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- [00:00]
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Legal Analyst
Look, she's right there.
- [00:16]
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She's three minutes away.
- [00:17]
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- [00:35]
Legal Analyst
You do it all.
- [00:36]
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- [01:03]
Legal Analyst
If it comes out that it's true that there are people in leadership positions who are retaliating on those who report problems, who are creating this culture of retribution, then they should be immediately removed from that position.
- [01:21]
Nicole Wallace
It happens to be true. Then those people should be removed. Hi again, Everybody. It's now five o'clock in New York. You don't say. If only we could have that person back. That version of Tulsi Gabbard, a committed defender of whistleblowers. If only we could put back Tulsi Gabbard in the same room with this Tulsi Gabbard, the director of National Intelligence, who now appears to be going about doing precisely what you just heard her rail against. Our msnow colleagues are reporting this afternoon this quote, tulsi Gabbard has sent criminal referrals to the Justice Department related to a former intelligence community inspector general and a whistleblower whose complaint helped trigger the first impeachment of Donald Trump. The criminal referral was first reported by Fox News. A spokesperson for Tulsi Gabbard's office confirmed to msnow that she had sent a criminal referral to the Justice Department, but declined to provide further details. We will address the why in a moment, but first, the why now understand that over the past year, Tulsi Gabbard has been in and and then out and then back in Donald Trump's political doghouse. So it was of note this week when Tulsi Gabbard released documents she insists expose a deep state conspiracy related to Trump's first impeachment Two problems though. One, those documents provide zero evidence of any such direct coordination and two, they include glowing descriptions of the whistleblower provided by his or her colleagues, quote, a star performer who was, quote, very detail oriented, deliberate, methodical and very squared away. So much for that. Her boss appeared to be pleased though. Donald Trump took a break from posting images of himself as Jesus, AKA a doctor and Trump Tower on the moon to advocate for a reversal of his 2019 impeachment. If this chain of events sounds familiar, an embattled Trump intelligence official targeting Donald Trump's political enemies, then maybe you have her mixed up with FBI Director Kash Patel, who chased a week of bad headlines in the aftermath of his taxpayer funded beer guzzling trip to an Olympic hockey locker room with the firing of some 10 FBI employees for their work on the Mar A Lago classified documents case. And those are just two links in a demonstrated now chain of political retribution against Donald Trump's perceived political enemies. Remember the legal pursuit of former FBI Director Jim Comey and New York Attorney General Tish James, the use of mortgage fraud investigations as a cudgel, including but not limited to the targeting of Senator Adam Schiff. The intimidation Just this week, prosecutors sent by U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia Jeanine Pirro made a surprise visit to the Federal Reserve's construction site as Donald Trump applies public pressure on Chairman Jerome Powell and the phony investigation of a non existent conspiracy that includes former officials, people like ex CIA Director John Brennan. As if on cue since we've been on the air this afternoon, Reuters citing two people familiar with the investigation in reporting this, the FBI is right now ramping up that criminal inquiry into John Brennan, preparing to question roughly half a dozen witnesses over the US intelligence assessment that found Russia interfered in the 2016 election. These blatant instances of the weaponization of justice carried out in the name of eliminating such weaponization is where we start the hour. Former acting Assistant Attorney General for National Security Mary McCourt is here. Also joining us, former Assistant Special Agent in charge at the FBI and National Security and intelligence analyst Michael Feinberg's back. And with me at the table, former Democratic Congressman Max Rose. During his tenure in the House, he was the chair of the Homeland Security Subcommittee on Intelligence Counterterrorism overseeing the agencies. Gabbard now ostensibly runs, and I say ostensibly because the country has seen her most recently at the rate of a Georgia election office, sort of the number one political errand of Donald Trump, reversing the stain of humiliation of losing to Joe Biden in 2020 and now she is referring for criminal investigation, something that we know is just a pipeline DOJ will try to indict. And recently they've been failing anyone who's ever sort of been sideways with Donald Trump. But to refer the whistleblower and the IG is next level stuff.
- [06:00]
Michael Feinberg
Next level. Look, this is the price of admission to Donald Trump's cabinet in 2026. First of all, you have to ignore the imperatives, prerogatives, and principal goals of your agency. Remember, she's the Director of National Intelligence. Right. This is the entity that has overseen all of the other intelligence agencies established to prevent another 9, 11 from happening where information intelligence gathering was siloed. But the second price of admission appears to be that you have to embarrass yourself publicly. You have to focus on conspiracies, myths, things that do not matter and do not even exist, all to demonstrate your public fealty to Donald Trump. This is so sad, because at one point, Tulsi Gabbard was one of the loudest voices in the United States of America against reckless wars, against forever wars. And now, at a time where her voice could really be heard in opposition to this reckless engagement in Iran, she has been nowhere to be found except in regards to these conspiracies.
- [07:09]
Nicole Wallace
It's such an interesting point because I used to wonder how Donald Trump could get over being called America's Hitler and then let J.D. vance be on his ticket. He's there because he called him America's Hitler and cultural heroine, and he debases himself by saying, oh, now I will do anything for you, including attacking the leader of my own faith belief system.
- [07:30]
Michael Feinberg
Yeah, believe. All these individuals who at one time opposed Donald Trump very loudly in many instances, just their mere presence around Donald Trump makes him feel even more powerful because they're just a walking, living example of someone that he has conquered. To the extent that they will embarrass themselves, they will subjugate themselves, and they will lie, cheat, it does not matter just to be in his presence. And so certainly I think that's part of the dynamic.
- [08:05]
Nicole Wallace
And what's so interesting about Tulsi Gabbard is she could have inherited the movement because she actually, at least until she went to work for Donald Trump, believed in the things that Mag is now more drawn to the things that Tucker Carlson's talking about.
- [08:15]
Michael Feinberg
Sure, look, I mean, she could have inherited the movement. She could have stayed a Democrat as well. And when you look at some of the things that she believed, and of course, JD Vance was a quiet Democrat as well. He certainly married someone who was a registered Democrat. In each of these instances, what these individuals have done is they have given up on everything that they believe in the pursuit of power and that type of fraudulent activity. The American people are actually waking up to the fact that that's what MAGA is. MAGA is a walking, breathing lie. On the campaign trail, they said we will do something about affordability. Lie. They've completely ignored it. All they've done is give stuff away to the rich and raise energy prices and inflation. They said we're going to oppose war lie. They've invaded more countries than we can, that we can count at this point. This is the most jingoistic, warmonger, esque administration that we have seen certainly since the Bush administration. And at least the Bush administration had the decency to present one lie to us for going into reckless wars. These folks have a new lie each and every day for going to war. So it is not just a bug of this movement, it is a feature.
- [09:41]
Nicole Wallace
So that's an important sort of political predicate for all of this. But the truth of the matter is for two years and three or I guess almost three more years, they are in control of these agencies. And I guess having worked deep inside of the highest levels of both DOJ and the FBI, Mary, I first want to ask you what it means to sort of invert the pyramid on the national security side and take the person who is protecting U.S. national security. This was a person who heard something on a call, referred it to the IG at his agency, and it was handled in terms of what's public facing by the book. These people are now being referred to Trump's doj, where Todd Blanche said this week that we should be, quote, happy that Donald Trump has hishe's up to his elbows in deciding who gets prosecuted and who gets pardoned based on their politics, that these people are not going to be investigated and potentially prosecuted.
- [10:40]
Legal Analyst
The very purpose of whistleblower protection statutes is to protect whistleblowers, Right? And so we're seeing, and the clip you played of Tulsi Gabbard from 10 years ago shows that she originally believed in that. I mean, the whole point is that when you see something that is a matter, and particularly in the national security arena, it has its own separate Whistleblower Protection Act. And when you see something that is a matter of some urgency and that is a threat to national security, that involves intelligence programs, intelligence activities, that is something that that statute protects you on what Tulsa Gabber is trying to conjure up here is something that would take the whistleblower and the inspector general for the intelligence community, Michael Atkinson, somebody I know quite well because we worked together in the U.S. attorney's office in D.C. he's a very, very fine prosecutor. He then worked with me briefly in the National Security Division because he was so talented, John Carlin. And I asked him to come over and join us in the National Security Division. And he went on to be the inspector general of the intelligence community. And what Tulsi government is trying to do here is sort of take this case out of whistleblower protections and create spin a weave of narratives to create some sort of a conspiracy that says that you, Michael Atkinson and the whistleblower and perhaps others who are unnamed, you know, conjured up the entire. The entire complaint. But let's not forget there is a transcript of the call between President Trump, Trump and President Zelensky shortly after Zelensky was elected, where Zelensky talks about the fact that he would like some more javelins, some like some more support to the defense of Ukraine. And the immediate response to that by President Trump is, well, there's something we want from you, too. And that something, of course, was to talk to Rudy Giuliani, talk to the Attorney General, Bill Barr, about launching investigations into people who were at the time Donald Trump's political enemies, and that is Hunter Biden and his father, Joe Biden. So that transcript exists. That call happened. Whatever she wants to conjure about conspiracies is just simply belied by the reality that we all know because we lived it. It's one more inst. In what has now been however many days in. We are 400 or so days into this administration of just trying to recreate history, and we are 10 years out, still recreating history.
- [13:14]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah. I mean, Michael Feinberg, we also, I think, are all guilty of sort of the moving of the Overton window. Right. We've watched them try to prosecute Comey, and grand juries have not let those cases go forward. I think that we know of at least three times the grand jury has refused to indict Tish James. The six members of Congress, not one member of the grand jury, voted to indict them. But that is not where these cases are supposed to die. They're not supposed to get there in the first place, but say this one does and these people end up on trial. Heaven forbid. Two people who might be witness to defend them are actually Tulsi Gabbard and her predecessor, the acting dni, Joseph Maguire. Tulsi Gabbard said this when she voted in 2019 to censure Donald Trump. She described this as a, quote, willful abuse of power. Quote, Donald Trump putting his personal political interests before those of the American people in a manner that undermines the integrity of the US Democratic process. Quote, tulsi Gabbard called on President Donald Trump to acknowledge and admit wrongdoing as outlined in this resolution and apologize to the American people. So she might make a good fact witness for either of these two people and this person might be called as well as a fact witness. This is from September 2019. This is the acting DNI, Joseph McGuire, addressing the actual whistleblower and the complaint made by the whistleblower in sworn testimony before Congress.
- [14:43]
Joseph Maguire
I want to stress that I believe that the whistleblower and the inspector general have acted in good faith throughout. I have every reason to believe that they have done everything by the book and followed the law, respecting the privileged nature of the information and patiently waiting while the executive privilege issues were resolved.
- [15:06]
Nicole Wallace
Again, one of those individuals works for Trump now. The other worked for him at the time.
- [15:13]
Mary McCord
Yeah, I think there's a couple undercurrents that we need to examine in this. The first is nothing that happened during that phone call, as Mary noted, is actually in dispute. The whistleblower did not allegedly say anything that was untrue. At no point did the administration or its defenders in Congress deny its contents. So it's really difficult for me to see what exactly what criminal statute they would even seek an indictment under. Now, we know that will not stop them, but it's just one more piece of evidence of the gradual erosion not just of norms at the Justice Department, but of competency. And the other thing is, like so many other issues with this administration, it's a scandal in its own right, but it's also indicative of a much deeper rot. And that deeper rotation is the evisceration of the inspector general community. They are supposed to be the ones who guard the guards themselves. Many of them have been forced out. Many of their positions have not been refilled except by acting individuals. And now the administration is sending a very clear signal to those that do remain. If you do the right thing, if you report on an issue that harms us politically, we are going to come after you with the full force of the US Government. This is nothing less than an attempt to annihilate the entire oversight mechanism of the executive branch.
- [16:58]
Nicole Wallace
Do you think that is tied to. I mean, I don't think Trump plays one dimensional chess, let alone three dimensional chess. But it is certainly clear in hindsight when you look at the absolute, I think the technical national security term for how they reacted to the six lawmakers is freak out when they said do not follow illegal orders. You could sort of see the tentacles they made that video after the strikes and after the double tap strike in the Caribbean. I mean, do you think what you're talking about, the evisceration of the inspector general is the few that remain and sending a signal to anyone who might dare to do their functions, do their jobs, is tied to something that's happening right now. Michael Feinberg,
- [17:43]
Mary McCord
look, I have made no secret of the fact that I do not believe the president is any sort of master strategist or master tactician. But there are a number of people who, if I'm speaking bluntly, want to unmake the American system and cast aside our ideals. And some of them are very smart and have been spending years planning exactly how they would do that. Project 2025 was not an inert think tank report. It was a battle plan. And they've been carrying it out. And a lot of times the way that they've been carrying it out is by getting rid of anybody who could shine a light on them or otherwise cause them to pause. And I think this is very much of a piece that we've seen across every federal agency where career executives who have integrity are forced out for spurious reasons.
- [18:39]
Nicole Wallace
Right. Just turning, sort of turning everything upside down and shaking out the good and moral people with integrity is a remarkable spectacle. No one's going anywhere. We're going to pull the thread forward and get to that. Reuters reporting as well. Also ahead for us this hour, how Donald Trump's string of failures has injected real political panic among Republicans and optimism, cautious optimism among Democrats, not only looking to take back the House, but now eyeing possible control of the Senate as well. Plus, Donald Trump's massive arch that will make Washington look a little bit more like North Korea because they have one. Veterans groups are fighting against it, but it is now one step closer to actually being built, even as a judge deals a massive blow to Trump's gaudy new White House ballroom. We'll bring you those developments later in the hour. DEADLINE White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
- [19:41]
Legal Analyst
Choose to show up
- [19:46]
Michael Feinberg
with the bold
- [19:47]
Legal Analyst
styling of the Mazda CX30.
- [19:50]
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- [20:07]
Nicole Wallace
Hey, what's your pin?
- [20:08]
Product Reviewer
Mm 2538.
- [20:10]
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- [20:23]
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- [20:54]
Michael Feinberg
but
- [20:55]
Intelligence Analyst
it says in there that the rigor of the analysis in that Intel's computer assessment exceeded that of most other intelligence community assessments. So again, I think this is unfortunately a very sad and tragic example of the continued politicization of the intelligence community, of the national security process. And quite frankly, I'm really shocked that, you know, individuals who are willing to sacrifice their reputations, their credibility, their decency to continue to do Donald Trump's bidding on something that clearly is just politically based on
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Nicole Wallace
that was back in July, Mary, this is something that the White House has been out front of in terms of what we know about it. Carol Ann Levitt went to the podium in the White House briefing room, I think, toward the end of the summer, and accused former President Obama and former Director Brennan of a grand conspiracy. This is after everything that is known, everything that Marco Rubio penned as the chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, which is more scathing than Robert Mueller's volume one of the Mueller report about Russian efforts to interfere in the 2016 election. This is after John Durham spent millions of dollars and longer than Robert Mueller's probe and found that there was no misconduct inside the intelligence agencies. You've now got political errand taking place that, as we said Reuters is reporting this afternoon, has led to this quote, the FBI plans to question half a dozen witnesses in its criminal inquiry into ex CIA director John Brennan over US intelligence assessment that found Russia interfered in the 2016 election to help Donald Trump. The interviews, which have not been previously reported, are expected to include former intelligence officials involved in the 2017 assessment. It will delve into the origins of the Trump Russia inquiry, an issue Trump has long urged that prosecutors pursue. Prosecutors have pursued that and they found nothing.
- [22:59]
Legal Analyst
Yes. Remember the investigate, the investigators? That was the John Durham Special Counsel investigation. Like you said, years of it went on millions of dollars. It resulted in a guilty plea, rightly so, by an FBI lawyer who, you know, made a misrepresentation in an application, and it resulted in some failed attempted prosecutions. And that was. And that is also when we've had the bipartisan congressional committees review everything and also find conclusively that Russia did try to interfere in our elections. So what I am reading in that Reuters report is what we keep seeing when Donald Trump directs his Department of Justice and his FBI to target his enemies, is they know they can't really get to the real goods because there's just no criminal activity related to the launching of that investigation into Russia's attempted interference or its actual interference. No criminal activity there at all. So what do they do? They start combing through testimony to see could we catch somebody possibly saying something that we could then argue was inconsistent with something else false in some way. Take it out of context. And what I'm seeing is that this, in the Reuters reporting is that this investigation is now focusing on some 2023 testimony by John Brennan on Capitol Hill. And I don't know exactly what they're alleging might be false about that, but just the reason I point that out is, you know, they don't.
- [24:33]
Political Commentator
They don't.
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Legal Analyst
They can't do anything to actually attack them when it comes to the actual intelligence community assessment back in 2017, because that has been done over and over and over again. So when you've got a political enemy, you've got to find some other way to go about it. We saw this with respect to Letitia James and with respect to James Comey. One was also about congressional testimony. The other was about applications for, for, you know, financing for housing. Like, look, look, look. Because this is following the person, not a crime, it's following a person and trying to figure out somewhere in their history can we find some criminal activity. And it's going to be, I think, just as much of an uphill battle now for this department to do anything successful with respect to John Brennan as all of their other efforts have been.
- [25:20]
Nicole Wallace
And let me with you, Michael. Come back to your point about competence. There's this in the Reuters story. A prosecution of Brennan based in South Florida could face legal challenges given that Brennan's 2023 testimony took place before a House committee in Washington, D.C. not in Florida. Judges and grand juries in Washington have been resistant to previous efforts to investigate and prosecute Donald Trump's targets. Judge after judge after judge have now pointed in their rulings and decisions in these politically motivated retribution cases that they are just that, politically motivated retribution cases. I don't know other than Comey, if there's anyone that Trump has publicly attacked more often, more publicly than John Brennan.
- [26:07]
Mary McCord
I mean, the Pope seems to be in the running.
- [26:10]
Nicole Wallace
He's in the running now.
- [26:11]
Mary McCord
Yes, but look, I think we. We have to remember the facts of what happened with respect to Russia and with respect to the Trump campaign and with respect to whether there was connectivity is all a matter of public record. There was no conspiracy. This attempt to tie together the intelligence community assessment with the Steele Dossier, with the FBI's various investigations that became Robert Mueller's special counsel office, it has no foundations. The intelligence community assessment was looking at Russian efforts to use largely online tools to sway the American electorate. It was not directed specifically against the Trump campaign as its primary goal. The various investigations that the FBI opened were not based at all on the Steele dossier. The Steele dossier didn't even come into the FBI's position possession until well after the opening of those cases. And there's just. There was a perfect storm of Russian interference and a number of Trump campaign officials who, by the way, almost uniformly pled guilty or were convicted by a jury of their peers for lying about what connectivity there may have been. Like, this is insane. It's one thing to try and rewrite history for ideological reasons when it occurred centuries ago, but they're asking people to not believe things that happened in our own recent lifetimes.
- [28:01]
Nicole Wallace
Well, and speaking of recent events, I mean, it's been, I think, two weeks since the Wall Street Journal reported that Russia was actively aiding Iran in its war against the United States of America. And still no harsh recriminations from Donald Trump about his friend Vladimir Putin.
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Michael Feinberg
Of course Russia's been engaged in war against us, Right? Providing Iran with the targeting information for Iran to attack all of our bases throughout the region. Not only has Donald Trump not mentioned that at all, let's also not forget that the intelligence community said that would happen. So when you start to look at the intelligence community as just a political tool to advance your political interests, you're also diminishing the intelligence community's actual capabilities. They came to the Trump administration and said, this is gonna happen. The Trump administration said, we'd rather you focus on politics, not on election office.
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Nicole Wallace
Don't tell me about this.
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Michael Feinberg
Exactly. Go, go, go look at the 2016 election. Go after my political enemies. I don't want to hear about the fact that our bases in the Middle east are vulnerable. I don't want to hear about the fact that Iran could get targeted information from Russia and there are certain precautions that should be taken before we engage in a rush to war against Iran. I want you to tell me what color underwear Brennan is wearing or whatever else. I mean, that is the ridiculousness of this. Service members are dead today because this administration did not take this seriously enough. And so we can't forget that as we're looking at these ridiculous political efforts.
- [29:46]
Nicole Wallace
It is amazing, it is amazing that there's no, there are no breaks in the system. Right. 13 as you said, men and women have lost their lives and it's still this pedal to the metal on political retribution. Thank you for being here. Thank you for starting us off. Mary McCord and Michael Feinberg, thank you for starting us off this hour. When we come back, they might not be saying it out loud, but there's brand new reporting that indicates Republicans know and they're worried about what some of them are calling Donald Trump's nonsense to be nice and how it is hurting their chances in this year's midterms. It's another reason Democrats, on the other hand, are feeling cautiously optimistic. We'll get to that reporting next. Oh no, my coffee. Bronnie here. New brawny 3 ply is now more absorbent.
- [30:39]
Legal Analyst
Wow.
- [30:39]
Product Reviewer
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- [30:41]
Nicole Wallace
Do you wear plaid?
- [30:42]
Political Analyst
Ronnie?
- [30:43]
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- [30:54]
Legal Analyst
Every small d Democratic muscle that we have is flexing.
- [30:59]
Podcast Promoter
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- [31:17]
Nicole Wallace
There's some brand new reporting today that is really interesting. It is on the record reporting about the panic that has set in for Republicans and their razor thin majority. He's being drowned out by Donald Trump's career low approval ratings, the distractions he seems intent on creating, news cycle after news cycle after news cycle, his inability to stay on message and frankly, it's not clear he even knows what the message is. The desperation is happening though, as we said in real time, hour by hour. Today, Donald Trump is on a plane en route to Las Vegas this is the White House's latest attempt to get him to focus on the economy. But even when he does, voters don't like what he's saying about the economy. And that's just the start. As Politico reports, quote, a sputtering economy, high gas prices, a fight with the pope, and a pair of foreign policy setbacks in Pakistan and Hungary have left many White House allies nearly exasperated as they try to navigate what was always going to be a difficult midterm year. One Republican operative close to the White House says this, quote, everything is made more difficult by the nonsense coming out of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. Our friend and colleague Jonathan Lemire reports this in the Atlantic, quote, in private moments, most Republicans have been saying for months that holding the House is likely beyond their reach, but at least Republicans thought the Senate was safe. That is no longer the case. I want to bring in former senior advisor and spokesperson for the Harris Walls presidential campaign. Adrian Elrod is here. Also joining us, Democratic strategist and Columbia University professor, political analyst Basil Smichel is here as well. Basil, this is such a vibes thing, and we cover a lot of the vibes. And those are very good, too, when you've got Marjorie Taylor Greene and Meghan Kelly saying more harsh and vitriolic things about Donald Trump than anyone on the left. You know, where sort of all that, all the heat is going on on the heat map. But this is, this is on the Record reporting about races and margins.
- [33:16]
Political Analyst
No, that's right. Jonathan's report is fantastic. And it follows other reports that say that Republicans are much more clear than they ever were, that they need to get a Trump agenda passed. But Trump has no interest in helping them do that. And that's been clear to all of for a very long time. I think the Trump agenda, if I were to guess it's just making his friends and family very wealthy, that crony capitalism. And they sense it. Republicans sense that they can't really defend it very well, but they sense it and voters get it. Now we're talking to Zach Walls, who's running for Senate in Iowa. We were talking to him earlier. And the fact that we're talking about Iowa now as being competitive, but the governor's race still and in the Senate race is really important and fascinating because it's building on the movements and the mobilization and the organizing. No Kings ICE and immigration. Right. And it's this acknowledgment by the voters that everything that Trump is doing is not helping them. Consumer price index has gone up 3 points there, energy costs have gone up 11% there. You have a state full of farmers that are being hurt by tariffs and what's happening in Iran and fertilizer prices. What is Trump doing to help them? And no one can really give you a concrete answer on that. And so it's not just voters being affected, but it's the entire Republican establishment that realizes they have nothing to run on.
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Nicole Wallace
Adrienne, There's a thing that seems like it's catching up with Donald Trump. I mean, he has always been immune from the laws of political gravity. He won after saying that on tape that he grabbed women between the legs. And then when all the Republicans went along with it, he was more powerful because he did something clearly abhorrent. They stayed in the coalition and he added power. Same thing after he recognized good people on both sides of Charlottesville and on and on. After January 6, he incited an insurrection. They all ran for their lives. There's no video of anyone walking more slowly if they were a Republican than a Democrat. They all ran. I think Josh Hawley ran the fastest, maybe because he's a good runner, maybe because he was the most scared. I do not know. But the idea that they sort of humiliate themselves by going back under his skirt after every humiliation seems to be catching up with them. When you've now got Marjorie Taylor Greene calling him insane.
- [35:40]
Political Commentator
Yeah, Nicole, it's quite fascinating. I mean, look, I was on Hillary Clinton's campaign in 2016, and I remember when that move started happening, when he started to see Republicans shifting from, oh, this guy's unhinged, he's crazy, he cannot be president. This would be incredibly dangerous for our country. When you started to see that shift from, well, maybe he's more acceptable. When they realized he was inevitably going to win the primary, they started to embrace him. And I remember sitting at Hillary Clinton's headquarters one day and thinking to myself, at some point, these Republicans will regret embracing Trump. They will regret embracing maga. And of course, you perfectly laid out all the things that were unimaginable at the time that have happened. January 6th. Grabbing women by the. You know what? You know so many other things that we don't have time to go into right now because your viewers certainly know, and now it is all coming home to roost. You have a president who, you know, Nicole, half the time I don't even know if he wants Republicans to win in the midterms. I don't even know if he wants J.D. vance or Marco Rubio to be his successor. Part of Me thinks maybe he wants to believe that only he alone can win these elections because everything he's doing, he's self sabotaging. These are self inflicted wounds, getting to fight into a fight with the Pope going into a war that many people don't understand why we're at war. And then Basil also perfectly laid out, you know, so many issues that the American people are facing. We also have to remember he won largely on the fact in 2024 because prices were too high. He's done nothing to address those prices. So all of those factors combined are making it look pretty good for Democrats right now.
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Nicole Wallace
Are you surprised that the issue that the base is turned against him on is the war with Iran, a place where he seems intent on toppling more governments? He talks about it publicly.
- [37:33]
Political Commentator
Adrian yeah, I mean, I am, Nicole. I wasn't sure if the Epstein files, if the constant confusion and chaos around the release of those files or not release of those files was what was going to ultimately break the damage with the MAGA base. But it's actually the war, it feels like that has gone a step too far for a lot of the fervent MAGA supporters who have been with him the entire time. And I think when you look at all the other factors involved not addressing prices adequately, going to war, causing gasoline prices to go up higher as a result, all of those factors together have really been the final straw for the Tucker Carlson's and Megyn Kelly's. But I wasn't sure what would actually break the dam. And it does look like the war in Iran is what has done it.
- [38:22]
Nicole Wallace
With a little pope on top, no one's going anywhere. When we come back, rather than working on fixing any of the things we're talking about, the real problems and anxieties facing Americans, Trump is actually spending his time and energies today focused on his giant, rather tacky ballroom and his massive authoritarian agenda. JASON Arch these are real stories and they're real developments to tell you about. Stay with us. So all this is happening and Donald Trump still wants to build a ballroom and an arch. But today a federal judge ruled again to stop it to temporarily block above ground construction of Donald Trump's massive and gaudy White House ballroom unless he gets authorization from Congress. Judge Richard Leon said the Trump administration has been trying to sidestep his previous ruling by arguing the entire project falls within the safety and security exception in his order. The judge writing today this quote, national security is not a blank check to proceed with otherwise unlawful activity. Meanwhile, among Trump's other bizarre obsessions Distractions worrying Republicans in Congress is the 250 foot arch that he's proposed. It would tower over D.C. s Potomac river and Arlington National Cemetery. Today, his plans were advanced with a unanimous vote, as expected by the seven member Commission of Fine Arts. All of those members were appointed by Donald Trump after he fired all of the previous members. We're back with Adrian and Basil. Basil, I researched the Ark. I'm not really Ark educated. And there is a similar one in North Korea.
- [40:10]
Political Analyst
Yeah. You know, I think the original one was in rome, built in 316 A.D. to the arch of Constantine. Every time it's built, it is built to commemorate victory in war. The only war that I know that Donald Trump might have in mind is the war against his own people, because that's all that we could be talking about here. There is something to be said about the way that he uses social media, the images that he embraces, including the arch. Gavin Newsom rightly called out the absurdity of a lot of what Trump does. But there is something to be said about the iconography that he employs, the dressing like Jesus Christ, the arch, the fact that he changed the name from Department of Defense to Department of War. A lot of that alienates a lot of his former, his supporters. But my fear is that it deepens the intensity of the people that are still with him because it kind of shifts the conversation away from absurdity. Although we still talk about that and think it's appropriate to sort of a political theology. If you listen to Hegseth, he uses the same kind of language, and that's what's concerning. It's not just the fact that he's doing this really silly thing at a cost, an incredible cost to taxpayers that's gonna be massive and gaudy, and there is no real purpose to it. But my fear is that at the end of the day, because he takes so much out of the institutions that teach history and teach reality, that they're gonna be generations from now if this thing gets built, that are gonna say, Trump was great and he won and he is a symbol for our freedom. That's what concerns me, because there is no one pushing back on this foolishness.
- [41:52]
Nicole Wallace
Well, and I think that's where Adrian sort of the political overlay has to be for his people. That might be the case, but this is a moment for any corporation that funded the destruction of the East Wing, which Judge Leon has now called, quote, unlawful twice to say, yeah, maybe not. And that includes the former parent company of MSNBC, Comcast, I hope they would. He's also, at 32%, his brand is toxic. And helping him destroy something precious like the e swing may not be the flex that companies thought it was six months ago.
- [42:23]
Political Commentator
No, that's exactly right. I mean, Nicole, I think we all know that a lot of the reasons why some of these companies did pony up cash, which I cannot even imagine that ever happening in President Biden or President Obama's administration, by the way, but pony cash for this is because, number one, they were worried that he would attack them if they did, if they didn't. And number two, they wanted, some of them wanted something out of the administration, whether it was a merger deal, whether it was, you know, a tax break, whatever it was, they certainly wanted something. This is so unprecedented. But they did it for a reason, because they wanted something from Trump. So it's all just, I look at the, I know that Trump can get away with a lot of things that pretty much nobody else can get away with, but just if President Biden even asked one corporate entity to do something to refurbish maybe the lower press office or maybe invest some capital in the Rose Garden, Republicans would have called for impeachment. And the fact that Donald Trump can get away with this, it just really is a testament to, you know, kind of where we are in his administration and where his voters are. They dismissed this. It doesn't seem to really stick to him. And he can get away with a lot more than a lot of other people can.
- [43:44]
Nicole Wallace
And I think the only thing is, is that changing, right? I mean, I think that has been the case. But again, he's more unpopular than he's ever been. He's underwater on the issues that were once his strengths. Immigration, the economy, inflation, tariffs. This war has a 23% approval rating. So we'll see if that, that remains the case. Adrienne Basil, thank you so much for joining us today on these stories. When we come back, Jimmy Kimmel has spoken to Michelle Obama. We'll show it to you. Pretty remarkable moment, Late night talk show host Jimmy Kimmel is opening up about the importance of speaking up in the time of Trump. On former first lady Michelle Obama's podcast, the comedian said that his job is to hold up a mirror to our country, our reality, and that none of his critics, Donald Trump included, are gonna get in the way of him doing that. Watch.
- [44:39]
Jimmy Kimmel
My job, I've always said, since the very beginning, even when I was on the radio, is to talk about what is going on in people's lives and what is going on in, you know, if you're doing local radio in your town and if you're doing a national television show in your country. And these are things that I take very seriously. And of course, I like to I love telling jokes. I love being funny. I love when the audience laughs. There's nothing that's more exciting to me than that. But well rounded human beings don't behave that way. And to say that, oh, your job is this, it makes me, I bristle at that. Because first of all, don't tell me what my job is exactly. I don't tell you what your job is. My job is whatever I decide. My job is whatever my employer allows me to do.
- [45:34]
Nicole Wallace
The whole conversation's great. Take a listen. One more break for us. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes this evening. We are grateful.
- [45:45]
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