Deadline: White House “If you’re not frightened”

Host: Nicolle Wallace
Guests: David Graham (The Atlantic), Marc Elias (Democracy Docket), Michael McFaul (former U.S. Ambassador to Russia), Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling (Ret.), Gov. J.B. Pritzker (via clip)

Date: October 29, 2025

Overview

This episode centers on urgent threats to American democracy under Donald Trump's second term, particularly his ongoing efforts to undermine election integrity, the erosion of democratic guardrails, and his increasingly autocratic tendencies—especially the politicization and proposed use of the military. Drawing from David Graham's Atlantic article, Nicolle Wallace leads a frank conversation with legal and foreign policy experts about the state of the nation ahead of the 2026 midterms, what has already changed institutionally, and what may come next if the public and institutions don’t mobilize to defend democracy.

Key Discussion Points

Trump’s Longstanding Assault on Election Integrity

• Historical Context: Wallace revisits Trump’s pattern of lying about election fraud—going as far back as his first days in office in 2017, per a clip featuring then-Press Secretary Sean Spicer.

  • “Even then back in 2016, when Donald Trump prevailed in the 2016 election, he was so obsessed with his popular vote defeat that he spread unfounded...dangerous falsehoods that millions of people in our country had voted illegally, again, all because he was hurt that he didn’t win the popular vote.” (Nicolle Wallace, 01:14)

• Recent Developments: According to David Graham’s reporting, Trump’s deliberate undermining of the democratic process has only intensified, threatening to reach a breaking point by 2026. The biggest defense against this is public vigilance and voter turnout.

  • “The most important defense against losing our democracy is the same thing that makes it a democracy in the first place. The people.” (Read by Wallace, quoting Graham, 03:55)

Eroding Safeguards and Legal Challenges

• Democracy Under Siege: Marc Elias notes both the legal and cultural protections for fair elections have weakened, as Trump has grown bolder and Republican voter suppression more efficient.

  • “What’s happening over time is that the safeguards are also getting weaker and weaker. Right...And at the same time, the people who are standing up against it are, you know, becoming fewer and fewer.” (Marc Elias, 07:50)

• Role of the Courts: While numerous Trump challenges have failed in court, Elias points out that non-legal protections—the DOJ, administration officials—are now defunct or aligned with Trump, leaving private litigators to fill a daunting gap.

  • “...if you think about, you know, the amount of reliance, for example, we put on the fact that Bill Barr and the Department of Justice wouldn’t go along with the worst instincts of Donald Trump in 2020, well, that’s gone.” (Marc Elias, 08:56)
  • “We’re not on the verge of anything. We’re in the middle of it.” (Marc Elias, 13:56)

Infrastructure and Institutional Threats

• Security Cuts & Hostile Actors: David Graham details Trump administration cuts to the cybersecurity agency (CISA), staffing, and grants, which have destabilized election security, especially in under-resourced localities. Election deniers hold positions at DOJ and DHS.

  • “That creates a lot of problems. If you’re in a big county, you may have the capacity to deal...If you’re in a small county, you don’t have that. And CISA did all of these things for local authorities that we don’t see...But those capacities are gone now.” (Graham, 15:21)

• Chilling Effect on Professionals: The firing and criminal investigation of former CISA Director Chris Krebs signals to others that honesty about election integrity is punishable.

  • “Firing Krebs and then putting him under criminal investigation...is a signal to anyone else who might be tempted to say the elections are safe...that they are going to be subject to retaliation.” (Graham, 15:21)

Authoritarian Playbook: Military, DOJ, and Norm Erosion

• Normalization of Troops and Federal Presence: Both Graham and Elias argue that DOJ, ICE, or military “monitoring” of elections is being normalized, not to protect voting rights, but to lay groundwork for further control and to justify post-hoc claims of fraud.

  • “There’s nothing normal about this. This is just dangerous...they’re being sent in so that [Trump] can lie and lie and lie and then lie some more about what happened in the election.” (Elias, 20:37)
  • “If you put people in the streets of cities now, well ahead of elections...you get people used to it.” (Graham, 23:12)

• State-by-State Battles & Gerrymandering: Elias details simultaneous legal battles against Republican gerrymanders (TX, MO, NC) and Democratic moves to redistrict in their favor (CA, VA, NY), urging more creative brinksmanship from Democrats.

  • “People said it was impossible to do something in California, and Gavin Newsom found a way...I have been saying for months that Democrats need to, in every one of these states, look at what tools are available to them and...take it seriously.” (Elias, 24:11)

Autocratic Tactics and the Military

• Trump’s Claims of Unchecked Power: Wallace plays tapes of Trump bragging about his ability to deploy the military into cities, implying there'd be no legal recourse.

  • “I could send the Army, Navy...I can send anybody I wanted. But I haven’t done that because we’re...doing so well without it.” (Trump, 28:37)

• Comparisons to Putin’s Russia: Ambassador McFaul draws analogies to early Putin playbook: media repression, rule by law (not of law), co-opting oligarchs.

  • “Pulling people off of media shows that you don’t like...Using the rule by law instead of rule of law to go after people you don’t like...That’s right out of Putin’s playbook.” (McFaul, 29:49)
  • “I’m cautiously optimistic...we have way more checks and balances on executive power compared to Putin...” (McFaul, 31:14)

• Military’s Professionalism: Lt. Gen. Hertling expresses faith that U.S. officers would refuse illegal orders (e.g., to shoot protesters), referencing the oath to the Constitution—not the president.

  • “Soldiers would not do that. And that’s the difference...They know it’s illegal. It’s an illegal order. It’s shooting at your own citizens...And officers would disobey that.” (Hertling, 37:46)

Corporate Complicity and Democratic Resilience

• Business & Political Accommodation: McFaul warns of increasing collusion between Big Business and Trump’s GOP, motivated by power and profit, even when democracy is at risk.

  • “My biggest concern...is, you know, I was set to no King.” (McFaul, 39:17)
  • “I think it’s just money. It’s all a big power game between them...especially the AI race, who’s going to use the power of the government to enrich themselves.” (McFaul, 39:48)

• Signs of Resistance: Despite threats to institutions, both McFaul and Hertling point to independent civil society, the importance of protest, and the enduring ethos of American democracy as sources of hope.

  • “A lot of people are fighting back...The no Kings demonstrations...millions of people. That should give the president pause when he wants to overreach.” (McFaul, 40:32)

Historical Parallels and Warnings

• Governor J.B. Pritzker Calls for Vigilance: In a clip, Pritzker invokes the Niemöller poem “First They Came” to warn about scapegoating minority groups and the incrementalism of autocracy.
  • “You can substitute different names...It all applies today...you know, again, you can recognize all this. And yeah, it’s deeply concerning.” (Pritzker, 43:01)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the present danger:

• “If you are not frightened...you are not paying attention.” (David Graham, quoting Hannah Fried, 03:41)

On institutional collapse:

• “There are fewer guardrails and less strong guardrails.” (Marc Elias, 09:10)
• “We’re not on the verge of anything. We’re in the middle of it.” (Marc Elias, 13:56)

On autocratic normalization:

• “If you put people in the streets of cities now, well ahead of elections...you get people used to it.” (David Graham, 23:12)
• “There’s nothing normal about this. This is just dangerous.” (Marc Elias, 20:37)

On military loyalty:

• “Officers, by obeying the Constitution, will keep their soldiers, their troopers, straight... that’s what I believe we will still depend on.” (Lt. Gen. Hertling, 36:20)
• “Soldiers would not do that [obey an order to shoot protesters]...They know it’s illegal...officers would disobey that.” (Lt. Gen. Hertling, 37:46)

On corporate America:

• “I think it’s just money. It’s all a big power game between them...And I remember being at some dinner right after President Trump was reelected, who was going to go, who wasn’t going to go. And it was all a competition between them because they want to win the game, especially the AI race...” (Michael McFaul, 39:48)

On historical lessons:

• “First They Came...you can substitute different names...it all applies today....So I think we, you know, again, you can recognize all this.” (Gov. Pritzker, 43:01)

Important Segment Timestamps

• 01:14 — Wallace’s context on Trump’s election lies
• 03:41 — Hannah Fried’s quote via David Graham: “If you are not frightened, you’re not paying attention.”
• 07:50 — Elias explains erosion of election safeguards
• 13:56 — Elias: “We’re not on the verge...we’re in the middle of it.”
• 15:21 — Graham details critical election security cuts and firings
• 20:37 — Elias: DOJ “monitors” not normal, serve Trump’s ends
• 23:12 — Graham: normalizing militarized streets as part of a plan
• 28:37 — Trump on his supposed power to send military
• 29:49 — McFaul compares Trump’s playbook to Putin’s
• 31:14 — McFaul on U.S. checks and balances vs. Russia
• 36:20 — Hertling on military oath to the Constitution
• 37:46 — Hertling: “Soldiers would not do that” (on shooting protesters order)
• 39:48 — McFaul on Big Tech/big business motives: “It’s just money.”
• 43:01 — Gov. J.B. Pritzker: “First They Came” and historical warnings

Summary

This episode offers an unflinching look at how democracy is being actively undermined in the United States—through election disinformation, weakened institutions, politicized law enforcement, and normalization of military deployment in domestic politics. The conversation is a clarion call that the crisis is not looming; it is here, and only robust, engaged public resistance and institutional courage can stem further decline. The guests, with their respective legal, journalistic, and diplomatic experiences, echo the urgency: pay attention, imagine the unimaginable, and act—because democracy’s fate remains in the hands of the people.

For further details:

• David Graham’s Atlantic feature on threats to democracy
• Marc Elias and Democracy Docket’s legal advocacy
• Michael McFaul’s “Autocrats Versus Democrats”
• Gov. Pritzker’s full conversation on “The Best People” podcast