongly behind my office's litigation against the Trump Organization. We conducted a two year investigation based on the facts, evidence, not politics. Judges have upheld the trial court's finding that Donald Trump, his company and his two sons are liable for fraud. I'm a proud woman of faith, and I know that faith and fear cannot share the same space. And so today, I'm not fearful. I'm fearless. And as my faith teaches me, no weapon formed against me shall prosper. We will fight these baseless charges aggressively, and my office will continue to fiercely protect New Yorkers and their rights. And I will continue to do my job.
- [36:29]
Nicole Wallace
Wow. Rev. Speaking to the moment with words crafted for the history of these times.
- [36:38]
Rev. Al Sharpton
No question about it. And I think that if he were going to pick an enemy, he picked the wrong one. Because the strength as well as the eloquence of Tish James will now be on the national stage. Because one, I agree with some of the panelists that the case will probably be thrown out. If it is not, it is going to really expose the weaponization of this president against any of his political enemies or his perceived enemies. To have Lisa Cook in the Federal Reserve and Tish James accrue accused almost of the same crime and then he goes after Comey. This is a man that just a year and a half, two years ago, was saying that he was the victim of politicization of the criminal justice system and Juries found him guilty. Let's not forget when Tish James and the State Attorney General's office of New York prosecuted his companies and him and his university, they didn't find him guilty. The juries found him guilty. The prosecutor can't say you guilty. They can say you are accused indicting you. He was found guilty of sexual harassment by a jury. He was found 34 counts, felonies, criminal, by a jury. So there's no one that can doubt that this is all vengeance, a misuse of the criminal justice system. And I think that what he's done is going to really backfire. I think I've been getting calls already. People are ready to rally around Tis James. They know Tis James. Tis James wouldn't cross on a red light. I mean, she's annoying. She's been so had so much integrity. I grew up in Brooklyn on her. And I think that it is absolutely absurd. He has just started the reelection campaign for her because people are gonna rally around her that may have stayed out of it because it is blatant what he's doing. In the same week, you're gonna arraign James Comey and you're going to indict the state attorney general. And both of them were people that dealt on the other side of you. I mean, people are not that stupid.
- [38:54]
Nicole Wallace
Rev, you said you know her and she's annoyingly a stickler for rules and the law. Say a little bit more about her personally. Carol Lennig, our colleague, reported earlier that she and her attorney were prepared for the possibility of this. I think those of us still maybe delusional enough to think that facts would prevail in Trump's Department of Justice are still shocked by it. But it sounds like our reporting suggests she was prepared for this.
- [39:21]
Rev. Al Sharpton
She's a very methodical, able person. She will go after friend and foe and look into whatever allegations she considers. Right? And she does her homework. And she, I'm sure when he first started tweeting that she and others put his name out there. I mean, he doesn't even know how to whisper weaponization. He, you know, he takes a megaphone and says, I'm going to go after so and so and these are the people that are going to do it. So I'm sure she started preparing then. You must remember Tish James was not a machine candidate. She ran and won a popular support. When she lost a Democratic primary for a local seat, she won, went on the public advocate, went on the state attorney general. Some were pushing her to be governor. So this is somebody that is not predictable in terms of her politics, but predictable in terms of her integrity and her being able and capable of being coming in the ring full prepared. And if you really want to fight, I don't think you want to fight with her. And I think that this will backfire on him if, in fact, they don't throw the case out. I don't see how this stands the light of day like Lisa Cook's allegations did. But if it does, I think that this is going to be exposed for what it is and I think a jury will see through it.
- [40:54]
Nicole Wallace
Rev, stay with us. Andrew Weissman, you have some new analysis for us.
- [41:00]
Andrew Weissman
So I want to sort of build on what the Rev is talking about, which is thinking about what is going on here with the Comey indictment and now the Tish James indictment. And we've been comparing it to other perceived enemies. So far, the strategy has been to pick these sort of what appear to be sort of relatively minor allegations that are not core to anything because they don't open the door. They don't expose Donald Trump himself. So, for instance, you don't see this sort of much vaunted claims by the president that everyone who was involved in the January 6 committee should be charged, it was all criminal, that would open the door to the January 6th investigation, actually have a trial. And all of the things that Donald Trump doesn't want the public to hear would be front and center. So here you have what he thinks are going to be relatively safe because they're about sort of like what did your mortgage application look like or what did you say to Congress and was it correct or incorrect? And I don't think what he is calculated on is one, what the Rev said is you have two individuals now who are incredibly charismatic, articulate, smart people who believe in the rule of law and justice. And so these are very formidable adversaries who have now been given a large, really large megaphone to speak out and to make sure people understand what's going on. And I agree with Rev. This is not complicated to see that they have been targeted in both of these cases. And so I think that between that and the claims of vindictive prosecution that could lead to the discovery of the communications between the White House and the Justice Department really could be a huge misstep and misfire. So I know we are in a grave, terrible moment in this country. But I do think that there's a ray of hope here is I think that these cases could both explode in ways that really lets the American people see sort of how blatant this is and backfires on them in the same way that the Jimmy Kimmel actions really backfired.
- [43:29]
Nicole Wallace
You know, Mark Elias, it's interesting that Comey's video statement made this point about not being afraid. Tish James made it even more forcefully. And you, when you contrast that to the cowering and the cowardice at law firms like Paul Weiss, at universities that have capitulated in advance to the writings of Tim Snyder, page one of On Tyranny is not about the power that the authoritarian grabs. It's about the power that everyone else cedes in advance.
- [43:58]
Carol Leonnig
Yeah, that's absolutely right. I mean, I think that the defining moment of our political system, the defining moment of our judicial system, is not really a left, right divide. I mean, it is hard to really make a lot of sense of the debate if you think about this ideological. What it is, is, it is people who believe that right now we are in the midst of an authoritarian takeover of our country and have the courage to stand up and to speak out, whether they feel fear or not. I mean, I don't actually believe that Tish James is not afraid. It's okay to be afraid like you've just been. The question is not whether you're afraid. The question is, what do you do? I'm sure John Brennan will say he's not afraid, but he'd be dumb not to be afraid because the President of the United States is going after you. But the question is, what do you do with that fear? Do you cower? Do you back down? Do you compromise? Or do you stand up and stand tall and fight back and speak the truth? And that is, right now, the divide of our generation. It's the divide of our time. And so I give it a normal credit to Tish James for being in that, in being willing at this dark time in her life. You know, whatever else going on, don't think this is a highlight of her life. Right? This is a dark time. She is willing to stand up and speak out and project strength because that's what Donald Trump hates the most.
- [45:19]
Nicole Wallace
We'll let John Brennan respond to that. We'll get back to our table. We have to sneak in a quick break before we do all that. Don't go anymore.
- [45:33]
Letitia James
I'm a proud woman of faith, and I know that faith and fear cannot share the same space. And so today, I'm not fearful. I'm fearless. And as my faith teaches me, no weapon formed against me shall prosper. We will fight these baseless charges Aggressively. And my office will continue to fiercely protect New Yorkers and their rights. And I will continue to do my job.
- [46:04]
Nicole Wallace
We are back with too many people to name. They include Andrew Weissman, John Brennan, the Reverend Al Sharpton, Mary McCor, John Heilman, Lisa Rubin, and Mark Elias. Director Brennan, your name was in vogue because you are always included in the list of people that Donald Trump and. And his. I was going to say his political allies, but they're now government officials. They're now people whose salaries are paid by American taxpayers. And they are propagating lies about US Intelligence. They are purging the intelligence community of people who undercut their rationales for doing things like blowing up boats, using the military in unprecedented ways. And I wonder what your, you know, where does your desire to stay public? A lot of people haven't made this choice come from?
- [47:03]
Well, you know, watching those videos of Tish James and Jim Comey, what comes through clearly to me is their confidence. They're confident of their innocence, and they recognize that these are unserious charges being brought by unserious people and that they will prevail. You know, I feel, Nicole, every time I'm on your show, I do my own video here in terms of, you know, and I've said I don't cower, and I'm not going to be intimidated by the likes of Donald Trump. I can't control what he does or what the Department of Justice does or what the various prosecutors might do. I can control what I do. And I feel confident that my actions, my previous actions when I was in government were fully consistent with my authorities and the law. And so therefore. And I know Marx says, you know, I should be afraid, quite frankly, I'm not. I'm confident, just like others are, that the truth ultimately will prevail. And I'm very hopeful that our system of justice is going to be stronger than Donald Trump's attempts to corrupt it, to undermine it. And so, therefore, just looking at this, James, I mean, look at her face. Look how confident she was that she is going to prevail over this. And she is a person. Both Jim and Tish, they've dedicated their life to the law. They're schooled in the law. And so therefore, that, to me, is heartening. And I think it gives people like myself and others even more confident confidence that we're going to be able to deal with this issue and we're going to come through it.
- [48:24]
You know, Mary, what's so hard to articulate is just how restrained everybody was about Donald Trump. I mean, Donald Trump was so brazen about the things he did and the rule of law wasn't really designed for that. So the investigations from the outside felt so slow and tedious and, and deliberate. And it was such a mismatch of his brazenness. And what you see now is a complete inverse, right? These lifelong public servants who were so reluctant to ever scrutinize Donald Trump as a candidate and then as a president, and then as an ex president who incited a deadly insurrection are the ones now being targeted for the things that Donald Trump projected having to have happen to him. And I wonder how you, you must be able to say it better than I did. I think a two year old could. But how do you square those two asymmetries?
- [49:31]
Mary McCord
Well, you know, the whole American public could see the crimes that Donald Trump was charged with committing. We have videos, we have audio, we have, you know, the things he said. We have him ev of him pressuring his own Department of Justice to launch sham investigations. We have video of what he said to really incite those who went and attacked violently, the US Capitol, the House of Congress, people within that building and outside that building, including law enforcement. And so there's just also a sheer sort of massive difference in the weight of these offenses and alleged offenses, I should say, you know, one that's just open and notorious for the, for the American public to scrutinize. And these others that even if you put any credit in these indictments, these are very, very minor offenses even as charged. And you know, where is the federal interest, even if there's validity to them. And we know that in two different offices of the Eastern District of Virginia, the people who were responsible for the investigating these cases, career people. And one who was then put into a political position after being career, said the evidence is insufficient. I just saw the reporting from Candelanian and Carol Lennig about what the top prosecutor in the Norfolk office, the office responsible for returning this indictment, but really not the office, really, Lindsay Halligan, you know, that, that, that person in charge said there was, was concerned that there just wasn't probable cause here. So, you know, not only do we have almost no transparency into what these folks were being charged, charged with, it is just the, the as you said it right, the asymmetry just screams out at us. And one, and partly the reason it does is because there were good and valid reasons for those investigations of Donald Trump. I only talked about January 6th, but we could talk about Mar a Lago. There are thousands, you know, hundreds and Hundreds of classified documents here. You know, what are the good and valid reasons, you know what the reasons are that Donald Trump wanted them prosecuted as vengeance for what he perceived them to have done to him. That's the reason. It's not because of a federal interest. It's not because of strong evidence. It's not because of anything that should be the things that we use, again, that vast power of the Department of Justice to frankly, waste time on. There are, you know, Donald Trump's out there every day talking about crime, crime, crime, crime. And this is the kind of thing that you're putting resources into. That's, if nothing else, that should make the American people unhappy.
- [52:19]
Nicole Wallace
The American people will have this thrust before them on October 24th at 9:00am in Norfolk, Virginia. That is when Attorney General Tish James makes her initial appearance in court.
- [52:32]
MSNBC Host or Announcer
I feel as though the hour is near. We're almost done here. And I've been wanting throughout this entire conversation to go back to something that Andrew said earlier in the, in the two hours, nine hours ago, I don't.
- [52:45]
Carol Leonnig
Know, two days ago.
- [52:46]
MSNBC Host or Announcer
Right. I mean, some vortex he made this point about. He talked about Abbey Lowell representing Hunter Biden and now representing Tish James.
- [52:55]
Andrew Weissman
Right.
- [52:56]
Carol Leonnig
I just.
- [52:57]
MSNBC Host or Announcer
For anybody who forgets about this, you know, his point, Andrew's point was that people see this as tit for tat. And the Trump people say the lawfare was the Biden administration. And we are now going after those who weaponized the law. We're going after those who practice lawfare against us. It really is worth thinking about Hunter Biden for a second because Hunter Biden was charged December of 2023, federal grand jury, nine tax related charges, and then in September of 2023, actually a few months earlier, in Delaware on two counts of making full statements on the guns charges. Right. Five indictments, two different cases, two different venues, all brought by an investigation that went on in the first two and a half years of Joe Biden's administration. Nobody who ever knows Joe Biden doesn't understand how important his family is to him, doesn't understand how much it hurt him personally, doesn't understand how much on the eve of a reelection campaign, the President's so indicted on multiple charges at a federal level in two different venues. There is literally nothing worse that could have happened to Joe Biden personally and politically than those two things. That's how he saw it, that's how he felt about it. Okay. That in and of itself is the strongest refutation of the notion that there was lawfare going on in some pervasive way in the Biden administration. And I will raise this point now. Can anybody here imagine there being federal indictments against any of the president's children in the course of the next three and a half years? I mean, of course not. It is beyond. I mean, it's not just. Of course not. I mean, it's not just. No. It says everything, right.
- [54:41]
Nicole Wallace
Like if Tom Homan's Kappa bag of cash is all good. Yeah, that's where we are. Thank you to all of you. I know it's hard to say no on live TV with no commercials to say, hey, why'd you do that? But thank you, you all, for staying for the two hours. Andrew Weissman, John Brennan, the Reverend Al Sharpton, Mary McCor, John Heilman, Lisa Rubin and Mark Elias. Our thanks. We're going to fit in, I think our second break in two hours. Ari Melver will pick up our coverage on the other side.
- [55:13]
MSNBC Host or Announcer
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Carol Leonnig
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Rev. Al Sharpton
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Carol Leonnig
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