“In the wake of a horrific tragedy”

Summary

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Deadline: White House — “In the Wake of a Horrific Tragedy”

Date: January 9, 2026
Host: Nicolle Wallace (MSNBC NOW)
Featured Guests: Michelle Norris, Alex Tabitt, Michael Feinberg, Myles Taylor, Senator Chris Murphy

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EPISODE OVERVIEW

This episode centers on the aftermath of a shocking and controversial police shooting in Minneapolis, in which an ICE agent fatally shot Renee Nicole Goode, a 37-year-old mother. As the Trump administration frames the killing as a response to “domestic terrorism”—without public evidence—local officials, witnesses, and journalists challenge that narrative, raising pressing questions about federal power, accountability, and the risks posed by a militarized ICE. Nicolle Wallace assembles an on-the-ground team and expert analysts to examine the facts, explore the official response, and consider broader implications for American democracy and civil rights in the Trump administration’s second term.

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MAIN THEMES AND PURPOSE

• Truth Versus Official Narrative: The episode challenges the government’s version of events, contrasting it with visual evidence, eyewitness accounts, and investigative reporting.
• Federal Overreach and Local Exclusion: Discussion on how local law enforcement has been cut out of the investigation, raising questions about transparency and proper process.
• Escalation of ICE Tactics: Exploration of the militarization of ICE under President Trump’s renewed immigration crackdown and loosening of hiring and training standards.
• Political and Social Fallout: Consideration of the local and national response, with a focus on protests, civic action, and warnings from both elected officials and former DHS insiders about creeping autocracy.

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KEY DISCUSSION POINTS AND INSIGHTS

1. Competing Narratives and the Facts

• The shooting is being officially depicted as a justified response to “domestic terrorism,” with DHS Secretary Kristi Noem and the Trump administration asserting, without evidence, that Goode “behaved horribly” and “ran over” an officer ([02:27]).
• The New York Times visual investigation, however, finds that Goode was driving away from the officer when he opened fire and that her car “was not positioned toward him” ([03:08]-[03:55]).
  Quote:
  • “This appears to conflict with allegations that the SUV was ramming or about to ram the officer.” — Michelle Norris ([03:55])
• The officer involved, Jonathan Ross, had prior involvement in a different incident and is painted as someone who should "understand de-escalation" ([12:40]-[13:14]).
• Eyewitness and video evidence also reveals an ICE agent blocking a physician from attending to Goode after the shooting, fueling outrage ([04:38]-[04:52]).

2. On-the-Ground Response: Minneapolis and St. Paul

• Protests have erupted at the Whipple Federal Building (ICE HQ), drawing both peaceful participants and confrontations with officers using tear gas and pepper spray ([07:31]-[09:03], [08:23]). Quote:
  • “The people who got pepper sprayed are not necessarily those who are agitating...we saw a 72 year old couple get pepper sprayed just an hour ago.” — Nicole ([09:03])
• Community efforts in Goode’s neighborhood focus on maintaining calm and de-escalation, learning from the fallout of the George Floyd protests ([10:30]-[12:50]). Quote:
  • “There is a real attempt here to try to make sure that this is peaceful. One of the things you're seeing is the way that Minneapolis has matured since George Floyd was killed just a few blocks from here in 2020.” — Michelle Norris ([11:31])

3. Expert Panel: Law Enforcement, Use of Force, and Civil Rights

• Michael Feinberg, former FBI official, questions the agent’s justification given the evidence:
  Quote:
  • “I've seen enough footage...I genuinely don't understand what the agent or officer could have been thinking when he pulled that trigger.” ([06:16])
  • “It is not domestic terrorism to videotape a law enforcement officer...What is much closer...is government agents refusing to identify themselves, barreling in, swearing and yelling at citizens and shooting them at point blank when there is no imminent threat.” ([15:35]-[16:52])
• Debate over whether the FBI’s control of the investigation is standard procedure, with Feinberg noting it's possible they are investigating civil rights violations, but also cautioning about the administration’s track record in transparency ([17:15]-[18:36]).

4. Personalizing the Tragedy — Renee Nicole Goode

• Goode is described by family as “no activist,” highlighting the indiscriminate reach of ICE enforcement ([18:36]-[20:06]). Quote:
  • “She was a devoted Christian...loved to sing… hosted a podcast… Her six year old son, Michelle, is now an orphan.” — Host/Nicolle Wallace ([19:51])
• Community is mobilizing in new ways; people previously uninvolved in activism are now joining protests and civil disobedience workshops ([20:06]-[21:42]). Quote:
  • “There are so many people who are involved in a new kind of activism in Minneapolis… people who've never shown up for protests...are showing up by the hundreds.” — Michelle Norris ([20:39])

5. ICE Militarization and Political Pressures

• ICE is characterized as the fastest-growing, largest U.S. law enforcement agency, with lowered hiring standards and pressure to increase numbers ([26:14]-[28:00]). Quote:
  • “ICE is now the largest federal law enforcement agency in America... fielding undertrained, under qualified, ideologically motivated federal officers” — Myles Taylor ([26:58])
  • President Trump is accused of giving agents “license to kill” through rhetoric and loose oversight ([27:30]).
• The discussion connects the leadership’s character (President Trump and DHS Sec. Kristi Noem) to agency actions, suggesting autocratic tendencies and deliberate creation of a personal, unaccountable police force ([28:46]-[30:15]).

6. Senate and Congressional Oversight — Reality and Limits

• Senator Chris Murphy (D–CT) denounces what he calls an out-of-control DHS, ignoring not only laws but also the will of Congress ([32:29]-[33:17]): Quote:
  • “Your agency acts as if laws don't matter, as if the election gave you some mandate to violate the Constitution and the laws passed by this Congress.” — Senator Murphy ([32:29])
• He argues that the administration relies on “hate and division” as organizing principles and has sown chaos to distract from self-enrichment at the top ([33:53]-[34:59]).
• Murphy notes the dangerous normalization of violence for political purposes:
  Quote:
  • “They want you to believe that violence is okay, that it is normal, that it is just part of our politics…” ([38:13])
• Discussion of Donald Trump’s continued unpopularity on immigration and the growing resistance—even among some Republicans—to his aggressive tactics ([37:30]-[41:09]).
• Murphy laments the lack of meaningful pushback within the GOP, pointing out that many Republican officials are now “true believers,” not secret dissenters ([43:06]).

7. Wider Historical Context and Warnings

• Myles Taylor and Michael Feinberg compare the incident to historic traumas like Kent State and even the Boston Massacre, invoking the dangers of unchecked government violence ([44:41]-[47:32]). Quote:
  • “This is what people predicted...people would die if these types of policies were implemented. That's not hyperbole. That's what we are seeing now.” — Myles Taylor ([44:41])
  • “Now, 250 years later, we have masked federal agents shooting and killing people who are peacefully protesting…” — Michael Feinberg ([46:06])

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MEMORABLE QUOTES & MOMENTS (with Timestamps)

• Michelle Norris on the policy disconnect:

  • “People in positions of power have already passed judgment...have stood and told you things that are verifiably false, verifiably inaccurate. They have determined the character of a 37 year old mom that they didn't even know.” ([01:45])

• Host, on the administration’s messaging:

  • “The White House has gone to great lengths...to tell everyone, anyone watching, anyone in front of a television not to believe what we see and what we hear, but to believe what they are telling us. It's just the latest attempt at gaslighting from the Oval Office.” ([21:42])

• Senator Murphy, on the motivation for the administration’s chaos:

  • “They run the country in a way that makes you think the biggest threat are people who aren't like you, when in fact, the biggest threat is the people who are running the country.” ([34:20])

• Michael Feinberg, on First Amendment rights:

  • “It is not domestic terrorism to videotape a law enforcement officer...What is much closer...is government agents refusing to identify themselves, barreling in...shooting them at point blank when there is no imminent threat to anyone's life.” ([15:35])

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TIMELINE OF KEY SEGMENTS

• [01:09] — Host sets stage: official narrative vs. emerging truths
• [03:08] — On-air breakdown of NYT video analysis
• [04:38] — Clip of ICE blocking physician aid after shooting
• [06:16] — Michael Feinberg’s law enforcement perspective
• [07:31] — Alex Tabitt and Nicole report from protest outside ICE HQ
• [10:30] — Michelle Norris describes vigil and efforts to maintain peace
• [13:52] — Host plays reporter challenging Sec. Noem at press conference
• [15:35] — Michael Feinberg refutes “domestic terrorism” claims
• [18:36] — Host humanizes victim, Renee Nicole Goode
• [26:14] — Myles Taylor on ICE militarization and lowered standards
• [28:46] — Myles Taylor warns about unaccountable executive power
• [32:29] — Senator Murphy’s Senate hearing critique
• [37:30] — Host and Senator Murphy discuss political and public backlash
• [44:41] — Myles Taylor and Michael Feinberg draw historical parallels

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EPISODE CONCLUSION

The episode ends by grappling with the real-time erosion of civic trust and the normalization of government violence under the Trump administration. The experts warn that what is currently happening is both deeply American (with echoes of past abuses) and deeply dangerous. The challenge is laid at the feet of the listeners and citizens: will the country accept a reality defined by those in power, or stand up for the truths witnessed and documented on the ground?

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Transcript

[Nicole]

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[Host]

Hi everyone, it's 4 o' clock in New York. It's 3pm In Minneapolis, a city on the edge in the wake of a horrific tragedy that has spurred a nationwide battle over the truth of this incident. As the Trump administration seeks to cast the shooting death of 37 year old Renee Nicole good by an ICE agent as a response to what they are calling an act of domestic terrorism, they're doing that without providing a shred of evidence. Minnesota officials say that the FBI has effectively frozen local law enforcement out of the investigation. Here's Minnesota's Governor Tim Walz.

[Michelle Norris]

I think it's clear to everyone as they saw this that it feels now that Minnesota has been taken out of the investigation, it feels very, very difficult that we will get a fair outcome. And I say that only because people in positions of power have already passed judgment from the President to the Vice President to Kristi Noem, have stood and told you things that are verifiably false, verifiably inaccurate. They have determined the character of a 37 year old mom that they didn't even know.

[Host]

As the Governor points out, there are claims that have been made by the Trump administration stand in complete contrast to what we can see with our own eyes, to what eyewitnesses saw, to what available video evidence shows, and to what local officials on the ground there are saying. While Donald Trump told the New York Times in an interview that the victim in the shooting, quote, behaved horribly and, quote, ran him over, end quote. A New York Times visual investigation, investigation by the same paper that interviewed Trump analyzed three different camera angles and showed that Good was driving away from the officer when he opened fire. Here's what that investigation found.

[Michelle Norris]

This is the agent who shoots the driver.

[Nicole]

He walks around the car filming and disappears from view. Other agents pull up and order the driver to exit her vehicle. One of them grabs at the door handle and reaches inside the SUV reverses, then turns right, apparently attempting to leave. At the same time. The agent filming crosses toward the left.

[Michelle Norris]

Of the vehicle and grabs his gun.

[Nicole]

He opens fire on the motorist and.

[Michelle Norris]

Continues shooting as she drives past.

[Nicole]

The moment the agent fires, he is standing here to the left of the SUV and the wheels are pointing to.

[Michelle Norris]

The right, away from the agent.

[Nicole]

This appears to conflict with allegations that.

[Michelle Norris]

The SUV was ramming or about to ram the officer.

[Host]

Two sources familiar with the investigation tell us that the officer in that video who shot Renee Nicole Goode is named Jonathan Ross. He's reportedly an officer who has worked several years on the job. DHS Secretary Kristi Noem told reporters that he had been dragged by a car in a separate incident in June. We're also learning more about events that transpired after the shooting. One video from the scene shows a man who says he's a physician who offers to help and then is blocked by ICE agents from attending to the victim. Watch.

[Nicole]

I'm a physician. Listen, I understand we got EMS coming.

[Michelle Norris]

I get it.

[Host]

Just give us a second.

[Michelle Norris]

We have medics on scene.

[Michael Feinberg]

We have our own medics.

[Nicole]

Where are they?

[Michelle Norris]

Medics, where are they?

[Host]

That incident only adding to the tensions in Minneapolis right now. In neighboring St. Paul, protesters clashed with law enforcement this morning, but the protests have been largely peaceful. Last night, thousands came out to a vigil to honor and remember Renee Nicole Good and some of the protesters still out today. Tell our reporters on the ground that they feel a need to rally around their community right now.

[Michelle Norris]

Why did you want to be here right now?

[Nicole]

I wanted to be here because it's important to show up for your neighbors.

[Host]

And the people around you and just.

[Nicole]

To show them that we're not going.

[Host]

To stand by and let them be taken. I felt just sad that these are the reasons that Minneapolis keeps appearing on the news. The aftermath of the shooting death of a Minneapolis mom named Renee Nicole Goode by ICE is where we start today on the ground in Minneapolis. Joining us, our reporter Alex Tabitt in St. Paul. Also joining us, Minneapolis native and senior contributing editor Michelle Norris. She's about a half a block from the scene. Plus former assistant special agent in charge at the FBI, national security and intelligence analyst Michael Feinberg. Michael, I'm going to start with you again because we are just learning a little bit about the ICE Agent. What are your thoughts?

[Michael Feinberg]

You know, any law enforcement agent is incredibly loathe to second guess another one's decision whether to use force or how to behave in a tactical situation simply because you can't be inside that person's head and know whether they were subjectively in fear for their lives. But I've seen enough footage from enough angles and read enough eyewitness reports that I genuinely don't understand what the agent or officer could have been thinking when he pulled that trigger. The most charitable explanation is that he thought he was going to get run over. But as we saw from that New York Times analysis and his other analyses, such as that done by Bellingcat today, demonstrate the car was not positioned toward him. And second of all, for the point that he was in front of the car, he put himself there during that time.

[Host]

Alex, I see on my screen what you are witnessing, where you are. Want to tell us what's happening?

[Nicole]

So we're here outside the Whipple Building. It is a federal building that is being used as the headquarters for this ICE operation here in Minnesota. And every time a DHS or an ICE vehicle comes in or out of this building, the protesters have been surrounding those vehicles, taunting them, telling them to get out of Minnesota. During those moments when cars enter and exit the building is when we see tensions flare up. It's when we see Border Patrol agents shoot tear gas like you're seeing being shot right now. And when you see detention. So far, we've caught eight detentions on camera since this protest first began at, pardon me, Nicole, at 7:00am this morning. Nicole, I'm gonna grab my palm.

[Host]

I'm gonna ask you to get somewhere safer and a little farther away. If what you're choking on is tear gas, please get yourself to a safe place and confirm with our control room. You're safe.

[Nicole]

We're all good. Thank you.

[Alex Tabitt]

Thank you.

[Host]

You're okay.

[Nicole]

I appreciate it. We're all good.

[Host]

Okay, you want to, you want to keep going and tell me what else has been going on today and who, who that is that's there?

[Nicole]

So, yes, I, I, I'm going. So, yeah, basically there's about a couple dozen protesters that we've seen here right now. It's really thinned out since it started at 7am We've caught eight arrests on.

[Michelle Norris]

Camera, detentions on camera.

[Nicole]

We've seen that the people who gotten pepper sprayed are not necessarily those who are agitating the DHS, the ICE officers. It's also peaceful protesters. We saw a 72 year old couple get pepper sprayed just an hour ago or an hour and a half ago. And there's really a mixed bag of protesters here. Some who are taunting, agitating the Border Patrol and some who are staying in the back and peacefully waving their signs. It's certainly, certainly a mixed bag. But in moments like these, when the Border Patrol rushes forward, when cars are coming in and out of this building, cars that we presume are going to continue this immigration crackdown, which DHS is billing as the largest ever in the Department of Homeland Security history.

[Michelle Norris]

That is.

[Nicole]

When the tensions flair. Nicole, we have seen Greg Bevino here earlier this morning, but he, he has not been in sight in the last few hours. We're unsure if he's out in the middle of an ICE operation or if he's inside of the building, but we'll be sure to keep an eye out for him as well as he's leading.

[Michelle Norris]

Border Patrol's operations here.

[Host]

Nicole, let me bring in Michelle Norris, who is also on the ground for us in Minneapolis. Michelle, what are you seeing where you are?

[Alex Tabitt]

Very different scene than over by the Whipple Building. I'm just around the corner where Renee Nicole Goode lost her life. Portland Avenue is behind me. Oakland Avenue is in front of me. I grew up on Oakland Avenue just a few blocks south of here. And so this neighborhood is very familiar to me. What you're seeing behind me is a much more peaceful gathering. What you heard Tim Wall say yesterday is that Minneapolis has had, unfortunately, experience with this. And that's what you see evidenced behind me very quickly. People cordoned off this area. If you can see behind me, they use trash cans and crates and all kinds of things. But the goal was to create a space, a safe and quiet space where people could come and process their feelings. And that's what hundreds of people are doing right behind me. They're coming with flowers, they're coming with signs, many of them playing off Renee Nicole Goode's name. Good versus evil. She was out here doing good. She was in good trouble, trying to stand up to what felt like an occupation. And it's very solemn and it's very quiet, but people here are very worried as the sun is starting to fall about what could happen. There is a real attempt here to try to make sure that this is peaceful. One of the things you're seeing is the way that Minneapolis has matured since George Floyd was killed just a few blocks from here in 2020. And one of the lessons there is to make sure that they try to de escalate any kind of anger, outward expression of anger. And so you've got clerics that are going to be coming here again tonight. 10,000 people marched last night, probably fewer people here tonight. But what they did is every time things started to look like they were going to go over the top, a group of people coordinated the singing of certain songs that they thought would calm people. And that's just an example of the kind of things that they're doing. There's a real coordinated effort here with emails going out through the city, flyers going out through the city, a real attempt to try to make sure that people remain calm. Because what they think is that if this kicks off in the way that it did after the death of George Floyd, that this will be an excuse to introduce something akin to martial law. And they don't want to give the Trump administration the chance to do that. If I can just say one other thing. When you talk to Mr. Feinberg, he talked about Jonathan Ross, the person who is responsible for this. I talked to the attorney earlier today, Eric Newmark, who represented the defendant in the case that Kristi Noem referenced when Mr. Ross was dragged by a car when he was trying to make an arrest. And the attorney who represented the defendant noted that Ross, of all people, and I'm just going to quote here, said that he of all people, should understand the value of, of de escalating situations. And instead of making a decision to escalate, he made to de escalate. He made the opposite decision, putting officers and the public at risk.

[Host]

Let me come back to that with you, Michael Feinberg. This is one of our colleagues, msnow reporter Josh Einiger, challenging Kristi Noem on some of her assertions. Do we have that control room? We're gonna pull that up. But basically, what our reporter asked Michael Feinberg is how does firing two shots point blank. Oh, here it is. Let me play this for you, Michael.

[Nicole]

Feinberg, you said, Madam Secretary, the officer was following his training. He did follow his training because point blank into a driver's window, is that part of the training? Is that how is self defense?

[Host]

This is an experienced officer who followed his training. And we will continue to let the investigation unfold into the individual and continue.

[Nicole]

To follow the procedures and policies that.

[Host]

Happen in these use of force cases. But let's Remember the events that surrounded what happened yesterday on that tragic situation was that these individuals had followed our officers all day, had harassed them, had blocked them in. They were impeding our law enforcement operations, which is against the.

[Alex Tabitt]

The law.

[Host]

And when they demanded and commanded her to get out of her vehicle, several.

[Alex Tabitt]

Times, she did not.

[Nicole]

But you called her.

[Host]

So we'll continue to allow this process.

[Nicole]

To unfold and recognize that these law.

[Alex Tabitt]

Enforcement officers every single day put their.

[Host]

Lives on the line.

[Nicole]

Of course they go out and do their jobs. Of course. Of course. They called her a domestic terrorist, though without an investigation.

[Host]

This was an act of domestic terrorism.

[Michelle Norris]

There had been no investigation into who she was or what she was about. And yet now you're saying these policies.

[Nicole]

And procedures that follow a use of.

[Host]

Force situation like this are continuing to be put in place. So this is standard operating procedure after every use of force situation, is that.

[Nicole]

We follow these procedures and protocols.

[Alex Tabitt]

This situation is no different.

[Host]

I just want to try to be precise and clear in making sure I understand what she's saying. I mean, she seems to be conflating both law enforcement and a designation of domestic terrorism. And I wonder, Michael Feinberg, what you hear in that incoherent response?

[Michael Feinberg]

I hear somebody who has no idea whatsoever what she is talking about and would better serve her agency by not speaking extemporaneously about things in which she has no experience whatsoever. We have a First Amendment, we have a Bill of Rights. We have a long tradition of liberty in this country. And part of that which I was on the receiving end many times, involves citizens conducting informal oversight of law enforcement operations and at times expressing their displeasure with them. It is not domestic terrorism to videotape a law enforcement officer. It is not domestic terrorism to observe what is going on in your community. It is not domestic terrorism to be concerned about individuals, some non citizens, some citizens by accident at some time, supposedly being grabbed off the street by masked men. That is not domestic terrorism. What is much closer to domestic terrorism is government agents refusing to identify themselves, barreling in, swearing and yelling at citizens and shooting them at point blank when there is no imminent threat to anyone's life or any imminent threat of serious physical injury.

[Host]

I want to stay on that with you. What is, what does it sound like to you when the governor says that it is clear local law enforcement has been essentially cut out of the investigation? Does that sound like an investigation at all?

[Michael Feinberg]

That actually is one of the very few things in this whole scenario which is not causing my pulse to quicken. Okay, we, we don't know what precisely the FBI is investigating with respect to this incident. It is very possible they were attempting or are attempting to investigate a civil rights violation by the officer who fired the shots. I would also not put it past this FBI leadership to be investigating a potential assault on a federal officer charge against the passenger of the deceased driver. We simply don't know. But it is entirely normal for the FBI to refuse to comment and share evidence on certain investigations with other agencies at the local, state and federal level. The only thing that really calls that into question is, is that we know this administration's agencies have played well in the sandbox and talked about ongoing investigations when it suits their political purposes. So, you know, I'm somewhat heartened that they're following the procedure here. I just wish they would consider doing it all the time.

[Host]

Yeah, it's, it's super helpful to know what is normal and what is way outside the lines of normal. Michelle I want to bring this back to the woman who lost her life yesterday. Right. Renee Nicole Goode. This is the AP's report about her life. Goode had just dropped off her six year old son at school Wednesday and was driving home with her current partner when they encountered a group of ICE agents on a snowy street in Minneapolis, where they had moved last year from Kansas City, Missouri. Her ex husband said she was no activist and that he had never known her to participate in a protest of any kind. He described her as a devoted Christian who took part in youth mission trips to Northern Ireland when she was younger. She loved to sing, participating in a chorus in high school and studying vocal performance in college. She studied creative writing at Old Dominion University in Virginia and won a prize in 2020 for one of her works, according to a post on the school's English department Facebook page. She also hosted a podcast with her second husband who died in 2023. Goode had a daughter and her son from her first marriage who are now 15 and 12 years old. Her six year old son was from her second marriage. Her six year old son, Michelle is now an orphan. His father is reported to have died in this piece and others and his mother died yesterday. That is the human toll of something about 20, 26 hours old in our country.

[Alex Tabitt]

It's just heartbreaking to hear that, you know, the details of a life that has been extinguished. You know, an empty seat at a table now a child, three children growing up without their mother. There's a word you used, Nicole, that I want to go back to where they said she wasn't an activist. You know, right now we're seeing that word being weaponized to some degree, that people who are exercising their First Amendment rights to use their voice, to use their feet, to use their presence to protest something is being portrayed as something that is revolutionary or somewhat evil or, you know, the liberal left are doing these awful things. There are so many people who are involved in a new kind of activism in Minneapolis. I mentioned this to you yesterday. People who have never been involved, people who've never shown up for protests, people who've never gone to any kind of training are showing up by the hundreds. A thousand people went to a training last night to learn how to participate in civil disobedience and to be conscientious objectors. So when Kristi Noem talks about people illegally following her, these are people who are learning how to do that peacefully, methodically, and to do it within the confines of the law. I spoke to someone who said they're trying to paint a certain picture of Minneapolis. They're trying to paint a certain picture of the people who are trying to stand up to ice. And we are trying. She's speaking for the group that she represents. We are trying to draw inside the lines to create a very different picture and a very different kind of America.

[Host]

Michelle and Alex, simply wave your arms and we'll come right back to you with any reporting, anything you learn on the ground there. Thank you so much for being there and starting us off today. Michael sticks around with me when we come back. Yesterday's shooting was not the first ICE involved violent incident to occur since Donald Trump has been back in the White House. And that's raising new questions today about how federal agents are screened and how they're hired and how they're trained. Plus we'll talk with Senator Chris Murphy about an out of control agency bucking any congressional oversight and what, if anything, Congress can do about that. And later in the broadcast, even before the federal government chose to shut out local investigators, the White House has gone to great lengths over the last 24 hours to tell everyone, anyone watching, anyone in front of a television not to believe what we see and what we hear, but to believe what they are telling us. It's just the latest attempt at gaslighting from the Oval Office of the White House. We'll get to all that and much more coming up. Don't go anywhere today.

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[Host]

Yesterday's deadly shooting was just the latest in a string of violence that's been committed by ICE agents since Donald Trump's immigration crackdown started. Really since Donald Trump's second term started. The Trace, which is a group that investigates gun violence in America, found that since Trump's immigration crackdown began, There have been 15 shootings during ICE operations. They include the shootings of three people observing or documenting ICE raids, the shootings of five people driving away from traffic stops or evading an enforcement action, and the September 30th raid on a Chicago Chicago apartment building during which half asleep tenants and their children were held at gunpoint. At least four people have been killed and five others have been injured. The Department of Homeland Security has consistently defended agents who have used force, saying that they have acted in self defense. This all comes in a year where DHS and the Trump administration have gone to really embarrassing standards, embarrassing for them for the requirements for employment at ICE in an effort to boost recruitment and eligibility at the agency. The moves include lowering the age from 21 to 18, offering as much as $50,000 as a signing bonus to become an ICE agent. But that hasn't, hasn't done the trick. It hasn't brought in the experience needed. According to POLITICO, just 4 in 10 candidates at the agency had prior law enforcement experience. I want to bring in former DHS Chief of Staff during Donald Trump's first term, Myles Taylor. Michael Feinberg is still here. Now, Miles, the embarrass is that you should have to be more fit than a middle aged mom. And this is the fitness requirement. You have to do 15 pushups, 32 sit ups, and run one and a half miles in 14 minutes. That is not the best of the best. Going after what they described as the, quote, worst of the worst.

[Nicole]

Yeah, it's not SEAL Team Six, Nicole. I mean, I guess you and I are both in. You know, we could be ICE officers today if we want. But there's a couple things here that are problematic. I mean, one certainly is the size. I mean, ICE is now the largest federal law enforcement agency in America. It's bigger than the army of most countries, and it's growing very rapidly. You note that the qualifications have been lowered, the training has been lowered, and as a result, we've got an agency fielding undertrained, under qualified, ideologically motivated federal officers to roam American cities. And they are armed with extraordinary authority from the top. And that's the thing that I think we really have to focus here on with what happened in Minnesota and what's happening everywhere else. Go back to July when Donald Trump melted down because protesters were vandalizing ICE vehicles. And he said these were brand new cars and it was totally disrespectful. And after that, he said he was directing the Secretary of Homeland Security to give, quote, total authorization to use, quote, whatever means necessary to go after these protesters. Those are the words from the President. And in the wake of what happened yesterday, Nicole, to a lot of Americans, this looks like the President has given them the license to kill. And the way they are defending those officers and defending this incident and turning it on the victim and absurdly trying to characterize it as domestic terrorists shows that they are giving full license to do whatever means necessary, these agents determine is appropriate in any circumstance. This is precisely the type of thing the founders feared is a personal police force accountable only to the President.

[Host]

You were the chief of Staff at DHS in Donald Trump's first term. For General John Kelly, who became.

[Nicole]

A.

[Host]

Harsh critic of Donald Trump's, warning the country ahead of last year's election of just what Donald Trump would do if reelected and agreeing with other top generals that he was, quote, autocratic, met sort of the technical definitions of an autocrat. Krissi Noem is a different cat. She wrote in her own book about an act that most people view as sadistic and cruel, shooting her puppy in the face. What is it? How, how important is it or is it important the character of the person that leads this agency?

[Nicole]

It's crucially important. I mean let's, let's start with the President there. What John Kelly warned about has only come into sharper relief today. Asked by the New York Times if Donald Trump thinks there are limits to his powers, he responded, and I'm barely paraphrasing, he said, there's one thing, my own morality, my own mind, it's the only thing that can stop me. You cannot hear that and think anything other than John Kelly was right. That is the mind of a fascist. And who does a fascist hire to work under him? He hires like minded people. Now we saw an ICE officer fire shots yesterday that killed an American citizen. And today instead of showing contrition or even caution, the White House and the Secretary of DHS continued to fire the gun. They continued to fire the gun by calling this domestic terrorism and in doing so creating a secondary public safety nightmare. I'll tell you this, Nicole, like Michael, I've responded to dozens of terrorist attacks. I've advised Donald Trump on the response to terrorist attacks. Hell, I co wrote his counterterrorism strategy. And this was a woman in a Honda with stuffed animals in her glove box trying to leave a volatile scene. But now by calling it domestic terrorism, Kristi Noem is creating the pretext for a further crackdown on the political opposition. That is scary, that is dystopian. And it tells you everything you need to know about the character of the people who are now running these agencies.

[Host]

Myles, I need you and Michael to stay with us for the hour. When we come back, we'll be joined by Senator Chris Murphy on what Democrats can do about everything we've been discussing and if they have the ability to rein in, in any way, an agency seeming to grow more emboldened by the day. Quick break, we'll be back with that.

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[Host]

As a result of Donald Trump's domestic spending desires bill, a whopping $150 billion has gone to the agency we've been discussing, the one carrying out his immigration enforcement agenda, the mass deportation agenda that includes targeting, detaining and deporting people, making it by far the most well funded law enforcement agency in the country. Our next guest, Senator Chris Murphy, has sounded the alarm. He's done so for months now about how Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem is running the department. Take a listen.

[Michelle Norris]

I say this with seriousness and respect, but your department is out of control. You are spending like you don't have a budget. You're on the verge of running out of money for the fiscal year. You are illegally refusing to spend funds that have been authorized by this Congress and appropriated by this committee. You are ignoring the immigration laws of this nation, implementing a brand new immigration system that you have invented that has little relation to the statutes that you are required that you are commanded to follow as spelled out in your oath of office. Your agency acts as if laws don't matter, as if the election gave you some mandate to violate the Constitution and the laws passed by this Congress. It did not give you that mandate. You act as if your disagreement with the law or even the public's disagreement with the law is relevant and gives you the ability to create your own law. It does not give you that ability.

[Host]

I want to bring in Democratic Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut. Senator, we want to talk to you on any news cycle, but particularly this one. Thank you for being here. I wonder if you have any insight into whether or not this even registers for them. They've gone into spin mode, seemingly in more coordinated fashion than they've answered any questions about Venezuela. I wonder if it is your sense or you have any insight into whether or not there's any internal reflection or audit happening inside dhs.

[Michelle Norris]

I don't have insights, but I have common sense. And my common sense tells me that the organizing principles of this administration is hate and division, hatred of people who are fleeing persecution and torture, destitution to come to this country, an effort to try to sow division as a means of distracting us from the kleptocracy, the stealing that's happening in this government. I mean, this is kind of boilerplate 101 activity for a group of thieves who's trying to convert a democracy to autocracy. They run the country in a way that makes you think the biggest threat are people who aren't like you, when in fact, the biggest threat is the people who are running the country. So, no, I think that they are celebrating the fact that this country is once again roiled in turmoil over a conflict on immigration. Well, they just continue the business every single day of stealing from us, getting rich. Donald Trump, Trump, his family and his friends off of their access to power in the White House.

[Host]

The. The mass deportations are sometimes covered as a thing they told us they were going to do, but this is not what they told us they were going to do. And they have constantly moved the Overton window. They were going to go after the worst of the worst, people here illegally who had committed crimes. Then they made being here without status a crime, which it never had been. Then they were aggressive with reporters covering the pursuit of people who hadn't committed any crimes, were simply bearing witness. And now they have shot and killed a mother of three who was reportedly warning people on the street about ICE activity there. What is your sense of what happens next?

[Michelle Norris]

So you are right that they, you know, they made an advertisement during the campaign that they were going to come in, clean up a broken immigration system. And of course, a lot of people of good faith in this country voted for Donald Trump because they didn't like the fact that on some days there were close to 10,000 people who were crossing the border. They do want people in this country do want there to be order at the border. Nobody wants this. Nobody wants American citizens being shot at. Nobody wants the inhumanity involved in these roundups of people who are here without documentation. Listen, there are a lot of different categories of immigrants, and a lot of that gets lost in. In this conversation. One of the things you should know is that many of the people that they are rounding up. I don't know if it's most, but it is. Many are people who are legitimately here in the United States who came across the border to apply for asylum, who are in the process of applying for asylum, probably have a case that would win because if they went back home, they would be killed or they would be met with violence, and they are being treated as criminals. They are being rounded up on our streets and. And sent back home even though they are actually complying with the law. Yes, there is a subcategory of undocumented immigrants who don't have permission to be here, who aren't in that process. But a lot of the folks that you were seeing these raids target are folks who have. Who have a legal right to be in the United States. And I think that is what has crossed a threshold for a lot of Americans that, you know, they did want folks who were dangerous to be rounded up from our streets, sent back to the country that they originated from. They did not want people who were here peacefully. They did not want people who were here legally ripped away from their families, thrown into inhumane conditions, and a broad normalization of violence that ends up bringing American citizens into the mix as well.

[Host]

So you've got an immigration policy that is exactly as you describe it. It's underwater in terms of approval. For Donald Trump, it's the most unpopular. He's been on the top topic of immigration with the most money spent. He's literally oriented his entire government around this thing that is now almost as unpopular as some of his economic policies. The military being inside Venezuela for that operation has 70% of all Americans opposed to it. What does it say to you, as the person who's been looking around the corners most clairvoyantly, that they are aggressively pursuing issues and policies where 50, 60, 70% of the public is opposed?

[Michelle Norris]

Yeah. So it makes me think, you know, a handful of things. First, yes, let's just confirm that what they are doing is wildly unpopular. The American public are looking at, you know, the actions that the White House is consumed by every single day. These roundups of peaceful immigrants, rationalizing the shooting of American citizens and the micromanaging of the Venezuelan economy and government. And they say, what the hell does this have to do with my life? How is that going to improve my. My life? How is that going to lower my costs? But as their agenda becomes more and more unpopular, they then become more and more dependent on trying to rig our democracy and rig the next election. Because nobody is going to vote these guys back in if they are consumed with an inhumane immigration policy and the micromanagement of Venezuela. And so that's why you got to connect the dots here. What they are trying to do is rationalize violence. Part of the reason that Donald Trump rewrote the narrative on January 6 yesterday, part of the reason they rushed to call this person in Minneapolis a domestic terrorist, is they want you to believe that violence is okay, that it is normal, that it is just part of our politics, because they are thinking that they might need violence, the threat of it, or actual violence in order to stay in power. Because nobody's going to elect these guys next November or three years from now based upon this wildly unpopular agenda.

[Host]

The Epstein vials is one of the issues that they are underwater in. It's one of the keys through which his own supporters unlocked their first big reservoir of doubt and disapproval for Donald Trump in the ten year adventure we've been on, those of us covering him and those of you running against him and opposing him and his party, I wonder how you see this political moment.

[Michelle Norris]

Well, I do think that you are seeing signs of his base scratching their heads and wondering if this guy, the head of their cult, their savior, their leader, is a fraud. And you certainly saw that in the conversation around the Epstein files. I think Venezuela will be one of those moments as well. I mean, a lot of folks signed up for, for the Trump project because he did appear to be somebody who understood the disaster of Iraq and Afghanistan and promised to never again get the United States involved in one of these overseas confrontations because he was going to focus on America, not focus on running other countries. Now he's dragging us into another conflict that seems very reminiscent that echoes of Iraq and Afghanistan. And I don't think it's coincidental that you see more Republicans in Congress starting to cross him and very, very strong, small numbers. But it's not insignificant that two different resolutions have now passed the House with Republican votes. Today we passed a war powers resolution on Venezuela with Republican votes. That I think is a sign that the whole coalition is starting to fray.

[Host]

Do you think it's, I mean, is it too late? Do you think that. And I think a lot of people are starting their resolutions, are dusting off running shoes and going running, and everyone knows how that first run of the year feels. Can they get back in shape politically? I mean, can they function as a party in Congress after acquiescing since the Access Hollywood tape came out. Really? And all of his lawlessness and all of his, as you said, grifting and the taking of the jet and the refusal to ever say or do anything, are they still capable of opposing his excesses and lawlessness?

[Michelle Norris]

Well, the, the majorities they have in the Senate and the House are very small. So I guess the silver lining is that it doesn't take a majority of Republicans to screw up his agenda. The essential problem, though, is that there's not a lot left that Trump wants to do legislatively. Having gotten the big, beautiful bill done, he now just wants to steal from us. He now just wants to get away with his corruption. That requires, requires sort of an active bent of Congress. We've got to actually pass legislation to stop him that requires not a handful of Republicans, but a big number of Republicans. So, no, right now it doesn't appear that there's enough of them to do the proactive work necessary to stand in the way of his grift.

[Host]

Let me just ask you one last question. You've been so generous with your time. What is the off camera conversation among Democrats and Republicans out there about what the heck is going on at ice? That this is a reflexive defense and smearing of the victim, that there's no, there's no moment to say it's tragic that anyone lost their life. I mean, what, what are people saying about both this tragic shooting yesterday and the incredible unpopularity of what Trump is talking about being in Venezuela for, quote, a very long time and to, quote, Donald Trump again being there, quote, for the.

[Michelle Norris]

Well, listen, I think you sort of saw today, as I mentioned, Republicans voting with Democrats on this question of Venezuela. So behind the scenes, there are certainly Republicans who are speaking up on the question of Venezuela. Not as much on the issue of immigration, frankly. I think Republicans long ago, even if they personally opposed him on that issue, just know that you kind of have to keep your mouth shut on Donald Trump's hatred of immigrants if you want to be a Republican today. And I just, you know, I want to give you the bad news. There are not as many of these quiet conversations where Republicans are saying behind the scenes how much they hate this guy. As you'd think, frankly, most Republicans that have been elected in the last 10 years were elected because they are sycophants to Donald Trump. And so we increasingly have a big portion, the majority of the House and a big portion of the Senate who are true believers in Donald Trump and his agenda and are not whispering things behind his back about how they secretly oppose him.

[Host]

I guess that makes our politics even clearer heading into next November. Senator, on any day, but especially today, thank you for making so much time to talk to us. We're grateful.

[Michelle Norris]

Thanks. Thanks.

[Host]

Nicole, quick break. We'll be back with Miles and Michael on the other side. We're back with Michael and Miles. Miles, what does it say to you? And I guess that's an interesting insight from Senator Murphy there, that the MAGA takeover is so complete that there's no one expressing the kind of discomfort with what's happening that you would have heard when you were at the agency.

[Nicole]

Yeah, Yeah, I think it does. I mean, this whole incident, Nicole, the past 24 hours has exemplified almost everything we have been saying about what is happening in a second Donald Trump administration, from the instability and the autocratic tendencies of the man at the top to the fact that he is surrounded by yes men and loyalists, to the fact that he has largely infected the party with his brand of governance and excised out all of the rational people and Republicans with conscience. And this is the end result. I mean, we're seeing that. I mean, this is what people predicted like you would happen, is people would die if these types of policies were implemented. That's not hyperbole. That's what we are seeing now. And I think in a lot of ways, Nicole, it has the hallmarks, this incident of Kent State in 1970, when four unarmed student protesters were shot and killed by security forces, which was a moment that underscored the corruption of the Nixon administration. Yet this is vastly worse. What we are grappling with. And, you know, based on what we talked about earlier, based on what Senator Murphy said, unfortunately, this is the beginning because they are systematizing this type of repression with the agency that they are building under Donald Trump at ice.

[Host]

Michael, do you see it that way, as worse than Kent State?

[Michael Feinberg]

I do. The analogy I thought of yesterday as this was happening goes a bit further back, which is, you know, little over 250 years ago. Part of what kicked off the American Revolution was the residual distaste and anger of the Boston Massacre, when a group of British redcoats senselessly fired on a group that was peacefully protesting the British government, killing many. Now, 250 years later, we have masked federal agents shooting and killing people who are peacefully protesting, which underscores something, Nicole, that you and I and many of your other guests have talked about over the past few months, which is this administration and the people who are raising their hand to join it really have no conception whatsoever of what America is about or what the ideals are that our founders enshrined in the Constitution and before then, the Declaration of Independence. This is a failure of so many things in our culture, but it's also really a failure of civic pride, civic education and civic culture.

[Host]

Yeah. And to pull it forward, it's over to you, America. Right. Is this who you want to be? Michael Feinberg, Miles Taylor, thank you so much for this conversation on this day. After the break, what happens? What happens to the country, what happens to the rest of us when a White House, any White House, tells the country that what we can see with our own eyes, what we've witnessed, what we've heard, what we've watched, what people have smelled and seen and filmed is not what it looks like? We'll have that conversation next.

[Michael Feinberg]

I like things my way, my coffee, my schedule and my treatment. So I talked to my doctor about self injecting with the Vivgard Hytrulo pre filled syringe, which contains fgar, Tigamide Alpha and Hyaluronidase qvfc. It's injected under your skin subcutaneously. It means I can inject in my space on my time. It's my treatment, my way. Visit vivgardmyway.com that's V-Y-V-G-A-R-T myway.com and talk to your doctor about Vivgard Hytrulo, brought to you by Argenics.