C (2:28)

When folks on the ground are going to follow suit and say even worse.

D (2:34)

This is where we start the hour with Democratic Congressman Chris d' Aluzio of Pennsylvania. Congressman d' Aluzio is one of the six Democratic lawmakers accused by President Donald Trump, the President of the United States, of, quote, seditious behavior punishable by death, end quote. He was an active duty surface warfare officer in the United States Navy who served our country in Iraq. Also joining us, Democratic Congressman Jamie Raskin of Maryland. Congressman d', Aluisio, can you add to what Congressman Crow and Senator Slotkin have shared about the threat environment around you and your family?

C (3:09)

Yeah, it's. As you can imagine, almost as soon as the president called for our arrest and our death, those threats started coming in a pretty steady clip. My district offices today received bomb threats, and I'm thankful my team and I are safe and that law enforcement responded. But now, law enforcement, those cops are wasting their time putting their resources toward responding to these bomb threats instead of patrolling our communities to keep us safe. This isn't about me. It's not about my colleagues who are threatened. It's about our democracy and whether we are going to have a president who respects the rule of law. To see this guy threaten death and violence against his political rivals for simply stating a basic principle of our constitutional order tells me all I need to know about who he is. It's a moment for patriots to condemn these calls for political violence.

D (3:58)

Congressman d', Aluzia, were you. Did the six of you intend to speak directly to the men and women of the military to simply remind them of the oath they've taken or just. Just go back, rewind the tape and tell us how, how the video came to be and what you thought Trump's reaction might be?

C (4:16)

Well, far be it for me to think that the president's reaction would be to call for our hanging. I certainly wouldn't have guessed that. But look, it's a, it's a basic, bedrock principle. Our troops, our service members, you've got to comply with lawful orders. And no one can force anyone in the military to follow illegal ones. That's something you learn for me and plebe summer at the Naval Academy, if you went to boot camp, officer candidate school, you name it, you train on those issues. You game out scenarios in uniform to make sure you're ready if you find yourself in that kind of horrible position. And yet there's reporting, I'm sure you've talked about it on this show and others, of people in uniform, of people in the government. A veteran's very concerned about whether they might be placed in a position to have to make those kinds of terrible decisions, and you train before you're ever placed in that position, which is why we simply reminded people and said the basic thing, that you follow lawful orders, that our oath to the Constitution comes first, and no one can force you to follow illegal orders. That's a central principle in our constitutional republic.

D (5:21)

Congressman d'. Aluisio. General John Kelly did a rare recorded audio interview before the election, warning the country, the voting public, that Donald Trump met the technical definitions of a dictator, talked about how he viewed the generals, as my generals constantly called them my generals. At the beginning of this second term, he insisted on Pete Hegseth being the Secretary of defense, even though there was concern from Democrats and Republicans. And one of the early moves that Mr. Hegseth made was to fire some of the lawyers who, who do what you all advocated, who make sure that orders are legal and constitutional. Do you believe that Donald Trump has already issued illegal orders?

C (6:08)

I don't know. I'm not aware that he has. I don't know every order that's been issued from the White House, I'm down and far beyond me to guess. But that doesn't change the fact that there are very real concerns. And look, his then Secretary of Defense in this first administration, in front of General Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, reported that Donald Trump directed and floated the idea of shooting civilians, having active duty troops shoot civilians in the legs. This is a guy who seems to have no regard for the rule of law. And the best evidence I can point to in the last 24 hours is the fact that he called for my death and the death of my colleagues who are political rivals for simply stating the law. That is not the conduct of someone who is ready to meet the moment to be our president who won an election. This is a moment, I think, the American people to say enough that we condemn this violence, and he has to turn it down.

D (6:57)

Congressman Raskin, you are one of the esteemed group of lawmakers from the January 6 select committee who investigated all of Donald Trump's conduct on that day. And one of the things that is clear is that the violence which took place on tv, which we all saw, did not deter him, did not make him feel that he had to jump out of his seat, jump out of the Oval Office and run down to the briefing room and call for an end to it. Can you just detail for us again what your investigation turned up about his personal reaction to the violence that his supporters were carrying out at the Capitol?

B (7:37)

Well, he sat on his hands for more than three hours, despite bipartisan appeals from Republican and Democratic leaders in Congress begging him to send in the National Guard, which he had unilaterally authority over, because it's the National Guard in the District of Columbia. He evidently did not perceive any sedition or any insurrection going on with the wounding and the injury of more than 140 police officers who ended up disabled, disfigured in the hospital, and so on. And the amazing thing about what's transpired with Congressman d' Aluzio and our other colleagues is that he haspresident Trump has accused them of sedition, which, of course, they have not engaged in. They are fulfilling their oaths of office in a very honorable way simply by stating the reality that nobody can follow an unlawful order of a president or of anybody else. But what was fascinating about January 6th was there were many people who were actually convicted of seditious conspiracy, including Enrique Tarrio, the head of the Proud Boys, who was in very close touch with Donald Trump's associate, Roger Stone. Others involved in the conspiracy to try to block the peaceful transfer of power and to drive the House and Senate out of our chambers. Tarrio was sentenced to 22 years in prison. If memory serves, there were at least three other Proud Boys who were convicted of seditious conspiracy. And, you know, they're part of the 1,600 people who were pardoned by Donald Trump. So evidently, real sedition, real insurrection doesn't trouble him. What he doesn't like is members of Congress actually standing up for the Constitution, despite the fact that the president's core job is to take care that the laws are faithfully executed, not frustrated and not defeated.

D (9:34)

Carson Raskin, why do you think this was so triggering for Donald Trump? Why not? I mean, I was thinking, why didn't they just retweet the video themselves and say, of course the men and women of the military should only follow legal orders, and I do solemnly swear that all my orders will be legal. I mean, why do you think this was so agitating that he's gone on that Fox has picked, pick this up and run with it, attacking your colleagues.

C (10:01)

And.

D (10:04)

Some of the people that come to the House and the Senate with these backgrounds that contribute so much to elected office? I mean, why do you think this was so bothersome to Trump and his supporters?

B (10:19)

Well, I think there were some events close in time that precipitated that reaction. One, of course, was the smashing Democratic victories across the land. Another was the massive repudiation that Trump suffered in Congress. When we had a near unanimous vote we only lost one vote demanding the release of the Epstein files and then unanimous consent to go along with that in the Senate. But there's, I think, a significant glimpse into his psyche in answer to your question, when he had an interaction with the reporter at the press conference with the homicidal Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman of Saudi Arabia. And the reporter very bravely raised. Raised Mohammed bin Salman's ordering of the assassination of journalist Jamal Khashoggi. And Trump basically reprimanded her and said that she was being insubordinate. He disapproved her. Insubordinate question. I think he thinks that everybody is essentially in the employ of the US Armed Forces and he can order them to do whatever he wants. And he did conduct illegal orders when he sent troops into the District District of Columbia, a court just found. Judge Breyer in San Francisco said that the deployment of troops to Los Angeles was an unlawful order. So there have been a number of unlawful orders he's engaged in. But I think we got a glimpse into his thinking when he decided to dress down that reporter and accuse her of insubordination. The American people don't work for the president. The president works for the American people.

D (11:57)

Congressman, let me show you how casually Donald Trump talked about the threats of hanging for his own vice president with journalist Jonathan Karl.

B (12:09)

Were you worried about him during that siege?

E (12:11)

Were you worried about his safe harm?

A (12:13)

I thought he was well protected.

E (12:14)

And I had heard that he was in good shape. No, because I had heard he was in very good shape. But no, as you heard those chants, that was terrible. He could have. Well, the people were very angry. They were saying, hang my common sense, John, it's common sense that you're supposed to protect. How can you, if you know a vote is fraudulent. Right. How can you pass on a fraudulent vote to Congress?

D (12:44)

Congressman d', Aluzio, I guess the most generous way to interpret that is that he believed there was protection for Mike Pence. And so the gallows that were erected outside of the Capitol to hang Mike Pence, which was what they were saying out loud, wasn't a threat, or we saw a video Mike Pence running. Obviously, Mike Pence's Secret Service detail thought it was a grave enough threat to order him to run. A protectee doesn't run unless they're ordered to run by the people who protect him or her. What does it mean that he is now threatening lawmakers who do something he doesn't like, with treason punishable by. By death at this point in his presidency?

C (13:34)

I'm not surprised. I wish I could say I were. But for the reasons you just laid out and so many others, the only decent and honorable response to your vice president being threatened with murder is to use every power you have to say no, to speak up, to condemn it. And yet, of course, we know he didn't. And for that same man to see me and others restate the law and to threaten us with death, I'm not surprised. But what I will tell you is I have been encouraged by so many across the political spectrum finally saying enough is enough, certainly for my. My constituents and neighbors in Pennsylvania. But I'd like to hear more from Republicans in elected office, and they should be asked quite clearly, can you condemn the president's call for the death of your colleagues, his calls for violence, his calls for us to be hanged? That shouldn't be hard. So many of us condemn the killing of Charlie Kirk. I condemned it. I condemned the attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Pennsylvania near me. I condemned the killings or the attempted killing of Josh Shapiro and so many others. This should not be hard. This should be something that everyone in the country can do to say, enough. No more political violence, no more threats of it.

D (14:43)

I mean, Carson Raskin, to that point, I think the country collectively grieved the loss of a young man that many of us disagreed with absolutely everything he believed politically. But this was, you know, a young person in the political arena. Universal condemnation from one side and a lot of uncomfortable silence when some of their own colleagues are threatened with death or accused of treason on the other. Can you solve the danger or the threat of political violence in America with only one of the two parties behind ending that climate?

B (15:22)

Well, we need both parties to speak out, and we need mass movements of nonviolent people like the no Kings movement, also to stand very strong for nonviolence. Like Chris d', Luzio, I voted for the resolution deploring and denouncing the outrageous assassination of Charlie Kirk, even though the Republicans did everything they could to insert a lot of surplus rhetorical verbiage in there about the substance of his views, which was meant to, you know, turn it into a gotcha resolution against Democrats. But we've got to universally denounce political violence as an illegitimate form of action in a democratic society. Political violence and assassination have no place here. But of course, they have a real history here. And we've seen the way that a lot of our great leaders like John F. Kennedy, Robert F. Kennedy, Dr. King, were assassinated. And I think it's just absolutely shameful and unacceptable for A President of the United States not to take a very clear, categorical line denouncing political violence. And that's why his answer to the reporter in the White House about Mohammed bin Salman was so shameful, because what he said was, well, things happen. When she raised the assassination of Jamal Khashoggi, he said things happen. But you know, this guy, Mohammed Ben, the crown Prince, is a great guy. I mean, that's just absolutely scandalous. But because the Trump family is in business with the royal family in Saudi Arabia, all is forgiven. I mean, that is just not an acceptable position for a leader of a democracy. We've got to be on the side of nonviolent democracy rather than on the side of the monarchs, the kings, the autocrats, the dictators and the bullies.

D (17:14)

I mean, Carson Raskin, to your point, I saw Colonel Vindman and Jamal Khashoggi's wife today calling for a release of the transcript of the conversation, if one exists, between Mohammed bin Salman and Donald Trump. Is that something that if the Democrats regain control of the committees, you would like to see yourself?

B (17:36)

Absolutely. Although I don't think there's too much suspense about what was said, because after all, Donald Trump has bragged about having saved the royal Crown Prince's posterior by helping to cover up the assassination. And remember, it was MBS's security detail of 17 officers who went to Istanbul and apprehended Jamal Khashoggi, strangled him, draw, you know, drew and quartered him, dismembered him and, you know, left himleft him for dead. And our intelligence agencies determined that that was ordered from the top. And this is the guy that he was just celebr and toasting in the White House and reprimanding a reporter for having questioned in any way saying she was being insubordinate. And so no surprise that he turns around and describes our colleagues as seditionists and says that sedition is punishable by murder. So we've got to get this back to American constitutional democracy. The things he's saying are obviously impeachable. And if any member of Congress ever said that about the president, that would raise the exact same questions. But we've got to try to get the whole society to just draw a line now and say that's intolerable.

D (18:58)

Yeah, I mean, and you raise a good point. Insubordinate to whom? I mean, she works up a chain of management at her own news organization. It's another little mask off moment.

B (19:08)

And he threatened to, he threatened to revoke their license, too, before it was all over, right?

D (19:14)

No, it was a poo poo platter of autocratic utterances. Congressman Jamie Raskin, Congressman Chris d', Aluzio, thank you both so much for starting us off today. When we come back, as Donald Trump's political fortunes seem to sink ever deeper, the resistance to his dictatorial ways is growing in America. Former Metropolitan Police officer Michael Fanon, who is attacked by Trump supporters on January six, will tell us about a big protest he's involved with Tomorrow in Washington, D.C. and later, we are thrilled to welcome back to our table. Dear friend Ken Burns, the Emmy award winning filmmaker will be with us as his docu series the American Revolution continues to explore our founding and preview the debates that still animated Ms. Animate us today. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

A (20:00)

Ms. Now presents season two of the Blueprint hosted by Jen Psaki. In each episode, she talks to leading Democrats about how they plan to win again, including Texas Congressman Greg Cassar, who chairs the Progressive caucus, Congresswoman Sarah McBride of Delaware, the first openly trans person elected to Congress and more who are helping to shape the future of the party. The Blueprint with Jen Psaki Season 2 All episodes available now.

D (20:32)

As public support for Donald Trump's second term as president continues to collapse, a new campaign is underway to hold accountable major companies that have capitulated to Trump over the last 10 months and cooperated with the Trump administration's demands and policies. It's coming just in time for the busiest shopping season of the year. The campaign is called We Ain't Buyin it, with supporters being asked to not shop at three of the nation's largest retailers. Target, who's being targeted for caving to the Trump administration's attacks on dei, Home Depot for allowing ICE agents to conduct Donald Trump's immigration crackdown on their store properties and Amazon for what this movement calls funding the Trump administration in order to secure its own tax cuts. And this weekend, the resistance to the Trump administration will be visible to right in Donald Trump's backyard. With a major rally calling for Trump's removal taking place tomorrow at the Lincoln Memorial. I want to bring in retired D.C. police officer Michael Fanone. He'll be a speaker at this weekend's remove the regime protest against Donald Trump. It's nice to have you back here. Tell me what you've seen that makes you confident this is the right tactic, either in the wake of the Jimmy Kimmel response from the public or the large numbers of people coming to see you and coming to know. King's protest. Why why are you sure that this is the right way?

A (21:54)

I mean, for me, it's about holding the administration accountable. I mean, what we've seen and witnessed and, I mean, obviously, I don't have time. I don't think we don't even have. It would take more than a lifetime to go through all the list of unlawful and unconstitutional acts that the administration has accomplished. Now, with its 11 months, it's time to impeach, convict, and remove Donald Trump. The American people are not. We're not waiting for 2026. We want to pressure members of Congress to act now. And. And I think this latest behavior on behalf of the president in calling for the hanging of sitting members of Congress and senators is just another act, another action in a long list of actions that are impeachable and should deserve action. It's time for Donald Trump to go. It's time for some return to normalcy, and it's time for accountability for this administration and its unlawful actions.

D (23:08)

I mean, on his accusation of sedition for the six Democratic lawmakers, all of whom serve their country in the military or in national security capacity, you've been on the receiving end of his supporters when they're incited to violence. Can you just remind people the hell that that was?

A (23:28)

Well, first, I gotta tell you, Donald Trump advocates for the use of political violence. He advocates for violence to achieve his political ends. You don't get to say something like, we should hang my political opponents for simply restating the fact that military service members have an obligation to obey lawful orders and not to obey unlawful orders. But that's what Donald Trump does. And then he goes, and out of, in the same breath, he'll say, well, I condemn political violence when people are inspired by his rhetoric, Rick, and commit acts of violence. But take it one step further. I mean, we all witnessed what happened. To me on January 6th, and to hundreds of my colleagues, Donald Trump gave a speech. Donald Trump told his supporters that the election was stolen, which was a lie. He told his supporters to go to the Capitol, which they did, and they stormed the Capitol in an attempt to overturn a free and fair election, and in doing so, so beat the living hell out of a hell of a lot of law enforcement officers that were just there doing their job. Donald Trump advocated for that. Donald Trump supported that effort on behalf of his followers. And then taking it even a step further, for those of you that might be out there saying, no, no, no, he didn't want that. He pardoned the people that assaulted the police officers. He pardoned the Six individuals that almost beat me to death for no other reason than I was a uniformed police officer standing in their way from getting into the Capitol and potentially killing members of Congress. So let that sink in. Donald Trump is the problem. You know, I was listening to the previous segment you had Jamie Raskin, and Jamie Raskin was talking about, you know, we need people to stand up peacefully and remove this administrator or stand up peacefully against this administration. And I agree with that. But I'll take it a step further, and I'm going to say this. This we won't have peace in this country until we remove the root cause of the problem, the political violence, the culture that has been cultivated by Donald J. Trump and his MAGA extremist movement. Donald Trump is the reason that we are experiencing all of these politically motivated acts of violence across the country. And it should bother Democrats, Democrats and Republicans alike, because this culture affects both sides, whether it's the assassination of Charlie Kirk or whether it's the assassination of the two Democratic lawmakers. Both of those events, Donald Trump paid a hand in by creating this culture and normalizing this violent behavior.

D (26:26)

One of the people that he pardoned for his role in January 6, NBC News is reporting that pardoned Capitol rioter tried to bribe child sex victim with promise of January 6th payout. Let me read you some of this reporting. The child said Andrew Johnson molested him three times from April to October 2024, beginning when he was 11 years old. The child said he confronted Johnson, who apologized and told the child not to tell anyone, quote, since he would get in trouble. The affidavit says Johnson mailed the child an iPhone, told him to keep it a secret. The sheriff's office said an affidavit that discord messages show Johnson sneaking into the child's home to take him food and hang out with him. He also told the child that, quote, since he was pardoned for storming the Capitol on January 6, 2021, and he was being awarded $10 million as a result of being a Jan Sixer, he would be putting him in his will to take any money he had left over. Those are the people that received pardons from Donald Trump. Any surprise on your part?

C (27:24)

No.

A (27:24)

I mean, this is just another one of many, many examples that should contradict the Republican narrative that the individuals that went to the Capitol on January 6th were the best of us, that these were people that love this country and who are good, wholesome Americans. No, they're criminals. These were people that are predisposed to violence. They had histories of violence. The reason that so many of them receive such stiff sentences wasn't because the judges were motivated by the politics of the moment. It's because the judges were forced to do that because these individuals had so many prior convictions that it placed them in a bracket that necessitated stiff sentences. And so that is the reality of January 6th. The reality of the hardcore MAGA base is that these are anti government individuals. They're violent white supremacists. And that is who Donald Trump has invited into our political discourse. And that's a big part of why today you have tens of thousands of threats flowing into the United States Capitol Police on a daily basis. And it's because of Donald Trump and MAGA extremists.

D (28:53)

Yeah. And it's borne out by the tapes released by Jason Crow, Congressman Jason Crow on social media. Scary stuff. Michael Fanone, we're always grateful to get to talk to you. Thank you for joining us today.

A (29:04)

Thank you all.

D (29:06)

This week there's been a new one every night. It's such a treat. The brand new documentary series the American Revolution has brought our country's original origin story to our living rooms at a time when thinking about our history and the intentions of our founders couldn't be more urgently important. We are so excited to welcome Emmy award winning filmmaker Ken Burns back to the show. He'll be our guest after a quick break.

A (29:32)

Ms. NOW presents the chart topping original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. This week she sits down with American historian Heather Cox Richardson.

E (29:42)

Where we are looks a great deal like the periods in our history when.

C (29:46)

We have reclaimed democracy and built something more inclusive.

A (29:49)

On the other side, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. Listen now for early access ad free listening and bonus content. Subscribe to Ms. Now premium on Apple Podcasts.

D (30:04)

We are so happy we bask in the greatness of our friend Emmy award winning filmmaker Ken Burns, who is back at the table with us today every night. This week he premiered a brand new episode of his incredible documentary series the American Revolution. About us, about our nation's founding principles and promise. It's more than a decade in the making, but a timely guide for the days and hours that we are living through right now. The series has broken all streaming records at pbs. Of course it has. And we have a preview of tonight's episode. In the words of Thomas Jefferson, voiced by our other dear friend Jeff Daniels, how those principles have a purposeful strength to persist against the threat of autocracy. Very real right now, even 250 years later. Watch.

C (30:48)

I will not believe our labors are lost. I shall not die without a hope that light and liberty are on steady advance. And even should the cloud of barbarism and despotism again obscure the science and liberty of Europe, this country remains to preserve and restore light and liberty to them. In short, the flames kindled on the 4th of July, 1776 have spread over too much of the globe to be extinguished by the feeble engines of despotism. Thomas Jefferson.

D (31:32)

Ken Burns is back with me at the table. I mean, I mean, how much of the roaring, record breaking success of this week has even sunk in for you?

E (31:42)

It hasn't. I mean, we're in this period of grief in a way, because we've worked on it for a decade and you don't want to leave it. People say, oh, how can you work on something for 10 years? You must be so bored. And you go, no, you don't want to leave the topic. The people that you've gotten to know, the places that you visited, the people behind the scenes, the co workers, the editors, the. All of the people that are involved. And so talking about it is one of the little air chambers that ameliorates just a little bit the grief. But I watch when everyone else is watching in the old fashioned broadcast way. And it's a way also of beginning to let go. It's no longer ours, it's yours, it's everyone else's. And I think that there is so much going on right now in which the revolution can help us. In a way, it's not a crutch, it's a way of reminding us with a very clear eye the complexities of our founding, how incredibly divided we were, that it was a civil war, as we've talked about, that it was a global war, that it was an extraordinary revolution with new ideas, those ideas that Jefferson's referring to. And why, for the first time in 12 hours, it's at the very end that we cut to photographs because we realized that these ideas have had power over the years. And the idea that he's worried about the light and liberties of Europe being extinguished, we also have cause to understand from what's going on and even what they understood, how fragile all of this is.

D (33:09)

Well, the other thing that comes through is that it's a choice to stay in the light.

E (33:13)

That's right.

D (33:14)

Talk about that in the context of this moment.

E (33:17)

Well, I think the problem is we do tend to sort of say in a narcissistic way, this is the worst time ever. And history's a great teacher. And it provides A little bit of optimism. But it requires, as the founders understood, an incredible discipline and rigorous. The pursuit of happiness is lifelong learning so that you could become more virtuous. You know, Jefferson says all experience has shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer while evils are sufferable. That's just a few phrases beyond the pursuit of happiness. And what he means is everybody's been under authoritarian rule and now we've got something different. And guess what? It's going to take a lot of hard work. It's going to take a lot of self discipline. You're not going to look at the other and blame them. You're going to, to look in the mirror and say, what do I need to do to become a better person, a better citizen? How do I contribute? And oh, by the way, there's no them, it's just us, both lowercase and the big us. And that's a challenge because what you see in the authoritarian playbook, which is played out everywhere over the centuries, is that you make an enemy. You want your people to be subjects, you want them to be uneducated, you want them to be distracted by conspiracies and superstitions. And what democracy requires is, is an incredible devotion to the now, to what's going on, to an honesty that is not, you know, that is in some ways timeless. And so these people, as I think we were talking about on Monday, they were talking to us, they knew that it wasn't just for themselves. So as Jefferson is sort of thinking at the end of his life about the hope that this will just continue to be a beacon, kind of an expanding universe that came from the big bang of the revolution, then it's our job to take it up and make sure that what he says, when people.

D (35:05)

Say the founders never imagined Donald Trump, I mean, what the series shows is they did, and they were banking on us right through our elected representative. I mean, is that fair?

E (35:16)

Oh, absolutely. They were trying to reverse engineer for an authoritarian the whole time. I mean, everybody's talking about it. Alexander Hamilton is worried that someone will reap the hobby horse, will mount the hobby horse of popularity and reap the whirlwind. Jefferson is in Paris doing diplomatic work, writes to Madison, his protege who's writing the code, and he says, you know what if someone should lose an election but pretend false votes and create chaos? So they're not going to be surprised. The conservative scholar Yuval Levin says, you know, of course somebody's going to want that. What I think they'd be so surprised is how the Legislative branch has abdicated the responsibility.

D (35:57)

Yeah, I never play all of the sound that you give us a sneak preview for because I always want to ask you a million questions. But I'm going to sneak in a break and then we'll come back with some previews that you gave us for tonight. Yeah, don't go anywhere.

A (36:09)

Those who live under arbitrary power do nevertheless approve of liberty and wish for it.

C (36:17)

Tis a common observation here that our.

A (36:20)

Cause is the cause of all mankind and that we are fighting for their.

C (36:25)

Liberty in defending our own.

D (36:35)

Makes me cry.

E (36:36)

No, it's. And he's talking. You know, the Declaration of Independence is a. Is a foreign policy document as much as it's an internal document. Just like the emancipation was trying to check France and England from coming in on the side of the south because of the naval blockade of southern cotton. That was putting the mills, particularly in Britain, out of business. And so it had a kind of foreign policy. So did this. And so he wanted to prove to the French government, government that we could come. We're going to come together, we're declaring independence. Now, if we could win a battle, that's going to happen later. This is going to be a big thing and we can enjoy your help. But Franklin also prints it in French and he spreads it out through the people. And this is an oppressive monarchy, unlike the British constitutional monarchy, which is less so. And so it's no wonder that the year that we begin our government formally, 1789, and George Washington becomes the first president here in the Capitol, New York, that the French Revolution happens. And it doesn't turn out that well. But it's because of the pent up ideas that people want. Everybody understands that as these planters are reading the Declaration or the works of Thomas Paine, the people who are serving them are hearing them. And as the historian in our film, Jane Kamensky, says, you know, liberty talk is leaky and everybody, women want it. Abigail Adams is hammering her husband. You know, all husbands would be tyrants if they could be. And Native Americans are hearing this and wanting something. Enslaved and free black Americans are hearing and wanting something. The poor are hearing something. Because this was originally a document intended for propertied white men. But by the end of the Revolution, we've got a democracy, at least for white men of all station. And that's a consequence of the Revolution, not an object of it. And so we begin to see in this idea of expanding that we are in the process of becoming. And somebody like Franklin, somebody like Adams, somebody like Jefferson, hears this, understands it and broadcasts it. So their message seems as pointed to us today. I mean, we hear it with fresh ears because of the urgency of now. But they're also designed for everybody and for all time.

D (38:51)

Pick up on something you said before the break, that they certainly imagine the people having to sort of thrive in the system. They conceive of this idea even in the face of a tyrant or someone with the authoritarian impulses. But they couldn't have imagined a Congress giving up its special magical powers. Why do you think that happens?

E (39:14)

I don't know in this circumstance. But this is Article 1 of the Constitution is not the executive. That's Article 2. But the biggest and most important is Article 1. It's basically saying the people's representatives ought to be the people that are the group that is most directly connected to.

D (39:32)

The people, most frequently reelected and reelected.

E (39:36)

And responded responsive, supposedly to the needs of those people will be the most important check on all of this. And Yuval Levin said another thing to us that was so interesting. He said the legislative acts in the future tense. You will do this, right? The executive acts in the present tense. I will execute what you've told me to do. And the Supreme Court looks back and says, looking at it in a kind of past tense, let's just put this in a better order, because the Constitution is suggesting this. And so I think, if you understand, it sounds simplistic, but it's a really good handle on what our system is about and how beautifully it's designed. It's still the shortest Constitution on earth, just four pieces of parchment amended with 10 things that the patriots who had fought and sacrificed and given up their lives wanted. Coming out of one of the greatest public discussions ever, public dialogues and discourses after the Revolution for the ratification of the Constitution, but also of the installation of the Bill of Rights. And of course, the first one is loaded. It's like, you know, the chauffeur coming out of Tiffany's at Christmas time in the New Yorker cover with all these gifts. You know, the establishment of no religion, right, freedom of the press and the right to redress your grievances and peaceful assembly. All of that has a kind of power to it. And that's just one. And there are 10 of them. And now we've added more. And so it just seems, you know, some of them have. Some of those amendments have been sort of housekeeping, mechanics, mechanical kind of updating the system. Some of them have. Only one of them has taken back rights. That would be Prohibition. And that's the only one that's been repealed, interestingly enough. But all the other rights that aren't just mechanical about the direct election of senators or number of terms have to do with expanding rights.

D (41:20)

When people flock to your work, I mean, it has to feel good, but does it make you feel differently about the country? Do you see them voracious?

E (41:29)

Oh, yes. Because what it is is we've only told complex, complex stories and we've only always told complex stories. And I think at a time when people think, oh, no, no, no, we can simplify it, it's really only about this tiny, sanitized Madison Avenue version. Nobody wants that. Every drama that's out there, you want the complexity and the undertow. Everybody can tolerate that in Yellowstone or succession or whatever, but somehow you can't take it with George Washington. He's much more interesting and nuanced to understand those nuances, the flaws, the strengths, the weaknesses, and the transcendent gestures that he makes on behalf of you and me that change the course of human events. He gave up his power willingly twice and understood that the greatest office was actually citizen.

D (42:18)

You always make me cry. Endeavor doesn't happen. I love it so much. I feel like there's more to unpack. So maybe as people get through it over the holiday, we, you know, we're.

E (42:29)

Plowing towards July 4th, where we have the risk of it sort of descending into fife and drum treacle and we can have a complicated conversation about the aspects of where we came from, what our origin story is that I think will arm us in the best way, not with weapons, but with what?

D (42:48)

Ideas.

E (42:48)

Ideas. And they're the most powerful thing on earth.

D (42:52)

We love having you so much and this is such an accomplishment. Let me be like the 7 millionth person to say congratulations.

E (42:59)

Thank you.

D (42:59)

Masterful. The final episode of the American Revolution airs tonight on pbs. All six episodes are available to stream right now on pbs. Did I say it's on pbs? When we come back, we were stunned by the headline yesterday that the Coast Guard would no longer consider swastikas as symbols of hate. There is an update to that story to tell you about. We'll have it for you after a quick break. There's an update to a story we brought you here yesterday just hours after the Washington Post reported that the US Coast Guard would not longer designate swastikas and nooses as symbols of hate. They have reversed course, issuing a late night memo that they say supersedes all previous guidance on the topic. From that new memo. Divisive or hate symbols and flags are prohibited These symbols and flags include, but are not limited to the a noose, a swastika, and any symbols or flags co opted or adopted by hate based groups or representations of supremacy, racial or religious intolerance, anti Semitism or any other improper proper bias. End quote. Amazing. And we'll say a welcome reversal in this case. We'll stay on top of that. One more break. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes for a week of shows and our new digs with our new names. We are so grateful. Home to the Rachel Maddow Show, Morning.

E (44:25)

Joe, the Briefing with Jen Psaki, and more Voices you know and trust.

D (44:30)

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