“I'm not going anywhere. I want her back”

Summary

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Deadline: White House – “I'm not going anywhere. I want her back”

Date: September 2, 2025
Host: Nicolle Wallace
Featured Guests: Vicki Ward, Molly Jong-Fast, Melissa Murray, Jacob Soboroff

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on two explosive national stories: the bipartisan movement in Congress to compel the release of the Jeffrey Epstein files and the human cost of the Trump administration’s immigration enforcement, highlighted by the deportation of Los Angeles honor-roll student Nori Sante Ramos. Nicolle Wallace brings her political acumen and deep understanding of Washington dysfunction to analyze why these two stories—one about accountability for the powerful and the other about the vulnerable—are cutting through partisan gridlock and galvanizing public outrage.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Epstein Files: Bipartisan Action for Transparency

Growing Outrage and Congressional Momentum

• The episode opens with reporting on a rare bipartisan effort—led by Republican Rep. Thomas Massie and Democrat Rep. Ro Khanna—to force a vote compelling the release of all Department of Justice files related to Jeffrey Epstein (04:30–07:00). Survivors are coming forward to speak publicly, some for the first time, in a press conference with Massie and Khanna.
  • Nicolle Wallace: “It is exceedingly rare and therefore exceedingly newsworthy when bipartisanship breaks out… and breaks out around the Jeffrey Epstein controversy, it is like observing a political endangered species.” (04:20)
• The panel points out the uniqueness of bipartisanship in a Congress otherwise paralyzed by hyper-partisanship—especially in the Trump era—and underscores the deep public revulsion that unites both sides.
  • Melissa Murray: “This is the only issue in American life that has garnered bipartisan support at a time when there are lots of issues that should be concerning all of the time.” (12:53)

The Victims and Failures of Justice

• Guests emphasize the resilience of victims and the entrenched power structures that enabled Epstein’s crimes:
  • Molly Jong-Fast: “This really does break through because this guy may be the largest sex trafficker in history… and these crimes are sort of incomprehensible.” (06:49)
  • Vicki Ward: “It’s time that they were put back in. Victims have been completely overlooked and taken out of the story.” (11:18)
• The discussion scrutinizes the “sweetheart deal” negotiated for Epstein by Alex Acosta (later Trump’s Secretary of Labor), the self-serving public statements of Ghislaine Maxwell, and the stubborn resistance of institutions to real transparency.
  • Vicki Ward: “She [Ghislaine Maxwell] is convicted of perjury and she's doing that interview for completely self-serving reasons. She wants her conviction overturned.” (10:21)
  • Melissa Murray: “One of the reasons why Jeffrey Epstein got to go home is that he made a sweetheart deal… with Alex Acosta.” (12:53)

Trump, the DOJ, and the "Unsolvable"

• The panel questions why Donald Trump’s DOJ is so resistant to releasing the files, despite public knowledge of Trump’s name appearing frequently in connection to Epstein.
  • Nicolle Wallace: “It has been made public that a thousand FBI agents went through all the files and found Trump’s name everywhere… what is he afraid of?” (16:02)
  • Molly Jong-Fast: “These people who were involved in Jeffrey Epstein’s abuses… were the most powerful in America, in the world… if you are fighting for the little guy and then you are in these files, two things cannot be true.” (16:29)

Broader Implications

• The story taps into broader American anxieties about entrenched power and the corruption of the justice system.
  • Melissa Murray: “The very rich, the very wealthy, the very powerful always get to get away with it. And I think that’s the germ of what has really gotten under people’s skin about this.” (23:59)

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2. The Human Toll of Trump’s Deportation Blitz

Nori Sante Ramos: Deportation of an Honor Student

• Nicolle Wallace introduces the story of Nori Sante Ramos, a 17-year-old Los Angeles star athlete and honor student, suddenly deported—with her mother—to Guatemala after a routine ICE check-in (27:34–32:57).
  • Nori (via Jacob Soboroff): “It's been tough... School just started and me not being there. It just hurts me a lot… I tell my mom, I miss that I cannot be there.” (29:07–29:35)
• Nori, who barely speaks Spanish and fears for her safety, describes living in near-total isolation and anxiety since her deportation.

Systemic Tragedy: Following the Law but Losing Everything

• Soboroff details the pattern of targeting law-abiding, non-criminal immigrants who have built lives in the U.S., despite public opposition to these policies.
  • Jacob Soboroff: “That's who Donald Trump is rounding up… 60% of the people who were picked up and deported in LA… had no criminal convictions, but no pending charges either.” (30:37–32:49)

Outpouring of Community Support and Limited Remedies

• Nori’s teacher, Darcy White, is working to keep her enrolled and on track to graduate, even from Guatemala:
  • Darcy White (via Soboroff): “She’s still very sad, but we just found out… she’s going to be able to re-enroll… and will be allowed to enroll in the Virtual Academy.” (39:32)
  • Darcy White: “I'm not going anywhere. I want her back. I really want her back.” (40:34)
• Listeners are encouraged to seek ways to support affected students like Nori, and the episode displays (on screen) a QR code to read her story and find help.

Legal and Public Opinion Context

• The legal expert on the panel notes that non-citizens do have rights and that due process must still be respected, warning that violating these rights endangers everyone.
  • Melissa Murray: “It is not the case that non-citizens have no rights. They may have different rights… but they are not completely deprived of rights.” (35:03)
• The panel cites national polls: Over 80% of Americans oppose deporting people with jobs or who are married to U.S. citizens; child separation remains deeply unpopular.
  • Nicolle Wallace: “…upwards of 80% of Americans oppose deporting people with jobs… child separation was so unpopular, I think it’s literally the only thing Trump put in place and then reversed on.” (37:01)

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Notable Quotes & Key Timestamps

• “It is exceedingly rare and therefore exceedingly newsworthy when bipartisanship breaks out… and breaks out around the Jeffrey Epstein controversy, it is like observing a political endangered species.” – Nicolle Wallace (04:20)
• “He’s simply doing his job… Thomas Massie is not extraordinary. The rest of them are extraordinarily pathetic.” – Nicolle Wallace (08:30)
• “She is convicted of perjury and she’s doing that interview for completely self-serving reasons. She wants her conviction overturned.” – Vicki Ward (10:21)
• “This is the only issue in American life that has garnered bipartisan support at a time when there are lots of issues that should be concerning all of the time.” – Melissa Murray (12:53)
• “I'm not going anywhere. I want her back. I really want her back.” – Darcy White (Nori’s teacher) via Jacob Soboroff (40:34)
• “The very rich, the very wealthy, the very powerful always get to get away with it. And I think that's the germ of what has really gotten under people’s skin about this.” – Melissa Murray (23:59)
• “That’s who Donald Trump is rounding up… that’s who he will round up in Chicago. I watched the first area broadcast today and that’s what's really going on… Non criminals, track stars, honor students.” – Jacob Soboroff (30:37–32:49)

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Segment Highlights (with Timestamps)

• [04:30] – Nicolle Wallace sets up the breaking bipartisan initiative on Epstein files
• [06:49] – Molly Jong-Fast on the resonance of the Epstein story and the base’s response
• [08:30] – Wallace and Jong-Fast debate political courage and basic duty
• [10:21] – Vicki Ward discusses the pain of the victims and Maxwell’s self-serving interview
• [12:53] – Melissa Murray explains why bipartisan outrage is so strong around Epstein
• [16:02] – Wallace and Jong-Fast probe Trump’s fear of the files
• [23:59] – Melissa Murray: The public’s anger is not just about the victims, but about “the victimization and weaponization of an entire system”
• [27:34] – Transition to Nori’s story: The human cost of immigration policy
• [29:07–29:35] – Nori’s testimonial: heartbreak over missing her senior year, fear in a foreign land
• [30:37–32:49] – Soboroff contextualizes the national scale of deporting law-abiding students like Nori
• [39:32–40:34] – Darcy White, Nori’s teacher: persistence in keeping up hope for her student’s return

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Tone and Language

• The tone is urgent, empathetic, and engaged, with Wallace and panelists oscillating between indignation at systemic abuses and hope in grassroots and bipartisan efforts.
• Guests speak directly and passionately about victims and the need for accountability, while also dissecting the cynical calculations behind political and bureaucratic resistance to transparency or reform.

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Conclusion

This episode of Deadline: White House adeptly blends institutional analysis with human storytelling, revealing how two seemingly separate issues—elite impunity and immigrant vulnerability—are both driving rare bipartisan action and uniting a country otherwise at odds. Through pointed commentary and emotional real-world stories, Wallace and her panel illustrate the high stakes of the current political moment and hint at avenues of hope and activism, urging viewers to remain vigilant, informed, and engaged.

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Transcript

[Nicole Wallace]

Saturday, October 11th from New York City, it's MSNBC Live 25. Join your favorite MSNBC hosts Rachel Maddow, Joe Scarborough, Mika Brzezinski, Nicole Wallace, Ari Melber, Alicia Menendez, Simone Sanders Townsend, Michael Steele, Chris Haynes, jen Psaki, Lawrence O', Donnell, Stephanie Ruhl and more. Visit msnbc.comlive25 to buy your tickets today. Start your day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter, sharp insights from voices you trust, standout moments from your favorite shows, and fresh perspectives from experts shaping the news. Sign up [e-mail] I will say, and I speak on behalf of all of.

[Molly Zhang]

Us, that the courage that these women show today has motivated us so much.

[Nicole Wallace]

More to seek justice, accountability and transparency. And we do not care how powerful, how connected or what political party those.

That have victimized and caused horrific pain.

And sexual abuse of these women are. We will seek justice.

Hi again, everyone. It's now five o'clock in New York. That happened a few minutes ago on Capitol Hill. Members of the House Oversight Committee just wrapped up a meeting with a number of victims of Jeffrey Epstein on that topic. And some Republicans nearly set land speed records in a desperate last minute sprint out of Washington five weeks ago. Did they think was going to happen when they eventually had to come back? The controversy they so sorely sought to avoid would just poof, go away? Well, today, summer vacation's over on Capitol Hill and the radioactive political time bomb of where are the Jeffrey Epstein files? Hasn't dissipated at all. A short time ago, Republican Congressman Thomas Massie formally filed what is called a discharge petition. Now that is essentially a procedural tool that would bypass leadership and force a vote on a measure that officially compel the Trump Justice Department to unseal all Epstein related files in its possession. Republican Thomas Massie said this move will allow him to begin collecting the 218 signatures necessary to force a vote on binding legislation to release the Epstein files, a task he suggested could be relatively easy given a degree of bipartisan support. It's worth pressing pause on just uttering that sentence these days because consider how rare and how quaint and old fashioned the mere idea of anything bipartisan has become just since Trump came back to office. Remember in January, after Donald Trump single handedly torpedoed a bipartisan immigration bill for the purposes of campaigning on chaos at the border, Republicans who had worked on it chose to go it alone, outright, refusing to to work with Democrats on immigration legislation. In April, Republicans in the Senate rejected pleas from their counterparts and some in their own party to preserve their own prerogatives their own power by blocking Donald Trump's global tariffs. Well, late last week, even the month left to avoid a government shutdown, Donald Trump put a torch to bipartisanship unilaterally and perhaps illegally canceling billions of dollars in foreign aid by using a so called pocket rescission. It fulfilled the wish of White House budget director Russ Boat, who suggested the process of funding the government ought to be, quote, less bipartisan in order to accommodate a number of conservative priorities. All this is a long way of saying absolutely nothing is bipartisan anymore. By design. It is exceedingly rare and therefore exceedingly newsworthy. When bipartisanship breaks out and breaks out around the Jeffrey Epstein controversy, it is like observing a political endangered species. Tomorrow, Republican Thomas Massie, along with his colleague, Democrat Congressman Ro Khanna, will hold a major press conference, something that's never happened because it includes 10 survivors of Jeffrey Epstein's evil, some of them speaking for the very first time publicly. These developments, along with perhaps to a lesser extent, the House Oversight Committee's ongoing investigation into the Epstein material, make one reality abundantly clear. On Earth 1 and Earth 2, Donald Trump can run. He can hide, he can militarize the cities. He can try to indict the sandwich guy. But the train on the Epstein story has left the station. Democrats and Republicans are on board and they want answers. This is where we start the hour with some of our favorite experts, reporters and friends all at the table. Investigative journalist Vicki Vicki profiled Jeffrey Epstein for vanity fair in 2003. She's been reporting on this story ever since, including in the documentary series and podcast Chasing Ghislaine, which tracked Ghislaine Maxwell's role as Epstein's partner and accomplice. Also joining us, the host of the Fast Politics podcast, Vanity Fair special correspondent MSNBC political analyst Molly Zhang Fast and NYU law professor MSNBC legal analyst Melissa Murray is here. Let me start with you on what are there any legal limits to what Congress can subpoena and look at?

[Melissa Murray]

Well, Congress has broad authority with its subpoena power. It can ask for a lot of things. Again, the grand jury materials, those seem to be pretty much sacrosanct. And courts have made that very clear for a lot of different reasons. You want to keep grand jury material sequestered from public view, but the stuff that has been amassed in the course of the DOJ's investigation of Jeffrey Epstein, the stuff that Pam Bondi says that she has and she would be willing to release, that all seems to be fair game. And again, I think the subpoena power being used in this position where the DOJ said, we have it and we can release it anytime. Well, then just do this and Congress can call on the DOJ to do that.

[Nicole Wallace]

I am trying to give up the practice of asking what happened to the Republicans? You know, why would they give up all their prerogatives and authorities? Why would they vote for people that are manifestly unfit to lead things like the military and the FBI that they used to care about. About. So I'm not gonna do that. But why do you think they feel so emboldened on this story?

[Molly Zhang]

So this is like the big question, and I think it's worth taking. You know, this is something that Trump's base actually cares about. And I interviewed Graham Platner, who's running for Senate in Maine. He's, you know, the Democrat. He's running in the primary. And he was. We were talking about how there's so, you know, there's so many Trump supporters that he's friends with, and some of them are upset and, you know, they're having a little of remorse, and it's about the tariffs. And he said, and you're gonna think this is silly, but a lot of them are upset about Epstein. And so I do think this matters because it really does live with the base as opposed to other problems Trump's had that have lived with people like us. This really does break through because this guy may be the largest sex trafficker in history. I mean, we think there is numbers, more than 200 victims. I mean, this guy did this for a long time with children, and there are just a number of victims. And these crimes are sort of incomprehensible. The other thing I want to say is that Thomas Massie has, you know, as someone, I don't necessarily agree with a lot of his ideas, but he really has been extremely brave. We've seen so many Republicans say, I disagree, and then go along anyway. And here's Thomas Massie, and on the weekend show, we actually interviewed a Vermont congresswoman, Becca Balint, and she talked about how she. And this is a person who is very different views than Thomas Massie. And she was just so blown away by the fact that he's actually doing this for these victims. And so there are little pockets of sanity in this, you know, little pockets of earth one, on earth two.

[Nicole Wallace]

Let me just, as the ex Republican, push back with all the, like, burning ire that I have. He's simply doing his job. I mean, the other way of looking at this is that Thomas Massie is Not extraordinary. The rest of them are extraordinarily pathetic.

[Molly Zhang]

Yeah, no 100%. And I think we saw this in this, you know, the Senate, John Cassidy who voted for RFK Jr. Knowing, you know full well that was gonna be a disaster. I mean, we have, there are just endless, endless cases of Republicans just clowning themselves for Trump.

[Nicole Wallace]

Oh, I love that word. Okay. I like to, I'm glad you brought it back to the victims because I think this story as a conspiracy theory is to me endlessly riveting. This story as a political unicorn, it could think about and talk about for days, but this is actually a story about the victims of a broken at best criminal justice system and a corruptible law enforcement process that let Jeffrey Epstein go home after he was actually caught, that somehow since Trump was reelected, let Ghislaine Maxwell go somewhere more comfy. That's so liberal in terms of prisons that they're allowed, they have the privilege of training service dogs. Something she's not allowed to do because she's such a heinous child sex predator and she's at this prison. But because of the two of them and what they did to not women, but girls, we have to come back to the victims themselves. And just take me through if you know anything about the stories of the victims we're expected to hear from this week and if you know anything about how they came to this point where so many years later they're still willing to share their trauma with the public in search of justice.

[Vicki Ward]

So I'm sure tomorrow, Nicole, that you're going to hear some outrage about the interview that was conducted by Tob Blanche with Ghislaine Maxwell, because that had to be deeply, I mean, people forget she was part of the abuse herself. And the fact, as you say, she gave that very self serving interview where she said things like I didn't see anybody upset after they left a massage, which Jeffrey Epstein, I don't remember seeing anyone underage, I mean, went on and on and he didn't interrupt her, as you and I talked about last week. I mean, sure, even Brad Edwards, who's a lawyer who's represented more than 200 of the victims and is going to be there, I think tomorrow has said, sure, Ghislaine Maxwell has undoubtedly got some answers to the questions we all have to the conspiracy theories. But she's convicted of perjury and she's doing that interview for completely self serving reasons. You know, she wants her conviction overturned. And so you're going to hear, I think, justifiable outrage about that and a reminder, yes, we want answers to how soft power works in this country. To your point, the corruption of the system of justice that let Jeffrey Epstein be evaded, and that does have to do with conspiracy theories, with men and the money, but it's at the center of it as the victims. And they have been completely overlooked and taken out of the story. And it's time that they were put back in.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, it's tricky because I don't want to give the conspiracy hungering part of the MAGA coalition credit, but there is a kernel of what you just articulated that has at least seemingly animated some of their fervor on this story. And there are some things that are unknowable. This isn't one of them. Like they investigated the alleged abuses to the point where Jeffrey Epstein pleaded guilty in Florida and Ghislaine Maxwell was convicted. I mean, what is the barrier to transparency?

[Melissa Murray]

That's the million dollar question. I think that's what's united people on both sides of the aisle. As you said, this is the only issue in American life that has garnered bipartisan support at a time when there are lots of issues that should be concerning all of the time. But this is the thing that has united people. Part of it is this idea of the very wealthy getting away with it somehow. But I also think there is something about the ways in which the levers of government have worked to facilitate this. One of the reasons why Jeffrey Epstein got to go home is that he made a sweetheart deal in the Southern District of Florida with Alex Acosta, who was then the US Attorney there, and then went on to be Donald Trump's Secretary of Labor in the first Trump administration. And he left in a cloud of questions about what happened in the handling of the Epstein case. And he is someone who's going to appear before the Oversight Committee for an, for an interview. And he wasn't initially included in that initial list of individuals. There were a lot of Democrats, Robert Mueller, but not some of the people who I think were right there. And I think that's one of the things that has really animated the outrage about this. Like, it seems a little ham handed. It seems like people know what they're doing and they're purposely trying to evade the levers and people want answers.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, what is the. Why was Todd Blanche, even the person that went there? What does he have to do with any of this?

[Vicki Ward]

Nothing. And in fact, Brad Edwards, I think, has pointed this out on this network, that the only person who should interview Ghislaine Maxwell is somebody who is completely familiar with the discovery in her case and who sat through her trial. In an ideal world, that person should have been Maureen Comey, but she was recently fired by.

[Nicole Wallace]

And are we supposed to on earth one believe that it's a coincidence that Alex Acosta ended up in Trump's Cabinet and a coincidence of timing that Maureen Comey no longer works for Trump? Those just. Well, these are all odd coincidences that all circle back to Jeffrey Epstein.

[Vicki Ward]

These are all the questions, right, that we want answered. And you know, Ron Wyden, I mean, we're talking today about Ro Khanna and Thomas Massie, rightly so. But there is one person in Congress who has been hot on the abuse of soft power by Jeffrey Epstein for a long time, and that is Senator Ron Wyden, who has squarely pointed fingers at the Justice Department, having now seen what they have unveiled and said, well, wait a minute. Why were you so negligent? Why didn't you bring in the bankers? Why haven't you brought in Leon Black, the man who Jeffrey Epstein was paid $170 million for, quote, unquote, tax advice? Why has the IRS not looked more closely at that? What is the connection with all these Russian banks that Jeffrey Epstein was doing all these transactions? If you know, in short, where is the Justice Department on this? And is it because they haven't done their job that they don't want us to see into those files?

[Nicole Wallace]

Here's the other thing I don't understand about Trump's handling of this. It has been made public that a thousand FBI agents went through all the files and found Trump's name everywhere. And multiple news organizations reported that they told Trump that we already know he's in it. Right? He's a convicted felon. He bragged about grabbing women between the legs. He ran on his mugshot and his sexual predatory conduct as locker room talk. Why not? Just what is he afraid of?

[Molly Zhang]

Well, I think it goes to this idea, which is Donald Trump ran on this thing. He would say, the system is rigged. It's rigged against you, and I'm gonna help you. But here's the thing. These people who were involved in Jeffrey Epstein's abuses and crimes were the most powerful people in America, in the world, right? Prince Andrew. Right. I mean, these people are so. They are the people rigging the system. So if you are fighting for the little guy and then you are in these files, two things cannot be true.

[Nicole Wallace]

Trump doesn't care about those people. Why would he protect those people?

[Molly Zhang]

I don't think Trump cares about protecting anyone. But I think that the base is like, he is fighting for us. But wait, he is one of them. And the whole thing he did so that he was able to do so effectively was he was able to convince people that even though he was famous and wealthy, ish, sort of. That he was one of them. And here's a really prime example of not being one of them.

[Nicole Wallace]

But no one. I mean, his name showing up in the files seems to be something he's already talked about in interviews with Fox News where he says, we have to go through them and make sure that no one who's innocent gets lumped in. I feel like he's already primed his base to say, even if I'm in there, and no one has ever charged him with a crime related to Jeffrey Epstein. So why take on all this political water? Why create this one thing that bipartisan members pursue?

[Molly Zhang]

And I think it's a real question of why they've been so bad at handling this. I mean, it goes back to having the DOJ be like, Pam Bondi, I'm gonna release these files. They're sitting on my desk. And then being like, just kidding. She did remember she had all these MAGA influencers in.

[Nicole Wallace]

She gave them binders, files.

[Molly Zhang]

Right. Stage one. They were supposed to be other phases. So the question I have is why set all that up if, you know, your boss doesn't really want this to be the topic?

[Nicole Wallace]

I need you guys to stick around. There's much more with our panel. As members of Congress, as we've been saying on both sides of the aisle somehow demand answers in the Jeffrey Epstein scandal and how far Donald Trump will go to prevent any of these answers from coming out ever later in the broadcast. Powerful new reporting from our dear friend Jacob Soboroff, who has traveled to Guatemala to interview an honor roll student from Los Angeles who is deported by Donald Trump's administration just before her senior year of high school. Jacob will join us right here at the table with her story, the fight to bring her back to this country and why she says she no longer feels safe here. A little later in the hour, Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

Saturday, October 11th, from New York City, it's MSNBC Live 25. Join your favorite MSNBC hosts, Rachel Maddow, Joe Scarborough, Mika Bruszinski, Nicole Wallace, Ari Melber, Alicia Menendez, Simone Sanders Townsend, Michael Steele, Chris Hayes, jen Psaki, Lawrence O', Donnell, Stephanie Rule, and more. Visit visit msnbc.comlive25 to buy your tickets today. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access, ad free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace, why is this Happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.

Just a few minutes ago, the Democrats on the House Oversight Committee talked after their meeting today with the Jeffrey Epstein accusers. Here's Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett on that.

[Melissa Murray]

We are standing before you. We're having this conversation because of the oversight Democratic leadership.

[Nicole Wallace]

And so I want to reiterate that.

[Melissa Murray]

It'S the Democratic leadership on oversight that has truly been able to move this forward.

[Nicole Wallace]

I'm sure many of you don't recall.

[Melissa Murray]

But we were sent home early to try to avoid being able to take a vote on something like getting these files. We are about doing real transparency.

[Molly Zhang]

We don't care who's in the files. We are going after you.

[Melissa Murray]

So let me tell you, I want some action items to come out of.

[Nicole Wallace]

This because for once we, we somewhat.

[Melissa Murray]

Look like we're bipartisan in the Oversight Committee. Number one, we need answers.

[Nicole Wallace]

We're back with Vicki, Molly and Melissa. I mean, do you know who else is bipartisan? Is the American people just 19% of Americans approve of Trump's handling of the Epstein files. Close to 70% disapprove. I mean, is it weird to you, having been on this story for so long, that the American public has such consensus around this? No. Why? Not really?

[Vicki Ward]

No. Because it, because there are just so many questions that do have to do with how power works in the shadows, obviously culminating in the strange way Jeffrey Epstein died.

[Melissa Murray]

Right.

[Vicki Ward]

But I mean, a man who has, as Molly talked about, a Rolodex of heads of countries and access to the kind of money without any good reason for it, and then puts all of those resources to use by abusing children. I mean, you know, in some ways I think it says a good thing about America that people want transparency about Jeffrey Epstein. They should.

[Nicole Wallace]

That's such an interesting place to land. Maybe my hardened democracy worried heart has a hard time processing, but I'd like to believe that's true. I'd like to believe that children who are victims of sex crimes still garner bipartisan support. But the evidence and the things we see with our open eyes suggests that's not always true. In the rounding. I mean, there's a plane full of Guatemalan children sitting in tarmac in an American city right now. I wonder if it's more the COVID up is always worse than the crime.

[Melissa Murray]

I think that's certainly. I mean, you were talking about the idea that it is the fact that this has happened to children that has really garnered the American attention. We just saw children in Minnesota get gunned down at a mass. And it has not bestirred Congress to get off the couch and really think about what we might do to limit the array of really dangerous weapons that are in the hands of people who don't need to have them. And we've seen this for years. Like if, if they didn't do anything after Sandy Hook, they weren't going to care about children going forward. But this has garnered their attention. And I think it's not about the victims per se, but about the victimization and weaponization of an entire system. The government, the Justice Department and the fact that you were right all along. The very rich, the very wealthy, the very powerful always get to get away with it. And I think that's the germ of what has really gotten under people's skin about this.

[Nicole Wallace]

When you listen to anyone who's spent time with the victims, and I've interviewed one on this show, and you've obviously been covering the story for a long time, it's such an indictment of the system. Right. That everyone is agitated by that bipartisan members are finally doing something about, but also of sort of ignoring all the signs. I mean, I think that's the other maybe opportunity for Democrats to say, I see you, I'm going to center this around the victims who have had no justice. I wonder though, whether we're putting our faith in the wrong hands. We think that in the end, because one Republican and all the Democrats want something, the Trump administration is gonna give it to them.

[Molly Zhang]

Well, that's a real question. But I would love to go back to what Jasmine Crockett said when she was talking before, because you'll realize like there is a new head of oversight, right? It's Robert Garcia. He is part of this younger generation that is much more aggressive that has learned the lessons of Trumpism. And you see what she said there. She said this is because of the oversight leadership and not, she didn't say this is because of Democratic leadership. This is because of a very specific leader of that committee, Robert Garcia. And I think that's important because it shows that Democrats, there are some Democrats who have started to understand exactly what their role here is and how to push back effectively and how this is the kind of stuff their voters want. And I think that's really important to see. And I think Jasmine Crocker is a lawyer, very smart, and she doesn't say things like that so specifically unless she really wants that to be, you know.

[Vicki Ward]

Noted and not to sound Pollyanna ish.

[Nicole Wallace]

No, I welcome it. I welcome it.

[Vicki Ward]

But remember, Nicole, back in 2019, a key person who was instrumental in pushing for the arrest of Jeffrey Epstein was a Republican. It was Ben Sasse, Senator Ben Sasse of Nebraska, who paid attention to Julie Brown's excellent reporting in the Miami Herald. And if it hadn't been for him, I'm not sure that there would have been this push to finally almost bring him to justice.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, it's an important point that it only takes one. Bipartisanship doesn't mean all the Democrats and all the Republicans. It means in this case, all the Democrats and at least one Republican. So I'll take that. I'll take that. Thank you for being part of our coverage. We'll need you after we see what happens tomorrow. You two stick around with me. When we come back, our friend Jacob Sobroff will join the table with an unbelievably powerful news story about a high school student from Los Angeles on the honor roll, now in grave danger after being deported by the Trump administration to Guatemala. The fight to bring her back so she could finish her senior year of high school is our next story.

Saturday, October 11th. From New York City, it's MSNBC Live 25. Join your favorite MSNBC hosts, Rachel Maddow, Joe Scarborough, Mika Brzezinski, Nicole Wallace, Ari Melber, Alicia Menendez, Simone Sanders Townsend, Michael Steele, Chris Haynes, jen Psaki, Lawrence O', Donnell, Stephanie Rule and more. Visit msnbc.comlive25 to buy your tickets today.

Remember her name, 17 year old Norrie Sante Ramos. She's an honor roll student. She's a star athlete. She should be starting her senior year of high school in Los Angeles this week, today, right now. But instead, Nori is living in fear in Guatemala with her mom, Estela, a place she'd only lived as a very small child and hardly recognizes. The two fled Guatemala nearly a decade ago out of fear of being targeted by gang violence. After showing up for a routine ice check in earlier this summer, something they'd done a lot of times, Nori and Estella were suddenly detained and then deported days later, throwing the future of the life they have built together in Los Angeles into question. According to NBC's reporting, they arrived in Guatemala, quote, wearing the same clothes they had put on for their immigration appointment in America. From that moment forward, those were the only belongings they had. With no money and no working phones, they begged Guatemalan officials for one call. When Estella finally reached her eldest daughter in Los Angeles, panic set in. She hadn't heard from her mother and sister in four days and had no idea they'd been deported. Now, two months after her deportation, MSNBC's Jacob Soborough had the chance to visit Nori in Guatemala for an exclusive interview. They talk about the life she's missing in Los Angeles and the fear that she and her mom live in now.

[Jacob Soboroff]

What have the last two months been like?

[Nicole Wallace]

It's been tough, just realizing, like, school just started and me not being there. It just hurts me a lot. It's like my senior year, and I really miss everything. My school, my first year of cross country.

[Jacob Soboroff]

You said even prom. You were thinking about.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, I was thinking about Palm. A lot of things come in my head, and I keep telling my mom, like, I miss that I cannot be there.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Do you have any friends here? No, nobody. Do you know the city?

[Nicole Wallace]

I don't know. I told my mom I'm gonna be lost here because I don't know nobody.

[Jacob Soboroff]

You feel lost. In the moments when you feel lost, where are you finding your hope, their hope that you have God. You're praying a lot.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yes. I pray every single day to be able to have an opportunity to go back. And my mom is hyping me up and telling me that everything's gonna be fine, but it's really hard to be used to a place that you didn't grow up. Joining us at the table, MSNBC senior national and political correspondent Jacob Soboroff. Molly, Melissa is still here.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Oh, man. So thank you, first of all, for sending us. We wouldn't have gone without you. And I guess the first thing I want to say about Nori is Nori is one of one, but there are so many Noris since the beginning of this Trump administration. And were it not for this Trump administration, Nori would be today probably in track practice or running cross country in LA at the Miguel Contreras Learning Complex, where I went and I visited her teacher, and around the corner, I visited her cousin, and I went to where her house is, where they had ceviche the night before they went to the immigration hearing, were picked up and kicked out of the country. She'd be in civics class learning, I swear to you, about due process. Darcy White, her teacher told me. And now she finds herself in Quitsaltenango, which is the second biggest city in Guatemala, but three and a half hours from Guatemala City. It's a place that she has literally no idea. She doesn't speak Spanish. She speaks a little kiche, which is the Mayan dialect that her mother spoke when she brought her to the United States a decade ago. And she hasn't left that tiny little apartment that we were in in two months because she's scared of what will happen if they walk out into the streets. That's who Donald Trump is rounding up in these efforts, like he promised in Chicago. That's who he will round up in Chicago. I watched the first area broadcast today and that's what's really going on. 60% of the people who were picked up and deported in LA in June and July, from the beginning of that ramped up immigration enforcement run by Gregory Bevino, who's going to now be doing Chicago, had no. Not only did they not have criminal convictions, but no pending charges either. That's double the amount of people in the previous 16 months in LA who were picked up. Non criminals, track stars, honor students Noris and Kay Guerrero. And I went down there, the senior producer for msnbc, because I think it's important for us not just to show the sending end, but the receiving end of all of this also. And so it's likely that all around the world you're going to have Noris that are kicked out of the United States by the Trump administration, for what reason, I don't know the answer.

[Nicole Wallace]

And she and Iran were asylum seekers, going to regular appointments, checking in on a regular basis.

[Jacob Soboroff]

And that's the thing that is, I think, sickening to a lot of people. When I saw it at 26 Federal Plaza here in New York, the idea that people are showing up in order to try to do the right thing and then are literally being sent to a place where they fear that they could be killed. It just doesn't compute. And actually, I would love to play you a little more what Nori said about that, because that to me is sort of the most egregious thing about all of this, is that they're sitting inside this tiny little apartment, literally not knowing what's happening outside the door. So here's what she told me about whether or not she feels safe in Guatemala. Part of the reason that you guys left when you were little was that your mom didn't feel safe here.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yes.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Now that you're back, you still worried about your own Safety?

[Nicole Wallace]

Yes. I'm worried about what might happen. We're not safe at all here. There's people, like, looking for my mom. So we're just scared. Like, we find them in the streets.

[Jacob Soboroff]

So any day you're worried that something might happen to you just outside these doors?

[Nicole Wallace]

Yes, every day I'm just worried, especially my mom. They almost killed her. So I'm really, really scared. And for my safety, too.

[Jacob Soboroff]

I'm a runner like she is, and I don't know if you guys are, but I thought, you know, it must make her insane amongst everything else to sit inside this tiny little apartment and not go out and be able to even run around the neighborhood. And I said, do you think you could do that? I could barely walk down to the end of the block. I'm so scared every time I go outside of the door. And I think another reason that I want to do this is that if there's a way for her to come back, somebody out there might know it. There might be an immigration attorney or a lawmaker who sees this and says, just like her teacher said to me, her civics teacher at Miguel Contreras, her due process, which is what I was going to teach her about this year, is what's being violated. And so when I teach this class, you probably know better than anybody, there's got to be a way for her to find justice in all of this.

[Melissa Murray]

It's a terrific point. Whenever we talk about the immigration stories and the rounding up, people always flood my DMs, like, they're not citizens. They don't have rights. That's not true. It is not the case that non citizens have no rights. They may have different rights. The nature of their rights may be different from that of U.S. citizens, but they are not completely deprived of, of rights. And the question about this is not whether the executive has the authority to deport people or whether Congress has the authority to deport people. They surely do. The question is whether or not they are following the right protocols to do this, because these people, all of us, have rights. And if they deny and deprive those rights for that group, they can very easily do it for everyone else. Like that is what's on the line with this.

[Nicole Wallace]

I want to impress you, Jacob, about the point you just made about what's happening, what's being rolled out city to city. Cobb Traveling circus. I also want to ask you about public opinion, which is moving away from what Trump's doing, not. Not toward it. I'm just taking a quick break first, but we'll all be right back.

Unidentifiable agents in unmarked vehicles with masks are planning to raid Latino communities and say they're targeting violent criminals. As we saw in Los Angeles, a very, very small percentage of the individuals they will target will be violent criminals. Instead, you are likely to see videos of them hauling away mothers and fathers traveling to work or picking up their kids from school. Sometimes they will detain, handcuff and haul away children. They are law abiding individuals who pay taxes and contribute to the communities who feel safe going to work and attending mandatory immigration check ins. In other words, they're following the law.

Molly. I asked Dan Applebaum in the last hour how important it is to deliver this message in the face of what Trump just announced. You know, he's going in. That was Trump's record. We're going in. She said it's essential. The other piece, and it's not the governor shove to point this out, but I will. According to Pew, upwards of 80% of Americans oppose deporting people with jobs. More than 80% of Americans oppose deporting People married to U.S. citizens. And child separation was so unpopular, I think it's literally the only thing Trump put in place and then announced he was reversing on these things have no support among the public.

[Molly Zhang]

And according to the judge in Los Angeles, a lot of this violates the, the Posse Comitidas Act. So it may not even be legal, but they're gonna do it. And I think what's really good about Pritzker, what we see here is he's really clear. He narrates exactly what's happening. He explains it. You know, he shows in a way that I think is really important. And then he is forceful and he says, no, you know, I'm gonna protect my people. The job of these governors, they are now in a moment. And he also talked about how, you know, they pay federal tax dollars and then Donald Trump wants them to beg for FEMA relief. I mean, this is not how any of this is supposed to work. And you'll remember Republicans used to love federalism. This used to be their thing. And in fact, when Biden was president, we saw Texas leadership in Texas do a number of things that were wildly outside the norm.

[Jacob Soboroff]

You asked me about public opinion, whether the tide was turning. And certainly you're right. We saw it during family separation. It was for sure the biggest, if not the only, massive policy reversal of that first administration. And I'm not seeing it every day on such a wide scale. I certainly saw it on no Kings Day. I'm seeing it in our communities with the people protesting, showing up with their video cameras, and they're doing it in all the cities across the country. But in this particular case, Darcy White, who's the teacher of Nori at the Miguel Contreras Learning Complex. That's how I found out about this. She wrote me a message on Instagram, I think, on July 5, after she was deported on July 4, and said, you have to know about this. People have to know and understand about what's happening. And so I went. Before I went to see Nori, I went to see her teacher, who did everything she could on a small scale, which is what I think matters here right now, to help her graduate, even from Guatemala. And we talked a little bit about it. I want to show you that. Here's what the teacher said. What are you hearing from Nori now?

[Nicole Wallace]

She's still very sad, but we just found out on Friday that she's going to be able to re enroll and re enroll as a temporarily relocated student. And she will be allowed to enroll in the Virtual Academy.

[Jacob Soboroff]

So she'll be able to take classes.

[Nicole Wallace]

She'll be able to do her senior year classes from Guatemala online? Yep. And I got the computer for her today.

[Jacob Soboroff]

What does Nori say about her goals for continuing her education from Guatemala?

[Nicole Wallace]

She was so scared that she was behind. She was like, miss, I don't want to be behind.

[Jacob Soboroff]

So she's concerned about getting behind?

[Nicole Wallace]

Yes, she's concerned about being behind. She. She got some awards last year and she did really well in her academics last year. And she doesn't want to be behind and she wants to stay on track and she wants to graduate and she.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Really needs this computer in order to do that.

[Nicole Wallace]

She needs his computer to do that.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Did it ever occur to you that something like this could happen to any of your students?

[Nicole Wallace]

No. No. And it's why when I found this out, I burst into tears.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Are you holding out hope that Nori will be back one day?

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah. I'm not going anywhere. I want her back. I really want her back.

[Jacob Soboroff]

So there's your answer. The Darcy Whites are also all over this country. If there are Norys that are being deported all over the world, there are teachers just like Darcy White. And I'm sure they're watching and they should read more about this story and learn more about Nori, because there will be one if there isn't already in a school in their neighborhood.

[Nicole Wallace]

You're smiling more than I've seen you smile in the last seven months. Is this how you're gonna sort of put one foot in front of the other and cover the second Trump term?

[Jacob Soboroff]

Yeah. That's why I asked you if we could go do this, because we want to show people that there is a way to make a difference right now and there's a way to understand that what they are telling us is not the only way forward. And so I was so inspired by Nori especially, who is sitting there basically just waiting for anything to give. She was still in the same freaking black sweatshirt that she was deported in when I, I mean, she literally had a, needed a new fridge, needed more clothes, little stuff. I've already heard from an immigration attorney today saying if she would like to try to figure out. Anyway, I don't want to give away the details of the case, but people are already reaching out. So there's a QR code on the screen. People should scan it, read the full story that Kay and I wrote together. And there are ways to not only help Nori, but to help other people that are going through this right now, too.

[Nicole Wallace]

Thank you so much for going and doing this reporting.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Thank you. Thanks for having us today and thank.

[Nicole Wallace]

You guys for spending the whole hour with me. I feel like we scanned the perverted to the sublime. After the break. A new ad campaign out of the state of California calling out Donald Trump's attack attempts to rig the midterm elections. We'll show it to you next. California Governor Gavin Newsom is launching an aggressive new ad campaign today in support of his state's ballot initiative to redraw their congressional maps in response to Republican gerrymandering in Texas. The campaign will involve 10 ads across television and digital by the end of this week. Here's just one of them that frames the fight in national terms.

Following the dictator's playbook, Donald Trump has unleashed a blitzkrieg, arresting people without warrants, targeting the free press, attacking universities. Now he's coming directly for our democracy with a scheme to rig the next election. You have the power to stop him. Prop 50, the election rigging Response act, puts our elections back on a level playing field by putting power in the hands of the people. Save democracy in all 50 states. Yes, on 50.

We'll stay on top of that story ahead of the November 4th vote when we come back. But the founding Fathers warned about dictators coming to power in this country. More from my conversation with Ken Burns after a short break. In the words of Donald Trump, quote, maybe we like a dictator, but the threat of a dictator is actually something the founding fathers thought about and considered, according to legendary filmmaker and historian Ken Burns. He is my guest on this week's episode of the Best People podcast. Take a listen.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Everybody at the Constitutional Convention is trying to figure out how not to design for a dictator. You know, Hamilton says, what if somebody rides the hobby horse of popularity and reaps the whirlwind? No man should be above the law. You know, this is like, you go, okay, so this is our founding. This is our complicated story. Not everybody got along, not everybody agreed, not everybody thought that the Norman Rockwell painting was at the end of this long corridor. But it turns out that what came out of it is still the best thing going.

[Nicole Wallace]

Our democracy, whatever else we endure, is, quote, still the best thing going. I really needed that. You can hear the whole thing, the entire conversation with Ken Burns on YouTube by scanning the QR code on your screen. And as always, you can download this week's episode with Ken. Wherever you get your podcasts, I hope you'll listen to this and let me know what you think. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes today. We are grateful.